How Ben & Jerry’s Was Silenced on Gaza - with Ben Cohen

[0:00] Ben & Jerry's was created by Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield in 1978. [0:04] It is one of the world's only fully goaded brands. [0:07] We sure do make some of the best ice cream you ever tasted. [0:09] Not only is their ice cream incredible, [0:11] they have been extremely supportive of progressive causes [0:14] like marriage equality, trans rights, indigenous rights, [0:17] Palestinian rights, reparations, [0:18] dismantling the prison industrial complex, [0:20] and fuck it, dismantling white supremacy while we're at it. [0:23] They literally embed these messages right into their products. [0:27] How is this possible? [0:28] I mean, I thought corporations and morality didn't mix. [0:31] Did Ben & Jerry's hack capitalism with love? [0:34] Well, that might depend on what happens next, [0:36] because right now Ben & Jerry's corporate parent Magnum [0:39] is trying to silence them. [0:40] So I'm just gonna sum up what happened real quick. [0:43] So Ben & Jerry's were sold to Unilever in 2000, [0:45] and then their agreement basically set up a firewall [0:47] between Unilever and the Ben & Jerry's board [0:49] so they could take whatever political position they wanted. [0:51] But that changed starting in 2021 when Ben & Jerry's announced [0:54] that it would end sales in the occupied West Bank. [0:57] Unilever fought them on this and then fought even harder in 2024 [1:01] as Ben & Jerry's tried to speak out about the genocide unfolding in Gaza. [1:05] They even blocked a pro-Palestinian flavor Ben & Jerry's wanted to create. [1:09] So after some legal clashes, Unilever spun off its ice cream business [1:12] into the Magnum ice cream company, but the underlying conflict didn't change. [1:17] So Ben & Jerry's asked Magnum, [1:19] please let us become an independently owned company, [1:22] so they could be free to say whatever they wanted. [1:25] And Magnum was like, no! [1:26] So Jerry Greenfield resigned in protest, [1:29] and Ben Cohen has taken the fight public with the free Ben & Jerry's campaign [1:34] and petition at freebenandjerrys.com. [1:36] So that's the table stakes. [1:38] And because of that, I sat down with Ben to talk about this whole drama. [1:41] But my favorite part of this interview is the second half, [1:44] where we talk about a passion we both share. [1:46] Dunking on the military-industrial complex. [1:48] Oh yeah! [1:49] We also talked about what he thinks about renaming [1:50] the Department of Defense to the Department of War. [1:53] Finally, something that Trump has said that's honest. [1:56] His arrest for protesting Gaza at a Senate hearing. [1:59] My country is giving weapons to Israel as a gift to kill all these people in Gaza. [2:08] And I asked him, as one of the OG Bernard brothers, [2:12] if he thinks Bernie could have gone all the way in 2016. [2:15] Absolutely. I have no doubt in my mind. [2:18] And to be clear, you do not get free ice cream when you go to freebenandjerrys.com. [2:22] I went, and I'm very mad that I didn't get any. [2:24] But Ben did bring free ice cream to this interview and lots of Oreos, [2:26] which will make sense very soon. [2:28] Harvey Weinstein is complaining about Rikers. [2:40] That's right. [2:40] The super villain of the Me Too movement is upset [2:43] because he got punched in the face by a fellow inmate. [2:45] And Harvey is correct. [2:47] Hitting is wrong, even in prison. [2:49] It is awful to be touched without consent. [2:52] Anyways, I read about this story on Ground News, which is today's sponsor. [2:55] And HMDK's favorite independent news platform, Ground News, [2:58] shows a breakdown of publications reporting on a story [3:01] in which way they lean politically, whether it's right, left, or center. [3:05] Now, it's not about eliminating bias. [3:07] We all have biases. [3:08] But Ground News helps you be a more conscientious consumer [3:12] of the pageant of pain unfolding around us. [3:15] Now, you may think, yeah, duh, CNN is slightly left, Fox is right. [3:19] Why do I need this? [3:20] Well, not everything is about America, folks. [3:22] Ground News sources articles from all over the world. [3:25] For example, there are currently 97 articles talking about Weinstein and Rikers, [3:30] and a lot of the publications are international. [3:32] Now, I know the Globo in Brazil leans right, and Le Monde in France leans left, [3:37] and I'm keeping that in mind when I read their coverage. [3:39] So go to groundnews.com to subscribe and get 40% off the Unlimited Access Vantage plan, [3:44] which breaks down to just five bucks a month with my discount. [3:48] Stay aware and go to groundnews.com today. [3:52] MAGA has this famous tagline that's been very popular over the past few years. [3:57] You go woke, you go broke. [3:59] Anytime a Disney movie comes out that flops, they go, you go woke, you go broke. [4:04] Are you broke? [4:05] Not near as I can tell. [4:07] When we talk about corporate values, what does that mean? [4:10] Well, I mean, in terms of values, you know, the values I think about [4:15] happen to coincide a lot with what Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount. [4:22] You know, care for people that are oppressed, welcome the stranger, [4:26] feed the hungry, feed the poor, love thy neighbor. [4:31] I mean, yeah, I'm into that. [4:36] Seems good. [4:37] I mean, and I think what's happened is that business has said, well, you know, that's that, [4:43] you know, maybe that's for, maybe that's when you're in church. [4:47] But, you know, we can't have those values in business. [4:50] If we were going to have those values in business, we wouldn't be able to stay in business. [4:56] We'd go broke. [4:57] And it's just not freaking true. [5:00] It's a lie. [5:01] I mean, and Ben and Jerry's proved it. [5:03] I mean, Ben and Jerry's has had these humanistic, caring values. [5:08] I mean, the same values that, you know, that we want in anybody. [5:15] Just you're talking about basic virtue. [5:17] That's all I'm talking about. [5:19] Right. [5:19] And the reality is that business is the most powerful force in our society. [5:26] And if business wanted to, it could have those values and it would be a really beautiful society. [5:34] What do you say to people that push back on this philosophical notion that the very idea of [5:40] capitalism, of companies that have to deliver returns quarter to quarter for investors, [5:48] just fundamentally bumps up against the virtues of integrity, honesty, empathy, [5:56] care for the weak, the impoverished, the poor? [5:59] What do you say to those people that say these are just oil and water? [6:03] This is a paradox that you cannot resolve. [6:06] We've we've heard that story. [6:09] It's it's a lie. [6:10] I mean, I understand that, you know, maybe maybe it's easier to run a business where all you care [6:19] about is the