CEOs of Meta, TikTok, X and other social media companies testify in Senate hearing

[0:00] our lives, and in some cases, take their lives. [0:03] Everyone here will agree this conduct is abhorrent. [0:07] I'd like to turn to a brief video [0:08] to hear directly from the victims, [0:11] the survivors, about the impact [0:13] these crimes have had on them. [0:20] I was sexually exploited on Facebook. [0:23] I was sexually exploited on Instagram. [0:25] I was sexually exploited on X. [0:28] This is my daughter, Olivia. [0:30] This is our son, Matthew. [0:32] Look at how beautiful Miriam is. [0:34] My son, Riley, died from suicide [0:36] after being sexually exploited on Facebook. [0:40] The child that he gets exploited [0:42] is never the same ever again. [0:44] I reported this issue numerous times, [0:47] and it took over a decade before anyone helped me. [0:50] You might be able to tell that I am using a green screen. [0:53] Why is that? [0:54] In the internet world, my past abusers can contact me. [0:59] Fans of my abuse material as a child [1:03] can find me and contact me. [1:05] As a 17-year-old child, I had to write a victim impact statement [1:09] after being extorted for four consecutive years. [1:11] While I was strong enough to resist sending him any more pictures, [1:14] there were dozens more who were not. [1:16] We got a phone call to find out that my son was in his room [1:19] and was suicidal. [1:20] He was only 13 years old at the time. [1:22] Him and a friend had been exploited online and trafficked, [1:26] and my son reached out to Twitter. [1:28] Twitter, or now X, his response was, [1:31] thank you for reaching out. [1:33] We reviewed the content, and we did not find a violation of our policies. [1:38] So no action will be taken at this time. [1:40] How many more kids, like Matthew? [1:43] Like Olivia? [1:44] Like Riley? [1:46] How many more kids will suffer and die because of social media? [1:50] Big tech failed to protect my child from sexual exploitation. [1:55] Big tech failed to protect me from online sexual exploitation. [2:00] And we need Congress to do something for our children and protect them. [2:03] It's not too late. [2:05] It's not too late to do something about it. [2:08] Online child sexual exploitation is a crisis in America. [2:13] In 2013, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, [2:17] known as NCMEC, received approximately 1,380 cyber tips per day. [2:24] By 2023, just 10 years later, the number of cyber tips has risen to 100,000 reports a day. [2:33] That's 100,000 daily reports of child sexual abuse material, also known as CSAM. [2:42] In recent years, we've also seen an explosion in the so-called financial sextortion, [2:47] in which a predator uses a fake social media account to trick a minor into sending explicit [2:53] photos or videos, then threatens to release them unless the victim sends money. [2:58] In 2021, NCMEC received a total of 139 reports of sextortion, 2021. [3:07] In 2023, through the end of October alone, this number skyrocketed to more than 22,000. [3:14] More than a dozen children have died by suicide after becoming victims of this crime. [3:20] This disturbing growth in child sexual exploitation is driven by one thing, changes in technology. [3:28] In 1996, the world's best-selling cell phone was the Motorola StarTAC. [3:34] While groundbreaking at the time, the clamshell-style cell phone wasn't much different [3:38] from a traditional phone. It allowed users to make and receive calls, and even receive text messages. [3:45] But that was about it. Fast forward to today. Smartphones are in the pockets of seemingly every [3:51] man, woman, and teenager on the planet. Like the StarTAC today, today's smartphones allow users [3:58] to make and receive calls and texts. But they can also take photos and videos, support live streaming, [4:04] and offer countless apps. With the touch of your finger, that smartphone that can entertain [4:10] and inform you can become a back alley where the lives of your children are damaged and destroyed. [4:16] These apps have changed the ways we live, work, and play. But as investigations have detailed, [4:23] social media and messaging apps have also given predators powerful new tools to sexually exploit [4:29] children. Your carefully crafted algorithms can be more powerful force on the lives of our children [4:37] than even the most best-intentioned parent. Discord has been used to groom, abduct, and abuse children. [4:44] Meta's Instagram helped connect and promote a network of pedophiles. Snapchat's disappearing messages [4:51] have been co-opted by criminals who financially extort young victims. TikTok has become a, quote, [4:58] platform of choice for predators to access, engage, and groom children for abuse. And the prevalence of [5:05] CSAM on X has grown as the company has gutted its trust and safety workforce. Today, we'll hear from the [5:12] CEOs of those companies. They are not only the tech companies that have contributed to this crisis, [5:18] they are responsible for many of the dangers our children face online. Their design choices, [5:24] their failures to adequately invest in trust and safety, their constant pursuit of engagement and [5:30] profit over basic safety have all put our kids and grandkids at risk. Coincidentally, [5:36] Coincidentally, several of these companies implemented common sense child safety improvements within the [5:44] last week, days before their CEOs would have to justify their lack of action before this committee. [5:51] But the tech industry alone is not to blame for the situation we're in. Those of us in Congress need [5:57] to look in the mirror. In 1996, the same year the Motorola StarTech was flying off shelves, and years before social media went mainstream, [6:06] we passed Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This law immunized the then-fledgling internet platforms [6:16] from liability for user-generated content. Interesting, only one other industry in America has an immunity from [6:27] civil liability. We'll leave that for another day. For the past 30 years, Section 230 has remained largely unchanged, [6:34] allowing big tech to grow into the most profitable industry in the history of capitalism, without fear of [6:40] liability for unsafe practices. That has to change. Over the past year, this committee has unanimously [6:48] reported five bills that would finally hold tech companies accountable for child sexual exploitation on [6:54] their platforms. Unanimous. Take a look at the opposition and membership of the Senate Judiciary Committee, [7:01] and imagine, if you will, there's anything we could agree on unanimously. These five bills were the [7:08] object of agreement. One of these bills is by Stop CSAM Act. Critically, it would let victims [7:15] sue online providers that promote or aid and abet online child sexual exploitation or that host or store [7:22] CSAM. This stand against online child sexual exploitation is bipartisan and absolutely necessary. [7:30] Let this hearing be a call to action. We need to get kids online safety legislation to the president's [7:36] desk. I now turn to the ranking member, Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Republicans [7:43] will answer the call. All of us, every one of us, is ready to work with you and our Democratic colleagues [7:50] on this committee to prove to the American people while Washington is certainly broken, there's a ray of hope [7:57] and it is here. It lies with your children. After years of working on this issue with you and others, [8:04] I've come to conclude the following. Social media companies as they are currently designed and operate [8:12] are dangerous products. They're destroying lives, threatening democracy itself. These companies must be [8:21] reined in or the worst is yet to come. Gavin Guffey is a representative, Republican representative, [8:31] from South Carolina in the Rock Hill area. To all the victims who came and showed us photos of your [8:40] loved ones, don't quit. It's working. You're making a difference. Through you, we'll get to where we need [8:47] to go so other people won't have to show a photo of their family. The damage your family's been done, [8:55] hopefully we can take your pain and turn it into something positive so nobody else has to hold up a sign. [9:02] Gavin's son got online with the Instagram and was tricked by a group in Nigeria that put up a young [9:13] lady posing to be his girlfriend. As things go at that stage in life, he gave her some photos, [9:23] compromising sexual photos. It turned out that she was part of an extortion group in Nigeria. They [9:32] young man that if you don't give us money, we're going to expose these photos. He gave them money, [9:37] but it wasn't enough. They kept threatening and he killed himself. They threatened Mr. Guffey and a [9:44] son. These are bastards by any known definition. Mr. Zuckerberg, you and the companies before us, [9:54] I know you don't mean it to be so, but you have blood on your hands. You have a product. You have [10:02] a product that's killing people. When we had cigarettes killing people, we did something about [10:11] it. Maybe not enough. You're going to talk about guns. We have the ATF. Nothing here. There's not a [10:17] damn thing anybody can do about it. You can't be sued. Now, Senator Blumenthal and Blackburn, who've been [10:25] like the dynamic duo here, have found emails from your company where they warned you about this stuff [10:31] and you decided not to hire 45 people that could do a better job of policing this. So the bottom line [10:38] is you can't be sued. You should be. And these emails would be great for punitive damages. But the [10:46] courtrooms closed. Every American abused by all the companies in front of me. Of all the people in [10:52] America, we could give blanket liability protection too. This would be the last group I would pick. [11:00] It is now time to repeal Section 230. This committee is made up of the ideologically [11:07] most different people you could find. We've come together through your leadership, Mr. Chairman, [11:12] to pass five bills to deal with the problem of exploitation of children. I'll talk about them [11:20] in depth in a little bit. The bottom line is all these bills have met the same fate. [11:26] They go nowhere. They leave the committee and they die. Now there's another approach. [11:32] What do you do with dangerous products? Either allow lawsuits, you have statutory protections to [11:37] protect consumers, or you have a commission of sorts to regulate the industry in question, [11:43] to take your license away if you have a license, to fine you. None of that exists here. We live in [11:49] America in 2024 where there is no regulatory body dealing with the most profitable, biggest companies in [11:56] the history of the world. They can't be sued and there's not one law on the book that's meaningful [12:01] protecting the American consumer. Other than that, we're in a good spot. So here's what I think is [12:08] going to happen. I think after this hearing today, we're going to put a lot of pressure on our colleagues, [12:15] leadership of the Republican Democratic Senate to let these bills get to the floor and vote. [12:21] And I'm going to go down, starting in a couple of weeks, make unanimous request, unanimous consent [12:28] requests to do CSAM, do the Earn It Act, do your bill, do all the bills, and you can be famous, [12:34] come and object. I'm going to give you a chance to be famous. Now Elizabeth Warren and Lindsey Graham have [12:40] almost nothing in common. I promised her I would say that publicly. The only thing worse than me doing [12:47] a bill with Elizabeth Warren is her doing a bill with me. We have sort of parked that because Elizabeth and [12:55] I see an abuse here that needs to be dealt with. Senator Durbin and I have different political [13:01] philosophies, but I appreciate what you've done on this committee. You've been a great partner. To [13:05] all of my Democratic colleagues, thank you very, very much. To my Republican colleagues, thank you all [13:11] very, very much. Save the applause for when we get a result. It's all talk right now, but they'll come a day [13:20] if we keep pressing to get the right answer for the American people. What is that answer? Accountability. [13:26] Now these products have an upside. You've enriched our lives in many ways. Mr. Zuckerberg, you created a [13:33] product I use. You the the idea, I think when you first came of this, be able to talk to your friends [13:40] and your family and pass on your life to be able to have a place where you could talk to your friends [13:44] and family about good things going on in life. And I use it. We all use it. There's an upside to [13:51] everything here. But the dark side hasn't been dealt with. It's now time to deal with the dark side because [13:58] people have taken your idea and they've turned it into a nightmare for the American people. [14:04] They've turned it into a nightmare for the world at large. Tick tock. We had a great discussion about [14:10] how maybe Larry Ellison to Oracle can protect American data from Chinese communist influence. [14:18] But tick tock, your representative Israel quit the company because tick tock is being used in a way to [14:25] basically destroy the Jewish state. This is not just about individuals. I worry that in 2024 our democracy [14:35] will be attacked again through these platforms by foreign actors. We're exposed and AI is just [14:43] starting. So to my colleagues, we're here for a reason. This committee has a history of being tough, [14:53] but also doing things that need to be done. This committee has risen to the occasion. There's more [14:59] that we can do. But to the members of this committee, let's insist that our colleagues rise to the [15:05] occasion also. Let's make sure that in 118th Congress, we have votes that would fix this problem. [15:13] All you can do is cast your vote at the end of the day, but you can urge the system to require others [15:20] to cast their vote. Mr. Chairman, I will continue to work with you and everybody on this committee [15:26] to have a day of reckoning on the floor of the United States Senate. Thank you. Thank you, Senator Graham. [15:31] Today we welcome five witnesses whom I'll introduce now. Jason Citron, the CEO of Discord Incorporated, [15:40] Mark Zuckerberg, the founder and CEO of Meta, Evan Spiegel, the co-founder and CEO of Snap Incorporated, [15:48] Sho Chu, the CEO of TikTok, and Linda Iaccarino, the CEO of X Corporation, formerly known as Twitter. [15:56] I will note for the record that Mr. Zuckerberg and Mr. Chu are appearing voluntarily. I am disappointed [16:05] that our other witnesses did not offer that same degree of cooperation. Mr. Citron, Mr. Spiegel, [16:11] and Ms. Iaccarino are here pursuant to subpoenas, and Mr. Citron only accepted service of his subpoena [16:17] after U.S. Marshals were sent to Discord's headquarters at taxpayer expense. I hope this [16:24] is not a sign of your commitment or lack of commitment to addressing the serious issue before [16:29] us. After I swear in the witnesses, each witness will have five minutes to make an opening statement, [16:35] then senators will ask questions in an opening round each of seven minutes. I expect to take a [16:40] short break at some point during questioning to allow the witnesses to stretch their legs. [16:45] If anyone is in need of a break at any point, please let my staff know. Before I turn to the [16:49] witnesses, I'd also like to take a moment to acknowledge that this hearing has gathered a [16:54] lot of attention, as we expected. We have a large audience, the largest I've seen in this room today. [17:01] I want to make clear, as with other Judiciary Committee hearings, we ask people to behave appropriately. [17:07] I know there is high emotion in this room for justifiable reasons, but I ask you to please follow [17:13] the traditions of the committee. That means no standing, shouting, chanting, or applauding witnesses. [17:19] Disruptions will not be tolerated. Anyone who does disrupt the hearing will be asked to leave. [17:25] The witnesses are here today to address a serious topic. We want to hear what they have to say. [17:30] I thank you for your cooperation. Could all of the witnesses please stand to be sworn in? Do you affirm [17:40] the testimony you're about to give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, [17:43] and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Let the record reflect that all the witnesses have answered [17:49] in the affirmative. Mr. Citron, please proceed with your opening statement. [17:57] Good morning. My name is Jason Citron, and I am the co-founder and CEO of Discord. We are an American [18:06] company with about 800 employees living and working in 33 states. Today, Discord has grown to more than 150 [18:15] million monthly active users. Discord is a communications platform where friends hang out and talk online [18:23] about shared interests, from fantasy sports to writing music to video games. I've been playing video [18:31] games since I was five years old, and as a kid, it's how I had fun and found friendship. Many of my fondest [18:39] memories are of playing video games with friends. We built Discord so that anyone could build friendships [18:47] playing video games from Minecraft to Wordle and everything in between. Games have always brought [18:53] us together, and Discord makes that happen today. Discord is one of the many services that have [19:00] revolutionized how we communicate with each other in the different moments of our lives. iMessage, Zoom, [19:07] Gmail, and on and on. They enrich our lives, create communities, accelerate commerce, health care, and [19:16] education. Just like with all technology and tools, there are people who exploit and abuse our platforms [19:24] for immoral and illegal purposes. All of us here on the panel today and throughout the tech industry have [19:32] a solemn and urgent responsibility to ensure that everyone who uses our platforms is protected from [19:39] these criminals, both online and off. Discord has a special responsibility to do that because a lot of [19:47] our users are young people. More than 60% of our active users are between the ages of 13 and 24. It's [19:55] why safety is built into everything we do. It's essential to our mission and our business. And most of all, [20:03] this is deeply personal. I'm a dad with two kids. I want Discord to be a product that they use and love, [20:11] and I want them to be safe on Discord. I want them to be proud of me for helping to bring this product [20:18] to the world. That's why I am pleased to be here today to discuss the important topic of the online [20:25] safety of minors. My written testimony provides a comprehensive overview of our safety programs. [20:32] Here are a few examples of how we protect and empower young people. First, we've put our money [20:41] into safety. The tech sector has a reputation of larger companies buying smaller ones to increase user [20:48] numbers and boost financial results. But the largest acquisition we've ever made at Discord was a [20:54] company called Centropy. It didn't help us expand our market share or improve our bottom line. In fact, [21:02] because it uses AI to help us identify, ban, and report criminals and bad behavior, it has actually [21:09] lowered our user count by getting rid of bad actors. Second, you've heard of end-to-end encryption that blocks [21:17] anyone, including the platform itself, from seeing users' communications. It's a feature on dozens of [21:24] platforms, but not on Discord. That's a choice we've made. We don't believe we can fulfill our safety [21:32] obligations if the text messages of teens are fully encrypted, because encryption would block our ability [21:39] to investigate a serious situation and, when appropriate, report to law enforcement. Third, [21:46] we have a zero-tolerance policy on child sexual abuse material, or CSAM. We scan images uploaded to [21:54] Discord to detect and block the sharing of this abhorrent material. We've also built an innovative tool, [22:01] Teen Safety Assist, that blocks explicit images and helps young people easily report unwelcome [22:07] conversations. We've also developed a new semantic hashing technology for detecting novel forms of [22:14] CSAM called CLIP, and we're sharing this technology with other platforms through the Tech Coalition. [22:20] Finally, we recognize that improving online safety requires all of us to work together, so we partner [22:28] with non-profits, law enforcement, and our tech colleagues to stay ahead of the curve in protecting [22:33] young people online. We want to be the platform that empowers our users to have better online experiences, [22:41] to build true connections, genuine friendships, and to have fun. Senators, I sincerely hope today [22:48] is the beginning of an ongoing dialogue that results in real improvements in online safety. [22:53] I look forward to your questions and to helping the committee learn more about Discord. [22:57] Thank you, Mr. Sitra and Mr. Zuckerberg. [22:59] Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and members of the committee. [23:07] Every day, teens and young people do amazing things on our services. They use our apps to create new things, [23:13] express themselves, explore the world around them, and feel more connected to the people they care about. [23:18] Overall, teens tell us that this is a positive part of their lives, but some face challenges online, [23:24] so we work hard to provide parents and teens support and controls to reduce potential harms. [23:29] Being a parent is one of the hardest jobs in the world. Technology gives us new ways to communicate [23:35] with our kids and feel connected to their lives, but it can also make parenting more complicated, [23:39] and it's important to me that our services are positive for everyone who uses them. [23:43] We are on the side of parents everywhere working hard to raise their kids. [23:48] Over the last eight years, we've built more than 30 different tools, resources, and features that [23:52] parents can set time limits for their teens using our apps, see who they're following, or if they [23:58] report someone for bullying. For teens, we've added nudges to remind them when they've been using [24:02] Instagram for a while or if it's getting late and they should go to sleep, as well as ways to hide [24:06] words or people without those people finding out. We put special restrictions on teen accounts on [24:11] Instagram. By default, accounts for under 16s are set to private, have the most restrictive content [24:17] settings, and can't be messaged by adults that they don't follow or people they aren't connected to. [24:22] With so much of our lives spent on mobile devices and social media, it's important to look into the [24:27] effects on teen mental health and well-being. I take this very seriously. Mental health is a complex [24:33] issue, and the existing body of scientific work has not shown a causal link between using social media [24:40] and young people having worse mental health outcomes. A recent National Academies of Science [24:46] report evaluated over 300 studies and found that research, quote, did not support the conclusion [24:53] that social media causes changes in adolescent mental health at the population level, end quote. [24:58] It also suggested that social media can provide significant positive benefits when young people use [25:03] it to express themselves, explore and connect with others. Still, we're going to continue to monitor [25:08] the research and use it to inform our roadmap. Keeping young people safe online has been a challenge [25:14] since the internet began, and as criminals evolve their tactics, we have to evolve our defenses too. [25:20] We work closely with law enforcement to find bad actors and help bring them to justice, [25:25] but the difficult reality is that no matter how much we invest or how effective our tools are, [25:31] there's always more to learn and more improvements to make. But we remain ready to work with members of [25:37] this committee, industry, and parents to make the internet safer for everyone. I'm proud of the work [25:43] that our teams do to improve online child safety on our services and across the entire internet. [25:48] We have around 40,000 people overall working on safety and security, and we've invested more than [25:53] 20 billion dollars in this since 2016, including around 5 billion dollars in the last year alone. [25:59] We have many teams dedicated to child safety and teen well-being, and we lead the industry in a lot of [26:04] the areas that we're discussing today. We build technology to tackle the worst online risks and [26:09] share it to help our whole industry get better, like Project Lantern, which helps companies share data [26:14] about people who break child safety rules, and