'A RESOUNDING victory for China' Watch MS NOW's coverage of the Trump-Xi summit

[0:00] Joining us live from Beijing is MSNOW White House reporter Laura Barone-Lopez. [0:05] Laura, good morning. Thanks so much for joining us today from Beijing. [0:09] The president seems to be using his flattery to build his relationship with Xi, [0:14] even going so far to call him a friend. This is a fairly stark departure from [0:19] the contentious trade war that was going on last year. [0:22] What is the reaction to that tactic in Beijing so far? [0:25] That's right. Well, right now, look, Chinese President Xi Jinping gave President Trump [0:35] a big welcome, a ceremonial welcome with a military band, which the Chinese know that [0:42] President Trump likes. He loves to see the pageantry and the ceremony. They had a 21-gun salute as well, [0:50] and this was something that, as you just played, President Trump reacted fondly to, [0:55] calling Xi Jinping a friend. And as you noted, Jackie, it's a stark departure from last year [1:01] when there was the trade war and the tariff battles, which ended in a truce of sorts last fall. [1:09] And the two sides are trying to keep that truce going. It's also a departure from Trump's first [1:14] administration when he and his administration that first time around talked about China as a big [1:22] geopolitical foe and someone that they needed to confront and challenge. And now they view it more [1:29] as a potential economic partner. And you're seeing that with the president bringing these U.S. [1:34] businesses alongside him. And in some of the readouts we just got from a White House official on the [1:39] meeting. They did mention that those U.S. executives, CEOs, took part in some of the meeting, [1:45] the bilateral meeting between the two leaders today. But ultimately what overshadowed this meeting [1:53] was essentially the tale of two straits. For China, the Taiwan Strait. For the U.S., [2:00] the Strait of Hormuz, Jackie. Yeah, Laura, actually, let's stay a little bit [2:04] on the Taiwan of it all. Trump has been notably less strong on the U.S.-Taiwan relationship than [2:11] previous presidents. I'm not even sure if he's outright supported Taiwanese independence. [2:15] Are there any concerns that he sees this issue as the negotiating chip when it comes to getting [2:23] China to ultimately put more leverage and more pressure onto Iran to come to the negotiating table [2:28] and reopen the Strait of Hormuz? And what do those concessions sort of look like? [2:32] Well, that's the big question, which is, is the president going to concede anything on Taiwan [2:40] and Taiwan's independence? Now, we know that China wants the U.S. to change its position from [2:45] one that officially says that the U.S. does not support Taiwanese independence to outright opposing [2:52] it. Now, we haven't received any indication other than the president's public statements leading [2:58] into the trip saying that he knew that Xi Jinping was going to bring it up. But when the president [3:03] was asked about it earlier today, when he was at a cultural event at the Temple of Heaven, [3:09] he was briefly asked by the pool multiple times whether or not he talked about Taiwan with Xi Jinping, [3:16] and the president ignored those questions. And then when you see the two readouts from both sides, [3:21] you highlighted that the Chinese governments mentioned Taiwan multiple times in what they said, [3:28] the discussions in the discussions that were had between the two leaders, issuing a warning, [3:32] essentially saying that if the U.S. doesn't change its position, if it doesn't approach this [3:37] properly, then the relationship between China and the U.S. will be in, quote, great jeopardy. [3:41] But there was no mention of Taiwan in the readout from the White House official that we received. [3:47] Instead, it was all focused on Iran and the Strait of Hormuz. So again, you know, look, [3:55] I was talking to former national security officials leading into this, and currently I'm still talking [4:00] to them. And they are concerned about what the president may concede when it comes to Taiwan [4:04] to extract some help with Iran, Jackie. Laura, stick with me for just a sec, [4:10] because I want to talk more about this. But MSNOW is citing three U.S. officials with knowledge of [4:14] the matter who say there is now concern amongst U.S. officials that private Chinese military companies [4:20] are considering selling shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles to Iran. This is via [4:26] third-party countries. The officials add that it isn't clear whether any Chinese-made missiles have [4:31] been delivered to Iran, or the extent to which the Chinese government has approved the sales. [4:36] But U.S. intelligence agencies are monitoring possible shipments, including countries in Africa. [4:43] The Chinese government has repeatedly denied arms sales to Tehran, but one U.S. official is telling [4:49] MSNOW's David Rode, quote, we're tracking a number of deals. There is definitely some activity. [4:54] The officials emphasize that any sales are being conducted by private Chinese companies, [4:59] but some express skepticism that the Chinese government would be unaware of such sales, [5:05] saying, quote, China is, at a minimum, helping Iran stay afloat in this war and blockade. [5:12] Laura, do you think that the president is expected to ask China for assistance with this issue in [5:20] particular, especially considering this new reporting and how that could affect ongoing negotiations? I mean, [5:25] the president, in the past, when asked about the sort of invisible levers that China is pulling on [5:31] right now with regards to replenishing their military capabilities, has simply said that China is being [5:37] a great actor. But it seems like that might not be the case. Yeah, I mean, what a senior U.S. [5:45] official told us, even ahead of this, was that the president had talked to Xi Jinping multiple times, [5:51] stressing the desire that China would not purchase as much oil or goods or help Iran, which, you know, [6:00] keep them afloat during this conflict, during this war. So, yes, it's expected that the president [6:06] is going to continue to push China on Iran and on their aid to Iran and on whether or not there could [6:13] be these arms sales. But again, we have very limited information at this point in terms of how this [6:22] first bilateral meeting went. We know that talks are going to continue into tomorrow between the two [6:27] leaders. And I have to say that based on the sources I've talked to, you know, the expectations [6:32] are relatively low in terms of what kind of big deliverable President Trump is going to be able [6:38] to get from China when it comes to help with Iran. But it's certainly something that the White [6:43] House that President Trump is speaking with to Xi Jinping about, Jackie. [6:49] MSNOW White House reporter Laura Barone-Lopez in Beijing. Thank you so much. [6:54] Leading off our discussion tonight is Democratic Senator Cory Booker of the great state of New [6:59] Jersey. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations and Judiciary Committee. Senator Booker, [7:04] thank you for coming in studio. It's great to be with you, John. Thank you so much. [7:09] All right. So we have to get to two big things to come out of Laura Barone-Lopez's report. [7:15] Live from Beijing. One, your reaction to President Trump's social media post where he blames President [7:24] Biden for the situation with China. What do you make of that? [7:29] I mean, China has been enjoying all the blunders, mistakes and disastrous foreign policy of this [7:34] president. This president has mired us in a war in the Middle East yet again. The Straits of Hormuz is [7:41] closed. We're depleting military equipment. He is seeing us make disastrous relationships with our [7:49] allies. And China, what's China getting a chance to do? Well, first of all, they're getting tons of [7:53] money to Iran through their oil sales still, and they're getting more strength internationally in [7:59] their region of the world. The second thing that's really important is on trade, China's cleaning Donald [8:05] Trump's clot. Trump said that he would beat China in a trade war. Well, what's happened is American [8:12] markets, especially for our farmers, for soybeans and commodity products, have shrunk. And China has [8:17] seized these opportunities because of Donald Trump's chaotic tariff regime. And so what we have [8:23] here is a president who's just been a flat out disaster, who goes over there, not in a position of [8:28] strength, but in a position of weakness. And on the world stage right now, he is an embarrassment. [8:33] And I hear it not only in our country, but I hear it from other countries' leaders as well. [8:37] The second thing that Laura talked about, she showed in her report, a clip of the president's [8:43] interview with Sean Hannity of Fox News, where he crows about China making a commitment, [8:53] it sounded like, to buy 200 jets from Boeing. Does that count as a foreign policy win [9:03] for the president of the United States? [9:06] It absolutely does not. I mean, if that's the extent of his wins, a guy who said we would get [9:12] tired of winning, that is absolutely ridiculous. This man is losing. How do we know his presidency [9:17] is a sinking ship? It's because of what's the experience the American people are. Ask them if [9:22] they feel like they're winning when interest rates are up. Ask them if they think they're winning when gas [9:26] prices are reaching record highs. Ask them if they think they're winning when they're struggling so much [9:30] under the lies of a president who said they'd keep them out of foreign wars and lower their prices. [9:36] President Trump has not delivered for the American people. He's created a disaster in the Middle East, [9:40] and he's weakened us vis-a-vis China in trade, in strategic alignment and strength, [9:48] and as well in, frankly, in just the grandeur of the United States being diminished. [9:54] So, Senator, as you know, you were sitting here as I did the intro. The Iran war powers [9:59] failed in the House again today after failing in the Senate for the seventh time yesterday. [10:05] But Republican support appears to be growing. Do you see more Republicans coming over? [10:12] I do. Lisa Murkowski now came over and joined us when we put up a war powers resolution [10:17] in the United States Senate. They cannot deal with what they're experiencing at home. [10:21] What they're experiencing at home across the political spectrum is that they are defending [10:26] an unpopular war that is causing them serious economic pain at home and is going disastrously [10:32] abroad. They cannot defend this anymore, and it's going to get more and more uncomfortable. [10:36] We need to keep the pressure on. It's why I'm leading with a group of senators to force votes [10:40] over and over and again. You're going to own these failures unless you start standing up to [10:46] President Donald Trump and do what you're supposed to be doing, providing a check and a balance [10:50] to your overstepping of this constitutional power. [10:53] Well, speaking of a check, but a different kind of check, listen to what Senator Tim Kaine [10:57] of Virginia said today. [10:58] Yes. [11:01] We're being asked to fund a $1.5 trillion budget, but our request to the DOJ to see the [11:06] OLC opinion justifying this war, they have refused to allow members of the Armed Services [11:12] Committee to see it. U.S. senators, appropriators, we're not allowed to see it. [11:18] What are they hiding? If they will not allow us to see the legal rationale for the war, [11:26] what are they hiding? [11:30] To that point, Senator Booker, what precedent does it set if a president can launch wars and [11:36] then deny senators access to the legal rationale, the legal justification behind that war? [11:43] Yeah. I mean, this is the fundamental insanity of what we're allowing this president to do. [11:48] War powers clearly lie with the Article I branch of government Congress. He has launched a war, [11:54] cost us tens of billions of taxpayer dollars, made the situation worse. The regime's more [11:59] radical. The highly enriched uranium is still there. Straits of Hormuz is closed. He's made [12:04] things worse. And that Congress, controlled by Republicans, is holding virtually no oversight [12:11] hearings, open oversight hearings, holding him to very little accountability and doing very [12:17] little check and balancing. This is not how our system was supposed to work. And the enabling, [12:22] complicit Republicans that are allowing that are not upholding their oath right now. As American [12:27] soldiers are in harm's way right now, who swore an