financial bottom line, how much money is left over at the end of the month or the year. [6:25] But in terms of meaning and in terms of joy, in terms of doing that business, if you factor in [6:37] social concerns into your day to day business activities, it's a much more meaningful, joyful [6:45] experience is very motivating to employees and it's very motivating to customers. [6:52] I mean, Ben and Jerry's, you know, taking these stands for for justice, uh, ends up creating [7:02] this simpatico relationship with our customers. [7:07] That's the strongest bond that that a company could ever make with their customers. [7:12] I mean, usually people are buying products from corporations in spite of the values of the [7:20] corporation. [7:21] I mean, they're they're kind of buying it because they need it, but they're kind of holding their [7:25] nose because, you know, they don't really want to be supporting that that corporation that cares [7:29] only about one thing. And when they have a chance to buy a product from a corporation whose values [7:37] they agree with, man, they are overjoyed and they just want to keep on buying that stuff. [7:43] There was this lightning rod 2020 moment in the wake of George Floyd's murder. [7:48] It was this very powerful moment. And in the years since that, there's been this huge pushback, [7:55] the rollback of DEI again, this go woke, go broke kind of talking point agenda in the six years since [8:04] that moment. Have you now become more cynical to a lot of the language that some of these companies [8:10] have used? Because it certainly has made me more cynical. [8:13] Well, I tell you, I was, you know, I mean, of course, the death of the murder of George Floyd was [8:24] a horrible and saddening thing. But when when all those corporations started making these statements [8:33] soon after that, that we're going to hire more nonwhite people, we're going to banks were saying, [8:41] we're going to make sure we loan to more nonwhite people. We're going to make sure that our suppliers [8:47] are not just white people. And they came up with, you know, actual numbers, objective numbers that [8:55] you could hit. We're committing so much money to this. We're going to have so much of a percentage [9:00] of our workforce diverse. I was really kind of overjoyed. I was feeling like, wow, they've, [9:10] corporations have finally gotten a conscience. They've, they've finally are, are, have decided to [9:19] use their power to, to improve the way, uh, life is conducted here. And, and to, you know, [9:27] especially for people that have been discriminated against and, and oppressed and, and, you know, [9:35] and then, uh, you know, Trump comes into power and he says DEI bed and all these guys just jettison [9:45] all those programs. Uh, has that type of political polarization made having a strong social stance [9:53] harder because now it's, everything's a political issue. We got a new M and M. Well, who'd the M and M [10:00] vote for? It's like, we're recasting Cinderella. All right. Well, which party is Cinderella? And, [10:07] you know, do you find it to be difficult, difficult to navigate? You have certainly ran a successful [10:14] business through every version of partisanship, blue or red. Is this particular moment more polarized [10:23] than ever? Uh, or has it always been that way? I, I don't, I mean, I, I think that the country [10:31] is probably more polarized than ever. Uh, you know, a big reason being that, uh, you know, every other [10:41] president has sought to bring the country together and the current president is seeking to divide it. [10:49] So, you know, it's a rather influential office and, and I think he's being quite successful in, [10:57] in dividing the country, but in terms of Ben and Jerry's being able to be Ben and Jerry's and Ben [11:04] and Jerry's values, I mean, there's no doubt that, uh, the Magnum corporation, uh, I, I think is [11:14] kind of falling in line with, uh, with, with what Trump wants. [11:18] So back in 2000, Ben and Jerry's was bought by Unilever and you did something unprecedented. [11:26] You created a legal framework that essentially it guaranteed you and your independent board of [11:33] directors to take whatever political stance you wanted. Is that true? [11:40] Yes. Um, how'd you do that? [11:43] Well, so what happened was that Ben and Jerry's was a publicly held corporation at the time. [11:49] Yeah. Um, Unilever wanted to buy it. Uh, Jerry and I did not want it sold, but we didn't own [11:59] controlling shares. And so against our wishes and despite, you know, our efforts to keep it independent, [12:06] the company, Unilever wanted to buy it. And, and there were other companies that, that also wanted [12:13] to buy it. And Jerry and I were incredibly resistant. So Unilever says, well, why are you [12:20] resistant? And we said, well, because we think that if the company is purchased by, you know, [12:27] another company that doesn't have the same social values that our social mission is going to get [12:33] destroyed. And they said, well, let's just write it into the acquisition agreement that the social [12:40] mission will live on. And, you know, we're trying to figure out, well, how do you write that in? [12:45] Because the social mission needs to evolve as, as the country evolves, as the situation evolves. [12:53] And the way that we ended up doing it was to form this independent board of directors for Ben and [13:01] juries that has legal authority in perpetuity over the social mission, over product specifications, [13:12] over the quality of our ice cream, the use of the trademark, how the company is, is marketed. [13:18] So it sounds like, hey, as long as the ice cream stays good, the money keeps coming in, [13:23] you can hold whatever position you want. And, and, and Ben, I got to give it to you, man. You went hard [13:28] in the paint for decades, standing 10 toes down on a lot of issues. Over the years, Ben and Jerry's [13:35] supported Black Lives Matter, refugee rights, marriage equality, criminal justice reform, [13:40] voting rights. But then you crossed the line. You said the P word. [13:47] The Palestine word? [13:48] You said it. [13:49] Yeah. [13:50] And your corporate overlords were not too happy about that. [13:56] Uh, well, what happened? [13:58] Yeah, what happened? [13:59] You know, the, the board was feeling for, you know, years that, uh, having our ice cream sold [14:09] in the occupied Palestinian territories in the West Bank, uh, was, went against the values of the company. [14:18] Uh, you know, essentially supporting the mistreatment of, uh, people who lived in the occupied territories [14:26] and that the occupation itself was illegal. Um, and so, you know, there was a bunch of studies [14:35] and work done on it. There were visits to the area by our people from the company. And eventually [14:42] there was a decision, uh, that