Why This Trump Leak is The Most Devastating Yet — The Daily Beast Podcast

[0:00] This is a portrait of a West Wing where it is all going wrong. [0:04] Donald Trump is in the Oval Office shouting, swearing, screaming and powerless with rage. [0:10] He's kind of like King Lear. He's a ranting mad king and it's all because, as you say, of this war which he started. [0:18] We're getting leaks because this West Wing, this administration, the staff around Donald Trump don't know what to do. [0:25] They are talking endlessly. They are gossiping endlessly about the craziness of this. [0:33] I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. It's Friday. [0:36] So it means our executive editor is here with me to debrief on the week. [0:41] What happened to those four military who died after our bombing in Iran campaign? [0:47] Where have they gone? Because they no longer are on the Pentagon website. [0:52] They've literally disappeared. Four gold star soldiers disappeared. [0:58] What's happened to the Tate brothers? Who's challenging Darlene Graham in the most nepo of all elections for senator? [1:06] There's so much to discuss. And Laura Loomer's documentary. Can you believe this? [1:11] Her documentary on Ukraine. [1:14] She's had a 180 turn and now says that America must support Ukraine. [1:20] And it turns out that MAGA is following her. [1:23] So an unexpected week. [1:26] Just a very big thank you to all of you who've subscribed. [1:30] This week we hit the milestone of 700,000 subscribers. [1:35] Thank you so much. [1:37] We love your comments. [1:38] We love the fact you subscribed. [1:40] And this is why we can have these conversations. [1:43] Because we are independent media and we rely on your support. [1:47] Okay, Hugh, tell me everything. [1:53] Hugh. [1:54] Oh my God, Joanna. [1:56] What is going on with your hair? [1:59] Oh, Hughie, this is just what we ladies do. [2:02] I've been taking tips though, to be fair, from the Daily Beast's favourite reader. [2:08] Oh, I think I can guess who you mean. [2:11] Although I did know about her tips. [2:13] Do you know who I mean? [2:14] Let's see what she's been doing this week. [2:17] What's your question? [2:18] Okay, my question is, what is something about you that nobody knows? [2:23] Other than the people that are close to you? [2:26] Um, I don't know. [2:30] Are you a funny person or are you a boring person? [2:33] I don't think people realise that I am silly. [2:37] I'm funny, I think. [2:38] Um, from a scale of one to ten. [2:41] Well, because when I'm out at the podium, I'm like, getting after it. [2:45] But I'm not like that in real life. [2:47] So, you know, you just have to get to know me to know the real me. [2:52] She's actually a total dork. [2:54] Hughie, when I'm doing the podcast, I'm like, let's get to it. [2:58] But really, I'm kind of fun and a bit of a dork. [3:02] What is she doing? [3:04] She is the press secretary. [3:06] And tonight she has the White House correspondence dinner, which has been shrunk because of, well, [3:12] we can talk about that later. [3:13] Talk about all of that later. [3:15] Yes. [3:15] Because you were in the room next door to the assassin. [3:18] I was. [3:18] Famously. [3:19] Famously. [3:19] Famously. [3:20] Um, but this, I mean, the White House press secretary is sitting around doing her hair, [3:26] finding time to do TikToks and Instagram reels while the president is wrestling with a war [3:34] he started against his base's wishes and which he cannot find a way out of. [3:40] And his enemy knows that. [3:41] Right. [3:42] It's, this is a portrait of a West Wing where it is all going wrong. [3:47] We have been learning this morning about what's going on in the Oval Office at the same time [3:53] as Caroline Leavitt is getting her hair done and giggling. [3:57] Donald Trump is in the Oval Office shouting, swearing, screaming and powerless with rage. [4:03] He's kind of like King Lear. [4:05] He's a ranting mad king. [4:07] And it's all because, as you say, of this war which he started. [4:11] So there's also something going on here because for the longest time actually we didn't get [4:16] that many leaks from the White House and Susie Wiles, his chief of staff, first woman chief [4:21] of staff, was supposed to have clamped down on leaking because we remember from the first [4:26] administration there were tons of leakers. [4:27] It was just like a sieve. [4:29] There was so much information. [4:30] And at the beginning of this administration they only leaked by accident like when Pete [4:36] Hegsworth managed to put his military classified information chat on Signal. [4:42] But what's going on now? [4:44] Because it feels chaotic. [4:45] It feels like this is out of control. [4:47] Donald Trump has no idea what to do. [4:49] He's throwing tariffs back around despite the fact the Supreme Court said no more tariffs, [4:54] dude. [4:55] So it seems like you say he's a mad king. [4:58] He seems like a president out of control. [5:00] Yes, this is absolutely, these leaks are the sign of a West Wing where things, as I said, [5:07] are going wrong but also where the control has been lost. [5:11] You're absolutely right, Joanna. [5:12] Susie Wiles was supposed to keep it all buttoned down. [5:15] And yeah, the first few months, certainly maybe the first year but definitely the very first [5:21] few months of this administration, we didn't get a lot of leaks. [5:24] And now we have a gusher, we have a gusher, I would say of oil, but of course you can't [5:31] get oil anymore, can you? [5:32] And it's too expensive. [5:34] And nobody can afford their oil anymore. [5:37] $100 a gallon for the key measure of oil. [5:41] That's what Donald Trump had said. [5:42] Oh, oil will go back down. [5:45] Everything will be fine. [5:46] It hasn't. [5:47] Gas will go back down. [5:48] Everything will be fine. [5:49] So over $4 a gallon again. [5:51] And it is going up. [5:53] And yeah, we're getting leaks because this West Wing, this administration, the staff [5:58] around Donald Trump don't know what to do. [6:00] They are talking endlessly. [6:01] They are gossiping endlessly about the craziness of this. [6:06] I thought that Michael Wolff's point about Lindsey Graham, that Lindsey Graham was in [6:11] public slavish to Donald Trump, but in private, he was a source for almost everybody and telling [6:18] people. [6:19] I'm now wondering who is the leaker in the White House? [6:23] Caroline, in between hairdos, you might want to find that out. [6:28] Well, they're taking this idea that there's leakers in the White House so seriously that [6:32] they've asked people to hand over their phones. [6:34] Kash Patel has been involved in this. [6:36] Oh, do you think Kash Patel is leaking? [6:38] I have no idea, Joanna, but I'm sure he can look the president straight in the eye and tell [6:45] him that he is not leaking. [6:47] Straight in the eyes. [6:48] His big, big eyes. [6:49] His eyes that always seem to be like... [6:51] And the hunt for this, this idea that there are leakers has animated Donald Trump since [6:57] the moment that he came down the golden escalator. [6:59] Do you think it's him leaking about himself? [7:01] We know. [7:01] That Trump is furious? [7:02] Because we know he used to do that. [7:04] We know. [7:05] We know that he used to do it. [7:06] We know he used to be John Barron. [7:08] We know from every book that's been written about him that he has been a source of many [7:15] of these leaks. [7:16] I'll just say we don't know, obviously, what the source of the latest leaks are. [7:20] I think what we can say is that these leaks don't offer anything positive for Donald Trump. [7:25] The idea that Donald Trump is in the Oval Office shouting that the Iranians are effing [7:30] scumbags, effing lunatics, and that the only option is to go and bomb them harder and harder [7:37] doesn't reflect well on Donald Trump. [7:39] This isn't a strategic mind at work. [7:41] It could also be Donald Trump. [7:43] As we know, when he's not in the Oval Office or he's not on the golf course, and obviously [7:48] he spends a lot of time on the golf course, he's always on the phone to a circuit of people. [7:54] And we've talked about, I mean, Anthony Scaramucci talks about when he was on the rotor of phone [7:59] calls. [7:59] So it's possible that he's telling people and saying, oh, you know, they're just scum. [8:04] I can't bear the Iranians. [8:05] They're just terrible. [8:06] And that's how it also gets out because the people he calls then tell journalists and [8:11] other people, right? [8:12] Of course. [8:12] And one of the, I think the hallmark of this Trump administration the second time around [8:16] is that his phone habits are out of control. [8:19] We had testimony, I suppose, is one way to put it this week from Tom. [8:24] Holman, who is the border czar. [8:26] I think people will be familiar with this. [8:28] I think he's nicknamed Mr. Dorito, right? [8:32] Because he was allegedly caught taking $50,000 in cash in a bag of Doritos, which the FBI was [8:39] investigating. [8:40] And Donald Trump shut that right down. [8:42] And I just, as a small observation, I've never, to my knowledge, seen $50,000 in cash, [8:48] but it fits in a bag of Doritos. [8:51] Kind of surprising. [8:52] Could have been a family pet. [8:53] Could have been a family pet. [8:55] Could have been in hundreds. [8:56] With those different flavors. [8:57] You know, it's surprisingly small $50,000 when you see it in hundreds. [9:03] I'll take you a word for it. [9:05] Tom Holman described how Donald Trump phones him at 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. [9:09] And these are not casual conversations. [9:12] He is dictating policy. [9:13] He is telling. [9:14] Donald Trump is the chief executive. [9:17] He is telling the people who work for him what to do. [9:19] Now, we know at The Daily Beast, we have relentlessly chronicled the unhealthiness of doing your business at 2 and 3 and 4 in the morning. [9:29] And that's what Donald Trump is doing. [9:31] He is phoning people. [9:32] Marco Rubio has said he phones 2 in the morning. [9:35] They all complain about going on the plane with him because they say they can't get any sleep. [9:39] And now they're complaining about going on the plane with him because the new plane doesn't have enough security. [9:44] They're also increasingly the target of potential assassination attacks. [9:50] Yes, and we've got a fascinating insight. [9:52] And again, this has leaked. [9:54] This is a matter of security. [9:58] And people in Washington, D.C. are obsessed by security and always say, oh, we don't talk about security. [10:03] We know more about the security questions over this White House and the people around it than we've ever known before. [10:10] Ever. [10:10] And this time, we learn that they're being told not to take, those closest to Trump are being told not to take car services in case the Iranians use that to target them. [10:22] I'll just say, it kind of speaks to the out-of-touchness of this White House that people in it are using car services. [10:29] Well, what would you want them to use? [10:31] Oh, city bikes? [10:33] There's an excellent bike share scheme in Washington, D.C., which I've used. [10:36] And Washington, D.C., has an excellent metro system, which we've all, everybody can see. [10:41] But that would make them even more targets, wouldn't it, if they're being followed? [10:45] Well, after they're targeted, this is a question. [10:48] But the fact that they are routinely seeing their commute through the elitist way of getting around, behind smoke glass, driven in the backseat, [11:00] these are not people that are in touch with ordinary people. [11:02] And I think this speaks to a very, very important point about what's happening inside this administration. [11:08] They appear to have lost touch with ordinary concerns. [11:13] Donald Trump, remember, said he did not care about inflation. [11:16] And if you are living in an elitist world, as he does, he's a billionaire. [11:21] He's always flown in, not always, but he's flown in his own private jet for decades. [11:25] If you are beginning to live in that sort of world, how do you stay in touch with what normal people experience? [11:32] But