About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Travis McMichael Gives Testimony In Ahmaud Arbery Shooting Trial — NBC News from NBC News, published June 14, 2026. The transcript contains 28,372 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"you practice level one officer presence? Yes, that was anytime that we were on the water was obviously level one. So I guess my question is, would you practice these various levels? Yes. Okay, how would you practice some of these levels that start to get into physicality or higher verbal acuity? In"
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: you practice level one officer presence? Yes, that was anytime that we were on the water was obviously level one. So I guess my question is, would you practice these various levels? Yes. Okay, how would you practice some of these levels that start to get into physicality or higher verbal
[00:00:21] Speaker 2: acuity? In training? Yeah. So in training, we would, going into level four or whatever, we would actually have a thing called red man suit. And we would, Fridays usually we bring everybody together and then we would have to teach the techniques of the proper way to do this, because take a baton and strike somebody in the head, that's obviously deadly force. We do not want that to happen if, God forbid, that comes to it. So we have to teach, you know, you strike somebody on a meaty portion of the body, how to properly do this stuff. And the best way to do it is to get out there and do it. So we would do red man training, which these guys would exercise this on each other. Level four, level five, we would do handcuffs, practicing normal application of handcuffs. And then the entire time, we're also doing level one and two. And if, say, me and you were in a scenario that we built a scenario, it depended on if you were the boarding officer, how you interacted with me would be how I would interact back with you. So if you came in without another acronym, acronym we use was called LEAPS.
[00:01:26] Speaker 1: Okay. What's LEAPS?
[00:01:28] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:01:28] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:01:28] Speaker 2: So empathize.
[00:01:30] Speaker 1: Okay. So empathize.
[00:01:32] Speaker 2: Okay. Ask questions. Okay. Paraphrase. All right. And, is that what you're saying?
[00:01:38] Speaker 1: Okay. That's the acronym is?
[00:01:40] Speaker 2: Oh, L-E-A-P-S. L-E-A-P-S.
[00:01:42] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. Okay.
[00:01:44] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay.
[00:01:46] Speaker 2: What's E? So empathize. Okay.
[00:01:49] Speaker 1: Ask questions.
[00:01:50] Speaker ?: Okay. Paraphrase.
[00:01:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Paraphrase.
[00:01:54] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:01:55] Speaker 1: Yes.
[00:01:56] Speaker 2: Summarize.
[00:01:57] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:01:58] Speaker 1: And you were saying you would use LEAPS in your training? Yes.
[00:02:13] Speaker 2: You would teach LEAPS? Yes. All right. You go into a situation and jump on a boat or a scenario like this that you get somebody that's a straw that's very upset. Instead of going in, "Hey, calm down. I'm here to do this." There's other ways to do it. "Hey, what's going on? What's wrong? What happened?" Well, then say you explain to me what's happened, "My dog just died." You go to emphasize, "Yeah, I've had that happen too. It sucks. I'm sorry that this has happened."
[00:02:43] Speaker 1: It then goes into -- You're saying empathize and you just said emphasize. Did I admit here? Your empathy? Is that what you're talking about? Having empathy with somebody? Yes. I wrote down empathize, but you just said emphasize. Maybe it was a slip. Okay. But you're saying you would try to share in one's experience?
[00:03:03] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. Yes. And then ask questions. You know, ask what's going on with it. You know, pretty much de-arming somebody, you know, and calming them down, calming them because once again the whole goal is to de-escalate, keep anything from arrival.
[00:03:16] Speaker 1: All right. So, is it that this can lead to de-escalation? Yes.
[00:03:21] Speaker 2: Absolutely.
[00:03:22] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:03:23] Speaker ?: Okay. Have you ever had to use officer presence on the job? Yes. Every day. Okay. Every day that we were doing it. Did you ever use verbal command on the job? Very much so, yes.
[00:03:40] Speaker 1: Did you use control technique on the job? I've had to. Okay. Did you ever have to use one of your aggressive response techniques, using a baton to hit somebody
[00:03:46] Speaker 2: on the meaty portions of the meaty portions of their body? Never had. Did you ever have to use intermediate?
[00:03:49] Speaker 1: I did not. Or deadly force? No.
[00:03:52] Speaker 2: Did you ever have any training on hand-to-hand combat? Yes. Did you have any training on hand-to-hand combat? Yes. Can you have any training on how to retain your weapon?
[00:03:57] Speaker 1: Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yes. Yes. I've had to. I've had to. Okay. Did you ever have to use one of your aggressive response techniques, using a baton to hit somebody on the meaty portions of their body? Never had. Did you ever have to use intermediate?
[00:04:13] Speaker ?: I did not. Or deadly force? No.
[00:04:16] Speaker 1: Did you have any training on hand-to-hand combat? Yes. Did you have any training on how to retain your weapon? Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that?
[00:04:25] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:04:26] Speaker 2: So we carried, there was on regular boardings, if it wasn't a, like I said earlier, an HVA, or a high-value asset, which we'd stay on the boat. And then we had automatic weapons for that. It's mounted, crew-mounted weapons, what they call it. It didn't pertain. But for weapons retention is what we're talking about. We were trained on the personal defense weapon, which is our pistol. We carried an M16 and we also carried an 870 riot shotgun, which is a small 14-inch barrel shotgun.
[00:04:57] Speaker 1: Okay. And did you, what was the type of training that you had about weapon retention? What was it that you were training one another to do?
[00:05:10] Speaker 2: It's how to keep your weapon from going into the hands of somebody that's trying to take it from you. Is this something that you would practice? I was, yes, absolutely. Okay.
[00:05:23] Speaker 1: What is the concern about not retaining your weapon?
[00:05:29] Speaker 2: That it would, one, that you would not be able to protect yourself in a daily force situation, and also that somebody taking a weapon from you would use it on you or others.
[00:05:40] Speaker 1: Did you ever have any special training with a shotgun? Yes. Did it include how to retain it? Yes. Okay. Did it include how to use it to de-escalate a situation?
[00:05:52] Speaker 2: Yes, with any weapon, yeah. It was the same as the other weapons. And explain that.
[00:05:57] Speaker 1: Explain how do you use a weapon to de-escalate a situation?
[00:06:00] Speaker 2: So, in a situation like a, we would consider in a level one, which was officer's presence. In certain situations, like if you come on a boat and you had unaccounted for personnel, or what they call known safety hazards, which would, to have your weapon drawn, and sometimes a third eye, which was right here, or it was easily, it was readily accessible, where you didn't have to take it out of the holster. In this situation, that was still level one, because it was officer's presence. You see somebody with that weapon, that's officer's presence. And then also, if you had to draw your weapon on someone, other than that, was if there was a reasonable possibility that the use of daily force may be authorized, which was another key component on that. All right, show me about that.
[00:06:51] Speaker 1: A reasonable possibility. Yes. That deadly force, what?
[00:07:00] Speaker 2: May be authorized. Okay. And what does that mean to you? It means, from the trainer we had, that if you go into a situation that you are not aware of, that you don't know if someone's armed, or if they have made threats, or made threatening gestures, and you have a weapon that's obviously holstered, or you don't have it out of there, and they come towards you, or make these threatening gestures, which was closing the deadly force triangle, or the attack triangle, then you are authorized to draw that weapon.
[00:07:33] Speaker 1: All right, what is the attack triangle?
[00:07:36] Speaker 2: It's a subject's actions, weapon, and opportunity.
[00:07:42] Speaker 1: Okay. Action, weapon, and opportunity. And how does that work?
[00:07:50] Speaker 2: So, say a scenario where you have threatened me. So, you're threatening me, you can put that under subject's actions. Weapon, what we're taught is everybody has a weapon. Hands, fists are a weapon. So, an attack triangle would be, you're threatening me, you are close enough to attack, which is the opportunity, and then, obviously, you make the threat, or you make the gesture that you're going to attack, throw the fist back. That is, at that point, an attack, the attack triangle's closed, then I can use level, which would be level four, level five in that situation. Okay. And there's also a deadly force triangle, which goes into, which is, uh, subject's actions.
[00:08:37] Speaker 1: Yes, go ahead.
[00:08:38] Speaker 2: Weapon, and opportunity. And then, under weapons, maximum effective range, and if it's readily accessible.
[00:08:49] Speaker 1: You're talking about range, what do you mean by that?
[00:08:51] Speaker 2: If you, if you have a baseball bat, and you're 50 yards away from me, the weapon is no longer, it doesn't close triangle because the maximum effective range is no longer there. You're not going to harm me with that bat at 50 yards. If you are 50 yards away from me with a, if I could see a gun on you, and you're making the threats, the gestures, then the deadly force triangle's closed.
[00:09:23] Speaker 1: Okay. Well, we, I asked you earlier if you have ever been trained to use a firearm to deescalate a situation. Is that something that you have trained to do? To, to use it to deescalate, but not to actually shoot somebody with it?
[00:09:38] Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that was it. Under level one, doing the, having it, having it out of holster, or having the draw down if, if need be, if you thought that deadly force may be authorized. When you say draw down, what do you mean? To actually have it pointed at you, or at the subject, or anybody that is, that is causing the threat, or that may be the threat at that time.
[00:10:05] Speaker 1: And when you say draw down and pointed at somebody, does that mean that you are in fact going to pull the trigger?
[00:10:11] Speaker 2: The possibility is there, but obviously you're trying to deescalate the situation.
[00:10:16] Speaker 1: So, in your experience, can pointing a gun at somebody deescalate a situation? Yes. How so?
[00:10:23] Speaker 2: Well, if you pull a gun on someone, which time they've realized that this is, if it's a threat, or if you don't know what's going on in the situation, and you have, you pull a weapon on someone. From what I've learned in my training, that usually that calls people to back off, or to realize what's happening, compel compliance.
[00:10:47] Speaker 1: Outside of your Coast Guard life and your Coast Guard work, did you slowly carry firearms? Yes. Did you ever have to use those firearms before for protection? Yes, I have. All right. Can you tell me about that? One time.
[00:11:24] Speaker 3: Relevancy.
[00:11:25] Speaker 1: It's relevant because he is carrying a gun in this case. He is carrying a gun, I believe, through this testimony, we'll establish why. And the fact that he's had experiences with having to do this before informs him and informs the decisions that he makes as a person under these circumstances. So the fact that he's been in situations where he's had to use his gun to protect himself before, informs his decisions on also February 23rd.
[00:12:03] Speaker 3: Relevance. Relevance. Yeah, it's sustained. To what he did under these circumstances.
[00:12:07] Speaker 4: You're talking about something, you're talking about something he was doing in the Coast Guard.
[00:12:10] Speaker 1: No, I'm talking about him as a private citizen where he's been out with a firearm, carrying a firearm before, where he's had to use it to protect himself.
[00:12:23] Speaker 4: Ladies and gentlemen, you could take a step into the jury room, please.
[00:12:33] Speaker 2: So I'll rise for the jury.
[00:12:53] Speaker 4: All right, I was following it as part of his Coast Guard training and experience. You're talking about something different?
[00:13:18] Speaker 1: Yeah, I transitioned, Judge. You may not have heard me. I said, all right, now I want to talk about outside of the Coast Guard. Not law enforcement Coast Guard, but you just, in your regular life, outside of the Coast Guard, you have a firearm, you carry firearms, and have you ready to use a firearm to protect yourself before outside of the Coast Guard, just as a regular citizen?
[00:13:41] Speaker 4: Is it reported? I mean, give me a proffer.
[00:13:45] Speaker 1: Oh, he will testify that he's had two circumstances where a person has come up to him, one at an ATM, where he had to go towards his gun, and it had the effect that he wanted on the person. They ran away, deterred them. And the second, he was sitting in his car, and the gentleman tried to carjack him, and he had to retrieve his gun and take it out, and it deterred the person, and the person ran away. This has now then informed him of how using his gun can de-escalate situations in his private citizen life as well, and that it can have that effect that ultimately, you know, can de-escalate the situation and protect himself from the state.
[00:14:30] Speaker 3: Well, neither of these instances involved the victim in this particular case. The fact that some guy came up to him at the ATM, and I'm not clear what he did with his gun. He pointed it at this person or did something else. And being carjacked, I'm unaware of any police report where he reported he'd been carjacked at all. So I'm not sure if there's a 9-1-1 call here that we don't have access to, or some police report that we've not been given regarding this. The state is unaware of both of these instances, and it's not really relevant to the reasonableness analysis that the jurors are going to have to make as far as -- so in the past, when I've been robbed in an ATM or carjacked by someone, I defended myself with my handgun, so it's okay for me to pull a handgun out while I'm trying to force compliance for someone to talk to me. They're totally not equal on any lay level whatsoever. So I'm not sure about the relevance or how it comes into play in this case.
[00:15:38] Speaker 4: So it's like it may be addressed on cross-examination. I'll go ahead and permit it. Okay, go ahead. I'm sorry, we can go ahead and get the panel. Thank you.
[00:16:04] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:16:29] Speaker 5: All right.
[00:16:59] Speaker 4: All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. We are ready to get back to the evidence. Mr. Schaefer.
[00:17:34] Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Jeff.
[00:17:36] Speaker 1: We were talking a little bit about now moving away from Coast Guard duty and just being a citizen here. Do you own firearms?
[00:17:47] Speaker 2: I do.
[00:17:48] Speaker 1: Have you ever been in a situation where you had to use your personal firearm to protect yourself?
[00:17:54] Speaker 2: I have.
[00:17:58] Speaker 1: Oh, Travis, yeah, I put that to you. Thank you. Sorry. Can you tell us a little bit about the circumstances of the first time?
[00:18:05] Speaker 2: Yes. So I was living in Pascagoula, Mississippi. I was stationed in Mississippi at the time. It was 2008 to 2012. I believe it was 2008 when it happened. Pascagoula got destroyed by Katrina. So there's a bunch of vacant lots and everything. One of them was a bank. And the bank was gone, but they had the ATM machine still in the vacant lot at Stacey's gas station. Coming through to get cash for, I think it was for lunch for the station. I pull in, I see two younger males next to the side. Thought it was a little weird that they were paying attention to me and paying attention to people going in and out near there. So I stepped out of the truck and went to the ATM. As soon as I went to the ATM...
[00:18:51] Speaker 1: Let me stop you. Let me stop you. Did you have a gun on you at the time?
[00:18:54] Speaker 2: I did. What kind of gun was it? It was a 1911 U.S. Army service pistol.
[00:19:01] Speaker 1: Did you have a permit or a license to carry?
[00:19:04] Speaker 2: Yes. I had a concealed carry permit and it was a concealed weapon. Okay.
[00:19:08] Speaker 1: All right. So you're at the ATM. What happened?
[00:19:10] Speaker 2: Yep. And as soon as I put my card in, the two males approached on either side. One of them told me to give me his money. All I did was pull up my shirt and showed that I had a weapon. And they turned and jumped the fence. It was gone.
[00:19:27] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:19:27] Speaker 2: I pulled the money out and went to work.
[00:19:29] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:19:30] Speaker 1: Did you call the police or report it?
[00:19:31] Speaker 2: I didn't call the police on that. Okay. Because that was it.
[00:19:34] Speaker 1: All right. What is the second time that you had to use your gun? I say use your gun. That time you didn't really have to use it. Just showed it.
[00:19:42] Speaker 2: No, I just showed it. The second one was in Pasquale as well. It was in 2012, 2011. And I was going into work. We had a high value asset coming in. So I was coming in at 8 o'clock. And the road I was coming in on was destroyed by Katrina. It was real dark. Everything was on the industrial side of town. And I was stopped at a red light. I had the windows down in the truck. And sitting at the red light, listening to the music on the radio, somebody came to the passenger door and popped the lock. And it was opening the door on me.
[00:20:16] Speaker 1: Let me stop you. Popping the lock meaning was the window down?
[00:20:19] Speaker 2: The window was down. He just popped it. It was a GMC. So it was right there. He popped it open. All right. It opened the door and started yelling. I was getting in the truck.
[00:20:28] Speaker 1: You said he started yelling.
[00:20:29] Speaker 2: Yes. I don't know what he was saying, but he was yelling. And so I had the pistol between my, it had a holster between my seats. And I pulled the pistol out and pointed at him and told him to get out of my truck. He got out and ran off. I got to the station and we had three reservists that were actually with the police department there. I told him about it and I believe we had a report made on it.
[00:20:53] Speaker 1: All right, I want to focus your attention back to Satilla Shores. Okay. Was there ever a time that you yourself tried to figure out if any particular person was involved in some of the crime that had been happening over that summer in 2019?
[00:21:19] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay.
[00:21:20] Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about that circumstance?
[00:21:22] Speaker 2: Yeah. So around, I believe it was July, 1st of July, my neighbor at the time, Kim Ballesteros, she had her purse stolen or told us that her purse stolen out of her vehicle. And so we were, neighbors talked about it. Yeah, this is, something else has happened. A few days later, a week or so later, I was coming back from a fishing trip. I have a boat doing charters on the side and I was actually coming back to my house with some clients on Fancy Bluff Creek. Do you have a... I do have a map here. Yes, so... I have this up already.
[00:21:58] Speaker 1: Fancy Bluff Creek.
[00:21:59] Speaker 2: Yep. Under the bridge, the Highway 17 bridge.
[00:22:03] Speaker 1: Yep. We got under there. I'm just going to pull this back too. The state has a similar exhibit that they've used. This being the Google Earth image.
