Why Crypto is Worse Than a Grift - with Ben McKenzie

[0:00] People hold you small. [0:02] It's such an advantage to be underestimated. [0:04] Series regular on a Fox sitcom from 2003. [0:07] Is sitcoms not a sitcom? [0:09] Sorry, sorry. [0:10] One hour drama is a scripted drama. [0:12] Scripted one hour. [0:13] Not at all a soap opera. [0:14] Capital D drama. [0:15] Capital D drama. [0:16] It was nominated for 16 choice awards. [0:18] I am. [0:18] I never won. [0:19] I am the Susan Lucci of the Teen Choice Awards. [0:22] I'm sorry. [0:22] I'm the Susan Lucci of the Teen Choice Awards. [0:24] I'm sorry. [0:26] I'm sorry that you're that. [0:27] Oh, you're just sorry. [0:28] Yeah. [0:28] OK, I thought you couldn't understand what I meant. [0:30] Yeah, you're just sorry. [0:31] Yeah, well, for both the fact that you didn't win. [0:33] And then also, I don't know who Susan Lucci is. [0:35] I've been putting this off, but it's finally time for me to step up [0:39] and face the fiercest keyboard warriors on the Internet. [0:42] I'm talking about the male Swifties, the blockchain brotherhood, [0:47] the Bitcoin bros. [0:48] They have been coming at me for years, [0:51] ever since I made a single joke on Patriot Act. [0:53] The only thing that should double that quickly is the value of Bitcoin. [0:56] Just kidding. [0:57] That was a garbage investment and you're an idiot. [0:59] Bitcoin is just Beanie Babies for tech bros. [1:02] And to this day, every time the price of Bitcoin pops, [1:06] some Twitter shit poster dunks on me about it. [1:08] But nobody hates crypto as much as my next guest, Ben McKenzie. [1:13] You might know Ben from his acting career, [1:14] playing Ryan on The O.C. [1:16] or Commissioner Gordon on Gotham. [1:18] But for the past four years, [1:19] Ben has been going hard in the paint [1:21] and has been partnering with journalist Jacob Silverman [1:23] to investigate and document fraud in the crypto market, [1:26] writing articles, publishing a book, [1:27] and now releasing a new documentary called [1:30] Everyone is Lying to You for Money. [1:32] So I sat down with Ben to talk about how the main use case for crypto [1:34] is still basically crime. [1:36] The next time you see an article about cryptocurrency, [1:38] exchange the word crypto for money laundering [1:41] and just see if the article makes sense. [1:42] Our fellow celebrities who have endorsed it. [1:44] No offense to Matt Damon, [1:45] but he doesn't know shit about blockchain. [1:46] and how the most important load-bearing wall of this, [1:50] let's call it a pyramid, [1:51] is now the president of the United States. [1:54] If you're putting money into something that Trump is backing [1:56] because you think you're going to make money out of it, [1:57] just know that he's a convicted fraudster. [1:59] Comment section? [2:01] Brace yourself. [2:10] Every heterosexual man has a group thread called Du Bois. [2:13] And during the pandemic, Du Bois thread was popping. [2:17] Right. [2:18] There was a lot of crypto talk, [2:20] a lot of BTC, a lot of Ethereum. [2:22] Yeah, a lot of cryptocurrency talk. [2:24] But what I am interested in talking to you about [2:27] is what got its hooks and fangs into even me [2:33] during that period of time [2:35] was this sense of not even necessarily greed, [2:40] but am I missing out on something? [2:41] Totally. [2:42] Is there something I don't get? [2:43] Money has always been this elusive, weird thing to me. [2:46] This kind of makes sense. [2:48] Do I need to look into this? [2:49] Am I dumb if I don't look into this? [2:50] Totally. [2:51] What was it titillating within you? [2:53] Yeah, it was absolutely- [2:54] Beyond boredom. [2:55] It was absolutely that aspect. [2:57] I've always been fascinated by money. [3:00] I was never good at math, so I was never going to be very good, [3:02] so I was never going to be an economist. [3:04] But I love the behavioral side of economics. [3:07] There's this guy, Robert Schiller, [3:08] who's a Nobel Prize winning economist, [3:09] who's very much influenced my work. [3:13] And he talks about these things called [3:16] naturally occurring Ponzi schemes. [3:18] And it's basically the price of a speculative asset goes up, [3:21] like way beyond what it could possibly be worth [3:23] in terms of its utility. [3:25] And people see that price going up, and they're like, [3:27] oh, it's going up. [3:27] I should buy in. [3:28] They buy in, which sends the price further, [3:30] and then more people. [3:31] And these things can go on for a very, very long time. [3:34] And as I looked at crypto, because crypto doesn't do any [3:37] of the three things that money's supposed to do, [3:39] medium exchange, unit of account, store value, [3:41] it can't be a medium exchange because the technology sucks. [3:45] It can only process five to seven transactions a second. [3:49] Visa and MasterCard can do 24,000. [3:51] So it just can't process transactions fast enough. [3:54] It can't serve as a unit account or store of value [3:57] because the price goes up and down. [3:58] The volatility. [3:59] Yeah, yeah. [4:00] So if it's not money, what is it? [4:01] It's an investment. [4:03] You put money into it, hope to make money off of it [4:05] through no work of your own. [4:06] That's literally an investment, [4:07] like the definition of an investment under American law. [4:10] Sitting, hodling. [4:11] Hodling, exactly. [4:12] It's called the Howey test, and it's got four prongs. [4:14] It's an investment of money in a common enterprise [4:18] with the expectation of profit to be derived [4:20] from the efforts of others. [4:21] And it's like super broadly defined [4:22] because people have had schemes to like make money for you [4:26] since Ponzi schemes are as old as, I mean, [4:28] you know, it's literally 100 years old, Ponzi. [4:31] They actually predated Ponzi, but whatever. [4:33] So when celebrities were out there selling this [4:35] like loosely regulated financial product with no understand, [4:41] I, no offense to Matt Damon, [4:43] but he doesn't know shit about blockchain. [4:44] History is filled with almosts, [4:48] with those who almost adventured, who almost achieved, [4:52] but ultimately for them, it proved to be too much. [4:56] But you're watching the commercial. [4:57] We got to, we got to play the footage. [5:03] Fortune favors the brave. [5:05] Does Matt Damon know about cryptocurrency? [5:17] Nothing. [5:18] Are you mad at him for this [5:20] or because he's more famous than you are? [5:22] Be taller too. [5:27] He's not taller. [5:29] All right, so it says he's 5'10", but I'm not sure. [5:33] I also say I'm 5'10". [5:35] You've called celebrities shilling Bitcoin a quote, [5:38] moral disaster, but you've been to Hollywood. [5:41] You're looking for salvation and morality at Deadline.com. [5:46] I'm sorry, I should have implied it. [5:47] You feel IMDB.com will be your salvation? [5:49] It's just that I know the standards are low, [5:52] but like if you're hawking a financial product, [5:55] and by the way, you're not disclosing [5:56] how much you've been paid for it, [5:57] which is one of the problems, right? [5:59] And then people lose money on that investment, [6:02] which a lot of people did on a lot of different [6:05] celeb-backed things, like Kim Kardashian did one, [6:07] and had to settle with the SEC, [6:09] and there's all these different people. [6:10] Like, it's just wrong, you know? [6:12] It's wrong, it's gross. [6:14] You also have a lot of money, [6:15] so why do you need to sell other people on this thing [6:17] that