we're founding members of Take It Down, [26:18] a platform which helps young people prevent their nude images from being spread online. [26:22] We also go beyond legal requirements and use sophisticated technology to proactively discover abusive [26:29] material. And as a result, we find and report more inappropriate content than anyone else in the [26:34] industry. As the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children put it this week, Meta goes, quote, [26:41] above and beyond to make sure that there are no portions of their network where this type of activity [26:45] occurs, end quote. I hope we can have a substantive discussion today that drives improvements across the [26:51] industry, including legislation that delivers what parents say they want, a clear system for age [26:57] verification and control over what apps their kids are using. Three out of four parents want app store [27:03] age verification, and four out of five want parental approval of whatever, whenever teens download apps. [27:11] We support this. Parents should have the final say on what apps are appropriate for their children [27:17] and shouldn't have to upload their ID every time. That's what app stores are for. We also support [27:23] setting industry standards on age-appropriate content and limiting signals for advertising to teens, [27:28] to age and location and not behavior. At the end of the day, we want everyone who uses our services to [27:35] have safe and positive experiences. Before I wrap up, I want to recognize the families who are here today [27:43] who have lost a loved one or lived through some some terrible things that no family should have to [27:48] endure. These issues are important for every parent and every platform. I'm committed to continuing to work [27:55] in these areas, and I hope we can make progress today. Thank you. Mr. Spiegel. Chairman Durbin, [28:13] Ranking Member Graham, and members of the committee, thank you for convening this hearing and for moving [28:18] forward important legislation to protect children online. I'm Evan Spiegel, the co-founder and CEO of Snap. [28:25] We created Snapchat, an online service that is used by more than 800 million people worldwide to communicate [28:31] with their friends and family. I know that many of you have been working to protect children online since [28:36] before Snapchat was created, and we are grateful for your long-term dedication to this cause and your [28:41] willingness to work together to help keep our community safe. I want to acknowledge the survivors [28:46] of online harms and the families who are here today who have suffered the loss of a loved one. Words [28:52] cannot begin to express the profound sorrow I feel that a service we designed to bring people happiness [28:57] and joy has been abused to cause harm. I want to be clear that we understand our responsibility to keep our [29:04] community safe. I also want to recognize the many families who have worked to raise awareness on [29:10] these issues, pushed for change, and collaborated with lawmakers on important legislation like the [29:15] Cooper Davis Act, which can help save lives. I started building Snapchat with my co-founder Bobby Murphy [29:21] when I was 20 years old. We designed Snapchat to solve some of the problems that we experienced online [29:26] when we were teenagers. We didn't have an alternative to social media. That meant pictures shared online [29:31] were permanent, public, and subject to popularity metrics. It didn't feel very good. [29:36] We built Snapchat differently because we wanted a new way to communicate with our friends that was fast, [29:41] fun, and private. A picture is worth a thousand words so people communicate with images and videos [29:46] on Snapchat. We don't have public likes or comments when you share your story with friends. [29:52] Snapchat is private by default, meaning that people need to opt in to add friends and choose who can [29:57] contact them. When we built Snapchat, we chose to have the images and videos sent through our service [30:02] delete by default, unlike prior generations who have enjoyed the privacy afforded by phone calls, [30:09] which aren't recorded. Our generation has benefited from the ability to share moments through Snapchat [30:14] that may not be picture perfect but instead convey emotion without permanence. Even though Snapchat [30:19] messages are deleted by default, we let everyone know that images and videos can be saved by the [30:24] recipient. When we take action on illegal or potentially harmful content, we also retain the evidence for [30:29] an extended period, which allows us to support law enforcement and hold criminals accountable. To help prevent the [30:35] spread of harmful content on Snapchat, we approve the content that is recommended on our service using [30:40] a combination of automated processes and human review. We apply our content rules consistently and [30:46] fairly across all accounts. We run samples of our enforcement actions through quality assurance to verify [30:51] that we are getting it right. We also proactively scan for known child sexual abuse material, drug-related [30:57] content, and other types of harmful content, remove that content, deactivate and device block offending accounts, [31:02] preserve the evidence for law enforcement, and report certain content to the relevant authorities for [31:08] further action. Last year we made 690,000 reports to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, [31:14] leading to more than 1,000 arrests. We also removed 2.2 million pieces of drug-related content and blocked 705,000 [31:21] associated accounts. Even with our strict privacy settings, content moderation efforts, proactive detection, [31:28] and law enforcement collaboration, bad things can still happen when people use online services. [31:34] That's why we believe that people under the age of 13 are not ready to communicate on Snapchat. [31:39] We strongly encourage parents to use the device-level parental controls on iPhone and Android. [31:44] We use them in our own household, and my wife approves every app that our 13-year-old downloads. [31:50] For parents who want more visibility and control, we built Family Center in Snapchat, where you can view who your teen is [31:55] talking to, review privacy settings, and set content limits. We have worked for years with members of the [32:01] Committee on Legislation like the Kids Online Safety Act and the Cooper Davis Act, which we are proud to support. [32:06] I want to encourage broader industry support for legislation protecting children online. [32:11] No legislation is perfect, but some rules of the road are better than none. [32:17] Much of the work that we do to protect people that use our service would not be possible without the support of [32:21] our partners across the industry, government, nonprofit organizations, NGOs, and in particular, [32:27] law enforcement and the first responders who have committed their lives to helping keep people safe. [32:31] I am profoundly grateful for the extraordinary efforts across our country and around the world [32:36] to prevent criminals from using online services to perpetrate their crimes. [32:40] I feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the opportunities that this country has afforded me [32:44] and my family. I feel a deep obligation to give back and to make a positive difference, [32:48] and I am grateful to be here today as part of this vitally important democratic process. [32:53] Members of the Committee, I give you my commitment that we will be part of the solution for online safety. [32:58] We will be honest about our shortcomings, and we will work continuously to improve. [33:03] Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions. [33:05] Thank you, Mr. Spiegel. Mr. Chu. [33:10] Chair Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and Members of the Committee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today. [33:18] My name is Sho Chu, and I am the CEO of TikTok, an online community of more than 1 billion people worldwide, [33:26] including well over 170 million Americans, who use our app every month to create, to share, and to discover. [33:35] Now, although the average age on TikTok in the U.S. is over 30, we recognize that special safeguards [33:41] are required to protect minors, and especially when it comes to combating all forms of CSAM. [33:46] As a father of three young children myself, I know that the issues that we're discussing today are horrific, [33:53] and the nightmare of every parent. [33:56] I am proud of our efforts to address the threats to young people online, [34:01] from a commitment to protecting them, to our industry-leading policies, use of innovative technology, [34:07] and significant ongoing investments in trust and safety to achieve this goal. [34:13] TikTok is vigilant about enforcing its 13 and up age policy, [34:18] and offers an experience for teens that is much more restrictive than you and I would have as adults. [34:25] We make careful product design choices to help make our app inhospitable to those seeking to harm teens. [34:33] Let me give you a few examples of long-standing policies that are unique to TikTok. [34:37] We didn't do them last week. [34:39] First, direct messaging is not available to any users under the age of 16. [34:46] Second, accounts for people under 16 are automatically set to private along with their content. [34:54] Furthermore, the content cannot be downloaded and will not be recommended to people they do not know. [35:01] Third, every teen under 18 has a screen time limit automatically set to 60 minutes. [35:09] And fourth, only people 18 and above are allowed to use our live stream feature. [35:15] I am proud to say that TikTok was among the first to empower parents to supervise their teens on our app [35:23] with our family pairing tools. [35:26] This includes setting screen time limits, filtering out content from the teens' feeds, amongst others. [35:32] We made these choices after consulting with doctors and safety experts who understand the unique stages [35:40] of teenage development to ensure that we have the appropriate safeguards to prevent harm and minimize risk. [35:48] Now, safety is one of the core priorities that defines TikTok under my leadership. [35:53] We currently have more than 40,000 trust and safety professionals working to protect our community globally. [36:00] And we expect to invest more than $2 billion in trust and safety efforts this year alone, [36:07] with a significant part of that in our U.S. operations. [36:12] Our robust community guidelines strictly prohibit content or behavior that puts teenagers at risk [36:19] of exploitation or other harm, and we vigorously enforce them. [36:23] Our technology moderates all content uploaded to our app to help quickly identify potential CSAM [36:32] and other material that breaks our rules. [36:34] It automatically removes the content or elevates it to our safety professionals for further review. [36:40] We also moderate direct messages for CSAM and related material, and use third-party tools like [36:48] PhotoDNA and take it down to combat CSAM to prevent content from being uploaded to our platform. [36:55] We continually meet with parents, teachers, and teens. [36:59] In fact, I sat down with a group just a few days ago. [37:03] We use their insight to strengthen the protections on our platform, [37:07] and we also work with leading groups like the Technology Coalition. [37:11] The steps that we're taking to protect teens are a critical part of our larger trust and safety work, [37:17] as we continue our voluntary and unprecedented efforts to build a safe and secure data environment for U.S. users, [37:25] ensuring that our platform remains free from outside manipulation, and implementing safeguards [37:32] on our content recommendation and moderation tools. [37:35] Keeping teens safe online requires a collaborative effort, as well as collective action. [37:41] We share the community's concern and commitment to protect young people online, [37:46] and we welcome the opportunity to work with you on legislation to achieve this goal. [37:50] Our commitment is ongoing and unwavering because there is no finish line when it comes to protecting teens. [37:57] Thank you for your time and consideration today. I'm happy to answer your questions. [38:02] Thanks, Mr. Ju. Ms. Iaccarino. [38:05] Chairman Durbin, Ranking Member Graham, and esteemed members of the committee, [38:14] thank you for the opportunity to discuss X's work to protect the safety of minors online. [38:48] Today's hearing is titled A Crisis, which calls for immediate action. [38:56] As a mother, this is personal, and I share the sense of urgency. [39:03] X is an entirely new company, an indispensable platform for the world and for democracy. [39:12] You have my personal commitment that X will be active and a part of this solution. [39:21] While I joined X only in June of 2023, I bring a history of working together with governments, [39:30] advocates, and NGOs to harness the power of media to protect people. [39:38] Before I joined, I was struck by the leadership steps this new company was taking to protect children. [39:47] X is not the platform of choice for children and teens. We do not have a line of business dedicated to [39:57] children. Children under the age of 13 are not allowed to open an account. Less than 1% of the U.S. users on [40:09] X are between the ages of 13 and 17. And those users are automatically set to a private default setting [40:19] and cannot accept a message from anyone they do not approve. [40:24] In the last 14 months, X has made material changes to protect minors. Our policy is clear. [40:36] X has zero tolerance towards any material that features or promotes child sexual exploitation. [40:46] My written testimony details X's extensive policies on content or actions that are prohibited and include [40:56] grooming, blackmail, and identifying alleged victims of CSE. We've also strengthened our enforcement [41:06] with more tools and technology to prevent those bad actors from distributing, searching for, [41:14] and engaging with CSE content. If CSE content is posted on X, we remove it. [41:22] And now we also remove any account that engages with CSE content, whether it is real or computer generated. [41:33] Last year, X suspended 12.4 million accounts for violating our CSE policies. This is up from 2.3 million [41:48] accounts that were removed by Twitter in 2022. In 2023, 850,000 reports were sent to NECMEC, including [42:02] our first ever auto-generated report. This is eight times more than was reported by Twitter in 2022. [42:12] We've changed our priorities. We've restructured our trust and safety teams to remain strong and agile. [42:22] We are building a trust and safety center of excellence in Austin, Texas, to bring more agents [42:31] in-house to accelerate our impact. We're applying to the Technology Coalition's Project Lantern to make [42:40] further industry-wide progress and impact. We've also opened up our algorithms for increased transparency. [42:51] We want America to lead in this solution. X commends the Senate for passing the Report Act, [42:59] and we support the Shield Act. It is time for a federal standard to criminalize the sharing of [43:08] non-consensual intimate material. We need to raise the standards across the entire internet ecosystem, [43:19] especially for those tech companies that are not here today and not stepping up. [43:26] X supports the Stop CSAM Act. The Kids Online Safety Act should continue to progress and we will [43:38] support the continuation to engage with it and ensure the protections of the freedom of speech. [43:47] There are two additional areas that require everyone's attention. First, as the daughter of a police [43:57] officer, law enforcement must have the critical resources to bring these bad offenders to justice. Second, [44:09] with artificial intelligence, offenders tactics will continue to sophisticate and evolve. Industry [44:17] collaboration is imperative here. X believes that the freedom of speech and platform safety can [44:27] and must co-exist. We agree that now is the time to act with urgency. Thank you. I look forward to [44:37] answering your questions. Thank you very much, Ms. Iaccarino. Now we're going to rounds of questions, [44:42] seven minutes each for the members as well. I would like to make note of your testimony, Ms. Iaccarino. [44:49] I believe you are the first social media company to publicly endorse the CSAM Act. It is our honor, [44:55] chairman. That is progress, my friends. Thank you for doing that. I'm still going to be asking some [45:02] probing questions, but let me get down to the bottom line here. I'm going to focus on my legislation on [45:09] CSAM. What it says is civil liability if you intentionally or knowingly host or store child sexual [45:20] abuse materials or make child sex abuse materials available. Secondly, intentionally or knowingly promote [45:30] or aid and abet a violation of child sexual exploitation laws. Is there anyone here who [45:36] believes you should not be held civilly liable for that type of conduct? Mr. Citron? Good morning, [45:46] Chair. You know, we very much believe that this content is disgusting and that there are many things [45:57] about the Stop CSAM bill that I think are very encouraging and we very much support adding more [46:02] resources for the cyber tip line and modernizing that along with giving more resources to NECMEC. [46:10] And we'll be very open to having conversations with you and your team to talk through the details [46:16] of the bill some more. I sure would like to do that because if you intentionally or knowingly [46:22] host or store CSAM, I think you ought to at least be civilly liable. I can't imagine anyone who would [46:28] disagree with that. Yeah, it's disgusting content. It certainly is. That's why we need you supporting [46:33] this legislation. Mr. Spiegel, I want to tell you, I listened closely to your testimony here and it's [46:48] never been a secret that Snapchat is used to send sexually explicit images. In 2013, [46:56] early in your company's history, you admitted this in an interview. Do you remember that interview? [47:02] Senator, I don't recall the specific interview. You said that when you were first trying to get [47:06] people on the app, you would, quote, go up to the people and be like, hey, you should try this [47:10] application. You can send disappearing photos. And they would say, oh, for sexting? Do you remember [47:16] that interview? Senator, when we first created the application, it was actually called Pickaboo, [47:21] and the idea was around disappearing images. The feedback we received from people using the app is [47:26] that they were actually using it to communicate. So we changed the name of the application to Snapchat, [47:30] and we found that people were using it to talk visually. As early as 2017, law enforcement [47:36] identified Snapchat as the pedophile's go-to sexual exploitation tool. The case of a 12-year-old girl [47:43] identified in court only as LW shows the danger. Over two and a half years, a predator sexually groomed her, [47:51] sending her sexually explicit images and videos over Snapchat. The man admitted that he only used Snapchat [47:58] with LW and not any other platforms because he, quote, knew that chats would go away. Did you [48:04] or ever and everyone else at Snap really fail to see that the platform was the perfect tool for sexual [48:10] predators? Senator, that behavior is disgusting and reprehensible. We provide in-app reporting tools [48:17] so that people who are being harassed or who, you know, have been shared inappropriate sexual content [48:21] can report it. In the case of harassment or sexual content, we typically respond to those reports [48:26] within 15 minutes so that we can provide help. When LW, the victim, sued Snapchat, her case was [48:32] dismissed under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. Do you have any doubt that had Snap [48:38] faced the prospect of civil liability for facilitating sexual exploitation, the company would have [48:44] implemented even better safeguards? Senator, we already work extensively to proactively detect [48:51] this type of behavior. We make it very difficult for predators to find teens on Snapchat. There are no [48:56] public friends lists, no public profile photos. When we recommend friends for teens, we make sure [49:04] that they have several mutual friends in common before making that recommendation. We believe those [49:08] safeguards are important to preventing predators from misusing our platform. Mr. Citroen, according to [49:14] Discord's website, it takes a, quote, proactive and automated approach to safety only on servers with [49:20] more than 200 members. Smaller servers rely on server owners and community moderators to define and enforce [49:28] behavior. So how do you defend an approach to safety that relies on groups of fewer than 200 sexual [49:35] predators to report themselves for things like grooming, trading a CSAM, or sextortion? [49:40] Mr. Chair, our goal is to get all of that content off of our platform and ideally prevent it from [49:49] showing up in the first place or from people engaging in these kind of horrific activities. [49:54] We deploy a wide array of techniques that work across every surface on our, on Discord. I mentioned [50:02] we recently launched something called Teen Safety Assist, which works everywhere and it's on by default [50:06] for teen users. That kind of acts like a buddy that lets them know if they are in a situation or talking [50:13] with someone that may be inappropriate so they can report that to to us and block that user. So we... [50:19] Mr. Citroen, if that were working, we wouldn't be here today. [50:22] Mr. Chair, there, this is an ongoing challenge for all of us. That is why we're here today. [50:28] But we, we do have 15% of our company is focused on trust and safety, of which this is one of our [50:35] top issues. That's more people than we have working on marketing and promoting the company. So we take [50:39] these issues very seriously, but we know it's an ongoing challenge and I look forward to working with [50:44] you and collaborating with our, our tech peers and the nonprofits to, to improve our approach. [50:48] I certainly hope so. Mr. Chu, your organization and business is one of the more popular ones among [50:58] children. Can you explain to us what you are doing particularly and whether you've seen any evidence [51:04] of CSAM in your business? Yes, Senator. We have a strong commitment to invest in trust and safety. [51:13] And as I said in my opening statement, I intend to invest more than two billion dollars in trust and [51:18] safety this year alone. We have 40,000 safety professionals, you know, working on this topic. [51:23] We have built a specialized child safety team to help us identify specialized issues, horrific issues [51:30] like material, like the ones you have mentioned. If we identify any on our platform and we proactively [51:37] do do detection, we will remove it and we will report them to NICMEC and other authorities. [51:44] Why is it TikTok allowing children to be exploited into performing commercialized sex acts? [51:49] Senator, I respectfully disagree with that characterization. Our live streaming product [51:55] is not for anyone below the age of 18. We have taken action to, to identify anyone who violates that [52:02] and we remove them from the, from using that service. At this point, I'm going to turn to my [52:09] ranking member, Senator Graham. Thank you. Mr. Citrone, you said we need to start a discussion. [52:19] Be honest with you, we've been having this discussion for a very long time. [52:23] Uh, we need to get a result, not a discussion. Do you agree with that? [52:29] Um, ranking member, I, I agree this is, um, an issue that we've also been very focused on since [52:34] we started our company in 2015, but this is the first time we've been. [52:37] Are you familiar with the Earn It Act, authored by myself and Senator Blumenthal? [52:41] Um, a little bit, yes. Okay, do you support that? [52:45] Um, we, um... Like yes or no? [52:50] Uh, we, uh, we're not prepared to support it today, but we believe the section... [52:53] Okay, so do you support the CSAM Act? [52:54] Um, the Stop CSAM Act, um, we are not prepared to support today, but we think they're... [52:58] Okay, do you support the Shield Act? [53:01] We, uh, we believe that the Cyber Tip Line... [53:03] Do you support it, yes or no? [53:05] Uh, we, we believe that the Cyber Tip Line and NECMAC... [53:08] I'll take that to be no. The Project Safe Childhood Act, do you support it? [53:12] Um, we, we believe that... [53:15] I'll take that to be no. The Report Act, do you support it? [53:19] Um, Ranking Member Graham, we very much look forward to having conversations with you and your