This Is My Dark Prediction for How Trump Will Die — The Daily Beast Podcast

[0:00] On his 89th birthday, in my imagination, this is a novel, Donald Trump is celebrating both [0:07] his birthday and the 20th anniversary of his first run for the presidency. He is at Trump [0:13] Tower going down the famous golden elevator, and he dies of a massive brainstem stroke [0:18] on the elevator as he's going down. The people who had gathered for a party decide that it's [0:25] a deep state assassination and begin rioting and go out on Fifth Avenue in New York and [0:31] bash pedestrians and car windows and store windows. And it's the first spectacular piece [0:38] of violence, spontaneous violence, that then results a year later in an uprising, in a true [0:44] right-wing uprising. [0:48] I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And today's guest has spent the last three [0:54] years imagining Donald Trump's death for his novel. So we get into that. What is it like [1:01] imagining the president's death for a living? And also we get into which of Trump's goons [1:09] has he been hate-watching the most recently? And who does he think is emerging as a plausible [1:15] contender for the Democratic presidency in 2028? [1:20] Okay. I'm talking, of course, about our regular guest, Kurt Anderson. Before we get into the [1:26] conversation, I just want to remind you, please subscribe to the Daily Beast podcast wherever [1:31] you get it. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, and don't forget to leave us a comment on YouTube after [1:37] you've watched us telling us your favorite part of the conversation and who else you would [1:42] like us to interview. Okay. That's enough throat clearing and preamble. Let's get into it [1:49] with the author, with the commentator, with the broadcaster, and with the novelist. And [1:54] the man who coined the phrase short-fingered Bulgarian when he was a co-founder of Spy magazine, [2:02] Kurt Anderson. Kurt Anderson, I am so glad to be clutching a copy of your book, The Breakup. You've [2:12] spent three years writing it. And in that time, you have imagined the death of Donald Trump. [2:20] A smile crept across your face when I said that. Can you tell us in the book, without [2:29] too much of a spoiler alert, how he dies? Because it's not perhaps as one would imagine. [2:36] Well, the book is set in 2045, and there's a backstory to 2035, when at age 89, in fact, [2:49] on his 89th birthday, in my imagination. This is a novel. Donald Trump is celebrating both his [2:56] birthday and the 20th anniversary of his first run for the presidency. He is at Trump Tower going down [3:04] to meet his throng of January 6th Pardonees and MAGA people and ICE agent Pardonees and this crowd of [3:15] his to celebrate and party, going down the famous golden elevator. And he dies of a massive brainstem [3:22] stroke on the elevator as he's going down. The people gathered, who had gathered for a party, [3:32] decide that it's a deep state assassination and begin rioting and go out on Fifth Avenue in New York [3:41] and bash pedestrians and car windows and store windows. And it's the first spectacular piece of [3:50] violence, spontaneous violence that then results a year later in an uprising, in a true right-wing [3:58] uprising, terrorist uprising, because the Democrats, meantime, in the last few years, in the early 30s, [4:03] have had a full comeback into federal power. [4:06] Okay. So the breakup refers to two breakups, right? There's a divorce in it, [4:11] but it really refers to the breakup of America. You, as a regular guest on the podcast, you spend a lot of [4:19] time thinking about what's happening culturally to America with this current president. And it's odd [4:27] that we're recording this on a Thursday, and it's actually 10 years, I think, to the day since Donald [4:33] Trump accepted the Republican nomination to be president. So it's particularly timely that you're [4:41] here. How much have you sucked out of the chaos that's going on now to inform this book? [4:50] Well, that's a good question. My last two books were these big nonfiction books about [4:57] 500-year American history and 50 years of American history, as a friend said, and you like repeating, [5:03] basically, my two fuckinging of America books. Right. [5:07] And so those certainly fed into this. And for a while, I was thinking, oh, I should maybe, [5:12] maybe I should write a nonfiction book about what the future could hold. I said, no, no, no, no, [5:17] I'm done with those. I'll return to novels. This is my fifth one. And so, but certainly I was fed by [5:24] that and fed by the last three years, as you say. I mean, when I started, it was set in the future, [5:29] so of course, AI would be part of it and robots and all that stuff. But a month after I started [5:35] writing, ChatGPT appeared. So it was like, whoa, this is cooperating life with my writing process. [5:42] And the Trump thing, of course, he was out of office and, you know, was running, but like, [5:49] you know, back then. And then, of course, 23 to 24 and here he is. So the last year and a half, [5:58] and I was basically done when he took off, almost done when he took office this time. [6:04] The horror show of this term, the nightmare beyond what I expected to tell the truth, [6:11] and I'm not alone in that, obviously, and what one of my characters expected, who never, [6:16] you know, thought her husband was overblown and hyperbolic and thinking, oh, it's this time, [6:23] it's going to be a threat to democracy, all these things. Well, it was one of his, you know, [6:29] I told you so moments to his wife