Widow’s Texts Under Microscope in Microsoft Exec Murder Case

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: For WJX and WJXT, did you all file any papers or just want to be heard? Okay. I'll take you in whatever order you want to. [00:00:14] Speaker 2: I'll go, Your Honor. [00:00:16] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:00:25] Speaker 2: So, WJX opposes the proposed closure of the hearing for a couple of reasons. One, substantive and one procedural. The procedural one I'll discuss first. Procedurally, Rule 3.220M does not provide for an ex parte hearing relief, except to the extent that a defendant seeks to depose a Category B witness. Rule 3.220M states as following. There are three subpoints to it. The first two are relevant here. The first one states as follows. One, any person may move for an order denying or regulating disclosure of sensitive matters. The court may consider the matters contained in the motion in camera. And then two says, on request, the court must allow the defendant to make an ex parte showing of good cause for taking the deposition of a Category B witness. Those are two distinct subpoints. Rule 3.220M does not provide for ex parte hearings absent the defendant seeking to depose a Category B witness. As the court in State v. Calloway, this is 937 Southern Second 139, explained, quote, The defendant in the instant case suggested below and claims on appeal that Rule 3.220M allows for what is in effect an ex parte in camera inspection of material. We cannot agree with the defendant's expansive reading of the rule. The rule that allows... [00:01:40] Speaker 1: Can I stop you for just a moment? Yes. Aren't the facts in that... [00:01:43] Speaker ?: Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that... [00:01:43] Speaker 1: Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that... Aren't the facts in that case important... Meaning the trial court in that case, the state was learning kind of in real time that the court was having a whole side litigation with the defense counsel. It truly was ex parte, meaning no notice, no hearings, no anything, and then the court was entering these side orders that were totally without knowledge of substance or anything related to that case. I find this very distinct and different in this particular case. I've had... Now, I think this is my third hearing about trying to make a ruling in this case. The Callaway case, you don't find any factual distinction in what's going on here? I do. [00:02:39] Speaker 2: Your point is well taken. There absolutely are factual distinctions. But the point of that case, and there are others that I can cite to you as well, are that these are two distinct subpoints. So, unless the point being from that, and then these other cases that I will cite, is that unless a Category B witness is attempting to be deposed, then certainly the court may and absolutely is expected to review documents in camera. Absolutely. But for there to be the presence of counsel and argumentations being made, that runs afoul of the principle of not just Callaway, but I can read here also from Ocala Star Banner versus McGee. So, what's the point of that? [00:03:15] Speaker 1: So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? [00:03:17] Speaker 2: So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? [00:03:58] Speaker ?: So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? [00:05:11] Speaker 2: So, what's the point of that? [00:05:12] Speaker ?: So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? [00:05:46] Speaker 1: So, what's the point of that? So, what's the point of that? I want to make sure I have. 643-Southern 2nd 196? 1196. 1196. 1196. I'm like, this case didn't even look. All right. 119. I missed the one. Okay. I'm like, whoa. What is this? Give me just a second. [00:06:06] Speaker 2: It should be from the 5th DCA. Yes, sir. [00:06:08] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I was like, what in the world is this? [00:06:11] Speaker 2: I was speaking quickly. I apologize. [00:06:13] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:06:23] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:06:49] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:07:19] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:07:49] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [00:08:49] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:09:19] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:10:49] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:11:19] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:11:49] Speaker 2: Thank you. [00:12:19] Speaker 1: Thank you. They were determining whether the trial court violated procedural due process or whether the order departs from its essential requirements, which is the requirement to get the appellate court to stop and review the trial court, its procedure. And it says, and it says, and it says, "In this case, the state acknowledges that the trial court may conduct an in-camera review of discovery materials sought to be exempted from public disclosure. To me, this distinction is the law law and the law, and it says, and this is the defendant, and it says, "In