you haven't really done your homework on, [6:19] and it's shady, and yeah, do better. [6:21] You have a pretty brilliant montage [6:23] that you show in the documentary, [6:25] and I want us to go to it. [6:26] You're seeing a level of celebrity [6:29] that backs essentially blue chip companies, [6:33] and the feeling that I got when I was watching [6:35] those commercials in that moment is, [6:37] oh, this is too big to fail. [6:38] This is here. [6:39] Yeah. [6:40] Like, if Tom Brady, Shaquille O'Neal, [6:42] Steph Curry, and Matt Damon are talking about Toyota, [6:45] it's here to stay. [6:46] Right. [6:47] Like, this thing as an idea, as an entity. [6:51] How do you reconcile the feeling [6:55] that people feel watching that, [6:58] and then how you felt watching it on the couch? [7:00] I think it's really important [7:01] to understand what's happening. [7:03] Why are celebrities hired to hawk products? [7:06] Because people trust them. [7:08] They have a relationship with them [7:10] through the TV, through the movie screen. [7:13] And so there's a trust that they have [7:17] that they're then imputing [7:18] into the thing that they're selling. [7:20] And it's a very deliberate play [7:22] by the cryptocurrency industry. [7:24] Crypto is notorious. [7:25] Bitcoin people are notorious for saying, [7:26] Bitcoin has no marketing department, right? [7:29] Like, there's no central person in charge of it, right? [7:31] It's a decentralized ledger. [7:34] But crypto is really just a story. [7:37] It's just a story that you're gonna make money on it, [7:39] that whatever ails you is gonna be fixed by crypto [7:42] if you invest in it. [7:43] What's their core story? [7:44] You've said, quote, [7:45] Bitcoin is a story that will last [7:46] as long as people believe in it. [7:49] So what's the story and what's their core pitch? [7:51] The story can be anything that anyone wants it to be. [7:55] Like, at the end, it's sort of a projection [7:56] of the hopes and dreams of the investors, I would say. [7:59] Sorry, there's two groups. [8:01] There's the normal investors, [8:03] whether they have a ton of money or not, [8:04] whether they're institutional or not. [8:06] And then there's the criminals. [8:07] So cryptocurrency has incredible utility for criminals, [8:09] and we can talk about that. [8:11] But for the regular people that are buying it, [8:13] I interviewed many of them for the doc [8:16] for this particular scheme called Celsius. [8:18] Celsius. [8:19] Which ultimately went bankrupt, [8:20] and a lot of people lost a lot of money. [8:23] Regular people. [8:24] And so I posted on our Reddit and met these guys. [8:28] They were all guys, literally every single one of them. [8:30] And you would ask them questions. [8:33] Like, what did you, why'd you invest? [8:35] And this one guy, just absolutely heartbreaking, [8:38] a fellow Texan. [8:40] I think he worked construction or something. [8:41] Like, really, like, salt of the earth dude. [8:43] And he had a bunch of money in it, and he lost it. [8:47] And he was saying all he wanted was to, like, [8:50] be able to take more time off of work [8:51] and spend more time with his daughter. [8:53] It was heartbreaking. [8:53] Yeah, it was super heartbreaking. [8:54] You know, I have kids, [8:55] and you just, like, your heart breaks for him. [8:57] Mostly just a shot at freedom. [9:01] A shot at a little bit more claiming of my time back, [9:04] and that time I can't get with my daughter back. [9:09] And I just had so many plans, you know. [9:13] I feel like I let her do it. [9:16] The thing that's really hard, [9:17] one of the things that's really hard about crypto [9:19] is that there's only maybe, like, 5% of the population, [9:23] 5% or 6% of the population that's, like, really into it. [9:26] And then there's maybe another 10% that's, like, [9:27] kind of playing around with it, like, has ever bought it. [9:30] So you're talking about, like, 1 in 6 Americans, [9:32] but, like, really 1 in 20 that are, like, really into it. [9:38] The thing is, you're never going to be able to convince them [9:40] that it's not a good investment. [9:43] I asked all of the victims of Celsius, like, the same question. [9:47] Do you still believe in cryptocurrency? [9:49] Some of these people have lost their life savings. [9:52] Every single one of them said yes. [9:53] Wow. [9:54] Yeah. [9:54] Like, they didn't have to edit it. [9:56] I mean, we did edit it for time, [9:57] but, like, every single one said yes. [9:59] And they would have different reasons. [10:00] They would say, well, that one was a scam, [10:02] but Bitcoin I believe in, which is a big sort of theme. [10:05] But, like, when I say it's a projection [10:08] of their hopes and dreams, I really mean that. [10:10] I really think that people are, [10:12] and we should talk about, like, why people get into crypto [10:15] and gambling and prediction markets. [10:17] It's, like, we financialized everything [10:20] and we're pushing it so hard at dudes, [10:23] really specifically at young men. [10:25] There's two things that pull you in on the internet [10:27] if you're a straight dude. [10:28] Money shit or pervy shit. [10:31] Now, let's not focus on the latter. [10:33] Let's talk about the former. [10:34] Right. [10:35] And I think at the core of the money shit, [10:38] yes, one component of it is greed, [10:41] but there's this other component [10:44] which comes from a very real place of, [10:48] I have to have agency over my life. [10:51] Yeah. [10:51] And I am responsible for the circumstances in my life, [10:55] and society may be cold to me. [10:57] Nobody is gonna come to save me. [10:59] Right. [11:00] I feel like the institutions that are in place, [11:03] my employer, the government, the state, [11:06] these institutions have failed me. [11:07] There has to be a better way. [11:08] Totally. [11:09] And what spoke to me about cryptocurrency [11:12] and got me to waste endless hours during the pandemic [11:15] and not be with my loved ones was that idea. [11:18] Right. [11:18] That there has to be a better way. [11:20] Yes. [11:21] And I'm a fool if I don't take the agency [11:23] to explore and to start to study this. [11:26] Yeah. The crypto story is really simple. [11:29] It says the system as it exists now, [11:32] the regulated financial system, [11:34] our global financial system sucks. [11:36] It's like deeply unfair. [11:38] It's hard to navigate. [11:39] You don't have agency over your own life. [11:41] And they say that statement and, you know, [11:43] who agrees with that? [11:44] Everyone. [11:45] Sure. [11:45] Literally everyone agrees with that, [11:48] except for maybe some billionaires, right? [11:50] Right. [11:50] They'll have their different reasons [11:51] as to why it sucks, [11:52] but like they're gonna agree with the first. [11:54] Yeah, yeah. [11:54] Everybody but six people. [11:55] Right. [11:56] And then the second thing is Bitcoin fixes this, [11:59] which is literally like a meme at this point. [12:01] Yeah. [12:01] It's one of the things people say. [12:03] So it's a really simple argument [12:05] and I understand its appeal. [12:06] I do because I agree with the first one. [12:09] The system sucks and we should hate the banks. [12:11] There's been so many different ways [12:13] in which the big banks [12:15] and the federal government [12:16] have basically run amok. [12:18] Right. [12:18] And screwed over. [12:19] Let's not Wall Street, but Main Street. [12:21] Right. [12:21] But the caveat you give, though, is [12:23] and it's really interesting. [12:23] I