Sword Killer Reveals Murder Plot — Full Testimony

[00:00:00] Speaker ?: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth, a whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and a political virtue? Yes. Please have a seat. [00:00:11] Speaker 1: Everything we do has to be recorded, so I'm going to ask you to move a little bit closer to that microphone. You don't need to lean into it, it just needs to be in front of you to catch your voice. If you'd begin by stating your name for the jury and spelling your last name for us, please. [00:00:24] Kiara McCulley: I'm Kiara McCulley, M-C-C-U-L-L-E-Y. [00:00:28] Speaker 1: Ms. Murphy, you may proceed. [00:00:30] Kiara McCulley: Thank you. [00:00:30] Speaker 3: Good morning, ma'am. How old are you? I'm 23. Okay, and can you just get a little closer to the mic? Okay, is that better? [00:00:38] Speaker ?: Yes, thank you. I'll go. [00:00:39] Speaker 3: When is your birthday? [00:00:40] Kiara McCulley: December 4th, 2002. [00:00:43] Speaker 3: How far did you get in high school? [00:00:45] Kiara McCulley: 11th grade. [00:00:48] Speaker 3: What's your mom's name? [00:00:49] Kiara McCulley: Lani. [00:00:52] Speaker 3: Let me go to October of 2022. Where were you living on October 28th, 29th of 2022? [00:01:00] Kiara McCulley: The garage of my mom's house, which is 5941 Jaguar Drive. [00:01:04] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:07] Speaker 3: Did anyone else live in that garage with you? [00:01:10] Kiara McCulley: It was me and Isaac. [00:01:12] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:12] Speaker 3: Were there any parks or features, public spaces near that house at 5941 Jaguar Drive? [00:01:24] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:01:25] Speaker 3: Can you tell us about that? [00:01:26] Kiara McCulley: There were a few schools, and then there's a park just about a block away. [00:01:32] Speaker 3: Do you know if that park had a name or the cross streets near it? [00:01:36] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember. [00:01:43] Speaker 3: I want to talk about someone named Grace Jennings, okay? Do you or did you know somebody named Grace Jennings? [00:01:50] Kiara McCulley: I did. [00:01:51] Speaker 3: How old were you when you met Grace? [00:01:54] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember the exact age. I just know I was in second grade when I met her. [00:01:58] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:01:59] Speaker 3: How did you meet her? [00:02:01] Kiara McCulley: I was best friends with her little sister. [00:02:06] Speaker 3: Going forward into your early teen years, what was your relationship with Grace? [00:02:11] Kiara McCulley: We were friends for a while, and then we started dating. [00:02:14] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:14] Speaker 3: How long did you date? [00:02:16] Kiara McCulley: About eight months, if I remember correctly. Okay. [00:02:20] Speaker 3: And what do you mean when you say that you guys dated? [00:02:23] Kiara McCulley: Like, we were in a semi-serious relationship. Okay. And what does that mean to you? That she was pretty much number one above me in my life. She meant everything to me at the time. [00:02:44] Speaker 3: What would you do, you and Grace, during that time frame? [00:02:47] Kiara McCulley: We would go out, we would have fun, just be kids. [00:02:53] Speaker 3: Did you eventually break up? Yes. [00:02:56] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:02:59] Speaker 3: Without saying anything anyone said or did, how did that breakup impact you emotionally? [00:03:05] Kiara McCulley: It was really difficult for me. [00:03:07] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:03:08] Kiara McCulley: I'm the one who ended it, but I never really let go. [00:03:15] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:03:17] Speaker 3: After you and Grace broke up, did you eventually start dating somebody named Isaac Apodaca? [00:03:27] Kiara McCulley: I did. [00:03:28] Speaker 3: How did you meet Isaac Apodaca? [00:03:30] Kiara McCulley: I had talked to Grace, and we were just talking about meeting up at the Santa Fe Place Mall, so that I could see if she was bringing back into my life. And when I was there, Isaac was there with her. [00:03:43] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:03:43] Kiara McCulley: And what happened? We started talking and hanging out. We were just doing what normal kids do, you know? And then later in the night, he walked me home, and the next day we were supposed to meet up, all three of us, and Grace didn't show up. So it turned into Isaac and I's first date. [00:04:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:04:04] Speaker 3: And do you remember the year that that happened? 2019. How long did you and Isaac Apodaca date? [00:04:12] Kiara McCulley: Three and a half years. [00:04:14] Speaker 3: Is Isaac Apodaca present in the courtroom today? [00:04:17] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:04:18] Speaker 3: Can you please point to him and tell me what he's wearing? [00:04:21] Kiara McCulley: He's over here wearing a quite nice suit and a blue tie. [00:04:28] Speaker 3: Your Honor, can the record reflect that this witness identified Isaac Apodaca? [00:04:31] Speaker 1: She has. [00:04:32] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:04:35] Speaker 3: When you and Isaac were together, did you have pet names or nicknames for each other? [00:04:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:04:40] Speaker 3: Okay. What was the nickname that Isaac would use for you? [00:04:43] Kiara McCulley: Puggle. [00:04:44] Speaker 3: Puggle? [00:04:45] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. That means baby platypus. Okay. [00:04:47] Speaker 3: And what was your nickname for Isaac? [00:04:50] Kiara McCulley: Otter. [00:04:56] Speaker 3: And you stated that you lived together with Isaac? [00:04:59] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:05:00] Speaker 3: Where did you first live together with Isaac? [00:05:02] Kiara McCulley: My mom's house. [00:05:03] Speaker 3: And when you say the house, what do you mean? [00:05:06] Kiara McCulley: It's the 5941 Jaguar Drive. That's the house that we were living in. [00:05:11] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:12] Kiara McCulley: We were in the bigger room at the front of the house. [00:05:16] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:16] Speaker 3: In the main house? Yes. All right. And how long did you live in the main house? The main house together, you and Isaac? [00:05:21] Kiara McCulley: It was on and off between there and other locations for most of our time together. I can't remember exactly how long. Okay. It was most of it. [00:05:32] Speaker 3: Did you ever live in any other locations on the property at 5941 Jaguar? [00:05:37] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:05:37] Speaker 3: Okay. And what was that other location? The garage. [00:05:39] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:40] Speaker 3: Why did you move to the garage? [00:05:43] Kiara McCulley: Isaac was telling me that my mom wasn't really that great for me, so I needed to get some space. [00:05:47] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:05:48] Speaker 3: Can you kind of describe the general layout of the garage? [00:05:53] Kiara McCulley: We moved things around a few times, but when you first go in to the right of you, there's the TV and a table, and the bed is right in front of you. [00:06:05] Speaker 3: What size was the bed, if you remember? [00:06:07] Kiara McCulley: It was a queen. [00:06:08] Speaker 3: A queen? [00:06:09] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:06:12] Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about something that happened on April 4th of 2022. Without saying anything else, do you know what I'm referring to when I say that day? [00:06:22] Kiara McCulley: Yes. I know what you're talking about. [00:06:23] Speaker 3: Okay. Briefly, what happened on April 4th of 2022? [00:06:32] Kiara McCulley: I was having a hard time and debating things, and I told Isaac about what I was thinking about, and he had a complete breakdown and attacked me. [00:06:45] Speaker 3: What do you mean he attacked you? [00:06:47] Kiara McCulley: He started beating me up. Did you have any injuries? Yes. He broke my thumb and left a lot of bruises. [00:06:54] Speaker 3: And when you say you were debating things, what were you debating? [00:06:57] Kiara McCulley: Our relationship. [00:07:00] Speaker 3: Did you go anywhere for medical care after that happened? [00:07:04] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:07:04] Speaker 3: Where'd you go? [00:07:05] Kiara McCulley: I went to, oh, which hospital was it? It was, not St. Vincent's, what was the other one called? Sorry, it's been so long since I've been there. [00:07:16] Speaker 3: It's okay. You went to the hospital? Yeah, I went to the hospital. [00:07:18] Speaker ?: All right. [00:07:20] Speaker 3: And did you speak to the police at all about that incident? I did. [00:07:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:07:26] Speaker 3: Did you pursue charges for it? I did not. All right. Why? Why? [00:07:31] Kiara McCulley: I didn't want to make his life harder, and I wanted him happy so he would come back. [00:07:36] Speaker 3: What made you... Did Isaac say anything specific about the charges or about not cooperating with the charges? [00:07:51] Kiara McCulley: I don't really remember. [00:07:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:07:55] Speaker 3: After that incident, did you get back with Isaac? I did. Do you remember how long from when that happened until you guys were back together? It was about three weeks. [00:08:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:04] Speaker 3: How, if at all, did your relationship change after that incident in April of 2022? [00:08:10] Kiara McCulley: For maybe a month, it was like a honeymoon stage, but then it went straight back to the abuse that I was getting. [00:08:16] Speaker 3: I want to talk about something called sex work, okay? Do you know what that means? Yes. All right. Is there another word for sex work? [00:08:31] Kiara McCulley: There are a lot of different terms. [00:08:34] Speaker 3: But, yeah. Is sex... Is me referring to it as sex work a term or phrase that you're comfortable with me using to refer to what we're going to talk about? [00:08:41] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:42] Speaker 3: Have you ever engaged in sex work? Yes. [00:08:45] Speaker ?: All right. [00:08:46] Speaker 3: And what does that mean to you? [00:08:49] Kiara McCulley: I would have sex with different people and get money for that. [00:08:52] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:08:54] Kiara McCulley: How did that come about that you started doing that? In 2020, Isaac and I were living in an apartment with his friend, and no one was willing to get a job or pay for anything, and he suggested that I start basically prostituting myself. And I told him I needed to think about it, and then he just said, I already have a couple clients for you. Just go out and do it. [00:09:16] Speaker 3: And when you say he, who do you mean? [00:09:18] Kiara McCulley: Isaac. [00:09:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:09:21] Speaker 3: How was payment rendered for the sex work? Who got paid and how? [00:09:26] Kiara McCulley: I would be handed the money at first from the client, and then I would take it to Isaac, and he would hold on to it. [00:09:32] Speaker 3: Why give Isaac the money? [00:09:34] Kiara McCulley: I'm not even sure