was where the board of Ben and Jerry's and the management of Ben and Jerry's [14:50] and Unilever all agreed that Ben and Jerry's would pull its products out of the West Bank. [14:56] And what happened, what I'm told happened is that when we announced that the, the head of Israel [15:04] called the head of Unilever and said, you know, if, if you don't make this right, if you don't get [15:09] those products back here, we're going to kick out all the Unilever businesses. And they had, you know, [15:15] like 20 different brands, 20 different types of products they were selling there. And so Unilever [15:22] Unilever unilaterally went against, uh, the board of directors and sold the rights to Ben and Jerry's [15:31] to an Israeli and so that the ice cream would be available in the West Bank, although only in Hebrew. [15:38] Um, and you know, that was a major, uh, you know, usurpation of the power of the board. [15:47] Uh, and, uh, there was, you know, a bunch of negotiations that proceeded and they broke down [15:54] and, and eventually the board had no choice but to sue Unilever, which is, you know, not your everyday [16:01] thing that a, uh, you know, a subsidiary of a corporation sues the corporation. And so that, [16:09] you know, after that point, uh, Unilever started muzzling Ben and Jerry's on, uh, a whole range of [16:19] issues. And, you know, when we, when we called, tried to call for a ceasefire, uh, when they ended [16:26] up with this war in Gaza, uh, they wouldn't allow us to do that. When we wanted to support, uh, the [16:33] students that were protesting, they wouldn't allow that. When we wanted to support, uh, people's right [16:40] to free speech and, and freedom of the press. You know, there was that woman who wrote, uh, uh, an [16:46] op-ed in, in a college newspaper and she got kicked out of college for that or deported or something. [16:52] We wanted to support her and, and we were prevented from doing that. And that's illegal. [17:00] You know, that the terms of the agreement. Is it true that they stopped you from celebrating [17:07] Black History Month? Well, they, uh, yes, it, it, it is true. There were, there was a post that we [17:18] wanted to put up supporting Black History Month and they would not allow that. And this is the same [17:24] company that I, I was so proud of the statement that they made after the death of George Floyd, which is, [17:32] we must dismantle white supremacy. I mean, I felt like that was the, the, that's the comp, you know, [17:38] so our company made that statement, but I had nothing to do with it. And I was overjoyed because [17:44] it was the company itself that took that position. And, and then, you know, there was this huge change [17:53] and, and Unilever prevented us from putting up this post in support of Black History Month. It was [17:59] pretty strange. But Elmo celebrates Black History Month. Exactly. It's kind of ridiculous. I, I think [18:08] it was Trumpism. I mean, I think what at the time Trump was down on Black History Month, he wouldn't, [18:14] you know, he wouldn't, you know, he, he's trying to get all the information about how the US was [18:21] involved in slavery. Yeah. Trying to get that information out of the museums, out of the, [18:26] out of the college tech, out of the high school textbooks, public school textbooks. [18:32] So that, that's what it was part of. Last year, you were arrested after interrupting [18:38] an RFK junior Senate hearing to protest Israel's Gaza blockade. I'm going to show you the footage. [18:45] Take me through what's going on and why you did it and how you feel. Let's take a look. [18:49] Then, Congress kills poor kids in Gaza by buying bombs and pays for it by kicking [18:59] kids off Medicaid in the US. Keep going down, keep going down the hallway. [19:03] They need to let food into Gaza. They need to let food to starving kids. [19:07] Now that you're not being dragged down the hallway of a government building and zip ties, [19:12] what were you trying to tell the American people? What's going on here? [19:15] Well, what was going on for me was that, you know, I'm sitting home, you know, reading these [19:24] newspaper articles or, you know, whatever you read online, whatever you, however you get your news [19:29] these days about how my country is giving weapons to Israel as a gift that are being used to kill all [19:46] these people in, in Gaza. And, and then, and, you know, I mean, I'm keep on reading about that and [19:53] it's driving me a little crazy and then, well, it's driving me very crazy. And then, uh, I see this [20:00] other article in the newspaper about how there's another, uh, outbreak of, of lead poisoning in, [20:08] you know, I don't remember where it was. Maybe it was Milwaukee. And, you know, lead poisoning [20:17] is an issue that drives me up a wall because it's very preventable. We know what causes it and we know [20:28] how to fix it. And, you know, lead poisoning is, cannot be cured. It's a lifelong thing. A kid, uh, [20:39] gets lead poisoning and their brain is affected for the rest of their lives. And instead of using our money [20:50] to get rid of lead, we end up buying these bombs, uh, uh, to kill more people. And so, you know, [21:00] everybody has their breaking point. And, uh, I saw these things and I said, you know, I want to chain [21:07] myself to the white house fence. And, uh, you know, the people I work with said, well, you can't do that [21:14] anymore. You know, the, the white house fence has been militarized and, uh, you can't even get to [21:20] the white house fence cause they have a fence before it and they have guys with big machine guns [21:25] walking in between. And they said, you know, we think, uh, you, you wanted to do a hunger protest. [21:31] You were going to, I mean, chain yourself to the fence. Yeah. And, uh, and they said, well, [21:37] but we think we can maybe get you into a hearing and, and you can make some kind of statement. And I [21:42] said, you think that's really gonna be effective? And they said, yeah. And I had my doubts and, uh, [21:51] you know, it ended up being kind of one of the more effective things I've, I've ever done. [21:56] So all this activism and the positions you took in regards to Gaza, it obviously did not [22:01] fly too well with Unilever, but eventually Unilever spun off and sold you to another [22:08] corporate daddy called Magnum. Right. How did that happen? [22:12] Well, what they did was they spun off their entire ice cream division. Uh, they, [22:18] they have an ice cream division that, uh, comprises about a hundred brands of ice cream around the [22:24] world, uh, here in the U S it's popsicle, good humor, uh, Klondike, Breyers, Talenti, Yasso, and, [22:34] and Ben and Jerry's. And, uh, Unilever decided that, um, you know, for one reason or another, [22:43] they decided to get rid of their, their whole ice cream operation. I think