just in terms of the vulnerability of his aides and the people who are supposed to be targeted, [11:37] is the idea that the Iranians are somehow in their cell phones, knowing when their car is going to come? [11:43] I mean, what is the point of failure here that the Iranians are following people's routines? [11:53] Well, there's long been suggestions, claims, allegations that Iran has sleeper cells in the United States. [12:00] And let's be honest, they've never been activated. [12:03] So we don't know. [12:06] But there have been people who have been prosecuted. [12:08] There have been attempts to murder the enemies of Iran on American soil before. [12:13] The point of failure here would be you can work out where a member of Trump's inner circle is from their cell phone communications with a car service, [12:24] as opposed to a government car service or one assumes Uber, Lyft are probably more secure because you're not doing it on open text messages. [12:34] The ability to infiltrate phones is something they believe the Iranians have. [12:39] And the casualties in the Middle East, among the concerns that exist about that, [12:45] is that it's entirely possible the Iranians are using cell site location of American cell phone numbers [12:50] to work out where they should target their missiles. [12:54] Can I just say, I used to have a car service when I worked in fashion, [12:57] especially during the fashion shows, and it was a wonderful thing. [13:02] I had a driver called Serge, who was from the Russian military, [13:07] who always managed to get the nearest possible parking space when you were coming out of a show. [13:12] So you would come running out of a show because you had to go to the next one. [13:15] They were very badly scheduled. [13:17] And Serge would always be there in the front car. [13:21] He was a miracle worker. [13:22] Anyway, that's beside the point. [13:24] So, more targets on Americans, and yet, what is this story that we had this morning [13:33] that there were fewer military deaths now than there were last week? [13:37] Four deaths have disappeared off the Pentagon website. [13:40] Well, as we know, since these hostilities started back at the end of February, [13:49] the United States has lost 18 members of the armed forces. [13:52] And that's, you know, that's a group of people who, in ordinary times, would be honoured as war dead. [14:03] And this morning, or late last night, we learned that the latest four casualties [14:09] had disappeared from the Pentagon's website, which displays them as, you know, as casualties. [14:15] And people rightly want to know who has sacrificed themselves, who have given their lives their last measure of devotion. [14:24] And we suddenly have this disappearance. [14:27] And the reason that the Pentagon is given is extraordinary. [14:31] It is that, in fact, the United States was not at war with Iran at the time. [14:35] So these are not wartime casualties. [14:37] This was because we had a ceasefire in place. [14:39] Because there was a ceasefire in place, and because the President had written to Congress and said, [14:46] oh, we're not at war anymore, and therefore, any casualties are not of war. [14:52] So is this just a fudging to make it look like there are fewer casualties than there actually are? [14:58] I think yes, and I think also... [15:00] Did they think nobody would notice? [15:02] What about the parents of the four people that have disappeared? [15:05] These are gold star parents who are being told that they are not gold star parents. [15:08] I mean, I don't think you can get any more profoundly disturbing and weird. [15:12] How is that, appreciating the warrior class, Pete Hegseth, out there with your vaccination to give everybody extra testosterone? [15:20] How does this honour the warrior? [15:23] Well, I mean, quite clearly, Joanna, and veterans are talking about that this morning. [15:27] It doesn't. [15:28] The, you know, I think one of the hallmarks of the United States way of life is to honour the war dead. [15:37] Right, and the process, their dignified transfer, which not every country has, [15:41] and which is an amazing, an amazing thing to thank people for the ultimate duty. [15:46] Yes, and I think for many Presidents, it has been a humbling moment, [15:50] an encounter between them and the ultimate price that the decisions they have made draw on people who work for the United States. [16:03] They don't work for the President. [16:04] The President's the Commander-in-Chief. [16:06] They work for the United States. [16:07] They work for every one of the United States' 360 million citizens. [16:11] And that moment at Dover, where they see those coffins being unloaded, is profoundly emotional. [16:18] But it is a profound moment of recognition that this is a country that believes in honouring those people. [16:24] To remove those names from that rule of honour is, it's just astonishing. [16:29] And I should say, sitting with these names in front of me so that I get them right, [16:33] but in the last week, the United States has lost four soldiers. [16:38] Private Isabella Gonzalez, 19. [16:40] From Texas. [16:41] Texas. [16:43] Sergeant Angel Rampersad, who was from Queens in New York. [16:47] Lieutenant Tyler Feehan, who was from Hawaii. [16:50] And Sergeant Michael Swinton, who was killed. [16:53] I'll just point out here, the first three casualties were killed by a missile strike. [16:59] Sergeant Swinton was disposing of a drone. [17:02] And in Iraq, both of these places, the first missile strike was in Jordan. [17:07] The drone strike was in Iraq. [17:09] This is not a military that, the Iranian military is not a military that has been degraded to the point [17:15] at which it cannot attack Americans. [17:17] In fact, it killed four of them. [17:18] And that's why Trump is raging in the Oval Office. [17:21] And they're pretending that, oh, if we just don't count them and we come up with some nonsensical word salad [17:29] about, oh, we weren't really at war, the point is these men and women would not have died [17:34] had Trump not started his bombing campaign in Iran. [17:37] Yeah. [17:38] And it's also worth saying that this is all about this White House. [17:42] And we started with Caroline Leavitt. [17:44] This White House is all about communications. [17:47] It's all about the presentation. [17:50] And the presentation of 18 deaths is worse than the presentation of 14 deaths. [17:54] Well, and disappearing four soldiers will turn out to be worse for them than just keeping them on the road. [18:01] Major communications blunder. [18:03] And similarly, we were talking about Trump raging. [18:06] He was raging about the fact that his insecure Air Force One had been leaked. [18:11] He wasn't raging that Air Force One was insecure. [18:14] He was raging that this had been leaked. [18:16] And that's what a lot of this is. [18:18] It's the fact that the communications are what obsess people rather than the substance. [18:23] Well, interestingly, they had the New York Times leaked the original story about Air Force One, [18:30] the new Air Force One, the grift force one, as we say every time we talk together. [18:34] Every time, grift force one. [18:34] Your phrase, grift force one, because it's based on the plane that was given from Qatar, a $400 million gift. [18:41] It's an amazing backstory. [18:43] No, it's an amazing backstory. [18:43] As you were pointing out to Michael Wolff. [18:45] Well, and we've all forgotten about it. [18:47] Although Laura Loomer, who we're going to come to in a moment, [18:49] Laura Loomer, even she said that this was too much of a grift. [18:54] But we know the plane has had to be retroactively fitted with all sorts of security, you know, paraphernalia. [19:01] Maxed out was the words used by the present. [19:07] Something I normally hear with a credit card. [19:10] With a credit card or it's looks maxing and young men are breaking their jaws. [19:16] There is the weird trendy, yes. [19:16] Yes, which I don't recommend. [19:19] If anybody's out there with a hammer thinking of breaking their jaw, stick to Caroline Lovett's hair tips. [19:25] So, Laura Loomer. [19:26] Laura Loomer, who was last seen saying that she had it on very good authority [19:32] and the White House was not shutting her down, that Mitch McConnell was in a vegetative state. [19:39] She's now produced a documentary from Ukraine. [19:44] I know this is, Laura Loomer is a sort of Zelig-like figure in this Trump administration. [19:50] She doesn't do Caroline Lovett's hair, but she's pretty much got a finger in every other pie here. [19:56] And you will know, we all know that for the last five years, MAGA has been obsessed by basically wanting Ukraine to give up, surrender to Russia. [20:10] They have been full of conspiracy theories. [20:12] They have hated Vladimir Zelensky, the Ukrainian president. [20:16] They have smeared him as a pain addict. [20:19] They have claimed that he's stealing all the aid. [20:21] And they have gone wild with the idea that there should be no weapons given to Ukraine, [20:26] something that J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth continue to advance. [20:31] But Laura Loomer, who had been at the heart of this, made a really extraordinary journey this week. [20:37] She went to Ukraine. [20:39] To get to Ukraine, of course, as we know, you don't fly direct. [20:41] You have to get a train from the Polish border. [20:44] She documented all this, and she has had a Damaskin, a Kievan conversion. [20:50] She now says that the Ukrainians are the good guys, that the Christians of Ukraine are being persecuted by the Russian attacks, [20:59] which has been a big MAGA talking point, by the way, about Christian persecution, [21:05] and that Putin was standing up for Christians. [21:07] I mean, quite obviously, this is crazy, but she had been pushing this. [21:12] She says, no, I got it all wrong. [21:13] She sat down with Volodymyr Zelensky, who obviously scented an amazing turn of view here, [21:22] which he wants to clearly turn to his advantage. [21:26] And she is going to come back, show this documentary, and evangelise for the people of Ukraine. [21:35] And I think she got caught in an air raid too, right? [21:37] Which will also do a lot. [21:39] When you actually see the reality of war on the ground, it's very different than when she's sitting in the middle of the country, [21:45] just, you know, posting away about something that she has zero experience. [21:50] And I think the thing that we should take away from this conversion is over the last few months, [21:58] our colleagues at Daily Beast, particularly Alison Quinn, [22:01] who for a long time lived in Russia, then Ukraine, and now lives much more safely in the United States, [22:08] have been documenting how the Ukrainians are not being defeated. [22:13] And in fact, they are beginning to cripple the Russian economy in a way that people did not foresee. [22:18] They have executed drone strikes on oil production, on Russia's version of Amazon, [22:26] because that's how the Russians were moving around parts for their drones. [22:30] They have made, I think, Vladimir Putin concerned that he might get overthrown. [22:38] He's living in a bunker all the time, Alison was revealing yesterday, on a live stream, [22:42] which you can find on this YouTube channel. [22:44] Go back and watch it. [22:45] It's fascinating. [22:46] And clearly, there is a question over momentum here. [22:50] And MAGA doesn't like, you know, MAGA doesn't like losing. [22:53] If it does lose, it says you've cheated. [22:55] But if Vladimir Putin becomes a loser, they don't want anything to do with them. [22:59] And we had a sign this morning that not just Laura Loomer is on this train, [23:05] that there's a comedian called Tim Poole. [23:07] He has a vast MAGA audience. [23:10] He turned himself around as well and says, yeah, I know back Ukraine. [23:13] So, and we know that Vladimir Zelensky is coming to Washington next week. [23:18] He's expected to have a meeting with Donald Trump. [23:21] He's coming for Lindsey Graham's funeral memorial. [23:25] And we know that Lindsey Graham, despite the 180 on Trump, having called him a Froot Loop, [23:32] and that, you know, he