Andy Burnham: The Laura Kuenssberg Interview — BBC Panorama

[0:00] Prime Minister, your springboard to power was being a very popular mayor here in Manchester, [0:05] but now you represent all of us in the UK and all of us around the world at a time of huge turmoil. [0:11] The UK's biggest ally is Donald Trump. How was your first call with him? [0:15] It was a good call. It was a warm call, lasted for 15 minutes or so. It got us off to a good start [0:27] and obviously it's a relationship that you take extremely seriously. I need to build a way of [0:36] working with the President that works for him but works for us too and I'll always be clear about [0:43] where I think Britain's interest lies. I'm not going to go into this and not be clear about that, [0:50] but I think it's always important. I'm somebody who tries to work with people, make that connection [0:55] with people. I think we made an initial connection and obviously we'll see where we go from here. [1:01] Do you think that you can trust Donald Trump? Well, I've had one phone call and I always [1:09] treat people as I find them and it was a good exchange. It was, as I said before, it was a warm [1:15] exchange. So I am that kind of politician. I always will see, judge people as I find them. I've lived my [1:24] whole life by that and I will continue to live my life by that. Sometimes, you know, you get an [1:31] impression of somebody from media. I will judge as I find and I found him to be really warm on Monday [1:42] but obviously, you know, we will continue to build the relationship as we go forward. [1:46] But as things stand, you're not sure. So you're saying you'll feel your way. You're not sure at this [1:51] stage that you can place your trust in him as a fellow. It's a changing world, isn't it? And you just [1:56] have to obviously call things as they develop. And I can't at any point say that I won't take a [2:04] different opinion from him, that I will need to voice a different opinion that is right for Britain [2:10] and I will do that. So you'd be willing to call Donald Trump out if you think that's the right thing? [2:16] Of course. I mean, you've got to go into this. All leaders have to do that. You have to defend [2:23] your own national interest before anything else. That's what you're required to do if you're to do [2:31] this job properly. I will always put Britain's interests first. [2:34] And when you look at government spending, the cost of sickness and disability benefits [2:40] for working age people is now almost as much as the defence budget. Are there people claiming benefits [2:46] who, in your view, don't need them? Well, I wouldn't necessarily go straight to blaming [2:54] those people because, I mean, that is kind of implicit in what you are saying. What I would say [3:01] is that there are people in the benefit system, young people in their twenties, who have been, [3:08] I would say, quite seriously let down because the support wasn't there for them when it should [3:14] have been there. And that may be the cause, and I'm not suggesting you blame anyone, but the outcome [3:19] for many people watching this is that they believe there are lots of people who are claiming benefits, [3:24] who don't necessarily need them. They could be making other choices. So I suppose my specific [3:29] question to you is, do you think people, there are people in this country who claim benefits, [3:34] who don't need them, who could be making other choices for themselves? [3:38] I'm certain, to answer your question, I am certain that there are people out there who, [3:43] with the right support, can go into work. But I stress that point, the right support. [3:49] They often don't get given the right support. [3:51] Does your plan for welfare though currently include reducing benefits from anyone who currently receives [3:57] them or removing them from anyone who currently receives them? Because there'll be some people [4:03] watching this who think there are too many people on benefits who play the system. There'll be other [4:08] people watching who might feel really anxious that benefits they rely on will be taken away from them. [4:13] It's about changing the nature of the support and making some of the support conditional upon people [4:20] taking opportunities that are presented. So you might increase the conditions required to receive benefits. [4:25] I think it's a good thing that the government has given guarantees of opportunities for young people. [4:31] And I think we need to continue down that approach. The thing I'm just pushing back on is this idea [4:37] that we go to a kind of crude approach, crude cuts to benefits to get the welfare bill down. [4:42] Often that just pushes people into even more crisis and then even more public spending in another part of the system. [4:49] You have this week doled out quite a lot of things that you hope people will like. [4:54] People may well like them capping bus fares, also promising to cut taxes on pubs and take VAT off electricity. [5:01] But the country's problems and the country's debts are massive. There's defence we've discussed. [5:08] You want finally to fix social