team. [53:23] Well, I look forward to passing a bill that will solve the problem. [53:27] Do you support removing Section 230 liability protections for social media companies? [53:31] Um, I believe that Section 230, um, is, is, needs to be updated. It's a very old law. [53:37] Do you, do you support repealing it so people can sue if they believe they're harmed? [53:42] Um, I think that Section 230, as written, um, while it has many downsides... [53:46] Thank you, thank you. ...has enabled innovation on the internet, which I think has largely been... [53:49] Thank you very much. So here you are. You got, if you're waiting on these guys to [53:53] solve the problem, we're gonna die waiting. Uh, Mr. Zuckerberg. [53:59] Mr. Uh, try to be respectful here. Um, the representative from South Carolina, [54:13] Mr. Guffey's son, uh, got caught up in a sex extortion ring in Nigeria using Instagram. [54:20] Uh, he was, uh, shaking down, paid money, that weren't enough, and he killed himself, uh, using Instagram. [54:29] What would you like to say to him? [54:31] That's terrible. I mean, no one should have to go through something like that. [54:37] Do you think he should be allowed to sue you? [54:39] Um, I, I think that they can sue us. [54:46] Well, I think you should, and then he can't. [54:48] So, uh, bottom line here, folks, is that this committee is done with talking. [54:56] We passed five bills unanimously that, in their different ways, and look at who did this. [55:04] Graham Blumenthal, Durbin Hawley, Klobuchar, Cornyn, Cornyn, Klobuchar, Blackburn, and Ossoff. [55:13] I mean, we've found common ground here that just is astonishing. And we've had hearing after hearing, [55:20] Mr. Chairman. And the bottom line is, I've come to conclude, uh, gentlemen, that you're not going [55:27] to support any of this. Linda? Um, how do you say your last name? [55:30] Yeah, Carino. Uh, do you support the Earn It Act? [55:36] Uh, we strongly support the collaboration to raise industry practices to prevent CSAM. [55:46] No, no, no. Do you support the Earn It Act? [55:49] Do you support the Earn It Act? In English, do you support the Earn It Act? Yes or no? [55:53] We don't need doubles. We look forward to supporting and [55:55] continue our conversations. Okay, so I'll take that as no. [55:57] As you can see. But you have, but you have, you have taken, [56:01] the reason the Earn It Act is important, you can actually lose your liability protections [56:05] when children are exploited and you didn't use best business practices. [56:10] See, the Earn It Act means you have to earn liability production. [56:13] You're given it no matter what you do. So to the members of this committee, [56:19] it is now time to make sure that the people who are holding up the signs [56:23] can sue on behalf of their loved ones. Nothing will change until the courtroom door [56:29] is open to victims of social media. Two billion dollars, Mr. Chu. How much, [56:35] what percentage is that of what you made last year? [56:40] Senator, it's a significant and increasing investment. [56:42] As a private company, we're not sharing our financials. [56:44] You pay taxes. I mean, two percent is what percent of your revenue? [56:49] Senator, we're not ready to share our financials in public. [56:52] Well, I just think two billion dollars sounds a lot unless you make a hundred billion. [56:56] So the point is, you know, when you tell us you're going to spend two billion dollars, [57:00] great. But how much do you make? You know, it's all about eyeballs. [57:04] Well, our goal is to get eyeballs on you. And it's just not about children. [57:07] I mean, the damage being done. Do you, are you, do you realize, [57:12] Mr. Chu, that your TikTok representative in Israel resigned yesterday? [57:20] Yes, I am aware. [57:21] Okay. And he said, I resigned from TikTok. We're living in a time in which our existence [57:27] as Jews in Israel and Israel is under attack and in danger. Multiple screenshots taken from [57:34] TikTok's internal employee chat platform known as Lark show how TikTok's trust and safety officers [57:42] celebrate the barbaric acts of Hamas and other Iranian-backed terror groups, including the Houthis [57:47] in Yemen. Senator, I need to make it very clear that pro-Hamas content and hate speech [57:54] is not allowed on our platform. Why did he resign? Why did he quit? [57:59] Senator, we also do not allow any hateful behavior. Do you know why he quit? [58:02] Do you know why he quit? We do not allow this. We will investigate such claims. [58:05] My question is, he quit. I'm sure he had a good job. He gave up a good job because thinks your [58:11] platform is being used to help people who want to destroy the jurisdiction. And I'm not saying you want that. [58:17] Mr. Zuckerberg, I'm not saying you want as an individual any of the harms. I am saying that the [58:23] products you have created with all the upside have a dark side. Mr. Citron, I am tired of talking. I'm [58:30] tired of having discussions. We all know the answer here. And here's the ultimate answer. [58:36] Stand behind your product. Go to the American courtroom and defend your practices. Open up the [58:41] courthouse door. Until you do that, nothing will change. Until these people can be sued for the [58:47] damage they're doing. It is all talk. I'm a Republican who believes in free enterprise. [58:53] But I also believe that every American who's been wronged has to have somebody to go to to complain. [59:00] There's no commission to go to that can punish you. There's not one law in the book because you [59:06] oppose everything we do. And you can't be sued. That has to stop, folks. How do you expect the people in [59:14] the audience to believe that we're going to help their families if we don't have some system or a [59:20] combination of systems to hold these people accountable? Because for all the upside, the dark [59:26] side is too great to live with. We do not need to live this way as Americans. Thank you, Senator Graham. [59:35] Senator Klobuchar is next. She's been quite a leader on the subject for quite a long time, [59:42] on the Shield Act and with Senator Cornyn on the revenge porn legislation. Senator Klobuchar. [59:48] Thank you very much, Chairman Durbin. And thank you, [59:53] Ranking Member Graham, for those words. I couldn't agree more for too long. We have been seeing the [1:00:01] social media companies turn a blind eye when kids have joined these platforms in record numbers. [1:00:09] They have used algorithms that push harmful content because that content got popular. They provided a [1:00:18] venue, maybe not knowingly at first, but for dealers to sell deadly drugs like fentanyl. Our own head of [1:00:29] our Drug Enforcement Administration has said they basically been captured by the cartels in Mexico [1:00:36] and in China. So I strongly support, first of all, the stop CSAM bill. I agree with Senator Graham that [1:00:45] nothing is going to change unless we open up the courtroom doors. I think the time for all of this [1:00:51] immunity is done because I think money talks even stronger than we talk up here. Two of the five bills, [1:00:58] as noted, are my bills with Senator Cornyn. One has actually passed through the Senate but is waiting [1:01:05] action in the House. But the other one is the Shield Act and I do support, appreciate those supportive acts [1:01:11] of that bill. This is about revenge porn. The FBI director testified before this committee. There's been over [1:01:19] 20 suicides of kids attributed to online revenge porn in just the last year. But for those parents out [1:01:30] there and those families, this is for them about their own child. But it's also about making sure [1:01:37] this doesn't happen to other children. I know because I've talked to these parents. Parents like [1:01:43] Bridgette Noring from Hastings, Minnesota, who is out there today. Bridgette lost her teenage son [1:01:50] after he took a fentanyl lace pill that he purchased on the internet. Amy Neville is also here. [1:01:57] her son Alexander was only 14 when he died after taking a pill he didn't know was actually fentanyl. [1:02:12] We're starting a law enforcement campaign. One pill kills in Minnesota, going to the schools with the [1:02:17] sheriffs and law enforcement. But the way to stop it is, yes, at the border and at the points of entry, [1:02:24] we know that 30 percent, some of the people that are getting the fentanyl are getting it off the [1:02:30] platforms. Meanwhile, social media platforms generated $11 billion in revenue in 2022 from [1:02:37] advertising directed at children and teenagers, including nearly $2 billion in ad profits derived [1:02:44] from users age 12 and under. When a Boeing plane lost a door in mid-flight several weeks ago, nobody [1:02:56] questioned the decision to ground a fleet of over 700 planes. So why aren't we taking the same type of [1:03:05] decisive action on the danger of these platforms when we know these kids are dying? We have bills that have [1:03:15] passed through this incredibly diverse committee when it comes to our political views that have passed [1:03:23] through this committee and they should go to the floor. We should do something finally about liability [1:03:29] and then we should turn to some of the other issues that a number of us have worked on when it comes to [1:03:35] the charges for app stores and when it comes to some of the monopoly behavior and the self-preferencing. [1:03:44] But I'm going to stick with this today. Facts. One-third of fentanyl cases investigated over five months had [1:03:51] direct ties to social media. That's from the DEA. Facts. Between 2012 and 2022, cyber tip line reports of [1:03:59] online child sexual exploitation increased from 415,000 to more than 32 million. And as I noted, [1:04:09] at least 20 victims committed suicide in sextortation cases. So I'm going to start with that with you, [1:04:17] Mr. Citron. My bill with Senator Cornyn, the SHIELD Act includes a threat provision that would help [1:04:23] protection and accountability for those that are threatened by these predators. Young kids get a [1:04:30] picture, send it in, think they got a new girlfriend or a new boyfriend, ruins their life or they think it's [1:04:36] going to be ruined and they kill themselves. So could you tell me why you're not supporting the [1:04:41] SHIELD Act? Senator, we think it's very important that teens have a safe experience on our platforms. [1:04:50] I think that the portion to strengthen law enforcement's ability to investigate crimes [1:04:57] against children and hold bad actors accountable is incredible. So are you holding open that you may [1:05:01] support it? We very much would like to have conversations with you. We're open to discussing further. [1:05:06] We do welcome legislation and regulation. You know, this is a very important issue for our country. [1:05:11] And, you know, we've been prioritizing safety for teens. Thank you. I just, I'm much more interested [1:05:16] in if you support it because there's been so much talk at these hearings and popcorn throwing and the [1:05:20] like. And I just want to get this stuff done. I'm so tired of this. It's been 28 years, what, since the [1:05:25] internet, we haven't passed any of these bills because everyone's double talk, double talk. It's time to [1:05:30] actually pass them. And the reason they haven't passed is because of the power of your company. So let's be [1:05:35] really, really clear about that. So what you say matters, your words matter. [1:05:42] Mr. Chu, I'm a co-sponsor of Chair Durman's Stop CSAM Act of 2023, along with Senator Hawley, [1:05:51] who's the lead Republican, I believe, which, among other things, empowers victims by making it easier [1:05:56] for them to ask tech companies to remove the material and related imagery from their platforms. [1:06:03] Why would you not support this bill? Senator, we largely support it. I think the spirit of it is [1:06:09] very aligned with what we want to do. There are questions about implementation that I think [1:06:14] companies like us and some other groups have, and we look forward to asking those. And of course, [1:06:18] if this legislation is law, we will comply. Mr. Spiegel, I know we talked ahead of time. I do [1:06:26] appreciate your company's support for the Cooper Davis Act, which will finally, it's a bill with [1:06:32] Senator Shaheen and Marshall, which will allow law enforcement to do more when it comes to fentanyl. [1:06:38] I think you know what a problem this is. Devin Noring, teenager from Hastings, [1:06:42] I mentioned his mom here, suffered dental pain and migraine. So he bought what he thought was a [1:06:48] Percocet over snap. But instead, he bought a counterfeit drug laced with a lethal dose of [1:06:54] fentanyl. As his mom, who's here with us today, said, all of the hopes and dreams we as parents [1:07:00] had for Devin were erased in the blink of an eye, and no mom should have to bury their kid. Talk about [1:07:07] why you support the Cooper Davis Act. Senator, thank you. We strongly support the Cooper Davis Act, [1:07:14] and we believe it will help DEA go after the cartels and get more dealers off the streets to [1:07:18] save more lives. Okay. Are there others that support that bill? No? Okay. Last, Mr. Zuckerberg. [1:07:28] In 2021, the Wall Street Journal reported on internal meta-research documents asking, [1:07:35] why do we care about tweens? These were internal documents. I'm quoting the documents, [1:07:40] and answering its own question by citing Metta internal emails. They are a valuable but untapped [1:07:48] audience. At a commerce hearing, I'm also on that committee, I asked Metta's head of global safety, [1:07:54] why children age 10 to 12 are so valuable to Metta. She responded, we do not knowingly attempt to [1:08:01] recruit people who aren't old enough to use our apps. Well, when the 42 state attorneys general, [1:08:07] Democrat and Republican brought their case, they said this statement was inaccurate. A few examples. [1:08:14] In 2021, she received an email, Ms. Davis, from Instagram's research director saying that Instagram [1:08:21] is investing in experiencing targeting young age roughly 10 to 12. In a February 2021 instant message, [1:08:30] one of your employees wrote that Metta is working to recruit Gen Alpha before they reach teenage years. [1:08:37] A 2018 email that circulated inside Metta says that you were briefed that children under 13 will be [1:08:44] critical for increasing the rate of acquisition when users turn 13. Explain that with what I heard at that [1:08:55] testimony at the commerce hearing, that they weren't being targeted. And I just ask again, as the other [1:09:01] witnesses were asked, why your company does not support the Stop CSAM Act or the Shield Act? [1:09:08] Sure, Senator. I'm happy to talk to both of those. We had discussions internally about whether we should [1:09:15] build a kids version of Instagram, like the kids versions of YouTube and other services. [1:09:23] We haven't actually moved forward with that, and we currently have no plans to do so. So I can't speak [1:09:28] directly to the exact emails that you cited, but it sounds to me like they were deliberations around a [1:09:35] project that people internally thought was important and we didn't end up moving forward with. [1:09:41] Okay, and the bills, what are you going to say about the two bills? [1:09:44] Sure. So overall, I mean, my position on the bills is I agree with the goal of all of them. There are most [1:09:51] things that I agree with within them. There are specific things that I would probably do differently. [1:09:55] We also have our own legislative proposal for what we think would be most effective in terms of helping the [1:10:02] the internet in the various companies give parents control over the experience. So I'm happy to go [1:10:09] into the detail on any one of them, but ultimately, I mean, I think that this is... [1:10:12] I just, again, well, I think these parents will tell you that that the stuff hasn't worked [1:10:17] to just give parents control. They don't know what to do. It's very, very hard, and that's why [1:10:21] we are coming up with other solutions that we think are much more helpful to law enforcement, [1:10:27] but also this idea of finally getting something going on liability. Because I just believe with [1:10:32] all the resources you have, that you actually would be able to do more than you're doing, [1:10:36] or these parents wouldn't be sitting behind you right now in this Senate hearing room. [1:10:42] Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. Senator Klobuchar- Can I speak to that? [1:10:44] Or do you want me to come back later? Please, go ahead. [1:10:47] I don't think that parents should have to upload an ID or prove that they're the parent of a, [1:10:53] of a child in every single app that their children use. I think the right place to do this, [1:10:58] and a place where it would be actually very easy for it to work, is within the app stores themselves. [1:11:03] Where my understanding is Apple and Google already, or at least Apple, already requires parental consent [1:11:09] when a child does a payment with an app, so it should be pretty trivial to pass a law that requires them [1:11:16] to make it so that parents have control any time a child downloads an app, and offers consent of that. [1:11:23] And the research that we've done shows that the vast majority of parents want that, [1:11:29] and I think that that's the type of legislation, in addition to some of the other ideas that you all have, [1:11:34] that would make this a lot easier for parents. [1:11:36] Just to be clear, I remember one mom telling me, with all these things she could maybe do that she can't figure out, [1:11:41] it's like a faucet overflowing in a sink, and she's out there with a mop, while her kids are getting addicted to more and more different apps, [1:11:48] and being exposed to material. We've got to make this simpler for parents, so they can protect their kids, [1:11:54] and I just don't think this is going to be the way to do it. I think the answer is what Senator Graham has been talking about, [1:11:59] which is opening up the halls of the courtroom, so that puts it on you guys to protect these parents, [1:12:05] and protect these kids, and then also to pass some of these laws that makes it easier for law enforcement. [1:12:11] Thank you, Senator Klobuchar. We're going to try to stick to the seven-minute rule. It didn't work very well, [1:12:18] but I'll try to give additional time on the other side as well. Senator Cornyn? [1:12:24] There's no question that your platforms are very popular, but we know that while here in the United [1:12:33] States we have an open society and free exchange of information, that there are authoritarian governments, [1:12:43] there are criminals who will use your platforms for the sale of drugs, for sex, for extortion, [1:12:51] and the like. And Mr. Chu, I think your company is unique among the ones represented here today because [1:13:02] of its ownership by ByteDance, a Chinese company. And I know there have been some steps that you've taken [1:13:12] to wall off the data collected here in the United States, but the fact of the matter is that under [1:13:19] Chinese law and Chinese national intelligence laws, all information accumulated by companies in the [1:13:27] People's Republic of China are required to be shared with the Chinese intelligence services. ByteDance, [1:13:38] the initial release of TikTok, I understand, was 2016. These efforts that you made with Oracle under the [1:13:45] so-called Project Texas to wall off the U.S. data was in 2021 and apparently allegedly fully walled off in [1:13:53] March of 23. What happened to all of the data that TikTok collected before that? Senator, thank you. [1:14:02] From American users. Understand. TikTok is owned by ByteDance, which is majority owned by global investors, [1:14:09] and we have three Americans on the board out of five. You are right in pointing out that over the last [1:14:15] three years, we have spent billions of dollars building our Project Texas, which is a plan that's [1:14:21] unprecedented in our industry, the wall off, fire wall off, protected U.S. data from the rest of our [1:14:25] staff. And I'm asking about all of the data that you collected prior to that event. Yes, Senator. [1:14:33] We have started a data deletion plan. I talked about this a year ago. We have finished the first phase [1:14:38] of data deletion through our data centers outside of the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, and we're beginning [1:14:43] phase two where we will not only delete from the data centers, we will hire a third party to verify that [1:14:48] work, and then we will go into, you know, for example, employees working laptops to delete that as well. [1:14:55] Was all of the data collected by TikTok prior to Project Texas shared with the Chinese government [1:15:03] pursuant to the national intelligence laws of that country? Senator, we have not been asked for any data [1:15:09] by the Chinese government, and we have never provided it. Your company is unique, again, among [1:15:19] the ones represented here today because you're currently undergoing review by the Committee on [1:15:24] Foreign Investment in the United States. Is that correct? Senator, yes, there are ongoing discussions, [1:15:30] and a lot of our Project Texas work is informed by the discussions with many agencies under the CFIUS [1:15:38] umbrella. Well, CFIUS is designed specifically to review foreign investments in the United States for [1:15:44] national security risks, correct? Yes, I believe so. And your company is currently being reviewed [1:15:51] by this interagency committee of the at the Treasury Department for potential national security risks. [1:16:00] Senator, this review is on a acquisition of Musical.ly, which is an acquisition that was done [1:16:07] many years ago. I mean, is this a casual conversation or are you actually providing information to the Treasury [1:16:14] Department about how your platform operates for evaluating a potential national security risk? [1:16:23] Senator, it's been many years across two administrations and a lot of discussions around how our plans are, [1:16:30] how our systems work. We have a lot of robust discussions about a lot of detail. [1:16:38] Sixty-three percent of teens, I understand, use TikTok. Does that sound about right? [1:16:43] Senator, I cannot verify that. We know we are popular amongst many age groups. The average age in the [1:16:51] U.S. today for our user base is over 30, but we're aware we are popular. And you reside in Singapore with [1:16:58] your family, correct? Yes, I reside in Singapore and I work here in the United States as well. And do your [1:17:04] children have access to TikTok in Singapore? Senator, if they lived in the United States, I would give them [1:17:11] access to our under 13 experience. My children are below the age of 13. My question is, in Singapore, [1:17:17] do they have access to TikTok or is that restricted by domestic law? We do not have an under 13 experience [1:17:25] in Singapore. We have that in the United States. Because we were deemed a mixed audience app and [1:17:31] we created under 13 experience in response to that. A Wall Street Journal article published yesterday [1:17:38] directly contradicts what your company has stated publicly. According to the journal, employees [1:17:45] under the project Texas say that U.S. user data, including user emails, birth date, IP addresses, [1:17:53] continue to be shared with ByteDance staff, again owned by a Chinese company. Do you dispute that? [1:18:02] Yes, Senator. There are many things about that article that are inaccurate. Where it gets right is that [1:18:07] this is a voluntary project that we built. We spent billions of dollars. There are thousands of [1:18:13] employees involved and it's very difficult because it's unprecedented. Why is it important that the data [1:18:22] collected from U.S. users be stored in the United States? Senator, this was a project we built in response [1:18:31] to some of the concerns that were raised by members of this committee and others. And that was because of [1:18:36] concerns that the data that was stored in China could be accessed by the Chinese Communist Party [1:18:45] according to the national intelligence laws, correct? Senator, we are not the only company that does [1:18:51] business, you know, that has Chinese employees, for example. We're not even the only company in this [1:18:56] room that hires Chinese nationals. But in order to address some of these concerns, we have moved the data [1:19:01] into the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. We built a 2,000 person team to oversee the management of the [1:19:06] data based here. We walled it off from the rest of the organization and then we open it up to third [1:19:12] parties