in this story. And so, yeah, what has happened in the last year [6:37] and a half didn't require any kind of wholesale restructuring of my story, which was basically [6:45] complete, but certainly required me to go through and darken the backstory and make, you know, [6:53] the Trump 20s, as one of the characters calls them, more horrible and nightmarish [7:01] than I had had them in my, in the earlier draft. [7:05] If you've tried to quit vaping or smoking and somehow found yourself right back where you started, [7:14] you are not the problem. The way you've been trying to quit might be. So many approaches focus [7:22] only on nicotine or they expect you to rely on sheer willpower. But vaping was never just about [7:28] nicotine. It became a habit. That's why I think fume is such an interesting idea. It's a flavoured [7:35] air device designed to give your hands, your mouth, your brain something better to reach for when [7:42] cravings hit. Fume isn't a vape. It's a device designed to distract you from cravings when your [7:48] willpower isn't enough. You can enjoy over 10 flavours like classic peppermint, crisp mint, [7:55] spearmint ice, maple, pepper and peach blush. Over a million people have already used fume to quit [8:02] differently. Join them today and grab a journey pack plus a free gift with purchase when using my code [8:09] beast. Addiction is really good at saying later, don't let it. Head to tryfume.com. That's [8:18] t-r-y-f-u-m dot com. And use code beast for a free gift with your first purchase. Thank you fume [8:27] for sponsoring this episode. It's crossed my mind as we think about the way that Trump seems to be [8:36] setting the groundwork for the midterms. I mean, I have thought, and especially because we interviewed [8:42] Dr. Ruth Ben-Gheert last week, the academic from New York University who writes about autocracy and about [8:50] repression, is this a moment where actually America could break apart? That if the election feels [9:02] inconclusive, is it possible? And I can't even believe I'm saying it out loud, but is it possible [9:09] that there is real violence, that there is some kind of civil war in America? And you tackle that in the [9:16] book. I guess my question for you as a novelist is what does it feel like imagining and writing about [9:28] violence in the country that you live in? Is it good karma to do that? [9:33] That's a good question. I hadn't thought of it as bad karma or good karma. I think it's useful to squarely [9:41] and clear-eyedly face the various possibilities, the various contingencies. And I'm not saying this [9:48] is inevitable or even that it's probable, but I'm saying certainly that it's possible and I think [9:56] I've depicted it plausibly. And I think that in the last year and a half, in the last three years since [10:02] I began writing this book, it has become much less far-fetched than it seemed when I began as, [10:09] oh, this would be interesting to think about. So no, I don't think it's bad karma. I do think [10:17] it is so difficult to think about and so horrific to think about the war and the violence, let alone [10:24] breaking the country into parts. But I also think we'll provide an ability for people to look at this [10:32] future possibility with some basis for thinking about it and some framework for thinking about it. [10:40] All right. Well, I'm going to come on to the blurbs you've got in a moment and ask you [10:44] how much you paid for them because the blurbs for this book are outrageous. But I wanted to ask you [10:49] something else first. You've got a very good line in there about how American journalists refer to [10:54] everything as a tragedy. And I'm actually going to quote it and you go, life is half tragedy, [11:00] for Christ's sake, maybe more than half, which is one of the reasons why I grade almost everything [11:06] on a curve. And I guess my question is, are we living through an American tragedy? [11:12] A short answer? Yes. I do think that we are already in a tragedy. And I don't see how we [11:24] get out of it suddenly or without pain of some degree between here and whatever the end is. I mean, [11:33] that's the thing, isn't it, I find, is to imagine a happy ending. A happy ending for Trump or a happy [11:43] ending for America? Well, for America. And what I want to say is, I mean, this book is immediately [11:49] categorized by the algorithms as, oh, it's dystopian, maybe dystopian satire, but still dystopian fiction. [11:55] And I had a conversation with my friend and blurber, Gary Steingart, who writes dystopian satires. [12:02] And he's got a great blurb, but we'll go on to that in a minute. [12:06] He does, but I said, do you think of your fiction as dystopia? He said, eh, it's, [12:11] and basically he said, it's, they're comedies. So sure, but, and I said, I agree because I feel like [12:19] dystopias are where there are zombies and everything is collapsed and it's rubble and wreckage and oh, [12:25] my God, it's horrible. I mean, on the other hand, if you want to say we're in, we're in a, [12:31] in a quasi dystopian situation now, I'd buy that too. So, but, but I feel one of the things I ended [12:39] up writing with the breakup is, is an ending. I wouldn't call it a happy ending because there's a [12:46] war and there, and there's breaking up of the country, but as with divorces and some of us at [12:54] this table have been divorced. And, and, and, you know, one knows they're painful and complicated [13:01] and awful in many ways and some many worse than others, but, you know, sometimes they're mandatory [13:10] and sometimes there's no other way to manage such a