care. We know you care passionately about that. [5:12] Will you commit to creating a new social care system before the next election? [5:18] I will go as quickly as I can on the reform of social care. [5:24] Well, it's not because a whole new system, which is what you asked, takes time. [5:31] I think there are major changes you can make before the next election. [5:36] People have long stays in hospital, which never should have happened in the first place. [5:40] And then they end up fit to go home, but unable to be discharged because the social care isn't there. [5:47] This costs the NHS billions of pounds and we will never get the NHS back to good waiting time standards until we fix social care. [5:56] And that's the point, though, isn't it? [5:57] This is something actually in interviews. You and I have discussed this for 20 years. [6:00] There have been proposals on the table, very similar proposals being put on the table time after time after time after time. [6:07] This is about political will, is it not? [6:09] Yes. [6:09] And it's about being willing to put money onto it. [6:12] Yes. [6:12] So you don't, it might be suggested, need to wait for new proposals. [6:16] This is about whether or not you as a new Prime Minister want to commit to it, want to commit taxpayers' money to it, [6:22] want to commit political energy to it. [6:24] And you might not have time. [6:26] Whatever political capital I have, I will put in to fixing broken social care. [6:32] And I would not want to leave office without having brought in the substantial change, [6:37] the new system of social care that you described. [6:39] I can't put a timeline on it right here, right now. [6:42] But I know, actually, not just for the needs of the people who need social care support and work within that system. [6:50] If we don't do it, the NHS will collapse under the weight of trying to care for people who've [6:57] really not really needed to end up in the NHS system. [7:01] And the reason that politicians have often shied away from it, you know, is because of the money. [7:06] And the price tags in this country for lots of big things are huge. [7:12] And lots of things that you care about are expensive and costly. [7:16] But we're paying for social care at the moment. [7:18] Should the wealthy in this country get ready to pay more tax in Burnham's Britain? [7:22] You've even got Gary Lineker, who you did an interview with the other day, [7:25] saying he and a few of his rich pals should pay more. [7:28] Maybe on their property, should the wealthy be ready to pay more tax on their assets and their properties? [7:35] I'm four days in. [7:36] I mean, you're asking me now to write, you know, the next budget or, you know, the next manifesto. [7:42] Well, I have a manifesto and I'm serious about sticking to the manifesto. [7:47] But you said there was room for manoeuvre on tax. [7:50] And I'm asking you because you've often argued very clearly that there should be more tax, [7:56] whether on property or land. [7:59] You're interested passionately in fixing social care, which is a very costly thing to do. [8:04] We know the country's debts are enormous. [8:06] The demands on defence are enormous. [8:08] So there's lots of economists that would look at that and say, [8:11] you've got to find money from somewhere. [8:13] So I'll ask again, should Gary Lineker and his wealthy friends be ready to pay more tax? [8:18] Because you said before, maybe they will have to pay a little more. [8:22] Well, let me answer it this way. [8:24] You know, there are people here in Greater Manchester who pay a much higher council tax [8:28] than people living in much larger homes in London. [8:32] So the Chancellor before, Rachel Reeves, was right to start to reform council tax, [8:38] to create some fairness there in relation to people in homes that are of much greater value, [8:44] who haven't seen their council tax go up over the years because of the failure to revalue the banding. [8:50] So, you know, that's an example of something that I think was right. [8:53] So you would look at reforming the council tax system. [8:56] But I am also saying to you that we need to honour the manifesto upon which Labour was elected. [9:03] And if I was to bring forward any changes, obviously people would rightly say, [9:08] well, is this consistent with that manifesto? [9:11] So, you know, there are big decisions ahead. [9:14] You are right about that. [9:15] You know, I need to be very prudent when it comes to the public finances. [9:21] I will stick to the fiscal rules. [9:24] When it gets to difficult decisions, the public in the last couple of decades [9:30] have in many cases felt that politicians haven't listened to them when it comes to decisions about immigration. [9:37] Under the current government plans, the suggestion is that people in this country legally, [9:43] migrants might have to wait 10 years or perhaps more before they are allowed to stay. [9:50] Will you carry on with that plan? Is that the right approach? [9:53] Well, that proposal has been under consultation. [9:56] And what's your view as the new Prime Minister? [9:58] Well, I come in and I am