originally they were trying [22:49] to sell it to another conglomerate or some private equity group, and they weren't able to do that. [22:56] So they, they decided to spin it off into its own separate publicly held corporation. [23:04] So as soon as it gets sold to Magnum, this other conglomerate, Jerry resigns. I mean, you guys, [23:13] you're Jordan and Pippen, baby, you're magic and Kareem. [23:19] Well, not quite. [23:22] Hey, if it was an eating contest, we would. [23:25] Ben, you two, you two were goaded. Don't ever, don't ever hold yourself small, King. [23:31] Okay. All right. [23:31] You two were goaded. So he, he, he steps down. What was that like? Why did Jerry step away? [23:37] What was it specifically about Magnum and the pressure in regards to this issue that [23:41] made it too much for him? Well, I want to be clear that, uh, Jerry and I have not split up. We're still the [23:47] best of friends. And, um, we, we both came to understand that there was no way that the social [23:57] mission of Ben and Jerry's was going to survive under the ownership of, uh, the Magnum corporation. [24:04] And, uh, you know, Jerry decided to resign and protest and I decided to stay on and fight. [24:15] I mean, you kept the fight going and, and you've taken the fight both public and online with the [24:22] website, freebenandjerrys.com. You've been there. [24:26] Yeah. Well, come again, keep on coming. [24:28] Well, well, look, Ben, I have, I have a couple of complaints. [24:32] All right. First of all, [24:33] I went to the website and I thought I was going to get free Ben and Jerry's and I didn't. [24:37] It's a different type of free Ben and Jerry's. [24:39] It is a different type of free. [24:41] So look, I think the cause is important. I think the clickbait is wrong because a lot [24:47] of people are going to go to the website and they're going to think they're going to get [24:48] free Ben and Jerry's. So we got to have another tab or sublink to get free Ben and Jerry's. [24:54] But what is freebenandjerrys.com? What, what, what's the, what's the goal of the website? [24:57] Well, so when Unilever announced, and this was like two years ago, [25:02] that, uh, they wanted to spin off their whole ice cream division, [25:06] Jerry and I went to them and said, Hey, you know, there's been all these conflicts between [25:11] Unilever and, uh, the board of Ben and Jerry's. And why don't you just separate out Ben and Jerry's so [25:19] that it could be sold to socially conscious investors that actually support the mission [25:27] and, uh, you know, and have Ben and Jerry's be able to thrive and have the other businesses [25:34] be able to, to thrive. Um, and Unilever said, no, we're, we're not, we're not willing to do that. [25:42] And, uh, so Jerry and I were very public about calling for socially conscious [25:50] investors to, to make an offer for Ben and Jerry's. And, and some of them attempted to do that, but, [25:56] uh, Unilever refused to engage with them. Um, uh, and then the company got, [26:04] got split off into the Magnum corporation. So is, is the goal for free Ben and Jerry's.com [26:11] is the goals. If, if there's enough public momentum and movement behind this, [26:17] is this an awareness play? Are you, are you guys basically asking almost like the way musicians [26:22] during those old record label contracts, are you asking, Hey, let me go independent. I don't want to [26:26] be a part of the old record label. Can, will you let me spin off and do our own thing? Yeah, that's, [26:31] that's exactly what we're doing. Um, and then how, how does the public come into play here? Well, [26:37] I, I, I don't know if your dad doesn't own a private equity company. The, the, the reality [26:42] is that, uh, the fate of Ben and Jerry's is in the public's hands. If enough people get involved [26:49] and they make their voice heard, they stand up, they participate in the actions that are on the [26:55] website, they sign the letters, they sign the petitions, they, they bomb, uh, Magnum's social [27:03] media with, you know, statements about freeing Ben and Jerry's, um, Magnum is gonna end up having [27:11] to, to give in and sell it. And, uh, you know, and what's really happening from a, you know, financial [27:20] investor point of view is that this brand that they've got, Ben and Jerry's, this very [27:27] powerful brand, uh, which has been built on this values led business model. It's the very thing that [27:38] Magnum is in the process of destroying. They're destroying that values led business model. They're [27:45] therefore destroying the brand. They're ripping the heart out of, out of Ben and Jerry's and [27:51] it'll become less valuable. Did you know the average employer has to sort through 250 resumes per job [27:58] opening? I mean, that's insane. That would take so long. I mean, usually just be a problem for HR, [28:05] but we don't have HR at 186k. So how are we going to get through all those resumes? That's like 250 [28:10] resumes that I'm not going to even read. Well, if you're hiring, here's good news. You can now review [28:14] all of these resumes and applications faster. Thanks to ziprecruiter.com. Ziprecruiter has a new [28:19] feature that instantly shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. And today you can try it [28:24] for free at ziprecruiter.com slash Hassan. Ziprecruiter's matching technology finds qualified [28:29] candidates quickly. And with Ziprecruiter's new feature, qualified candidates who are very interested [28:33] in your job, they show up at the top of your list. They should add that to the dating apps. And now you [28:38] can also get a feel for an applicant's personality. Candidates can tell you in their own voice why [28:43] they're interested in your job. Cut through the standard and get to the stand outs with Ziprecruiter. [28:49] Four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now [28:53] you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash Hassan. That is ziprecruiter.com slash Hassan. [28:59] Meet your match on Ziprecruiter. It's a digital world we live in, folks. Whether you're a creative, [29:04] an entrepreneur, a small animal taxidermist, you need a solid internet presence to succeed. [29:09] Now, thankfully, this episode of HMDK is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one [29:14] website platform that will help you stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out [29:18] or growing your business, Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim a domain, [29:22] showcase your offerings, grow your brand, and get paid, baby. One of the best parts of [29:26] Squarespace is their cutting-edge design. It's usually really expensive to build a sleek, [29:30] professional website. I've had to hire people to do this, and they suck. But thanks to Squarespace's [29:35] collection of design tools, anyone can get that beautiful tailored