thing. Well, and they can also be new beginnings. [13:16] Precisely. There is, as my wife, who, as lost I looked, we're still married, said to me as we were [13:22] talking about this very thing the other day, she said about the book, not our marriage. Not your [13:26] divorce, not your pending divorce. No, she said, you know, and no, she said, you know, it's horrible [13:32] and awful. And, and if you're lucky, liberating, you know? And so, you know, I think so in my, in, [13:41] in real life and certainly, and certainly in my story fought five, 10 years from now, uh, 15, [13:49] the war itself looked pretty horrible and dystopian, but I, I think, you know, uh, out of, out of facing [14:00] the facts and dealing with the facts at hand, if we can ever do that. And that, see, that's the thing [14:05] with this book and this story really is it's hard for me to imagine how we go back to, you know, [14:14] pursuit of happiness and everybody getting along, uh, without some giant spasm that, that provokes [14:24] everybody looking at things the way they are. Just, I, it's hard to imagine a great leader will [14:29] come, John Ossoff will come and lead us all together back to a normalcy. Maybe, and that would be great, [14:35] and I hope it happens, but, but for many years and more these days, I, I feel like the likelihood that [14:44] it's impossible for that to happen in a normal way without some kind of fever breaking invasion, [14:53] civil war. I don't know, who knows? It could be many things, but, uh, just on our own, given everything, [14:59] given the, the way we live in our digital bubbles and, and, and hate the other and hate the other and [15:05] hate the other and have, and have different views of how life should be led and countries should be [15:11] governed. It's hard to imagine it without such a, such a, such a violent, literally violent or, or not [15:19] rupture of some sort. Here's something most people don't realize. There are companies called data [15:27] brokers making billions by collecting and selling your personal information, your address, phone [15:33] number, family members, even details about your income. And it's not just about junk mail. 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Okay, so you quote in the beginning of the book, in your page of quotations, [16:38] actually one of my favorite authors, Charles Dickens. And I hadn't read this full quote for a [16:43] long time, and I'm actually going to get you to read it for us. Because people will know the first [16:50] line, but we often forget what follows. And actually, someone else was imagining this 120 years ago, [16:57] another writer. So why don't you just read it? But you're in the British one, shouldn't you be [17:02] reading it? Well, you know what, I was going to read it, and then I thought, you know what, [17:05] ask the author to read it. And I'm not asking you to read your own words, which is probably cheeky, [17:10] but it's also very relevant to what you're talking about. And of course, he was writing about a [17:18] completely different world 120 years ago, which at the time seemed as disruptive as what we're living [17:25] through now, I think. Absolutely right. And I'm so, I'm really happy you had me do this, because [17:31] again, it's instead of just the famous first line, it goes on so beautifully. It's so good. [17:37] So evokes the present moment. And of course, he's writing about another revolution, the previous [17:41] revolution, the, at that point, 70-year-old French revolution. It was the best of times, [17:48] it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, [17:53] it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of light, [17:58] it was the season of darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair. We had [18:04] everything before us, we had nothing before us. We were all going direct to heaven, we were all [18:09] going direct the other way. It's so good, isn't it? It gave me goosebumps, to tell you the truth. [18:15] Yes, it does. Well, and it gives me goosebumps hearing you read it. And I'm rereading Great [18:20] Expectations at the moment. The best one, you mean? The best book? Maybe? Well, is it the best one? [18:26] Well, I don't know. It's one of the top five. We could argue about that. One of the top five. [18:29] Yes, definitely. And I was thinking about The Atlantic wrote a piece, and in fact, [18:35] I was going to ask you this question. The Atlantic just wrote a long piece saying it's, [18:39] we are experiencing the ending of reading. So I wanted to know what you thought about writing a novel, [18:44] if we're going through the end of reading. In the piece, she talks about how our syntax and our [18:49] grammar is getting more simple. That actually, precisely because people aren't reading people [18:55] like Dickens, who write in long sentences with endless clauses and complicated plot lines that [19:01] you have to follow, we're actually all getting slightly simpler. But did you think about writing [19:08] a novel for people now? Novels feel somehow less relevant. I find them much harder to read. And I [19:16] thought The Peace in the Atlantic was both ridiculous, but also led to a greater truth, [19:21] which is if you don't write and you don't read as much, your thinking changes. [19:26] All beautifully and perfectly said. What I think is that ambitious literature has always been read by [19:36] minorities, mostly, which is a minorities of the population. It's not as though, I mean, yes. [19:42] Well, it's an elite pastime, we should say. Exactly. And of course, Dickens was not. [19:47] But I think, yes, the novel, way before there were