was out after January the 6th. [23:35] And then, of course, we discovered that 40 minutes later, he was straight back on the phone call, [23:39] saying, I don't know why I said that. [23:41] That wasn't me. [23:41] I don't know what I was thinking. [23:42] He was straight back in there. [23:45] But the one thing he has been consistent on is Ukraine should win this war. [23:51] The U.S. should support Ukraine. [23:53] This is a gateway opportunity for the Russians to go into Europe if the Americans don't do something. [23:59] And, of course, the Ukrainians have armed themselves with drone, learned drone technology, [24:04] and proved, like, unfortunately, it turns out Iran has proved, [24:08] that just because you invade a smaller power with, in theory, a bigger military does not mean you win the war. [24:14] No, and we saw that this week, actually, when Pete Hegseth was in front of the Senate. [24:18] We all saw John Ossoff's forensic destruction of Pete Hegseth. [24:24] He reduced him to a stuttering mess. [24:25] But some other senators were asking Pete Hegseth about, [24:29] why are you not taking advice from Ukraine? [24:31] Why have you not gone and got every bit of help you can from Ukraine? [24:35] And the quid pro quo is Ukraine needs weapons. [24:39] And Pete Hegseth's response was to go back to this MAGA talking point of, [24:43] we sent all our weapons to Ukraine, and that was the woke Joe Biden. [24:47] I'm using, you know, a sort of a steef of his words here. [24:50] But this was bad and that America lost out. [24:54] And these senators were absolutely robust in pointing out to him that Ukraine has the technology [24:59] and the knowledge to prevent the sort of drone attacks that led to the death this week, [25:05] over the last few days alone, of Sergeant Michael Swinton, [25:08] and have injured many, many more troops in the Middle East. [25:13] And the lack of understanding, I think, of that in MAGA, [25:17] that have come to this point, is intriguing, [25:20] because now we have these voices saying the opposite, [25:23] saying, let's ally ourselves properly with Ukraine, let's beat Russia. [25:26] And let's get this done. [25:28] I mean, remember Donald Trump saying, [25:30] oh, I'm going to solve this war on the first day that I'm there. [25:32] And of course, he's discovered he can't possibly do that. [25:35] They've got no diplomats in the region. [25:37] Right, Steve Wyckoff and Jared Kushner have no idea what they're doing. [25:40] They're just casting around for business deals. [25:43] And also this cover story that the reason that Pete Hegseth needs the $1.5 trillion [25:50] to run the Pentagon, a man who literally was drummed out of his previous two jobs, [25:57] running veteran affairs organizations under accusations of financial mismanagement, [26:03] as well as intoxication at work, are something that we've talked about a lot before. [26:08] But the idea that this cover story of why we need the money is because, [26:13] oh, we've sent all our weapons to it to Ukraine. [26:16] We've run out of weapons. [26:17] I mean, the whole thing is... [26:19] Of course, it's a nonsensical cover story. [26:21] But there are real concerns that there is a lack of supply of munitions, [26:26] particularly defensive munitions, for the Middle East. [26:29] And we saw in the last few days this attempt to step up bombing on Iran [26:35] in the belief that this will bring them to the table, [26:38] which obviously hasn't helped so far. [26:40] They deployed B-1B Lancers for the first time, I think, in four months. [26:45] Because the use of these heavier and heavier munitions is partly [26:49] because there are real concerns about supply chains. [26:52] But it's just a consistent theme in American foreign policy [26:55] that America underestimates any other country. [26:59] It just believes in itself so much. [27:01] And it's the disadvantage of America's self-confidence, [27:05] which is one of the reasons I think we both moved here. [27:07] There's the sense of energy and positivity. [27:09] Absolutely. [27:09] You can't do anything here. [27:11] The inverse of that is the refusal to understand other countries, [27:16] refusal to learn other languages, [27:19] and a refusal to believe that other countries have the ability [27:21] to fight back effectively. [27:24] Absolutely, Joanna. [27:25] And the Middle East has been a quagmire for the United States, [27:30] Afghanistan, Iraq. [27:33] Now we have Iran. [27:34] And just to mention that Trump, this week, [27:37] we had another leak that he was thirsting, basically, [27:41] to go to war in another country completely. [27:43] Oh, good Lord. [27:44] Good Lord. [27:44] In Mali. [27:44] Well, in Mali? [27:46] Yes. [27:47] And Mali is in North West Africa. [27:51] France got out of their forever war after 12 years there. [27:54] Do you think he's confused Mali with Bali? [27:57] And he thinks it'll be easy to bomb Bali [27:58] because Bali's a peace-loving nation. [28:00] They won't see it coming. [28:01] That's entirely possible. [28:02] Isn't it possible? [28:03] I think it's possible. [28:04] I can see him on the beach in Bali. [28:06] Right. [28:07] Just, you know, sort of bombs. [28:08] We've had enough of the flowers, the purple flowers. [28:10] I don't want the purple flowers everywhere. [28:12] They wouldn't want the purple flowers. [28:12] No. [28:13] They're peace-loving people. [28:14] We'll eat in and out, in and out, like Venezuela. [28:17] Oh, it'll just be, what a disaster. [28:20] All right, so, Lindsey Graham's funeral, Memorial, [28:23] what do we know about it, [28:24] other than Darlene appears to be ready to take his seat? [28:28] Well, it's going to be quite a spectacle. [28:30] He is going to be in the capital, [28:32] so there was going to be processions of people to come and honour him. [28:36] We believe that Zelensky is going to be there, [28:38] not 100% confirmed, [28:40] but I think that's almost certain. [28:43] It would be very surprising if he doesn't come. [28:46] We know that Benjamin Netanyahu has been wanting to come [28:48] and wants to come and see Donald Trump in Washington. [28:52] We also know from this leak from the Oval Office [28:55] that Donald Trump doesn't want to see Benjamin Netanyahu [28:58] because he's annoyed and he feels that Netanyahu dragged him [29:03] into this war in the Middle East. [29:05] Netanyahu, I think, would give a very different version of events. [29:07] Right. [29:07] But we are going to see a lot of people come to Washington [29:12] and, as you say, Darlene, the newly installed senator, [29:16] she's newly dropped her married name. [29:18] She is only calling herself Darlene Graham. [29:22] She is going to hope that this is an occasion [29:24] that propels her into the primary [29:27] and gets the six-year Senate seat. [29:31] It's a pretty extraordinary spectacle. [29:33] It's two weeks between the tragic death of her brother, [29:36] her swearing in as a senator, [29:38] her being revealed by the Daily Beast's swamp newsletter [29:42] to have made a donation [29:43] to a pro-choice Republican state senator. [29:47] That was a great exclusive by the swamp newsletter, by the way. [29:50] It was fantastic. [29:51] And it has caused a lot of problems with Darlene. [29:54] Our swamp newsletter comes out every Tuesday, every Wednesday, [29:57] and it follows the money. [30:00] It does the thing that every journalist in D.C. should do, [30:02] follow the money. [30:03] We followed the money, [30:04] and we found her only political donation [30:07] is to State Senator Kate Sheely. [30:11] And the significance of this is that this is a state senator [30:14] who filibustered, a Republican state senator, [30:17] who filibustered a very draconian abortion ban in South Carolina. [30:21] And we then discovered a second donation [30:24] that Darlene made using an alternate spelling of her name. [30:31] Darlene usually spells it D-A-R-L-I-N-E. [30:36] She is legally Darlene, D-A-R-L-E-N-E. [30:40] But she says that Lindsey Graham taught her to spell it with an I, [30:43] so that's what she uses. [30:45] Anyway, she made a second donation [30:47] after the state senator filibustered the abortion law, [30:52] another $100. [30:53] These are the only donations she's only ever donated to one person, [30:57] and it is the state senator. [30:59] And, yeah, it's caused eruptions. [31:02] Right, because what she was trying to do [31:03] was leave the door open for women to have abortions for both longer. [31:08] This covered time and circumstances. [31:11] Right, time and circumstances, [31:13] which, of course, is a huge deal [31:14] because Lindsey Graham was completely anti-abortion. [31:17] Yeah, he... [31:18] He was a hardliner. [31:19] He was very hardliner. [31:19] He was a man that had no apparent relationships, so... [31:24] Well, he did date Laura Ingraham in the late 90s. [31:26] Oh, did he? [31:27] I didn't know that. [31:27] Good Lord. [31:28] Good for you, Lindsey Graham. [31:30] I'd rather you than me. [31:31] But for a man that didn't appear to have any sexual relations, [31:35] I say didn't appear to, [31:36] because who knows what he was doing, [31:39] he was very keen on others [31:41] being held to account punitively if they did. [31:45] Well, I think the important point about this is [31:48] he was very, very aware [31:50] of the South Carolina Republican political base. [31:54] And that political base is very, very against abortion. [31:58] And he was aware of that. [31:59] He courted that. [32:00] And this, when he was in with Trump, [32:02] he was out with Trump, [32:02] that didn't really matter [32:03] because in South Carolina, [32:05] he always had the solid calling card [32:07] of saying, [32:08] I am a pro-life senator. [32:10] And he proposed numerous laws [32:14] before the overturning of Roe versus Wade. [32:17] So basically every year from 2013 onwards, [32:20] he proposed some form of abortion ban [32:22] and some were more draconian than others. [32:24] None of these were ever going to pass the Senate. [32:26] So really this was about positioning. [32:28] Right, it was performative. [32:29] But will Darlene... [32:30] And she has performed the opposite now. [32:32] Right. [32:32] Well, she hasn't... [32:33] I mean, she did it as a private citizen quietly, right? [32:37] Yes. [32:37] Clearly didn't want people to know [32:39] because it would have been embarrassing for her brother. [32:40] But do we think that she will be contested in this election? [32:45] Are people stepping forward? [32:46] Yes, she absolutely will be. [32:48] The wildest candidate that you could possibly come up with [32:51] in South Carolina has already stepped forward. [32:54] It is Mark Sanford. [32:56] Mark Sanford, who used to be the governor, [32:59] who went, of course, on his Appalachian Trail walk. [33:03] Yes. [33:04] And in fact, it turned out, [33:06] had a relationship, at least as far as we know, [33:10] with Olivia Nuzzi. [33:12] Olivia Nuzzi, the journalist from New York Magazine [33:15] and then Vanity Fair, [33:16] who was a digital lover of RFK Jr. [33:20] Yes. [33:21] And, you know, I don't know, [33:23] are there no second acts in American public life? [33:26] He's back. [33:28] He is going to run for this Senate seat. [33:31] And he says he's better qualified. [33:33] And hey... [33:34] He is better qualified. [33:36] He was a congressman. [33:37] He is a NEPO candidate. [33:38] A NEPO candidate. [33:40] But it's likely that... [33:42] It's therefore likely that others [33:43] will throw their hats more firmly in the ring. [33:45] There have been three or four other names [33:46] that have floated around, [33:48] but none of them have immediately gone in on it. [33:50] He has. [33:52] Now, clearly, [33:52] if you're a more serious politician in South Carolina, [33:55] you might be like, [33:56] oh, I don't think Mark Sanford's a great idea. [33:58] And you might go in yourself. [34:00] One of the things that's worth pointing out here [34:01] is South Carolina has runoff laws. [34:05] So Darlene has put her name in for the primary. [34:10] If there are more than two candidates, [34:12] then the winning candidate in the first round [34:15] has to get above 50%. [34:17] Otherwise, there's a