don't have the answer here, [12:24] but you go, it's built on trust [12:28] and it's backed by the government [12:30] and we all trust the government. [12:33] But how do you reconcile? [12:34] Well, we don't now though, right? [12:35] That's exactly. [12:36] That's, I think, one of the things [12:37] that gave cryptocurrency so much currency [12:39] is that there's such deep trust, [12:41] distrust of the government. [12:42] And I think one maybe simpler way [12:44] of looking at it is [12:45] it's not that I'm pro-government, [12:46] it's that I'm pro-democracy working [12:50] to actually effectuate change [12:53] through our government. [12:54] But the problems with our government [12:57] are really based on the problems [13:00] with our supposed democracy, [13:03] where the will of the people isn't expressed. [13:05] Like the Supreme Court is not expressing [13:07] the majority's opinion [13:08] on a whole host of issues [13:10] because the Republicans rigged it. [13:12] The Senate, because of the way [13:14] the Constitution is set up, [13:15] doesn't represent the majority of the population. [13:16] The majority of senators don't represent [13:18] the majority of the population. [13:19] But the only way to really change that, [13:20] in my opinion, [13:21] is to strengthen the democracy [13:23] so that it actually represents [13:24] the will of the people. [13:25] So it sounds like the sell of Bitcoin [13:29] fundamentally was an anti-government, [13:31] anti-big bank position. [13:33] So you got super into Bitcoin 2020. [13:37] You and I, we were both super online [13:40] and we got into Bitcoin. [13:43] Then in 2022, we had crypto winter. [13:45] Bitcoin went from $69,000 in 2021 [13:48] to under $16,000. [13:50] In 2022, your book comes out in 2023. [13:55] You go on the I toldyouso.com book tour. [13:57] Yes, yes, happily. [13:59] SBF goes to prison. [14:01] Head of Binance goes to prison. [14:03] The whole thing was blowing up. [14:05] Let's fucking go. [14:06] Yes. [14:07] Then in 2024, after Donald Trump was elected, [14:11] Bitcoin shoots up to over $100,000. [14:14] What happened to make the price go up? [14:17] So remember the Robert Shiller thing, [14:19] the naturally occurring Ponzi schemes? [14:21] So because Bitcoin doesn't do anything [14:24] in the sense that like, it's not a currency [14:25] that you can actually like, [14:26] I can't go to my neighbor at Deli [14:28] and buy a bagel with Bitcoin. [14:29] They're going to look at me like I'm crazy. [14:32] It because you can't actually buy anything, [14:35] it has to have some other utility. [14:37] But mainly it's just a speculative instrument. [14:39] It's just something people gamble on, [14:41] betting the price is going to go up or down. [14:42] So Trump embraced crypto. [14:44] So Trump, as recently as 2019, called Bitcoin a scam. [14:47] Bitcoin, it just seems like a scam. [14:50] My personal theory is that [14:52] that's because he was cutting in on his core business. [14:54] You know, Trump is a real estate guy. [14:56] And, you know, there's a lot of money laundering [14:59] in real estate. [15:01] And I think he was kind of jealous that crypto, [15:03] you know, he wasn't getting in on his action. [15:06] Yeah, he wasn't getting in on his cut. [15:07] Yeah, he was getting in on his action. [15:08] And then in 2024, in the summer, [15:10] he really embraced it fully. [15:11] There were rumors before, [15:12] but he like spoke at the Bitcoin conference [15:14] to show a clip of in the movie. [15:15] Have a good time with your Bitcoin [15:17] and your crypto and everything else [15:20] that you're playing with. [15:21] And he obviously doesn't know what you think about it, [15:24] but like he knows it's gonna, [15:25] he can figure out a way to make money off of this. [15:28] And the price starts going up. [15:29] It had been like in the toilet, as you said, [15:31] and it starts going up and then it, yeah, it just surged. [15:33] And so by the time he's in office, [15:36] it's like, or somewhere around there, [15:37] it's like 120,000 or something like that. [15:40] How is Donald Trump and his family [15:41] making money off of crypto? [15:43] Because I've seen the dollar sign Trump meme coin. [15:45] But what else is there? [15:46] Sure, yeah. [15:47] So there's the meme coins that he did and Melania did. [15:49] Those think of those as Ponzi schemes very effectively, right? [15:52] Like you're gonna try to like release the coin. [15:54] You own 99% of it or some huge percentage of it. [15:58] If people put money into it, then the price goes up. [16:00] And at a certain point, you just like sell all of it [16:02] and you take whatever money you can get. [16:04] So those are actually smaller schemes. [16:06] The bigger scheme was this stable coin company. [16:08] So stable coins are this crypto [16:11] that's really important for me to understand. [16:12] It's basically a cryptocurrency that can only, [16:17] it's pegged one to one with a real currency [16:20] like the US dollar. [16:21] It's like a poker chip in the casino. [16:22] It's like something you could gamble with. [16:23] But it's also, if you're, if you're, [16:26] if the president of the United States, [16:28] the most powerful person in the world, [16:29] and you're selling the people on this product [16:32] and they're buying it, why are they buying it? [16:34] Well, one reason they're buying it is for access. [16:36] So Trump threw a dinner with like the top 25 investors [16:41] in his coin or something. [16:42] And they like went to like a, [16:44] did one of his country clubs and had a fancy dinner. [16:46] So he's literally pay, pay, pay to play, [16:48] like paying for access [16:49] to the most powerful man in the world. [16:51] Well, it's not only that, [16:52] but the stable coin got a $500 million investment [16:57] from this, um, sheik in, uh, Abu Dhabi. [17:00] Abu Dhabi. [17:02] And so what did the sheik get out of it? [17:05] Well, they got, uh, AI chips. [17:08] They got NVIDIA chips through this, you know, [17:10] circuitous deal with, with Trump and his family. [17:14] And they got a pardon for the guy from Binance, actually. [17:16] The guy that ran Binance, CZ, [17:18] Sheng Peng Zhao, uh, [17:20] pled guilty to money laundering [17:21] during the last administration [17:22] and we've done four months in prison. [17:24] And, and Trump gave him a pardon. [17:25] CZ's now in, in the UAE. [17:28] So that's corruption, you know what I mean? [17:31] Sure. That's a crime. [17:32] Classic. It should be a crime. [17:33] I mean, it's, it's, it's so big that it's so hard to fathom [17:37] because it just blows any other president out of the water. [17:39] Yeah. It's, it's so like, um, cartoonish. [17:42] Yeah. And I mean, I really think it's worth, like, [17:44] for crypto people that are still out there believing in it, [17:47] if you're putting money into something that Trump is backing [17:50] because you think you're going to make money out of it, [17:51] just know that he's a convicted fraudster. [17:54] He's been convicted of 34 counts, [17:55] 34 felonies in the state of New York by a jury. [17:58] So, you know, just bear that in mind. [18:00] Just be, be aware of that. Beware. [18:01] Okay. [18:02] We've been talking big picture, but let's get specific. [18:04] Let's do some crypto one-on-one, shall we? Love it. [18:05] All right. [18:06] What is the white paper by Satoshi Nakamoto [18:08] and why does it sound like a racist manual written by a Japanese dude? [18:12] That's a great question and a great way of, uh, [18:14] I