computers, which is to say in my youth, [19:55] in your youth, even your babyhood practically, and starting around the 70s and 80s, you know, [20:01] there are exceptions along the way. Tom Wolfe wrote a novel that was very, very popular and was a [20:06] serious book. Oh, The Bonfire of the Vanities, which my then husband, we went on safari. I had [20:12] taken with me The Bonfire of the Vanities and he complained the entire trip. I never once looked up [20:17] to look at the animals because I was so riveted by it. Oh, there you go. Such a good book. [20:21] It is a good book. And he was not so much for his fiction, although I was impressed by that [20:27] coming out by his earlier nonfiction. But, you know, back when I was a young person, a child, [20:36] where Gore Vidal and all kinds of novelists, I mean, John Updike, Philip Roth, were big [20:45] celebrities on the cover of Time magazine, which was a giant thing. Right, which was itself a big thing. [20:51] On The Tonight Show, all those things. So all the ways in which novelists and novels were central to the [20:57] culture peaked, you know, 40, 50 years ago. And so I grew up, I didn't start writing novels until 1996, [21:07] nine. So that's the world we've been given. So is it less so? We'll see. You know, there are still [21:16] giant bestsellers that are much, much longer than this book, you know, for instance. So, [21:21] you know, it's, it's, and there are 330 million people in this country. If 330,000 of them read a [21:32] book, it's a gigantic bestseller. So it doesn't need to be for everybody, as long as it, you know, [21:39] in one's hope that people read it and it affects how they think about the world and people and all the [21:45] rest. So I don't, it doesn't, I, sure. And I worry about in the best of times, worst of times, [21:55] approach to what AI will do to us. Well, were I to have grandchildren, and hope I will. [22:04] Hear that, Kate and Lucy, right? Well, yes. Kate and Lucy, Kurt's daughters. I think that's a sign. [22:11] I think your father's speaking to you through the podcast. We've had, we've had these conversations. [22:16] But, you know, how, how it will be to have to think less and write less as a child growing up [22:25] today, where he goes, uh, Claude, tell me everything I need to know about this. And I use it and it's [22:30] useful. But the, the, the downside of that, of, of, of making one think more simply, making one be more [22:39] about images than text. We'll see. We had Dick Costolo on the podcast last Friday, and he, [22:48] former CEO of Twitter, and he is investing now in a lot of AI, but he says he fears AI actually [22:56] signals the end of thinking, that we're all going to think differently because this thing thinks for [23:01] us. So why would you do the hard work of thinking and trying to sort something out for yourself if [23:07] someone, if something else can do it so fast for you? No, that is the great fear. And, you know, [23:12] because it's an epic of ignorance and an epic of genius or whatever. Right. Belief and incredulity. [23:19] Indeed. But then for those of us who have already learned to think and write, um, uh, it's an [23:26] extraordinary tool just in my little, but less little these days use of it as a, as this super, [23:34] hyper amazing research tool. And, and, and, and instead of just having a thesaurus reckons, [23:39] what's that attitude I'm thinking? I can have a conversation about the precise context of the [23:44] word I'm looking for. So I find for, so basically for smart people, it'll make you smarter for people [23:52] who have no, you know, what either aren't there yet, or just like, aren't particularly curious or, [23:58] you know, uh, interested in reading. Eh, well, you'll get stupider. I mean, I mean, that's the, [24:05] that's a hard way to look at it. Similarly with, with the, the wealth situation, what it will do to [24:11] the political economy. You know, if we keep ha, if we continue having the, this version of capitalism [24:17] in this country, we do. And, uh, you know, the Zuckerbergs and, and, and, uh, Elons, Elons of the [24:25] world, you know, have all the money if, and are the tech and, and control big tech as they do today. [24:31] Well then that's pretty dystopian. But so, however, if, if AI can be part of creating such bounty and [24:39] such and relieving people of the need to do drudge filled labor, and there's all this bounty to share, [24:47] we can share it and it'd be a closer to utopia than dystopia. So, you know, and that's the question [24:53] of, you know, what you want to live in Norway in the United States in 50 years. I don't know. [24:57] We'll see. No, good question. Uh, which one will melt faster? I wonder. All right. I'm going to, [25:03] I'm going to read a couple of blurbs from, for your book, and then I want to move on to talk about [25:08] another dystopian figure, Pete Hegseth, um, who I know you've been, you've been watching this week. [25:15] All right. This is from Gary Steingart. Uh, pairing two divorces, one personal, one national, [25:21] within a novel that's funny and beautiful is something few writers could do. Thank you universe [25:28] for Kurt Anderson and this page turner. If that isn't thanking the universe, who writes that? [25:34] How much did you pay him? I bought him a drink afterwards. I did buy him a drink. [25:38] All right. But it was, it was, it was afterwards and it wasn't promised. It was just a friendly drink. [25:43] Okay. All right. And then another quote, this is from Walter Isaacson, who of course wrote the books, [25:48] the biographies on Elon Musk and Steve Jobs. Kurt Anderson is