runoff. [34:18] So this could... [34:19] This would... [34:19] Which would take place two weeks later. [34:22] So this could actually run in well into August. [34:25] And, of course, the election's only in November. [34:27] And this is not what you need [34:29] if you're the Republicans. [34:31] It's kind of messy. [34:32] Right. [34:32] Think of it as a deep red state, [34:34] but even deep red southern states [34:35] have yielded surprises. [34:37] And we've got Mitch McConnell's seat, [34:39] which is effectively empty. [34:40] Well, Darlene is sitting as a senator [34:42] until the start of January [34:44] in Lindsey Graham's already, [34:46] you know, his normal term. [34:48] Lindsey Graham was up for re-election. [34:50] He was going to run again in November. [34:52] So she has put in for that six-year term, [34:56] which would start at the start of January. [34:58] The election would be in November. [35:00] There's a primary in August. [35:02] There could be a runoff later in August. [35:05] But in the meantime, she can vote. [35:06] She has been voting. [35:07] She's been doing what Mitch McConnell can't. [35:11] Mitch McConnell. [35:12] Let's talk about Mitch McConnell. [35:13] Forty days and forty nights. [35:14] Yes. [35:15] As we pointed out, [35:16] a biblical absence from Washington. [35:19] Yes. [35:20] Can he speak? [35:21] Is Laura Loomer right? [35:23] Is Mitch McConnell in a vegetative state? [35:26] Well, first of all, [35:29] we haven't heard from him, have we? [35:30] But we do have some new information [35:33] from Scott Jennings, [35:35] which we can play now. [35:36] Scott Jennings, [35:37] have you had another phone call [35:38] with the former majority leader recently? [35:42] Phone call? [35:42] No. [35:43] Have you traded? [35:45] Do you know anything new about his condition [35:47] that you can update us with? [35:48] Well, I know he continues [35:50] to do his rehab activities. [35:52] I know he's still following doctor's orders. [35:54] And my assumption is sometime [35:57] between now and Monday, [36:00] they'll probably issue another update [36:02] on how he's coming along. [36:04] I don't know if they've made any decisions [36:06] about whether he's going to be cleared [36:08] to come back to work or not. [36:09] But I would be surprised [36:11] if we don't hear from them again [36:13] by the weekend or by Monday. [36:15] If I were Mitch McConnell's doctor, [36:17] I would think it was quite stressful [36:19] for Mitch McConnell and his family [36:21] to have to deal with rumours [36:23] that he's essentially comatose. [36:25] Why don't they issue [36:27] a 10-second video saying, [36:29] hi, I'm Mitch McConnell. [36:30] Thank you for your good wishes. [36:32] I'm working hard at rehab [36:33] and I will be back soon. [36:35] That's all anybody needs. [36:38] Yeah, we, [36:39] I just say the Daily Beast, [36:40] and I just want to say [36:41] to our subscribers, [36:43] thank you. [36:44] Because of our subscribers, [36:46] we have been able to do [36:47] what, let's be honest, [36:48] other people have not done. [36:50] Ask these questions. [36:50] We've been to the hospital. [36:52] We've seen the security detail. [36:54] We have tried to track down [36:56] the people that are, [36:58] that know the answers. [36:59] Well, and the security detail [37:00] is parked outside the hospital, [37:02] these huge black SUVs. [37:04] Yes, and we are paying. [37:05] We are paying for this healthcare. [37:06] We are paying for this. [37:07] And we've, you know, [37:08] I've mentioned this before, Joanna, [37:11] there is medical privacy. [37:12] There is also the question of, [37:14] he's a senator. [37:14] He has huge powers. [37:16] Where is he? [37:16] So we haven't had a video. [37:18] We've had no new statement. [37:20] Terry Cammack, [37:21] who is his chief of staff, [37:22] a long-time aide, [37:23] paid $226,000 a year. [37:26] He's finally spotted [37:27] in the corridors [37:27] of the Senate this week. [37:29] Absolutely nothing to say. [37:31] He was peppered with questions. [37:33] He didn't say a thing. [37:33] So what's the actual [37:35] conspiracy theory here? [37:37] That the senator [37:38] is actually unable to speak? [37:41] I think that many people [37:43] have this very reasonable suspicion [37:44] that the senator [37:45] is unable to speak. [37:45] And if you listen [37:46] to what Scott Jennings said, [37:48] he hasn't been, [37:49] Scott Jennings now says [37:51] he hasn't had a phone. [37:52] The question was incomplete, [37:54] but he clearly has not [37:55] been exchanging texts [37:56] with Mitch McConnell. [37:58] It is possible [37:58] that his condition has worsened. [38:01] It is also possible [38:02] that he never had this call [38:03] in the first place. [38:05] You know, [38:06] all we have is his word for it. [38:07] He's never shared [38:08] any phone records. [38:09] CNN disowned his version [38:12] and said that's [38:13] his personal recollection, [38:14] not our fact-checked [38:17] and verified reporting. [38:18] So in that situation, [38:20] the chief of staff [38:21] of the senator [38:22] becomes incredibly powerful. [38:24] He is the person [38:24] who liaises with other senators, [38:26] with other chiefs of staff. [38:27] And I'll just say [38:28] there is a real-world effect [38:30] going on here. [38:32] Republicans are beginning [38:33] to warn that they are paralyzed [38:35] on some really, [38:36] really important things, [38:38] not just for appointing [38:40] Trump's people, [38:41] which is, you know, [38:42] part of their job, [38:43] but for real, [38:44] that will have [38:44] real-world consequences. [38:46] A government shutdown. [38:47] The farm bill. [38:48] The farm bill funds [38:50] subsidies to farms [38:51] which allow us to eat. [38:53] And if this bill is, [38:54] every year, [38:55] it is a must-pass bill. [38:56] Defense and the farm bill [38:57] are must-pass. [38:59] Mitch McConnell [38:59] is critical to these efforts [39:01] and he's not there. [39:03] And his vote doesn't exist. [39:05] And if his vote doesn't exist, [39:06] it might not happen. [39:07] So there's a real possibility [39:08] that we are beginning [39:09] to get moved towards [39:10] some sort of government shutdown. [39:12] Where is Mitch? [39:13] If he can't speak, [39:14] he can't vote. [39:15] And we're about to go into [39:17] the six-week-long break [39:20] that senators take [39:21] over the summer, correct? [39:22] Yes. [39:23] I love how these politicians [39:25] award themselves [39:26] the best healthcare, [39:28] the ability to take [39:29] unlimited time off work [39:30] without telling anybody [39:31] what they're doing. [39:32] Witness Tom Keene, [39:34] the congressman in New Jersey [39:35] who disappeared [39:36] for months on end. [39:38] I mean, [39:38] he missed how many votes? [39:39] It's 146 votes. [39:41] Yes. [39:42] This is not what people [39:43] voted him in for. [39:45] Yes, happily, [39:46] happily, [39:47] because he said [39:48] that he'd been off [39:48] because he was depressed. [39:50] He wasn't so depressed [39:51] that he couldn't carry out [39:53] some investment trades. [39:55] It's the trading [39:55] that keeps him going. [39:56] It's the trading [39:57] that kept him positive. [39:59] It's just astonishing to me. [40:01] And then, of course, [40:02] they have great healthcare [40:03] and they have [40:03] very long holidays. [40:05] Who doesn't want [40:06] to run for office? [40:07] Well, [40:07] the House, [40:09] by the way, [40:10] is firing up the jets [40:12] this morning [40:12] to get out of town. [40:14] They're coming back [40:14] maybe five weeks' time [40:15] and they won't do [40:17] anything in between. [40:18] Independent media [40:19] has nothing [40:20] on being a senator [40:21] or a congressperson [40:22] in America. [40:24] And I know [40:24] there are lots [40:25] of very good politicians [40:26] out there. [40:26] As we've just mentioned, [40:27] John Ossoff [40:28] is doing a fantastic job [40:30] and has obviously [40:31] clearly risen up [40:33] the democratic, [40:34] hopeful ladder [40:35] for 2028. [40:36] So, final question. [40:38] Epstein has crept [40:40] back onto the schedule, [40:41] I've noticed. [40:42] I mean, [40:42] I felt as if [40:44] Donald Trump [40:45] had actually won [40:46] the Epstein files [40:47] at one point, [40:48] but the Oversight Committee [40:49] had Jess Staley [40:50] back in today, [40:51] the former [40:51] J.P. Morgan executive [40:53] and former CEO [40:54] of Barclays Bank. [40:56] An astonishingly [40:57] high scalp [40:58] for the Epstein case [40:59] and a mystery death [41:01] of a model agent [41:03] who was very close [41:05] to Jeffrey Epstein [41:06] and supplied him [41:07] with girls [41:08] as hundreds of emails [41:10] have revealed. [41:11] Yeah. [41:12] It's been Epstein week. [41:14] It never goes away. [41:15] And again, [41:15] if we go back [41:16] to that Oval Office, [41:17] another reason to rage. [41:19] This week, [41:20] as you say, [41:20] Jess Staley [41:21] was in front of the House [41:22] of members of Congress [41:24] in a brief appearance [41:26] of them [41:28] from their holidays. [41:30] But the more significant thing [41:32] is this mystery death [41:33] of Daniel Siad. [41:35] Daniel Siad was found [41:36] at his home [41:37] in a suburb of Paris [41:38] called Colombe. [41:40] And we still don't know [41:41] why he died, [41:42] but this is another [41:44] suspicious, [41:45] weird twist [41:47] in the Epstein case. [41:48] He was being investigated [41:49] by the French authorities. [41:51] He'd been accused himself [41:52] of a rape [41:53] back in the... [41:54] that he allegedly committed [41:56] in the 90s [41:57] against the Swedish model. [41:58] And he was being investigated [42:00] on grounds [42:02] of supplying [42:02] to Epstein [42:04] women who let... [42:05] or girls, [42:06] obviously, [42:07] at the time [42:07] who were sexually exploited [42:09] by Epstein. [42:10] And some of the emails [42:11] that he sent [42:11] are really just so depressing [42:13] and they're things like [42:13] if you promise her [42:14] that you'll get her [42:15] a modelling job, [42:16] she will be easy. [42:17] I mean, [42:17] it's just a terrible, [42:19] terrible indictment [42:20] of the whole modelling business. [42:22] Yeah. [42:23] One that obviously [42:24] you know far better [42:25] than I do, Joanna, [42:26] but I'm a real... [42:28] There's a real question mark [42:28] here about the French authorities, [42:30] about why had he not been arrested. [42:32] They say they didn't have the evidence. [42:33] He had protested his innocence, [42:35] but those emails [42:36] were stomach-churning [42:39] on their own terms. [42:42] And they are not [42:43] the similar [42:44] Jess Staley situation [42:46] that it was the emails [42:48] that really have brought out [42:49] the worst here. [42:51] Jess Staley [42:51] who appeared [42:52] in front of Congress. [42:53] And who denied, [42:54] I mean, [42:55] one of the reasons [42:55] he lost his job [42:56] at Barclays Bank [42:57] was he knew Epstein [42:58] denied that he was a friend. [43:00] Yes, [43:00] and one exchange [43:02] that he had [43:03] with Epstein [43:04] in 2010 [43:06] after Epstein's conviction [43:08] And recently [43:10] after his conviction too. [43:11] Recently. [43:11] It was not, [43:11] this was not a secret. [43:12] People knew, [43:13] he knew, [43:13] he had corresponded [43:14] with Epstein [43:15] while Epstein [43:16] was doing his sentence. [43:17] But in 2010, [43:21] Staley emailed Epstein, [43:22] that was fun, [43:23] say hi to Snow White. [43:25] So sinister, [43:26] so weird. [43:28] And Epstein said, [43:29] what character, [43:30] which character [43:31] would you like next? [43:32] Which Staley replied, [43:33] beauty and the beast. [43:35] And Epstein said, [43:36] well, [43:36] one side is available. [43:38] And these creepy, [43:39] horrible, [43:40] weird, [43:40] misogynistic emails. [43:41] I mean, [43:42] these emails [43:43] are sickening. [43:44] It's such an interesting [43:45] insight, [43:46] I think, [43:47] for people [43:47] into the lives [43:49] of certain powerful men [43:50] and how they treat women [43:52] and just