this case, what is being concerned in this particular case is the defendant's Sixth Amendment right, which the state does not have. the state sought in camera review of things that should be publicly disclosed pursuant to a statute, I believe is what they were trying to submit everything to the court. So the court would, I guess, go through their public records review, which is odd. But then it says the recent decision in Callaway is instructive. In Callaway, the defendant claimed that rule 3.2208 allowed for ex parte in camera inspection of purported work product materials for the defendant psychiatric expert. And again, Callaway is also important because it was factually very strange that the court was having this whole side litigation. And it said the court reject, it says the court rejected this contention, observing that an in camera inspection and an ex parte proceeding are not one in the same. And it said, indeed, the ex parte proceeding is proper only when permitted by law. It says, although Callaway trial court correctly concluded that it had the authority to and in fact did conduct an in camera inspection of the underlying materials, that inspection improperly occurred after the defense submitted the materials to the trial court without notice to the state. And it says, big, big, big, big. And says, although the state was not entitled to review the material. Submitted for the in camera inspection, the state as a party was entitled to the notice that is due process. And the opportunity to be heard again due process and any hearing regarding the alleged privileged nature of the material again due process. The state's. rights are in due process. The state's rights are in due process. The state's rights are in the hearing. The media's rights are in the hearing. The media's rights do not lie in the constitutional confines of the Sixth Amendment. The way that I see it. And it's not saying that the court was improper and excluding it was improper in the procedural notice Callaway to me turns where the trial court was not allowing the parties due process. Not that what the court did necessarily was inappropriate because there was no, there was no due process notice. So that's what I want you to comment on. Like the procedure. We had that whole hearing. Um, the court was in artful. I believe I corrected. Um, when. Speaker 2: Ex parte means total exclusion, total no notice. And like, I'm, I'm doing my very best to give notice to everyone that is. Yes. All right. [00:16:32] Speaker 2: Speaker 2: Yes. Uh, ex parte. And, and of course, WJ exposition is not that you do not have the authority. Absolutely do to look at any material that are submitted in camera. That is absolutely correct. Speaker 2: The point is that whenever it is accompanied by the presence of counsel and argumentation, the public, and this goes to the second point that I'll get to the public, uh, have a right to be there simultaneously with that. So yes, the typically as the Morris case, the other cases that I'll cite to you in a moment describe, the parties are expected to be artful in their language enough to not divulge whatever is sensitive to be able to explain. Speaker 2: Okay. When you look at these documents in camera, here's what you are going to be looking for this privilege or this sense of information and all of that must be done in open court. Speaker 2: Then the, the court and takes those documents pursued the argumentation that was made publicly back into chambers and can review to his or her heart's content. Speaker 2: That's the, that's the distinction. Ex parte means whenever, when there is a party or parties council and the judge in exclusion in communication in argumentation to the exclusion of the public and or the other side. Speaker 2: So that's, that's the distinction. So certainly, yes, it is expected that you will take whatever documents need to be reviewed and review them in camera. Speaker 1: Well, you do know the problem with this case. Do you? Speaker 2: I am vaguely aware. Speaker 1: Okay. Tell me what you're aware of. Speaker 2: I'll see. As was, I'll read on July 21st, the defendant misses from your order from two days ago. Speaker 2: Um, the defendant moved orally in camera based upon a privilege information to supplement their motion related to the materiality prong of the subpoena deus esticum. Speaker 2: The, what I think that I'll try to cut it off to be brief. There's a case from 1988 in Supreme Court called Morris. Speaker 2: And I will go ahead and cite to that. And the, the, what the trial court did, um, excuse me, it's a baron versus Florida freedom newspapers. Speaker 2: And in that case, the, the trial court closed proceeding based upon what it articulated as cogent reasons and said, if I explain those reasons in open court, then the cat will be out of the bag. Speaker 2: I will, and I will not be able to, um, the reasons that I'm trying to protect will be divulged. Speaker 2: So I'm going to enter an order closing and I will not explain why based upon the Lewis factors, which we'll get to in a second. Speaker 2: And the Supreme Court said, no, you can't do that. You have to, if you're going to exclude and we'll get to