oath to defend our Constitution, are putting [12:32] forward perhaps some of the greatest sacrifices. At home, comfortable Congress people aren't doing [12:38] their job to defend the Constitution. They're allowing the president of the United States to trash it. [12:42] And it's unacceptable. [12:43] Let me get you on one more thing before we go to a break. ABC News is reporting that Donald Trump is [12:48] expected to drop his $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS in exchange for a $1.7 billion weaponization [12:56] fund for allies. What's your reaction to that? [13:00] The American people are watching them struggle as he grifts off his office, as he finds all these ways [13:11] to profit off of corrupt regimes, as his sons run around in tow with him from the Middle East to China [13:18] doing side deals all the time. He's got a ballroom he's spending a billion dollars on. And at home, [13:24] they're saying, what gives? My gas prices are up. My food is up. Inflation is up. What gives? [13:29] How much is this Republican Congress going to let this man prove to be the worst president, [13:35] causing so much injury without doing anything about it? This settlement is corrupt, unjust, [13:42] and needs to be stopped by the American people and by Congress people who have backbones. [13:47] Let's bring in MSNOW White House reporter Jake Traylor, New York Times chief White House [13:51] correspondent Peter Baker. He is an MSNOW political analyst and former U.S. ambassador to China under [13:56] President Obama, Gary Locke. Jake, President Trump's response to a question about an arms package for [14:03] Taiwan is getting a lot of attention this morning. What more do we know? [14:07] Yeah, Ariel, look, I mean, he was asked point blank on Air Force One by a reporter if the United States [14:12] would defend Taiwan in the case of a Chinese attack. And President Trump told the reporter [14:17] that he was actually asked that exact same question by President Xi in their earlier conversations. [14:21] And he said that he told President Xi, quote, I don't talk about that. [14:26] Look, Xi warned Trump at the beginning of these two-day conversations that there was a just serious [14:31] significance here in terms of how the United States and China go about these Taiwanese independence, [14:39] saying that it could potentially have clashes and conflicts if they don't get to an agreeable [14:44] place here. These relations are all underpinned by this potential selling of arms to Taiwan. [14:49] The president's saying he would soon make a determination on what that looks like going [14:54] forward. Take a listen to more of that on Air Force One. [15:05] You're not necessarily going to go ahead. It was your proposal. [15:08] I'm going to make a determination. I'm going to say I have to speak to the person that right now, [15:12] as you know, you know who he is, that's running Taiwan. [15:15] Would the U.S. defend Taiwan if it came to it? [15:17] I don't want to say. I'm not going to say that. There's only one person that knows that. You know who it is? [15:23] Ariel, just to even more underscore the significance of this issue, it was reported by Chinese state [15:31] media that at some point in the conversations over the past couple of days, President Xi told [15:35] President Trump that when it comes to the Taiwan question, that is the sole and most significant [15:41] aspect of the ongoing United States and Chinese relations. So a really clearly significant [15:48] moment that we are still waiting on is the president says he's still going to make that [15:52] determination shortly, but not made during this trip. [15:56] So, Peter, what do you make of the ambiguity that the president is sort of enlisting in this [16:01] moment when it, you know, the aid package to Taiwan, the military package for Taiwan [16:07] has brought bipartisan support. He's being ambiguous at best about whether or not the U.S. [16:13] would defend Taiwan if the circumstances warranted. How should we all be reading this and [16:18] how is China reading this? Yeah, I mean, first of all, let's remember that traditional American [16:23] policy with regard to Taiwan has been something called strategic ambiguity. We have never, [16:28] you know, officially said we would defend Taiwan against a Chinese attack. However, President [16:35] Biden, when he was in office several times asked questions, much like the one that was asked of [16:39] President Trump today, said explicitly that he would, in fact, use the military force to defend [16:44] Taiwan if it came to it. That was a break with years of strategic ambiguity. Trump, in effect, [16:50] is returning to that older policy and effect of saying, I'm not going to say one way or the other. [16:55] We will just leave it at that. Now, you know, does that mean he is backing off? We don't know. [17:01] It's possible that he is simply viewing this as not wanting to poke China at the tail end of their [17:07] meeting, wanting to keep whatever good feelings there were or have. We'll see if he actually follows [17:11] through on the arms sales. That's the real test here. If he doesn't follow through on the arms [17:15] sales, that would be a huge break with American tradition and policy with regard to Taiwan. [17:20] If he's simply saying, I don't want to say right now, but I don't want to spoil, [17:23] you know, the good feelings we have, but he ends up going through it. That's a different thing. [17:27] That could be seen as an act of diplomacy. We'll have to see. [17:31] Yeah. And this president tends to operate in an aura of ambiguity in general. So this may not be [17:37] such a departure from what we've seen in other realms. Ambassador, how important are these arms [17:41] deals to Taiwan and Asia Pacific as a whole? What are your concerns if the president doesn't [17:46] approve this package? Well, obviously, Taiwan is very concerned whether or not the United States [17:53] is following through on its ambiguity toward it, but underlying support for Taiwan and its policy of [18:01] saying that Taiwan and the mainland should resolve this peacefully without force. But the other nations [18:06] are going to be watching to see whether or not America's word or commitment in terms of assistance, [18:11] military or economic, really means anything. The Congress supported, passed the arms sale [18:18] on a bipartisan basis. It was initiated by the