the most brilliant social novelist [25:54] of our time in the tradition of Tom Wolfe, who you mentioned and Don DeLillo, but even funnier [26:00] and deeper with a light touch and an instinct for telling details. He mixes pitch perfect satire with [26:06] profound insights. Okay. That's enough. And here's my promise to you is that we will call the White House [26:12] and ask them what they think of you imagining Donald Trump's death on the golden escalator. [26:18] We'll see what he says. We'll see what machine gun lips Caroline Levitt. [26:24] Yes. Or Steven Chung, my favorite of those people. Well, Steven Chung is better on, he's a, [26:28] he's a scumbag. He's better on the brutal, brutish thing. But interestingly, I had a book out in 2009 [26:37] called Reset that the New York Post called Donald Trump to ask about. And because I'd compared him [26:45] in that book unfavorably to Warren Buffett, who, who I knew as a child, because we both grew up in [26:50] Omaha. Oh, of course, Nebraska, right. And saying, Warren, good, good billionaire. Donald, [26:57] the idiot, Donald Trump in 2009, bad billionaire. And he, he gave a great quote and included me in his [27:03] pantheon of third rate writers. Well, he probably, the fact you called him a bad billionaire, [27:08] because he probably wasn't a billionaire at that point, technically, right? But he just, [27:12] that, that seems to be, as long as you describe him as rich, he's happy. [27:16] Yeah, that's probably true. All right. So let's talk about the goons that he has around him. [27:21] You mentioned John Ossoff earlier, John Ossoff, particularly good filleting both Jay Clayton, [27:27] who's standing for the national intelligence job to replace Tulsi Gabbard and the acting intelligence [27:34] chief, Bill Pulte, and also Pete Hegseff. What did you think of Hegseff at his hearings? [27:42] I, I am, I keep a running list in my head, have since 2017, of who in, in Washington, basically, [27:52] I am most viscerally, I find just the, the loathing I feel on a visceral level beyond, [27:59] kind of beyond policy, just who do I really hate? And it, and it changes and I rank them one to 10. [28:05] I haven't done it in a while, but, um, uh, Pete Hegseff is very high up there right now. And I, I, [28:12] and I, I hate watch him avidly. And so I loved. You hate watch him avidly. [28:22] The, the, the, the confrontation of calm, even keel, never yelling, but not without emotion, [28:31] Senator Ossoff talking to him about, basically it was about, this was a, this was a, this was a [28:39] hearing, I think of. Is this where he's, he's asking for more money? He's asking for, yeah. So [28:45] it's the appropriations, it's the Senate Appropriations Committee. And, and Ossoff [28:48] is saying, well, four months ago, uh, 16 days or whatever it was into the war, [28:53] you were saying we have destroyed their military and their combat incapacitated, [28:59] I think was the phrase or something close. And, uh, he said, uh, do, was that an inaccurate [29:05] statement? So it was a very kind of not you liar or you, whatever, just was that an inaccurate [29:10] statement? And of course Hegseff says, well, we sunk the Navy, which is like, oh, we were so, [29:16] everyone is so worried about the Iranian Navy before we sunk it in, in a day. And it's the, [29:21] it's the thing that he and Trump always said, like, well, we sunk the Navy and we, [29:25] we got rid of the air force. So we didn't answer the question. And he said, I'm asking you, uh, [29:29] Mr. Hegseff, if that's, that was an inaccurate statement. You also said this, he goes, he repeats [29:34] this again and again and again. And, and each time Hegseff getting angrier and angrier in his high T, [29:40] uh, way, um, uh, uh, doesn't answer and just says, no, well, we did this and we did this. And he said, [29:47] and then he also asked him, um, but, uh, he just, he basically just, and keeps even keeledly asking, [29:56] was that an inaccurate statement or was that an accurate statement? And then finally, I actually, [30:00] uh, uh, wrote it down. Uh, I mean, yes, Iran's military has been completely destroyed, [30:08] combat ineffective. That's not accurate, is it? And he just never will give in. And, and just in his [30:14] increasing undone-ness at being asked this very simple question was, were you wrong when you said [30:22] this war is about over four months ago, uh, or not? And he wouldn't, and, and it was just, he was, [30:28] you could see the, in his comic book way, the, the smoke coming out of his head is calm young John [30:34] Ossoff, um, um, was questioning. It was fantastic. So also seems to have shot up. We've discussed this [30:42] on Mr. Trump's head seems to have shot up the ladder of democratic hopefuls. I mean, two appearances [30:52] that suddenly put him in front of people. And as you say, incredibly calm, wasn't reading. I mean, [30:58] I always find it interesting and I find it frankly, a bit disappointing, the level of questioning that [31:04] goes on from senators and the way they lead that the way they read the questions. And you think, [31:09] are you not on top of this material? Did your people not brief you? Are you nervous you're [31:14] going to get it wrong? But, but, and sometimes you're sitting on the edge of your seat worrying [31:20] that they're going to get the question out wrong somehow. And you had none of that anxiety with him. [31:25] He seemed completely in control of the material, wasn't going to get annoyed. And as you say, [31:30] the contrast with Pete Hegseth just seemed increasingly obvious. Do you trust this man? And also Hegseth, [31:39] who was