like Oracle and we will onboard others to give them third party validation. This is [1:19:18] unprecedented access. I think we are unique in taking even more steps to protect user data in the United [1:19:23] States. Well, you've disputed the Wall Street Journal story published yesterday. Are you going to [1:19:29] conduct any sort of investigation to see whether there's any truth to the allegations made in the [1:19:36] article or are you just going to dismiss them outright? We're not going to dismiss them. So we [1:19:40] have ongoing security inspections, not only by our own personnel, but also by third parties to ensure [1:19:46] that the system is rigorous and robust. No system that any one of us can build is perfect. But what we [1:19:52] need to do is to make sure that we are always improving it and testing it against bad people who may [1:19:57] try to bypass it. And if anyone breaks our policies within our organization, we will take disciplinary action [1:20:02] against them. Thanks, Senator Cornyn. Senator Coons. Thank you, Chairman Durbin. First, I'd like to start [1:20:13] by thanking all the families that are here today. All the parents who are here because of a child they have [1:20:19] lost. All the families that are here because you want us to see you and to know your concern. You have [1:20:27] contacted each of us in our offices expressing your grief, your loss, your passion and your concern. [1:20:33] And the audience that is watching can't see this. They can see you, the witnesses from the companies. [1:20:39] But this room is packed as far as the eye can see. And when this hearing began, many of you picked up [1:20:44] and held pictures of your beloved and lost children. I benefit from and participate in social media, [1:20:53] as do many members of the committee and our nation and our world. There are now a majority of people on [1:20:59] earth participating in and in many ways benefiting from one of the platforms you have launched or [1:21:05] you lead or you represent. And we have to recognize there are some real positives to social media. It [1:21:11] has transformed modern life. But it has also had huge impacts on families, on children, on nations. [1:21:19] And there's a whole series of bills championed by members of this committee that tries to deal with [1:21:25] the trafficking in illicit drugs, the trafficking in illicit child sexual material, the things that [1:21:34] are facilitated on your platforms that may lead to self-harm or suicide. So we've heard from several [1:21:42] of the leaders on this committee, the chair and ranking and very talented and experienced senators, [1:21:47] the frame that we are looking at this is consumer protection. When there is some new technology, [1:21:55] we put in place regulations to make sure that it is not overly harmful. As my friend, [1:22:00] Senator Klobuchar pointed out, one door flew off of one plane. No one was hurt. And yet the entire [1:22:06] Boeing fleet of that type of plane was grounded. And a federal fit for purpose agency did an immediate [1:22:13] safety review. I'm going to point not to the other pieces of legislation that I think are urgent that we [1:22:20] take up and pass, but to the core question of transparency. If you're a company manufacturing [1:22:27] a product that is allegedly addictive and harmful, one of the first things we look to is safety [1:22:33] information. We try to give our constituents, our consumers, warnings, labels that help them understand [1:22:42] what are the consequences of this product and how to use it safely or not. As you've heard pointedly from [1:22:48] some of my colleagues, if you sell an addictive, defective, harmful product in this country in [1:22:54] violation of regulations and warnings, you get sued. And what is distinct about platforms as an industry [1:23:01] is most of the families who are here are here because there were not sufficient warnings and they [1:23:07] cannot effectively sue you. So let me dig in for a moment if I can, because each of your companies [1:23:15] voluntarily discloses information about the content and the safety investments you make and the actions [1:23:22] you take. There was a question pressed, I think it was by Senator Graham earlier, about TikTok. I believe, [1:23:28] Mr. Chu, you said invest $2 billion in safety. My background memo said your global revenue is $85 billion. [1:23:35] Mr. Zuckerberg, my background memo says you're investing $5 billion in safety and meta and your annual revenue is on the [1:23:41] order of $116 billion. So what matters, you can hear some expressions from the parents in the audience, [1:23:49] what matters is the relative numbers and the absolute numbers. Your data folks, if there's anybody in this [1:23:55] world who understand data, it's you guys. So I want to walk through whether or not these voluntary measures [1:24:02] of disclosure of content and harm are sufficient, because I would argue we're here because they're not. [1:24:10] Without better information, how can policymakers know whether the protections you've testified about, [1:24:18] the new initiatives, the starting programs, the monitoring and the takedowns, are actually working? [1:24:24] How can we understand meaningfully how big these problems are without measuring and reporting data? [1:24:31] Mr. Zuckerberg, your testimony referenced a National Academy of Sciences study that said, [1:24:36] at the population level, there is no proof about harm for mental health. Well, it may not be at the [1:24:43] population level, but I'm looking at a room full of hundreds of parents who have lost children. [1:24:48] And our challenge is to take the data and to make good decisions about protecting families and children [1:24:55] from harm. So let me ask about what your companies do or don't report. And I'm going to particularly focus [1:25:03] on your content policies around self-harm and suicide. And I'm just going to ask a series of yes or no [1:25:10] questions. And what I'm getting at is, do you disclose enough? Mr. Zuckerberg, from your policies [1:25:17] prohibiting content about suicide or self-harm, do you report an estimate of the total amount of content, [1:25:25] not a percentage of the overall, not a prevalence number, but the total amount of content on your [1:25:31] platform that violates this policy? And do you report the total number of views that self-harm or [1:25:38] suicide-promoting content that violates this policy gets on your platform? Yes, Senator, we pioneered [1:25:48] quarterly reporting on our community standards enforcement across all these different categories [1:25:52] of harmful content. We focus on prevalence, which you mentioned, because what we're focused on is [1:25:59] what percent of the content that we take down? So Mr. Zuckerberg, I'm going to interrupt you and [1:26:04] you're very talented. I have very little time left. I'm trying to get an answer to a question, [1:26:10] not as a percentage of the total, because remember, it's a huge number. So the percentage is small. [1:26:15] But do you report the actual amount of content and the amount of views self-harm content received? [1:26:22] No, I believe we focus on prevalence. Correct. You don't. Ms. Yaccarina, [1:26:27] yes or no? You report it or you don't? Senator, as a reminder, we have less than 1% [1:26:33] of our users that are between the ages of 13 and 17. Do you report the absolute number of how many [1:26:40] images and how often views? We report the number of posts and accounts that we've taken down in 2023. [1:26:45] Yes. We've taken over almost a million posts down in regards to mental health and self-harm. [1:26:51] Mr. Chu, do you disclose the number of appearances of these types of content [1:26:57] and how many are viewed before they're taken down? Senator, we disclose the number we take down [1:27:02] based on each category of violation and how many of that were taken down proactively before it was [1:27:08] reported. Mr. Spiegel? Yes, Senator, we do disclose. Mr. Citron? Yes, we do. So I've got three more [1:27:17] questions I'd love to walk through if I had unlimited time. I will submit them for the record. The larger point [1:27:23] is that platforms need to hand over more content about how the algorithms work, what the content [1:27:31] does, and what the consequences are. Not at the aggregate, not at the population level, but the [1:27:37] actual numbers of cases so we can understand the content. In closing, Mr. Chairman, I have a bipartisan [1:27:44] bill, the Platform Accountability and Transparency Act, co-sponsored by Senators Cornyn, [1:27:50] Klobuchar, Blumenthal on this committee and Senator Cassidy and others. It's in front of the Commerce [1:27:55] Committee, not this committee. But it would set reasonable standards for disclosure and transparency [1:28:01] to make sure that we're doing our jobs based on data. Yes, there's a lot of emotion in this field, [1:28:07] understandably. But if we're going to legislate responsibly about the management of the content [1:28:13] on your platforms, we need to have better data. Is there any one of you willing to say now [1:28:20] that you support this bill? Mr. Chairman, let the record reflect a yawning silence from the [1:28:28] leaders of the social media platforms. Thank you. Thanks, Senator Coons. We're on one of two, [1:28:33] the first of two roll calls. And so please understand if some of the members leave and come back, [1:28:39] it's no disrespect. They're doing their job. Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Tragically, [1:28:47] survivors of sexual abuse are often repeatedly victimized and re-victimized over and over and [1:28:56] over again by having non-consensual images of themselves on social media platforms. [1:29:04] There's a NCMEC study that pointed out there was one instance of CSAM that reappeared more than 490,000 [1:29:16] times after it had been reported, after it had been reported. So we need tools in order to deal [1:29:23] with this. We need, frankly, laws in order to mandate standards so that this doesn't happen, [1:29:30] so that we have a systematic way of getting rid of this stuff. Because there is literally no plausible [1:29:37] justification, no way of defending this. One tool, one that I think would be particularly effective, [1:29:45] is a bill that I'll be introducing later today. And I invite all my committee members to join me. [1:29:51] It's called the Protect Act. The Protect Act would, in pertinent part, require websites to verify age [1:29:59] and verify that they've received consent of any and all individuals appearing on their site in [1:30:05] pornographic images. And it would also require platforms to have meaningful processes for an individual [1:30:12] seeking to have images of him or herself removed in a timely manner. Ms. Iaccarino, based on your [1:30:20] understanding of existing law, what might it take for a person to have those images removed, say from X? [1:30:29] Senator Lee, thank you. It sounds like what you're going to introduce into law in terms of ecosystem-wide and [1:30:38] user consent sounds exactly like part of the philosophy of why we're supporting the SHIELD Act. And no one [1:30:47] should have to endure non-consensual images being shared online. [1:30:51] Mr. Yep. And without that, without laws in place, and it's fantastic any time a company, [1:30:57] as you've described with yours, wants to take those steps, it's very helpful. It can take [1:31:05] a lot longer than it should, and sometimes it does, to the point where somebody had images [1:31:12] shared 490,000 times after it was reported to the authorities, and that's deeply concerning. [1:31:21] But yes, the Protect Act would work in tandem with, it's a good compliment to the SHIELD Act. [1:31:28] Mr. Zuckerberg, let's turn to you next. As you know, I feel strongly about privacy and believe that one of [1:31:35] the best protections of foreign individuals' privacy online involves end-to-end encryption. [1:31:43] We also know that a great deal of grooming and sharing of CSAM happens to occur on end-to-end encrypted [1:31:52] systems. Tell me, does Meta allow juvenile accounts on its platforms to use encrypted messaging services [1:31:59] within those apps? Sorry, Senator, what do you mean, juvenile? [1:32:03] Under age, people under 18? Under 18. We allow people under the age of 18 to use WhatsApp, and [1:32:11] and we do allow that to be encrypted, yes. Do you have a bottom level age at which they're not allowed [1:32:16] to use it? Yeah, I don't think we allow people under the age of 13. What about you, Mr. Citroen? On [1:32:24] Discord, do you allow kids to have accounts to access encrypted messaging? Discord is not allowed to be used by [1:32:34] children under the age of 13, and we do not use end-to-end encryption for text messages. You know, [1:32:38] we believe that it's very important to be able to respond to well-formed law enforcement requests, [1:32:45] and we're also working on proactively building technology. We're working with a non-profit called [1:32:50] Thorne to build a grooming classifier so that our teen safety assist feature can actually identify [1:32:54] these conversations, if they might be happening, so we can intervene and give those teens tools to get [1:33:00] out of that situation or potentially even report those conversations and those people to law [1:33:04] enforcement. And then encryption, as much as it can prove useful elsewhere, it can be harmful, [1:33:10] especially if you're on a site where you know children are being groomed and exploited. If you allow [1:33:16] children onto an end-to-end encryption-enabled app, that can prove problematic. Now, let's go back to you for a [1:33:25] moment, Mr. Zuckerberg. Instagram recently announced that it's going to restrict all teenagers from [1:33:31] access to eating disorder material, suicidal ideation-themed material, self-harm content, and that's [1:33:41] fantastic. That's great. What's odd, what I'm trying to understand is why it is that Instagram is [1:33:52] only restricting access to sexually explicit content, but only for teens ages 13 to 15. Why not restrict [1:34:06] it for 16 and 17 year olds as well? Senator, my understanding is that we don't allow sexually [1:34:12] explicit content on the service for people of any age. How is that going? You know, our prevalence metrics [1:34:24] suggests that I think it's 99% or so of the content that we remove we're able to identify [1:34:31] automatically using AI systems. So I think that our efforts in this, while they're not perfect, [1:34:35] I think are industry-leading. The other thing that you asked about was self-harm content, which is what [1:34:41] we recently restricted. And we made that shift. I think the state of the science is shifting a bit. [1:34:49] Previously, we believed that when people were thinking about self-harm, it was important for [1:34:56] them to be able to express that and get support. And now more of the thinking in the field is that [1:35:02] it's just better to not show that content at all, which is why we recently moved to restrict that from [1:35:07] showing up for those teens at all. Okay. Is there a way for parents to make a request on what their kid [1:35:16] can see or not see on your sites? There are a lot of parental controls. I'm not sure if they're, [1:35:25] I don't think that we currently have a control around topics, but we do allow parents to control [1:35:32] the time that the children are on the site. And also a lot of it is based on kind of monitoring [1:35:37] and understanding what the the teen's experience is, what they're interacting with. Mr. Citrin, [1:35:42] uh, Discord allows pornography on its site. Now, reportedly 17% of minors who use Discord has, [1:35:49] have had online sexual interactions on your platform, 17%, and 10%, uh, have those interactions [1:35:56] with someone that the minor believed, uh, to be an adult. Do you restrict minors from, um, from accessing [1:36:05] Discord servers that host pornographic material on them? Uh, Senator, yes, we, we do restrict minors from [1:36:14] accessing content, um, that is marked for adults. Um, Discord also does not recommend content to [1:36:18] people. Discord is a chat app. We do not have a feed or an algorithm that boosts content. Um, so, [1:36:23] uh, we allow adults to share content with other adults in adult labeled spaces, and we do not allow [1:36:29] teens to access that content. Okay. I see my time's expired. Thank you. Welcome, everyone. We are, uh, here in [1:36:40] this hearing, um, because as a collective, your platforms really suck at policing themselves. We [1:36:53] hear about it here in Congress with fentanyl and other drug dealing facilitated across platforms. We [1:37:02] see it and hear about it here in Congress with harassment and bullying that takes place across your [1:37:10] platforms. We see it and hear about it here in Congress with respect to child pornography, [1:37:19] sexploitation, and blackmail, and we are sick of it. It seems to me that there is a problem with [1:37:32] accountability because these conditions continue to persist. In my view, section 230, which provides [1:37:43] immunity from lawsuit is a very significant part of that problem. If you look at where bullies [1:37:53] have been brought to heel recently, whether it's Dominion finally getting justice against Fox News [1:38:06] after a long campaign to try to discredit the election equipment manufacturer, or whether it's the [1:38:14] moms and dads of the Sandy Hook victims finally getting justice against Infowars and its campaign [1:38:25] of trying to get people to believe that the massacre of their children was a fake put on by them, or even [1:38:34] now more recently with a writer getting a very significant judgment against Donald Trump after years of [1:38:48] bullying and defamation, an honest courtroom has proven to be the place where these things get sorted out. [1:39:01] And I'll just describe one case, if I may, it's called Doe versus Twitter. The plaintiff in that case was [1:39:13] blackmailed in 2017 for sexually explicit photos and videos of himself, then aged 13 to 14. A compilation video of [1:39:27] multiple CSAM videos surfaced on Twitter in 2019. A concerned citizen reported that video [1:39:41] on December 25, 2019, Christmas Day, Twitter took no action. The plaintiff, then a minor in high school in 2019, [1:39:57] became aware of this video from his classmates in January of 2020. You're a high school kid and suddenly [1:40:16] there's that. That's a day that's hard to recover from. Ultimately, he became suicidal. He and his parents [1:40:30] contacted law enforcement and Twitter to have these videos removed on January 21st and again on January 22nd of [1:40:39] 2020. And Twitter ultimately took down the video on January 30th, 2020, once federal law enforcement got involved. [1:40:50] That's a pretty foul set of facts. And when the family sued Twitter for all those months of refusing to take down [1:41:06] the explicit video of this child, Twitter invoked Section 230 and the district court ruled that the claim was barred. [1:41:24] There is nothing about that set of facts that tells me that Section 230 performed any public service in that regard. [1:41:38] I would like to see very substantial adjustments to Section 230 so that the honest courtroom, [1:41:49] which brought relief and justice to E. Jean Carroll after months of defamation, which brought silence, peace and justice [1:42:02] to the parents of the Sandy Hook children after months of defamation and bullying by Infowars and Alex Jones, [1:42:11] and which brought significant justice and an end to the campaign of defamation by Fox News to a little company [1:42:24] that was busy just making election machines. So I would, uh, my time is running out. I'll turn to, [1:42:35] I guess, Senator Cruz's next. But I would like to have each of your companies put in writing what [1:42:47] exemptions from the protection of Section 230 you would be willing to accept bearing in mind the fact [1:42:57] situation in Doe versus Twitter, bearing in mind the enormous harm that was done to that young person [1:43:06] and that family by the non-responsiveness of this enormous platform over months and months and months [1:43:17] and months. Again, think of what it's like to be a high school kid and have that stuff up in the public [1:43:25] domain and have the company that is holding it out there in the public domain react so disinterestedly. [1:43:39] Okay. Will you put that down in writing for me? One, two, three, four, five yeses. [1:43:48] Done. Senator Cruz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Social media is a very powerful tool, [1:43:54] but we're here because every parent I know and I think every parent in America is terrified [1:44:01] about the garbage that is directed at our kids. I have two teenagers at home and the phones they [1:44:08] have are portals to predators, to viciousness, to bullying, to self-harm, and each of your companies [1:44:19] could do a lot more to prevent it. Mr. Zuckerberg, in June of 2023, the Wall Street Journal reported [1:44:26] that Instagram's recommendation systems were actively connecting pedophiles to accounts that were [1:44:33] advertising the sale of child sexual abuse material. In many cases, those accounts appeared to be [1:44:41] run by underage children themselves, often using code words and emojis to advertise illicit material. [1:44:49] In other cases, the accounts included indicia that the victim was being sex trafficked. Now, [1:44:56] I know that Instagram has a team that works to prevent the abuse and exploitation of children online, [1:45:03] but what was particularly concerning about the Wall Street Journal expose was the degree to which [1:45:09] Instagram's own algorithm was promoting the discoverability of victims for pedophiles seeking [1:45:17] child abuse material. In other words, this material wasn't just living on the dark corners of Instagram. [1:45:26] Instagram was helping pedophiles find it by promoting graphic hashtags, including hashtag [1:45:36] pedwhore and hashtag preteensex to potential buyers. Instagram also displayed the following warning screen [1:45:48] to individuals who were searching for child abuse material. These results may contain images of child [1:46:00] sexual abuse. And then you gave users two choices, get resources or see results anyway. Mr. Zuckerberg, [1:46:13] what the hell were you thinking? All right, Senator. The basic science behind that is that when people [1:46:23] are searching for something that is problematic, it's often helpful to, rather than just blocking it, [1:46:29] to help direct them towards something that could be helpful for getting them to get help. In what, [1:46:35] I understand get resources. In what sane universe is there a link for see results anyway? Well, [1:46:42] because we might be wrong. We, we try to trigger this, this, uh, warning, or we tried to, um, [1:46:49] when we think that there's any chance that the results- Okay, you might be wrong. Let me ask you, [1:46:53] how many times was this warning screen displayed? I don't know, but the, but the- You don't know, [1:46:58] why don't you know? I, I don't know the answer to that off the top of my head, but- But you know what, [1:47:03] Mr. Zuckerberg, it's interesting you say you don't know it off the top of your head, because I asked it [1:47:07] in June of 2023 in an oversight letter and your company refused to answer. Will you commit right [1:47:15] now to within five days answering this question for this committee? We'll follow up on that. Is [1:47:20] that a yes? Not a we'll follow up. I know how lawyers write statements saying we're not going [1:47:25] to answer. Will you tell us how many times this warning screen was displayed? Yes or no? Senator, [1:47:31] I'll personally look into it. I'm not sure if we have- Okay, so you're refusing to answer that. Let me [1:47:35] ask you this. How many times did an Instagram user who got this warning that you're seeing images of [1:47:42] child sexual abuse, how many times did that user click on see results anyway? I want to see that. [1:47:48] Senator, I'm not sure if we stored that, but I'll personally look into this and we'll follow up after. [1:47:52] And what follow up did Instagram do when you have a potential pedophile clicking on, [1:48:01] I'd like to see child porn? What did you do next when that happened? Senator, I think that an [1:48:07] important piece of context here is that any context that we think is child sexual abuse- [1:48:11] Mr. Zuckerberg, that's called a question. What did you do next when someone clicked? You may be getting [1:48:20] child sexual abuse images and they click see results anyway. What was your next step? You said [1:48:27] you might be wrong. Did anyone examine, was it in fact child sexual abuse material? Did anyone report [1:48:33] that user? Did anyone go and try to protect that child? What did you do next? Senator, we take down [1:48:40] anything that we think is sexual abuse material on the service, and we do- Did anyone verify whether [1:48:45] it was in fact child sexual abuse material? Senator, I don't know if every single search result [1:48:51] we're following up on, but- Did you report the people who wanted it? Senator, do you want me to [1:48:55] answer your question? Yeah, I want you to answer the question I'm asking. Did you report the people who [1:49:00] click, see results anyway? That's probably one of the factors that we use in reporting, and in general, [1:49:06] we've reported more people and done more reports like this to NCMEC, the National Center of Missing [1:49:11] Exploited Children, than any other company in the industry. We proactively go out of our way across [1:49:16] our services to do this and have made, I think it's more than 26 million reports, which is more than [1:49:22] the whole rest of the industry combined. So- Mr. Zuckerberg, Mr. Zuckerberg, your company and every [1:49:28] social media company needs to do much more to protect children. All right, Mr. Chu, in the next [1:49:32] couple of minutes I have, I want to turn to you. Are you familiar with China's 2017 National Intelligence [1:49:39] Law, which states, quote, all organizations and citizens shall support, assist, and cooperate with [1:49:44] national intelligence efforts in accordance with the law and shall protect national intelligence work [1:49:50] secrets they are aware of? Yes, I'm familiar with this. TikTok is owned by ByteDance. Is ByteDance [1:49:59] subject to the law? For the Chinese businesses that ByteDance owns, yes, it will be subject to this, [1:50:04] but TikTok is not available in mainland China. And Senator, as we talked about in your office, [1:50:10] we built Project Texas to put this out of reach. So ByteDance is subject to the law. Now, under this law, [1:50:17] which says, shall protect national intelligence work secrets they are aware of, it compels [1:50:23] people subject to the law to lie, to protect those secrets. Is that correct? I cannot comment on that. [1:50:33] What I said again is that we have... Because you have to protect those secrets? [1:50:37] No, Senator, TikTok is not available in mainland China. We have moved the data into an American [1:50:41] cloud infrastructure. But TikTok is controlled by ByteDance, which is subject to this law. [1:50:46] Now, you said earlier, you said, and I wrote this down, we have not been asked for any data [1:50:52] by the Chinese government, and we have never provided it. I'm going to tell you, and I told this when you and I [1:50:57] met last week in my office, I do not believe you. And I'll tell you, the American people don't either. If you look at what is [1:51:05] on TikTok, in China, you are promoting to kids science and math videos, educational videos, [1:51:12] and you limit the amount of time kids can be on TikTok. In the United States, you are promoting to [1:51:17] kids self-harm videos and anti-Israel propaganda. Why is there such a dramatic difference? Senator, [1:51:32] that is just not accurate. There's not a difference between what kids see in China and what kids see here? [1:51:37] Senator, TikTok is not available in China. It's a separate experience there. What I'm saying is- [1:51:41] But you have a company that is essentially the same, except it promotes beneficial materials [1:51:47] instead of harmful materials. That is not true. We have a lot of science and math content here on TikTok. [1:51:53] There's so much of it- All right, let me point to this, Mr. Chu. There was a report recently [1:52:00] that compared hashtags on Instagram to hashtags on TikTok and what trended. And the differences were [1:52:09] striking. So, for something like hashtag Taylor Swift or hashtag Trump, researchers found roughly [1:52:17] two Instagram posts for everyone on TikTok. That's not a dramatic difference. That difference jumps to [1:52:24] 8 to 1 for the hashtag Uyghur. And it jumps to 30 to 1 for the hashtag Tibet. And it jumps to 57 to 1 [1:52:35] to the hashtag Tiananmen Square. And it jumps to 174 to 1 for the hashtag Hong Kong protest. [1:52:46] Why is it that on Instagram, people can put up a hashtag Hong Kong protest 174 times compared to TikTok? [1:52:55] What censorship is TikTok doing at the request of the Chinese government? [1:53:00] None. Senator, that analysis is flawed. Explain that differential. [1:53:03] The analysis is flawed. It's been debunked by other external sources like the Cato Institute. [1:53:08] Fundamentally, a few things happen here. Not all videos carry hashtags. That's the first thing. [1:53:12] The second thing is that you cannot selectively choose a few words within a certain time period. [1:53:16] Why the difference between Taylor Swift and Tiananmen Square? What happened in Tiananmen Square? [1:53:21] Senator, there was a massive protest during that time. But what I'm trying to say is our users can [1:53:28] freely come and post this content. Why would there be no difference on [1:53:30] Taylor Swift or a minimal difference and a massive difference on Tiananmen Square or Hong Kong? [1:53:34] Senator, could you wrap up please? Senator, our algorithm does not suppress any [1:53:39] content simply based on it. It doesn't. To answer that question, why is there a difference? [1:53:42] Like I said, I think this analysis is flawed. You're selectively choosing some words over [1:53:46] some periods. We haven't been around this long as others. There is an obvious difference. 174 to 1 [1:53:51] for Hong Kong compared to Taylor Swift is dramatic. Senator Blumenauer. [1:53:59] Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zuckerberg. Blumenthal, I'm sorry. Thank you. I know both of them. [1:54:06] That was good enough. Mr. Zuckerberg, you know who Antigone Davis is, correct? Yes. [1:54:13] She's one of your top leaders. In September of 2021, she was global head of safety, correct? Yes. [1:54:23] And you know that she came before a subcommittee of the Commerce Committee that I chaired at the [1:54:28] time, Subcommittee on Consumer Protection, correct? Yes. And she was testifying on behalf of Facebook, [1:54:33] right? Meta, but yes. It was then Facebook, but Meta now. And she told us, and I'm quoting, [1:54:43] Facebook is committed to building better products for young people and to doing everything we can to [1:54:49] protect their privacy, safety, and well-being on our platforms. And she also said, kids safety is an [1:54:57] area where, quote, we are investing heavily, end quote. We now know that statement was untrue. We know it [1:55:08] from an internal email that we have received. It's an email written by Nick Clegg. You know who he is, [1:55:15] correct? Yes. He was Meta's President of Global Affairs, and he wrote a memo to you, which you received, [1:55:27] correct? It was written to you. So I can't see the email, but sure, I'll assume that that you got it [1:55:36] back correct. And he summarized Facebook's problems. He said, quote, we are not on track to succeed for our [1:55:46] core well-being topics. Problematic use, bullying, and harassment, connections, and SSI, meaning [1:55:55] suicidal self-injury. He said also in another memo, quote, we need to do more and we are being held back [1:56:09] by a lack of investment. This memo has the date of August 28th, just weeks before that testimony [1:56:21] from Antigone Davis, correct? Sorry, Senator. I'm not sure what the [1:56:28] testimony was. Well, those are the dates on the emails. Nick Clegg was asking you, pleading with you, [1:56:38] for resources to back up the narrative, to fulfill the commitments. In effect, Antigone Davis was making [1:56:53] promises that Nick Clegg was trying to fulfill, and you rejected that request for 45 to 84 engineers [1:57:05] to do well-being or safety. We know that you rejected it from another memo, Nick Clegg's assistant, [1:57:15] Tim Colburn, who said, Nick did email Mark, referring to that earlier email, [1:57:27] to emphasize his support for the package, but it lost out to the various other pressures and priorities. [1:57:35] We've done a calculation that those potentially 84 engineers would have cost Meta about 50 million [1:57:47] dollars in a quarter when it earned 9.2 billion dollars, and yet it failed to make that commitment [1:58:00] in real terms, and you rejected that request because of other pressures and priorities. That is an example [1:58:11] from your own internal document of failing to act, and it is the reason why we can no longer trust Meta [1:58:22] and, frankly, any of the other social media to, in effect, grade their own homework. The public, [1:58:33] and particularly the parents in this room, know that we can no longer rely on social media to provide [1:58:41] the kind of safeguards that children and parents deserve, and that is the reason why passing the [1:58:49] Kids Online Safety Act is so critically important. Mr. Zuckerberg, do you believe that you have a [1:58:55] constitutional right to lie to Congress? Senator, no, but I mean- Well, let me just clarify for you, [1:59:03] I mean, I'd like the opportunity to respond to- Let me just clarify for you, in a lawsuit brought by [1:59:11] hundreds of parents, some in this very room, alleging that you made false and misleading [1:59:17] statements concerning the safety of your platform for children, you argued in not just one pleading, [1:59:26] but twice, in December and then in January, that you have a constitutional right to lie to Congress. [1:59:33] Do you disavow that filing in court? Senator, I don't know what filing you're talking about, [1:59:40] but I testify honestly and truthfully, and I would like the opportunity to respond [1:59:45] to the previous things that you showed as well. Well, I have a few more questions, [1:59:50] and let me ask others who are here, because I think it's important to put you on record, [1:59:57] who will support the Kids Online Safety Act? Yes or no? Mr. Sitren. There are parts of the act that we [2:00:06] think are great. No, it's a yes or no question. I'm going to be running out of time, [2:00:10] so I'm assuming the answer is no, if you can't answer yes. We very much think that the national [2:00:16] privacy standard would be great. That's a no. Mr. Siegel. Senator, we strongly support the Kids [2:00:22] Online Safety Act, and we've already implemented many of its core provisions. Thank you. I welcome [2:00:26] that support, along with Microsoft's support. Mr. Chu. Senator, with some changes, we can support it. [2:00:32] Now, in its present form, do you support it? Yes or no? We are aware that some groups have raised some [2:00:38] concerns. It's important to understand how this is. I'll take that as a no. Ms. Yaccarino. Senator, [2:00:44] we support COSIN will continue to make sure that it accelerates and make sure that it continues [2:00:50] to offer community for teens that are seeking that voice. Mr. Zuckerberg. Senator, we support the [2:00:57] age-appropriate content standards, but would have some suggestions on how to implement it. Yes or no, [2:01:01] Mr. Zuckerberg. Do you support the Kids Online Safety Act? Senator, I think these are nuanced things. [2:01:06] Mr. Zuckerberg. That is public, and I'm just asking whether you'll support it or not. These are [2:01:12] nuanced things. I think that the basic spirit is right. I think the basic ideas in it are right, [2:01:17] and there are some ideas that I would debate how to best. Unfortunately, I don't think we can count [2:01:24] on social media as a group or big tech to support this measure, and in the past, we know it's been [2:01:32] opposed by armies of lawyers and lobbyists. We're prepared for this fight, but I am very, very glad [2:01:41] that we have parents here, because tomorrow we're going to have an advocacy day, and the folks who [2:01:47] really count, the people in this room who support this measure, are going to be going to their [2:01:55] representatives and their senators, and their voices and faces are going to make a difference. Senator [2:02:02] Schumer has committed that he will work with me to bring this bill to a vote, and then we will have [2:02:11] real protection for children and parents online. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:02:19] Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. We have a vote on, has Senator Cotton, have you voted on, and Senator [2:02:26] Hawley, you haven't voted yet. You're next, and I don't know how long the vote will be open, but [2:02:33] turn it over to you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Zuckerberg, let me start with you. Did I hear you say [2:02:39] in your opening statement that there's no link between mental health and social media use? Senator, [2:02:46] what I said is I think it's important to look at the science. I know it's people widely talk about [2:02:51] this as if that is something that's already been proven, and I think that the bulk of the scientific [2:02:55] evidence does not support that. Well, really, let me just remind you of some of the science from [2:03:00] your own company. Instagram studied the effect of your platform on teenagers. Let me just read you [2:03:07] some quotes from the Wall Street Journal's report on this. Company researchers found that Instagram is [2:03:11] harmful for a sizable percentage of teenagers, most notably teenage girls. Here's a quote from your [2:03:17] own study. Quote, we make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls. Here's another quote, [2:03:25] teens blamed Instagram. This is your study for increases in the rate of anxiety and depression. [2:03:30] This reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups. That's your study. Senator, we try to [2:03:37] understand the feedback and how people feel about the services. We can improve them. Wait a minute. [2:03:42] Your own study says that you make life worse for one in three teenage girls. You increase anxiety and [2:03:50] depression. That's what it says. And you're here testifying to us in public that there's no link. [2:03:55] You've been doing this for years. For years, you've been coming in public and testifying under oath [2:03:59] that there's absolutely no link. Your product is wonderful. The science is nascent, [2:04:04] full speed ahead, while internally you know full well your product is a disaster for teenagers. [2:04:10] Senator, that's not true. And yet you keep right on doing what you're doing. [2:04:13] Right? That's not true. That's not true. Let me show you some other facts I know that you're familiar [2:04:17] with. You can carry the data points if you want. Wait a minute. That's not a question. That's not a [2:04:21] question. Those are facts, Mr. Zuckerberg. That's not a question. Those aren't facts. Let me show you [2:04:25] some more facts. Here are some information from a whistleblower who came before the Senate, [2:04:30] testified under oath in public. He worked for you. He's a senior executive. Here's what he showed. [2:04:35] He found when he studied your products. So for example, this is girls between the ages of 13 and [2:04:42] 15 years old. 37 percent of them reported that they had been exposed to nudity on the platform [2:04:49] unwanted in the last seven days. 24 percent said that they had experienced unwanted sexual advances. [2:04:56] They've been propositioned in the last seven days. 17 percent said they had encountered self-harm [2:05:01] content pushed at them in the last seven days. Now, I know you're familiar with these stats because [2:05:08] he sent you an email where he lined it all out. I mean, we've got a copy of it right here. [2:05:14] My question is, who did you fire for this? Who got fired because of that? Senator, we study all this [2:05:22] because it's important and we want to improve our services. Well, you just told me a second ago you [2:05:25] studied it be that there was no linkage. Who did you fire? I said you mischaracterized. 37 percent [2:05:31] of teenage girls between 13 and 15 were exposed to unwanted nudity in a week on Instagram. You knew [2:05:38] about it. Who did you fire? Senator, this is why we're building all. Who did you fire? Senator, [2:05:44] that's I don't think that that's. Who did you fire? I'm not going to answer that. Because you didn't fire [2:05:49] anybody, right? You didn't take any significant action. Senator, I don't think it's appropriate to talk [2:05:54] about it like it's not appropriate decisions. Do you know who's sitting behind you? You've got [2:06:00] families from across the nation whose children are either severely harmed or gone and you don't [2:06:07] think it's appropriate to take a talk about steps that you took? The fact that you didn't fire a [2:06:11] single person. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. Have you compensated any of the victims? [2:06:15] Sorry? Have you compensated any of the victims? These girls, have you compensated them? I don't believe so. [2:06:21] Why not? Don't you think they deserve some compensation for what your platform has done? [2:06:29] Help with counseling services? Help with dealing with the issues that your services caused? Our job [2:06:35] is to make sure that we build tools to help keep people safe. Are you going to compensate them? Senator, [2:06:41] our job and what we take seriously is making sure that we build industry-leading tools to find harmful [2:06:47] content, take it off the services, and to build tools that empower parents. So you didn't take any action [2:06:53] You didn't take any action. You didn't fire anybody. You haven't compensated a single victim. Let me [2:06:57] ask you this. Let me ask you this. There's families of victims here today. Have you apologized to the [2:07:01] victims? Would you like to do so now? Well, they're here. You're on national television. Would you like [2:07:08] now to apologize to the victims who have been harmed by your product? Show them the pictures. [2:07:13] Would you like to apologize for what you've done to these good people? [2:07:16] I'm sorry that I have to go through the things that your families have had. And this is why we invest [2:07:29] so much and are going to continue doing industry-leading efforts to make sure that no one has to go [2:07:36] through the types of things that your families have had to suffer. You know, why, Mr. Zuckerberg, [2:07:46] why should your company not be sued for this? Why is it that you can claim you hide behind a liability [2:07:53] shield? You can't be held accountable. Shouldn't you be held accountable personally? Will you take personal [2:07:58] responsibility? Senator, I think I've already answered this. I mean, this is- [2:08:02] Well, try this again. Will you take personal responsibility? Senator, I view my job and the [2:08:07] job of our company as building the best tools that we can to keep our community safe. Well, [2:08:12] you're failing at that. Well, Senator, we're doing an industry-leading effort. We build AI tools that- [2:08:16] Oh, nonsense. Your product is killing people. Will you personally commit to compensating the victims? [2:08:20] You're a billionaire. Will you commit to compensating the victims? Will you set up a compensation fund [2:08:25] with your money? Senator, I think these are- [2:08:26] With your money. Senator, these are complicated- [2:08:28] Yes. No, that's not a complicated question, though. That's a yes or no. Will you set up a [2:08:32] victim's compensation fund with your money, the money you made on these families sitting behind [2:08:37] you? Yes or no? Senator, I don't think that that's- [2:08:41] My job is to make sure- [2:08:41] Sounds like a no. Good tools. My job is to make sure that- [2:08:43] Sounds like a no. Your job is to be responsible for what your company has done. You've made [2:08:48] billions of dollars on the people sitting behind them. Are you here? You've done nothing to help them. [2:08:53] You've done nothing to compensate them. You've done nothing to put it right. You could do so here [2:08:57] today, and you should. You should, Mr. Zuckerberg. Before my time expires, Mr. Chu, let me just ask you. [2:09:05] Your platform. Why should your platform not be banned in the United States of America? [2:09:11] You are owned by a Chinese communist company or a company based in China. The editor-in-chief [2:09:18] of your parent company is a communist party secretary. Your company has been surveilling [2:09:26] Americans for years. According to leaked audio from more than 80 internal TikTok meetings, [2:09:32] China-based employees of your company have repeatedly accessed non-public data of United [2:09:38] States citizens. Your company has tracked journalists improperly gaining access to their IP addresses, [2:09:45] user data in an attempt to identify whether they're writing negative stories about you. [2:09:51] Why should your platform is basically an espionage arm for the Chinese communist party? Why should you [2:09:57] not be banned in the United States of America? Senator, I disagree with your characterization. [2:10:01] Many of what you have said we have explained in a lot of detail. TikTok is used by 170 million [2:10:06] Americans. I know when every single one of those Americans are in danger from the fact that you [2:10:11] track their keystrokes, you track their app usage, you track their location data, and we know that all [2:10:18] of that information can be accessed by Chinese employees who are subject to the dictates of the Chinese [2:10:24] Communist Party. Why should you not be banned in this in this country? Senator, that is not accurate. [2:10:30] A lot of what you described we collect, we don't. It is 100 percent accurate. Do you deny [2:10:35] that repeatedly Americans' data has been accessed by ByteDance employees in China? We built a project [2:10:43] that either cost us billions of dollars to stop that, and we have made a lot of progress. And it [2:10:47] hasn't been stopped. According to the Wall Street Journal report from just yesterday, even now ByteDance [2:10:54] workers, without going through official channels, have access to the private information of American [2:10:59] citizens. I'm quoting from the article, private information of American citizens, including their [2:11:02] birthday, their IP address, and more. That's now. Senator, as we know, the media doesn't always get [2:11:07] it right. What we have- But the Chinese Communist Party does? I'm not saying that. What I'm saying [2:11:13] is that we have spent billions of dollars to build this project. It's rigorous, it's robust, it's [2:11:17] unprecedented, and I'm proud of the work that the 2,000 employees are doing to protect the data. [2:11:21] But it's not protected. That's the problem, Mr. Chu. It's not protected at all. It's subject to [2:11:27] Communist Chinese Party inspection and review. Your app, unlike anybody else sitting here and have [2:11:32] a problem with everybody here, but your app, unlike any of those, is subject to the control [2:11:38] and inspection of a foreign hostile government that has actively trying to track the information [2:11:44] of whereabouts of every American that they get their hands on. Your app ought to be banned in the United [2:11:48] States of America for the security of this country. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Girono. [2:11:56] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As we've heard, children face all sorts of dangers when they use social media, [2:12:02] from mental health harms to sexual exploitation, even trafficking. Sex trafficking is a serious [2:12:10] problem in my home state of Hawaii, especially for native Hawaiian victims. That social media platforms [2:12:16] are being used to facilitate this trafficking, as well as the creation and distortion, distribution of [2:12:25] C-scam is deeply concerning, but it's happening. For example, several years ago, a military police [2:12:32] officer stationed in Hawaii was sentenced to 15 years in prison for producing C-scam as part of his [2:12:39] online exploitation of a minor female. He began communicating with this 12-year-old girl through [2:12:46] Instagram. He then used Snapchat to send her sexually explicit photos and to solicit such photos from her. [2:12:55] He later used these photos to blackmail her. And just last month, the FBI arrested a neo-Nazi cult leader [2:13:03] in Hawaii who lured victims to his Discord server. He used that server to share images of extremely disturbing [2:13:11] child sexual abuse material interspersed with neo-Nazi imagery. Members of his child exploitation and hate group [2:13:21] are also present on Instagram, Snapchat, X, and TikTok, all of which they use to recruit potential members [2:13:30] and victims. In many cases, including the ones I just mentioned, your companies played a role in helping [2:13:36] law enforcement investigate these offenders. But by the time of the investigation, so much damage had already [2:13:42] been done. This hearing is about how to keep children safe online. And we've listened to all of your [2:13:49] our testimony to seemingly impressive safeguards for young users. You try to limit the time that they [2:13:57] spend. You require parental consent. You have all of these tools. Yet trafficking and exploitation of [2:14:04] minors online and on your platforms continues to be rampant. Nearly all of your companies make your money [2:14:11] through advertising, specifically by selling the attention of your users. Your product is your [2:14:19] users. As a meta product designer wrote in an email, quote, young ones are the best ones. You want to [2:14:28] bring people to your service young and early, end quote. In other words, hook them early. Research published [2:14:38] last month by Harvard School of Public Health estimates that SNAP makes an astounding 41 percent of its [2:14:46] revenues by the addressing to users under 18. With TikTok, it's 35 percent. Seven of the 10 largest Discord [2:14:56] servers attracting many paying users are for games used primarily by teens, by children. All this is to [2:15:06] say that social media companies, yours and others, make money by attracting kids to your platforms. But [2:15:13] ensuring safety doesn't make money. It costs money. If you are going to continue to attract kids to your [2:15:20] platforms, you have an obligation to ensure they are safe on the platforms. Because the current situation [2:15:28] is untenable. That is why we're having this hearing. But to ensure safety for our children, that costs money. [2:15:38] Your companies cannot continue to profit off young users, only to look the other way [2:15:43] when those users, our children, are harmed online. We've had a lot of comments about Section 230 protections. [2:15:57] And I think we are definitely heading in that direction. And some of the five bills that we [2:16:01] have already passed out of this committee talks about limiting the liability protections for you. [2:16:09] Last November, this is for Mr. Zuckerberg. Last November, the privacy technology subcommittee heard [2:16:15] testimony from Arturo Behar in response to one of my questions about how to ensure that social media [2:16:22] companies focus more on child safety. He said, he said, and I am paraphrasing a little bit. Mr. Behar said, [2:16:31] what will change their behavior is at the moment that Mark Zuckerberg declares earnings. And these are, [2:16:39] these earnings have to be declared to the SEC. So he has to say, last quarter, we made 34 billion dollars. [2:16:45] And the next thing he has to say is, how many teens experienced unwanted sexual advances on this [2:16:54] platform? Mr. Zuckerberg, will you commit to reporting measurable child safety data on your quarterly earnings [2:17:03] reports and calls? Senator, it's a good question. We actually already have a quarterly report that we issue [2:17:12] and do a call to answer questions for how we're enforcing our community standards. That includes [2:17:17] not just the child safety issues and metrics. So is that a yes? We have a separate call that we do this [2:17:24] on, but we've led the industry. I think that, you know, you have to report your earnings to the SEC. [2:17:29] Will you report to them this kind of data? And by numbers, by the way, because Senator Cruz and others have [2:17:36] said, percentages don't really tell the full story. Will you report to the SEC the number of [2:17:42] teens? And sometimes you don't even know whether they're teens or not because they just claim to be [2:17:46] adults. Will you report the number of underage children on your platforms who experience unwanted [2:17:54] CSAM and other kinds of messaging that harm them? Will you commit to citing those numbers to the SEC [2:18:09] when you make your quarterly report? Well, Senator, I'm not sure it would make as much sense to include [2:18:14] it in the SEC filing, but we file it publicly so that way everyone can see this. And I'd be happy to [2:18:20] follow up and talk about what specific metrics. I think the specific things that some of the ones that you [2:18:25] just mentioned around underage people on our services, we don't allow people under the age [2:18:29] of 13 on our service. So if we find anyone who's under the age of 13, we remove them from our service. [2:18:33] Now, I'm not saying that people don't lie and that there aren't anyone who's under the age of 13 [2:18:37] who's using it, but we're not going to be able to count how many people there are because [2:18:41] fundamentally if we identify that someone is underage, we remove them from the service. I think that's [2:18:45] really important that we get actual numbers because these are real human beings. That's why all these [2:18:49] parents and others are here because each time that a person, a young person is exposed [2:18:54] to this kind of unwanted material and they get hooked, it is a danger to that individual. So [2:19:02] I'm hoping that you are saying that you do report this kind of information to, if not the SEC, [2:19:08] that it is made public. I think I'm hearing that. Yes, you do. So yes, Senator, I think we report more [2:19:14] publicly on our enforcement than any other company in the industry. And we're very supportive of [2:19:20] transparency measures. I am running out of time, Mr. Zuckerberg. So I will follow up with what exactly [2:19:27] it is that you do report. Again, for you, when META automatically places young people's accounts, [2:19:33] and you testified to this, on the most restrictive privacy and content sensitivity sessions. And yet, [2:19:39] teens are able to opt out of these safeguards. Isn't that right? It's not mandatory that they remain [2:19:47] on these settings. They can opt out. Senator, yes, we default teens into a private account, [2:19:55] so that they have a private and restricted experience. But some teens want to be creators [2:19:59] and want to have content that they share more broadly. And I don't think that that's something [2:20:04] that should just blanketly be banned. Why not? I think it should be mandatory that they not, [2:20:11] that they remain on the more restrictive settings. Senator, I mean, a lot of teens create amazing [2:20:18] things. And I think with the right supervision and, and, and, and parenting and, and controls, [2:20:23] I think that that's like, I don't think that that's the type of thing that you want to just [2:20:27] not allow anyone to be able to do. I think you want to make it so that my time, my time is up, [2:20:32] but I have to say that there is an argument that you all make for every single thing that we are [2:20:36] proposing. And I, I share the, the concern that I have about the blanket limitation on liabilities [2:20:42] that we provide all of you. And I think that that has to change. And that is on us, [2:20:48] on Congress to make that change. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Senator Rono. Senator Kott. [2:20:56] Mr. Chu, let's cut straight to the chase. Is TikTok under the influence of the Chinese Communist Party? [2:21:04] No, Senator, we are part of the business. Okay, so you can see that your parent, [2:21:09] ByteDance, is subject to the 2017 national security law, which requires Chinese companies to turn over [2:21:15] information to the Chinese government and conceal it from the rest of the world. You concede that, [2:21:19] correct? Senator, the Chinese business. That's no question. You conceded it early. [2:21:23] Any company that does, any global businesses does business in China has to follow their local laws. [2:21:28] Isn't it the case that ByteDance also has an internal Chinese Communist Party committee? [2:21:33] Like I said, all businesses that operate in China have to follow their local law. So your parent company [2:21:38] is subject to the national security law that requires it to answer the party. It has its own [2:21:42] internal Chinese Communist Party committee. You answer to that parent company, but you expect us [2:21:47] to believe that you're not under the influence of the Chinese Communist Party? I understand this concern, [2:21:52] Senator, which is why we built Project Texas. Okay, it was a yes or no question. Okay, [2:21:55] but you used to work for ByteDance, didn't you? You were the CFO for ByteDance? That is correct, [2:21:59] Senator. In April 2021, while you were the CFO, the Chinese Communist Party's China Internet [2:22:05] Investment Fund purchased a 1% stake in ByteDance's main Chinese subsidiary, the ByteDance Technology [2:22:11] company. In return for that so-called 1% golden share, the party took one of three board seats at [2:22:17] that subsidiary company. That's correct, isn't it? It's for the Chinese business. Is that correct? [2:22:24] It's for the Chinese business, yes. That deal was finalized on April 30th, 2021. Isn't it true [2:22:29] that you were appointed the CEO of TikTok the very next day on May 1, 2021? Well, it's a coincidence. [2:22:36] It's a coincidence that you were the CFO, that the Chinese Communist Party took its golden share in its [2:22:42] board seat, and the very next day you were appointed the CEO of TikTok? That's a hell of a coincidence. [2:22:47] It really is, Senator. Yeah, it is. Okay, and before ByteDance, you were at a Chinese company [2:22:55] called Xiaomi, is that correct? Yes, I used to work around the world. Where did you live when you [2:23:00] worked at Xiaomi? I lived in China, like many experts. Where exactly? In Beijing, in China. How many years did [2:23:06] you live in Beijing? Senator, I worked there for about five years. So you lived there for five years? Yes. [2:23:11] Is it the case that Xiaomi was sanctioned by the United States government in 2021 for being a [2:23:16] communist Chinese military company? I'm here to talk about TikTok. I think they then had a lawsuit [2:23:21] and it was overturned. I can't remember the details. No, no. It's another company. It was the Biden [2:23:25] administration that reversed those sanctions, just like, by the way, they reversed the terrorist [2:23:29] designation on the Houthis in Yemen. How's that working out for them? But it was sanctioned as a Chinese [2:23:35] communist military company. So you said today, as you often say, that you live in Singapore. [2:23:41] Of what nation are you a citizen? Singapore. Are you a citizen of any other nation? No, Senator. Have [2:23:48] you ever applied for Chinese citizenship? Senator, I served my nation in Singapore. No, I did not. [2:23:53] Do you have a Singaporean passport? Yes, and I served my military for two and a half years in [2:23:58] Singapore. Do you have any other passports from any other nations? No, Senator. Your wife is an American [2:24:03] citizen. Your children are American citizens. That's correct. Have you ever applied for American [2:24:06] citizenship? No, not yet. Okay. Have you ever been a member of the Chinese Communist Party? Senator, [2:24:15] I'm Singaporean. No. Have you ever been associated or affiliated with the Chinese Communist Party? [2:24:20] No, Senator. Again, I'm Singaporean. Let me ask you some hopefully simple questions. You said earlier, [2:24:25] in response to your question, that what happened at Tiananmen Square in June of 1989 was a massive protest. [2:24:31] Anything else happen in Tiananmen Square? Yes, I think it's well documented. There was a [2:24:35] massacre. There was an indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds or thousands of Chinese citizens. [2:24:41] Do you agree with the Trump administration and the Biden administration that the Chinese government [2:24:45] is committing genocide against the Uyghur people? Senator, I've said this before. I think it's really [2:24:50] important that anyone who cares about this topic or any topic can freely express themselves on TikTok. [2:24:54] It's a very simple question that unites both parties in our country and governments around the [2:24:59] world. Is the Chinese government committing genocide against the Uyghur people? Senator, anyone, [2:25:04] including, you know, you can come into TikTok and talk about this topic or any topic that matters to you. [2:25:09] You are a worldly, cosmopolitan, well-educated man who's expressed many opinions on many topics. [2:25:14] Is the Chinese government committing genocide against the Uyghur people? Actually, Senator, [2:25:18] I talk amazingly about my company and I'm here to talk about what TikTok does. Yes or no. [2:25:21] Yes or no. You're here to give testimony that's truthful and honest and complete. [2:25:27] Let me ask you this. Joe Biden last year said that Xi Jinping was a dictator. Do you agree with Joe Biden? [2:25:31] as Xi Jinping a dictator? Senator, I'm not going to comment on any world leaders. [2:25:36] Why won't you answer these very simple questions? Senator, it's not appropriate for me as a businessman [2:25:40] to comment on world leaders. Are you scared that you'll lose your job if you say anything about [2:25:43] negative about the Chinese Communist Party? I disagree with that. You will find content that is [2:25:47] critical of China on our platform. Are you scared that you'll be arrested and disappear the next time [2:25:51] you go to mainland China? Senator, you will find content that's critical of China and any other [2:25:55] country freely on TikTok. Okay, okay. Let's turn to what TikTok, a tool of the Chinese Communist Party, [2:26:02] is doing to America's youth. Does the name Mason Edens ring a bell? Senator, you may have to give me [2:26:10] more specifics if you don't mind. Yeah, he was a 16-year-old Arkansan. After a breakup in 2022, [2:26:15] he went on your platform and searched for things like inspirational quotes and positive affirmations. [2:26:20] Instead, he was served up numerous videos glamorizing suicide until he killed himself [2:26:27] by gun. What about the name Chase Nazca? Does that ring a bell? Would you mind giving me more details, [2:26:34] please? He was a 16-year-old who saw more than a thousand videos on your platform about violence [2:26:39] and suicide until he took his own life by stepping in front of a plane or train. Are you aware that his [2:26:44] parents, Dean and Michelle, are suing TikTok and ByteDance for pushing their son to take his own [2:26:49] life? Yes, I'm aware of that. Okay. Finally, Mr. Chiu, has the Federal Trade Commission sued [2:26:59] TikTok during the Biden administration? Senator, I cannot talk about whether there's any ongoing... [2:27:05] Are you currently being sued by the Federal Trade Commission? Senator, I cannot talk about [2:27:09] any potential lawsuits. I didn't say potential, actual. Are you being sued by the Federal Trade [2:27:13] Commission? Senator, I think I've given you my answer. I cannot talk about it. The answer is no. [2:27:18] Ms. Yaccarino's company is being sued, I believe. Mr. Zuckerberg's company is being sued, I believe. [2:27:23] Yet TikTok, the agent of the Chinese Communist Party, is not being sued by the Biden administration. [2:27:29] Are you familiar with the name Christina Kifara? You may have to give me more details. [2:27:36] Mr. Christina Kifara was a paid advisor to ByteDance, your communist-influenced parent company. [2:27:43] She was then hired by the Biden FTC to advise on how to sue Mr. Zuckerberg's company. [2:27:51] Senator, ByteDance is a global company and not a Chinese Communist Party company. [2:27:54] It's owned by global investors. Public reports indicate that your lobbyists [2:27:58] visited the White House more than 40 times in 2022. How many times did your company visit, [2:28:03] did your company's lobbyists visit the White House last year? [2:28:05] Mr. I don't know that, Senator. Are you aware that the Biden campaign and the [2:28:09] Democratic National Committee is on your platform? They have TikTok accounts? [2:28:14] Mr. Senator, we encourage people to come on. [2:28:16] Mr. Which, by the way, they won't let their staffers use their personal phones. They give them [2:28:20] separate phones that they only use TikTok on. [2:28:22] Mr. We encourage everyone to join, including yourself, Senator. [2:28:25] So, all these companies are being sued by the FTC. You're not. The FTC has a former paid [2:28:30] advisory or parent talking about how they can sue Mr. Zuckerberg's company. Joe Biden's re-election [2:28:35] campaign, the Democratic National Committee, is on your platform. Let me ask you, have you or anyone else [2:28:41] at TikTok communicated with or coordinated with the Biden administration, the Biden campaign, or the [2:28:47] Democratic National Committee, to influence the flow of information on your platform? [2:28:52] We work with anyone, any creators who want to use our campaign. It's all the same process. [2:28:58] Okay, so what we have here, we have a company that's a tool of the Chinese Communist Party [2:29:02] that is poisoning the minds of America's children, in some cases driving them to suicide, [2:29:07] and that, at best, the Biden administration is taking a pass on, at worst, maybe in collaboration with. [2:29:13] Thank you, Mr. Chu. [2:29:14] Thank you, Senator Cotton. So, we're going to take a break now. We're on the second roll call. Members [2:29:19] can take advantage of it. They wish the break will last about 10 minutes. Please do your best to return. [2:29:26] Senate Judiciary Committee will resume. We have nine senators who have not asked questions yet [2:48:37] in seven-minute rounds, and we'll turn first to Senator Padilla. [2:48:41] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Colleagues, as we reconvene, I'm proud, once again, to share that I am one of the few [2:48:54] senators with younger children. And I lead with that because, as we are having this conversation today, [2:49:03] it's not lost on me that between my children, who are all now in the teen and preteen category, [2:49:08] and their friends. I see this issue very up close and personal. And in that spirit, I want to take a [2:49:18] second to just acknowledge and thank all the parents who are in the audience today, many of whom have [2:49:24] shared their stories with our offices. And I credit them for finding strength through their suffering, [2:49:34] through their struggle, and channeling that into the advocacy that is making a difference. I thank all of [2:49:42] you. Now, I appreciate, again, personally, the challenges that parents and caretakers, school [2:49:51] personnel, and others face in helping our young people navigate this world of social media and [2:49:59] technology in general. Now, the services our children are growing up with provide them unrivaled access to [2:50:07] information. I mean, this is beyond what previous generations have experienced. And that includes [2:50:13] learning opportunities, socialization, and much, much more. But we also clearly have a lot of work to do [2:50:21] to better protect our children from the predators and predatory behavior that these technologies have [2:50:29] enabled. And yes, Mr. Zuckerberg, that includes exacerbating the mental health crisis in America. [2:50:38] Nearly all teens we know have access to smartphones and the internet and use the internet daily. And while [2:50:49] guardians do have primary responsibility for caring for our children, the old adage says it takes a village. [2:50:56] And so society as a whole, including leaders in the tech industry, must prioritize the health and safety [2:51:08] of our children. Now, dive into my questions now and be specific, platform by platform, witness by witness, [2:51:15] on the topic of some of the parental tools you have each made reference to. Mr. Citrin, how many [2:51:21] minors are on Discord and how many of them have caretakers that have adopted your Family Center tool? And if you [2:51:27] don't have the numbers, just say that quickly and provide that to our office. We can follow up with [2:51:32] you on that. How have you ensured that young people in their gardens are aware of the tools that you [2:51:39] offer? We make it very clear to use it to teens on our platform what tools are available. And our [2:51:45] teen safety assist is enabled by default. What specifically do you do? What that what may be clear to you is not [2:51:51] clear to the general public. So what do you do in your opinion to make it very clear? So our teen safety assist, [2:51:56] which is a feature that helps teens keep themselves safe in addition to blocking and blurring images [2:52:03] that may be sent to them. That is on by default for teen accounts and it cannot be turned off. We also [2:52:07] have we market and to our teen users directly on our platform. We launched our Family Center. We [2:52:14] create a promotional video. We put it directly on our products. So when every teen opened the app, in fact, [2:52:19] every user opened the app, they got an alert like, hey, Discord has this and they want you to use it. [2:52:24] Thank you. Look forward to the the data that we're requesting from Mr. Zuckerberg. Across all of [2:52:28] meta services from Instagram, Facebook, Messenger and Horizon, how many minors use your applications? [2:52:34] And of those minors, how many have a caretaker that has adopted the parental supervision tools [2:52:39] that you offer? Sorry, I can follow up with the specific stats on that. Okay, it would be very helpful [2:52:46] not just for us to know but for you to know as the leader of your company. And how same question, [2:52:52] how are you ensuring that young people and their gardens are aware of the tools that you offer? [2:52:57] Uh, we've run pretty extensive ad campaigns both on our platforms and outside. We work with creators [2:53:03] and organizations like Girl Scouts to make sure that this is broadly, that there's broad awareness of [2:53:10] the tools. Okay, Mr. Spiegel, how many minors use Snapchat and of those minors, how many have caretakers [2:53:15] that are registered with your Family Center? Senator, I believe approximately, in the United States, [2:53:21] there are approximately 20 million, uh, teenage users of Snapchat. I believe approximately 200,000 [2:53:26] parents use Family Center and about 400,000 teens have linked their account to their parents using [2:53:31] Family Center. So 200,000, 400,000 sounds like a big number but small in percentage of the minors using [2:53:37] Snapchat. Uh, what are you doing to ensure that young people and their gardens are aware of the tools [2:53:41] you offer? Senator, we, uh, create a banner for Family Center on the user's profiles so that accounts we [2:53:47] believe, uh, maybe of the age that they could be parents can see, uh, the, the entry point into [2:53:51] Family Center easily. Okay, uh, Mr. Chu, how many minors are on TikTok and how many of them have a [2:53:57] caregiver that uses your family tools? Senator, I need to get back to you on the specific numbers, [2:54:02] um, but we were one of the first platforms to give what we call family pairing, uh, to parents. [2:54:08] You go to settings, you turn on the QR code, your teenager's QR code and yours, you scan it. And what it [2:54:12] allows you to do is you can set screen time limits, you can, um, filter out some keywords, you can turn [2:54:18] on a more restricted mode. And we're always talking to parents, um, I met a, you know, a group of parents [2:54:23] and teenagers and high school teachers last week to talk about what more we can provide in the family [2:54:27] pairing mode. Mr. Jacarino, how many minors use X and are you planning to implement safety measures [2:54:34] or guidance for caretakers like, uh, your, uh, pure companies have? Thank you, Senator. Less than one [2:54:41] percent of all U.S. users are between the ages of 13 and 17. Less than one percent of how many? Of 90 [2:54:49] million U.S. users. Okay, so still hundreds of thousands. Continue. Yes, yes, and every single [2:54:54] one is very important. Uh, being a 14-month-old company, we have reprioritized child protection [2:55:01] and safety measures, and we have just begun to talk about and discuss how we can enhance those with [2:55:07] parental controls. Let me, uh, continue with a follow-up question for, um, Mr. Citron. In addition [2:55:15] to keeping parents informed about the nature of various internet services, there's a lot more [2:55:20] we always need to do. For today's purposes, while many companies offer a broad range of quote-unquote [2:55:25] user empowerment tools, it's helpful to understand whether young people even find these tools helpful. [2:55:32] So appreciate you sharing your teen safety assist and the tools and how you're advertising it, [2:55:37] but have you conducted any assessments, uh, of how these features are impacting minors use of your [2:55:44] platform? Our intention is to, is to give teens tools capabilities that they can use to keep themselves [2:55:51] safe, and also so our teams can help keep teens safe. Um, we recently launched teen safety assist [2:55:56] last year, and we, I, I do not have, um, a study off the top of my head, but we'd be happy to follow [2:56:00] up with you on that. Okay, uh, my time is up. I'll have follow-up questions for, uh, each of you, [2:56:04] either in the second round, uh, or through statements for the record on, uh, a similar [2:56:08] assessment of the tools that, uh, you've proposed. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, [2:56:12] Senator Padilla. Senator Kennedy. Thank you all for being here. Uh, Mr. Spiegel, [2:56:25] I see you hiding down there. What does yada yada yada mean? I'm not familiar with the term, [2:56:35] Senator. Very uncool. Can we agree that what you do, not what you say, [2:56:46] what you do is what you believe, and everything else is just cottage cheese? [2:56:54] Yes, Senator. You agree with that? Speak up. Don't be shy. I, I, I've listened to, to you today. [2:57:05] I've heard a lot of yada yada yada-ing, and I've heard you talk about the reforms you've made, [2:57:12] and I appreciate them, and I've heard you talk about the reforms you're going to make, [2:57:20] but I don't think you're going to solve the problem. I think Congress is going to have to help you. [2:57:27] I think the reforms you're talking about to some extent are going to be like putting [2:57:34] putting paint on rotten wood, and I'm not sure you're going to support this legislation. [2:57:40] I'm not. Um, the, the fact is that you and some of your internet colleagues who are not here [2:57:47] are no longer, you're, you're not companies, you're countries. You're, you're very, very powerful, [2:57:58] and you and some of your colleagues who are not here have blocked everything we have tried to do [2:58:07] in terms of reasonable regulation, everything from privacy to child exploitation. And, um, in fact, [2:58:20] we, we have a new definition of recession. Um, a recession is when we know we're in a recession when [2:58:27] Google has to lay off 25 members of Congress. That's what we're down to. We're also down to this [2:58:36] fact that your platforms are hurting children. I'm not saying they're not doing some good things, [2:58:43] but they're hurting children. And I know how to count votes. And if this bill comes to the floor [2:58:49] of the United States Senate, it will pass. What we're going to have to do, and I say this [2:58:56] with all the respect I can muster, is convince my good friend Senator Schumer to, to go to Amazon, [2:59:04] buy a spine online and bring this bill to the Senate floor. And, uh, the House will then pass it. [2:59:14] Now that's, that's one person's opinion. I may be wrong, but I doubt it. [2:59:21] Uh, Mr. Zuckerberg, let me ask you a couple of questions. Let's, I might wax a little philosophical [2:59:29] here. Um, I have to hand it to you. Uh, you, you have, um, you have convinced over 2 billion people [2:59:43] to give up all of their personal information, every bit of it, in exchange for getting to see [2:59:53] what their high school friends had for dinner Saturday night. That's pretty much your business [2:59:59] model, isn't it? It's not how I would characterize it. I mean, we give people the ability to connect [3:00:05] with the people they care about and, um, and to engage with the topics that they care about. And you, [3:00:12] and you take this information, this abundance of personal information, and then you develop [3:00:20] algorithms to punch people's hot buttons, which, and send, and, and steer to them information that [3:00:31] punches their hot buttons again and again and again to keep them coming back and to keep them staying [3:00:38] longer. And as a result, your users see only one side of an issue. And so to some extent, [3:00:49] your platform has become a killing field for the truth. Hasn't it? I mean, Senator, [3:00:54] I disagree with that, that characterization. Um, you know, we build ranking and recommendations [3:01:00] because people have a lot of friends and a lot of interests and they want to make sure that they [3:01:05] see the content that's relevant to them. Um, we're trying to make a product that's useful to people [3:01:09] and, and make our services, um, as helpful as possible for people to connect with the people they [3:01:14] care about and the interests they care about. But you don't show them both sides. You don't give them [3:01:18] balanced information. You just keep punching their hot buttons, punching their hot buttons. You don't show [3:01:24] them balanced information so people can discern the truth for themselves. And, and you rev them up [3:01:31] so much that, that so often your platform and others becomes just cesspools of snark where nobody learns [3:01:41] anything, don't they? Well, Senator, I disagree with that. I think people can engage in the things that [3:01:46] they're interested in, um, and learn quite a bit about those. We have done a handful of different [3:01:53] experiments and things in the past around news and trying to show content on, you know, a diverse set of, [3:01:59] of, of perspectives. I think that there's more that needs to be explored there, but I don't think [3:02:05] that we can solve that by ourselves. One of the things that I saw- Do you think- I'm sorry to cut you [3:02:08] off, Mr. Mr. President, but I'm going to run out of time. Do you think your users really understand [3:02:17] what they're giving to you, all their personal information, and how you, how you process it, [3:02:22] and how you monetize it? Do you think people really understand? Uh, Senator, I think people [3:02:29] understand the basic terms. I mean, I, I think that there's- I, I, I, I actually think that a lot of [3:02:35] people overestimate how much information there is that we have. Let me put it another way. We've [3:02:36] spent a couple years since we talked about this. Does your user agreement still suck? I, I, I'm not [3:02:44] sure how to answer that, Senator. I, I think the basic- Can you still have, can you still have a dead body [3:02:49] and all that legalese where nobody can find it? Senator, I'm not, I'm not quite sure what you're [3:02:55] referring to, but I think people get the basic deal of using these services. It's a free service, [3:03:00] you're using it to connect with the people you care about. If you share something with people, [3:03:04] other people will be able to see your information. It's, it's inherently, you know, if you're putting [3:03:08] something out there to be shared publicly, um, or with a private set of people, it's, you know, [3:03:12] you're inherently putting it out there. So, I, I think people get that basic- But, but, but, but, [3:03:17] Mr. Zuckerberg, you're in the foothills of creepy. You, you track, you track, you track people who [3:03:25] aren't even Facebook users. You track your own people, your own users who are your product, even, [3:03:32] even when they're not on Facebook. I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm going to land this plane pretty quickly, [3:03:40] Mr. Chairman. I, I, I, I mean, it's creepy. And I understand you make a lot of money doing it, [3:03:47] but I just wonder if, if our technology is greater than our humanity. I mean, let me ask you this final [3:03:56] question. Instagram is harmful to young people, isn't it? Senator, I disagree with that. That's [3:04:07] not what the research shows on balance. That doesn't mean that individual people don't have [3:04:11] issues and that there aren't things that, that we need to do to, to help provide the right tools for [3:04:16] people. But across all the research that we've done internally, I mean, this, this, the, uh, you know, [3:04:22] survey that, uh, the Senator previously cited, um, you know, there are 12 or 15 different categories [3:04:30] of harm that we asked, um, teens, if they felt that Instagram made it worse or better. [3:04:35] And across all of them, except for the one that, that, that, um, that Senator Hawley cited, [3:04:40] um, more people said that using Instagram. I've got to land this plane, Mr. Zuckerberg. [3:04:45] Either positive or. Let me, we just have to agree to disagree. If, if you believe that Instagram, [3:04:50] I know it's, I'm not saying it's intentional, but if you agree that Instagram, if you think that [3:04:56] Instagram is not hurting millions of our young people, particularly young teens, particularly [3:05:01] young women, you shouldn't be driving. It is. Thanks. Senator Butler. Thank you, Mr. Chair, [3:05:13] and, um, thank you to, um, our panelists who've come to, uh, have an important conversation with us. [3:05:21] Most importantly, I want to appreciate the families, uh, who have, uh, shown up to continue to be [3:05:27] remarkable, um, champions of your children and your loved ones for, um, being here. And in particular, [3:05:33] two California families, um, that I was able to just talk to on, on the break, the families of [3:05:40] Sammy Chapman from Los Angeles and Daniel Puerta, uh, from Santa Clarita. Uh, they are, are here today [3:05:47] and are doing some incredible work, uh, to not just protect the memory and legacy of their boys. Um, [3:05:56] but the work that they're doing is going to protect my nine-year-old. Uh, and that is, uh, indeed why [3:06:02] we're here. There are a couple questions that I want to ask, um, some individuals. Let me start with [3:06:08] a question for each of you. Uh, Mr. Citron, have you ever sat with a family and talked about their [3:06:15] experience and what they need from your product? Yes or no? Uh, yes, I have spoken with parents about how [3:06:22] we can build tools to help them. Mr. Spiegel, have you sat with families and young people to [3:06:26] talk about your products and what they need from your product? Yes, Senator. Mr. Chu? Yes, I just did [3:06:34] it two weeks ago, uh, for example. I don't want to know what you did for the hearing prep, Mr. Chu. I [3:06:39] just wanted to know if you did anything in terms of designing the product that you are creating. [3:06:50] Mr. Zuckerberg, um, have you sat with parents and young people to talk about how you design product, [3:06:56] uh, for, uh, your, uh, constituents, for your, uh, consumers? Yes, over the years I've had a lot of [3:07:02] conversations with parents. You know, that's interesting, Mr. Zuckerberg, because we talked [3:07:06] about this last night and you gave me a very different answer. Uh, I asked you this very question. [3:07:14] Well, I, I told you that I wasn't, that I didn't know what specific processes our company had. No, [3:07:21] Mr. Zuckerberg, you said to me that you had not. I, I must have misspoke. I, I want to give you the room to [3:07:30] misspeak, misspeak, Mr. Zuckerberg, but I asked you this very question. I asked all of you this [3:07:35] question, uh, and you told me a very different answer when we spoke, but I won't belabor it. Can [3:07:42] I, um, a number of you have talked about the, I'm sorry, X, uh, Ms. Jacarino, have you talked to [3:07:49] parents directly, young people, but about designing your product? Uh, as a new leader of X, the answer is [3:07:57] yes, I've spoken to them about the behavioral patterns because less than one percent of our users [3:08:05] are in that age group, but yes, I have spoken to them. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Spiegel, um, there are [3:08:12] a number of parents who, uh, children have been able to access, uh, illegal drugs on your platform. [3:08:19] What do you say to those parents? Senator, we are devastated that we cannot. To the parents. [3:08:28] What do you say to those parents, Mr. Spiegel? I'm so sorry that we have not been able to prevent [3:08:33] these tragedies. We work very hard to block all search terms related to drugs from our platform. [3:08:39] We proactively look for and detect drug related content. We remove it from our platform, preserve [3:08:44] it as evidence. We, and then we refer it to law enforcement, uh, for action. We've worked together [3:08:50] with nonprofits and with families on education campaigns because the scale of the fentanyl epidemic [3:08:54] is extraordinary. Over 100,000 people lost their lives last year and we believe people need to know [3:08:59] that one pill can kill. That campaign reached more than 200, was viewed more than 260 million times [3:09:05] on Snapchat. Mr. Spiegel, there are two fathers in this room who lost their sons. They're 16 years old. [3:09:14] Their children were able to get those pills from Snapchat. I know that there are statistics and I know [3:09:23] that there are good efforts. None of those efforts are keeping our kids from getting access to those [3:09:29] drugs on your platform. As a California company, all of you, I've talked with you about what it means [3:09:35] to be a good neighbor and what California families and American families should be expecting from you. [3:09:41] You owe them more than just a set of statistics and I look forward to you showing up on all pieces of [3:09:48] this legislation, all of you, showing up on all pieces of legislation to keep our children safe. Mr. [3:09:53] Zuckerberg, I want to come back to you. I, um, talked with you about being a parent to a young child, [3:10:03] um, who doesn't have a phone, doesn't, you know, is not on social media at all. Um, and one of the things [3:10:11] that I am deeply concerned with, uh, as, uh, a parent to a young black girl is the utilization of, uh, filters [3:10:24] on your platform that would suggest to young girls utilizing your platform the evidence that they are [3:10:34] not good enough as they are. I want to ask more specifically and refer to some [3:10:44] unredacted court documents that reveal that your own researchers, uh, concluded that these face filters [3:10:51] that mimic plastic surgery negatively impact youth mental health indeed, uh, and well-being. Why should we [3:11:01] believe, why should we believe that because that you are going to do more to protect young women and young [3:11:10] girls when it is that you give them the tools to affirm the self-hate that is spewed across your [3:11:18] platforms? Why is it that we should believe that you are committed to doing anything more to keep our [3:11:24] children safe? Sorry, there's a lot to unpack there. There is a lot of tools to express themselves in different [3:11:31] ways and people use face filters and different tools to make media and photos and videos that are fun [3:11:39] or interesting, um, across a lot of the different products that that that plastic surgery pins are good [3:11:45] tools to express creativity. Um, Senator, I'm not speaking to that specifically. Skin lightening tools [3:11:52] are tools to express creativity. This is the direct thing that I'm asking about. Yeah, I'm not defending [3:11:58] any specific one of those. I think that the ability to kind of filter and, um, and edit images is generally [3:12:08] a useful tool for expression. For that specifically, I'm not familiar with the study that you're referring [3:12:13] to, but we did make it so that we're not recommending this type of content to teams. I made no reference to [3:12:21] a study to court documents that revealed your knowledge of the impact of these types of filters [3:12:29] on young people generally, young girls in particular. I disagree with that characterization. I, I think [3:12:35] that there's with court documents. I, I'm, I haven't seen any document. Oh, okay. Mr. Mr. Zuckerberg, my, [3:12:42] my time is up. Um, I hope that you hear what is being offered to you and are prepared to step up and do [3:12:50] better. I know this Senate committee, uh, is going to do our work to hold you in great to greater account. [3:12:56] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Senator Tillis. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for being here. The, um, [3:13:04] I don't feel like I'm going to have an opportunity to ask a lot of questions. So I'm going to reserve [3:13:09] the right to, uh, submit some for the record. But I, I have heard, we've had hearings like this before. [3:13:17] I've been in the Senate for nine years. I've heard hearings like this before. I've heard horrible stories [3:13:23] about, uh, people who have died, committed suicide, uh, been embarrassed, um, every year. [3:13:31] We have an annual flogging every year. And what materially has occurred over the last nine years? [3:13:39] Um, do any of you all, uh, do it, just yes or no question. Do any of y'all participate in an [3:13:45] industry consortium trying to make this fundamentally safe across platforms? Yes or no, Mr. Zuckerberg? [3:13:54] There's a variety of organizations that we work. Do you participate in? Which organizations? [3:13:58] I should say, does anyone here not participate in an industry? If, I, I actually think it would be [3:14:03] immoral for you all to consider it a strategic advantage to keep safe or to keep private something [3:14:11] that would secure all these platforms to avoid this sort of problem. Do you all agree with that? [3:14:15] That anybody that would be saying you want ours because ours is the safest and these haven't figured out [3:14:20] the secret sauce that you as an industry realize this is an existential threat to you all if we [3:14:24] don't get it right, right? I mean, you've, you've got to secure your platforms. You've got to deal with [3:14:28] this. Do, do you not have an inherent mandate to do this? Because it would seem to me if you don't, [3:14:35] you're going to cease to exist. I mean, we could regulate you out of business if we wanted to. [3:14:41] And the reason I'm saying it may sound like a criticism. It's not a criticism. I think we have to [3:14:45] understand that there should be an inherent motivation for you to get this right or Congress [3:14:51] will make a decision that could potentially put you out of business. Here's the reason I have a [3:14:55] concern with that though. I, I just went on the internet while I was listening intently to all the [3:15:00] other members speaking and I found a dozen different platforms outside the United States, 10 of which are [3:15:09] in China, two of which are in, in Russia. Uh, their daily average subscriber or active membership [3:15:15] numbers in the billions. Well, people say you can't get on China's version of TikTok. I took me one quick [3:15:23] search on my favorite search engine to find out exactly how I could get an account on this platform [3:15:31] today. Um, and so the other thing that we have to keep in mind, I come from technology. I could figure out, [3:15:39] ladies and gentlemen, I could figure out how to influence your kid without them ever being on a [3:15:44] social media platform. I can randomly send texts and get a bite and then find out an email address [3:15:50] and get compromising information. Um, if we're, it is horrible to hear some of these stories that I [3:15:57] have shared the, and I've had these stories occur in my hometown down in North Carolina. But if we only [3:16:04] come here and make a point today and don't start focusing on making a difference, which requires people to [3:16:10] stop shouting and start listening and start passing language here, the bad actors are just going to [3:16:18] be off our shores. I have another question for you all. How much do, how many people roughly, if you [3:16:23] don't know the exact numbers, okay, roughly how many people do you have looking 24 hours a day at these [3:16:28] horrible images? And just go real quick with an answer down the line and filtering it out. Um, it's, [3:16:34] it's most of the 40,000 about people who work on safety and safety. And again? We have 2,300 people [3:16:40] all over the world. Okay. We have 40,000 trust and safety professionals around the world. We have [3:16:47] approximately 2,000 people dedicated to trust and safety and content moderation. Um, our, our platform is [3:16:53] much, much smaller than these folks. We have hundreds of people and it's, um, looking at content and 50% of our [3:16:58] workforce focused on it. I've only mentioned, these people are, have a horrible job. Many of them experience, [3:17:03] um, they, they have to get counseling for all the things they see. We have evil people out there. [3:17:10] And we're not going to fix this by shouting past or talking past each other. We're going to fix this [3:17:14] by every one of y'all being at the table and hopefully coming closer to what I heard one person say, [3:17:20] supporting a lot of the good bills, like one that I hope Senator Blackburn mentions when she gets a [3:17:24] chance to talk. But guys, if you're not at the table and securing these platforms, you're going to be on [3:17:29] it. And, and, and the reason why I'm not okay with that is that if we ultimately destroy your [3:17:37] ability to create value and drive you out of business, the evil people will find another way [3:17:43] to get to these children. And I do have to admit, I don't think my mom's watching this one, but there [3:17:49] is good. We, we can't look past good that is occurring. My mom who lives in Nashville, Tennessee, [3:17:55] and I talked yesterday and we talked about a Facebook post that she made a couple of days ago. [3:18:00] We don't let her talk to anybody else. That guy, that connects my 92 year old mother [3:18:05] with, uh, with her grandchildren and great grandchildren. That lets a kid who may feel [3:18:10] awkward in school to get into a group of people and relate to people. Let, let's not throw out [3:18:16] the good because we haven't all together focused on rooting out the bad. Now, I guarantee you, I could [3:18:24] go through some of your governance documents and find a reason to flog every single one of you because [3:18:28] you didn't place the emphasis on it that I think you should. But at the end of the day, [3:18:33] I farted, I find it hard to believe that any of you people started this business, [3:18:37] some of you in your college dorm rooms for the purposes of creating the evil that is being [3:18:42] perpetrated on your platforms. But I hope that every single waking hour, you're doing everything you can [3:18:50] to reduce it. You're not going to be able to eliminate it. And I hope that there are some [3:18:54] enterprising young tech people out there today that are going to go to parents and say, [3:18:59] ladies and gentlemen, your children have a deadly weapon. They have a potentially deadly weapon, [3:19:07] whether it's a phone or a tablet. You have to secure it. You can't assume that they're going to be [3:19:15] honest and say that they're 16 when they're 12. Uh, we all have to recognize that we have a [3:19:21] responsibility to play and you guys are at the tip of the spear. So I hope that we can get to a point [3:19:28] to where we are moving these bills. If you got a problem with them, state your problem. Let's fix it. [3:19:35] No is not an answer. Uh, and, and know that I want the United States to be the beacon for innovation, [3:19:43] to be the beacon for safety and to prevent people from using other options that have existed since the [3:19:49] internet has existed to exploit people and count me in as somebody that will try and help out. [3:19:55] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Senator Tillis. Next is Senator Rossoff. Thank you, [3:20:00] Mr. Chairman. And, uh, thank you to our witnesses today. Uh, Mr. Zuckerberg, I want to begin by just [3:20:08] asking a simple question, which is, do you want kids to use your platform more or less? Well, [3:20:14] we don't want people under the age of 13 using- Do you want teenagers 13 and up to use your platform more [3:20:20] or less? Um, well, we would like to build a product that is useful and that people want to use more. [3:20:26] My time is, is going to be limited. So it's just, do you want them to use it more or less? Teenagers, [3:20:32] 13 to 17 years old, do you want them using meta products more or less? I'd like them to be useful [3:20:38] enough that they want to use them more. You want them to use it more. I think herein we have one of the [3:20:48] fundamental challenges. In fact, you have a fiduciary obligation, do you not, to try to get kids to use your [3:20:55] platform more? It depends on how you define that. Um, we, we obviously are a business, um, but- [3:21:03] I'm sorry, Mr. Zuckerberg, just our time is, it's not, it's self-evident that you have a fiduciary [3:21:08] obligation to get your users, including users under 18, to use and engage with your platform more [3:21:16] rather than less, correct? Over the long term, but in the near term, we often take a lot of steps, [3:21:22] including we, we made a change to show less videos that, that on the platform that reduced amount of [3:21:28] time by more than 50 million hours. Okay, but if your shareholders ask you, Mark, I wouldn't, [3:21:34] Mr. Zuckerberg here, but your shareholders might be on a first-name basis with you. Mark, [3:21:37] are you trying to get kids to use meta products more or less? You'd say more, right? Well, [3:21:43] I would say that over the long term, we're trying to create the most- Yeah, I mean, let, let's look, [3:21:46] so you, the, the 10K you filed with the SEC, a few things I want to note. Here are some quotes, [3:21:50] and this