the reasons why in a second, you have to evidentially show all three reasons. Speaker 2: You can't say, well, if I let, if I say, if I state it, the cat will be out of the bag and the whole point will be moot. Speaker 2: That violates Lewis and it violates the first amendment rights of the public. Speaker 2: So that that's the issue is that yes, there may be issues that if they are publicly articulated, make that the cat of the bag, but still, unless they are adequately explained in an order, uh, with findings of fact and conclusions of law that are articulated factually, uh, in such a way that interlocutory immediate appeal is possible, then it violates the Lewis standard, which we'll get to in just a second. Speaker 2: So that that's the problem is that there must be articulated reasons, both of fact and law for all three prongs of the Lewis test, which I'll talk about in a second. Speaker 2: So yes, if there are these other issues that let the cat out of the bag, that's still doesn't. [00:19:40] Speaker 1: Speaker 2: No, no, that's, that's not what I'm, that's not what I'm asking. Speaker 2: I'm asking you, do you know what this particular factual issue is, which is. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for, um, this is for production of something that does not exist. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:20:05] Speaker ?: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:20:05] Speaker 1: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 1: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:10] Speaker ?: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:11] Speaker 2: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 3: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:21] Speaker 1: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:23] Speaker ?: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:24] Speaker 1: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:26] Speaker 2: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:38] Speaker ?: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:39] Speaker 2: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:41] Speaker ?: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. [00:22:42] Speaker 2: Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: this is for subpoena. Speaker 2: this is for subpoena. Speaker 2: this is for subpoena. Speaker 2: This is for subpoena. Speaker 2: this is for subpoena. Speaker 2:17 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:19 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:21 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:22 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. [00:23:16] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. [00:23:22] Speaker 2: Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:23 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:25 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:26 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:27 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:27 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:29 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:31 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:33 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:35 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:35 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:36 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:36 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:39 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:39 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:41 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:42 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:42 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:43 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:43 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:45 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:46 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:50 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:51 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:52 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:53 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:55 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:55 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:55 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:57 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:58 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:58 This is for subpoena. [00:25:54] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:25:56] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:03] Speaker 4: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:37] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:38] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:39] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:40] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:41] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:42] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:45] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:26:50] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:27:04] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. [00:27:05] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:59 