[00:22:14] Speaker 2: Okay. So, yes, I was coming from the north and coming back down towards Fancy Bluff to... You were where? Where your finger is? On the water. On the water. Okay. In my boat, yes. Okay. And got under the bridge and saw a bunch of trash, tarps and there was an old tackle box down there and just a bunch of trash under the bridge. I said, this looks like a homeless camp. And it's very close to the neighborhood. There's a trail that goes to it, actually. Drove on by and started thinking that we just had... The neighbor just had a purse stolen. So, let me check this out. This might be this homeless person or if there is homeless people under there, these might be the ones going into the neighborhood. So, we got home, finished with the client.
[00:23:00] Speaker 1: So, let me stop you there. When you say you got home, we don't see it on this map here. But does this connect coming up around over onto this side?
[00:23:10] Speaker 2: It does. Yes, Fancy Bluff Creek joins Little Satilla, south of the neighborhood.
[00:23:14] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:23:15] Speaker 2: So, you boated around back to your dock? Yes. Okay. Yes.
[00:23:21] Speaker 1: Go ahead.
[00:23:22] Speaker 2: So, I got back, finished with the clients and told my father that, hey, there's a... Looks like there's a homeless camp under the bridge. This purse was just stolen. I want to go see if there's anybody down there. I said, I'll join you. So, we get in my truck. I was, I have carried weapon everywhere. I got a concealed weapon. So, I was on, I'm not sure if my dad was or not. There's a trail. First, we tried on the neighborhood side of the road.
[00:23:54] Speaker 1: All right. So, that being this side over here?
[00:23:55] Speaker 2: It probably, if you look at the...
[00:23:57] Speaker 1: Was there any access point to drive over here?
[00:24:01] Speaker 2: There's a power line that parallels the highway between the neighborhood and the highway. It's an overgrown road or it's an overgrown field.
[00:24:09] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:24:10] Speaker 2: We couldn't get to it from there. There's rocks and stuff is just too bad. So, I drove across Highway 17 onto Fancy Bluff Road.
[00:24:21] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:24:22] Speaker 2: And then there's a little four-wheeler trail.
[00:24:23] Speaker 1: So, Satilla Drive comes across 17.
[00:24:26] Speaker 2: It does.
[00:24:27] Speaker 1: Is that Fancy Bluff up here?
[00:24:28] Speaker 2: I believe it is. Okay. I believe it is. All right. And then there's a wooded lot right directly across and there's a four-wheeler trail that parallels the highway there. Okay.
[00:24:38] Speaker 1: What did you do?
[00:24:39] Speaker 2: So, me and Dad walk down the four-wheeler trail. He's behind me and it goes down, kind of meanders around a couple trees and it gets to the creek, makes a right and it goes under the bridge. So, I turn, go down the bridge. I don't see anybody and then get under the northbound lane and see someone fishing right at the bank. And he had a machete, I guess, a real long knife. It wasn't a fillet knife, it was like a machete right next to him. He doesn't see me. I walk on, get between him and the knife and then... All right. Let me stop you there.
[00:25:15] Speaker 1: As you're doing this, you're going down there with your sidearm. How is it that you feel comfortable going down there to inspect this situation?
[00:25:31] Speaker 2: I didn't see any threat. There was no threat. Yeah, I was... I didn't see... First, I didn't see anybody down there and if I did, then I would talk to him. You know, just talk to him.
[00:25:41] Speaker 1: So, what happened?
[00:25:42] Speaker 2: So, I get to him. I get between him and his knife. Why did you do that? For safety. Okay. For safety. And they talked to him. I said, how are you doing? He's a friendly guy. And I asked him if he's living down the bridge. He told us that he wasn't. He told us that he was living on a road off of Fancy Bluff Road in the neighborhood. I don't remember what the road was. And I told him, I said, straight up, there's a bunch of stuff being stolen in this neighborhood. I'm seeing if there's anything down here. He said, no, I haven't seen anything. Okay. We looked around. I think my dad looked at some of the tarps. He said it wasn't his stuff. I'm certain that he was living under that bridge. We didn't see anything.
[00:26:24] Speaker 1: When you said you didn't see anything, what were you looking for?
[00:26:26] Speaker 2: I was just looking for if there was any purses or if there was any equipment. Anything that obviously wouldn't, you know, if you see boat motors or tackle boxes or, you know, anything, purses. Anything that's just, it would be odd. I mean, I wouldn't pick it up and take it. What we did as soon as we left, my dad called the non-emergency number and informed the police. They were aware, obviously, of what's been going on in the neighborhood and told them, hey, there's a homeless person on this bridge. Check it out for us.
[00:26:57] Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to stop you there. And just to be sure we're on the same page.
[00:27:10] Speaker 6: Hey, this is a president. I'm going to keep that here with the A's office. Is there a police supervisor available I might be able to speak to? Sure, just a moment. And are you talking the dispatch supervisor or police supervisor? Police supervisor, yeah. Anybody on duty will be fine. Okay. I wanted to make them aware. Okay, all right. And what was your name? Greg McMichael. Okay, and a contact number for you? 912-217-1726. They can call me back. Okay, and your address, sir? 230 Cecilia Drive. We've had a lot of break-ins in this area out here, automobile break-ins. And my son and I just discovered a guy. We think he may be living on the Bluff Creek Bridge on 17th.
[00:28:25] Speaker ?: This is the caller?
[00:28:26] Speaker 1: Yes. Okay. Did you discuss this finding of sorts? This person that you thought living on the bridge, did you discuss it with anybody else in the neighborhood? I did. Who did you discuss with, if you can remember?
[00:28:39] Speaker 2: I know Randy Pauler, my direct neighbor. I'm sure I've spoken to Matt Albenzi when he'd stop by, and then there's another guy down the road, an older fella. I cannot remember his name. Okay.
[00:28:54] Speaker 1: All right. Do you know whether or not the subject of someone living under the fancy Bluff Bridge, being a suspect of things happening in the neighborhood, whether that subject came up anymore over the course of the next five or six months?
[00:29:10] Speaker 2: Yeah, there was people, it was always there, you know, it was always in the back of people's mind or something happened that you would hear. You would see it on the Facebook neighborhood page of, you know, the homeless person. There's been a homeless person around. You know, it's, that was, from that moment forward, people knew that there was a homeless person under that bridge.
[00:29:33] Speaker 1: Okay. All right, now I want to ask you about 220 Sotilla Drive.
[00:29:37] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:29:38] Speaker 1: All right. Did, did you ever hear anything about thefts or things being stolen from 220?
[00:29:46] Speaker 2: I did. When did you hear that? The first was from my mother. Okay. And then she heard it from someone or saw it on Facebook and told it to me. And then I started seeing it on the Facebook page.
[00:30:01] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you speak to anybody other than your mother?
[00:30:04] Speaker 2: At first, no.
[00:30:05] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you ever talk to Diego Perez about it?
[00:30:08] Speaker 2: No, not until February 11th. Okay.
[00:30:11] Speaker 1: All right. But in terms of, what was it that you understood was stolen from 220?
[00:30:19] Speaker 2: From my mother. And, you know, I heard that there was equipment stolen off a boat.
[00:30:26] Speaker 1: Located where?
[00:30:27] Speaker 2: In the house, in 220 Sotilla Drive.
[00:30:29] Speaker 1: Okay. Do you know if you ever spoke to Matt Albenzi about it?
[00:30:33] Speaker 2: We've talked about it, but we just talked about it. Like I said, it wasn't, you know, in great detail. You just said, hey, you know, there's been stuff stolen out of that house, out of that boat. I said, yeah, you know.
[00:30:45] Speaker 1: Did you know of the man who lived or who was building 220 Sotilla? I met him once, but I didn't know. Did you know anything about him, about whether he was living on the property or?
[00:30:58] Speaker 2: I knew that he stayed on the property on weekends and stuff like that. When I first met him, he had a camper in the backyard. And from my understanding was he was working on the house himself and he'd spend weekends or sometimes a week there. And he would stay at that house or at that camper. He wasn't staying living in the house that he was building at the time. He was living right behind it or staying right behind it when he was on property.
[00:31:26] Speaker 1: Okay, so just sort of generally speaking, you had learned that boat equipment was stolen and that the owner was living on a camp on the property on weekends.
[00:31:38] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:31:38] Speaker 1: Did you ever investigate anything about 220 Sotilla in 2019? No. Okay. Go in there, search the residence, do any kind of follow-up on stolen goods or anything like that? No. Did you ever speak to Larry English in 2019 about his stolen property? I did not. Okay. Or ask him if you could help him catch whoever had stolen his property? No. Okay. In 2020, were you the victim of crime?
[00:32:21] Speaker 2: I was. All right. When was that? January 1st.
[00:32:24] Speaker 1: Okay. What happened?
[00:32:26] Speaker 2: I had a pistol stolen out of my truck. What kind of gun was it? It was a Smith & Wesson M&P 9C.
[00:32:35] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:32:36] Speaker 2: Smaller. Smaller. All right.
[00:32:39] Speaker 1: And that was when?
[00:32:41] Speaker 2: January 1st, New Year's.
[00:32:42] Speaker 1: Okay. Do you know the circumstances of how it was stolen?
[00:32:49] Speaker 2: Yes. I was. My dad moved the vehicle for me. Or moved the vehicle that morning between 9 and 9 to 11. 9.30 to 11.30. Somewhere around there. He moved it close to the side of the road to the adjacent property right on the road. I came out about 11.45 to go somewhere. Opened the truck. The door was unlocked. I don't know if he left the vehicle unlocked or if I left it unlocked that evening and saw that my holster was sitting in the seat. Went back in and asked my dad if he moved my gun, being that he was in that driver's seat where the holster was. He said he did not. So I looked around the house, made sure that I didn't misplace the pistol for some unknown reason. And came to the conclusion that my pistol was stolen and called and made a report on it.
[00:33:40] Speaker 1: Okay. You said you called. Who'd you call?
[00:33:42] Speaker 2: I called the Glynn County Police Department, non-emergency. Okay. It may have been emergency. I called the police department.
[00:33:48] Speaker 1: I'm going to play State's Exhibit 161.
[00:33:56] Speaker 6: Klan Brooks Communications, operating 9-15. Hey, yes, I need a police officer. I got a report of a stolen pistol. You what, Sean? I need a police officer. I need to report a stolen pistol. Okay, and what's the address that was stolen from? 230 Sotila Drive. That's 230 Sotila Drive, sir? Yep, ma'am.
[00:34:28] Speaker ?: That's called?
[00:34:29] Speaker 1: Yes. Okay, no other pistol stolen from you? That's the only one? That's the only one. Okay. Were you concerned at all about the theft of your gun?
[00:34:37] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:34:38] Speaker 1: Okay, why?
[00:34:39] Speaker 2: Well, one, I don't know who has the weapon. They haven't been stolen out of my truck. I don't know who's got it. I don't know if they know anything, what they're doing with a gun. They might harm themselves or use it to harm someone else or use it for a crime or who knows.
[00:34:58] Speaker 1: Did you hear of other reports of guns being stolen in the neighborhood?
[00:35:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:35:03] Speaker 1: Do you know essentially what it was that you were hearing?
[00:35:07] Speaker 2: I've heard of several vehicles being broken into and guns stolen out of those vehicles. I don't know the addresses, but it was common talk around the neighborhood.
[00:35:21] Speaker 1: At this time, we're moving into January of 2020. Now, no longer the fall of 2019. We haven't really discussed whether or not the crime in the neighborhood was continuing on the rise. Can you give us a little bit of your understanding of what the level of crime was around this time and across October, November, December?
[00:35:46] Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was steady, I guess would be the best way to do this one. It was steady. The house on 220 around October was when it was apparent when you were hearing that Mr. English had stuff stolen out of his boat out of there, expensive stuff. And he put a surveillance system up and they were catching people going into the house.
[00:36:15] Speaker 1: How did you learn about the surveillance system?
[00:36:18] Speaker 2: Once again, for my parents and you were on Facebook.
[00:36:23] Speaker 1: Okay, parents and Facebook.
[00:36:24] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:36:25] Speaker 1: All right.
[00:36:27] Speaker 2: And neighbors. Mr. Albenzi told me, you know, he said that they had somebody in there. You saw them on the camera, but as far as I'm aware.
[00:36:36] Speaker 1: At this point, at this point, in January of 2020, we've got crime in the neighborhood, okay? We've got suspicion in the neighborhood. At this point, had that at all begun to narrow into a particular person?
[00:36:53] Speaker 2: It was starting to, yes. Having the point that 220 is constantly being broken into, and then they have videos of people, now starting to think, all right, there may be someone that, maybe some body or a pair of people that are constantly, that is the one that's continuing to come into this neighborhood. All right. Instead of random acts of burglary.
[00:37:19] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you have any experience yourself with 220 Sotila?
[00:37:27] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:37:27] Speaker 1: Okay. Can you tell us when that was?
[00:37:29] Speaker 2: It was on February 11th. Okay. Around 730 in the evening.
[00:37:42] Speaker 1: All right. Tell us what you were doing on February 11th, around 730 in the evening. All right.
[00:37:48] Speaker 2: Just got, just finished eating dinner. I decided to go fill up my work car. Which is? That was a little Volkswagen Jetta. 4, 05, sorry, around there. Instead of having to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning to fill it up, I just fill it up in the evening, come back and be done with it. Left the house. Turned on Sotila Drive and started heading out of the neighborhood.
[00:38:10] Speaker 1: All right. Stop there. Do you see where your house is approximately on this map? Is this in y'all's way? It's not. It might be for one of you. Let me move this forward. Just attach. Can you lean forward and see it? Yeah. Your house is one of these?
[00:38:32] Speaker 2: That's it.
[00:38:32] Speaker 1: Here. Yeah. Okay.
[00:38:34] Speaker 2: All right. You were here. Yep. Where did you go? I came out, turned on Sotila, take a left. Okay. Yep. And then made it to about where the S is on Sotila Drive.
[00:38:46] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. What did, you said you made it to about there and then what? So, as I'm going, as I'm driving down the neighborhood, I see someone run across the street. All right. From what side to what side? Okay, from the, here you are, down here. You're saying you're coming up Sotila. You're going to make it to about the S. And what do you see?
[00:39:12] Speaker 2: I see someone run from the right side to the left side. This side?
[00:39:17] Speaker 1: Yep. Okay.
[00:39:19] Speaker 2: Actually, I'll tell you where. Yep. Go ahead. Go up to the next house. Between those two houses right there. Right here. Yep. And ran across, directly across the street. Okay. And then into the yard that was there. How far back into the yard? I didn't see them until I went further up, so they went out of sight. Okay. Once I'm further up. Once I got to Jones, the house. Yes, Senator Jones. Okay. The house went up from 220. Okay. Here? Yes. This house here? This is, is this 220 here? I believe so. Yes. Okay. All right. Go ahead. So that house there, if you put the X on. Yes. At the furthest corner away, which was where the driveway was, I saw that individual that ran across the road was at the, was right there at their bushes running across their driveway. When you say bushes, do you mean bushes down here by the road? No, no, no. Close to the house. Okay. Bushes close to the house. It's a Spanish style house. So they have like a terrace or a open veranda in the front, in the front.
[00:40:20] Speaker 1: A courtyard?
[00:40:21] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. A courtyard. So. And where did you see this person go when they crossed the street? I lost sight of them until I saw him right at the driveway of that house. Okay. So yeah, that was, obviously that was the path that he'd take.
[00:40:38] Speaker 1: And how far back off the road was this person, would you estimate? He was close to the house, probably 20, 20, 30 feet. All right. So this distance being 20 to 30 feet off the road. Yes. Okay. All right. Did you see anything else? Yeah, so I don't have my lights on him.
[00:41:00] Speaker 2: I don't have my lights on him at the time. Yep. But as I'm coming out, I've come to a stop at this point. And he is staying in the shadows, obviously trying to avoid being detected. Okay. Detected. He's, for lack of better terms, lurking. He's creeping. Wasn't in a run. And it was just creeping through the shadows. You know, if there's a shadow running through here, he'd run with it and then go to it. And he was staying close to the house.
[00:41:31] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:41:32] Speaker 2: I said, what's going on here? So I stopped. I was right at Jones still. And I backed my vehicle up to him, turning on to that house. You said you backed your vehicle up to him. What do you mean? I'm sorry. I was back. I was putting the backside of my vehicle up Jones. And as I was doing, I was swinging my lights on him when he was in front of that house at that time.
[00:41:56] Speaker 1: Is this kind of accurately depicting what we're talking about? Yes. This being your car? That's correct.
[00:42:01] Speaker 2: Okay. And then I'm swinging it as he's coming to 220. He's moving this way? Yep. Okay. So there was a tree between 220 and that house. And it was real close to the corner of that house. He went between that, seeing the shadows there. And then I stopped. And it was obvious that he was aware that I've caught him. I've put the lights on him. Okay. So he comes out of the shadows, gets into a wall, just kind of stands up and then run like a jog almost into the shadow that the portal it was making. Where is the port-a-potty? The portal it was on the corner of 220. Okay.
[00:42:41] Speaker 1: Between, or at that corner of that house. We've seen some pictures of it in evidence. Is that the same portal it? The same portal.
[00:42:47] Speaker 2: Or same spot. All right.
[00:42:49] Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead.
[00:42:50] Speaker 2: So what happens when he goes towards the portal? So he's 20 or 30 feet behind the portal it, coming from that house. This is, again, obviously he's aware that I am aware that he's there, had lights on him. I get out of the vehicle, put it as a standard car. So I put the parking brake on, step out of the vehicle, and I'm going to ask him what he's doing.
[00:43:12] Speaker 1: What do you mean by standard car?
[00:43:13] Speaker 2: It's a stick shift. Okay, go ahead. I get out of the vehicle. He's trotting to me.
[00:43:20] Speaker 1: All right, stop. Why are you getting out of the vehicle?
[00:43:22] Speaker 2: To see what he's doing, to ask him what he's doing, maybe run him off.