administration, the Trump administration. [18:23] And so people are going to be watching. Can we trust America to follow through? [18:29] Jake, the Iran war, also very much a factor on this trip. Take us into those conversations. [18:35] Yeah. I mean, look, the president said he's asking no favors of President Xi and China when it comes to [18:40] the Iranian conflict that has gone on now for months. The president did say they agreed on [18:45] some of the more large and obvious issues that they said that Iran should not have a nuclear weapon, [18:50] that the Strait of Hormuz should be open. Trump did really notably say that he is considering [18:55] lifting sanctions on Chinese companies that buy Iranian oil. That is largely significant. China [19:03] tends to be the largest buyer of Iranian oil. So if that is the case, that would be quite the move. [19:08] And that also seems to be the theme of some of the conversations the president had in regards [19:13] to Iran, in regards to Taiwan, is that there were conversations had, there was no substantive [19:18] detail reached, and that the president is now making considerations, in this case, [19:23] about lifting oil sanctions. Take a listen to the president speaking about that on Air Force [19:26] one hours ago. I'm not asking for any favors. When you ask for favors, you have to do favors [19:34] in return. We don't need favors. We did discuss Iran. We feel very similar to Iran. We want that to [19:41] end. We don't want them to have a nuclear weapon. We want the Straits open. We're closing it now. [19:48] They closed it, and we closed it on top of them. President Xi and China's comments around the war, [19:55] though, have shed no clear light exactly on how Beijing might use their influence in Tehran to [20:01] help end a war that China has said should have never started in the first place. [20:06] So, Ambassador, Iran is heavily dependent, beholden to China. How likely is it that China [20:11] could play a constructive role in trying to reopen the Strait of Hormuz and wind down this conflict? [20:16] What could their involvement look like? Well, first of all, people should know that [20:20] China gets very little of its energy supply from Iran. Yes, it is Iran's major buyer of oil, [20:28] but the oil coming from the entire Middle East, the Gulf states and Iran, count for less than about [20:33] 6% of the total energy supply that China uses. China really gets most of its energy from coal, [20:39] nuclear, wind, and solar. But Iran perhaps needs China more than China needs Iran. Of course, [20:47] China very much wants the Straits opened and the blockade lifted because that oil needs to flow to [20:53] other countries as well. And what's happening now has driven up the price of oil around the world, [21:00] which hurts the economies of all the other nations, especially nations that buy things from China. [21:06] So it's in China's best interest to have a strong, stable economy driven by the reopening of the [21:14] Strait. Peter, the president walked away from this week touting fantastic trade deals. He said a lot [21:19] of different problems are solved. But are we seeing any major signed agreements or expecting any [21:24] announcements? What does it appear that the U.S. may have gotten out of this trip? [21:29] Well, we didn't see any big marquee breakthroughs that were announced. No, nothing like that. He would [21:34] have loved to have had that if he could have. Look, he comes back from every foreign trip bragging about [21:38] some sort of deals that he says he has made. And often they turn out to be more ephemeral [21:43] than he makes them out to be. So we'll have to wait and see if anything gets announced. He did say [21:48] that China had agreed to buy 200 jets from Boeing. That's less than people had expected. And even then, [21:54] neither China nor Boeing has actually confirmed that. So I think that this turned out to be more [21:59] of a status quo summit with regard to trade, as far as we know, unless there were deals that haven't been [22:05] disclosed yet, more of a stability thing than it was a, you know, a big negotiation. But on some [22:12] level, there's there's that's significant, too, because this is a president who in the past has [22:16] been a China hawk who's threatened to blow up the relationship. A visit that didn't actually blow up [22:20] for a president who's known to be volatile, you know, is significant in that sense. [22:26] So, Ambassador, given what Peter just said, was this a smart move for the president to travel to [22:30] China right now? The last time a president was in China was President Trump about nine or so years [22:35] ago. Well, I think it plays to his base because eventually deals will be announced. They may not [22:42] be as large as people hope for or predicted. But nonetheless, if if President Trump is later able [22:49] to announce the sale of soybeans, beef and Boeing airplanes, that will mean that his trip was [22:55] successful. Going into this summit, people had very low expectations, and I think they were proven [23:00] right. She has warned of the so-called Thucydides trap. Much has been made of that comment, [23:06] where it's a reference to a dominant power being threatened by an emerging one. He also outright [23:12] basically threatened the U.S. to keep it in line with Taiwan. Given how at will Xi kind of seems to [23:20] feel at this point with his bold statements, is China sensing an opening with President Trump? Why [23:24] do you believe that the leader has been so outspoken during this trip? Well, I think it's very clear that [23:32] President Xi is very confident. He's basically president for life. He knows that President Trump [23:39] has low approval ratings in the United States and the war is very unpopular and prices are sky high. [23:45] So he's coming into this meeting and hosting President Trump from a position of strength and [23:50] great confidence and, you know, flattering President Trump with a lot of pageantry and state [23:56] state dinners and performances. But in the end, it is just the status quo, continuation of the status [24:02] quo. It's a very important point that it's not just Americans who are paying attention to public [24:07] sentiment here at home. It's also our allies and adversaries as well. Jake Traylor, Ambassador Gary [24:12] Locke and Peter Baker, thank you all. We always had a great relationship before