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:28:29] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:28:30] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:00] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:07] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:08] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:12] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:17] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. [00:29:29] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:02 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:01 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:02 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:03 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. [00:30:06] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:05 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:06 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:10 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:10 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. [00:30:51] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. [00:30:53] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. [00:30:55] Speaker ?: Speaker 2:11 This is for subpoena. [00:30:56] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:14 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:14 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:15 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:16 This is for subpoena. Speaker 2:17 This hearing takes place. Speaker 2:17 They go forward with whatever evidence that they have that they believe that they're deserving of Miss Bridegan's additional information, so then then at that point when they say we want to assert this very limited privileged argument related to after that evidence is concerned. Speaker 2:16 You say that would be an appropriate procedure for the court to then just excuse counsel briefly take that and either go forward or not. [00:31:42] Speaker 5: Speaker 2:16 If they are providing a particularized reason for it, then yes, I believe you could say step out. Speaker 2:16 I want to review this real quickly, and then you can make the decision right then. You know what? Speaker 2:16 This isn't. Speaker 2:16 You know this is this will be public. Mrs. Bridegan can hear this, and then you can make that decision then. Speaker 2:16 Because otherwise what's happening than otherwise is they are just having a separate hearing, and they are allowed them to present whatever they want, and it's on rebutted, and to take the victim out of that completely, I think, is against her constitutional rights, and I understand your honors not you're in a difficult, it's a unique situation that I've not been able to find case law me either. Speaker 2:16 It's completely on, and so I understand that we're trying to craft something that works for everybody, but they have a right to confront a witness. They have confronted us. Mrs. Bridegan is. [00:32:38] Speaker 1: Speaker 2:16 Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not there yet. I'm not at the confrontation. I'm at the broad liberal discovery rules that, you know, honestly, I'm treading new ground. Speaker 2:16 That, so we, we've been, we've been deep diving into F, we've been now messing around with subsection M, but also there's B, like that no one is even talking about, which is B is the defense has to be given statements, and it doesn't necessarily preclude that it comes from a phone, you know, and then, then, but I also have read and take to heart the arguments that have been made by counsel, Mr. Clifton, in a very coherent way, and I've read Marcy's law more times than I think I ever have, and I'm, and, but also the defense in Marcy's law has a separate implication of what they're requesting too, which is the rights of Ms. Bridegan to have communication with the prosecution, they're asking for that too. So, I mean, so, but I, I'm trying to understand, is this a distinction without a difference? So if, if you all came to what I have scheduled on Monday, and I start the hearing publicly, and then they say Judge X, I have a brief excusal, then you all come back, I make my ruling, how would you be able to rebut it? [00:34:30] Speaker 5: If they provide a reason, and let me just show you, because they did this. Okay, they did not. And they did not. They, in E, for, for the text messages of EF, in their motion, they write, EF said this in her deposition, EF said this to our investigator, we believe that based upon that information, that there was some type of communication between these two, where there was influence. And you said, okay. And I mean, we'll get those messages to the court, your court's going to review those in an in-camera review. I mean, that's the process. For everything else, everything with AB and LB, it's just, there must be influence, there must be bias, and therefore we need to see it. Well, that's not it. Do the same thing you did with EF. You know what? We have this message here. We have this testimony over here. AB is saying this, or