[00:43:25] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:43:26] Speaker 2: I've never, I haven't seen him before.
[00:43:29] Speaker 1: Okay, did he wave at you?
[00:43:31] Speaker 2: No, he didn't. Did he try to talk to you? No, he didn't.
[00:43:35] Speaker 1: Like, I lost my dog or anything like that? Okay, so what happened? Did you step out?
[00:43:39] Speaker 2: I step out to ask him, you know, to see what's going on, to get an idea of what's happening. As he comes out of the shadows from behind that portalet, he comes directly to me, I'm out of the door, and he comes out and he pulls up his shirt and goes to reach in his pocket or waistband area, going for his pocket. I thought it was pocket at first, but later on it didn't make sense, because if you're going to reach for your pocket, you would go for the pocket that's on whichever side you're on. Okay. He reaches like this.
[00:44:08] Speaker 1: So what happened at that moment?
[00:44:10] Speaker 2: It freaked me out. So once I realized what's going on, that he is doing this, and I'm under assumption that he's armed, I jump back in the vehicle, and he turns around and runs into the house.
[00:44:24] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:44:26] Speaker 2: Into the vacant, into the 220, the house at 220.
[00:44:30] Speaker 1: All right. So from the porta potty coming forward, then he goes into the house?
[00:44:36] Speaker 2: Yeah, he stopped, and once I jump back into my vehicle, he just turns and goes into the house. All right. It's not a, it wasn't like a full sprint. It was, he's gone, let me continue what I'm doing.
[00:44:48] Speaker 1: Okay. What did you do at that moment?
[00:44:51] Speaker 2: Well, it startled me. It freaked me out. So I don't know if I had my phone in the vehicle or not. It wasn't there. I didn't have a gun on me. He's gone. I was getting the hell out of there. I just wanted to leave, make sure, because I don't know where he's at at this point. I go and jump in the car and take off to the house. I forget the parking brake's on. I stall the vehicle out, crank the car back up, and get to turn and go back to my home.
[00:45:18] Speaker 1: Okay. What did you do once you got to your home?
[00:45:20] Speaker 2: Once I got home, I believe my dad was in the garage. The garage door was open. Okay. Or may have been in the kitchen. I told him what just happened. And I had two phones. I had my regular phone and my work phone. And best I can remember what I was doing was going to grab a phone. Well, I told dad. I said, hey, there's somebody. I just caught somebody lurking at a neighbor house and just went into 220. So he comes out, and I'm assuming his arm, and goes down the road.
[00:45:56] Speaker 1: Okay. Hold on. Let me stop you there. Did you call the police?
[00:45:59] Speaker 2: I did.
[00:46:00] Speaker 1: All right.
[00:46:00] Speaker 2: Yeah.
[00:46:02] Speaker 1: Where are you when your dad starts to walk down the street?
[00:46:06] Speaker 2: I was at my vehicle. I was at the driveway.
[00:46:08] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you say anything to your dad?
[00:46:11] Speaker 2: Yeah. I told him to wait. I said, hold on a second. Hold on a second. I don't know what's happening. I'm assuming this guy's armed. And dad, he just had a stroke a couple months earlier, two, three months earlier. And everything's fine, but you're concerned about him. If somebody... Does he have any other health issues? Yeah. He's got a busted hip. He's actually had a total hip replacement, and he's had a couple heart attacks.
[00:46:37] Speaker 1: Okay. So you say, Dad, wait.
[00:46:40] Speaker 2: Yeah, wait. And he's walking on down the road. He's going on down the road. All right.
[00:46:45] Speaker 1: What do you do?
[00:46:45] Speaker 2: So I go in, grab the keys to my truck, and grab one of my guns, which was at the safe, which was in the garage right there. Get out. Get down to the road where Dad is. I'm calling 911 at a time. By the time the operator picks up, I pull up to 220, and at that time, my father and I wasn't aware who it was at the time, a neighbor, another neighbor Dad was interacting with. I didn't know who it was. It ended up being Diego Perez.
[00:47:14] Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm going to pause you there.
[00:47:15] Speaker 2: Okay.
[00:47:16] Speaker 1: And when you pull up. Exhibit 163.
[00:47:36] Speaker 6: 911, what's the address of your emergency? It's Satilla Drive, 230 Satilla Drive. What's going on? We've had a string of burglaries. I was living in the neighborhood, and I just caught a guy running into a house being built two houses down from me.
[00:47:59] Speaker 1: Travis, do you hear the way you sound?
[00:48:02] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:48:03] Speaker 1: What are we hearing?
[00:48:04] Speaker 2: I was still scared. I was breathing heavy. I was still alarmed, I guess.
[00:48:15] Speaker 6: When I turned around, he took off running into the house. Okay. What did he look like? It's a black male, red shirt, white shorts. And you said the house is being built? It's being built, yes, ma'am. It's vacant right now. He is in the house.
[00:48:44] Speaker 1: Why did you tell the 911 operator that you had a string of burglaries happening in the neighborhood?
[00:48:51] Speaker 2: Well, that was apparent. And then, I guess, going into it that him going into that house, then knowing that that house has been the one that's been breaking in and everything's been stolen, or the stuff's been stolen in there, that there's a connection to this. And I think that's why. What did you think he might be doing in the house that night? I think he was going back and stealing, breaking in, burglar up.
[00:49:24] Speaker 6: What's your name and phone number, sir? Travis McMichael. 912-423-1374. All right. Where are you at now?
[00:49:49] Speaker 2: Is that you breathing? That was me breathing, yes.
[00:49:52] Speaker 6: Run across the street in my truck, watching the house. Watching the house with it right now. Right here at the 21st century.
[00:50:02] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:50:02] Speaker 1: So, you say you're sitting in your truck and you're watching the house. What does that mean?
[00:50:06] Speaker 2: So, like I said, my dad was on down there by the time I got my phone and called 911. It was just a second to get there. They heard me whistle right there. I saw the police coming, and I was trying to get attention to my father. It turned out to be Diego that would say, hey, the police are right here. You know, I don't want anything to happen. They didn't think that they were the ones breaking in. All right. Stop. Did you go in the house? I did not.
[00:50:31] Speaker 1: Why not?
[00:50:32] Speaker 2: Because I didn't know. I lost sight of the individual that just went in there, and he acted like he may have been armed. I'm not going to follow him in there. I'm not going to chase or investigate somebody that may be armed, and I don't have any reason to go into that house.
[00:50:54] Speaker 1: Well, what about your dad and this other fellow that's out there?
[00:50:58] Speaker 2: I don't know why they were armed, but I don't know why that they decided to do that.
[00:51:04] Speaker 1: Were you concerned?
[00:51:05] Speaker 2: I was.
[00:51:06] Speaker 1: About what?
[00:51:07] Speaker 2: About them going in there and running across someone that intends to do harm or would try to harm them.
[00:51:15] Speaker 1: All right. So you're outside the house, sitting there on the phone, lights on the house? Yes. Okay.
[00:51:22] Speaker 6: What kind of truck are you in? Red Ford N-150. Okay. Are you okay? Yeah. Yeah. It just startled me. When I turned around and saw him and backed up, he reached into his pocket and ran into the house. So I don't know if he's armed or not, but he looked like he was acting like he was. So, you know, be mindful of that. Okay. Which pocket did he reach into? Left, I believe.
[00:51:56] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:51:56] Speaker 1: So be mindful of that. Again, it may be obvious, but what is it that you're trying to communicate?
[00:52:01] Speaker 2: That the person that I just had this interaction with, the possibility, is armed and is obviously willing to use it if that was the case.
[00:52:10] Speaker 1: Well, why are you telling the 911 call center operator to be mindful of that?
[00:52:14] Speaker 2: So the police that show up on scene would come in knowing what they're, that they're possibly walking into.
[00:52:22] Speaker 5: Okay.
[00:52:35] Speaker 6: And now, so 230 is the vacant lot address? No, it's my address. It's your address? Okay. It's probably 28 or 226. It might be 226? Possibly. How many houses down is it from yours? It's two towards the highway. He's got, I guess he doesn't realize we're here. He's got the day of lights on right now. He's got a flashlight going through the house. Does he? Okay.
[00:53:38] Speaker 1: So you're now surmising that the person that you saw going through the house has a flashlight now. Yes. All right. Did you come to understand that that was not what you thought?
[00:53:50] Speaker 2: It wasn't. No. It was our neighbor, Diego, who was.
[00:53:55] Speaker 1: All right. Did they ever see or talk to or catch the person that had entered the house that night?
[00:54:03] Speaker 2: No, they did not. Excuse me.
[00:54:19] Speaker 1: All right. On that night, did you meet with the police ultimately?
[00:54:24] Speaker 2: Yes. I was, I stayed where we were and then when they arrived on scene, I stayed with. All right.
[00:54:30] Speaker 1: Do you remember the name of the officer you met with?
[00:54:32] Speaker 2: One was Officer Rash.
[00:54:34] Speaker 1: Okay. And who else was out there? I think you said your dad.
[00:54:38] Speaker 2: Yes. My dad was out there. You said Diego was out there. Diego.
[00:54:44] Speaker 1: All right. Did anybody else show up that night?
[00:54:47] Speaker 2: That I spoke to, just seeing the video, obviously, Ronnie Olson came out there. I think I spoke to him, but then I spoke to Matt Albenzi.
[00:54:55] Speaker 1: All right. But were you aware that Ronnie was there? Yes. Okay. And you said Matt Albenzi. Anybody else that you were aware was there? And I mean that night, not after watching the video, the body cam video.
[00:55:17] Speaker 2: I spoke to another neighbor, Brandon Gregory, right after it happened when I was leaving.
[00:55:22] Speaker 1: All right. And who is Brandon Gregory?
[00:55:25] Speaker 2: He's a neighbor, I think he lives on Zellwood. He's also, at the time, I'm not sure if he is or not anymore, but a police officer. Works with the only guy in the police officer.
[00:55:34] Speaker 1: With what?
[00:55:35] Speaker 2: Blaine County Police Department.
[00:55:36] Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
[00:55:40] Speaker 2: And he just was coming home. He wasn't involved with it.
[00:55:43] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. You said that you talked to Officer Rash? Yes. All right. Did Officer Rash show you anything?
[00:55:54] Speaker 2: Yes. After everything was done, he showed me the video of what occurred, just what I witnessed and called 911 on.
[00:56:06] Speaker 1: The video of what?
[00:56:08] Speaker 2: Of the individual going into the house.
[00:56:13] Speaker 1: So, from running from the portalet into the house. Yes. He's now showing you the video of this person inside the house.
[00:56:20] Speaker 2: Inside the house. Yeah. Okay.
[00:56:22] Speaker 1: And did you watch the video?
[00:56:24] Speaker 2: I did.
[00:56:24] Speaker 1: Was there anything about the video that made you feel anything whatsoever? Yeah.
[00:56:30] Speaker 2: So, having that experience where I just said that, you know, with him drawing or acting like he was drawing the weapon and then running into the house. And then seeing the video that he's walking around, so nonchalant in that house, kind of, it starved me a little bit that having that just happen, just catching him creeping through that front yard and obviously trying to avoid detection and then doing what he did there and then going into that house. And then walking around in there like it's no big deal was alarming.
[00:57:06] Speaker 1: Alarming what?
[00:57:07] Speaker 2: Because I wouldn't think anyone acting normal would do that and somebody that's willing to act like they have a gun or act like they will harm you to prevent you from asking them or doing anything there and then go in and just act all normal and nonchalant and never catching the guy, knowing what he's doing, it just sets off the alarms for him.
[00:57:33] Speaker 5: Okay.
[00:57:37] Speaker 2: It's just bold, it's just bold, it's just very, you said bold. Yeah, it's just the way that he's acting is just very, it's a bold move.
[00:57:48] Speaker 1: Did you learn about, you had mentioned already that you were aware of some boat equipment being stolen back in October or from the house, did you learn or did you see any of the other videos of 220 that night?
[00:58:03] Speaker 2: I think I saw some stills, I believe. Some stills of what? It was the first time I saw it. It was one of, I believe it was Mr. Aubrey on the dock.
[00:58:13] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:58:15] Speaker 2: All right. All right. Any other ones? I can't recall which ones were others. I think they did show another one of him walking around in the evening time.
[00:58:27] Speaker 1: Okay.
[00:58:29] Speaker 2: But I was told for the first time that that, that it was the same guy that has been in that house several times.
[00:58:37] Speaker 1: Again, the question I asked you about January 1st, now moving to February 11th. In your mind, the idea of crime happening in the neighborhood, things being stolen, had you at all funneled that even further into trying to determine who may be responsible for some of the crime in the neighborhood?
[00:59:16] Speaker 2: At that point, yes, it did.
[00:59:18] Speaker 1: Or who was responsible for stealing the boat equipment from 220?
[00:59:21] Speaker 2: Yes.
[00:59:22] Speaker 1: All right. Did you draw any conclusions about who that might be?
[00:59:25] Speaker 2: I did.
[00:59:26] Speaker 1: All right. Who did you think it was?
[00:59:27] Speaker 2: I was thinking it was the person I just had an encounter with that evening on February 11th.
[00:59:32] Speaker 1: Okay. And what is it that you think he was doing in 220?
[00:59:36] Speaker 2: I thought that he was breaking back in and was going to steal some more stuff.
[00:59:44] Speaker 1: After that night, did you talk with anybody else in the neighborhood just about the crime?
[00:59:49] Speaker 2: A couple days later, I'm sure that I know that me and Matt Albenzi talked about that evening, if you heard anything, anything like that. And I spoke to Diego Perez also. Same kind of conversation. Just if he heard any more about it, anything like that. Okay. Okay. Okay.
[01:00:19] Speaker 1: I want to move into February 23rd.
[01:00:27] Speaker 4: Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to go ahead and take a 15-minute recess, and we'll bring you back for a continuation of the evidence.
[01:00:34] Speaker 5: So I'll rise for a jury, please.
[01:00:41] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay.
[01:01:11] Speaker 4: All right. Let's take 15 minutes. Can you go ahead and step down? Yes, sir. Okay.
[01:01:19] Speaker ?: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[01:17:23] Speaker 4: Yeah. All right. We've got the defendants present represented by counsel. Kept an eye on juror number 12 during the examination. I'm going to move her closer to the bailiff so that she is struggling at all. She can stand up and do whatever she needs to do to ensure that she is not struggling. I made eye contact with her a number of times and did note that she was struggling. I will note that she didn't fall asleep. That was not the issue. But it did look like she was having problems. And hopefully by moving her this afternoon we'll remedy that and it will not be an issue for the parties or for the court. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:07] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:23] Speaker 4: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:28] Speaker 5: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:33] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:38] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:40] Speaker 4: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:43] Speaker 5: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:18:58] Speaker 4: Apparently somebody is earning royalties.
[01:19:05] Speaker 6: I wish it was us. Not sponsored.
[01:19:28] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:19:31] Speaker 6: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:19:33] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:20:13] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:20:15] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:20:16] Speaker 4: All right. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We are ready to proceed, I believe, once we have a little meeting over here.
[01:20:26] Speaker ?: We are ready to go. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. It was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. She was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:20:58] Speaker 4: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:07] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:08] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:15] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:24] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:34] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:38] Speaker ?: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:38] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:39] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:40] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:46] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:47] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:48] Speaker 1: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling.
[01:21:51] Speaker 2: I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. I will note that she was struggling. The guy that has been breaking in down the road. Just ran by the house. Something has happened.
[01:22:25] Speaker 1: The guy? The guy. Did you know who he meant by the guy?
[01:22:28] Speaker 2: I was under assumption that it was the same individual that I saw on the 11th.
[01:22:34] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:22:35] Speaker 2: Because he was down there as well. I saw the same video.
[01:22:40] Speaker 1: Because who was down there as well?
[01:22:42] Speaker 2: My father was down there as well on the 11th. And saw the same video and talked to Officer Rash with me as well. So I was under assumption that it was the same guy from the 11th as who he is speaking of that just ran by. All right.
[01:22:55] Speaker 1: So he comes in. The guy who has been breaking in down the street is back?
[01:22:59] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. Then what? Yes. So he ran off. I think he told me to grab my gun. Okay. He said something is happening. Grab your gun. So I went to my room, which is the door is to the living room that I was in. And the first firearm that I had that was easily accessible because I had my son that week. My pistols were in the safe and everything was my shotgun. I just cleaned it or I had it out for something. So I grabbed the shotgun. Okay. And walked out, went out through the kitchen door to the, to the driveway where my truck
[01:23:37] Speaker 1: was. So you come out of your house. You can come from it. You come out of your house and you come out where?
[01:23:52] Speaker 2: I came out and went to the driveway, to the end of the driveway because my truck was, was at the, at the very end. Okay. All right. So you come out. Yep. What, what, what do you do first? Uh, so I went to the driver's side or when I came out, I, dad went into his, into his, uh, bedroom. So I was by myself when I came out, I came out to see what was going on. Um, I looked obviously out of the driveway or out of the, um, garage, didn't see anything. I went to the end of the road to where my truck was. Okay. What'd you do? I looked down to the right.
[01:24:32] Speaker 1: Down back in which direction?
[01:24:35] Speaker 2: Into the neighborhood towards Burford and Holmes.
[01:24:38] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:24:39] Speaker 2: So you first this way? Yes. All right. And then I look back down to Tilla where 220, where the house that has been, uh, having stuff stolen. All right. I looked down there and I saw my neighbor, Matt Albenzi in the road.
[01:24:56] Speaker 1: All right. Where was Matt?
[01:24:58] Speaker 2: Matt was almost until the drive. Um, I thought he was at right adjacent to the property there. What property? To the 220.