in charge of two veteran affairs associations, both of which he left unceremoniously [31:47] after people complained he was a chaotic manager and there were financial shenanigans. [31:52] Yes. Yes. As opposed to this multi-trillion dollar operation he's now running. No, [31:58] and it was extraordinary. So Asaf, I mean, again, what Asaf has, in addition to being smart, [32:04] obviously, is, is just enough performative ability. And in this day and age to be considered [32:12] as a possible president, certainly, that's a necessary thing, whether you're, you know, [32:19] Barack Obama or in his way, Donald Trump. You need to be a good character in the show. And by the way, [32:28] congressional hearings are shows. They just are. You know, I mean, yes, when I was 17 years old or 18 [32:35] years old watching the Watergate hearings, there was apparently revelations about the White House [32:41] secret taping system existing, but they knew that. They knew that ahead of time that that was going to [32:45] be the big story of the day. It's a show. And so you have to, you know, both put on a show, but not seem [32:54] too much like you're putting on a show, which is one of Hegseth's problems and many of the... [32:58] Well, and Pam Bondi's problem and Kristi Noem's problem, that they come and they're like, [33:03] this is for an audience of one. I'm going to get really angry because that's what worked for Brett [33:07] Kavanaugh, oddly. Exactly. [33:09] I think he sort of set the standard for the current shows. [33:11] Oh, Kavanaugh? [33:11] Yeah, the sort of red face, puce anger, flex spitting fury. [33:17] Well, especially when he was facing then Senator Kamala Harris, who was, [33:21] again, this kind of calm prosecutorial questioner. No, absolutely, that's right. [33:27] And they, I mean, because the WWE and professional wrestling sort of is so much their model for [33:36] the show in the largest sense of the Trump show, you know, no, Pam Bondi comes on as a caricature [33:43] of a villain. I'm a tough villain lady. And Hegseth in his cartoon way and his hair, which I [33:49] was worried as I was combing my hair. I said to Anne, I said, is my hair a little too Hegseth-y? [33:54] But no, he, and his little stupid... [33:58] Oh, his pocket square, his pocket square, which is like an accessory you would buy from American [34:03] girl dolls, right? [34:04] Well, he is, he's like a cartoon character, but he also, he's like a cartoon character in the famous [34:09] Liechtenstein pop art pictures of, of, of these, you know, military heroes going pop, bang, [34:17] wow. That's Hegseth. He's, he's, he's, he's ridiculous, which is why I like watching him [34:21] as much as I do. [34:22] Who are the other cabinet members that you similarly, I mean, you said you had a list [34:27] of the worst people around Trump. Pam Bondi's now left, Kristi Noem's now left. Actually, [34:33] the women are basically left. Who are the others that you hate watch? [34:36] Well, Bobby Kennedy, of course. [34:39] Bobby Kennedy, from whom you bought cocaine when you were at Harvard. [34:44] That's the one time I bought cocaine in my life. He was my cocaine dealer. [34:47] Right. [34:47] But for instance, as Pete Hegseth now, in his caricature, self-parodying way, [34:53] wants every member of the armed services, all several million of them, including women, [34:58] to get tested for whether they have high, low, potentially low testosterone, because obviously [35:04] he's, they want to be, they should all be as jacked up as I am, is I'm sure what he's thinking. [35:08] Interestingly, of course, Bobby Kennedy, not so long ago on Stephen Miller's wife's podcast, [35:15] said... [35:16] You may be one of the only people that's watched Stephen Miller's wife's podcast. [35:20] My people give it to me. [35:21] Katie Miller. [35:21] Katie Miller's podcast. [35:23] Katie Miller's podcast. [35:24] Bobby Kennedy said that Mehmet Oz, the actual doctor who works for Bobby Kennedy in the [35:30] Health and Human Services Department, said that he checked over Donald Trump's testosterone levels, [35:36] and that he, Dr. Oz, had never seen a level that high in somebody over 70. [35:42] So they're just all, and you know, and of course, Hegseth and Bobby Kennedy famously, [35:48] you know, did their pull-ups together in jeans and shirtless, because they're just, [35:55] you know, in this, I don't know, to me, kind of homoerotic gym rat photo op life that they're all about. [36:04] And like, I got my test of high T. And so, but yeah, Bobby Kennedy. I mean, he's not, [36:12] you don't see him that much anymore. He's not as front and center. [36:16] And I'm assuming that's deliberate, that they understand that the vaccines really don't play. [36:21] They might play with a curious part of the MAGA base, but they don't play with the entire MAGA base. [36:25] That's true. And he, I think, I also think he's not, he's not smart and he's kind of dumb, but he's not, [36:33] I think he may be thinking about his next chapter and like, maybe it's time to sort of separate [36:38] myself from this guy a little bit. You know, although still occasionally on, in the family, [36:47] in Katie Miller's podcast, reminding everybody that the president has very, very high testosterone. [36:54] High testosterone. So he's separating himself from Trump and clearly the Trump people, [36:59] I'm sure this is organized by Susie Wiles, are slightly separating themselves from him. [37:04] What about J.D. Vance? Have you read J.D. Vance's book Communion yet? [37:08] I started it and I moved on to other things. I moved on to regime change, but no, I haven't. [37:13] And I'm