some other witness has made this statement that's in contradiction, or that at least raises to some level of suspicion. Therefore, we want the opportunity to look further into this, not just to make vague assumption or accusation of bias and influence, which is all they have done. Your Honor, they have said all these messages exist, and we think that they're biased, and we think that there's some influence in them, so we want to see them. When it came to EF, they were very clear. When it comes to everybody else, no. Silence. Different, different. [00:35:59] Speaker 1: In the hearing, in the hearing, Ms. Nelson, I don't have my notes with me, but my memory serves, and it can be corrected, which I believe that Ms. Nelson said, because I took a break, something to the effect of, like, about the messages between law enforcement and the prosecution that they wanted to give me that information separately, and then there was kind of, we skipped past it, because I was, I had not read the cases at that point in time, and I was hesitant to even do any of that. [00:36:40] Speaker 5: Then they have to provide, I mean, there it is. Then tell me, give me some type of particularization of why this is even an issue. [00:36:51] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:36:51] Speaker 5: I mean, that's what we're asking for. So if we're in the middle of a hearing, and they say, again, Your Honor, they say, listen, we have a statement from this witness, and it contradicts something she said, and we want to be able to show you something that's to our defense strategy without them in the room. Can we please do that so you can decide whether it's public or not? [00:37:08] Speaker 1: Okay. Then we deal with it. But then, Mr. Clifton, like, I'm still stuck at, like, because I limited, I limited based on Ms. Bridegan's objection, and I, like, understandably, it was a very particular and long period of time, and then it has also been argued to this court multiple times, um, that they have the other part of the two-way communication without any acknowledgement, um, I have no clue, but it's been argued several times. [00:37:41] Speaker 5: It's been attached to the deposition. I mean, they attached the document to the deposition. [00:37:47] Speaker 1: Which one? [00:37:48] Speaker 5: Uh, the first deposition, Your Honor. [00:37:49] Speaker 1: The first depo? [00:37:51] Speaker 5: The attachments were under seal, like, there is. So, you know, and... [00:37:54] Speaker 1: Ms. Bridegan's first depo? The, the second part? [00:38:01] Speaker 5: The, what? No, the first deposition that she had in jail. [00:38:04] Speaker 1: Ms. Oh, you're saying in the depo there's questions related to AB and LB? [00:38:08] Speaker 5: The actual document showing a text message, and I believe that that was attached to the deposition. [00:38:13] Speaker 1: Ms. I, I only got a summary. I got, um, it's like four pages on every page. That's what I got. [00:38:20] Speaker 5: Okay. Well... [00:38:21] Speaker 1: Ms. I don't have that. I don't have what you're talking about. Okay. [00:38:25] Speaker 5: Ms. Okay. All right. So, I mean, it, it does exist. And, you know, I don't want to... Ms. Okay. No, I'm, right. Ms. I want to kind of stay focused on just, I understand that that, that, you know, this upcoming hearing, it may not be ideal, but it's the least restrictive, I think, was the correct word for, because otherwise what you're allowing is a separate hearing for the defense to make arguments. And that is our concern. If they can come in and just, present what they believe and why without any rebuttal whatsoever, then how do we, because, you know, frankly, if you say, well, right, well, I'm going to order this subpoena and I want to file a motion to quash, what am I filing it on? My inability to do anything. I don't know what they're arguing. I have no clue what happened. Now, if they have, you know, they're going to have to present something. I'm sorry. Sometimes in law, you got to make decisions. You got to weigh it. Hey, you know what? We want this subpoena. We really want to look at those records. You know what? We're going to have to admit a couple of things. We can't just say, we're not saying anything. She can't be here. We want those records. And no one can know why, except for your honor. That's, I mean, you got to balance things as a lawyer. And sometimes you got to give up some stuff. That's just the way it is. Okay. So again, just, we have addressed it in this, in our motion here. There really is constitutional rights here. She has a right to be at this hearing. There is a way to figure it out. And just to throw a little something else at your honor. I'm not going to be available on Monday. So I put it at the end. If by chance, Ms. Breitigan is allowed to be at this hearing, if it can take place on Friday, I'm going to be in the mountains. And I can't guarantee I have to. [00:40:14] Speaker 1: I'm running out of runway, Mr. Clifton. Mr. Clifton. I do. I don't, I don't have a lot of time. Mr. Four day window. I got it to happen that way, your honor. Okay. Thank you. All right. Ms. Nelson. [00:40:33] Speaker 6: Thank you, your honor. Um, I'll, I'll start where Mr. Clifton left off. Um, and this, the point I want to make perhaps addresses both, I'll say, sections of argument, both for Mr. Clifton and from, uh, the attorneys representing the media outlets. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what the defense asked the court to do and what I understood the court to order. And that is that we are giving a proffer. A proffer is not an argument. A proffer is a statement of what we intend to cross-examine on at trial and what touches on themes of our defense. That's not argument, your honor. It is a proffer. I think that's important to ground this conversation because much of the points made by both Mr. Clifton and the media are grounded in this idea that we'll be making argument to your honor without parties being present or without ability to respond. That's not what we intend to do. We intend to be very narrow and limited, and that's what we understood the court to be ordering. I also want to make clear that the court is in a difficult position of balancing Ms. Breidigan's constitutional rights and Ms. Gardner's constitutional rights, but that's exactly what we're asking the court to do is a balancing. Neither one is absolute. However, Ms. Gardner's constitutional rights are both guaranteed to her under due process in the Fifth Amendment and the Sixth Amendment. It's not simply just a right to confront witnesses at trial. It is also her fundamental right to effective assistance of counsel that includes pretrial work, that includes us not revealing our defense strategy and giving a blueprint to cross-examinations of some of the state's key witnesses. I've made this argument before, so I won't belabor the point, Your Honor, but that is both a constitutional right of Ms. Gardner's, [00:42:32] Speaker 1: it also implicates my ethical obligations. Well, Ms. Nelson, I guess, let me ask you this, okay? The point has been made multiple times. The state, now the media, now Ms. Breidigan's attorney through a filing. Their objections, both procedural in nature. Is there, from the defense perspective, a cleaner path to get to the same point procedurally? This, this seems to be, the procedure seems to be, um, you know, quite onerous to me, um, where I, I want to get to the ruling. I, I've been trying to get to the ruling for, I think now about a week and a half or maybe two, that, is there a, from the defense pers, and I, I put the questions to Mr. Clitzen, but really I need to probably put the questions to the defense, which is, in your papers, you allege, like, there's only three percent, but then there's been argument from the prosecution and also Mr. Clifton now that, um, you have the other side of this two-way communication. Um, so if that is a case, isn't there a, a cleaner procedural avenue for the court to go through as opposed to this in-camera hearing? I appreciate the court's question. I, I [00:44:09] Speaker 6: think there is, um, a way to thread this needle. So what, what I would propose, Your Honor, is that we can come back to court on Monday. I, setting aside Mr. Clifton's scheduling issues, so if we need to move it, obviously the defense's preference is to move forward on Monday, we come, we come to court, it's an open proceeding, we can be prepared to make additional argument that I believe will get us closer and narrow what would need to be done in camera, and then should the court have additional points, should the defense want to make additional proffer to the court regarding defense theory, we could then do that separately, very similarly to what Mr. Clifton was asking for. I think that that would be a way to thread the needle, and if there is objection to that, we could take it up at that point. Our position is that there's only so much we can reveal publicly, and that we are happy to get as close to that line as we possibly can, both protecting my con, my client's constitutional rights and upholding my ethical obligations, and we certainly are not asking this court to tip the scales in balancing the different constitutional rights at issue here. And we believe that that would protect Ms. Gardner's rights, it would be respectful of Ms. Breidigan's rights, and it would certainly uphold the First Amendment rights that the media is speaking to the court about. I do want to make separate argument on that separately, Your Honor, but that is our proposal and how to move forward. So let me, I think also, [00:45:47] Speaker 1: okay, well, let me just pause there. What's the party's position there? The state would be there? The media would be there. What's y'all's, the offer by Ms. Nelson? [00:46:02] Speaker 2: That would be amenable to WJAX. I just want to clarify one point, is that calling something a proper rather than argument may not be the correct analysis. In Morris, the Dunn case, the first DCA said that the access question cannot be resolved solely on the label that we give something. So what is the difference between a proper and an argument? The functional analysis is what what controls, according to Morris. And so, um, attempts to engage in sophistry potentially by calling something that's not argument, it's a proper, well, what is the practical distinction between