that and after that. [24:20] Now it's as strong as ever. I mean, I went over to where he lives, which is something that rarely happens. Were you there? I don't know. Amazing. I mean, people have never seen it before. It's amazing, actually. We had lunch. [24:33] You talked about the cyber attacks that he's done in the United States or the MSS has done? [24:38] I did, and he talked about attacks that we did in China. You know, what they do, we do, too. It's like the spying. They're talking about, oh, the spying. I said, well, we do it, too. [24:49] Look, no, I'm talking about spying. The question was asked to me yesterday, I guess. What about the fact that China's spying in the United States? They said, well, it's one of those things, because we spy like hell on them, too. [25:08] Two and a half more years, folks. Hi again. Five o'clock in New York with a president like that who needs enemies. [25:14] Donald Trump on Air Force One earlier today on his way back from his trip to China and behaving more like a fan of Chinese, I don't know, superpower ambitions than a leader of the United States of America, a global superpower, or at least we were. [25:34] Those remarks, though, from Trump cap up a visit that, despite Trump's bluster ahead of the trip, most observers across the ideological spectrum agree and note was a resounding victory for China. [25:50] Donald Trump left with zero trade deals closed, something he had stated as one of his key objectives for his meetings with Xi. [25:56] Donald Trump also appeared to soften on the issue of the U.S. continuing to sell weapons to Taiwan after being pressed on the issue by Xi. [26:05] Helping Taiwan to defend itself against a potential Chinese invasion has been America's foreign policy in the region since the year 1979. [26:15] On that, Donald Trump told reporters this, quote, I'll be making decisions, but, you know, I think the last thing we need right now is a war that's 9,500 miles away. [26:27] You don't say. [26:30] Now, in no small part, because Donald Trump is obviously stuck in a war in another part of the world about that far away with no way out. [26:39] And it is a war that has dramatically weakened him politically here at home, as well as on the world's day. [26:46] It's something that was made all too apparent when he was pressed about the war on Air Force One. [26:52] Here's how Donald Trump responded to questions from New York Times reporter David Sanger, who wrote that damning piece on Xi gaining the upper hand at the summit. [27:01] He asked about the state of the ceasefire in Iran. [27:03] Well, I don't want to say that. [27:15] I mean, I'd like to tell you. [27:16] I'd like to say on a certain hour, on a certain day, the bombing is going to start. [27:21] I don't want to say that. [27:22] I can only say that Iran, I can say this with very, very strong conviction. [27:29] Iran will never have a nuclear weapon. [27:31] Not going to happen. [27:32] Mr. President, what would the use be? [27:35] They have no chance. [27:36] What would the use be of repeating the bombing? [27:39] You did it for 38 days. [27:41] Well, no, we did. [27:41] And you did not get the political changes in Iran. [27:45] I had a total military victory. [27:47] But the fake news, guys like you write incorrectly. [27:51] You're a fake guy. [27:52] And guys like you write about it incorrectly. [27:54] We had a total military victory. [27:57] We knocked out their entire Navy. [27:59] We knocked out their entire Air Force. [28:02] We knocked out all of their anti-aircraft weaponry. [28:06] We knocked out all of their radar. [28:09] We knocked out all of their leaders, number one. [28:11] And then we knocked out all of their leaders in the second division. [28:15] And we knocked out numerous of their leaders in the third division. [28:19] And they're very confused. [28:21] We've had a total victory, except by people like you that don't write the truth. [28:26] You know, you should write. [28:27] I actually think it's sort of treasonous what you write. [28:30] But you and the New York Times and CNN, I would say, are the worst. [28:34] Donald Trump lashing out at the journalists accompanying him on his trip to China after his own public displays of weakness were revealed for the world to see. [28:47] It's where we begin the hour with former principal deputy director of national intelligence, our good friend Sue Gordon. [28:52] Thank you for being here. [28:53] You're welcome, Nicole. [28:56] Good to see you. [28:58] Let's start with the trip. [29:02] What is your assessment of both the substance of the trip and the reaction from the two leaders, Trump and Xi? [29:12] So I guess on the top line, nothing bad happened so far, right? [29:22] But I think we need to be clear that there were two different games. [29:29] It's not the right word, but it's the one I'll use today. [29:31] Two different games being played. [29:32] One was about deliverables. [29:35] One was about position and strategy. [29:39] And we were not on the position and strategy side. [29:42] And with China, we've been here before of thinking that we could get them to want to have our values by welcoming them into the free market system. [30:01] And interestingly enough, President Donald Trump in his first term was one of the people that sounded the strongest alarm on what China was doing. [30:10] So anything that he might do that doesn't recognize what their imperatives are, that are very different from ours, is problematic. [30:24] That he got what sound to be deliverables, whether it is Boeing jets or soybeans, and they have not yet manifested. [30:37] So who knows about that? [30:39] They aren't even strategically big deals in the grand scheme of where we've been left economically with them. [30:48] And none of them are about the big issues. [30:52] So, and if you listen to it, Xi signaled this. [31:00] He was very clear. [31:02] His warning about the Thucydides trap was, hey, big boy, we're an ascending power. [31:10] And history is replete with existing powers that didn't recognize that moment. [31:19] So he was very clear. [31:20] He did not, Xi did not back on any of his positions. [31:25] And his messaging on Taiwan was also very clear. [31:29] And again, the importance of Taiwan to the United States, yes, we don't like big powers trampling over smaller powers. [31:37] Taiwan is one of the world's really strong free and open market societies. [31:48] And to lose that, to