look. Squarespace has a library [29:41] of professionally designed and award-winning templates to choose from. They have intuitive [29:45] drag-and-drop editing and high-quality visual design effects so you can build your brand's perfect [29:49] landing page. No experience required. For help with customization, you can turn to Blueprint AI, [29:55] Squarespace's AI-enhanced design partner. My favorite part of Squarespace is that they have [30:00] integrated SEO tools into Squarespace. All of their sites are optimized to be indexed with meta [30:05] descriptions and an auto-generated sitemap. That means you will show up more often on search engines [30:11] and bring in more of your target audience. Perfect for attention mongers like me. Check [30:16] out squarespace.com slash hussan for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use code hussan to [30:20] save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Thank you, Squarespace, for being a sponsor. [30:26] Kolkata Chai has brand new teabags. It is so easy, I literally don't have to think about it. Hot water, [30:32] tea bag, mug, dunzo. Okay, but what do I think about now? But real talk, what is a microwave [30:41] actually? It hums, it dings, it spins, but what is making the food hot? [30:46] Hello! Screw you, countertop Chernobyl. Hard pass. Okay, just enjoy this moment for one second without- [30:55] Ooh, hello, fridge. Oh, my chilly little frenemy. I tolerate you, but I do not trust you. Do you remove [31:02] heat, or do you add coal? Ew. I'm getting cold just thinking about it. You know what? I should [31:07] make some chai to warm up. Stupid hussan, you're already making chai, but I forgot about it because [31:13] these teabags are literally doing all the work. Wait, is it a teabag or a chai bag or a chai tea? [31:19] Nope. No, no, no. Not going there. Just add hot water, milk, and sweetener of your choice. Honestly, [31:24] it's the best chai in the game. I should go tell someone. I'm going to turn to a passion that you and I [31:33] share, dunking on the military-industrial complex. I'm going to share a video that you recently posted [31:38] on your IG. Here's the Pentagon budget. 50 Oreos, $1 trillion. Yo, Ben, the up-and-arms guy. I'm here [31:46] to talk about the federal discretionary budget. Here's how much the federal government spends on [31:51] education, renewable energy, childcare, helping homeless people, world hunger. Why don't we just [31:57] take some Oreos off this Pentagon stack? That's enough to fully fund schools that serve 8 million [32:04] kids. Take another one off, that's enough to convert 1 million homes to solar energy. Take two off, [32:11] that provides universal pre-k education. One Oreo, end homelessness. Two Oreos takes care of all the [32:20] people that don't have enough to eat. Take a look at this. China spends that much on their military. [32:26] Russia, that much. Iran, North Korea. Even after we take all those Oreos off, we still have more than [32:34] enough to protect ourselves. I mean, that's quaint. Trump's already said he wants a $1.5 trillion budget. [32:42] That's the amazing thing. President Trump calling for a massive investment in America's defense, [32:48] writing on Truth Social, quote, for the good of our country, especially in these very troubled [32:52] and dangerous times, our military budget for the year 2027 should not be $1 trillion, but rather [32:59] $1.5 trillion. What really amazes me about that is the callousness of that mentality that, I mean, [33:10] first the country is saying, hey, we're broke. We ain't got no money. We're in debt. And then he's saying, [33:18] well, I can figure out a way to squeeze out another $500 billion, and what I want to spend it on is the [33:25] Department of War. And what, where does that, I mean, what kind of mentality is that? I mean, [33:33] you've got people that are starving around the world. You've got people that are dying of preventable [33:40] diseases. You got people in our country that can't afford childcare. You got people in our country who [33:46] can't afford healthcare. And the first thing he thinks about is, let's build more weapons and kill [33:52] more people. You seem to be up in arms, pun intended. So we will go side stage and we will update that [33:58] diagram. I want us to kick off a fun little game show that we do here on Hassan Minhaj Doesn't Know. [34:05] It's called Know Your Empire. You ready? [34:09] All right. I'll try to get them right. [34:10] Let's do it. How many military bases does the United States currently have in other countries? [34:17] About 800 military bases around the world. That's what the US has. Do you know how many the [34:27] country who has the next highest number has? [34:29] I have no idea. Five. Well, clearly those bases are not to defend the United States. [34:35] Well, what are they for? They're to dominate the world. They're to [34:42] control the world through military force. How many countries does the United States [34:46] currently have troops stationed in? What is it? It's over 100, isn't it? Approximately 175. [34:57] Now, Netflix is currently streaming in 190 countries. So that's almost all of Netflix's [35:05] territories. How many countries is the United States in active armed conflict with? [35:10] Uh, well, at least 10, I think. The answer right now is four to six. Now, [35:20] I don't know if you're on signal with Pete Hegseth or Kash Patel, who's the head of the FBI. [35:26] Yeah. But it's four to six from what we've guessed. Iran, Venezuela, Syria, Somalia, [35:34] maybe Iraq in Nigeria. I just found out about Nigeria a month ago. I was like, [35:40] we have beef with Nigeria. And Niger too, I think. I mean, [35:48] what do you count when you say armed conflict? What is that? Including places that we bomb or [35:54] drone assassinate, that kind of thing? Well, to me, a bomb or drone is kind of the same. So whether [36:00] you kill brown people with a PlayStation controller or there's a human doing it, I think it's the same. [36:05] Right. But that's just me. Maybe I'm getting caught up in semantics. [36:07] I think my number of 10 is better than your number of four to six, but whatever. [36:11] What do you think of the name change from the Department of Defense [36:15] to now this thing called the Department of War? [36:18] Finally, something that Trump has said that's honest. It is not the Department of Defense. It [36:26] is the Department of War. [36:28] Dude, I agree. [36:29] It's not set up to defend the US. I'm actually pro this weird level of demented transparency. [36:35] Yes. Just say it for what it is. Pop the white head. [36:38] Like when you have a zit, just say what it is. [36:40] The US recently started a new war with Iran. I don't know if you've heard. Now, Iran is part of [36:50] the axis of evil. Now, as we know, evil is bad. Are Iran and Russia our enemies because they're [37:03] more evil than