[01:25:08] Speaker 1: Okay. So Matt Albenzi was up this way.
[01:25:12] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:25:13] Speaker 1: And what did you see or say or do?
[01:25:16] Speaker 2: So I came out when I saw Matt, I was right at the truck. So when I saw Matt down the road, he saw me and he pointed down the road. Pointed down towards Burford and Tilla and Holmes towards me.
[01:25:30] Speaker 1: Did you see him point? I did. Where were you standing when you saw him?
[01:25:34] Speaker 2: I was right at my, at the corner of the driveway and Tilla Drive. Uh, we have, uh, we have a group of mailboxes right there. And I was just on the inside of those mailboxes.
[01:25:45] Speaker 1: Okay. And he pointed in what direction?
[01:25:47] Speaker 2: Towards me down Tilla Drive.
[01:25:49] Speaker 1: Okay. Pointing this way towards Burford? Yes, sir. Okay.
[01:25:54] Speaker 2: What did you think when you saw that? At that moment, I have a dad saying, the guy that just ran by the house. The guy that you, that been breaking into, into the house down the road, just ran by the house. I came out, didn't see him and then saw Matt Albenzi, who was on scene on February 11th, who also saw the video and has been seen, you know, seen videos that we've talked about. Sure. Pointing down the road. I thought it was reasonable that, okay, there's something to this. This guy may have just ran by. Matt may have just seen him, either caught him breaking in, stealing something. Or, uh, the guy that owns the property that stays in the, in the camper might be on property and just startled him. Or God forbid, maybe there may have been an altercation or something happened. Okay.
[01:26:45] Speaker 1: May have seen, may have broken in.
[01:26:48] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:26:49] Speaker 1: So what did you do?
[01:26:53] Speaker 2: So at that time, my dad came out, came out of the house through the garage as well. And, uh, he told me he ran down the road. He pointed towards Burford. He told you who ran down the road? My father told me the guy from, from, uh, the other night, which turned out to be Mr. Arbery. But he said the guy. He just ran down, um, Satilla. Go ahead. So we wanted to get in the truck. Let's go down there. Okay.
[01:27:23] Speaker 1: So, okay. Your dad is communicating to you. He says, get in the truck. Yes. Okay. You said you had a shotgun. I did. Where did you put your shotgun?
[01:27:36] Speaker 2: Um, I put it right between, there's a brand new truck. So, uh, it had vinyl seats. It's a 40, 60, it's a bench, bench seat. It's a work truck. And what I would usually do if I'm out in the woods or if I have a long gun with me, is I put it between the seats. It's, there's a crease between the two seats.
[01:27:58] Speaker 1: Okay. It's the bench seat.
[01:28:00] Speaker 2: It is. But there's a crease. Yeah. So there's three different seats, but they're all across. And I just put my, my shotgun or a rifle or whatever. Okay. Right there. The muzzle. The muzzle is down to the floorboard, touching the floorboard by the gas pedal.
[01:28:14] Speaker 1: All right. And where's the butt of the gun?
[01:28:16] Speaker 2: The butt of the gun, being that was a short shot, a shorter shotgun. If y'all can see where I'm in here, if I'm sitting in the seat, the butt would be about right here.
[01:28:29] Speaker 1: Where did your dad get in the car?
[01:28:31] Speaker 2: So dad, I had a car seat in the truck at the time. It was a regular cab pickup and. All right. Stop there.
[01:28:38] Speaker 1: I've shown the statement I marked as Travis McMichael Exhibit 14 for identification. Emperor? Yes. I'm going to show you. Travis McMichael 14 for identification. Do you recognize it?
[01:28:58] Speaker 2: Yes. What is it? That is looking in the interior of my, of my truck at the time with my son's car seat in the passenger seat.
[01:29:07] Speaker 1: Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the car seat in your truck? Very, very much so. Yes. Move to admit defense exhibit 14. No objection. Now publish?
[01:29:15] Speaker 4: Go ahead.
[01:29:24] Speaker 1: All right.
[01:29:25] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:29:25] Speaker 1: So I'm showing you defensive 14. We're taking a look here. Obviously this is the car seat we're talking about?
[01:29:31] Speaker 2: Yes.
[01:29:32] Speaker 1: Same car seat. Okay. All right.
[01:29:35] Speaker 2: So where is your dad sitting? He is stuffed in the car seat? He is stuffed in the car seat. He's kind of, he's kind of got half of him in the car seat and this is the car seat. He's kind of angled in it like this. He's stuffed, the best term to say stuffed in that car seat.
[01:29:54] Speaker 1: And what is he saying to you if anything?
[01:29:57] Speaker 2: Um, I think he's cussing about the car seat, you know, trying to get in the car seat. And I just started driving at that point. Which way are you driving? I turn out and head towards Burford.
[01:30:09] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:30:10] Speaker 2: And what are you doing driving in that direction? Uh, I'm trying to find out what's going on. I'm trying to analyze the whole situation, but looking for whoever it was that ran by. I haven't made any eye contact at the time. But, uh.
[01:30:24] Speaker 1: Have you personally determined who it was that ran by? No, I did not. Have you accepted what your dad has said that this is in fact the guy?
[01:30:31] Speaker 2: Um, I assumed that he was correct, but I wanted to verify.
[01:30:35] Speaker 1: Okay. So you said you started heading towards Burford. Yes. All right. Now we're towards Burford.
[01:30:41] Speaker 2: What do you do or what do you see? Sometime between before Burford or as we're going, I asked my father, I said, uh, have you, did you call the cops or the cops on the way? I'm not sure exactly what I said. I think I said, did you call the cops?
[01:30:53] Speaker 1: Okay. Um. And so at this moment, you're asking him if he called the police? Yes.
[01:30:59] Speaker 2: All right. And? He said, uh, I know that he didn't, he didn't catch what I was saying. I don't think he was paying attention completely. He said, yes, yes. I assume that he has called the police. Okay.
[01:31:13] Speaker 1: You're saying I know that he didn't. You mean as you sit here today, you know he didn't? As minutes later, I realized that he didn't. Okay. At this moment, what was your impression at this moment? That the police haven't been called. Okay. Where do you go now?
[01:31:29] Speaker 2: I continue, uh, about that time, right around there. We were at the corner of Satilla, Holmes, and then Burford's a couple yards past that. We were about right there. There is a group of bushes and kind of a jog onto Burford. Okay. So you can't see, you can see straight down the road, but where we were at, you can't really, you know, you can miss something. All right. So there's bushes here at the corner of Burford? Yes. Okay. Yes. So it's hard to see. All right. What do you do? Continue on Burford. I'll look down Satilla. I'll look down Holmes. There's nobody. All right. On the other side. You're looking. Okay. Then you go this way. Now what? As soon as we get on Burford, I see, turn up, be Mr. Arbery running down the road. Okay. So what are you doing when you first see him? When I first see him, I'm trying to see if I recognize him. Okay. And he's running. He's got long strides. He's athletic. You know, he's athletic. He was in great shape. He was in long strides. I've recognized that run, but, you know, I mean. Okay. So what did you do next? So I continued to drive up to him. As I'm getting closer, I recognized his haircut.
[01:32:49] Speaker 1: Where would you say you are on Burford when you get close to him?
[01:32:54] Speaker 2: I was two houses down. Okay. I mean, it was the first 100, 150 feet, I would say. All right.
[01:33:03] Speaker 1: Now, are you, how fast would you say you're going?
[01:33:07] Speaker 2: At that point, I was probably riding the brake. Okay.
[01:33:11] Speaker 1: Are you honking? No.
[01:33:13] Speaker 2: No.
[01:33:14] Speaker 1: Are you hanging out in the window yelling? Nope. All right. Do you eventually pull up next to him? I do. Do you hit him with your truck as you pull up next to him? I do not. Where are you when you pull up next to him?
[01:33:29] Speaker 2: I got closer to him. I was centerline of the road. Okay. And he was two feet off the edge of the road, on the road. But he was two, three feet off from the edge. Okay.
[01:33:42] Speaker 1: As you're approaching him, are you making any observations?
[01:33:45] Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm realizing, at this point I'm realizing this is more likely the same guy that I saw. Okay. But I'm also watching his hands. Why? Watching his emotions. Make sure he's not armed. Okay. I don't know what I'm coming into. And, you know, if it's the same guy for the 11th, then, you know, I have some suspicions that he may be armed and may act on it.
[01:34:08] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:34:09] Speaker 2: Okay. What do you do next? So, I come up to him, walk alongside of him. Okay. At that moment, I recognize it is him. It is the same guy that I saw from the 11th. I asked him, said, "Hey, what are you doing? What's going on?"
[01:34:26] Speaker 1: All right. Stop.
[01:34:28] Speaker 2: Are you still driving when you say this to him? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm coasting. I'm staying with him. I'm staying. He's right there at my door. Okay. Have you angled in front of him to block him? I'm parallel with him. Okay. You say, "Hey, go ahead.
[01:34:41] Speaker 1: What are you doing?"
[01:34:42] Speaker 2: Yeah. What's going on?
[01:34:44] Speaker 1: What are you doing?
[01:34:45] Speaker 2: What's the tone of your voice when you say it? Just like that. Hey, what's going on? I'm trying to stay. I'm trying to, like I said earlier, I'm using leads. I'm trying to deescalate. I know that this can be, you know, this could go any way, but I'm trying to find out what's going on. I'm trying to find out why, why he, why Mr. Albenzi's pointing down the road and he ran down the road and if this is the same guy, then you know, there's, there could be something to this. Let's find out what's happening. Okay. So you talked to him. What do you say? Yeah. So I said, Hey, stop for a minute. Stop. Please stop. Well, he didn't say anything.
[01:35:19] Speaker 1: He's... Stop for a minute. Stop. Please stop. Did you actually use the word please?
[01:35:24] Speaker 2: I'm sure I did. I'm trying to, like I said, I'm trying to keep this as non-volatile as possible. So I'm not screaming at the guy. I mean, I'm just trying to find out what's happening. Yeah. So he pulls up and one thing I do notice when I start talking is his demeanor.
[01:35:44] Speaker 1: What do you mean he pulls up? I'm sorry.
[01:35:46] Speaker 2: When I pull up. When I pull up. Sorry. When I pull up. Go ahead. But when I talk to him, when I first talk to him, he looks over to me, but wasn't yelling at him. I mean, this is the first communication I had to him and I was from four feet, five feet away from, you know, road lane from him. And he looked over at me and he was... Permission to get down your honor?
[01:36:10] Speaker 1: Right here? I'll come up. I'll approach. How far are we? I was... You're in your truck. I'm turning face this way. Yeah.
[01:36:18] Speaker 2: It was about that. No further than where you are. Okay. What are you saying? Hey, what's going on? Hey, stop a minute. Stop a minute. I want to talk to you. What's he doing? I want to talk to you. That's actually what I was saying.
[01:36:29] Speaker 1: Does he stop running at any point?
[01:36:30] Speaker 2: No. At this point, he is still running, but I noticed that he looks very angry. He's...
[01:36:37] Speaker 1: Describe that.
[01:36:38] Speaker 2: What do you mean? Mad. It wasn't what I expected from just coming up and talking to him. It was clenched teeth, closed brow. He was mad, which made me think that something's happened. I don't know why we...
[01:36:57] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:36:58] Speaker 2: It's not what I expected at all. All right.
[01:37:02] Speaker 1: So, it's unexpected. So, now what do you do?
[01:37:06] Speaker 2: So, kind of analyzing this, you know, and I ask him again, or tell him, ask him again, "Hey, will you stop for a second?" He stops, or actually just turns and starts jogging back, in a jog, back, or you know, going back up towards Burford and Satilla.
[01:37:25] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:37:26] Speaker 2: Backward.
[01:37:27] Speaker 1: So, he starts to come back this way. Yes. Does he speak to you? He did not speak to me. Does he say what? What do you want? Yeah, he's never... Or leave me alone, or anything? Nothing. All right. So, he starts to run back this direction. What do you do? I back up.
[01:37:42] Speaker 2: Okay. Put the truck in reverse and match up with him again. All right. As I come up to him, I start to ask him, "Hey, you know, what's going on? What's going on?" He turns and runs.
[01:37:57] Speaker 1: Turns and runs which way?
[01:37:58] Speaker 2: Back to...
[01:38:00] Speaker 1: We're still in Burford. Back to Zillowin. Back down this way. Okay. All right. Now, you're fine. You're fine. When you pull up to him the second time and say, "Hey, what's going on?" What do you mean by that question, what's going on?
[01:38:15] Speaker 2: I wanted to know the main thing. Why is the neighbor pointing down the road from the direction where he's at? I mean, it could be nothing but with Dad saying that the guy that ran by and then coming out, like, what's he talking about? And seeing someone pointing down the road from 220 from where I encountered him a week and a half prior, going into the house that has been burglarized, have had stuff stolen that he's been in several times that... All right. Yeah. We need to figure out what's happening.
[01:38:46] Speaker 1: Okay. Have you now seen the video? You've been sitting here for the whole trial. Have you seen the video from Roddy Bryan's driveway? Yes. Were you aware of Mr. Bryan in that moment? No.
[01:38:59] Speaker 2: No, I didn't. Did you see him on his porch? I didn't. I've never met him before. I didn't.
[01:39:05] Speaker 1: All right. So did you know him before this moment? No. Or did you ever have any kind of Facebook connection with him whatsoever? No. Ever call him on the phone? No. Okay. And at this moment, are you aware that he's on his porch and can see you and Mr. Arbery there together? No.
[01:39:21] Speaker 2: All right.
[01:39:22] Speaker 1: Stupid question time. Did you look at him and go, "Let's go, get in your truck, help us out?" No. Okay. So he starts to run back up the road after the second attempt at a conversation. Before he ran up the road at that second attempt of conversation, did he speak to you and say, "Hey, what? What is it?" No. What do you want? Or any kind of words whatsoever. Not yet.
[01:39:46] Speaker 2: Did he make eye contact with you? Yeah, we made eye contact the first time. Okay. The second time, I'm not sure. I mean, may have, but I was kind of watching his hands, you know. He was more keen to his hands.
[01:39:58] Speaker 1: Okay. This time when you're backing up, did you back up to try to block him? I did not. When he started going forward, did you move in front of him and try to block him?
[01:40:06] Speaker 2: I did not. All right. What did you do next? As he took off running again, I put the truck in drive and stayed with him and kind of analyzing what's going on. Let's explain. Just watching, trying to figure out what's happening. Watching his demeanor or what, you know, if he's, what's happening, you know, what is happening. All right. Did you eventually reach him? Yeah. I decided to come up to him again, to get up next to him again and try one more time and just tell him, "Hey, the police are coming." All right.
[01:40:40] Speaker 1: Freeze. How far away again are you from him when you come up next to him down Burford Road? Once again, I was, I was centerline.
[01:40:48] Speaker 2: My, I was, tires were just on the other side of the centerline. So my body was centerline and he was two, three feet off the road. So for me to you, no further.
[01:40:56] Speaker 1: Two or three feet off the road?
[01:40:58] Speaker 2: No, he was, he was on the road, two to three feet from the edge. Okay. So he was, if this was the edge of the road, he was running down the... And this far away about? No further than that. Four feet? Four feet, something like that. Yeah. Okay. Are you yelling? No, I'm not. I'm not. I'm actually probably softer than I was the first time. All right. Just trying to...
[01:41:22] Speaker 1: You said that you spoke to him now this third time when you get up here further down Burford Road. Does he stop running at any point up here?
[01:41:30] Speaker 2: Yeah. So after I get up to him again, I say, Hey, I just want to talk to you. I want to know what's going on. He finally stops. Okay. Great. I want to talk to you.
[01:41:39] Speaker 1: I want to know what's going on. Okay. Okay. Go ahead.
[01:41:44] Speaker 2: So you finally, we finally stopped. I asked what was going on. He never says anything to me. He's still looking at me, angry, everything. Man, this guy's, yeah, this could be volatile. You know, let's kind of watch him here. I asked him again, Hey, what happened down the road? Why are people pointing down the road? Where are you running from? He didn't say anything. And he's still kind of in the same spot he is. He's not squaring up or anything like that. He's just standing there. And I said, Hey, the police are on the way. As soon as I said, the police, he turned and ran straight back down Burford towards Holmes. Satilla.
[01:42:33] Speaker 1: He turns back and comes back down Burford. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Okay. The police are on the way. And then you say he turns and runs.
[01:42:42] Speaker 2: As soon as I said the police are on the way, he turned and sprinted down Burford.
[01:42:47] Speaker 1: Did that mean anything to you, the way he acted when you said that? It did. Like what?
[01:42:53] Speaker 2: Why would you, if there's, if nothing happened down there, totality of circumstance, if nothing happened down there, if the neighbor wasn't pointing down the road, if I haven't seen him on video and the possibility that he is down there again, all that might be in play. If not, that's fine. If I say the police are on the way and you take off and run, get in the way, then it's all right, there is, he may have been caught in that house again and there, he's up to, up to probably been caught on that, on that property and is trying to evade, trying to avoid from being stopped by the police. Well, obviously, because he's running.
[01:43:34] Speaker 1: Trying to avoid being stopped by police. Did you, at any point in time, when you first approached him and made the first statement to him, hey, stop please, or when you reversed and said, hey, we just want to talk to you, or when you met him up the road for the third time, at any point, did that gun come off the seat, come out the window, was it shown brandished in any way whatsoever?
[01:43:59] Speaker 2: It was not. And matter of fact, as I'm going down, like I said, it's a brand new truck. I just bought this truck, this vinyl seat, and I've never, the seats weren't used to having stuff wedged between it, the shotgun slid out from my seat and ended up in the floorboard. I couldn't grab it if I wanted to.