say that, well, I don't know, you know, it's the straight, is just not reflective of its strategic importance in a world order that is reforming at the moment. [32:02] So I don't think it's very hard to understand what happened here. [32:08] The president went in with some things he needed. [32:13] He came away with rhetoric and a few deals. [32:19] And Xi didn't change one wit on his strategic position about the things he needed. [32:29] So I don't think this is mysterious in terms of how it actually played out. [32:37] So in the early months of covering the war in Ukraine, a lot of people pointed to, you know, the global implications of the United States of America not supporting Ukraine. [32:50] And then the blow up in the Oval Office having global implications. [32:53] And it wasn't clear if Trump didn't believe them or didn't care or saw sort of Putin's fear of influence and seemed to think, well, Putin has a right to that that's in his sphere. [33:04] I mean, his response to the questions about Chinese spying, which has been a national security, you know, imperative for American presidents of both political parties forever, to just shrug it off and be like, everybody does it. [33:20] It's reminiscent of his answer when he was running for president to Joe and Mika on Morning Joe when they said, you know, Putin isn't like us. [33:28] He kills people. [33:29] And Trump says, oh, we kill people, too. [33:31] I mean, what is the what is the impact around the world? [33:35] What assessments are being rewritten today with Donald Trump equating our foreign policy sort of worldview and imperatives and how we operate as being exactly the same as China? [33:46] Yeah. [33:47] So let me start with he's wrong. [33:51] It isn't the same, at least still for the next little bit. [33:56] We're a nation of laws. [33:58] There is a bright line between our government and our private sector. [34:03] Are you sure? [34:05] What? [34:07] Yeah. [34:07] Are you sure? [34:08] Well, still? [34:11] Well, I guess I guess it's a great point. [34:13] Thanks for depressing me even further today. [34:16] No, but I'm just going to say that there is a difference. [34:23] Yes, on one level, spying is what a really old profession and it has been one of the great tools of strategic advantage for nations worldwide for the longest time since Gettysburg and before that. [34:38] But we are a nation of laws and I've lived in this world and I haven't seen that those laws have gone away and they do they do create boundaries. [34:47] And also just intellectually, we have had a bright line between what I'm going to call civilian casualties, even that's to include economic casualties. [35:02] And there just is, you know, we don't go trooping into Chinese companies and steal their intellectual property. [35:08] We just that that isn't for the same reason we don't go trooping into our companies and steal intellectual property. [35:13] So he's wrong about that. [35:15] There there is a difference. [35:16] And probably the most concrete difference is that they have national security laws that insist that every Chinese citizen or company, when asked, must provide their information that they have of any data of somebody else's that goes through. [35:33] And we don't that isn't our law. [35:34] And so it isn't the same. [35:36] I reject the notion that it's the same. [35:39] Now, if it's being done differently by some people and it hasn't been discovered yet, but just intellectually, it's a different thing. [35:47] But to your question of Sue, are you sure? [35:49] That's exactly the impact with our allies and partners. [35:53] It's like we've changed sides. [35:58] Right. [35:58] It's it was it was when he said, you know, maybe I'll I'll we'll do a joint vision venture on taking tolls from the Strait of Hormuz. [36:08] When freedom of the seas has been as old as our nation. [36:14] And so whether these things actually manifest or whether they just become what we say we're OK with that impact with the people that that aren't sitting with their friends, Sue, and say, you sure, you know that they're saying, well, I guess I have to assume that. [36:31] And they have enough observables to do it. [36:33] So it is a profound impact and you're seeing it with the choices our allies and partners are making for themselves. [36:42] Now, is it irrecoverable? [36:44] I don't know, but they're making it. [36:45] When you listen to the substance of what he says about Taiwan, which is why would we want to get involved there? [36:55] It's 9,500 miles away, which has never been an American president of either party's answer to Taiwan. [37:01] It's been about its importance. [37:02] It's been about its its people. [37:05] It's been about its alliance to us. [37:08] There's never been the answer. [37:09] Why would I get involved? [37:10] It's 9,500 miles away. [37:11] And then you look at the other side of that, all of she's unswerving public and private conduct. [37:18] I mean, even in an interview with Hannity, Trump couldn't say that she had anything, you know, collaborative to say about Iran's nuclear program. [37:26] I mean, she didn't move an inch off of anything or anyone. [37:30] She didn't go to the airport. [37:31] I mean, she plays a 100-year game. [37:33] Donald Trump can't sit in discomfort for 15 minutes. [37:35] I mean, how do you view our disadvantage on the question of Taiwan right now? [37:42] So here's a bizarre answer that I just thought of. [37:46] I actually don't mind that he said it out loud because I have believed that it was true, that it had become true. [37:54] That with this president, the way he is, with the difficulty he's encountered with Iran, which has, if Iran was monumentally different from Venezuela, [38:06] I can't even put the difficulty of China and what it would take to prepare for doing something about that. [38:14] So I think it had been in question and should have been in question, and Taiwan was probably wondering if it was in question, [38:22] and our allies and partners were probably wondering before he said it out loud. [38:27] So what I would say now that he's articulated it, the other branches of government, the other people who were involved, [38:36] because no matter how much it may seem these days that this nation is completely under the control of one person, [38:47] that he has now said that, those other elements of national power have better leap into the fray [38:56] and