our allies? [37:06] Any country that doesn't do what we want them to do, that's an enemy. That is the official policy. [37:13] If you read the actual US policy, the national security posture and strategy, all that crap, [37:21] any country that develops economically or militarily must be considered to be an enemy. [37:28] And we must do what we can to keep that company, that country down. [37:34] We need to sanction the country. We need to [37:40] you know, develop military plans to to take over the company, the country. I mean, [37:48] the US is currently developing plans to have a war with China, which is so freaking absurd. [37:59] Wait, so we're mad at them because not because they directly did anything [38:04] bad to us, but because they're more successful. [38:08] We we don't like their form of government. We don't like the idea that they're economically [38:15] successful. And we believe that it's a zero sum game that we need to control the entire world. And [38:26] you know, China is getting to be powerful. And if we let them become too powerful, [38:33] then we won't control the entire world. I mean, I think what China wants and what just about every [38:41] country wants in the world, in the UN, is a multipolar world where the power does not reside just in one [38:53] country, but where countries are treated as equals. That was the idea of the United Nations. And [39:00] you know, the US has essentially thrown that out the window and said that we want a world where might [39:07] makes right. And we're going to be the mightiest country there is. And we're going to call the shots. [39:13] And we don't want to cooperate with other nations. [39:17] Well, so if the UN is calling for equality, what is the purpose of NATO? [39:22] The purpose of NATO was to protect the Western Europe from the Warsaw Pact. [39:29] The Warsaw Pact was that group of Soviet countries. And you know, when the Soviet Union dissolved, [39:41] there was no longer a need for the Warsaw Pact. It lost its purpose. And it should have been, [39:49] NATO should have been disbanded at that time. [39:51] But it still exists now, right? [39:52] It does. [39:53] And it's what, just a nuclear war trip wire? [39:59] So if Russia just fucks around and invades any of those NATO countries, [40:04] it's basically a green light to blow up the world? [40:06] Uh, I guess. I mean, I think the way those countries in Europe look at it is that there [40:19] used to be the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union had invaded them and taken them over. And [40:27] they're concerned that Russia is, you know, is going to try to do the same thing. But, you know, [40:35] clearly it's not strong enough to do that. It's not capable of doing it. I don't think, [40:43] I don't particularly think they, they want to do that. I mean, [40:46] they've got their hands full trying to run their own country. [40:49] I mean, this NATO and Russia thing, that issue got you in some particularly hot water, [40:59] especially with liberals. Ben and Jerry's tweeted, [41:02] we call on President Biden to deescalate tension and work for peace rather than prepare for war. [41:07] I thought that was a pretty benign tweet. I mean, we got a lot of kind of, these are a lot of Elmo [41:16] approved pieces of language. Deescalate. Elmo tells us to deescalate tension in fights. [41:23] Deescalate tension. Great. Work for peace. That seems cool. Rather instead preparing for war. [41:35] And liberals weren't happy with this tweet. They accused you of being an appeaser [41:42] who loves Putin. How'd that make you feel? I'm not pro-Putin. I'm not pro-Trump. I'm pro [41:53] not solving your problems through war. And, you know, how did it make me feel? [42:04] You know, it's okay. People can accuse me of whatever they want to accuse me of. I mean, [42:09] it kind of goes with the territory. I mean, if you're going to take a stand on something, [42:14] other people are going to be opposed to it. So unless based on this NATO agreement, [42:19] unless we're going to have a nuclear war with Russia, aren't we going to eventually get to the [42:23] point where we have to have some sort of settled agreement? I think so. Yeah. [42:29] So that's what the tweet was saying. I think you should have reworded the tweet. Here's what you [42:35] should have said. Look, a bunch of people are going to die and that's not good. And then after a bunch of [42:45] people die, there ends up being a peace agreement. So let's just skip over act one and two and let's [42:53] just get to the peace agreement. I'm with you. I'm part of an organization called the Eisenhower [42:59] Media Network, which is a bunch of former mid to high level military officers. And at the very beginning [43:10] of the war in Ukraine, we took out a full page ad in the New York Times and called for a ceasefire. [43:20] So instead of having a ceasefire, then what we had was a war that's what is it now in its fourth year [43:27] that's killed and destroyed. I don't know how many people and how many homes and villages and [43:34] eventually there's going to be some negotiated peace. Let's talk about something else that gives [43:43] me nightmares and prevents me from going to sleep at night. Nuclear weapons. You had another video [43:50] that demonstrated the insanity of America's nuclear arsenal. Let's take a look. [43:55] Let me show you something. Here's one BB. That represents the nuclear bomb that we dropped [44:02] on Hiroshima. And now what I'd like to do is demonstrate the size of our current nuclear [44:09] arsenal. That was 50,000 BBs. Enough to kill everybody on earth. Crazy. [44:26] You know what's fucking crazy, Ben? I saw that video first thing in the morning [44:31] before I had to drop my kids off at school. Fucked up my day, bro. [44:35] Hmm. Well, you can use that information to change it and make your day better. [44:43] Okay. Well, your boy had to take five milligrams of Xanax just to get through the day. [44:50] But in all seriousness, how many dollars does the U.S. military spend on nuclear weapons [44:56] per minute? Isn't it something like 125,000? Yes, it's approximately a hundred thousand dollars. [45:04] Yeah. And that's just nuclear weapons. What if instead of spending less, [45:10] on nuclear missiles, we spent more on defending ourself from nuclear missiles? [45:21] Allow me to show you a video from Pete Hegseth big upping the Golden Dome initiative. [45:29] We need that support in Congress and they're there. We appreciate their support and work [45:33] in getting that one big beautiful bill to the president's desk for signature. Because with [45:39] that signature came a massive $25 billion down payment on the Golden Dome for America. A [45:45] revolutionary shield of space-based weapons and sensors. A vigilant constellation of next generation [45:53] sensors and satellites that will see every threat from every corner of the