the idea [43:55] that these are kind [43:55] of cartoons to them. [43:57] Yeah. [43:58] Well, [43:58] those are not, [43:59] of course, [43:59] the only powerful men [44:00] that we've seen [44:00] exposed this week. [44:01] We've also had [44:02] the Tate brothers, [44:03] horrible, [44:04] misogynistic influencers [44:06] and quote marks, [44:07] Andrew and Tristan Tate, [44:09] who were arrested [44:11] in Miami [44:12] on charges [44:13] which include rape, [44:14] sexual assault [44:15] and child sexual abuse [44:17] imagery, [44:18] absolutely horrific [44:19] selection of charges. [44:20] They say that they're [44:20] innocent [44:21] and the charges [44:23] have been brought [44:23] in the United Kingdom [44:25] so they are up [44:26] for extradition. [44:27] But what is really [44:27] fascinating about this [44:29] is that they [44:30] are closely connected [44:32] to the Trump world [44:33] and there are [44:34] real questions [44:35] being asked [44:36] by one Democratic [44:37] member of the House [44:38] this week [44:40] who has written [44:41] to the House [44:47] Oversight Committee [44:47] Chairman James Comer [44:48] to say [44:49] we need to get [44:50] Barron Trump [44:50] in to answer [44:52] for his [44:52] relationship [44:54] with the Tates. [44:56] Because the Tates [44:56] are always saying [44:57] oh well we've talked [44:58] to Barron Trump [44:58] we know they're [44:59] held up within [45:00] the manosphere [45:01] slash the brosphere [45:02] as this kind of [45:04] rich [45:07] sort of [45:08] well again [45:10] it's just this [45:11] revolting [45:11] misogyny [45:12] and money [45:13] and Andrew Tate [45:14] back in 2024 [45:15] and I've had to [45:16] just make sure [45:17] I get these quotes right [45:18] said [45:18] I'm very close [45:19] with the Trump family [45:20] I know them well [45:21] and he said [45:23] he had spoken [45:23] to Barron [45:24] and was also [45:26] looking forward [45:27] to telling [45:27] the president [45:28] or I guess [45:29] in 2024 [45:29] the former president [45:30] that he's [45:31] a bulletproof [45:32] badass [45:32] and this is [45:36] actually a real [45:36] vulnerability [45:37] for the Trumps [45:39] because [45:40] Yasmin Ansari [45:42] who's the [45:42] rising [45:43] Democratic [45:44] Congresswoman [45:44] who wrote this [45:45] letter to say [45:46] we need to talk [45:46] to Barron [45:47] and the other [45:47] Trumps [45:48] Don Jr [45:48] appeared on a [45:49] live stream [45:50] with Andrew Tate [45:50] J.D. Vance [45:52] follows these [45:52] Tates on social [45:53] media [45:53] they don't have [45:56] the power [45:57] to force [45:57] subpoenas [45:58] they don't have [45:58] the power yet [45:59] but Donald Trump [46:01] raging in his [46:02] Oval Office [46:02] knows that it [46:04] is very likely [46:04] that the House [46:05] is going to flip [46:06] for the Democrats [46:06] at the midterms [46:08] and then they [46:08] can enforce this [46:09] and we could [46:10] very very well [46:11] see Barron [46:11] Trump serve [46:12] for the subpoena [46:13] to say [46:13] what do you know [46:14] about the Tates [46:15] well and the Tates [46:16] also were originally [46:17] arrested in Romania [46:18] for sex trafficking [46:19] and underage [46:20] pornography [46:21] right [46:22] and were miraculously [46:25] because they're [46:26] American [46:27] they are both [46:28] American and British [46:29] American and British [46:30] so they [46:32] born here [46:33] but then brought up [46:34] in our native country [46:35] but am I right [46:37] in thinking that [46:38] Donald Trump [46:38] helped them [46:39] get out of Romania [46:41] we absolutely believe [46:41] so we have the word [46:42] of Andrew Tate [46:43] for this [46:43] because a text message [46:45] that was leaked [46:45] to the New York Times [46:47] earlier this year [46:48] said [46:49] that just before [46:52] Donald Trump [46:52] came back into office [46:53] Tate was texting [46:55] his friends [46:55] and saying [46:56] I had word from [46:57] the Trump admin [46:57] that they're on top [46:58] of things [46:59] I've been told [47:00] I'll be free soon [47:01] but Trump needs [47:02] to see me in Miami [47:03] so according to [47:05] Tate himself [47:06] yes [47:06] well the White [47:07] and the White House [47:08] this week have said [47:09] that they're not going [47:09] to stand in the way [47:10] of the extradition [47:11] and that they should [47:12] end up going back [47:13] to the UK [47:14] to face charge [47:15] they have washed [47:15] their hands [47:16] of these Tates [47:17] in a way that [47:18] one should [47:19] the Tates [47:20] should have seen [47:20] this coming [47:20] because that's what [47:21] they did to Epstein [47:22] back in 2019 [47:23] but this is [47:26] going to be [47:27] a new vulnerability [47:28] there is an echo [47:29] of the Epstein files [47:30] here [47:30] the closeness [47:31] of the Trump family [47:32] to toxic people [47:34] is something [47:35] that Democrats [47:36] are really really keen [47:37] to get their teeth into [47:38] and could be [47:39] a real vulnerability [47:41] a real narrative [47:42] of questions [47:44] and a real problem [47:45] also for Melania Trump [47:46] who we haven't discussed [47:47] because she has been [47:49] so protective of Barron [47:50] he has vanished [47:51] he vanishes [47:52] from the public eye [47:53] for months at a time [47:54] the most recent time [47:55] we saw him [47:56] obviously [47:56] last weekend [47:56] at the World Cup final [47:57] but [47:59] like Melania [48:00] he's a bit of a mystery [48:01] and this could blow him open [48:03] well we know that Melania [48:05] won't be accompanying [48:06] her husband [48:06] to the White House [48:07] Correspondents' Dinner [48:08] tonight [48:08] for those of you [48:10] who have joined us [48:11] and don't know [48:12] what happened [48:13] at the last White House [48:14] Correspondents' Dinner [48:15] Hugh [48:16] why don't you tell them [48:17] whose room [48:18] you were [48:18] adjacent to [48:20] in the Washington Hilton [48:21] well [48:21] we went to the last [48:23] White House Correspondents' Dinner [48:24] not to celebrate [48:26] Donald Trump [48:27] who was going to be there [48:28] but because we [48:29] had thought [48:31] about this a lot [48:32] and took the view [48:33] that we have to report [48:34] on this [48:34] as journalists [48:35] and also [48:36] we have to say [48:37] to Donald Trump [48:38] this is our territory [48:40] you're coming [48:41] onto our territory [48:42] and [48:43] you know [48:44] I was concerned [48:45] that a lot of the [48:46] elite DC media [48:47] that go to this thing [48:48] were going to get [48:49] their champagne [48:50] clap [48:50] yell [48:51] cheer [48:52] and ask for selfies [48:53] because [48:53] quite frankly [48:54] that's what goes on [48:55] in DC [48:55] and [48:57] I thought it was important [48:58] that the Daily Beast [48:59] goes and reports [49:00] as journalists [49:01] what I didn't expect [49:03] was that I would end up [49:04] being turned out [49:06] next door [49:06] to the gunman [49:08] who [49:09] tried [49:10] to get in [49:11] there was an astonishing [49:12] breach of hotel security [49:13] he walked into this hotel [49:14] armed [49:16] nobody searched him [49:17] nobody searched [49:18] any of us [49:19] and [49:19] he got [49:20] to within [49:21] 20 feet [49:22] of being in the [49:23] ballroom [49:24] the vast ballroom [49:25] for this event [49:25] takes place [49:26] and there were [49:27] two and a half [49:28] thousand people [49:29] in the ballroom [49:29] two and a half [49:29] thousand people [49:30] it's a much [49:30] smaller event [49:31] tonight [49:32] 700 people [49:33] and again [49:34] I'm concerned [49:34] this DC elite [49:35] likes this show [49:36] we will [49:37] one of our reporters [49:38] Farah Thomasin [49:39] will be there [49:40] reporting on this event [49:41] not clapping [49:42] not cheering [49:43] not yelling [49:43] not seeking selfies [49:44] not giving approbation [49:46] to Trump [49:47] who has been [49:49] attacking the first amendment [49:50] attacking journalism [49:51] demanding [49:52] action [49:53] against New York [49:54] Times journalists [49:55] for revealing [49:56] that his [49:57] Griff Force 1 [49:58] was insecure [49:59] I have [50:00] brave personal [50:01] reservations [50:01] about the idea [50:02] this event [50:03] even took place [50:04] we have to [50:04] journalistically [50:05] be there [50:05] to report on it [50:06] because that [50:07] is the most [50:08] important thing [50:08] that we can do [50:09] and we should [50:10] point out [50:10] that Trump [50:11] wanted to serve [50:12] subpoenas [50:13] to the New York [50:14] Times journalist [50:14] who broke [50:15] the story [50:16] about the lack [50:17] of security [50:17] around the new [50:18] Qatar Griff Force 1 [50:19] and he did [50:20] in fact [50:21] serve subpoenas [50:21] but then it all [50:22] fell apart [50:23] because a judge [50:24] told them [50:24] that's not how [50:26] you serve a subpoena [50:26] the DOJ [50:27] was forced [50:28] to withdraw [50:29] the subpoenas [50:29] they voluntarily [50:30] withdrew the subpoenas [50:31] before they were [50:32] ordered by the judge [50:33] but this attack [50:35] on the first amendment [50:36] is not over [50:37] they may well come back [50:38] with fresh subpoenas [50:39] and try to force [50:40] these journalists [50:41] to reveal [50:41] who their sources [50:42] were [50:42] which is [50:44] an incredibly [50:45] bad idea [50:46] for the free press [50:47] but also [50:48] shows you [50:49] that this story [50:50] was true [50:50] and the story [50:51] was denied [50:52] by the White House [50:53] denied by Caroline [50:54] Leavitt [50:54] with her roller [50:55] in her hair [50:55] and you can't [50:57] prosecute a journalist [50:58] if the story [50:59] was [50:59] if you're going [51:00] after the journalist [51:01] obviously the story [51:02] was true [51:02] so you know [51:03] quite a remarkable [51:04] turn of events [51:04] well I hope [51:05] that Farah Thomason [51:06] does get at least [51:07] one glass of champagne [51:08] tonight at the White House [51:09] Correspondents [51:10] dinner [51:10] well not to toast [51:12] not to toast [51:13] to toast the first amendment [51:14] absolutely [51:15] to toast the first amendment [51:16] really the dinner [51:17] is to celebrate [51:18] the incredible importance [51:21] of the first amendment [51:22] which we see [51:22] undermined every single day [51:24] by this government [51:25] and this cabinet [51:26] not least the removing [51:27] of four of the service [51:29] people's names [51:30] who died in this bombing [51:32] of Iran [51:33] Hughie [51:35] thank you so much [51:36] for keeping us up to date [51:37] I know you have [51:38] an editorial meeting [51:39] to get to [51:40] I do [51:40] it's always a thrill [51:42] to wind up the week [51:43] with you [51:43] there's one thing [51:44] I want to stay on top of [51:45] Joanna [51:45] which is a discussion [51:47] we had last week [51:48] about high tea [51:49] high tea [51:50] has started a debate [51:52] it's a very British debate [51:53] I'm Scottish [51:54] obviously [51:55] Joanna [51:56] I didn't know you were Scottish [51:57] I keep it concealed [51:58] no idea you were Scottish [52:00] I know [52:00] does he tell us [52:01] every single time [52:03] I'm very discreet [52:05] about it [52:05] but [52:07] we discussed high tea [52:08] and [52:09] you offered [52:10] one definition [52:11] of what high tea [52:12] well [52:12] we talked about high tea [52:13] because of Pete Hegsitt [52:14] right [52:14] I offered the proper definition [52:15] of what high tea is [52:16] which should be sandwiches [52:18] little cheese sandwich [52:19] possibly salmon [52:20] bit of chicken [52:21] coronation chicken [52:22] Margaret Thatcher's [52:23] favourite dish [52:24] with scones cream [52:26] it doesn't matter [52:26] if you put the cream on [52:27] or the butter on [52:28] or the jam on first [52:29] always a debate in England [52:30] this is what English people [52:32] argue about [52:32] well [52:33] I hate to tell you [52:34] Scottish people [52:35] and