mean, I mean, it's a wild thing to be like, read the white paper. [18:17] Yeah. Yeah. [18:18] So a couple of things about the white papers, [18:19] like the first where, where Bitcoin originated. [18:22] It was like a, um, a paper that was dropped on a, um, [18:26] like a basically a chat group, a chat, uh, board, uh, in 2008, [18:31] written by Satoshi Nakamoto. [18:33] Who's Satoshi Nakamoto? We don't know. [18:34] We don't know. [18:35] Uh, so much speculation, so many bad documentaries about, [18:39] you know, who is Satoshi Nakamoto. [18:40] Yeah. [18:41] Uh, most likely the person that was Satoshi is dead in my opinion, [18:44] because it was two cryptographers that, um, [18:46] not in any like, like malicious, like not in a way that's like a conspiracy theory. [18:51] I'm just saying they probably used one of these two guys, [18:53] but anyway, whoever it is, we don't know who made it. [18:57] They had all these nice things that they said about how it was going to change everything, [19:01] but very quickly, like within two years, like it really comes out in 2009. [19:07] In, but two years later, it, it, it finds a use case through criminal activity on the Silk Road, [19:13] um, the dark web drug marketplace that I mentioned. [19:16] Yeah. [19:16] So like whatever the intentions of Satoshi, which could be a person, [19:21] could be multiple people, we don't know. [19:22] Um, it was really quickly like co-opted by criminals, [19:26] including Jeffrey Epstein, which we could talk about if you want. [19:28] Do you know what flossing, the DMV and hiring all have in common? [19:32] They take forever. [19:34] And that is why they suck. [19:36] The average employer has to sort through 250 resumes per job just to hire one person. 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[20:25] Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a high quality candidate [20:28] within the first day. [20:29] And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Hassan. [20:32] That is ZipRecruiter.com slash Hassan. [20:35] Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. [20:37] Guys, we got to talk about your secret late night internet searches. [20:41] Yeah, this is an intervention folks. [20:43] You know the ones I'm talking about. Bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. [20:46] Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. [20:49] We all do it and it never works. [20:52] Thankfully, there is Amazon Health AI. [20:54] It connects your symptoms with your medical history and it can even get you care 24-7. [20:58] So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. [21:01] Healthcare just got a little less painful. [21:04] You drew this very helpful triangular shaped diagram to explain how cryptocurrency works. [21:08] What's going on here? [21:10] Okay. So new investors are putting money into a scheme, [21:16] but they're not the first, the ones on the bottom. [21:18] There were people that got in before them, people that got in before them. [21:20] And at the top, there's the promoter, the person that's like selling it. [21:23] This is called a pyramid scheme, which is kind of different from a Ponzi scheme. [21:29] It's more like a multi-level marketing scheme, right? [21:32] Where like I've heard crypto described as Mary Kay for men. It's like a way of that joke will kill. [21:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [21:39] Avon for dudes. [21:40] Like 50 years old, but probably not people that are younger who don't know what Mary Kay is. [21:44] But anyway, you know, somebody's selling you on this thing. [21:49] They own an enormous amount of it. [21:51] They basically say, they deputize all these other people and say, hey, you know, if you help me sell [21:58] this, you'll get a cut of it. Then they sell it. Then those people sell it. And so it funnels out in [22:05] a sort of a pyramidal shape. Celsius, the Ponzi scheme type thing that I document in the documentary [22:15] is a form of a multi-level marketing scheme, I would say. So what they're really relying on is [22:22] like every individual person seeing the people before them, the smaller group of people having [22:27] made money on the thing, and then thinking they can make money on it. And you know, that can work [22:32] for a while. But MLMs, multi-level marketing schemes, ultimately usually fail. Although some of them [22:39] don't. Some of them have gone on for a long, long time. [22:41] I mean, isn't this how every company kind of works too as well? [22:44] I mean, it looks like the promoter at the top looks like the CEO. Those look like employees. [22:50] Like, isn't this the way money funnels up in every corporation anyways? [22:53] Yeah, I mean. [22:53] Or, you know, Planet Fitness or gym memberships. [22:56] Right, right. Well, but you're getting, you're getting something out of it. [22:58] Knives. [22:59] Yeah, you're getting something out of it, right? I mean, in a regular company like Apple, [23:03] they're selling you products that you're buying that actually work, that are good. But like, [23:07] it's all predicated on not so much the product, but the selling of the product. So, you know, one person, [23:13] the top is your upstream and the bottom is your downstream. You're making the people that get [23:19] into it make money on the people they recruit to buy it. [23:22] Why is crypto used so much for crime and money laundering? [23:26] Because of the pseudonymity of the blockchain. Because you can't tell who is sending what where, [23:34] and you're avoiding banks. Right. [23:36] It's really, really helpful for criminals. The next time you see an article about cryptocurrency, [23:41] try this exercise. Exchange the word crypto for money laundering and just see if the article makes [23:47] sense the same way. Because I would say money laundering is probably at the top of its sort of [23:53] use cases. Crypto is really only good for gambling and crime. The gambling is just betting the price is [23:58] going to go up or down. That's a zero sum game, much like playing poker at a casino, except you're playing [24:02] at an unregulated casino. So, you know, you might win and then go to the teller to get the money and [24:07] you don't get the money because they've shot it. But for the crime, it's good for money laundering, [24:12] sanctions evasion, tax evasion, child and human trafficking. Jeffrey Epstein was a big fan of [24:20] Bitcoin and invested early on in Bitcoin. What is Jeffrey Epstein's connection to Bitcoin? [24:25] Absolutely. So I just did a video on this. So Epstein apparently heard about Bitcoin really [24:33] early on in 2011 through this guy called Brock Pierce, it seems like. Brock is like a character [24:39] that is in the book and got cut from the movie. Sorry, Brock. But great character. So he hears [24:45] about it super early. Give me the year, like 2011. So only two years after it came into existence. [24:51] So the number of people that were aware of Bitcoin at that point had to be tiny, hundreds of thousands [24:56] of people, maybe, maybe a few million. Jeffrey Epstein was into Bitcoin before 90% of the people [25:03] who are now supporters of it even knew it existed. I will stand by that fact like forever. So you just [25:08] have to kind of like accept that. Not only did he find it, he said the idea is brilliant. Not only that, [25:13] he actively like supported the industry. So at one point in 2015, there's this group of developers [25:20] that maintain Bitcoin's operating system. It's called Bitcoin Core Development. And there are [25:25] people behind Bitcoin. Like that's one of the myths that like there isn't anyone. No, it's software. [25:29] People have to make sure it works. So there's this group of programmers. There's this division within [25:33] Bitcoin. There's factions arguing with each other. And these guys weren't getting paid. So Epstein [25:40] funded the developers, the people running the operating system, secretly through the MIT Media Lab, [25:46] which is its own amazing story of criminal activity effectively. The MIT Media Lab? Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. [25:56] Oh, yeah. There's a big article on this in 2019 in the New Yorker. And then with the most recent [26:02] emails, we have confirmation that yes, Epstein paid secretly for these. By the way, in 2008, [26:09] he had pled guilty to solicitation of an underage person. Yes. [26:14] So he was a registered sex offender. Correct. Right. Before he ever heard about Bitcoin, [26:17] before he made these investments, they knew he was a sex offender, obviously. And then he also [26:21] did other things. He invested in Coinbase. He put $3 million into Coinbase. It appears that executives [26:26] knew that the money was coming from Epstein. Because Brock asked Epstein, is it okay if everybody [26:31] tell him who you are? He invested in this other company. So why? Why would Jeffrey Epstein be into [26:39] crypto? Well, what's your theory? Well, if your core businesses are money laundering [26:44] and human sex trafficking, dark money that's hard to trace would be pretty handy. [26:50] You know, and the crypto advocates want to say, they'll use this argument like, [26:55] well, people use dollars for crime. Yeah. So let's make the crypto follow the same rule as the US [27:02] dollar then. Let's regulate these crypto exchanges as banks and see if they can pass muster. Right. [27:08] They can't. And they don't want to. They would be terrified of that because they can't do it. [27:11] So our banking system has rules. The two most important ones are KYC and AML. Know your customer [27:20] and anti money laundering. The banks, when you get an account, you have to fill out all this paperwork [27:25] and they really need to know who it is that they're loaning the money to or facilitating opening the [27:30] account for. Criminals don't like that, right? They don't really want to put their name and their [27:36] address and like all their personal information on this database that the government is going to have [27:40] some. So the advocates will say, yeah, it's about, you know, freedom and censorship resistance. [27:46] And I'm like, it's a lot of criminal activity. How is Bitcoin both a fake asset that has no [27:51] fundamental value, but it's also an evil asset that Al Qaeda and evil terror or drug organizations use [27:59] to get paid? So does it have an inherent value or not? Yeah. It's value is crime. Yeah. The value is [28:05] sort of speculation, I guess you could say, but you can gamble on anything. But isn't that a use case? [28:10] It is. Like, hey, send me the... It is. And we have to ask ourselves as a society, [28:15] is that what we want? Like, do we want... I know the regulated system sucks. I get it. And we can talk [28:19] about ways to fix that and I'm all for it. But like if 90% of the... So there's a gambling element, [28:29] which is just like retail traders like buying and selling it. Yes. Not necessarily the worst thing in [28:33] the world, although maybe it should be marketed more explicitly as gambling and not push dudes [28:37] all the frickin' time. You know, you watch sports these days and now it's not crypto companies as [28:42] much and it's like... Now it's gambling. It's all gambling. Sports gambling. [28:44] And prediction markets, which are a similar thing. But we should ask, like, if outside of the gambling, [28:52] it's 90% crime and 10% positive social purpose and that 10% might be generous, should it exist? Is this [28:59] a good thing for the world? What are NFTs and what's the dumbest one you've seen? Oh, man. I don't know. [29:04] The dumbest one? The dumbest one. That seems hard. I mean, up there was Bored Ape. That was pretty... [29:07] Bored Ape was kind of the dumbest in the sense that it was like, that was what people hated the most [29:11] for, right? Yes. It was one of the most. And they had these like hilarious videos of like, [29:16] they threw like... They tried to throw like concerts and stuff. So NFT is basically like nothing. It's [29:21] like a non-fungible token. Yeah. But what does that get lost in that? Nothing. It's a link to a receipt for [29:27] a JPEG. It's like, oh, hey, I... Because like, how do you own... It's gotta be more. It's gotta be more than that. [29:32] Really? I promise you. Promise you. That's why... What are they worth now? Nothing. I don't want [29:36] to look into it. Literally nothing. Like, I don't know. Like, but it for real is just a link to a [29:41] receipt for a JPEG. I mean, I'm exaggerating. It could be a link to a receipt for anything. [29:46] But like, how do you create scarcity in a world of digital assets? And you kind of can't. I mean, [29:53] to some degree, like someone bought an NFT, I'll just like, you know, click, screen share that and [29:59] just like post that on my account instead. You know what I mean? Like, and maybe they could sue [30:03] me, I guess, possibly, but like... But isn't like a legitimate Ticketmaster.com ticket? That's a [30:07] non-fungible token, right? You can't... You have to transfer it. If you're doing it legit, [30:12] you have to transfer it from person to person. It has and retains its value. Well, it's an actual [30:17] thing because you're going to see a concert. You're getting something out of it. Whereas an NFT is like, [30:21] you're buying shitty art, I guess, for a lot of money, like really shitty art. [30:24] I would say Bored Apes is pretty bad. There was a celebrity one, Reese Witherspoon did [30:30] Women of NFTs. And I was like, it was a similar feeling of like, Reese, don't. Wow. [30:35] Oh, man. And I know, I know that there don't... I know they were just told by their reps is an easy [30:40] way to make money. But you do have a responsibility because who are you ripping off? You're ripping off [30:44] your fans, man. Well, let me push back. Do it. Because I'm a Reese Witherspoon stan. [30:51] I love her. I fuck with Reese. Sweet. Well, let me ask you this. Ben McKenzie, [30:55] why all this pearl clutching about cryptocurrency being a speculative asset that is extremely [31:01] volatile, that's unregulated? Why don't you keep that same energy for DraftKings, prize picks, [31:09] all sorts of sports gambling that's gone amok that's now legal, subpar lays within quarters? [31:14] Yep. [31:16] Why don't you share that same anger and vitriol and concern with that? [31:20] Hassan, I'm one man. I'm one former teen idol, like putting up my hand saying, [31:25] this is bullshit. This is stupid. What do you think? I just like have all the time [31:28] in the world. I'm going to go off. I need you to signal chat Freddie Prince, [31:31] Jr. and you guys need to get after it. But what's the difference? Why? What I'm trying to [31:36] Oh, I'm equally. No, sorry. What I'm basically saying is like, [31:42] this is happening in many different domains. So why the anger here? [31:46] I would say they're very similar in many ways, but the difference with crypto is you can commit crimes. [31:51] Like you can get paid for your criminal activity via crypto in a way that you can't do [31:55] because of sports gambling. But they do all share