globe. Paired with a network [46:00] of space-based interceptors ready to neutralize any ballistic missile, any hypersonic weapon, [46:06] any drone long before it threatens our homeland. That's how we establish complete and total orbital [46:14] supremacy. What's your response to this whole orbital supremacy thing? I mean, it's not white supremacy, [46:19] but this sounds pretty badass. It's, uh, it impressed me as a, uh, like a snake oil salesman, [46:26] uh, a medicine, a medicine show. What, what made you call bullshit on this? Because for me, [46:32] it was, it was, it was the Comic Sans MS font at the bottom. That's the part that really got me. I [46:38] can't take, I mean, we didn't do the captioning there. That was the Department of Defense. Let me [46:42] tell you something. DOD, if you're watching this, the rest of the world is laughing at us. There's [46:48] plenty of font options. You can't go with that. But what did, what did you think of that? [46:54] Uh, you know, it's a physical and mathematical impossibility. It can't be done. Why? You know, [47:05] people talk about it, uh, as hitting a bullet with a bullet. Uh, you know, the number of interceptors [47:11] that it would require is, uh, unrealistic. Uh, it's, it's a beautiful idea. It's a beautiful fantasy, [47:20] but an invisible shield that will protect us from any and all threats. It just doesn't exist. [47:27] And it never will exist because it's a physical impossibility. I mean, you know, [47:31] this is just a replay of, uh, Star Wars. Uh, not the George Lucas movie. You're talking about [47:39] the pitch that Ronald Reagan made in the 1980s. Right. He made the same pitch. I'm going to come [47:44] up with an invisible shield that's going to protect us from any and all possible, uh, threats. [47:51] When you saw Ronald Reagan make the Star Wars pitch in the eighties, you weren't buying it? [47:56] No, I wasn't. I, you know, I mean, you didn't see the video. If, if you, Austin play Ben, [48:03] the video, you didn't see this us spy satellites would watch the world below the first response [48:10] space-based kinetic energy weapons fire high-speed projectiles from hypervelocity guns. [48:16] Earth-based nuclear powered X-ray lasers fire their radioactive rays. [48:21] lasers fire beams that burn through the shell of the onrushing missiles. [48:27] Vibing warheads enter the atmosphere above the United States are attacked by laser-equipped planes. [48:37] Base lasers and AVM rockets eliminate the last warheads. [48:42] So, kinetic energy weapons, chemical lasers, particle beams. You can't beat that. [48:49] It's, it's make believe that it's beautifully produced. [48:53] That's what orbital supremacy looks like. It looks like Tron. And I'm saying that as someone who stars [49:01] in Tron Aries, I'm in six scenes and it's streaming now on Disney plus. [49:05] It looks like Tron Aries. [49:06] Take that Putin. [49:07] How do you make sense of the very real reality that no matter which political party is in power, [49:17] defense spending year to year is always going up. It's not going down. [49:23] It's not defense spending. It's war spending. And yes, you're, you're absolutely right. [49:30] Uh, both parties are equally to blame for, you know, this, you know, for, for what I think is [49:40] destroying the soul and the spirit of America. Uh, you know, America is not about taking pa- taking [49:51] care of people who need help. It's not about providing health care for people who need health [49:57] care. It's not about providing food for people who need food. It's about killing huge numbers of [50:05] people. Uh, I, I mean, I'm, I'm not exaggerating. I, I mean, the, the weapons that we have are designed [50:13] to kill literally millions of people. And the, the mentality is that, well, and that's not enough. [50:22] We need more. Uh, and, and, you know, I mean, you can kind of understand it that it's gotten [50:32] simplified to the extent that, uh, what people have come to understand what they've been told is that [50:42] if we spend more money on the military, we'll be safer, but it's, it's not true. I mean, you know, [50:52] like Trump, he doesn't think about, well, what, what weapons do we need actually to, to be safer? [51:01] He thinks about, I'd like to have a trillion dollar military budget. And so he raises it to that level [51:08] and then says, you guys figure out, you know, how to spend it, what to buy with it. And, and then he [51:13] says, well, you know, a trillion, you know, that's pretty good, but I want the next one to be one and a [51:19] half trillion. And I don't know what it's, what it's going to pay for, but you guys figure it out. [51:26] But the reality is that it makes us all less safe. It makes us all less secure because that money [51:35] could be spent on things that would really make us more safe, more secure, things that would make us [51:42] healthier, things that would allow us to have childcare for our kids, things that would allow us to [51:47] buy houses, things that would allow us to, you know, feed people that, that don't have enough to eat. [51:56] You know, I mean, you walk around, you say, oh, there's such a homelessness problem. It's horrible. [52:01] You know, nothing could be done about it. I mean, you could end homelessness for $40 billion a year, [52:11] which is chicken feed compared to a trillion dollar Pentagon budget soon to be, well, if he gets his [52:19] way, 1.5 trillion. Well, are Americans basically just not allowed to vote for decreasing the defense [52:28] budget or as you call it, the war budget? I think that's true. You know, none of the major party [52:35] candidates are talking about that because they're deathly afraid if they talk about reducing the [52:43] Pentagon budget, their political opponent is going to call them weak on defense. And, uh, and that's, [52:52] you know, that's going to make it hard for them to get elected. That's a charge that, uh, you know, [53:02] the problem is that the it's, it's kind of a complex issue and people are busy, you know, trying to fix [53:11] the hole in the roof and, and pick the kids up from daycare and they don't have the, uh, ability to, [53:19] to analyze this stuff. And so some guy says, well, we need to spend more money to be safer, uh, or else [53:27] that guy's going to come in and kill us. I mean, I guess. Three years after Ben and Jerry started [53:36] in 1981, Bernie Sanders became the mayor of Burlington, Vermont. You and Jerry scooped ice [53:45] cream at the victory party. You were the original Bernie bros and have been huge supporters of Bernie [53:51] Sanders throughout his entire career. What is it about Vermont that makes you care about your fellow [54:01] American citizens? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think that, uh, for one thing, [54:08] Vermont is a very, very small state. Uh, and people, people know each other. I mean, [54:15] it's not like people are in the way. It's like people, you know, you like running into a person [54:21] because it doesn't happen that often. And, uh, and, and also there's, there's kind of a, a farm and [54:30] rural mentality, which is that you help your neighbor, that, you know, you know, I mean, [54:38] there, there aren't that many people around. You see, you see someone in trouble, you help them out. [54:44] Do you think? I mean, the other thing about Vermont is that the biggest things in Vermont [54:51] are natural things, mountains, uh, the lake, trees. Whereas, you know, you end up like in a city, [55:00] like here and the biggest things are manmade. So you have more of a sense of yourself as a human [55:08] being, not being the biggest thing, but being a small part of a, of a, a natural world. That's [55:17] beautiful, man. Do you think that if the DNC had supported Bernie Sanders more in 2016, [55:23] there was a possibility that he could have been president? Absolutely. I, I have no doubt in [55:28] my mind. I mean, what was amazing to me was I was receiving emails from the Bernie campaign and I [55:37] was receiving emails from the Trump campaign and they were very similar. You signed up for both [55:44] listservs. Yeah. Uh, they were very similar. I mean, you know, uh, we need to be saved from all [55:52] those corporations that are screwing us. We need to be saved from the ultra wealthy that are screwing us. [55:57] Um, I'm for you, the little guy. Uh, you know, it's just that one of them was honest and the other [56:08] one was just kind of pandering. Do you think the Democratic Party learned its lesson in 2016, [56:14] 2020, 2024? No, no. I've, I've kind of given up on the Democratic Party. I, you know, I think it's just [56:23] calcified. Uh, I, I think, I think mostly it's, it's, you know, there, there are some, [56:33] there are some notable exceptions, but I think to a, to a large extent, it's a lot of, uh, old white men [56:44] that, uh, that are, that are just caring too much about their own position and, and getting reelected and [56:55] not, not trying to change the country, uh, in a way that, that, you know, kind of revives the spirit [57:06] of America, the, that, uh, you know, they're not looking to, you know, I mean, they're fiddling [57:12] around the edges. They're, they're not, they're not making any of the major changes in terms of [57:19] how our economy is structured, how our, you know, how the whole federal budget is structured in order [57:26] to prioritize the benefit of regular everyday people, as opposed to prioritizing the benefit of [57:38] corporations and the ultra ultra wealthy and, uh, weapons manufacturers. [57:43] So listen, man, you've been fighting the good fight for 50 years. [57:46] Are you hopeful or do you feel hopeless about the future? [57:50] You know, I get, I guess if you're continuing to fight, you must feel hopeful. [57:55] Uh, you know, I mean, what, what choice do you have? [57:59] Uh, you can, you know, you're confronted with injustice. [58:05] You can either ignore it, you can complain about it, or you can try to do something about it. [58:11] And, you know, I, I understand that certainly me, myself, I'm not going to be able to, to solve the [58:20] problem, but there's a heck of a lot of other people that are also working on it. [58:24] Uh, you're working on it. [58:26] And, you know, uh, Pete Seeger told me this story, uh, that he came, you know, he was walking along and he, [58:38] he comes, he sees this playground off in the distance and he gets closer to it and he sees [58:46] what's going on is that there's this giant seesaw and there's lots of people running around. [58:54] And he gets closer and he sees that, uh, you know, the seesaw is, you know, one side is down, [59:01] there's this giant rock on it and the other side is up and there's all these people with teaspoons [59:11] running around, taking a teaspoon of sand from this big pile of sand, climbing up this ladder [59:16] and dumping it in the bucket as the part of the seesaw that's up. [59:20] And, you know, he's watching this going on and, and he's noticing that there's holes in the bucket [59:27] and that the sand is, is running out. And so he, he pulls one of these guys aside and he says, [59:35] stop, stop. You gotta, you gotta see what's going on here. And, you know, he gets the guy to stop. [59:40] The guy was sweating. He wipes his head and, and, and Pete says, don't you see there's holes in the [59:47] bucket and the sand is running out and you're never going to get that thing to flip. And the guy says, [59:53] oh no, you don't understand. There's more of us with teaspoons all the time. And one of these days [1:00:00] where there's going to be more coming in faster than it's running out. And all of a sudden the [1:00:05] whole thing is going to flip. And so, you know, I'm a guy with a teaspoon and there's more of us. [1:00:12] And you're, and you're racing up to fill up that bucket. [1:00:15] Yeah. Doing what I can. I mean, what do you, otherwise you, you just accept it. [1:00:21] Say, well, yeah, it's really fucked up. We're killing gloves, gloves of people. [1:00:25] We could be feeding. We could be helping. We could be making the world a much better place, [1:00:30] but we're not. And well, I'm just going to go back home and I don't know, smoke some dope. [1:00:39] Ben, I appreciate you taking your spoon, filling it up with sand, [1:00:44] climbing up that thing and filling up that goddamn bucket. And I hope we all help you fill up that bucket. [1:00:49] It'd be great to be climbing up that ladder with you. [1:00:51] Hey man, freebenandjerrys.com. All right. [1:00:54] Free Ben. Yo. [1:00:56] Ben Cohen, ladies and gentlemen. All right. Hassan, Hassan, Hassan. [1:01:01] Let's do, let's do a demonstration. Let's do a demo. Let's use some Oreos and do a demonstration. [1:01:05] These gold ones on top, that's the half a trillion dollars that Trump wants to add [1:01:10] to the department award budget. These little orange ones, that's the 150 billion that he's [1:01:16] already added because he likes big numbers like that. You could take 11 of these Oreos, [1:01:20] that is enough to provide Medicaid insurance for everybody in the country. Homeless people, [1:01:27] you could take care of them for two Oreos. Universal pre-K for another two Oreos. Lead [1:01:34] poisoning is irreversible. We could get rid of it for three Oreos. People that are literally starving [1:01:40] to death. You could take care of all of them for this many. You have a shit ton of Oreos. [1:01:47] Here's how much China spends, Russia spends, Iran spends. Wait, they're just half of an Oreo? [1:01:52] Yeah, 10 billion. Wait, what about Kim Jong-un? Oh yeah, they got a half Oreo too. The dude in the [1:01:57] White House, he could use his Oreos to actually help people. This is great sponsored content for Oreo. [1:02:02] Hashtag Fuck Rapey.