[01:44:17] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you tell him you were going to shoot him?
[01:44:20] Speaker 2: No.
[01:44:21] Speaker 1: Okay. When he ran back, what did you do at that moment, after he ran back down the road?
[01:44:31] Speaker 2: At that moment when I told him the police were on the way, during that time, like I said, this time he stopped. I thought we were about to have a, you know, about to communicate and see what's going on. About this time, my dad was getting out of the vehicle. I wasn't speaking to dad. He was probably talking to me. I wasn't paying attention to him. Okay. So, when Mr. Arbery turned and started running down the road, about that time dad was getting out of the vehicle, obviously to get out of the car seat, and started clambering into, climbing into the back of the pickup truck. Okay. What did you do? Watching dad. And then I realized- Who are you watching dad? Watching him try to get in the back of the truck. Okay. And then I realized that my shotgun was down on the floorboard. Mr. Arbery is running away. I take the gun out and put it back into my, into my seat, put it back on the seat. Okay. On time of contact. Grab the firearm at that moment. All right. That was just to put it back in the seat there. Then what happened? Dad's climbing the truck. I look down from all that, look up, and then there is a black Chevy pickup, or black pickup at the time I thought. And it was on the left side of Satilla. If I'm looking down, I'm sorry, the left side of Burford. If I'm looking down Burford towards Satilla and-
[01:45:51] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:45:52] Speaker 2: So this is the road.
[01:45:53] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. You're looking down the road. That's correct. Not accurate distance here, but there's a Chevy truck.
[01:45:58] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
[01:45:59] Speaker 1: All right. The driveway is like this. Where is the Chevy truck? The road is like this.
[01:46:04] Speaker 2: In the truck. Where's your truck? The truck was like that. Okay. On the left side. The way I'm looking at it, on the left side of the road. Okay. So, like you were. All right.
[01:46:17] Speaker 1: And what are you watching happen?
[01:46:19] Speaker 2: So, I didn't know where the truck came from. I didn't know that it was, if it came, I was assuming that it came from the front of the neighborhood. Because I didn't see the vehicle come out anywhere. Okay. Okay. It was just, it was up here. It was just there. When I got done watching Dad and getting that gun secured and look up, that truck was there. And Mr. Arbery was at the truck and he ran, he was at the left side of the truck. And we're, I'm a couple hundred feet away from this. So, I knew that he was on the truck. He was at the vehicle. I couldn't see what he was doing. But he went to the other side of the vehicle and then turned and then continued again.
[01:47:04] Speaker 1: Okay. Is there anything about his movement with the vehicle that was of interest to you?
[01:47:12] Speaker 2: Yeah. So, I didn't know if, maybe if this guy was picking Mr. Arbery up or if he was involved with what happened, whatever happened down there and he was trying to stop him or I was scared that I thought I said, Mr. Arbery, you know, one of my thoughts was, I might hear a gunshot here. You know, what's happening? I was kind of just watching, you know, just like what's happening on, on alert. Okay. And I watched that happen. And then from where I was, what it looked like is Arbery got in front of the vehicle and continued down the road. Down towards? Sotilla. Sotilla and Holmes. Yeah.
[01:47:52] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:47:53] Speaker 2: All right. What did you do? Got back in my truck. At that time, my dad is obviously seeing this as well. And he is telling me to go down there, go down there, go down there. As in? As in, drive the truck down to this vehicle to where Mr. Arbery and that vehicle was. Do you? I do not. Why? I don't want to, I don't know what is going on with this guy. And I don't want to escalate the situation. I mean, my thought at this point now is whatever happened up there, there's a likelihood that something has happened. Because when I tell him that the police are coming and he takes off running and then interacts with his vehicle, either trying to get in it or trying to avoid it or whatever happened, something's not right. I don't know what's going on. The cops are coming from my thought at this point. I'm not going to escalate this any further.
[01:48:49] Speaker 1: So what's your goal at this point?
[01:48:51] Speaker 2: My goal is to let the police, now, is to let the police know where he's at and just kind of watch what's going on to see where he's at, to see where he's going. All right.
[01:49:01] Speaker 1: Well, you say you don't want to go back down this way because of what you see. So how much time do you think it's been, if it's even possible to estimate, from the time that you first tried to talk to him, to the last time you tried to talk to him, to the time that he runs back and engages with this black sheriff?
[01:49:22] Speaker 2: This is an estimate, maybe two minutes. Okay. If that. Two minutes might be a long time. Okay. I can't put a time on it. All right. I really don't know.
[01:49:33] Speaker 1: What do you do if you don't go that way?
[01:49:36] Speaker 2: So I continue, I decided, I decided to go to continue down Burford to Zellwood, take this time to kind of get my bearings to figure out what to do, what's going on here. Okay. Where do you go? So on the map, you can see where Burford turns to Zellwood. All right. I turn onto Zellwood to the left and start going down that road. Okay. I'm maybe 10 miles an hour. My dad's at the back of the truck. So I can't, you know, with a new hip and stroke and all that. So I'm not going to go fast, you know, I don't want to hurt him. So I'm making my way towards the front of the neighborhood. All right. Um, I get to Holmes. I decide I'm going to turn on Holmes to see more than likely this guy's running back out of the neighborhood. I'm going to go to Holmes because I know that he is not behind me. I know that he's not where I could see down Holmes. I know where he's been. I can kind of figure out where he's at. And then the police are going to be here at any second. If I encounter them before they encounter what's going on, I could tell them where I saw him last. Maybe we could finally have this guy call. All right.
[01:50:59] Speaker 1: So your option is to go up to the front of the neighborhood. I could have. Yes. Okay. Instead, you come down Holmes. Yes. All right. When you get on Holmes, do you see anything? I don't. I don't.
[01:51:11] Speaker 2: What happens next? I drive down Holmes. I get about a house or two, halfway down to, I call it a dog leg. It's a real light turn. It's got some bushes and trees. All right.
[01:51:25] Speaker 1: Step forward just for a second and tell me if I'm pointing in the area of the dog leg. Yes. Is that about right? Yes. I'm going to note it with kind of a bend in it. Yeah. What do you mean by dog leg? I can't see at the very end of the road. Okay. So it's a visual that you can't see past. That's correct. Okay. So you come down Holmes, you say. No. Do you see anything?
[01:51:46] Speaker 2: I don't. All right. What do you do? Continue. At this point, I'm maybe riding a brake. Okay.
[01:51:54] Speaker 1: At any point in time, do you see something? Yes.
[01:51:58] Speaker 2: About halfway down.
[01:51:59] Speaker 1: Halfway down Holmes to the dog leg.
[01:52:01] Speaker 2: To the dog leg. Okay. I see Mr. Arbery. He is in the apex of the dog leg turning. I don't see him directly at me. He is in the process of turning at this point. Is he on the road? He is.
[01:52:16] Speaker 1: Okay. I'm going to put it over here to the side just so I can have some room. But you're saying that you see him turning? That's correct. Okay. You see him turn? Yes.
[01:52:25] Speaker ?: All right.
[01:52:26] Speaker 2: What do you do? I continue, same speed, continue to go that way. You approach the dog leg.
[01:52:34] Speaker 1: I get to the dog leg, yes. Do you see Roddy Bryan, you now know Roddy Bryan. Do you see the black truck at this moment? I do not. Meaning when he does the turn to come back down, do you see a truck following him?
[01:52:48] Speaker 2: No. There was no truck at that point. Okay. So what do you do? I continue on down home. So at this point, I am driving towards Satilla. And from the last time that I saw, this was just a second or two that I saw Mr. Arbery because he was in that corner. So he was in the middle of the turn and then a few strides and then he was out of sight.
[01:53:10] Speaker 1: All right, stop. Do you, I'm going to say mash the gas, which the southerners say. Did you step on the gas and haul tail down the road? No. Okay. I stayed wherever I was at. I was riding. I wasn't on the gas. I wasn't on the burning. All right. So he's continuing to run. Do you come across the dog leg? Yes. All right. When you come around the dog leg, do you see anything?
[01:53:31] Speaker 2: Yes. What do you see? I see the black vehicle at this point is at Satilla and Holmes. Okay. It has at this point turned and is coming to me from Satilla and Holmes towards Zellwood. And I'm coming from Zellwood towards Satilla. All right.
[01:53:55] Speaker 1: So I'm going to, I'm going to put a, where do we got? He said Chevy. So I'm going to put a C right there. So you see a vehicle down where?
[01:54:03] Speaker 2: At the end of, of Holmes and Stillside. Okay. And where is Mr. Arbery? Mr. Arbery is with the vehicle, front quarter panel. What side? Driver's side. Driver's side. So over on this side. Yes. Okay. Doing what? He is running with the truck. And then as we're getting closer, he looks like he's grabbing the truck at that point. What are you thinking? I'm thinking he's, it looked like he was trying to get in the door. If he wasn't, the vehicle wasn't behind him. He wasn't behind the vehicle. He was with the vehicle and he was on the vehicle. Um, there was an open door right there. This was, this was about where the scene happened. Okay. And so everything was open, but he was with the vehicle as it's coming. And they are slowly, they were on the right side, which would be his right side. On the right side of the road. Yes. On the correct car side. Yes. Okay. And slowly. And he wasn't, it wasn't a run. It was an idle pace, I guess, for vehicle, you know, I mean, he was at a job, but, uh, he was with the vehicle and they were coming into my lane. All right.
[01:55:18] Speaker 1: Are you at all wondering why Mr. Aubrey is not going somewhere other than this vehicle? That was my first thought.
[01:55:29] Speaker 2: Uh, I don't know why he was. Okay. It, I mean, it was, it was, my thought was, why is he attacking a truck? Why is he hitting a truck? All right. Now you're coming toward this truck. Now.
[01:55:44] Speaker 1: I was coming to, yeah, I was. Yes. I was coming to the truck and to stop. All right. Are you communicating with this truck at all? No. Doing any kind of signals, not arms out the window, telling him to do anything? No. Is he signaling to you? No. Can you even see the driver inside the truck? No, I didn't. I did not. No, I didn't see the signals. Okay.
[01:56:05] Speaker ?: What happened?
[01:56:06] Speaker 1: Let me ask this question. When you get to the point where you see Mr. Aubrey do the turnaround up here, do you shout anything out at him? No, I don't, I don't believe I did. You lean out in the window with a gun or anything like that? No. Okay. No. How much time would you say, you think it was, you know, you estimated two minutes at this phase here. How much time would you say that you've spent now coming around to this moment? It was probably the same. It was whatever, a vehicle idling.
[01:56:37] Speaker 2: And what, you know, getting, you're coming through there. I was, I might've been on the gas, you know, 10 miles an hour, but it was, can you hear anything?
[01:56:47] Speaker 1: Is your dad talking to you? Do you hear anything? I wasn't paying attention. Okay. That was not, that was not mine. Do you have a seat? Oh, I'm sorry. It's awkward at this point. Yeah. All right. Once you see what's happening here, what happens next?
[01:57:04] Speaker 2: I'm at the point, I'm coming to a stop.
[01:57:07] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:57:08] Speaker 2: I am in the, going to Sotilla Drive, I'm in the left lane. All right. Um, I'm probably 20 feet, 25, 30 feet from where I stopped at the, at the time of the shooting. I'm back that way, but they're coming down homes from Sotilla. Yes. And as he is on this truck, they are slowly angling into my lane.
[01:57:43] Speaker 1: From the, from the, from the right side of the road, the correct side to go this direction.
[01:57:47] Speaker 2: Shallow angle like that. Into your lane. Yep. Okay. So they get to where, it gets to where I'm pretty much in the, they're in the front of my vehicle. I'm at a stop. I'm thinking, hey, I hope he doesn't hit my truck. You know, because obviously the driver of the Chevy, Mr. Bryan is involved with Aubrey. Aubrey is involved with Mr. Bryan. They, they, I don't think they see me at all. I don't think there's, they're not, there's no correlation to me here. They get to 10 feet of my vehicle and Aubrey splits from the vehicle and runs down my passenger side between my truck and the ditch. Okay.
[01:58:25] Speaker 1: So push this side in the grass of the, the grass side of the road. Yes. Okay. So he runs that way. What about the black truck?
[01:58:35] Speaker 2: The black truck pulls off, gets back into his correct lane. Okay. And Mr. Aubrey starts running. Yep. And then the last thing they're heading to the dog leg. Yep. And the last I see is, um, him in front of the black truck and the black truck is, continuing, but it wasn't accelerating or anything like that. Okay. They broke off from each other at that point.
[01:58:58] Speaker 1: And you said they were heading toward the dog leg? Towards the dog leg, towards Zellwood. Did they go around the dog leg? Yes. From, yes. Did you lose sight of them? Uh, yes. Okay. What did you do at that moment?
[01:59:10] Speaker 2: Uh, continued, I'm not exactly sure exactly what I did at that moment, but I pulled the vehicle back up 10 feet and stop and parked from there.
[01:59:25] Speaker 1: I pulled the vehicle back up. What do you mean?
[01:59:28] Speaker 2: I'm sorry. Uh, well, after they passed, I continued to go forward, uh, forward to Sotilla Drive.
[01:59:36] Speaker 1: Before you moved forward to Sotilla, did you throw it up in reverse and start trucking backwards to go?
[01:59:43] Speaker 2: I did not. Why not? No. Once again, I don't want to escalate the situation. This is getting out of hand. This guy's, now looks like he's trying to get in this vehicle, verified from what I suspected on Burford when he was up there.
[01:59:57] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:59:58] Speaker 2: And, uh, the way that he interacted with the vehicle and then my past experiences with him is, no, I'm not, I don't, I don't want to get involved in this. I don't want to get with this unless I have to.
[02:00:08] Speaker 1: As they passed you, as Mr. Arbery passed you, did you roll the window down and hang the shotgun out the window? No. Did you pull the shotgun and aim it at him? I did not. Did you yell at him or say anything to him? I don't, don't believe I did. I don't, I don't, well, no, I did. Okay. Um. You get to the end of where you said you parked. Yes, sir. All right. So now you're down here. I'm just going to move it over. So, there's our street. You're parked down here. Again, here's the dog leg. All right. They're out of sight. Yes. All right. Why did you park there?
[02:00:47] Speaker 2: He is out of sight at this point. They're gone. They're no longer, there's nothing going on in front of me. I'm still under the impression that the police are coming. This guy's obviously, something's not right. He seems dangerous to me. He's trying to get in this vehicle. Um, I'm still under the impression the police are coming. I could see down to my house. I could see down to this dog leg. I could see Burford and I could see the rest of the tiller. This is a good chunk of the neighborhood. And I know where he just left from. If the police come, which I would assume would come off of, um, Highway 17 and come down to the tiller drive, past my house to where they're encountering me where I'm at. I can give them a good description of what's happening or where they at. Hey, it's down this road or this road or this road or that road. I decided to stay right there where I was at. All right. And where is your house compared to where you're seated in your car at that time or where you're parked? It's three houses down on the till. I could see it looking across that open yard. Okay. Um, I can see the yard. I can see the house there, man. Okay. Shouting distance from it.
[02:01:54] Speaker 1: All right. So now you're parked. You've taken up view. What do you do?
[02:01:59] Speaker 2: Get out of the vehicle, analyzing, seeing what's the situation, seeing if dad, what's going on with dad. Uh, that point I said, where are the cops? Where are the police? Dad said, I don't have a phone. Well, all right. The cops had me to call. Let me grab my phone. I go to reach for my phone and I look back. I don't know if dad yelled or, or if I was looking down the road, but I look down the road and I see Mr. Arbery running back towards me.
[02:02:30] Speaker 1: All right. So he is now coming back across the dogleg. Yes. He's, yeah, he's visual on the dogleg. Okay. Do you, do you know anything that has happened on the other side of the dogleg? I do not. Okay. But you say you see him running back towards you.
[02:02:47] Speaker 2: Yes. All right. Yes. What happens? I yell at him to stop. Stop where you're at. And I'm at this point. Hey, stop. More of a, more aggressive, more of control. Where is he running?
[02:02:58] Speaker 1: Where in the, where is he running towards you?
[02:03:01] Speaker 2: Is he in the road? Is he in grass? No, he's in the road. He's in the road on the same, I want to say he's in the same lane. Uh, he wasn't any further. He wasn't in the other lane. He might've been center lane to the center of the same lane, but he wasn't in the grass, wasn't in the ditch, wasn't in the center lane. Okay. He's running towards you. How far does he get towards you before you start saying stop? In the straightaway. So it was probably 30 yards.
[02:03:28] Speaker 1: Okay. And you, again, tell us what you do. Show us how you do it.
[02:03:33] Speaker 2: Yeah. So I yell at him to stop. You know, stop right there. Stop right there. He's continuing. We were in eye contact. Um, he's getting closer. I'm thinking he's, he's not looking left. He's not looking right. It's not a, and the way he's running, it's not a full sprint. It's not a full sprint. It's not a jog. The best way to describe it is like, uh, you got a running back. You're about the third pass and they're, they're staged up. You know, they're, they're kind of on their toes, ready to bolt. He was at that moment. He was at, he was in that stance, I guess, or in that run. Okay.
[02:04:07] Speaker 1: So 30 yards, you say he's making eye contact.
[02:04:10] Speaker 2: He is. With you. Yes. You say to stop, stop, stop where you're at. Okay. He continues. It's about where you're at from me at this point. This is, and this is the second, two seconds. What do you mean this is two seconds? To how long it took from me yelling and stop to realizing that he is coming to me. Okay. That I need to do something about this.
[02:04:33] Speaker 1: All right.