some people [52:36] from other parts [52:37] of the north of England [52:37] not Yorkshire [52:39] obviously [52:39] have a different [52:41] definition of high tea [52:42] and I asked my parents [52:44] to find high tea [52:46] in Scotland [52:47] it's a bit old fashioned [52:48] but we would [52:49] it's five [52:50] between four and five p.m [52:52] and it's not [52:53] scones [52:54] and cakes first [52:55] fish and chips [52:56] maybe a steak pie [52:58] maybe [52:59] steak pie [53:00] is not high tea [53:01] but it has to be [53:02] accompanied by a very [53:03] very big steaming pot [53:05] of tea [53:05] and afterwards [53:06] you can have a cake [53:07] fish and chips [53:08] at four o'clock [53:09] who would do that [53:10] who [53:11] who would do that [53:12] no it's sandwiches [53:13] it's cream [53:15] clotted cream [53:16] and scones [53:16] and it's fruit cake [53:18] and then possibly [53:18] a fondant [53:19] oh [53:20] nothing better [53:20] than a fondant [53:21] at Fortnum and Mason's [53:23] you can't get [53:23] any more English [53:24] than that [53:25] you really can't [53:26] anyway [53:26] thank you for all [53:27] your comments [53:27] about high tea [53:29] you can tell us [53:29] do you really want [53:30] steak pie [53:31] or battered [53:32] fish and chips [53:33] of course [53:33] yes you do [53:34] in the afternoon [53:34] I don't think so [53:35] I don't think so [53:37] Hugh [53:37] it's very good [53:38] to see you [53:39] if you have comments [53:40] on Hugh's accent [53:41] the fact he's Scottish [53:42] or on some of the [53:43] things we've talked [53:44] about like the [53:45] disappearing of [53:46] four American [53:47] yeah I think there's [53:47] a few more serious [53:48] things to talk about [53:49] right or Carolyn [53:50] Levitt's hair [53:51] how do you roll [53:52] your hair [53:52] is that what you do [53:53] I find the lint roller [53:55] is quite good [53:55] because the hair [53:56] sticks up there [53:57] of its own accord [53:58] well the lint roller [53:58] is accord [53:59] anyway write and [54:00] let us know [54:00] thank you [54:01] thank you [54:02] thank you [54:02] we just reached [54:03] 700,000 subscribers [54:06] 700,000 [54:07] I can't believe it [54:07] it's amazing [54:08] and we started [54:09] only just over [54:10] a year ago [54:11] so we are thrilled [54:12] thank you very much [54:13] for your support [54:14] I'm really excited [54:18] for you to hear [54:19] this next conversation [54:20] with Dick Costolo [54:21] he is the former [54:22] CEO of Twitter [54:24] and the co-founder [54:26] of O1 Advisors [54:28] and in it [54:29] well he really [54:30] caught me up short [54:31] actually by predicting [54:33] the end of thinking [54:35] now this conversation [54:36] is produced in partnership [54:38] with PMI US [54:40] US businesses [54:41] of Philip Morris [54:42] International [54:42] as part of a [54:43] year-long initiative [54:44] to celebrate [54:45] and accelerate [54:46] American innovation [54:47] and reinvention [54:48] we're looking ahead [54:49] to the next 250 years [54:51] of America [54:52] and reacting directly [54:54] to your comments [54:55] so Dick and I [54:56] are discussing [54:57] the future of social media [54:59] and the internet [55:00] let's dive right in [55:02] so Dick [55:06] is social media [55:08] basically over now [55:10] it's certainly fractured [55:11] so what I mean by that [55:12] is taking a walk [55:15] through Soho [55:16] here in New York [55:17] will tell you [55:19] that it's not dead [55:19] the number of [55:21] boyfriends of Instagram [55:23] taking photos [55:25] of their girlfriends [55:26] standing in the middle [55:27] of the street [55:28] with a bag [55:29] over their shoulder [55:29] looking longingly [55:31] down the cobblestones [55:32] is there's one [55:34] every other block [55:36] sometimes too [55:37] so certainly [55:39] TikTok and Instagram [55:40] are not over [55:41] I think the challenge [55:44] is Facebook [55:45] feels long [55:47] long past [55:48] Snapchat [55:49] is not [55:51] what it used to be [55:52] for high schoolers [55:53] and Twitter [55:54] is filled [55:56] with the very [55:57] thing that [55:57] Elon said [55:58] he wanted to get rid [55:59] of bots [55:59] and now AI slop [56:01] right [56:02] so I'm going to [56:03] protest about [56:03] Snapchat [56:04] because I'm on the [56:05] board [56:05] so I'm just [56:06] registering [56:06] this martini [56:07] that you poured me [56:07] in the Daily Beast [56:08] cup [56:08] is delicious [56:09] by the way [56:10] isn't it good [56:11] it's good to have [56:11] martini [56:12] yeah [56:12] sneaky [56:13] sneaky there [56:15] so if you're [56:17] sort of looking [56:18] out over the next [56:20] five to ten years [56:21] how do people [56:24] continue to [56:25] communicate [56:26] on social media [56:27] and where have [56:27] the conversations [56:28] gone [56:29] that I used [56:30] to love so much [56:31] in the early [56:33] Twitter days [56:34] when you were [56:35] CEO [56:35] thank you [56:36] they're not [56:37] those are gone [56:39] seemingly [56:40] not to return [56:42] at least on [56:43] one of the [56:44] existing platforms [56:45] those things [56:46] are gone [56:47] people [56:47] you know [56:49] all you need [56:51] to do [56:51] is look [56:52] at anyone [56:52] very [56:55] sort of [56:56] anyone [56:57] who proposes [56:58] anything [56:59] controversial [57:00] on Twitter [57:01] is met [57:02] with nothing [57:03] but you know [57:03] trolls [57:04] and the [57:05] trolls [57:07] are so [57:08] they're [57:11] what gets [57:12] attention [57:12] you know [57:13] friends who [57:14] call it [57:14] the sort [57:14] of [57:15] the [57:15] anger [57:17] economy [57:18] and the [57:19] troll [57:20] economy [57:20] there's a [57:22] whole economy [57:22] for those [57:22] people that [57:23] by just [57:24] being mean [57:24] and cruel [57:25] and everything [57:25] get attention [57:26] and get [57:27] engagement [57:27] and get [57:28] fans [57:29] one need [57:30] only look [57:31] no farther [57:31] than the [57:32] Tate brothers [57:33] who are [57:33] like [57:34] rich [57:35] from being [57:36] crazy [57:37] misogynist [57:38] so [57:39] the [57:41] challenge [57:42] with AI [57:43] now entering [57:44] the fray [57:44] is that [57:45] the discourse [57:46] is gone [57:47] with the [57:47] emergence [57:47] of AI [57:48] the amount [57:50] of content [57:51] that's being [57:51] posted [57:52] that's just [57:53] AI slop [57:54] to spot [57:55] by the way [57:55] forget about [57:57] just social [57:57] media [57:58] but from [57:59] Facebook [58:00] to LinkedIn [58:01] to Twitter [58:02] to Spotify [58:04] Music [58:05] to Amazon [58:06] Books [58:06] I have [58:08] four or five [58:09] people now [58:09] who've sent me [58:10] oh I wrote a book [58:11] can you review [58:12] this book [58:12] well they're using [58:15] everyone's going [58:15] to write a book [58:16] and everyone's [58:16] going to be a [58:17] musician [58:17] and everyone's [58:18] going to be [58:18] an artist [58:18] and the problem [58:20] is when [58:20] everyone does it [58:21] nothing is [58:22] interesting [58:23] as you remember [58:24] hold on [58:26] let me just [58:26] linger on that [58:27] I love that [58:27] when everybody [58:28] does it [58:28] nothing is [58:30] interesting [58:30] it's increasingly [58:31] hard to find [58:31] anything of any [58:32] value [58:33] because you [58:34] can use AI [58:34] to create [58:36] this stuff [58:36] and then post [58:37] it [58:37] you can be [58:38] a musician [58:39] you can be [58:40] an author [58:41] you can be [58:41] a [58:41] it's impossible [58:43] it will [58:44] become [58:45] almost impossible [58:47] to find [58:47] anything [58:48] of interest [58:49] that's new [58:50] and unique [58:50] on these [58:51] platforms [58:52] I mean [58:52] and don't [58:53] forget [58:53] AI brings [58:54] as much [58:55] as social [58:56] media [58:56] pushed all [58:57] of us [58:57] to our [58:58] corners [58:58] right [58:59] the right [58:59] and left [58:59] and everybody [59:01] hears their [59:01] echo chamber [59:02] on these [59:02] platforms [59:03] whether they're [59:05] far right [59:05] or far left [59:06] artificial [59:07] intelligence [59:08] being the [59:10] having studied [59:11] the entire [59:12] internet [59:12] and giving [59:13] you back [59:13] the average [59:14] of what [59:14] everyone [59:15] thinks [59:16] you know [59:17] again [59:17] I say [59:18] this all [59:18] the time [59:19] but [59:19] go to [59:20] open AI [59:20] and say [59:21] pick a [59:21] random [59:22] number [59:22] 1 through [59:23] 10 [59:23] give me [59:23] a random [59:24] number [59:24] 1 through [59:24] 10 [59:25] it will [59:25] always [59:26] say [59:26] 7 [59:26] always [59:27] really [59:28] the reason [59:28] it will [59:28] always [59:29] say 7 [59:29] is because [59:30] that's [59:30] the average [59:31] AI brings [59:32] everything [59:32] back [59:33] to the [59:33] middle [59:33] meaning [59:34] it homogenizes [59:35] everything [59:36] right [59:36] by homogenizing [59:37] everything [59:37] all these [59:38] books [59:39] and music [59:39] that are [59:40] published [59:41] to [59:41] Spotify [59:42] and Amazon [59:43] and so forth [59:43] are gonna [59:44] all be [59:44] the same [59:45] so none [59:46] of it [59:46] will be [59:47] interesting [59:47] and we're [59:48] at the [59:48] very early [59:49] innings [59:49] of people [59:50] doing this [59:50] stuff [59:51] you know [59:51] look at [59:53] the millions [59:54] and millions [59:55] and millions [59:55] of songs [59:56] that have [59:56] been added [59:56] to Spotify [59:57] that are [59:58] AI slop [59:59] and you know [1:00:01] you and I [1:00:02] haven't done it [1:00:03] yet but [1:00:03] probably we'll [1:00:04] go [1:00:04] wait till [1:00:06] it's even [1:00:06] easier [1:00:07] you know [1:00:08] I got a [1:00:08] fun tune [1:00:09] in my [1:00:09] head [1:00:09] I promise [1:00:12] you I'm [1:00:13] never gonna [1:00:13] send you [1:00:13] that [1:00:14] so [1:00:14] there was [1:00:16] a CEO [1:00:16] of Twitter [1:00:17] between [1:00:17] you [1:00:18] and when [1:00:19] Elon [1:00:19] there were [1:00:19] like nine [1:00:20] there were [1:00:20] nine CEOs [1:00:21] there were [1:00:22] nine CEOs [1:00:23] they're like [1:00:23] Spinal Tap [1:00:24] drummers [1:00:24] the CEOs [1:00:25] of Twitter [1:00:26] okay so [1:00:27] one was killed [1:00:28] in a bizarre [1:00:29] gardening incident [1:00:30] you know [1:00:31] it's no [1:00:31] it's straight [1:00:31] out of Spinal Tap [1:00:32] you're making that up [1:00:33] no [1:00:34] that was a line [1:00:34] from Spinal Tap [1:00:35] that was [1:00:35] okay [1:00:36] what did Elon [1:00:37] Musk get right [1:00:38] and what did he get [1:00:39] wrong about [1:00:40] X [1:00:40] yeah [1:00:41] well he certainly [1:00:42] got right [1:00:43] that you didn't [1:00:44] need as many people [1:00:45] as were in the [1:00:46] company at the time [1:00:46] I mean I think [1:00:47] there were 7,000 [1:00:48] employees when [1:00:49] he took over [1:00:50] from Parag [1:00:51] Jack left [1:00:51] made Parag [1:00:52] CEO [1:00:53] for a hot [1:00:54] minute [1:00:54] and then [1:00:55] and then [1:00:56] Elon [1:00:56] took over [1:00:57] there were [1:00:59] something like [1:00:59] 7,700 people [1:01:01] there [1:01:01] and now [1:01:02] you know [1:01:03] there are [1:01:04] what [1:01:05] a couple hundred [1:01:06] 300 [1:01:06] 400 [1:01:07] maybe [1:01:07] 200 [1:01:07] 300 [1:01:08] which is a wild [1:01:10] I mean [1:01:10] it's a radical [1:01:11] departure [1:01:12] so yeah [1:01:13] and I think [1:01:14] but all these [1:01:15] companies [1:01:15] Google [1:01:16] Meta [1:01:17] I mean [1:01:17] everyone had [1:01:18] overhired [1:01:19] and it was just [1:01:20] you know [1:01:20] doesn't matter [1:01:21] because we're [1:01:21] profitable [1:01:22] and we don't [1:01:23] need to pay [1:01:23] attention to that [1:01:24] I mean [1:01:24] for whatever reason [1:01:25] all these companies [1:01:26] wildly overhired [1:01:28] and so he got [1:01:30] that right [1:01:31] I think the thing [1:01:32] he got wrong [1:01:32] is [1:01:33] I