a similar trait, which is that, [32:01] you know, at best, these are zero sum games. At best, you're like playing poker, [32:04] you know, via a website. But, you know, if and could you win in Vegas? Sure. But if you play long [32:12] enough, you're losing because how else do they keep the lights on in the casino? Right. And by the way, [32:18] as the game's going around, there's the house is taking the rake. There's a little bit of money to [32:22] play the game. Cryptos like Vegas without the drinks, the dinner or the show. And it's [32:29] unregulated or under regulated. So you're not even playing a fair game with these gambling things. [32:35] I just wish they weren't. I wish there can be should be laws about the marketing of it. [32:39] Like it shouldn't they shouldn't just be allowed to be every single that the leagues are now in on [32:44] it. Right now they have official gambling apps. So like gambling is bad. This is one thing that I've [32:49] changed. Ben McKenzie hot take. Well, I was much more like, no, I'm in agreement. [32:53] I've well, like I so I played poker when I was in my 20s. I loved it with my but I didn't play on [32:57] online with Dave, but I was like, you know, I had a I had a little poker table. I loved it. It's [33:02] fun. Is that a social value too? Right. Okay. [33:04] A few beers like, you know, talk some shit and gamble. [33:07] So you're on the OC and you have this kind of gambling den at your apartment. [33:10] Yeah. Sick. [33:11] And yeah, it was fun. I mean, in your 20s in LA, like what could be better? But, [33:16] you know, I did a bunch of research on gambling and interviewed a bunch of people. And, [33:19] you know, crypto addiction is gambling addiction. And it's kind of like gambling [33:24] on steroids because you can bet literally at any point, right? The markets are open 24 seven. [33:31] You just have to have access for your phone. It's marketed to dudes as a, you know, as a way of [33:37] making money. And guys are young guys are particularly susceptible to it. And it can ruin not just their [33:45] lives, but the lives of their families too. I mean, you can gamble like the stats on gambling are insane. [33:51] I don't remember them, but it's an enormous amount of the money that the gambling industry makes, [33:56] the online and others is made from a very small percentage of people who are, you know, in crypto, [34:04] they're called degens, degenerate gamblers. But like those people losing so much money and hiding it [34:11] from their families often because of the shame, it can destroy entire families. In the book, I interviewed [34:16] this guy who's a son of a father of a pastor who got sucked into a crypto scam and just kept doubling [34:22] down and doubling down and doubling down because he was probably too deep in and he ended up taking [34:28] his own life. And, you know, at a minimum, the gambling and the prediction markets need a lot of [34:35] rules that they don't have. Do you think there's any amount of evidence that you're talking about? [34:40] You've made two very compelling points. You're like, look, Donald Trump is a convicted criminal. [34:46] Yeah. Outright fraudster. That's a data point. Jeffrey Epstein. We've clearly seen through the [34:53] Epstein files obviously was using cryptocurrency and money for money laundering and sex trafficking. [35:00] Do you think there's anything in these huge cases that perhaps gets people to go, [35:06] all right, I'm opting out? This is too shady. I don't know. I mean, my my mission at this point is [35:12] is to inform the 80 plus percent of the country that hasn't invested in crypto as best I can and [35:19] arm them with facts so that when people come at them, which they inevitably do, everyone has had [35:23] someone usually do try to convince you of buying crypto. They have the facts so they're not sucked [35:29] into it. I would love to convince people who are already into it that they should rethink their [35:35] positions. But my experience has been that that is often not successful if they're really hardcore. [35:40] There's a bunch of people who don't really care about it, who are just kind of like gambling on [35:45] it. And I think we'll accept some of these points, many of these points. But my mission is not to try [35:51] to preach to the faithful. It's a little bit like the hardcore. It's a little like a cult, [35:55] you know what I mean? And there's a great paper, a sociological paper called When Prophecy Fails. [36:02] I think it's from like the 50s. And it's like, what happens to cults when the thing that they [36:06] predicted would happen doesn't happen, right? The world's going to end in 2020 and it doesn't. [36:10] Do they like abandon the cult leader and renounce their faith? No, they believe more. [36:15] Oh, they double down. They double down. And that's what I experienced while interviewing [36:18] the victims of Celsius is like, do you still believe in cryptocurrency? They all said yes. [36:23] The more you invested and lost, the more you believe. In the documentary in 2022, [36:27] you go to the Bitcoin conference, you head to Miami. Right. [36:30] If you've been to Reddit.com backslash r backslash WallStreetBets. Yeah. [36:33] Poppin. Poppin. How big is this community? [36:37] Is it a real community? Give me a sense of scale. I mean, I hate to be so negative here, [36:45] but I think you have to be very suspicious of communities that only exist online, right? [36:50] I mean, I think that they do have these shows that they come together for the conventions. [36:53] They're kind of like trade shows. Everyone's got their company booth and they're trying to sell you [36:57] on this or that and the other. Right. [36:58] There is like, I mean, it's a trade show. So guys are just getting fucked up and partying and [37:03] like, you know, it's that kind of a thing. So there is like some sense of community to some degree, [37:08] but essentially they all just want to make money off of the enterprise. So online, the ability to lie [37:17] is just, you know, it's so easy, right? You're not using your real name, right? Most of these accounts [37:23] don't use their real name. You know, they're, they're terrified of being doxxed, which is hilarious [37:27] because like if you're offering people financial advice, like I'm pretty sure we should know who the [37:30] fuck you are. Sure. Um, but I'm Ben McKenzie out here just saying the, I know, I'm sorry. I'm just [37:37] dropping. You really are going hard at people with just Twitter fingers. You're basically saying, [37:42] I need you to be outside. Don't even start on the NFTs. No, I mean, I, I, you asked earlier, [37:47] like, do I feel sympathy? And I do, I do. It's, it's easier to feel sympathy with people you meet in real [37:52] life. Like I know it's cliche at this point, but the internet really is not real life. Like I can't [37:56] express how strongly I feel about that with my crypto stuff. I've had so few really negative [38:02] conversations in person with people, like even interviews that were like, um, somewhat, uh, [38:08] hostile. Hostile. Yeah. Sandbakeman-Fried. Like we didn't yell and scream at each other. [38:12] So in the documentary, can we talk about that? Please. You were able to score an interview with [38:16] Sandbakeman-Fried, but he knew you were doing a documentary that's skeptical of cryptocurrency. [38:22] Yes. What? We had sold the book and it said it was about crypto and fraud. It was like in our [38:30] Twitter byline. Okay. And he was like, yeah, sure. I'll be interviewed. So he doesn't