[02:04:34] Speaker 2: At this point, he's continuing, still eye contact. I'm at my truck, doors open. I'm on the inside of my door. I see he's coming. I go to grab for my shotgun. As soon as I turn and go from my shotgun, he turns. At this point, he made it to about 10 feet from the back of my truck. My dad's yelling at him. And he runs back. He runs back towards Doglick. Goes back towards?
[02:04:57] Speaker 1: Zillowin.
[02:04:58] Speaker 2: On? On? Holmes, obviously.
[02:05:01] Speaker 1: Holmes, yes. So he comes down. I knew I was going to do it. It's the permanent. He runs down here to a point. You're saying stop. And then you say he turns around and goes back. Yes. Yes.
[02:05:17] Speaker ?: All right.
[02:05:20] Speaker 1: What do you think? When did he turn?
[02:05:25] Speaker 2: At what point did he turn? He was about, like I said, about 10 feet from the back of my truck. But my action going into my truck is what made him turn, I believe. Okay. He turns. Then what happens? He starts running back down to Tilla. I pull the shotgun out and I start going down there to see what's happening. I said, no, I need to stay. I need to stay where I'm at. My dad's up here in the back of the truck. I know what's going on here. I don't know what's going on down there. And this guy is still irrational. Something's still not right about this. I'm going to stay right where I'm at. Okay. So I put the shotgun right back, back on the door, pick up the phone, call 911. Call 911.
[02:06:11] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:06:13] Speaker 2: As soon as I call 911, I dial, I pick it up to the ear and I see Mr. Arbery turn and come back. I don't know how long it took. I mean seconds. It was less than. Okay.
[02:06:25] Speaker 1: So he's gone back. When you told him to stop the first time on Holmes, now he's gone back across the dogleg. Right now is up here, back across. Now he's coming back. Okay. This is now the second time he's coming back down Holmes. Yes. Okay. You said you just given the cell phone to your dad. Yes. How is it that you decided to call 911 at that moment?
[02:06:53] Speaker 2: Prior to the second encounter, prior to the encounter I just had with him. Yeah. I asked my dad, I said, where are the police? And he said that he didn't have his phone. And I realized that he has not called 911. And actually as that was going on, I had to crawl into my truck and go to the passenger floorboard where my phone was and slid off. Okay. And called 911. And as soon as I called 911, I looked and Mr. Arbery has already passed, the dogleg was coming back again. Okay.
[02:07:25] Speaker 1: So, when he comes back again across the dogleg, did you see anything behind him?
[02:07:30] Speaker 2: No.
[02:07:31] Speaker 1: Do you see the black truck anywhere? I did not. Other than Mr. Arbery, do you see anything?
[02:07:37] Speaker 2: No, it was just, I was focused on Mr. Arbery.
[02:07:41] Speaker 1: Sure. And how is he coming back?
[02:07:43] Speaker 2: Same, same way that I just mentioned to you prior. He was in a jog at pace. Okay. Like I said, he was like spring loaded, like, you know, like, like a running back. Like, he's ready to, ready to, to, to bolt or to move any way he wanted, you know. But it was focused on me. Right.
[02:08:03] Speaker 1: Now, you've seen the video, the video showing him running towards you. Right. Is that what you believe to be that, this moment now?
[02:08:12] Speaker 2: Yeah, this, yeah, this is that moment. Okay.
[02:08:15] Speaker 1: Yes. As he's running towards you at this moment, what are you thinking?
[02:08:19] Speaker 2: That, I'm pretty sure that he is going to attack.
[02:08:26] Speaker 1: What makes you think that?
[02:08:28] Speaker 2: Uh, the totality of the circumstance that I just witnessed with the truck, what happened on the 11th, the way that he acted on 11th. And then his eye contact on me, and not looking left or right, or pivoting and avoiding where I'm standing, where I'm at on this truck.
[02:08:50] Speaker 1: Are there, in your mind at that moment, are there places that Mr. Arbery could run to? Yes. Are there locations available to run to or through? Yes.
[02:09:01] Speaker 2: Like yards.
[02:09:02] Speaker 1: There's yards. There's ditch.
[02:09:04] Speaker 2: Um, the ditch that was right there at that scene is shallow. Like when, run back to where I saw him with Mr. Brian's truck. One of the things that kind of threw me off was as they're coming, he wasn't blocked. He could have went into this ditch here and into this open yard. It's a very shallow ditch. It's probably from mound to mound four feet wide. But it was very, maybe two feet deep all the way across and it was dry. You could hop across it.
[02:09:41] Speaker 1: Um, at any point do you, you see in the video, we all see in the video where you raise your shotgun? Yes.
[02:09:50] Speaker 2: You see that?
[02:09:51] Speaker 1: Yes.
[02:09:52] Speaker 2: Okay. Do you remember doing that? He was closing in at this point. I've yelled at him to stop several times. This one again, I screamed at him to stop, screamed at him to stop. He is focused in on me and he's at this gate where he's looking like he's about to run. He has the possibility to get this burst out. And if he gets this burst out at this point, at this point when I pulled the shotgun, I wouldn't have time react if he wanted to get on me or to pull a gun or have a knife or if he wanted to do ill will. At this point, I would, this is when I needed to show him to deter him to stay, to do not come at me.
[02:10:38] Speaker 1: How do you know? How do you know at this point you have to do that?
[02:10:44] Speaker 2: Because everything that's happened, everything that's going on and him closing in on me.
[02:10:50] Speaker 1: How do you know at this point that you have to raise the gun or he could be on you like that?
[02:10:55] Speaker 2: From training, from training and prior experience. There's a thing called tutor drill. A what? Tutor drill. Okay. It says that any average person, it takes 21 feet for somebody to react. It's an average of 21 feet for somebody to react to pull a weapon and fire two shots at somebody that charges you with a knife or anything like that. Mr. Arby's already running. He's had a pretty good clip. He's directed at me. He sees that I have a weapon. I'm yelling at him to stop and he's continuing. You say he sees that you have a weapon.
[02:11:36] Speaker 1: How do you know that he sees you have a weapon? What do you do?
[02:11:39] Speaker 2: I had the weapon out at this point and I had it down at a position like this. Port arms is what they call it. And it's blatant that I had this shotgun.
[02:11:51] Speaker 1: When you raise it at that moment for the reasons that you did, does it have the effect that you hoped it would?
[02:11:59] Speaker 2: Yes, it did. Which was what? It did. He angled, he no longer went my direction. Okay. As soon as I drew, as soon as I drew the weapon on him, you can see in the video that he darts to the left and darts to the right and then commits to the right. And he does that. As soon as he darts, I would put the weapon back down and move away from my vehicle and make a distance. I'm thinking he's going to go across this yard.
[02:12:30] Speaker 4: Well, what if he did?
[02:12:31] Speaker 2: I'll just let him keep on going. Let him run on by like I've done on Burford, like I let him do on Holmes when him and Chevrolet found him.
[02:12:45] Speaker 1: You say you let him do it. You mean when you were on Burford and he ran away from you? Yes. You mean you didn't follow him? I did not. You didn't shoot him? No. And on Holmes, that's what you mean when he ran away from your direction? That's right. You didn't follow him?
[02:13:06] Speaker 2: No.
[02:13:07] Speaker 1: You didn't shoot him? So if he comes around the right side of the truck and decides to bolt through the yard, was the yard open? It was. And if he did that, what would you do next?
[02:13:20] Speaker 2: I would watch him run on by. Because at this point, I know the police are coming now. And I know they're going to come from the front of the neighborhood. And if he turns right, he is going out of the neighborhood. And I could watch him. I could see him. See where he's going. And he's gone. He is no longer a threat to that vehicle that he was just interacting with. He's no longer a threat to my father or myself. If he turned left, I know which way he went. Police come in. Hey, right down there. Or if he turns around and goes back the other way, that's where he's at.
[02:13:50] Speaker 1: He's coming towards you. He raises a shotgun. Yes. To deter. He has the effect. He turns.
[02:13:57] Speaker 2: Now where does he go? He makes it to the corner of the road. He never goes into the grass. Okay. Straightens up and starts running back straight to the truck where my father's in the back. All right.
[02:14:09] Speaker 1: You've seen the video. I don't want to ask you to interpret what you've seen on the video. I want you to tell us what you were seeing at that moment. Okay. When he runs up the right side of the truck, what are you thinking?
[02:14:22] Speaker 2: That he is, after I point the shotgun at him, when he angles and then he turns and starts making it directly to the truck, I'm thinking, well, he's coming back to the truck again. My father's in the back of the vehicle. So? So what?
[02:14:46] Speaker 1: Your dad's in the back of the vehicle. So?
[02:14:49] Speaker 2: Yeah. So he's, the path he's making, he's going to make contact with the vehicle. He's going to be around the vehicle. He can jump up, grab dad, or still under the impression that he might be armed and he could run up and shoot. I'm not going to be able to see him at this point. He's going to be, I have a vehicle between me and him. So at this point, I leave, I'm a little past my door.
[02:15:12] Speaker 1: You are, if this is your door and this is the truck, at some point, are you in the crux of the door?
[02:15:20] Speaker 2: I was when he was running, running to me when I drew the weapon. I was right at the, outside of the crux, right at the edge of the door jam.
[02:15:27] Speaker 1: Okay.
[02:15:28] Speaker 2: And then when he turned and went to the passenger side of my vehicle when he flexed, I went ahead and moved to center of the road. That's what I did. Outside of this? Why? Yeah. I was gaining distance. I was making distance. It was obvious. I thought it was obvious at the time that he was going to glance and just go through that yard. Okay. That was my, that was what I was thinking was going to happen.
[02:15:50] Speaker 1: You said your dad's in the back of the truck. Yeah. Stupid question. Do you love your dad? Yeah. Were you worried about him? Yes, I was. So you come here and now what?
[02:16:00] Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm on that side of the vehicle. He's running back. I'm losing. I'm not going to see what he's doing, what he's capable of, what he's going to do. I don't know what he's going to do. What do you mean you're losing? I'm losing visual, losing sight of him, losing where his hands are. Because of what? Because of my vehicle.
[02:16:16] Speaker 1: Okay.
[02:16:17] Speaker 2: Because of my truck.
[02:16:18] Speaker 1: So where do you move to?
[02:16:19] Speaker 2: I'm going to the front of my truck. And at this point, I'm thinking either he's, he's on my dad at this point, or he is going to run by, or he's going to see that I have gone to the front of my truck and he's going to finally turn and glance, you know, and glance to go across that yard. I don't know, you know, he could, he can try to jump in my truck from the passenger side. He could lay down, he could draw a weapon if he's at this point. This is the point that's critical that I think.
[02:16:52] Speaker 1: All right. So just a critical point. To be deliberate about this. Yeah. If this is the front hood of your truck, this, this. On which side? Front right. Okay. So the steering wheel's right here. Okay. Yes. Gotcha. The passenger side. And you're that over here. That's correct. Okay. You're saying you can't see what happens that you can get in the truck. Is this in your mindset at all? It was, yes.
[02:17:19] Speaker ?: It was.
[02:17:20] Speaker 2: And what is this? It's hiding. It's hiding or being away from me, cover, concealment. Cover, concealment. Yeah. He's covered. I can't, he's concealed. I can't see him. I can't see what his actions are or what he's doing. I can't see his hands. I can't see what he's got. Still an impression that he might be on him. Yeah. He's close to my father. I can't see what's happening. I need to see what's going on. And he has access to my vehicle, which is still running by the way.
[02:17:45] Speaker 1: So what do you do?
[02:17:46] Speaker 2: So I go to the front of my vehicle. All right.
[02:17:48] Speaker 1: Front where?
[02:17:49] Speaker 2: Front left, corner panel, turning into it, going to the front of the hood.
[02:17:54] Speaker 1: All right. So if, if we're here, this is the front left of the quarter panel. And this is the right front quarter panel. From here to here. Where do you come to on the front of your car? Right to the, I guess, right here. So I'm now standing at the front quarter panel. Yeah.
[02:18:12] Speaker 2: Now I'm back away from it. Where are you? Right at the light, right at the corner of that corner. Right here. Yep. Where's your gun? It's in my hands, port arms.
[02:18:22] Speaker 1: Port arms is what?
[02:18:23] Speaker 2: I'm down. I got it down. Both hands on it, hand on grip and, you know, on both. And what are you doing? Coming around. I get to it. I was going to get to the front, to the center of the vehicle. At that point, he was right there. If he decided to turn, he'd see me and continue running. That was what I would assume was going to happen. I get to the front of the truck. And by the time I get to the front of the truck, he is at the front corner panel on the right-hand side. And he turns and is on me in a, is on me. I mean in a flash. I mean, immediately on me.
[02:18:59] Speaker 1: On you doing what?
[02:19:00] Speaker 2: He grabs the shotgun and I believe I was struck on that first instance that we made contact.
[02:19:12] Speaker 1: What were you thinking at that moment?
[02:19:14] Speaker 2: I was thinking of my son. It sounds weird, but that was the first thing that hit me.
[02:19:22] Speaker 1: What did you do? I shot.
[02:19:26] Speaker ?: Why? He had my gun. He, he struck me.
[02:19:29] Speaker 2: It was obvious that he was, it was obvious that he was attacking me, that if he would have got the shotgun from me, then it was a, this is a life or death situation. And I'm going to have to, to stop him from doing this. So I shot.
[02:19:50] Speaker 1: Did he stop when you shot?
[02:19:52] Speaker 2: He did not. No, he did not.
[02:19:55] Speaker 1: Can you, can you remember everything, every hand, every movement, can you remember those things?
[02:20:02] Speaker 2: No. I know that I was, I know that I got hit and I know that I was, I was, weaponry, weapon retention. We were talking about it earlier. Yeah. With a shotgun or a rifle, it's called the push pull method. And when somebody's got a weapon, you go to port arms and you push out and you pull down is what you're taught. I was a stickler with it, with everybody that we trained. That was my biggest fear that somebody's on a boat and they come up because the pistol's holstered, rifle or shotgun, you got it in your hand. It'd be easier for somebody to get it from you. So I always exclusively train people to do this push pull. So it's natural for me. It's, you know, it's, it's trained into you. It's muscle memory. And when this happened, I was in port arms, I got struck. And I remember when I came down, I got hit on top of the head and he had the weapon in his hand. So I pushed and pulled, still getting hit.
[02:21:08] Speaker 1: And did you get it free from his grip?
[02:21:11] Speaker 2: I don't believe I did. I don't know. I'm, I don't know exactly when or where, or if he's continued grabbing, but we were together, we were locked up. He was on that shotgun.
[02:21:22] Speaker 1: Do you, you've seen, you know, we've talked about where you see you being pushed across. Do you remember that? Do you remember where your bodies were moving?
[02:21:32] Speaker 2: I know that I was, I know that he was, I didn't know where I was at, but I knew that he was on me. I knew that I was, I was losing this. I knew that if I was getting tripped, if I would have tripped or if he would have got a lucky strike on my head, or if I would have have lost that grip on that shotgun, that I've, that I would have been shot or I would have been, I'd have been in serious trouble at that point. I knew that he was, I knew that he was overpowering me. But I didn't know which direction or, or what mechanics he was doing to, to overpower me.
[02:22:06] Speaker 1: Do you, at that time, did you remember how many times you shot the gun?
[02:22:14] Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I thought I shot twice. But you shot it?
[02:22:18] Speaker 1: You shot it?
[02:22:19] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:22:20] Speaker 1: Yes. Do you, like I said, do you remember how many times you did?
[02:22:23] Speaker 2: I thought it was twice until later on speaking with the investigator that I realized that it was three shots. But I shot, the first shot I knew I shot, and then the second shot, I shot again because I was still, I was still fighting. I was still, he was all over me. He was still all over that shotgun and he was not relenting. So I had, I shot again to stop him. And then that set, that third shot, which I thought was second, that, that final shot, he disengaged. And at that point, he let go. He turned and continued to run down, um, down St. Taylor. And at that point, I was in shock. I, I, I turned around. I don't know where I was going. My dad came out and he was yelling that he's got his hand under him. I turned around. We got over there and, uh, pulled his hand out from under him and realized that he was deceased. And I looked up and the police were right there. Um, I stood up, realized that, you know, that I got a gun here and that he is, that he's passed away. The police are on scene. So I walked over to the side and put my shotgun down. After that, it was, it was a blur. It was shocking. I mean, it was a blur.
[02:23:59] Speaker 1: Do you remember speaking to the police on the scene?
[02:24:01] Speaker 2: I do.
[02:24:03] Speaker 1: Do you remember going back and giving a statement to Officer Nohilly? Yes. Did Officer Nohilly give you an opportunity to reject talking to him?
[02:24:18] Speaker 2: He did.
[02:24:19] Speaker 1: Did you agree to talk to him?
[02:24:21] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:24:22] Speaker 1: Do you remember having to sign a form and all that technical, legal stuff?
[02:24:28] Speaker 2: Yeah. He told me, uh, he gave me my Miranda rights. And I agreed to him and agreed to, to, uh, make a statement.
[02:24:35] Speaker 1: What was it like sitting in the room with Detective Nohilly, trying to recall the specifics of this event?
[02:24:45] Speaker 2: Uh, I struggled. I, I was trying to give him as much information as is possible. Um, I thought that I did a good job until I've read the statements.
[02:24:58] Speaker 1: You thought you did a good job of what?
[02:25:00] Speaker 2: Uh, I had given him a clear, a clear idea of what happened. Reading the statements now, um, I was all over the place.
[02:25:09] Speaker 1: All over the place in what way?