mean [1:01:34] there are probably [1:01:34] a bunch of things [1:01:35] the thing I think [1:01:36] I would say [1:01:36] he got wrong [1:01:37] is [1:01:37] probably any more [1:01:38] than a couple hundred [1:01:39] because literally [1:01:40] I mean [1:01:41] if you'll remember [1:01:42] when he took over [1:01:43] the platform [1:01:43] he kind of was [1:01:45] raging about bots [1:01:46] there are too many bots [1:01:47] and [1:01:49] I mean [1:01:50] all of the [1:01:51] whenever I post [1:01:52] something now [1:01:53] a week later [1:01:55] I'll go and look [1:01:56] at my [1:01:56] you know [1:01:57] act engagement [1:01:59] and see that [1:02:00] oh a few of your [1:02:01] tweets were [1:02:02] retweeted [1:02:03] like 19 times [1:02:04] it's all [1:02:05] it's always [1:02:06] 19 times [1:02:07] by the way [1:02:08] 19 is the magic number [1:02:09] it's all like [1:02:10] sex cams [1:02:11] adult [1:02:12] you know [1:02:13] it's all bots [1:02:14] and it's all [1:02:15] for whatever reason [1:02:16] mine [1:02:16] happen to be all [1:02:17] porn bots [1:02:18] so [1:02:19] that's [1:02:21] unfortunately [1:02:23] you know [1:02:24] the complaint [1:02:25] the thing that he was [1:02:26] actually complaining about [1:02:27] has gotten significantly worse [1:02:28] right [1:02:28] I will say this [1:02:29] the person that he brought [1:02:31] in to run product [1:02:32] there now [1:02:33] Nikita Byer [1:02:34] is exceptionally good [1:02:36] at thinking about [1:02:37] how to grow the platform [1:02:39] and the kinds of things [1:02:40] that users really want [1:02:41] and what needs to be added [1:02:42] he's done a great job [1:02:43] and he's only [1:02:44] he's only one [1:02:45] I think he's the only [1:02:46] product manager there [1:02:47] and you know [1:02:47] good for him [1:02:48] because it's a hard job [1:02:49] right [1:02:49] so if you're looking out [1:02:51] sort of 20 to 30 years [1:02:54] how do you think [1:02:56] we're going to be [1:02:56] communicating with each other [1:02:58] I think that [1:03:01] we underestimate [1:03:03] how much cognitive [1:03:05] offloading we do [1:03:07] by our use of AI [1:03:09] right now [1:03:10] and that's going to [1:03:11] get a lot worse [1:03:12] and people are going [1:03:14] to stop trying [1:03:15] so there's a great [1:03:16] paper out [1:03:17] and I can't send it [1:03:19] around to all your listeners [1:03:20] the TLDR of this paper [1:03:22] is [1:03:23] even people who [1:03:25] only use AI [1:03:26] for as little as [1:03:27] 10 minutes [1:03:28] stop trying [1:03:29] to think for themselves [1:03:31] to solve a problem [1:03:32] and just like [1:03:33] well [1:03:33] I'll just ask [1:03:35] for the answer [1:03:35] you know [1:03:36] if you're in a university [1:03:38] that's so interesting [1:03:39] because it's so much better [1:03:40] if you're in a university [1:03:42] and you're in a [1:03:43] you get one-on-one time [1:03:44] with your professor [1:03:45] and you say [1:03:47] I mean let's use coding [1:03:48] as an example [1:03:49] hey how would I code [1:03:50] a binary tree [1:03:52] to sort [1:03:54] xyz [1:03:54] more quickly [1:03:55] the professor would say [1:03:57] well you know [1:03:57] how would you start [1:03:58] and you have some [1:03:59] back and forth [1:03:59] and you learn [1:04:00] along the way [1:04:00] well when you ask [1:04:02] codex or cloud code [1:04:03] like hey I need [1:04:04] I need to search [1:04:05] for whatever [1:04:06] as quickly as possible [1:04:07] in something [1:04:08] less than three seconds [1:04:09] can you build it for me [1:04:10] it just goes here [1:04:10] and so once you start [1:04:13] to use AI [1:04:13] and quickly learn [1:04:15] oh it just will do it [1:04:16] for me [1:04:17] human beings [1:04:18] have evolved [1:04:19] to offload [1:04:19] as much cognitive stuff [1:04:21] as they can [1:04:21] so they can you know [1:04:23] run away from [1:04:23] the saber-toothed tiger [1:04:24] I can't [1:04:25] I don't have time [1:04:25] to think right now [1:04:26] I gotta chase [1:04:27] get away from that thing [1:04:28] and find some [1:04:29] Barry's deed [1:04:29] right [1:04:30] so we [1:04:31] we'll do all the [1:04:32] cognitive offloading [1:04:33] anything will let us do [1:04:34] and AI is [1:04:36] hey you don't need [1:04:36] to try anymore [1:04:37] I'll like answer it [1:04:38] for you [1:04:39] and it's already [1:04:41] happening significantly [1:04:43] and I think that's going [1:04:43] to get a thousand times [1:04:45] worse [1:04:45] so I'm like [1:04:47] one of the things [1:04:47] I worry about [1:04:48] is as AI [1:04:50] becomes even better [1:04:53] how do we make sure [1:04:54] people are still learning [1:04:55] it sounds like a simple [1:04:57] thing to ask [1:04:58] but it's going to be [1:04:59] it's going to be [1:05:01] for parents who don't [1:05:03] pay attention to their kids [1:05:04] and the way they learn [1:05:05] and how they learn [1:05:06] they're not going to learn [1:05:08] they're just going to [1:05:09] they're not [1:05:10] they're going to go [1:05:10] just this thing [1:05:12] will tell me the answer [1:05:13] I don't have to try [1:05:14] and is it [1:05:16] so are you predicting [1:05:17] the end of thinking [1:05:19] I'm predicting [1:05:20] the end of thinking [1:05:21] for a lot [1:05:21] for a large segment [1:05:23] of humanity [1:05:24] yeah [1:05:24] yeah no it's alarming [1:05:26] I mean it's so [1:05:28] I mean if you said that [1:05:29] 10 years ago [1:05:30] you'd be like [1:05:30] well people are going [1:05:31] to still think [1:05:32] of course they'll still think [1:05:34] but it's already happening [1:05:36] you see people [1:05:37] they [1:05:38] I'm telling you [1:05:39] this paper [1:05:39] you know thousands of people [1:05:41] with as little as 10 minutes [1:05:43] using AI [1:05:44] they just stop [1:05:45] they just stop trying [1:05:46] they're like well [1:05:47] I don't need to ask [1:05:48] how to do this [1:05:49] I'll just say [1:05:50] what's the answer [1:05:51] do you think [1:05:52] right [1:05:52] yeah [1:05:53] and also I know [1:05:54] from my own behavior [1:05:55] the kind of memos [1:05:57] or whatever [1:05:58] that I whip up [1:05:59] or that AI whips up [1:06:01] for me [1:06:01] why would I ever want [1:06:02] to go back [1:06:03] to writing those myself [1:06:04] but actually something [1:06:05] is lost in the offloading [1:06:08] as you say [1:06:08] probably [1:06:09] yeah well you learn [1:06:10] by making mistakes [1:06:11] and screwing things up [1:06:12] and then you find out [1:06:13] things along the way [1:06:14] right [1:06:15] that you wouldn't [1:06:16] that aren't [1:06:17] you learn things [1:06:18] that aren't the thing [1:06:19] you were trying to learn [1:06:20] in the process [1:06:21] of making mistakes [1:06:22] and screwing things up [1:06:23] and trying [1:06:24] and oh that's interesting [1:06:25] this funny thing happened [1:06:26] right [1:06:26] the serendipity [1:06:27] of the journey [1:06:29] yeah [1:06:29] so which are the companies [1:06:32] that survive then [1:06:33] you know [1:06:34] OpenAI [1:06:34] Anthropic [1:06:36] Grok AI [1:06:37] do you have a sense [1:06:38] of which ones [1:06:39] are here to stay [1:06:40] it's very [1:06:42] so there's a thing [1:06:43] that's [1:06:44] super relevant [1:06:46] to right now [1:06:47] which is that [1:06:48] once again [1:06:49] the Chinese models [1:06:51] and it's [1:06:53] it's different ones [1:06:54] on different days [1:06:55] have emerged again [1:06:58] as hey [1:06:59] these might be [1:06:59] getting better [1:07:00] a lot more quickly [1:07:01] than we thought [1:07:02] and they're not [1:07:02] nine to twelve months [1:07:03] behind [1:07:03] in fact [1:07:04] they might not be [1:07:05] that far behind [1:07:06] at all [1:07:06] and there's a group [1:07:08] of people [1:07:08] that will say [1:07:09] well [1:07:09] they're basically [1:07:11] going and [1:07:12] distilling Anthropic [1:07:13] and what I mean [1:07:14] but what distilling [1:07:14] means is [1:07:15] their AI [1:07:17] is just going [1:07:17] and asking Anthropic [1:07:19] millions and millions [1:07:20] of questions [1:07:20] and taking them [1:07:23] for itself [1:07:23] and you know [1:07:24] what I mean [1:07:24] basically stealing [1:07:25] Anthropic [1:07:26] if you will [1:07:27] right [1:07:27] so distilling [1:07:28] is essentially [1:07:28] you're going [1:07:29] and copying Anthropic [1:07:30] by just having [1:07:31] billions of bots [1:07:32] go ask your questions [1:07:33] and steal it [1:07:34] and try to [1:07:35] you're trying to do it [1:07:36] a sneaky way [1:07:36] and blah blah blah [1:07:37] and Anthropic [1:07:39] or OpenAI [1:07:40] can't stop that [1:07:40] well [1:07:41] it's like [1:07:42] it's like spam [1:07:43] you know [1:07:44] like now I'm doing [1:07:44] you block [1:07:45] or bots on Twitter [1:07:46] I block it over here [1:07:47] and now it comes in [1:07:48] now they're [1:07:49] so [1:07:49] there's lots [1:07:50] and lots of ways [1:07:51] to do this [1:07:51] however [1:07:52] there's another group [1:07:53] of people [1:07:54] that are like [1:07:54] it's too good [1:07:55] to have distilled [1:07:56] Anthropic [1:07:56] it's [1:07:57] it's [1:07:57] it's [1:07:58] come [1:07:58] it's [1:07:59] you know [1:07:59] it's [1:07:59] it's better [1:08:00] than Anthropic [1:08:00] in these kinds [1:08:02] of things [1:08:03] it's a little bit [1:08:03] worse [1:08:03] in these kinds [1:08:04] of things [1:08:04] the point [1:08:05] being [1:08:05] these open [1:08:07] these open [1:08:08] weight [1:08:08] Chinese models [1:08:10] are very [1:08:11] quickly becoming [1:08:12] I'll boil [1:08:14] it all down [1:08:15] the point [1:08:15] is [1:08:15] these open [1:08:16] weight models [1:08:17] and in fact [1:08:17] all the models [1:08:18] are very quickly [1:08:19] becoming commodities [1:08:20] and all the same [1:08:21] and you can sort of [1:08:22] look to a year from now [1:08:24] or two years from now [1:08:25] or three years from now [1:08:26] and say [1:08:27] these things are all going to be [1:08:28] they're all going to be [1:08:29] just as good [1:08:30] and if that's true [1:08:32] and [1:08:34] the open source [1:08:35] you know [1:08:36] pick whatever [1:08:37] you know [1:08:37] version nine [1:08:38] of this particular [1:08:39] Chinese model [1:08:40] that's great at coding [1:08:41] is two cents [1:08:43] for you know [1:08:44] 10 million tokens [1:08:46] and Anthropic [1:08:48] and OpenAI [1:08:49] are you know [1:08:50] trying to make money [1:08:51] and are spending [1:08:51] all this money [1:08:52] on compute [1:08:52] in the US [1:08:53] and data centers [1:08:55] and blah blah blah [1:08:55] and they're $10 [1:08:57] for the same amount [1:08:58] of tokens [1:08:58] enterprises are going [1:09:00] to go [1:09:01] well I want to pay [1:09:01] two cents [1:09:02] because I'll be [1:09:02] much more profitable [1:09:03] if I pay two cents [1:09:04] so there's a [1:09:07] there's a sort of [1:09:08] reckoning [1:09:08] that's on the [1:09:09] very near term [1:09:10] horizon here [1:09:10] for whether [1:09:11] OpenAI [1:09:12] and Anthropic [1:09:13] and Grok [1:09:14] and Gemini [1:09:16] from Google [1:09:17] and you know [1:09:18] Llama from Facebook [1:09:18] are going to be [1:09:21] you know [1:09:22] profitable businesses [1:09:23] or something else [1:09:26] happens [1:09:27] and that something [1:09:28] else is [1:09:28] arguable [1:09:30] right [1:09:31] what is it [1:09:32] do they go [1:09:32] into some sort [1:09:33] of new business [1:09:34] model where [1:09:35] they're like [1:09:35] oh we can't [1:09:36] charge for [1:09:37] token use anymore [1:09:38] like we [1:09:38] you know [1:09:39] we can't charge [1:09:39] $200 a month [1:09:41] for XYZ [1:09:42] we have to be [1:09:43] in the [1:09:43] I don't know [1:09:43] workflow automation [1:09:44] business [1:09:45] or something [1:09:45] or do they go [1:09:47] to the US [1:09:47] government [1:09:48] and go [1:09:48] hey [1:09:49] you need to [1:09:50] take a stake [1:09:50] in us [1:09:51] and then [1:09:51] you know [1:09:52] yes we can't [1:09:54] charge as much [1:09:54] as we were charging [1:09:55] to enterprises [1:09:56] because people [1:09:56] will just use [1:09:57] open source models [1:09:57] but [1:09:58] you should only [1:10:00] use us [1:10:01] at very expensive [1:10:02] rates for [1:10:03] the Department of Defense [1:10:04] because otherwise [1:10:05] the Chinese models [1:10:06] will you know [1:10:07] be hacked [1:10:08] will hack into [1:10:09] our Department of Defense [1:10:10] systems [1:10:10] and blah blah blah [1:10:11] all by way of saying [1:10:13] if these things [1:10:14] are all commodities [1:10:15] and OpenAI [1:10:16] and Anthropic [1:10:16] are spending [1:10:17] as much money [1:10:18] and Facebook [1:10:20] sorry [1:10:20] and Meta [1:10:21] and Google [1:10:22] and Grok [1:10:23] are spending [1:10:23] as much money [1:10:24] as they're spending [1:10:24] they're not going [1:10:27] to be able [1:10:27] to be profitable [1:10:28] doing what they're doing [1:10:29] they'll have to do [1:10:29] something else [1:10:30] and whether that's [1:10:31] the government [1:10:32] regulating stuff [1:10:33] and only using [1:10:33] US models [1:10:34] for government contracts [1:10:36] or something else [1:10:37] happens [1:10:38] or they go [1:10:38] into a different [1:10:39] business [1:10:39] who knows [1:10:40] but it seems [1:10:41] to be true [1:10:42] that these things [1:10:43] all are headed [1:10:44] to being commodities [1:10:45] and are they [1:10:46] all going to be [1:10:47] assuming some [1:10:51] American companies [1:10:52] do survive [1:10:53] do you have a sense [1:10:56] of which one [1:10:57] at the moment [1:10:58] is in the lead [1:10:59] if you were to put [1:11:01] money on it [1:11:01] if you were to go [1:11:02] to Calci [1:11:03] yes but it changes [1:11:04] I mean Anthropic [1:11:05] is the answer [1:11:06] right [1:11:06] okay [1:11:07] they were smart [1:11:08] about the way [1:11:08] they were [1:11:09] they were smart [1:11:10] about the business [1:11:11] to go into [1:11:12] they've got [1:11:15] a great team [1:11:16] the product works [1:11:17] Mike Krieger [1:11:19] there was [1:11:19] the chief product officer [1:11:21] now I think [1:11:21] is the chief science officer [1:11:22] was co-founder [1:11:24] of Instagram [1:11:24] is a you know [1:11:25] fantastic [1:11:26] I mean [1:11:26] all these teams [1:11:27] have great people [1:11:28] but he's just [1:11:30] he's just very very good [1:11:31] but having said that [1:11:33] it changes [1:11:34] you know a year ago [1:11:35] it looked like [1:11:35] it was open AI [1:11:36] now Grok's got [1:11:37] a great coding model [1:11:38] and just has the [1:11:39] you know [1:11:40] that's the ability [1:11:41] to go bring in [1:11:41] the cursor folks [1:11:42] there [1:11:42] and have [1:11:44] who are [1:11:44] obviously great at this [1:11:46] and build out [1:11:46] the Grok coding model [1:11:47] so we'll see [1:11:48] they certainly [1:11:50] keep leapfrogging [1:11:51] each other [1:11:51] it looks like [1:11:52] Anthropic's [1:11:53] in the lead right now [1:11:53] the digital world [1:11:55] was supposed to bring [1:11:55] everybody closer together [1:11:57] we appear to be [1:11:58] living through [1:11:59] what we're told [1:12:00] is an epidemic [1:12:01] of loneliness [1:12:02] yeah [1:12:02] it's definitely [1:12:03] pushed people [1:12:04] further apart [1:12:05] right [1:12:05] yeah [1:12:06] I mean [1:12:08] all you need to do [1:12:09] is go to a restaurant [1:12:11] and look at couples [1:12:12] who are both [1:12:13] on their phones [1:12:13] right [1:12:14] like while they're [1:12:15] sitting there [1:12:16] right across [1:12:16] from each other [1:12:17] on a date [1:12:18] or whatever [1:12:18] I think it's [1:12:21] so is there a solution [1:12:23] can tech [1:12:24] provide a solution [1:12:26] for that [1:12:26] AI's making that worse [1:12:27] too as we're already [1:12:28] seeing you know [1:12:29] people are like [1:12:29] well I'm just gonna [1:12:29] have an AI girlfriend [1:12:30] because it's not gonna [1:12:32] you know [1:12:32] she's not gonna tell me [1:12:33] she doesn't wanna go out [1:12:34] with me [1:12:34] right [1:12:34] I'm never gonna get [1:12:35] rejected [1:12:36] and I'll just develop [1:12:37] this relationship [1:12:38] with this AI [1:12:40] you know [1:12:40] you would have thought [1:12:41] that was [1:12:41] that was still years away [1:12:43] it's happening [1:12:44] all over the place [1:12:45] already [1:12:45] you know [1:12:46] people have these [1:12:46] relationships [1:12:47] with some AI bot [1:12:49] which seems crazy [1:12:50] to probably you and me [1:12:51] but it's [1:12:52] it's happening everywhere [1:12:53] and we'll just get [1:12:54] obviously there'll be [1:12:55] more and more of that [1:12:56] so there will have to be [1:12:58] some sort of a societal [1:12:59] like hey man [1:13:00] enough is enough [1:13:01] like no one's talking [1:13:02] to any [1:13:03] we're not talking [1:13:04] to each other anymore [1:13:05] the new inventions [1:13:06] are making this worse [1:13:08] not better [1:13:08] like the glasses [1:13:09] are like [1:13:10] wait [1:13:10] now when I'm [1:13:11] now when I'm looking [1:13:12] out at the world [1:13:13] it's gonna have [1:13:14] a layer over it [1:13:15] that's like popping up [1:13:16] the next dance [1:13:17] like dance move [1:13:18] or like oh [1:13:18] that's Rebecca [1:13:19] you know [1:13:20] and then [1:13:20] then you've got people [1:13:21] like I don't want to [1:13:22] talk to anyone [1:13:22] wearing these glasses [1:13:23] because they like [1:13:24] are creepy [1:13:25] and meanwhile [1:13:26] the creepy people [1:13:27] are like look [1:13:27] I know [1:13:28] well no [1:13:28] I know [1:13:29] that's Joanna Coles [1:13:30] right there [1:13:30] it's crazy [1:13:31] but it's not gonna [1:13:32] that's not gonna [1:13:33] make it better [1:13:33] right [1:13:34] okay [1:13:35] so you're actually [1:13:36] not [1:13:36] you're not [1:13:37] two thumbs up [1:13:38] on human communication [1:13:39] going forward [1:13:40] or do you think [1:13:41] we'll figure it out [1:13:42] I'm two thumbs up [1:13:43] on communication [1:13:44] going forward [1:13:44] I mean [1:13:45] look [1:13:47] if you can think [1:13:48] and you know [1:13:49] that like hey [1:13:50] AI [1:13:51] AI is here [1:13:52] to make it all [1:13:53] easier for me [1:13:54] and so I don't [1:13:54] have to try [1:13:55] and then you know [1:13:56] that [1:13:57] you go [1:13:57] okay [1:13:57] I'm not gonna use it [1:13:58] for stuff like that [1:13:59] because I don't want [1:14:00] to stop thinking [1:14:01] so I don't use it [1:14:03] for things like [1:14:04] give me the answer [1:14:05] I use it for things like [1:14:07] hey I'm trying [1:14:08] to figure this out [1:14:09] like you know [1:14:10] how like [1:14:11] give me the first step [1:14:13] and how to do that [1:14:14] to think about [1:14:15] how you would go [1:14:16] do something like this [1:14:17] even for things [1:14:18] like cooking [1:14:19] I'll just say like [1:14:20] hey how would you [1:14:21] if I was trying [1:14:21] to do this [1:14:22] and this and this [1:14:22] in this particular meal [1:14:24] I'm trying to make [1:14:25] how would you think [1:14:26] about getting started [1:14:26] with this [1:14:27] and why [1:14:28] and then I'll [1:14:29] oh that's interesting [1:14:30] and I'll think about it [1:14:31] okay so you use it [1:14:31] as a kind of [1:14:32] companion [1:14:32] not an answer [1:14:33] we are on [1:14:34] a text exchange [1:14:36] which I find [1:14:37] hilarious [1:14:37] it's a group [1:14:38] of four of us [1:14:38] it's incredibly [1:14:39] well informed [1:14:40] I'm the least [1:14:41] informed person [1:14:42] but [1:14:42] and I'm wondering [1:14:44] if that's also [1:14:44] the way that social [1:14:45] media goes [1:14:46] that people just [1:14:47] inevitably [1:14:48] form their own [1:14:50] little groups [1:14:51] yeah I'm seeing [1:14:52] more and more of that [1:14:53] right [1:14:53] I think that's [1:14:54] that's a hopeful [1:14:55] outcome [1:14:56] and I have [1:14:57] several of those [1:14:58] kinds of communities [1:14:59] there's little groups [1:15:00] that are great [1:15:01] little whatsapp chats [1:15:03] they can be international [1:15:04] and then you can get [1:15:05] different perspectives [1:15:06] from people [1:15:07] which I find [1:15:07] really valuable [1:15:08] with the ones [1:15:09] I have in Europe [1:15:09] yeah [1:15:09] someone will probably [1:15:11] someone will come up [1:15:13] with some sort of [1:15:14] platform to make [1:15:15] that easier [1:15:16] not that whatsapp's hard [1:15:18] because it seems [1:15:20] like the right way [1:15:21] forward for [1:15:22] having thriving [1:15:23] conversation again [1:15:24] okay we have a question [1:15:25] here from a viewer [1:15:26] who says [1:15:27] is the internet [1:15:28] dead [1:15:28] it definitely [1:15:29] seems like [1:15:30] it's headed [1:15:30] in that direction [1:15:31] the short answer [1:15:32] is I think [1:15:32] the internet [1:15:33] is dying [1:15:33] because people [1:15:34] are just going [1:15:34] to these AI [1:15:36] platforms now [1:15:36] and asking [1:15:37] the question [1:15:37] and they don't [1:15:37] have to go search [1:15:38] so if the internet [1:15:39] is dying [1:15:40] what do [1:15:41] open AI [1:15:42] and Anthropic [1:15:42] and Grok [1:15:43] and everything [1:15:44] what's the new [1:15:47] stuff that they [1:15:48] search [1:15:48] they have to pay [1:15:49] or find their [1:15:52] own way [1:15:52] to use these [1:15:54] data companies [1:15:55] like Micro One [1:15:57] and Handshake [1:15:58] and Mercore [1:15:59] and others [1:16:00] to go help them [1:16:01] aggregate the data [1:16:02] they don't have [1:16:03] like for example [1:16:04] I need to learn [1:16:05] about oncology [1:16:06] and I don't know [1:16:08] anything [1:16:08] about this particular [1:16:10] pancreatic cancer [1:16:11] mutation [1:16:11] but here's a PhD [1:16:13] you know candidate [1:16:15] from the University [1:16:17] of Washington [1:16:18] who's written a thesis [1:16:20] on this [1:16:21] we'll go interview [1:16:22] him [1:16:23] and pull all that [1:16:24] data into our [1:16:25] platform [1:16:25] and now we know [1:16:26] everything that [1:16:26] that person knows [1:16:27] so there's a lot [1:16:28] of that going on [1:16:29] and they'll be going [1:16:30] and creating [1:16:31] new information [1:16:32] correct [1:16:32] right okay [1:16:33] that is actually [1:16:34] happening right now [1:16:35] so final question [1:16:36] will social media [1:16:38] sites ever be able [1:16:39] to actually clamp [1:16:40] down on bots [1:16:42] I mean I've [1:16:42] completely stopped [1:16:44] on X now [1:16:44] because it's all bots [1:16:46] the short answer [1:16:50] is it's possible [1:16:51] the longer answer [1:16:53] is it's expensive [1:16:55] and hard [1:16:55] so it's just a question [1:16:57] of the willingness [1:16:58] to do it [1:16:59] and I think that [1:17:01] Elon is learning [1:17:01] that it's a lot [1:17:02] you know [1:17:03] or finding out [1:17:04] I don't know [1:17:04] whether he's learning [1:17:05] he's finding out [1:17:06] that it's not as simple [1:17:07] as you think it is [1:17:09] Dick Costolo [1:17:10] it's always good [1:17:11] to see you [1:17:12] and it's always good [1:17:12] to get your opinions [1:17:13] thank you for coming [1:17:14] in to talk to us [1:17:15] happy to do it [1:17:16] big thanks [1:17:21] to Dick Costolo [1:17:22] for joining me [1:17:23] and next Friday [1:17:24] I'll be talking [1:17:25] about the future [1:17:25] of sports [1:17:26] and technology [1:17:27] with Vivek Ranadeve [1:17:29] the co-owner [1:17:30] and the chairman [1:17:31] of the Sacramento Kings [1:17:33] and great fun [1:17:34] to sit alongside [1:17:35] Portside [1:17:36] if you have the opportunity [1:17:37] if you want the chance [1:17:38] to have your prediction read [1:17:40] and responded to [1:17:41] live on air [1:17:42] leave us a comment [1:17:43] with the hashtag [1:17:44] America250 [1:17:45] on this YouTube video [1:17:46] or head to [1:17:48] beast.pub [1:17:49] slash America250 [1:17:50] reminder [1:17:52] reminder that 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