listening to people's views and will come to a fair resolution. [10:05] The point being, though, I think the worry that people have is the feeling that it's out of control [10:11] and that we don't have a grip as a country and therefore we don't have the right procedures. [10:18] So you might look again, though, you are not persuaded that that's the right plan, [10:23] because people might be worried about that. [10:25] Going to look at what's been said during the consultation, I am not somebody who, if you like, [10:31] doesn't recognise the public call for firmer control of the immigration system. [10:36] And I actually heard this from people, again, in my constituency. [10:42] And I mentioned social care before and I see people contributing to our society by working in social [10:49] care who've in many cases, you know, come from around the world to work there or work in the NHS. [10:55] I don't think people actually say that that is something that we don't want. [11:01] We want people when they're here and making a contribution to be able to be, if you like, supported. [11:08] But you said clearly you're not yet persuaded that that is the right way to go so that people will be interested to hear that. [11:14] I think it's fair enough for me to say four days into the job where there has been discussions going on that, [11:22] you know, I kind of come in, look at the situation and say, right, let me see what people are saying. [11:27] Let me see the balance of the arguments. And I think people would expect me to bring a new pair of eyes [11:32] to these issues and find where the fairness is and the right point of balance. [11:37] And that's why I have put a pause on the early release scheme. [11:40] It's why the review I've initiated is real. [11:44] And, you know, if changes are needed, I will make them. [11:47] And that's the approach I'm taking. [11:49] I point to that issue just because I think that's a fair way to go when I've just come into the role. [11:55] One of the things that is also on your desk is a conflict on the edge of our continent. [12:00] The Ukraine war rages on. [12:04] Would you take a call from Vladimir Putin? [12:06] I would have to know the circumstances in which that was being requested. [12:15] So it's hard to answer that question directly. [12:20] I would obviously want to first and foremost take my lead from the person that I would want to hear from, [12:30] who would be President Zelensky, who will be coming here. [12:35] I look forward to welcoming him. [12:37] Again, I pay tribute to the former prime minister who gave him huge personal support. [12:43] He will get exactly the same from me. [12:46] I would do nothing, absolutely nothing, to undermine him in the conflict in which he is in. [12:54] You know, my support for Ukraine is unwavering. [12:58] It is 100% and I will do what in Ukraine people think is the right thing that they need. [13:07] They will have in me a loyal support and I would do nothing that cuts across that position. [13:14] You are very, very busy now as prime minister and our time is almost up. [13:18] But you say you coming to power will be the biggest change this country has seen in four decades. [13:24] Thing is, 25,000 people voted for you in Makerfield. [13:28] The 48 million people in the electorate in this country [13:30] haven't had a chance to have a say on any of your plans. [13:34] Do you rule out having a general election before 2029? [13:37] There is no early general election. And the thing I would say to you is 20 [13:44] plus, how many million people you just mentioned, voted for a manifesto. [13:48] We're in a parliamentary democracy. So that is what people voted for. [13:51] And I've got the support of colleagues in parliament. [13:54] And it's a parliamentary democracy that we're in. [13:56] Rule it out? [13:57] Well, I'm going to rule it out. [13:59] Yeah, there's no early general election. I don't think people want it. [14:02] You know, well, the opinion polls might say there's some people do, some people don't. [14:07] But the thing is, I just think what I most need to do is get Britain focused on getting the country [14:14] back where it should be, getting it working. [14:17] And I do want to be serious about this point, a new politics. [14:21] We've got to bring back some hope in people's lives. [14:24] I'm all about bringing back that hope, taking pressure off their shoulders, [14:29] as I've done this week or made a start this week. [14:31] But I know there's so much more to do. [14:33] But I don't think we get there by going back into another sort of divisive process. [14:39] Let's all face forward together and get this country working again. [14:43] Prime Minister, thank you very much for your time today. [14:45] Have a great day. [14:53] Thank you. [14:53] �무준 [14:56] Stand now. [14:57] Add this country working again. [14:59] Take those going back in a while. [15:00] Now let's move on. [15:03] I'll spend a few minutes for this period. [15:05] Please do. [15:06] Like the people you have ready for this period. [15:07] First, you're ready to be ready for a poll. [15:08] So you'll watch for questions? [15:10] Phase moreover.