[02:25:11] Speaker 2: In describing what happened, giving the dates and the timeline of what happened. Uh, it seemed that I was speaking, it seemed like I was reliving the situation. I would go to one thing and I would say, I saw him on, on Burford. And then we lost the phone. But when I grabbed the phone, you know, it was, it was just everywhere. I was everywhere. And it was under stress. I was under, this was less than two hours after, after shooting. You know what I mean? I was, I was not in my right mind at that.
[02:25:46] Speaker 1: Travis, you, you understand that you've been charged with having an agreement of sorts with Ronnie Bryant.
[02:25:57] Speaker 3: Objection.
[02:25:58] Speaker 1: What's the objection?
[02:26:01] Speaker 4: Well, we can get into it. It's the way you're describing the charges.
[02:26:06] Speaker 5: Okay. All right. That's sustained.
[02:26:09] Speaker 1: Travis, did you ever, ever coordinate with Ronnie Bryant to box in Ahmaud Arbery? Yes, sir. Did you ever do anything to try to use him as a bookend to try to corner Ahmaud Arbery? I did not. Did you want to stop Ahmaud Arbery and talk to him? I did. Did you want to stop him and hold him so the police could come and arrest him? That was my plan. And by hold him, I mean, you know, detain him. Not let him go anywhere. At least keep an eye on him.
[02:26:42] Speaker 3: Leading.
[02:26:43] Speaker 1: Sustained.
[02:26:44] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:26:45] Speaker 1: No, don't answer. It's been sustained. Sorry. Been sustained. Other than the time that you put your shotgun on your shoulder and the time that you had it in your hands when Mr. Arbery grabbed it, did you ever pull out your gun? No, I did not.
[02:27:07] Speaker 2: I had my gun out and was walking towards the dogleg, the first encounter we had on Satilla, on Holmes, but he was already running away. He didn't see it. Fair enough. I asked you to pull it out.
[02:27:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. But that, I think you've explained, you're just putting it back in trouble. Did you leave the house that day with the intention to kill the guy? I did not. That your dad mentioned to you? I did not. Did you leave the house that day? Objection.
[02:27:36] Speaker 3: Leaving.
[02:27:37] Speaker 1: It's not telling him that he did in fact leave the house that day. It's did you leave the house that day? It's leaving. It's sustained.
[02:27:45] Speaker 4: It's a yes or no question. Don't ask him a yes or no question. It's leaving.
[02:27:48] Speaker 1: Well, it's not a leading if the answer could be yes or no. But I'll.
[02:27:53] Speaker 4: We can debate it all you want, Mr. Sheffield.
[02:27:55] Speaker 1: I understand. Okay. Give me one second, please. All right. Enough of other questions. State will have girls.
[02:28:27] Speaker 4: Let's do this. Let's take a, let's take a ten minute recess. We'll come back for additional evidence. All right.
[02:28:35] Speaker 1: For adjourned.
[02:28:57] Speaker ?: All right. Let's go ahead and take ten minutes. We're in recess. Sir, you can go ahead and step down. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right.
[02:29:09] Speaker 4: Let's go ahead and take ten minutes.
[02:29:11] Speaker ?: We're in recess.
[02:29:12] Speaker 4: Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess.
[02:29:15] Speaker ?: Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess.
[02:29:16] Speaker 4: Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess. Sir, you can go ahead and step down.
[02:29:19] Speaker ?: We're in recess. Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess. Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess. Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We're in recess. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[02:38:56] Speaker 4: Thank you. We are back on, Defendant's President, represented by counsel.
[02:39:29] Speaker 1: Yes, Your Honor. I made the state aware that I wanted to make a brief motion. First of all, the state had alluded earlier in the course of the trial that they intended to ask Mr. McMichael whether or not he said the expletive over Mr. Arbery's body. The state must have a good faith basis to ask that question, that that actually could be evidence in the trial. If the court recalls, that was a statement made by Agent Dial during the preliminary hearing about who said it.
[02:40:05] Speaker 4: And I understand the only person that heard it would have been the co-defendant.
[02:40:09] Speaker 1: The only person that heard it would have been the co-defendant, and so it's my understanding that the co-defendant is not testifying. There is no basis then to try to get the statement in. And so for that reason, there's no good faith basis to ask the question. It's just going to inject that issue, which is currently not in the case. And so this is something that we're asking the court to limit the state from even asking the question. I certainly know what the answer will be, but I think it's even going beyond what the state could say is a good faith basis for asking the question, because the only place it comes from is from Mr. Bryan. Number two, Your Honor, is I believe through the course of that direct examination, we did not put Mr. McMichael's character into evidence. We did not talk about things that would open the door to what the state has previously withdrawn as its 404b statements and other postings or videos or things that they withdrew. Similarly, to ask the court to have a candid conversation about that now, the state indicated that if it was going to do something like that, it would certainly make the court and the defense aware and we could hear that outside the presence of the jury, I bring it to the court's attention because I think that we have not opened the door. We did not put his character into issue. Now, we're asking the court to hear from the state and kind of see where we are.
[02:41:48] Speaker 4: From the state.
[02:41:50] Speaker 3: Judge, he just finished his direct examination. I've got a half an hour worth of cross and then we're probably going to break for the evening. If I may, I'd like to be able to think and review my probably 40 pages of notes before I go ahead and let the court know what my plan is for the continuation of cross tomorrow. I will not go into it today.
[02:42:13] Speaker 4: Okay. We'll address in the morning then.
[02:42:16] Speaker 3: Thank you, Judge.
[02:42:17] Speaker ?: All right.
[02:42:19] Speaker 1: We're going to release our other witnesses then since it sounds like we're going to stop on Mr. McMichael today. It sounds like it. It sounds like it.
[02:42:25] Speaker 4: Probably the more than enough for the day.
[02:42:28] Speaker 1: Very good.
[02:42:29] Speaker 4: That's really for the day, correct? Not permanently. What?
[02:42:33] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[02:42:34] Speaker 4: For the day.
[02:42:34] Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you.
[02:42:39] Speaker 4: All right. All right. Witnesses on the stand. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:42:45] Speaker 3: Yes, Judge. Yes, Judge.
[02:43:09] Speaker ?: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:43:46] Speaker 5: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:43:49] Speaker ?: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:44:40] Speaker 3: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:44:54] Speaker 2: I understand we are ready to go.
[02:44:55] Speaker 3: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:45:11] Speaker ?: I understand we are ready to go.
[02:45:12] Speaker 2: I understand we are ready to go.
[02:45:13] Speaker 3: I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go. I understand we are ready to go.
[02:45:20] Speaker 2: I understand we are ready to go.
[02:45:21] Speaker 3: Okay. And you know that she had her purse stolen on January 29th of 2019, right?
[02:45:31] Speaker 2: I was under the impression that it was in the summertime.
[02:45:34] Speaker 3: Okay. And you understand that she posted this to Facebook on January 30th, 2019 all about the fact that she left her car unlocked and somebody went into it and stole her purse.
[02:45:46] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:45:47] Speaker 2: Do you remember that? It sounds familiar. I knew that it was under assumption that it was under her car. So yeah, that's probably not right.
[02:45:54] Speaker 3: Do you remember that you posted in response to that?
[02:45:57] Speaker 2: I do not.
[02:46:00] Speaker 3: Do you remember that your post was playing with fire on this side of the neighborhood?
[02:46:05] Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
[02:46:07] Speaker 3: Now you talked about crime in Sotilla Shores, but isn't it true that Sotilla Shores only had one burglary call in all of 2019 and it was a false alarm?
[02:46:29] Speaker 2: I heard that there were several burglaries from my mother and then from here and from the other neighbors. And then seeing a burglary on the Facebook page, that was what I was heard about the neighborhood.
[02:46:46] Speaker 3: So you're telling this jury that what you heard was rumor from other people?
[02:46:51] Speaker 2: It was what I was told from my mother and seeing on Facebook and from the neighbors.
[02:46:57] Speaker 3: Okay. So you don't know this from the police, that's correct?
[02:47:00] Speaker 2: I did hear it from the police, no.
[02:47:01] Speaker 3: Okay.
[02:47:02] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:47:03] Speaker 3: And so you understand that there were only four entering auto complaints in all of 2019 in Sotilla Shores.
[02:47:13] Speaker 2: I knew that there were several entering autos. Yes, ma'am.
[02:47:16] Speaker 3: Okay. So we have Kim Ballesteros and she was in January, right? That's what she said. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And then we have the Herndons and they were in December, like December 7th or 8th of 2019. Do you remember that?
[02:47:30] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:47:31] Speaker 3: Okay. And the Herndons had left their car unlocked in their driveway and it was the white guy who had come up and gone into it, right?
[02:47:38] Speaker 2: I didn't know that the vehicle was unlocked or the race of who was suspected. I just knew that they had stuff stolen from their vehicle.
[02:47:46] Speaker 3: So it's fair to say you had incomplete information about who was committing the crimes in Sotilla Shores? Yes.
[02:47:53] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:47:54] Speaker 3: So the information you had being incomplete, you started making assumptions about who must be doing this, right?
[02:48:07] Speaker 2: I didn't make assumptions at that point until February 11th when I saw what I saw that evening.
[02:48:15] Speaker 3: Okay. And then you assumed this must be the person responsible for all the crime within Sotilla Shores.
[02:48:20] Speaker 2: I was under the assumption that having Mr. Arger been seen multiple times on the video on 220 Sotilla Drive and the stuff stolen out of that house, to continue to come back to that house and to be, I guess as brazen as after I've witnessed him go through that yard and look to be creeping coming in and then put the lights on him and then him acting like he was armed under my, the way that he reached for his pants. And then ran into that house and then walking around afterwards, seeing that and knowing that he saw me, that I saw him and that he continued to go on and that he's been there several times. Led me to believe that, yes, that these burglaries that I've been hearing about and that I knew about at 220 could have been him because I saw him. And then this is verified from the police and from the videos from that evening and from talking to Officer Rash and Mr. Albenzi that they see him as well that, yeah, this is a probability that this is the guy.
[02:49:38] Speaker 3: So it's, let's go ahead and break that down, okay? Your mom and dad, well, your father especially, told you that Officer Rash had stopped by, correct?
[02:49:50] Speaker 2: On the 11th?
[02:49:51] Speaker 3: No, no, I'm sorry, bad question. You understand that Officer Rash in December met with your father and told him about the fact that Mr. English had items stolen off of his boat and Mr. English suspected his subcontractors.
[02:50:05] Speaker 2: I didn't know where my dad got that information. I did not know that it came from Rash and I believe it was my mother that told me that and then my dad started repeating it afterwards, but it was my mother that was the first one.
[02:50:19] Speaker 3: Okay, so your mom told you that Larry English had items stolen off of his boat and suspected his subcontractors, correct?
[02:50:26] Speaker 2: No, there was stuff stolen off of the boat and that, then when she said that, there has been people in this house. I didn't know who was stolen, but I just know that there was, they have been people in that house, verify that people have been in the house and then there's been stuff been stolen.
[02:50:41] Speaker 3: And that's multiple people in the house, correct? Yes. Okay, so not just Mr. Arbery. That's correct. Okay, so we have, you knew about the white couple who had gone in?
[02:50:52] Speaker 2: I knew that there was several people, I didn't know, I didn't know race, I didn't know couple, I just knew that there's been several people seen at that house at that time.
[02:51:02] Speaker 3: So several different people in your mind had been going into that open, unsecured construction site during this period of time. That's correct. So any one of these people could be the people who had taken the items off of their English boat. Absolutely. So I wanted to ask you about July 13th and the man who was homeless under the bridge?
[02:51:34] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:51:35] Speaker 3: White, black, Asian, Hispanic. He was white. Okay. And then you talked about the ATM situation, that was when in 2008? 2008. The city of Pascagoula?
[02:51:53] Speaker 2: It was.
[02:51:54] Speaker 3: Pascagoula?
[02:51:55] Speaker 2: Pascagoula.
[02:51:56] Speaker 3: Thank you, Pascagoula. City of Pascagoula. Did you report that at that time?
[02:52:02] Speaker 2: I did not.
[02:52:03] Speaker 3: And the two people who had come up to you, black, white, Asian, Hispanic?
[02:52:08] Speaker 2: They were black.
[02:52:09] Speaker 3: And now in 2011 you said, some guy attempted to get into your car. Was this person black, white, Asian, Hispanic?
[02:52:19] Speaker 2: He was white.
[02:52:20] Speaker 3: Did he appear to be homeless?
[02:52:22] Speaker 2: No. Okay.
[02:52:24] Speaker 3: No, he did not. Did he appear to be a worker?
[02:52:26] Speaker 2: He seemed to be strung out, I would say. It was quick. It was night.
[02:52:33] Speaker 3: And you did not report it to the police or the city of Pascagoula?
[02:52:39] Speaker 2: Jackson County Sheriff's Department. Jackson County Sheriff's Department. I contacted a co-worker and let him know what was going on, what happened, where I was at. And he said, "Yeah, we'll go check his name on it." I didn't call emergency line or I called a deputy sheriff, a friend of mine.
[02:52:52] Speaker 3: Okay, so you had a friend who then went and checked it out. So no police report.
[02:52:55] Speaker 2: I thought he did. I thought he made a report. Um. Okay.
[02:52:59] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. Thank you.
[02:53:32] Speaker 3: So when we're looking here, once again, at State's Exhibit 147, Mr. Sheffield played part of it for you earlier. Do you remember that?
[02:53:42] Speaker 2: Which one was it?
[02:53:43] Speaker 3: This is your father's July 13th, 2019 911 call.
[02:53:47] Speaker 2: Yes, sir.
[02:53:48] Speaker 3: Okay. And so I think we got about one minute into it.
[02:53:55] Speaker 6: And my son and I just discovered a guy. We think he may be living. It was the Bluff Creek Bridge on 17th. We just went up there and made contact with a real shady-looking fellow. And, you know, the possibility he may be the one that's been breaking into all these audible fields right there. I just wanted to make somebody aware there was somebody living under there.
[02:54:21] Speaker 3: Was that the remainder of the call where he called the guy under the bridge a shady-looking guy?
[02:54:26] Speaker 2: There was a few more to it, but yeah, I mean, that was a continuum of that audio, obviously.
[02:54:34] Speaker 3: And you made contact with the shady-looking white guy under the fancy Bluff Bridge while armed, correct?
[02:54:45] Speaker 2: I did, yes, ma'am.
[02:54:45] Speaker 3: And your father had his gun on him, too, correct?
[02:54:48] Speaker 2: I believe he did. I would assume he did. Yes, ma'am.
[02:54:51] Speaker 3: Okay. And did you brandish and show your weapons to the man?
[02:54:54] Speaker 2: I did not.
[02:54:57] Speaker 3: This was just some sort of pleasant conversation with the homeless guy under the bridge, is what you're telling this jury?
[02:55:01] Speaker 2: Yeah, it came pleasant. Once I split between him and the machete that he had there and asked him, you know, how's he doing, what's going on? He stayed right where he was and continued to finish, and I didn't see a threat.
[02:55:17] Speaker 3: Okay. But your dad still decided afterwards to call 911?
[02:55:23] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:55:24] Speaker 3: Not before?
[02:55:26] Speaker 2: We walked up on the guy. We didn't, you know, once we investigated, once we saw that there was somebody there and what was happening, yeah, we still called to let the police know what's going on.
[02:55:39] Speaker 3: You took it upon yourselves to go ahead and investigate it, correct?
[02:55:44] Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, we did.
[02:55:47] Speaker 3: All right. So let's go ahead and talk about your time in the Coast Guard. So in the Coast Guard, when you first start out, it's E1, E2, E3, correct?
[02:56:02] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[02:56:03] Speaker 3: And then you become a petty officer at E4.
[02:56:05] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[02:56:06] Speaker 3: Now, within the petty officer category, it goes all the way up to, like, E9.
[02:56:10] Speaker 2: E9.
[02:56:11] Speaker 3: And then you can go all the way up to a warrant officer, correct? Yeah. All right. And you had been in for about nine years?
[02:56:22] Speaker 2: Yeah, nine's a change, yes, ma'am.
[02:56:24] Speaker 3: All right. So you had to do standard recruit training in 2007?
[02:56:31] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:56:32] Speaker 3: And then machinery technician training from April 14th of 2008 to July 3rd of 2008?
[02:56:39] Speaker 2: That sounds right.
[02:56:42] Speaker 3: And then July 13th through August 13th of 2009, basic boarding officer, correct?
[02:56:48] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:56:49] Speaker ?: All right.
[02:56:51] Speaker 3: And the basic boarding officer, do you take that when you become an E4 or before that?
[02:56:56] Speaker 2: No, you take it after you become an E4. If you're, if the committee officer decides that you would be a good candidate to go to it, it's not mandatory.
[02:57:07] Speaker ?: All right.
[02:57:08] Speaker 3: And then in 2010, from August 2nd, 2010 through September 10th, 2010, you had air conditioning and refrigeration classes during that period of time?
[02:57:19] Speaker 2: I did.
[02:57:19] Speaker 3: All right. So when you left the Coast Guard, your rank was still E4, right?
[02:57:27] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[02:57:27] Speaker 3: And that is a machinery technician?
[02:57:30] Speaker 2: That was the right. Yes, the right. The right was E4. Yes, ma'am. All right.
[02:57:36] Speaker 3: So back in 2009, when you'd taken your basic boarding officer classes, you understood what the Fifth Amendment was, right?
[02:57:46] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[02:57:47] Speaker 3: The right to remain silent?
[02:57:49] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:57:50] Speaker 3: And you heard Jason Seacrest testify that law enforcement cannot force anyone to speak with them?
[02:57:58] Speaker 2: That's right.