the two? The Morris court demands that the court engage in a functional analysis as to what's actually being provided rather than the label that the party's calling. So that's the, that's the only, um, rebuttal that I'll make to that point right there. [00:46:46] Speaker 1: Okay. But it's, that's what y'all were asking for is an open hearing until it cannot be opened anymore. [00:46:55] Speaker 2: Where there's argument or proper being made. Yes, that is public, but the presentation of documents certainly can be, can be made in chambers under, under the Lewis test. [00:47:04] Speaker 1: Okay. Mr. Clifton, you're not available. So, um, what about, what about Friday? Can we do this Friday? Tomorrow? Yeah. I mean, I like, I don't want to do it next Friday. [00:47:23] Speaker 5: I'm available tomorrow. Ms. Nelson. Your honor, may I have a brief moment to [00:47:29] Speaker 1: consult with the rest of the team? I apologize. Thank you. You can go off. Okay. Mr. Siegel, [00:47:35] Speaker 3: are you available on Friday? Thank you honor, Steve Siegel. Wait, wait, I'm just, yes or no, [00:47:45] Speaker 1: I'm just going to come back. Are you like, she's off the camera. Oh, I'm sorry. Can you look at your calendar? [00:47:57] Speaker 3: Mr. Siegel. All right. Okay. [00:47:59] Speaker 1: Mr. Siegel. All right. [00:48:29] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:48:59] Speaker 6: Thank you. [00:49:29] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:49:36] Speaker 1: Melanie, while we're off, can you show me how this works on my computer? It will. Okay. I have some testing. [00:50:08] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:50:10] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. [00:50:11] Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. [00:50:14] Speaker 1: Okay. [00:50:16] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:50:46] Speaker 3: Thank you. [00:51:16] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:52:10] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. [00:52:12] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:52:13] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. [00:52:15] Speaker 6: Thank you for the court's indulgence. I apologize for the delay. I unfortunately am out of the jurisdiction and I have a conflict tomorrow. I was trying to see if I could get coverage in order to get to Jacksonville. I'm not able to do that by tomorrow. Okay. [00:52:30] Speaker 1: I apologize. [00:52:31] Speaker 6: Okay. [00:52:32] Speaker 1: Well, um, Mr. Clifton, you are what in spotty coverage area. I think that's it. [00:52:41] Speaker 5: Your honor. I mean, you know, Wi-Fi is available almost anywhere these days, but I can't promise that I'll be able to get a full zoom and beyond. Um, I understand though that, you know, it's a conversation still hasn't happened. So I, I don't know. There's certainly not a situation where I'd like to be, you know, not able to log on or for people using. [00:53:05] Speaker 1: Signal. [00:53:06] Speaker 2: Not be able to hear. [00:53:09] Speaker 1: And you're not available until next Friday. [00:53:12] Speaker ?: Next Friday. [00:53:13] Speaker 2: Not something I can do. [00:53:16] Speaker 1: No, I understand. And I'm assuming Ms. Nelson, you wanted to be present physically, correct? Yes, your honor. [00:53:38] Speaker 6: I'm available all next week. [00:53:40] Speaker 1: Next Friday it is. All right. Um, I'll enter an order. Um, so I don't have to do some unnecessary writing. What I'm going to do is enter an order rescheduling, um, the hearing that was going to take place. Are you available next Friday, Mr. Siegel? Thank you, your honor. [00:54:16] Speaker 3: Good morning. Steve Siegel, assistant state attorney on behalf of the state. I just wanted a moment of clarification. Has the court asked the state whether or not this reported procedure is acceptable to the state? [00:54:29] Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to ask that first. Thank you for pointing that out. [00:54:32] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. The state objects to the proposed proceeding. It is still an ex parte proceeding as contemplated and the state is, uh, I object to it on behalf of the state. [00:54:42] Speaker 1: That you'd be present there. [00:54:45] Speaker 3: If there is a moment during this hearing where the court. [00:54:49] Speaker 1: Well, I will let the objection happen. It's going to be a public hearing. That's my understanding that we're going to have the hearing on Friday. [00:54:55] Speaker 3: I understood from listening to counsel that there would be a point at which if there is a matter that has been particularized, the court would meet with counsel for the defense so that they might offer to the court out of the presence of the state. They're further reasoning as to why they want that particular material. I still contemplate that as an ex parte proceed, which the state is objective. [00:55:25] Speaker 1: Okay, we keep using that word ex parte when everybody is in the room. I like I like it is an in camera review is my understanding. Um. Of materials that they were going to produce is my understanding after argument is made