interview with [38:34] you for an hour alone with you. Yeah. Why? So I couldn't figure that out. I couldn't figure that [38:40] out. He's a fan of the OC. That's probably it. Um, probably more of a Seth guy than a Ryan guy, [38:45] but you know, do what you can. Okay. Um, I know his assistant was a big fan of the OC. [38:50] I talk about that in the book. Cause like he only had one handler. He's like this supposed [38:53] a billionaire with only like one person, which is very weird. Um, young woman, very nice. And, [38:58] uh, the first thing she said to me when I met her, like before I even met Sam was like, [39:02] oh my God, I'm such a big fan of the OC. And I was like, this is all going to work out perfectly. [39:07] So I said, I think that was your secret superpower in the documentary and in the book. [39:11] Totally. People hold you small. It's such an advantage to be underestimated. [39:17] Series regular on a Fox sitcom from 2003 is your sitcom. [39:21] It's not a sitcom. Sorry. Sorry. One hour drama. [39:23] It was a scripted drama. Scripted one hour drama. [39:25] Not at all a soap opera. Capital D drama. Capital D drama. [39:28] Uh, prestige drama. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, [39:31] to be underestimated, to be thought of as like some lightweight is such a gift. [39:35] It's such a gift. So I think, so I didn't know why Sam. [39:38] I want to give you your flowers nominated for 16 choice awards. [39:41] I am. I am. I never won. I am the Susan Lucci of the teen choice awards. [39:44] I'm sorry. I'm the Susan Lucci of the teen choice awards. [39:48] I'm sorry. I'm just, I'm sorry that you're that. [39:51] Oh, you're just sorry. Yeah. [39:52] Okay. I thought you couldn't understand what I meant. [39:53] Yeah. No, no, no. You're just sorry. [39:54] Yeah. Well, for both the fact that you didn't win. [39:57] And then also, I don't know who Susan Lucci is. [39:59] Kolkata Chai has brand new tea bags. It is so easy. [40:02] I literally don't have to think about it. [40:04] Hot water, tea bag, mug, donezo. [40:06] Okay. But what do I think about now? [40:09] But real talk, what is a microwave actually? [40:14] It hums, it dings, it spins. [40:16] But what is making the food hot? [40:18] Hello. [40:21] Screw you, countertop Chernobyl. [40:23] Hard pass. [40:24] Okay. Just enjoy this moment for one second without... [40:27] Ooh, hello, Fridge. [40:29] Oh, my chilly little frenemy. [40:31] I tolerate you, but I do not trust you. [40:34] Do you remove heat or do you add coal? [40:37] Ew. I'm getting cold just thinking about it. [40:39] You know what? I should make some chai to warm up. [40:41] Ah, stupid Hassan, you're already making chai. [40:44] But I forgot about it because these tea bags are literally doing all the work. [40:48] Wait, is it a tea bag or a chai bag or a chai tea? [40:51] Nope. No, no, no. [40:53] Not going there. [40:53] Just add hot water, milk, and sweetener of your choice. [40:56] Honestly, that's the best chai in the game. [40:58] I should go tell someone. [41:01] So, SBF. [41:04] You scored this interview. [41:05] So, in the film, I interviewed this expert on fraud. [41:08] Yeah, he wrote a great book, Lying for Money. [41:12] And he talks about the psychology of fraudsters, which I find fascinating, [41:16] which is fraudsters are not like other criminals. [41:18] Like, they're not deviant members of society that commit violent crimes usually. [41:23] They think of themselves as legitimate businessmen. [41:26] They have to because to acknowledge to themselves that they're actually running a fraud, [41:32] like most people aren't actual sociopaths who are like okay with that. [41:35] So instead, they rationalize and justify their behavior. [41:38] And Sam's a great example. [41:39] Sam still, while in prison, having been convicted of all the crimes he was charged with in like [41:45] four hours by a jury, still thinks he's innocent. [41:48] I guarantee you he thinks he's still posting about it on Twitter. [41:50] He's like, we weren't actually insolvent. [41:52] You're like, well, we were. [41:54] They have to believe in that. [41:56] Did you feel that when you were with him? [41:57] You were like, this guy's an absolute fraud. [42:00] I felt he could not answer any of my questions satisfactorily. [42:05] Like, I had listened to interviews. [42:06] I'd done my preparation. [42:07] I knew kind of effectively what he was going to say or the arguments he was going to make. [42:12] I had answers for all of them. [42:13] And some of these questions are very simple. [42:16] What does crypto do? [42:17] Give me one thing that it does. [42:18] And what did he say? [42:20] He said remittances. [42:21] He said it could be used to send money overseas. [42:24] I had just come from El Salvador, which the economy is built off remittances. [42:28] 25% of the GDP is people of Salvadoran descent sending money home. [42:35] So if it were to work, they illegalized Bitcoin, made it a form of legal tender. [42:38] If it was going to work, people could have used the government system instead of- [42:43] As a way to transfer- [42:44] Moneygram or whatever. [42:45] Yeah, and save the fee. [42:46] Nobody used it. [42:47] Nobody used it. [42:48] Less than 2%. [42:49] It's now less than 1%. [42:50] Like effectively, nobody used it. [42:52] Because they don't have money to gamble with. [42:56] They're getting $300 or $400 a month in cash. [42:59] If they lose the money, they'd rather pay the percent and actually get the money to [43:02] the person that they love. [43:04] So the argument was bullshit. [43:05] I had just come from it. [43:06] The only country in the world trying to use Bitcoin as money. [43:08] The country built on remittances, and it didn't work. [43:11] And I said, bullshit. [43:13] And he didn't have a response to that really. [43:15] What ended up making the documentary? [43:17] What was an interesting thing that did not make the documentary? [43:20] Because it's a small part of the doc. [43:21] Yeah, totally. [43:21] Oh, man. [43:22] You got to sit down with SPF for an hour. [43:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [43:26] There's some funny bits in him. [43:27] There's one point where- [43:29] I think we sort of captured it on the doc, [43:30] but I bought that mug off Etsy that's like fraud investigator. [43:34] Yeah. [43:35] And totally to fuck with him. [43:37] And I'm super proud of that purchase. [43:40] That's like $12 I ever spent. [43:41] Sure. [43:41] And he sits down with me, signs the paperwork to appear. [43:46] And we're in a Midtown hotel room that I rented out for it. [43:49] And there's a loud noise out in the hallway. [43:53] And so I go out to deal with that. [43:55] And he's just like, it's like a quadruple take, I think. [44:00] It's like at least a triple where he sees the mug and is like, I can't. [44:05] Like, what have I signed up for? [44:06] Right. [44:06] What's fascinating is he then proceeded to talk to me for a whole hour. [44:09] Yes. [44:10] Like he wasn't like, I could actually just leave right now. [44:12] Do you think he believed he was a true evangelist? [44:15] Meaning- Yes. [44:17] He's sitting there in his swim trunks looking like he was electrocuted. [44:21] And he goes, I can convince Ben McKenzie. [44:24] Yeah. [44:24] To actually understand what Bitcoin is. [44:27] My guess is he felt he had nothing to hide. [44:30] I mean, this guy was on top of the world. [44:32] You know, he was on the cover of magazines. [44:35] The reporter that was in there before I showed up. [44:38] I don't know if they