[02:57:58] Speaker 3: Okay. So you learned, as part of your time in the military, that you can't force people to speak with you? That's correct. Okay. And that if someone walks away, you have to let them walk away?
[02:58:12] Speaker 6: Yes.
[02:58:12] Speaker 3: In fact, you were trained that displaying a weapon may be considered psychological coercion, which is prohibited by the courts and, as a law enforcement officer, may be grounds for suppressing evidence. Isn't that what you were taught?
[02:58:32] Speaker 2: Under certain situations. Yes, ma'am.
[02:58:34] Speaker 3: In addition, you were also taught that the best weapons retention technique is to not make your weapon accessible to anyone, right?
[02:58:47] Speaker 2: Under certain situations. Yes, ma'am.
[02:58:56] Speaker 3: And you were also taught about the deadly force triangle, correct?
[02:59:04] Speaker 2: Yes.
[02:59:17] Speaker 3: And you were taught that deadly force is only to be used as a last resort, correct?
[02:59:24] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[02:59:26] Speaker 3: And he's in evidence.
[02:59:30] Speaker 1: No, I can tenure it if you'd like me to. Before you show it to the jury, you might want to follow the rules of procedure. I'm Jack Jeremy, then. I'm sorry. Thank you, Mr. Schiff. I follow that. If I can see the exhibits that council wishes to attend in healthy health. That's it.
[02:59:49] Speaker 3: That's it.
[02:59:50] Speaker 1: Do you attend the market?
[02:59:52] Speaker 3: Yes, I was showing you, too. Do I attend the market?
[02:59:55] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[03:00:12] Speaker 3: I'm going to mark this as 414. That person's witness? Yes. Mr. McMichael, I'm going to show you what has been marked as 414. You recognize that? I do, yes, ma'am. All right, this time the state would tender to evidence states exhibit 414.
[03:00:27] Speaker 1: Objection, thank you. No objection. No objection. Two minutes.
[03:00:32] Speaker 3: All right. So this was one of the PowerPoint slides. You were shown as part of the deadly force triangle, and deadly force is only to be used as a blast resort, correct?
[03:00:44] Speaker 2: That's correct.
[03:00:47] Speaker 3: You were also trained never to point a firearm at someone unless you intended to use it. Is that correct?
[03:00:55] Speaker 2: Under certain situations, yes, and then under certain situations, it could be used as a deterrent.
[03:01:02] Speaker 3: All right. So what I'm going to do now is talk about what happened on the 23rd of February, okay, of 2020. Yes, ma'am. All right. So let's go ahead and start. At the moment your dad kind of came running into the house, he was yelling for you, correct?
[03:01:48] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[03:01:49] Speaker 3: All right. And he yelled that the guy from the other night was running down the road. Yes. And you understood that he was talking about the black man that you had seen go into the open, unsecured construction site 12 days beforehand on February 11th.
[03:02:04] Speaker 2: And he said the guy that had been breaking into the house just ran by. So yes, that was what I was thinking.
[03:02:11] Speaker 3: And your father ran into his bedroom to get his .357 Magnum revolver.
[03:02:16] Speaker 2: Yes, we're loose, yes, ma'am.
[03:02:20] Speaker 3: And I want to be real clear. He didn't say he'd seen the man breaking into the house.
[03:02:27] Speaker 2: No.
[03:02:30] Speaker 3: Just that he'd seen the man running down the street.
[03:02:32] Speaker 2: That has been breaking in the house, as we said, yes, ma'am.
[03:02:36] Speaker 3: And you hadn't seen the black man in the 12 days between February 11th and February 23rd, had you? I did not. And at this time you were working at Mets and Marine.
[03:02:49] Speaker 2: I was.
[03:02:50] Speaker 3: And your hours were really early in the morning to about 5 at night?
[03:02:54] Speaker 2: It depended on what was going on. It was usually 5 to 1 or 2 in the evening, but it could change so much.
[03:03:04] Speaker 3: All right. So I just want to be clear. 5 o'clock in the morning to 1 or 2 in the afternoon, or are you talking 5 p.m. to 1 or 2?
[03:03:10] Speaker 2: 5 a.m. to 1 p.m. sometimes.
[03:03:13] Speaker ?: Okay.
[03:03:16] Speaker 3: All right. So on February 23rd, 2020, when your dad came in and yelled for you, you didn't know where the black man was coming from?
[03:03:25] Speaker 2: I had an idea, because he said he's running down the road, the guy that's been breaking in. I've never seen him before. I kind of had an idea that maybe he's coming from 220, but I'm just going to go out and check out and see what's going on.
[03:03:42] Speaker 3: But your dad just said he's running down the road, correct?
[03:03:44] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:03:45] Speaker 3: And you didn't know where he was going when he was running down the road?
[03:03:49] Speaker 2: I did not.
[03:03:50] Speaker 3: All right. And you had no idea what he'd actually been doing that day?
[03:03:54] Speaker 2: Not at that time, no.
[03:03:55] Speaker 3: But what you did know at that point in time was that Mr. Arbery had been at the open, unsecured construction site on February 11th. Is that right?
[03:04:13] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:04:15] Speaker 3: You knew about two other times, is that correct?
[03:04:19] Speaker 2: I knew that he's been there several times, two other times, and that stuff has been stolen out of there. And then the way that he reacted to me on the 11th was the thought that was in my mind.
[03:04:37] Speaker 3: Now, you didn't suspect him of having stolen your handgun out of your car 54 days earlier, did you?
[03:04:42] Speaker 2: No, I have no idea who did that.
[03:04:48] Speaker 3: Did you tell Diego Perez that you do, who did it?
[03:04:51] Speaker 2: No, I didn't.
[03:04:52] Speaker 3: Did you indicate to Diego Perez you had a good idea who was a good suspect in the neighborhood who had done it?
[03:04:57] Speaker 2: To Diego? No, I did not.
[03:04:59] Speaker 3: Did Diego Perez actually show you the videos from his house to see if anyone was going up and down, cars or people?
[03:05:07] Speaker 2: On the 1st? Yes. So I walked around, I started noticing that everybody had these things, so I saw that Diego's house had cameras while I was waiting on the police to come to make the report. That's the first day I met Diego. And I asked him if there was any, if he had any footage from this morning because I had a pistol stolen. And I asked if I can have his thumb drive. And I got his thumb drive and looked through and I didn't see anybody. I saw a couple of trucks that were, I've never seen before that had me wonder a little bit, but I didn't see any body on there.
[03:05:47] Speaker 3: Okay, so you're saying that Diego Perez actually gave you a thumb drive with these videos on them?
[03:05:55] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:05:56] Speaker 3: Okay. Isn't it true that you stood there with Diego Perez and looked at the videos with him at the same time?
[03:06:03] Speaker 2: No. I took it home with me.
[03:06:06] Speaker ?: Okay.
[03:06:08] Speaker 3: So, while watching, you weren't with Diego Perez watching the videos, when you said to Diego Perez, I think I know who did this.
[03:06:17] Speaker 2: I never said that to Diego Perez.
[03:06:24] Speaker 3: All right, so let's go ahead and go back to February 23rd, 2020, okay? So, when you set out with your father, your goal was to go ahead and just talk to Mr. Arbery?
[03:06:42] Speaker 2: Yes, to find out, to verify if it was the same individual I saw in the lab.
[03:06:47] Speaker 3: So, basically, ID him.
[03:06:49] Speaker 2: I was running ID him and then, yes.
[03:06:51] Speaker 3: All right. And at that point in time, when your dad came running and he was all excited, you know, there goes the guy running down the street, you didn't call 911?
[03:07:00] Speaker 2: I did not.
[03:07:02] Speaker 3: All right.
[03:07:05] Speaker 2: Did you tell your dad to call 911? I asked him if he did. I was thinking that, I asked him, have you called 911? Because he comes running in. I thought that he was already on the phone with him or had contact with him because he was outside. And he said yes. So, I assumed that the police had been called at that point.
[03:07:25] Speaker ?: All right.
[03:07:26] Speaker 3: You made a statement to Detective Nohilly hours after this incident, correct?
[03:07:32] Speaker 2: I did.
[03:07:33] Speaker 3: Okay. You never told him that you thought your dad had already called 911?
[03:07:38] Speaker 2: I told him that I believe 911 was called. I don't know exactly what I said, but I believe I did tell him that I was under the impression that my father had called 911.
[03:07:52] Speaker 3: Do you remember, on about page 9 of your transcript, telling Detective Nohilly that Mr. Arbery's running, he won't stop? I said, that's him. Stop right there. Stop where you're at. And then you turned to your father and said, call the cops you know. There he is.
[03:08:09] Speaker 5: Your Honor, if we could show him the transcript.
[03:08:11] Speaker 1: Yeah, if I could have a transcript. Yeah. She's asking about page 9 of the transcript. I don't think he's been shown the transcript.
[03:08:19] Speaker 3: Well, let me ask you this. Do you recall telling Detective Nohilly that?
[03:08:23] Speaker 2: I'd like to see the transcript, see exactly what I said.
[03:08:30] Speaker 4: She asked him whether he recalled it, said no, so she's getting the transcript.
[03:08:34] Speaker 1: Yeah.
[03:08:37] Speaker 3: Oh, it's the very top. That's why I couldn't see it. Take a look at the very top. First couple lines.
[03:08:57] Speaker ?: All right.
[03:08:57] Speaker 3: All right.
[03:08:57] Speaker ?: All right.
[03:09:27] Speaker 3: So, at this point in time, it's fair to say that you're in the car on Burford with your dad and you're instructing him at this point in time to call the cops because there he is.
[03:09:44] Speaker 2: Like I said earlier on the first, I was all over the place in this statement. I said that to Officer Nohilly, but at the time, I was still under the influence of what happened. This was only two hours after the most traumatic experience of my life. I'm trying to give him as much information as I can. So, from reading these transcripts, I realized that I was scatterbrained everywhere. When I said, the whole paragraph, so pull up to him and say, hey, you know what's going on, he's running, he won't stop. I said, that's him, stop right there, stop right there, call the cops, you know, there he is, starts acting funny, takes off running. I'm all over the place. I'm trying to, I'm trying to explain what's going on, but yes, I said it, but I don't think, I don't think I was intending to say, there he is, hey, you call the cops. It was, it was the same timing of the situation, kind of mulled together.
[03:11:11] Speaker 3: So, let's go back to the house.
[03:11:13] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[03:11:14] Speaker 3: Your father runs in, grabs his .357 Magnum, and you automatically grab your shotgun.
[03:11:21] Speaker 2: That is the closest weapon I had, yes, ma'am.
[03:11:24] Speaker 3: All right. Now, with that particular shotgun that we have in evidence, you saw that, correct?
[03:11:29] Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
[03:11:29] Speaker 3: And you were here when Brian Leppard testified, correct?
[03:11:31] Speaker 2: I was, yes, ma'am.
[03:11:32] Speaker 3: And it was loaded with seven shotgun shells, correct?
[03:11:36] Speaker 2: Yes, I believe so, yes.
[03:11:38] Speaker 3: All right, so all you had to do was take the safety off and pull the trigger in order to kill someone, correct?
[03:11:43] Speaker 2: To shoot it was all I had to do was to, I kept the, all my shotguns, the action bar lock disengaged, the action down halfway, and off, on safety, more protective safety. So, yeah, it was loaded, if that's what you're asking.
[03:12:03] Speaker 3: No, I was asking, all you had to do to shoot and kill someone was take the safety off and pull the trigger.
[03:12:11] Speaker 2: No, take the safety off and then pull it, push the action bar lock up.
[03:12:15] Speaker 3: And you did both those things in order to kill Mr. Arbery?
[03:12:20] Speaker 2: When he was on top of me, I disengaged the safety, pulled the trigger, yes, ma'am.
[03:12:27] Speaker 3: So, now, when your dad comes running in, he's all excited, you didn't stop him and tell him to calm down, did you?
[03:12:35] Speaker 2: No.
[03:12:36] Speaker 3: No. So, this is, go ahead.
[03:12:39] Speaker 2: No, but I was trying to find out what was going on. I was trying to find out the situation. If I walked outside and I didn't see our neighbor that was aware of February 11th and knew that that the guy that we're suspecting has been in this house several times, ran by, was pointing down the road, then yes, I said, Dad, calm down. Just calm down. But the totality of the circumstance and everything that happened in the 11th hearing, knowing that there was stuff stolen out of that house, that he has been continually breaking into this house, and then he just ran into the neighborhood with the neighbor pointing down the road, that led me to believe there's probable cause that something has happened down there. Something has happened with this guy again. Let me make sure, let's see what happened. Let me make sure everybody's okay. It's identified.
[03:13:33] Speaker 3: All right. So you just said, based on everything, you think something had happened.
[03:13:38] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[03:13:39] Speaker 3: But you had no idea what had happened.
[03:13:40] Speaker 2: At that time, no, ma'am.
[03:13:42] Speaker 3: All right. And at this point in time, you tell this jury that your father had suffered a couple heart attacks, a stroke, and a hip replacement.
[03:13:56] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am. Okay.
[03:13:59] Speaker 3: And you grabbed your shotgun and walked outside with it, and that's when you saw Mr. Albenzi?
[03:14:05] Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.
[03:14:06] Speaker 3: So you'd already made the decision inside the house to go with your father to go track down Mr. Arbery?
[03:14:14] Speaker 2: I made a decision to find out why he was so excited, what was going on at the time. I walked outside to analyze the situation to see why my father, who's had two heart attacks, a stroke, and a complete hip replacement, why he's so excited. What caused him to be in this state of mind? What happened? What has happened? It's not something that happens every day, so yeah, I was alarmed. I'm going to go out there and see what happened, investigate what's going on. You took your shotgun with you out there. I did.
[03:14:48] Speaker 3: And you didn't tell your dad to go back in the house.
[03:14:50] Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't see him at that point. He ran off into the backers.
[03:14:55] Speaker 3: So when you got out there and you saw Mr. Albenzi, you didn't say, Dad, go back in the house. We're not going to do this. We're going to call 911.
[03:15:03] Speaker 2: I told him, when he jumped in the truck, when I asked him to call 911, I wanted to make sure that everything was okay to see what was happening, to verify, to see if it's the same guy. If it was going in the road and if it was not the same one, then yes, I would, all right, this is not the same guy. This is a misidentification. This isn't the guy that the police have been looking for, been breaking in this house. This stuff has been stolen. It was continuing on. But as we went down and identified that, yes, this is him, let's try to hold him for the police, talk to him.
[03:15:36] Speaker 3: Didn't you tell this jury that you assumed your father was correct and that's why you got your shotgun? Yes. All right. And, defendants exhibit 14.
[03:15:53] Speaker 1: It was on the table. Is it going to be a collective?
[03:15:56] Speaker 5: Let me look.
[03:15:57] Speaker ?: Here's the guy. About 60. Yeah, yeah. Sorry.
[03:16:11] Speaker 3: Your son was inside the house, correct?
[03:16:29] Speaker 2: He was.
[03:16:30] Speaker 3: And, this car seat was in the car?
[03:16:33] Speaker 2: Yes.
[03:16:36] Speaker 3: When you get in the car and Greg McMichael goes to get in the car, this doesn't stop the two of you. The car seat being there and going, well, you know, Dad, we really can't do this. The car seat's there. Let's just call the police.
[03:16:48] Speaker 2: It did not. He kept saying, you go down there, go down there. Like I said, seeing the neighbor down there, seeing how he acted on the 11th, I was like he was a branch of a weapon, I don't know what's happened. I don't know if somebody got hurt. I don't know what happened. I'm just going to go down and investigate. It was, it was.
[03:17:08] Speaker 3: So, you're going to go down and investigate. Even though you testify, you're not going to chase or investigate someone who is armed,
[03:17:15] Speaker 2: correct? I don't know if he was armed or not. I don't know if he was armed or not. Just go ahead and look. I'm not going to just look at the totality of the circumstance. It's not stopping you to the point and say, you know, are you armed or if he had a gun or anything, I would have backed off. I just wanted to go and see what's going on. That's, that's, that was all it was at that point.
[03:17:37] Speaker 3: You didn't tell your dad, this is a really, really bad idea that could go really wrong for us and we should just stay here and call 911. You didn't say that, did you?
[03:17:45] Speaker 2: I didn't.
[03:17:51] Speaker 3: Now, when you got inside the truck, you had your phone with you. Yeah, yes, I had my phone. And you didn't call 911 at that point. I did not. And you didn't give it to your dad to call 911 at that point.
[03:18:05] Speaker 2: No, because I thought that he has called 911 and he had his phone at the time.
[03:18:14] Speaker 3: Would this be a good stopping point, Judge?
[03:18:19] Speaker 4: Yeah, we can stop here.
[03:18:22] Speaker 3: I'm just looking for a natural break.
[03:18:24] Speaker 4: Okay, if it's a natural break in the testimony, if you're going to move to another area then. All right. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, why don't we go ahead and break for the day then? Again, during the recess, hold on a sec. Oh, no, don't get away yet. All right. Again, during the recess, please do not discuss this case amongst yourselves or with anybody else. Don't go looking for any information about the case. Don't go picking up any newspapers or social media. If anybody is around or approaches you about the case, please notify the court. Don't let anybody discuss the case in your presence of hearing. And if any of that happens, please let us know first thing in the morning so that we can go ahead and get that addressed. So with those instructions and all the other instructions I've given you, have a good evening. We'll see you back here at 9 o'clock for the continuation of evidence. Thank you.
[03:19:10] Speaker 6: So rise to the jury.
[03:19:32] Speaker 4: Sir, you can go ahead and step down. We'll be in recess then until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you, everybody.
[03:20:23] Speaker 5: Thank you. Thank you.
[03:20:54] Speaker ?: Thank you.