is a, a filing that you signed, correct? Yes. Yeah. Our financial performance has been and [3:21:57] will continue to be significantly determined by our success in adding, retaining, and engaging active [3:22:01] users. Here's another quote. If our users decrease their level of engagement with our products, our [3:22:07] revenue, financial results, and business may be significantly harmed. Here's another quote. We [3:22:11] believe that some users, particularly younger users, are aware of and actively engaging with other [3:22:16] products and services, similar to as a substitute for ours. It continues in the event that users [3:22:21] increasingly engage with other products and services, we may experience a decline in use [3:22:24] and engagement in key demographics or more broadly, in which case our business would likely be harmed. [3:22:30] You have an obligation as the chief executive to encourage your team to get kids to use your [3:22:39] platform more. Fundamental- Senator, I think this is- I mean, I, I, is that not self-evident? You have a fiduciary [3:22:47] obligation to your shareholders to get kids to use your platform more. I, I think it's not- [3:22:50] I, I think that the thing that's not intuitive is the, the direction is to make the products more [3:22:56] useful so that way people want to use them more. We don't give our, the team is running the Instagram [3:23:02] feed or the Facebook feed a goal to increase the amount of time that people spend. Yeah, but you [3:23:06] don't dispute and your, and your 10k makes clear you want your users engaging more and using more [3:23:12] the platform. And I think this gets to the root of the challenge because it's the overwhelming view [3:23:18] of the public, certainly in my home state of Georgia, and we've had some discussions about [3:23:24] the underlying science, that this platform is harmful for children. I mean, you are familiar with, [3:23:32] and not just your platform, by the way, social media in general, 2023 report from the Surgeon [3:23:37] Journal about the impact of social media on kids' mental health, which cited evidence that kids who spend [3:23:41] more than three hours a day on social media have double the risk of poor mental health outcomes, [3:23:46] including depression and anxiety. Are you familiar with that Surgeon General report and the underlying [3:23:49] study? I, I read the report, yes. Do you dispute it? No, but I think it's important to characterize [3:23:56] it correctly. I think what he was flagging in the report is that there seems to be a correlation, [3:24:01] and obviously the mental health issue is very important, so it's something that needs to be- [3:24:05] Yeah, we know, the thing is that's, that's, everyone knows there's a correlation. Everyone knows that kids [3:24:10] who spend a lot of time, too much time on your platforms are at risk, and it's not just the [3:24:16] mental health issues. I mean, let, let me ask you another question. Is your platform safe for kids? [3:24:21] I believe it is, but there's a- Hold on a second. [3:24:23] But there's an important difference between correlation and causation. [3:24:25] You, because we're not going to be able to get anywhere. We want to work in a productive, [3:24:31] open, honest, and collaborative way with the private sector to pass legislation that will protect [3:24:37] Americans, that will protect American children above all, and that will allow businesses to [3:24:42] thrive in this country. If we don't start with an open, honest, candid, realistic assessment of the [3:24:46] issues, we can't do that. The first point is, you want kids to use the platform more. In fact, [3:24:51] you have an obligation to. But if you're not willing to acknowledge that it's a dangerous place for [3:24:57] children, the internet is a dangerous place for children, not just your platform, isn't it? [3:25:01] Isn't the internet a dangerous place for children? I think it can be. Yeah, there's both great things [3:25:05] that people can do, and there are harms that we need to work- Yeah, it's a dangerous place for children. [3:25:09] There are families here who have lost their children. There are families across the country [3:25:12] whose children have engaged in self-harm, who have experienced low self-esteem, who have been sold [3:25:18] deadly pills on the internet. The internet's a dangerous place for children, and your platforms [3:25:23] are dangerous places for children. Do you agree? I think that there are harms that we need to [3:25:28] work to mitigate. Okay. I mean, I'm not going to, I think overall- Why not? Why not? Why not just acknowledge it? [3:25:33] Why, why do we have to do the, the very careful- Well, I just, I disagree with the [3:25:37] characterization that you have. Which character, that the internet's a dangerous place for children? [3:25:40] Um, I, I think you're, you're trying to characterize our products as inherently dangerous, [3:25:45] and I think that- Inherent or not, your, your, your products are places where children can experience [3:25:50] harm. They can experience harm to their mental health. They can be sold drugs. They can be preyed [3:25:55] upon by predators. They're, you know, they're dangerous places. And, and, and yet, you have an obligation to [3:26:03] promote the use of these platforms by children. And all I'm, all I'm trying to suggest to you, Mr. [3:26:09] Zuckerberg, and my, my time is, is running short, is that in order for you to succeed, you and your [3:26:17] colleagues here, we have to acknowledge these basic truths. We have to be able to come before [3:26:22] the American people, the American public, the people in my state of Georgia, and acknowledge [3:26:26] the internet is dangerous, including your platforms. There are predators lurking. There are [3:26:31] drugs being sold. There are harms to mental health that are taking a huge toll on kids' quality of [3:26:38] life. And yet, you have this incentive, not just you, Mr. Zuckerberg, all of you have an incentive to [3:26:44] boost, maximize use, utilization, and engagement. And that is where public policy has to step in [3:26:51] to make sure that these platforms are safe for kids. So kids are not dying, so kids are not overdosing, [3:26:56] so kids are not cutting themselves or killing themselves, because they're spending all day scrolling [3:27:02] instead of playing outside. And I appreciate all of you for your testimony. We will continue to engage [3:27:08] as we develop this legislation. Thank you. Senator from Tennessee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you [3:27:18] for, to each of you for coming. And I know some of you had to be subpoenaed to get here, but we do [3:27:26] appreciate that you all are here. Mr. Chu, I want to come to you first. We've heard that you're looking at [3:27:32] putting a headquarters in Nashville and likewise in Silicon Valley and Seattle. And what you're going [3:27:39] to find probably is that the welcome mat is not going to be rolled out for you in Nashville like [3:27:45] it would be in California. There are a lot of people in Tennessee that are very concerned about the way [3:27:52] TikTok is basically building dossiers on our kids, the way they are building those on their virtual you. [3:28:02] And also that that information is held in China, in Beijing, as you responded to Senator Blumenthal and I [3:28:10] last year in reference to that question. And we also know that a major music label yesterday [3:28:18] said they were pulling all of their content off your site because of your issues on payment, [3:28:25] on artificial intelligence, and because of the negative impact on our kids' mental health. [3:28:33] So we will see how that progresses. Mr. Zuckerberg, I want to come to you. We have just had Senator [3:28:42] Blumenthal and I, of course, have had some internal documents and emails that have come our way. One [3:28:48] of the things that really concerned me is that you referred to your young users in terms of their lifetime [3:28:57] value of being roughly $270 per teenager. And each of you should be looking at these kids, [3:29:08] their T-shirts they're wearing today say, I'm worth more than $270. We've got some standing up in those T-shirts. [3:29:25] Now, and some of the children from our state, some of the children, the parents that we have worked with, [3:29:34] just to think whether it is Becca Schmidt, David Mollock, Sarah Flatt, Annalise Shote, would you say that life [3:29:48] is only worth $270? What could possibly lead you? I mean, I listen to that. I know you're a dad, [3:29:58] I'm a mom, I'm a grandmom. And how could you possibly even have that thought? It is astounding [3:30:09] to me. And I think this is one of the reasons that states, 42 states are now suing you because of [3:30:19] features that they consider to be addictive that you are pushing forward. And in the emails that we've [3:30:27] got from 2021 that go from August to November, there is the staff plan that is being discussed. And [3:30:35] Antigone Davis, Nick Clegg, Sheryl Sandberg, Chris Cox, Alex Schultz, Adam Masseri are all on this chain [3:30:43] of emails on the well-being plan. And then we get to one, Nick did email Mark for emphasis to emphasize [3:30:52] his support for the package, but it sounds like it lost out to various other pressures and priorities. [3:31:00] See, this is what bothers us. Children are not your priority. Children are your product. Children, [3:31:10] you see as a way to make money and children protecting children in this virtual space. [3:31:21] You made a conscious decision, even though Nick Clegg and others were going through the process [3:31:31] of saying, this is what we do. These documents are really illuminating. And it just shows me that [3:31:42] growing this business, expanding your revenue, what you were going to put on those quarterly filings, [3:31:51] that was the priority. The children were not. It's very clear. I want to talk with you about the [3:32:01] pedophile ring because that came up earlier and the Wall Street Journal reported on that. And one of the [3:32:09] things that we found out was after that became evident, then you didn't take that content down. [3:32:16] And it was content that showed that teens were for sale and were offering themselves to older men. [3:32:23] And you didn't take it down because it didn't violate your community standards. Do you know how often a [3:32:30] child is bought or sold for sex in this country? Every two minutes, every two minutes, a child [3:32:40] is bought or sold for sex. That's not my stat. That is a TBI stat. Now, finally, this content [3:32:51] was taken down after a congressional staffer went to Meta's global head of safety. So would you please [3:33:00] explain to me and to all these parents why explicit predatory content does not violate your platform's [3:33:09] terms of service or your community standards? Sure, Senator. Let me try to address all the [3:33:15] things that you just said. It does violate our standards. We work very hard to take it down. [3:33:20] Didn't take it down. Well, we've reported, I think it's more than 26 million examples of this kind [3:33:26] of content. Didn't take it down until a congressional staffer brought it up. It may be that in this case, [3:33:31] we made a mistake and missed something. I think you make a lot of mistakes. [3:33:34] But we have leading teams that identify more than... I want to talk with you about your Instagram [3:33:40] creators program and about the push. We found out through these documents that you actually are [3:33:46] pushing forward because you want to bring kids in early. You see these younger teenagers as valuable, [3:33:56] but an untapped audience. Quoting from the emails and suggesting teens are actually household influencers [3:34:03] to bring their younger siblings into your platform, into Instagram. [3:34:10] Now, how can you ensure that Instagram creators, your product, your program does not facilitate illegal [3:34:20] activities when you fail to remove content pertaining to the sale of minors? And it is happening once [3:34:31] every two minutes in this country. Senator, our tools for identifying that kind of content are industry [3:34:39] leading. That doesn't mean we're perfect. There are definitely issues that we [3:34:42] have, but we continue to invest... Mr. Zuckerberg, yes, there are a lot that is slipping through. [3:34:48] It appears that you're trying to be the premier sex trafficking site... Of course not, Senator. [3:34:53] In this country. Senator, that's ridiculous. No, it is not ridiculous. [3:34:56] Of course we don't want this content on our platforms. [3:34:59] Why don't you take it down? We do take it down. We are here discussing, we need you all to work with us. [3:35:05] No, you're not. You are not. And the problem is we've been working on this. Senator Welch is over [3:35:14] there. We've been working on this stuff for a decade. You have an army of lawyers and lobbyists [3:35:20] that have fought us on this every step of the way. You work with NetChoice, the Cato Institute, [3:35:26] Taxpayers Protection Alliance, and Chamber of Progress to actually fight our bipartisan legislation [3:35:36] to keep kids safe online. So are you going to stop funding these groups? Are you going to stop [3:35:43] lobbying against this and come to the table and work with us? Yes or no? Senator, we have a... [3:35:48] Yes or no? [3:35:51] Of course we'll work with you on the legislation. Okay. The door is open. We've got all these bills. [3:35:57] You need to come to the table. Each and every one of you need to come to the table. [3:36:03] And you need to work with us. Kids are dying. Senator Welch. I want to thank my colleague, [3:36:14] Senator Blackburn, for her decade of work on this. I actually have some optimism. There is a consensus [3:36:26] today that didn't exist, say 10 years ago, that there is a profound threat to children, to mental [3:36:34] health, to safety. There's not a dispute. That was in debate before. That's a starting point. Secondly, [3:36:46] we're identifying concrete things that can be done in four different areas. One is industry standards. [3:36:53] two is legislation. Three are the courts. And then four is a proposal that Senator Bennett, Senator Graham, [3:37:06] myself and Senator Warren have to establish an agency, a governmental agency whose responsibility would be [3:37:14] to engage in this on a systematic, regular basis with proper resources. And I just want to go through [3:37:22] those. I appreciate the industry standard decisions and steps that you've had, you've taken in your [3:37:29] companies. But it's not enough. And that's what I think you're hearing from my colleagues. Like for [3:37:36] instance, where there are layoffs in it is in the trusted, the trust and verify programs. That's alarming [3:37:45] because it looks like there is a reduction in emphasis on protecting things. Like you just added, [3:37:52] Mr. Iaccarino, 100 employees in Texas in this category. And how many did you have before? [3:38:00] The company is just coming through a significant restructuring. So we've increased the number of [3:38:08] trust and safety employees and agents all over the world by at least 10% so far in the last 14 months. [3:38:15] And we will continue to do so specifically in Austin, Texas. All right. Mr. Zuckerberg, [3:38:19] my understanding is there have been layoffs in that area as well. There's added jobs there at Twitter, [3:38:26] but at Metta, have there been reductions in that? There have been across the board, [3:38:30] not really focused on that area. I think our investment is relatively consistent over the [3:38:36] last couple of years. We invested almost five billion dollars in this work last year. And I [3:38:41] think this year will be on the same order of magnitude. All right. And another question that's [3:38:45] come up is when, to the horror of a user of any of your platforms, somebody has an image on there [3:38:53] that's very compromising, often of a sexual nature. Is there any reason in the world why a person who wants [3:39:00] to take that down can't have a very simple same day response to have it taken down? [3:39:08] I'll start with Twitter. Oh, Nat. I'm sorry, Senator. I was taking notes. Could you repeat the question? [3:39:16] Well, there's a lot of examples of a young person finding out about an image [3:39:23] that is of them and really compromises them and actually can create suicidal thoughts. And they [3:39:30] want to call up or they want to send an email and say, take it down. I mean, why is it not possible for [3:39:36] that to be responded to immediately? Well, we all strive to take down any type of violative content [3:39:44] or disturbing content immediately. At X, we have increased our capabilities with a two-step reporting process. [3:39:51] But shouldn't that just be a standard? If I'm a parent or I'm a kid and I want this down, [3:39:56] shouldn't there be methods in place where it comes down? You can see what the image is. [3:40:02] Yes. An ecosystem-wide standard [3:40:07] would improve and actually enhance the experience for users at all our platforms. All right. [3:40:12] There actually is an organization that I think a number of the companies up here are a part of [3:40:16] called Take It Down. It's some technology that we and a few others built. All right. So you all are [3:40:22] in favor of that because that is going to give some peace of mind to people. All right. It really, [3:40:27] really matters. I don't have that much time. So we've talked about the legislation and Senator [3:40:35] Whitehouse had asked you to get back with your position on Section 230, which I'll go to in a minute. But [3:40:40] I would welcome each of you responding as to your company's position on the bills that are under [3:40:48] consideration in this hearing. All right. I'm just asking you to do that. Third, the court. This big [3:40:57] question of Section 230. And today, I'm pretty inspired by the presence of the parents who have turned [3:41:06] their extraordinary grief into action and hope that other parents may not have to suffer what for them [3:41:13] is a devastating for everyone, a devastating loss. Senator Whitehouse asked you all to get back [3:41:19] very concretely about Section 230 and your position on that. But it's an astonishing benefit that your [3:41:28] industry has that no other industry has. They just don't have to worry about being held accountable in [3:41:36] court if they're negligent. So you've got some explaining to do. And I'm just reinforcing Senator [3:41:45] Whitehouse's request that you get back specifically about that. And then finally, I want to ask about this [3:41:52] notion. It's this idea of a federal agency who's resourced and whose job is to be dealing with [3:42:01] public interest matters that are really affected by big tech. It's extraordinary what has happened in [3:42:08] our economy with technology. And your companies represent innovation and success. But just as when the [3:42:17] railroads were ascendant and were in charge and ripping off farmers because of practices they were able to get [3:42:23] away with, just as when Wall Street was flying high, but there was no one regulating blue sky laws. We now have a [3:42:30] whole new world in the economy. And Mr. Zuckerberg, I remember you testifying in the Energy and Commerce Committee [3:42:37] and I asked you your position on the concept of a federal regulatory agency. My recollection is that you were [3:42:44] positive about that. Is that still the case? I think it could be a reasonable solution. There are [3:42:53] obviously pros and cons to doing that versus through the normal, the current structure of having different [3:42:59] regulatory agencies focused on specific issues. But because a lot of the things trade off against [3:43:03] each other, like one of the topics that we talked about today is encryption. And that's obviously really [3:43:07] important for privacy and security. Right. Can we just go down the line? I'm at the end, but thank you. [3:43:12] Mr. Yacrimino? Senator, I think the industry initiative to keep those conversations going [3:43:19] would be something X would be very, very proactive about. If you think about our support of the Report [3:43:24] Act, the SHIELD Act, the Stop CSAM Act, our support of the Project Safe Childhood Act, I think our [3:43:30] intentions are clear to participate in the lead here. Mr. Hsu? Yeah. Senator, we support national privacy [3:43:36] legislation, for example, so that sounds like a good idea. We just need to understand what it means. [3:43:40] All right. Mr. Spiegel? Senator, we'll continue to work with your team and we'd certainly be open to [3:43:46] exploring the right regulatory body for big technology. But the idea of a regulatory body [3:43:50] is something that you can see has merit. Yes, Senator. And Mr. Sifrin? Yeah, we're very open to [3:43:59] working with you and our peers and anybody on helping make the internet a safer place. You know, [3:44:05] I think you mentioned this is not a one platform problem. Right. So we do look to collaborate with other [3:44:09] companies and with nonprofits and the government. Okay. All right. Thank you all. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. [3:44:14] Thank you, Senator Welch. Well, we're going to conclude this hearing and thank you all for coming today. [3:44:20] You probably have your scorecard out there. You've met at least 20 members of this committee and have [3:44:25] your own impressions of their questioning and approach and the like. But the one thing I want to make [3:44:29] clear as chairman of this committee for the last three years is this was an extraordinary vote on an [3:44:36] extraordinary issue a year ago. We passed five bills unanimously in this committee. You heard all [3:44:43] the senators. Every spot on the political spectrum was covered. Every single senator voted unanimously in [3:44:51] favor of the five pieces of legislation we've discussed today. It ought to tell everyone who follows [3:44:56] Capitol Hill and Washington a pretty stark message. We get it and we live it. As parents and grandparents, [3:45:05] we know what our daughters and sons and others are going through. They cannot cope. They cannot handle [3:45:12] this issue on their own. They're counting on us as much as they're counting on the industry to do the [3:45:18] responsible thing. And some will leave with impressions of our witnesses and the companies they represent [3:45:24] that you're right as an American citizen. But you ought to also leave with the determination to keep the [3:45:29] spotlight on us to do something. Not just to hold a hearing, bring out a good strong crowd of supporters [3:45:37] for change, but to get something done. No excuses. No excuses. We've got to bring this to a vote. What I [3:45:45] found in my time in the House and the Senate is that's the day that's the moment of reckoning. [3:45:50] Speech is notwithstanding, press releases and the like. The moment of reckoning is when we call a vote on [3:45:56] these measures. It's time to do that. I don't believe there's ever been a moment in America's [3:46:01] wonderful history when a business or industry has stepped up and said regulate us. Put some legal [3:46:06] limits on us. Businesses exist by and large to be profitable. And I think that we got to get behind [3:46:13] that and say profitability at what cost. Senator Kennedy, a Republican colleague said, [3:46:18] is our technology greater than our humanity? I think that is a fundamental question that he asked. [3:46:25] What I would add to it are our politics greater than technology. We're going to find out. I want [3:46:32] to thank a few people before we close up here. I've got several staffers who've worked so hard on this. [3:46:38] Alexandra Gelber. Thank you very much, Alexandra. Jeff Hanson. Scott Jordan. The last point I'll make, [3:46:48] Mr. Zuckerberg, is just a little advice to you. I think your opening statement on mental health needs to [3:46:55] be explained because I don't think it makes any sense. There is an apparent in this room who's had [3:47:00] a child that's gone through an emotional experience like this that wouldn't tell you and me. They [3:47:06] changed right in front of my eyes. They changed. They hold themselves up in their room. They no longer [3:47:11] reached out to their friends. They lost all interest in school. These are mental health consequences [3:47:16] that I think come with the abuse of this right to have access to this kind of technology. So I will [3:47:23] jump. I see my colleagues. You want to say a word? I think it was a good hearing. I hope something [3:47:28] positive comes from it. Thank you all for coming. The hearing record's going to remain open for a [3:47:32] week for statements and questions may be submitted by senators by 5 p.m. on Wednesday. Once again, [3:47:39] thanks to the witnesses for coming. The hearing stands adjourned.