eager to because he is, he is, he's also in my top 10 of loathsome. I mean, maybe the, [37:21] maybe number one. Again, I won't commit to that now because I haven't thought it through, but [37:25] J.D. Vance may be the top. Because he's just such, so completely craven, combined with what has seemed [37:36] along the way and what he makes a show of being, you know, this sanctimonious searching for God and [37:45] purpose and escaping his unhappy childhood and all that. So the sanctimony, which I understand the [37:56] book is full of and about his journey to a better version of Catholicism than the Pope himself has [38:05] done. But have you read it? I'm slightly stuck on page 100. I had a sort of run at it. And it's, [38:15] as far as I can see, it's really about him looking for something to do. And I haven't quite got to the [38:21] Catholicism bit yet. I've got to the point where he meets Peter Thiel and Peter Thiel, like the Pied [38:25] Piper, leads him off to Silicon Valley. Have you watched his wife's podcast, Storytime with the Second [38:33] Lady? Again, I've seen only clips. I saw, I watched her whole one with the president, [38:40] which, again, was just such a wonderful spectacle of the man I call, among other things, the greatest [38:47] self-parodist of all time, Donald Trump. It was just remarkable. So that was remarkable. But no, [38:52] I've not watched Usha's other podcasts. Well, it's worth watching because we have Cheryl Hines. So [39:00] she talks, so the story she chooses is… Well, that's my Bobby Kennedy wheelhouse. [39:04] Well, exactly. And the story she chooses to read is The Three Little Pigs. And when Usha Vance [39:10] asks her, why did you choose this story? Literally, Cheryl Hines says, apparently, without irony, [39:17] I like pigs. It just hangs in the air there. And J.D. Vance, whose story is, it's A.A. Milne, [39:27] it's Christopher Robin, which she manages to overcomplicate. He says it's quite difficult to [39:32] understand the beginning. And it's like, it's literally the easiest, most beautiful children's [39:38] story you could imagine. What, Winnie the Pooh? [39:39] Mm-hmm. Winnie the Pooh. [39:41] J.D. Vance talks about Winnie the Pooh with… Yeah, J.D. Vance reads a Winnie the Pooh story. [39:47] That was my first important book, was Winnie the Pooh. Oh, wonderful books, [39:51] absolutely wonderful books and great illustrations. You should read those. I'd buy the audio book of [39:56] Joanna Cole's reading Winnie the Pooh. Oh, maybe I should do that. Maybe I should [40:00] do that. All right. And then you could do it in the Melania accent as well, [40:02] and I would love it even more. Oh, yeah. How would you go, [40:06] Winnie, or Winnie the Pooh? Yeah. I read Winnie the Pooh to Baron, [40:10] Baron Trump. He not like books, Baron. He like Tate Brothers. Tate Brothers. Are the Tates going to be [40:16] extradited? I thought it was a good move that the White House said they weren't going to stand in the [40:21] way of the Tate Brothers. And if the British wanted to take them back, they could. I don't know how far [40:26] they can get that moving. It's a little surprising. [40:27] Yeah. I was very surprised by that because they helped them get out of Romania. [40:31] Yeah. Yeah. I'm so horrified by them and Andrew, who I know more about than their brother, [40:42] and I know what I'm going to find if I read more, so I don't. I know the basic [40:46] horror show misogynist warriors stories that they are. I enjoyed watching The Arrest, though. I enjoyed [40:54] seeing what Andrew Tate, because I'm superficial on some level, was wearing, which is to say, [41:00] as Tom Nichols, I think, said, and I agreed with him and extended his… [41:04] Tom Nichols at The Atlantic. [41:06] At The Atlantic. He said, basically, [41:09] somebody said, what are these? Are these shorts? What are the pants that he's wearing? And he said, [41:14] no, they're capri pants, which Mary Tyler Moore made famous back in the 60s, which I thought was [41:20] hilarious, being old, too, and remembering the Dick Van Dyke show and Mary Tyler Moore. And I saw that [41:25] he, in fact, he had on the same flats, the same sort of slippers that Mary Tyler Moore wore on that [41:31] show, which I was able to add to the comparison. But no, so I enjoyed that. And God knows they should [41:37] be sent back and, you know, those are some aliens that should be deported, certainly. But no, I've not, [41:46] I mean, that's, you know, I have a maximum of trash I need in my mind at any moment. So, [41:55] the Tates have not yet really… I don't want more of them in my head. [42:00] Well, fair enough. Well, let's hope that Andy Burnham, the new prime minister of Britain, can [42:05] put them up on trial. I have a question about Andy Burnham. [42:08] Far away. Well, it won't be a long conversation. And again, superficial. Why does Burnham [42:13] look so like Keir Starmer? And there's been previous prime ministers who look, there's like, [42:22] there's one, you know, white man, Englishman look that those two have and others have. And then [42:29] occasionally there's the, you know, the Indian British guy, and then there's the women occasionally, [42:35] but otherwise they all look like this kind of wankery guy. Why is that? [42:41] Interesting. I actually hadn't thought they looked similar, partly because I think they give off [42:46] such different energy. And Andy Burnham, first of all, who knew that there could be a Labour [42:51] politician who was quite so ruthless? I mean, the ability he's had to get rid of Keir Starmer, [43:00] who made the party electable, who took over from the real socialist, Jeremy