ask that question and do their job. [38:58] And yes, I'm speaking to you, Congress, because this question, the idea that he would sit by [39:07] if no matter what people might say on the edges, if Xi decided to take that by force, [39:16] when we know what the will of the Taiwan people are, [39:21] we better deal with that as a nation because it is a big question of national interest. [39:26] So I don't like hearing it. I would rather it be out there that we as a nation have to deal with [39:36] and ask that question of ourselves, what are our national interests, [39:40] and get the other elements of power into the fray. [39:44] I mean, just watching Congress, if you were assessing Congress for another, you know, allies' information, [39:52] what would you assess the likelihood of that to be? [39:55] Today, zero. But one of the things I've said for a long time, she has some problems of his own. [40:05] They may not be problems that are going to make them weak in the short haul, [40:12] but I don't believe he's ready to do it either. [40:15] So one of the things you and I have talked about before is why we have these conversations, [40:21] is it's really to get the American people, as I was saying, thinking about what's important to you. [40:26] Right. [40:27] So we're about to have elections coming up. I would say, ask your representatives. [40:32] Start making this a question that you care about because I'm here to tell you, it will matter. [40:41] Yeah. [40:41] It will matter. [40:43] Yeah. And this doesn't have a partisan divide. 75% of Americans do not approve of China. Yeah. [40:49] When Donald Trump was running for president, you may remember this. He had a question he loved to ask, [40:54] a particular thought experiment about a tête-à-tête between Vice President Harris and President Xi. [41:01] And it went like this. [41:01] Kamala Harris is so incompetent. Can you imagine her dealing with President Xi of China? [41:10] Can you imagine her dealing with President Xi? Can you imagine with President Xi? [41:14] Can you imagine her negotiating with President Xi of China? [41:18] Can you imagine her standing with President Xi of China? I don't think so. [41:22] Can you imagine? He said that so many times. [41:26] I mean, Trump spent that campaign railing about China's influence in the world, and he repeatedly insisted [41:31] that he alone was the only candidate tough enough to go toe-to-toe with President Xi of China. [41:37] He was the only person who could show Xi who's boss. [41:42] Well, Donald Trump just finished his first state visit to China in his second term. [41:46] And how did it go? [41:48] Did big, bad Donald Trump stand up to the Chinese leader? [41:51] We have a friendship, really. He's a tremendous leader. He's been here a long time. Very powerful. [42:00] Very strong. There's no doubt about it. I say about him that if you went to Hollywood and you look for [42:06] a leader of China to play a role in a movie... [42:11] Central casting. [42:11] Central casting. You couldn't find a guy like him. [42:14] Even his physical features, you know, he's tall, very tall. [42:20] I'll get criticized. They always criticize me when I say good things about certain leaders, and this one. [42:29] But he's a leader for China. [42:33] He's led almost 1.5 billion people for a long time, and he's respected. [42:39] Can you imagine if Kamala Harris was president? Could she lavish the leader of the Chinese Communist [42:47] Party with praise like that? Would she be able to capture what a tall, beautiful autocrat with [42:53] movie star look Xi is with the same gushing prose? I don't think so. I don't think she has that in [42:59] her. Okay, so Donald Trump didn't exactly put on his tough guy American first routine for President [43:05] Xi as he claimed he would do throughout the campaign, but maybe that's okay. After all, [43:10] Trump has just plunged our country into a disastrous and protracted war with Iran. The [43:14] Strait of Hormuz has been closed for 77 days now, driving up global oil prices and forcing [43:20] Americans to pay a whole lot more when they fill up their gas tanks. Maybe Trump is focused on [43:26] getting President Xi's help to reopen the strait and fix Trump's big mess. Doesn't make a ton of [43:32] sense, but maybe that's where his focus is. Any progress on that front? President Xi would like to [43:37] see a deal made. He would like to see a deal made. And he did offer, he said, if I can be of any help [43:45] at all, I would like to be of help. He did say that. Yeah, he did say that. And look, anybody that [43:50] buys that much oil has obviously got some kind of a relationship with him. But he said, I would love [43:55] to be of help. If I could be of any help whatsoever, he'd like to see the Hormuz Strait open. He said, [44:02] if I could be of any help whatsoever, I would like to help. Well, hey, I mean, even Sean Hannity [44:08] sounded a little surprised there. Did you catch that? As he should be, because China has no real [44:13] incentive to help end this war. But Trump says President Xi agreed to help reopen the Strait of [44:18] Hormuz. Maybe something, maybe miraculously will come out of this after all. Now, all Trump has to do [44:25] is seal the deal with those trademark negotiating skills he's always bragging about. Any luck with [44:29] that one? I'm not asking for any favors, because when you ask for favors, you have to do favors in [44:45] return. We don't need favors. I didn't ask him to put pressure because, you know, I don't, I don't need [44:51] favors. Literally on the flight home from China where he did the interview with Sean Hannity. So no help [44:59] with the Strait of Hormuz then. Cool. Cool. I guess Trump's biggest international blunder will continue to [45:06] just blunder along for now. Then again, this trip was about more than just fixing Trump's latest [45:12] scripts. It was about reaffirming the U.S.'s position on big decades-long issues. Issues like [45:18] China's claim over the country of Taiwan. For years now, people have been worried that China may try to [45:23] invade Taiwan and take the country by force. And even Trump's immediate predecessor, the man Trump loves to [45:28] criticize as weak, took a harder line than U.S. presidents had in some time. Would U.S. forces defend the [45:36] island? Yes. If in fact there was an unprecedented attack. To be clear, sir, U.S. forces, U.S. men and [45:43] women would defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese invasion. Yes. So what did tough on China Donald [45:52] Trump have to say about the issue of Taiwan on this trip? It was a war. That's 9,500 miles away. I think [46:04] that's the last thing we did. We're doing very well. Would the U.S. defend Taiwan if it came to it? [46:09] I don't want to say that. I'm not going to say that. There's only one person that knows that. You [46:14] know who it is? Me. I'm the only person. That question was asked to me today by President Xi. I [46:21] said, I don't talk about that. Trump says he's not going to talk about his position on Taiwan, [46:27] although I kind of feel like he sort of did tell us his position in the first part of that clip. [46:32] So let's just play that part again. I think the last thing we need right now is a war [46:39] that's 9,500 miles away. I think that's the last thing we need. [46:44] I think the last thing we need right now is a war that's 9,500 miles away. It sounds [46:50] kind of like Trump is saying he's not interested in defending Taiwan if they're invaded by China, [46:54] which was the position of most presidents in recent memory. And for the record, Taiwan isn't [47:00] 9,500 miles away from the U.S. It's 6,500 miles away or about the same distance as Iran. You know, [47:08] the place where Donald Trump decided we did need a war for reasons he has never effectively explained. [47:14] So I guess Trump wasn't interested in standing up for Taiwan on this trip, but maybe he was just [47:19] saving all his leverage for the stuff that really matters to the folks he likes to call his people. [47:23] I mean, after all, Trump has spent years making big promises to parts of his base about how he would [47:28] specifically stand up for them against China. Promises like this one, which Trump made [47:33] on the campaign trail just a few years ago. I will ban communist China from buying up American [47:41] farmland and other critical infrastructure in the United States. You have to do it. You have to do it. [47:57] So Trump promised he would ban China from buying up U.S. farmland. He said, [48:02] you have to do it. So did he do it? Did he keep that promise? [48:07] Yes. Chinese nationals have been buying up thousands and thousands of acres of farmland, [48:15] ranch land and land near military installations. Look, it's not that I love it. You want to see [48:22] farm prices drop? You want to see farmers lose a lot of money? Just take that out of the market. [48:27] But they've had a lot of land for a long time. There you go. Looks like Trump's not exactly keeping [48:36] that promise he made on the campaign trail either. Look, Donald Trump talked a lot, a lot, a lot of [48:41] big talk about how he would be tough on China as president. But the end of this trip, it seems like [48:46] he's done really nothing for his voters, nothing for Taiwan, nothing to end his war in Iran. [48:52] The only things he seems to have done was compliment the leader of the Chinese Communist Party for [48:57] his good looks and his height, I guess. After all that, what does Donald Trump want us to believe [49:02] he got out of this trip? What was our big success? What's the most significant, specific thing [49:09] you walk away from here for the U.S.? I think the most important thing is relationship. It's all [49:16] about relationship. I have a very good relationship with President Xi and with China. And it sounds like [49:23] something that doesn't mean anything, but it's everything. Can you imagine that guy sitting across [49:29] from Xi Jinping? Unfortunately, we don't have to. I could not think of two better people to break down [49:37] all of this madness with me and everything that just happened on that trip. Michael McFaul is the [49:40] former U.S. ambassador to Russia. Barbara Starr is the legendary former Pentagon correspondent for CNN. [49:46] Both of them have been on many, many, many trips, international trips with many leaders in the past. [49:52] And I'm so grateful they're joining me now. Ambassador McFaul, let me start with you. I just outlined [49:56] some of the biggest issues that were at stake during this visit. We talked about this late [50:01] last night when it was the trip was still a bit ongoing. But as you looked, it's now over. What did [50:06] Trump and really the United States get out of this trip? Chen, you just summarized it brilliantly. [50:13] That was a fantastic laydown. And I'm so glad you reminded everybody about what he said he was going [50:19] to do with China. Remember, when he first ran for president, it was all about China. China's eating [50:25] our lunch. China's taking our jobs. They're doing all these horrible things to us. And he used in [50:31] that phrase, that clip you just showed, communist China, right? You never heard him use the word [50:37] communist once on this trip. And I just think this flip is remarkable. And I hope his voters noticed it. [50:46] I hope Republicans noticed it, because for decades, the Republican Party was always saying [50:54] Democrats are weak on China. We're going to be tough. And now he is completely flipped. [51:00] You could not do a bigger flip than what he said he was going to do from his first term. [51:06] And you could say, well, OK, Mike, settle down. We got really important things we got to do. [51:11] Therefore, he has to say nice things about the chairman of the Communist Party of China. [51:17] He has to praise him as the great, great leader. We don't do that for our allies. We only do it for [51:22] Putin and Xi Jinping. But he has to do it, Mike, because we have to get some concrete things done [51:28] for the American people. But as you just showed, there's not a single concrete deliverable that [51:34] makes the American people better off, more secure as a result of this trip. And that's, [51:40] I think, makes it very bankrupt because everything was so sycophantic about what a great leader he was. [51:47] You would hope you could translate that into something tangible. And I haven't seen it yet. [51:52] Now, maybe there's something behind closed doors we'll learn about later, but I haven't seen it so far. [51:59] No, I haven't either. And usually you would see it because usually all of the work is done in the [52:04] lead up to the trip. And then the president's announced things because all the work was done [52:08] by cabinet members and others.