were paying for the space, but I was. [44:40] But anyway, the guy there was doing the profile on Sam that would lead to a cover on a [44:45] Fortune magazine. [44:46] The next Warren Buffett question mark. [44:48] Sam was on top of the world. [44:50] Crypto was crashing, but he was going to bail it out. [44:52] He was called the JP Morgan of crypto. [44:53] He was going to bail out all the failing crypto companies and like own the entire thing. [44:57] He was supposedly one of the hundred richest people in the world. [45:00] He's like 29 years old, 30 years old. [45:02] Did you feel in that moment as Ben McKenzie, were you like, am I the idiot? [45:07] No. [45:07] You see him getting all that positive press coverage. [45:10] Right. [45:10] He's friends with some of the most esteemed members of the Democratic Party, [45:16] all these celebrities. [45:19] Did you feel you're like, and maybe I don't get it. [45:23] I mean, I definitely felt that at some points or I'm constantly checking myself, [45:29] you know, am I describing this correctly? [45:31] Am I giving enough credit to the other side? [45:32] Am I sort of being, I really do try to like be as honest as I can with myself. [45:36] Yeah. [45:36] Well, at the same time, given my experience and how it's been affirmed countless times at this [45:42] point that this thing is bad, I don't pull any punches because like the only way I'm going to [45:46] fight this supposedly trillion dollar industry is by getting to people like through your podcast or [45:53] whatever. [45:53] It's like getting to the regular people. [45:54] So I have to be pretty outspoken and blunt when I can. [45:57] But when I sat in the room with Sam, I did not, there was no moment of I'm the fool. [46:04] It was the title of the chapter that has a Sam interview is the emperor is butt ass naked. [46:11] I was the kid looking at this naked emperor going, he doesn't have any clothes on. [46:16] What's going on here? [46:17] I mean, did he do the interview barefoot? [46:18] No, he had his sneakers on. [46:20] Oh, okay. [46:20] He did a lot of barefoot. [46:21] He was the cargo shorts t-shirt. [46:22] Yeah. [46:23] Like electrocuted hair. [46:24] Yeah. [46:24] Yeah. [46:24] Okay. [46:25] Did you believe in the interview that he was going to go to prison? [46:28] No, I couldn't quite understand. [46:30] I couldn't. [46:32] Yes. [46:32] That's one way he kind of got over me. [46:34] I gave him more credit than in retrospect I should have because I assumed so Sam owned an [46:40] exchange and a trading company. [46:41] Right. [46:42] And which would never be allowed in a regulated market because like you're trading on your own [46:46] exchange, they're literally like in the same office in the Bahamas. [46:48] Like his ex-girl, ex-girlfriend runs the trading company. [46:52] So I figured he was making a ton of money because if you're trading on your own exchange, [46:55] you don't have to be that good a trader to like trader to, to make a ton of money. [47:00] But what actually happened that came out in court cases, they were terrible at trading. [47:04] They had lost so much money. [47:06] It was called Alameda Research. [47:10] They were called, they lost so much money that they had to steal the money from their [47:15] customers in order to bail themselves out. [47:17] Do you think that the dream of Bitcoin will ever be possible? [47:23] Meaning a trusted peer to peer digital ledger that's on the blockchain, almost like Wikipedia [47:33] for money. [47:33] Hey, we see every transaction that's going in and out. [47:36] And this is the new future of the way people get money and send people money. [47:43] And it becomes an actual currency that people use. [47:45] That in that way, no, no. [47:47] I mean, it can't work that way. [47:49] Bitcoin can only do five to seven transactions a second. [47:52] So Sam admitted this when I interviewed him. [47:55] I said, you know, how is this going to work? [47:58] You know, Visa can do 24,000. [47:59] You can't do a global monetary system on five to seven transactions a second. [48:05] And he was like, yeah, that's a problem. [48:07] You know, we'll fix it. [48:08] But, you know, it's not going to be Bitcoin. [48:09] It's going to be. [48:10] And he referred me to another coin that he owned a lot of trying to sell me on that. [48:14] Um, you know, he whispered that to you. [48:16] He's like, he wasn't whispering. [48:17] He was. [48:18] Oh, he told. [48:18] He was telling me now. [48:19] I rode my Solana. [48:20] I was supposed to buy Solana, which has the unfortunate. [48:23] Solana is a coin that. [48:24] Um, you know, I had a lot of homies that went. [48:25] And so yeah, it has the unfortunate [48:28] characteristic of shutting down. [48:30] And because it just sometimes doesn't work at all, [48:32] which, you know, if you're using a global monetary system, [48:34] probably not the best thing. [48:35] Not great. [48:36] How do you wrap your head around the idea that you're looking at all the big banks [48:41] are now having crypto divisions? [48:43] JP Morgan, Blackstone, Blackrock, Morgan Stanley. [48:48] I mean, clearly they have huge buildings here in New York City. [48:51] They're doing big money stuff. [48:53] Yeah. [48:53] Explain that to me. [48:55] Clearly they wouldn't just throw their money away. [48:57] I mean, these big private equity firms, [48:59] they're getting into the Blackstones, the Blackrocks. [49:01] They're getting into the housing market, [49:03] nursing homes, real homes. [49:05] Mm-hmm. [49:06] They clearly wouldn't get into fake money. [49:08] Right, right, right, right. [49:09] Not if they can make money on it. [49:10] Um, the democratized, decentralized future of money brought to you by Blackrock. [49:15] Um, yeah. [49:17] Wall Street is really good at making money by facilitating trades [49:20] without taking a position one way or the other. [49:22] So the ETFs are a perfect example. [49:24] The biggest one is issued by Blackrock. [49:26] They, you buy the share of the thing called, [49:29] called the Blackrock ETF or whatever. [49:32] They go to Coinbase and they say, [49:33] Hey, we've got this many, this amount of money, [49:35] this many shares, you know, give us the Bitcoin. [49:37] You just actually, they actually hold the Bitcoin, I believe. [49:40] And then when people sell the shares, then they sell the Bitcoin. [49:43] So Blackrock is making, and it's taking a percentage, [49:45] it's taking a fee on that, facilitating that transaction. [49:48] The fee might be really small. [49:50] It might be a quarter of a percent or something, [49:51] but it's on billions of dollars. [49:53] So, you know, they're making a fortune. [49:55] And all they're doing is helping you trade. [49:57] I don't give a shit if the price goes up or down. [49:59] I mean, they like the price to keep going, [50:01] because that would make more people do it. [50:02] But like at the end of the day, they're not holding the bag, you are. [50:05] And, you know, good luck. [50:07] Like at some point, [50:09] it's just so hard to point to exchanges that haven't collapsed. [50:12] So, you know, I don't wish this on the future, [50:15] but like it's just if history is any precedent, like, [50:18] you know, the exchanges will at some point shut down effectively, [50:23] because there aren't enough buyers when the price crashes. [50:26] Well, listen, man, I encourage everybody to read the book. [50:28] It's very funny. [50:29] Watch the movie. [50:30] He's very funny in it. [50:31] Ladies and gentlemen, Ben McKenzie. [50:33] Thank you so much.