Corbyn, who made Labour [43:08] unelectable… And gave socialism a bad name. [43:10] And gave socialism a terrible name and was an anti-Semite. How Keir Starmer managed to lose his [43:20] job having been elected with such a big majority of Labour MPs is really a testament to Andy Burnham's [43:27] extreme ambition. And that he got someone to leave their seat, because you have to be an MP to be [43:34] prime minister. He was the mayor of Greater Manchester. He had been a cabinet minister and had left the [43:39] cabinet to go and run Manchester, which he did pretty successfully, actually. But he's got extreme [43:47] ambition and he's got an energy that Keir Starmer doesn't have. Keir Starmer was a prosecutor. I mean, [43:52] he was head of the Crown Prosecution Service. And he treats everything as if it's a legal problem. He's [43:57] got no ability to speak about vision. And he's a terrible public speaker. He was the guy that got the [44:04] party elected. And then he's had to step aside. And now he's hustling to be the secretary general [44:10] of the UN. Because why wouldn't you want to fly around countries? Dispensing advice, despite the [44:15] fact you couldn't run your own country. And as you say, he was overwhelmingly elected [44:21] and made Labour electable again, but also became… They don't all look the same. Boris Johnson didn't [44:26] look the same. Boris Johnson's another one. Boris is a total character. I'll send you the two pictures I [44:31] saw together of Starmer and Burnham saying, well, you know. And it's partly when a certain kind of [44:37] guy is standing outside 10 Downing and looking like this and worried, like trying to look serious [44:44] in the same way they tend to look. But they do. They're also just, they're just like, I don't know, [44:49] they're funny Englishmen to me. They're funny Englishmen. Well, the interesting thing about Andy [44:53] Burnham actually… You love Andy Burnham, I can tell. No, no, I don't love Andy Burnham. The jury is out on [45:00] Andy Burnham. For me, my jury is out, except that I like that he comes from the North, [45:05] because I come from the North, so I appreciate that part. I get that, I get that. But I also [45:10] like the fact that he could stand and talk to people without a podium. You know how normally, [45:14] and there's been this character, hot podium guy, who's the guy that carries the podium out for [45:20] the seven prime ministers that Britain has had over the last 10 years. Well, five in four years and [45:27] seven in 10 years. But he's become a character because people are like, oh, it's that guy again. [45:32] He comes out with his big arms and he's carrying the podium. Andy Burnham didn't want to compete [45:36] with hot podium guys, so he did it without the podium. Just spoke to people. He's a very good [45:41] politician. The difference between them, they may look similar because they're both guys of a certain [45:45] age. But Keir Starmer was a terrible politician. And Andy Burnham is a ruthless politician. And that may [45:53] be enough. Boris was the last good politician. Yeah, Rishi Sunak, not a great politician, [46:01] too technocratic, probably the smartest of all of them. And actually, if he'd had a bit longer, [46:06] might have helped with the economy. And Liz Truss, you know, head of lettuce. Was there ever a better, [46:15] I mean, the head of lettuce remains the best political commentary. Well, and they just had the [46:21] head of lettuce. Do you remember? And it was like, who will last longer? This head of lettuce. [46:25] And it wasn't the head of lettuce with cyclospora, as far as we know. Another treat from RFK Jr.'s FDA. [46:36] Yes. Well, no, indeed. And now we're getting to the problem, well, we already had, of course, with, [46:43] you know, the measles, not epidemic yet, but outbreaks that he's responsible for. The FDA, [46:51] not dismantling, but whatever, degradation, that's a very worrisome thing. [46:58] Well, and people really don't have explosive stomach issues. [47:02] Yeah. In general, most people don't. [47:04] Most people don't. Kurt Anderson, it's always a treat to have you in the studio. Thank you for coming in. [47:10] And I look forward to hearing what the White House say about the breakup and how you've spent your [47:17] last few years imagining Donald Trump's death. Wow. It was, it was a treat to me. And even though [47:23] it doesn't come out for another several weeks, it can be ordered now. [47:27] So people can pre-order the breakup on Amazon. Or anywhere. [47:31] Or your independent bookshop. Correct. [47:33] Your independent bookshop. I look forward to seeing you again soon. [47:38] Same. I love hearing from Kurt Anderson. [47:45] I really enjoyed reading his book. And there's almost no Donald Trump in it, actually. So don't [47:51] feel that you're going to be pursued by the man who seems to be in our waking consciousness at all [47:59] time. But write and tell us what you thought about the conversation. Who do you hate watch among the [48:04] current cabinet? And we'll be back on Monday with David Rothkopf to start your week with David's insights. [48:13] Thank you if you have been for watching, for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to the [48:18] podcast. The reason we can bring you conversations like this is because we are independent media. [48:23] And a big shout out to our production team. Ryan, Murray, John Romero, Rachel Passer, [48:29] Heather Passaro and Neil Rosenhaus. [48:32] So the good news is we have so many Bee Beast tier members now. There are too many names to read out. [48:38] And we really appreciate your support.