publicly with everybody here that would allow for objection or counterpoint before an in camera review would either be granted or not granted. [00:55:55] Speaker 3: If the honor conducts an in camera review will counsel for the defendant be present with. [00:56:01] Speaker 1: No. [00:56:02] Speaker 3: To explain. [00:56:03] Speaker 1: No, no. That's that's what I'm I'm just scratching this whole thing. Okay, which the point has been made. It would be I'll go back to my papers. I will try to articulate this the best way I can. I've already granted on EF. I'm trying to get to a point where I could do the in camera review. That's what I'm trying to do. Either I'm going to grant it or I'm not going to grant it per the rules. And so I'm going to scratch the hole. They're going to come in and make whatever proffer they can. Miss Nelson, can you do it on a provide materials and give the argument. [00:56:43] Speaker 6: Let me ask if the court or distract the direct if the court is direct to do it in that manner. We will. We will proceed in that manner. [00:56:52] Speaker 1: Yes, I am because this this has become almost. This is almost disruptive in the flow of everything. So. [00:57:02] Speaker 6: We understand the court's ruling, and we will respect it. [00:57:08] Speaker 1: I will. I will do a second amended make myself clear. So it is an I'm going to either grant an in camera review pursuant to the rules or not. They're going to make their argument here in open court. Do you. Are you objecting to that? [00:57:23] Speaker 3: Your Honor. What I would object to. If the court is going to have an open proceeding and they are to make their arguments in the state is present. I have no problem with that. The only thing that I would ever object to at this juncture until we know more specificity is any circumstance under which the defense would be present with the court without the state present to continue to make argument. A proffer whatever it may be as it relates to that and it sounds to me like the court is saying that's not going to happen. [00:57:54] Speaker 1: Correct. I'm going to correct it that there there been valid points honestly made on both sides and I for the life of me cannot find anything like this. I mean literally nothing. It's either what has been answered by the appellate courts has been something way less complicated than this. Generally speaking the state the state is the one that's doing this for like informants and things like that. Those things are held in camera, but it's a different portion of the rule. This is new territory. So I'm trying to be respectful of everyone's rights and make sure that we can have a path forward. But at this point in time it's in my in my view, I need to do the proper analysis and the procedure is being disruptive. So to the extent that I can take away that disruption as far as the procedure and make the arguments that have been made. So I think the arguments that have been made thus far related to EF different circumstance easier answer and because there was kind of extrinsic. So I think that's a good thing. [00:59:09] Speaker ?: I think that's a good thing. [00:59:09] Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. [00:59:17] Speaker ?: I think that's a good thing. [00:59:17] Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. [00:59:23] Speaker ?: I think that's a good thing. [00:59:24] Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. [00:59:27] Speaker ?: I think that's a good thing. [00:59:28] Speaker 1: I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Or depositions or anything like that. I think, you know, that's not necessarily contemplated by the rule, even though it was suggested by the state related to EF. It wasn't asked for. And then so they're saying I we only have a portion of the information. The state is arguing they have the second part of it, and I'm trying to be respectful. And if I am going to do an in camera review, I do know what cell phones are. I do know what forensic downloads look like. I don't want to be in the dark if I do grant it. So as much as it can publicly be articulated for the court, and if I grant the in camera review from there, if materiality is satisfied, then I would go to any type of particularization if that is the next step. So I'm in the order today, consistent with the arguments of counsel. Thank you. Thank you. All right. So next Friday is August. What? [01:00:46] Speaker ?: I'm sorry. [01:00:47] Speaker 1: July 31st. It'll be. Are you all available at 10 a.m.? 10 a.m.? I will make myself available. No, is it? Are you? [01:00:54] Speaker ?: Sure. [01:00:55] Speaker 1: I am. Mr. Clifton. [01:00:57] Speaker ?: Ms. Nelson. Yes, your honor. [01:00:59] Speaker 1: Thank you. [01:01:00] Speaker 3: Thank you. All right. [01:01:02] Speaker ?: 10 a.m. [01:01:02] Speaker 1: Courtroom 407. [01:01:03] Speaker 3: Right. Thank you. [01:01:05] Speaker 1: All right. 10 a.m. [01:01:07] Speaker ?: Courtroom 407. [01:01:08] Speaker 6: Right. Thank you all. [01:01:10] Speaker 1: Thank you. [01:01:11] Speaker ?: All right. [01:01:11] Speaker 1: 10 a.m. Courtroom 407. Right. [01:01:14] Speaker ?: Thank you all. [01:01:15] Speaker 1: Thank you all.