why I gave it to him. [00:09:36] Speaker 3: Do you know what Isaac would do with the money from sex work? [00:09:39] Kiara McCulley: From getting model kits to other things that I'm not sure about. He would just spend it on whatever he wanted. [00:09:48] Speaker 3: I want to talk about things Isaac would tell you, okay? And can you explain to me what, if anything, you would believe in general that Isaac would tell you that maybe you feel differently about now? [00:10:10] Kiara McCulley: Oh, there's so many things. He had me convinced that he was an angel. He had me convinced of a lot of different things, even an organization that doesn't exist. And I understand why I fell into it now that I've looked at it, but I'm very disappointed in myself still. [00:10:34] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:35] Speaker 3: What do you mean you believed he was an angel? He had convinced me he was the archangel Gabriel. [00:10:40] Kiara McCulley: I, when I first met him, he told me that he was the angel, but at first I didn't believe him. And then he started telling me things that no one knew about me. And maybe a part of me wanted it to be real. But then I, when I started really believing him, I just kept asking, tell me more, tell me more. And he kept feeding it. [00:11:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:11:10] Speaker 3: What sorts of things would he tell you as it relates to him being the archangel Gabriel? [00:11:15] Kiara McCulley: He, he told me my darkest secret. [00:11:22] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:11:25] Kiara McCulley: It's just one thing I never told anyone, not even my mom. [00:11:28] Speaker 3: And you believed that he knew that because he was an angel? [00:11:31] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:11:34] Speaker 3: All right. You said that he told you he was part of an organization and you believed that? [00:11:38] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:11:39] Speaker 3: All right. Do you remember what that organization was called? [00:11:41] Kiara McCulley: He called it Ghost. [00:11:43] Speaker 3: Ghost? [00:11:44] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:11:47] Speaker 3: Do you recall when you started hearing about, from Isaac, an organization called Ghost? [00:11:54] Kiara McCulley: It was maybe two, three months into the relationship. And he kept telling me that I could be a part of it and be a hero, per se. Just one thing I wanted to do was be a hero to somebody. [00:12:13] Speaker 3: What was Ghost, as Isaac described it to you? [00:12:16] Kiara McCulley: A vigilante group that took out people that, by took out, I mean kill. People who are like pedophiles, rapists, even drug addicts. Just people that were considered bad. [00:12:34] Speaker 3: Did Isaac tell you how he would communicate with other members of this organization? [00:12:39] Kiara McCulley: He never told me how he would communicate with them. [00:12:41] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:12:43] Speaker 3: What did you believe Isaac's role in this organization called Ghost was? [00:12:47] Kiara McCulley: He told me he was the one who started it. [00:12:56] Speaker 3: And you stated that the purpose was to kill people. Did Isaac make any representations to you about what he had done in the course of his work for Ghost? [00:13:08] Kiara McCulley: He had referenced that he had killed 40 people already, which is a high number. [00:13:13] Speaker ?: Okay. Thank you. [00:13:19] Speaker 3: I want to talk about any sort of markings or ranking marks related to ghosts. Do you know what I'm referring to when I'm? Yes. Okay. What am I referring to when I say markings related to ghosts? [00:13:35] Kiara McCulley: So he had given me a tattoo on my hand that it was supposed to say this is, that I'm a part of it. I ended up covering it up. [00:13:42] Speaker 3: Okay. But I just, yeah. In October of 2022, did you have a marking on your body related to ghosts? Yes. [00:13:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:13:53] Speaker 3: And who gave that to you? [00:13:54] Kiara McCulley: Isaac. [00:13:55] Speaker ?: All right. [00:13:57] Speaker 3: Why, Kiara, Ms. Macaulay, why did you believe these things about ghosts that Isaac would tell you? [00:14:11] Kiara McCulley: I, I'm not sure why at the time I've been doing a lot of self-reflection. So really I'm, I just wanted somewhere to belong. [00:14:25] Speaker 3: Did Isaac ever show you anything, um, related to ghosts? And by that I mean messages with other individuals? Or did he provide any physical proof to you that he was part of this organization or that the organization even existed? The closest thing was when he got on the dark lip. But that's it. And what do you mean by that? [00:14:52] Kiara McCulley: He got onto some, I'm not sure how, but there was this part of the internet where he was finding like very inappropriate videos that I do not ever want to see again. [00:15:04] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:15:06] Speaker 3: Um, I want to talk about, about grace again. Um, in October of 2022, did you believe, did you have any beliefs related to grace and something that may have happened to you? [00:15:19] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:15:19] Speaker 3: All right. In October of 2022, what did you believe grace had, had done or helped do to you? [00:15:27] Kiara McCulley: I believed she was a part of a rape. That I'm not even certain now is real. [00:15:37] Speaker 3: How did that idea that grace had been part of a rape come about? Where did that originate? [00:15:44] Kiara McCulley: Isaac started telling me about a video that he found that looked like me. [00:15:49] Speaker 3: And what did he say was happening in the video? [00:15:51] Kiara McCulley: He said that there was, he said that there was a gang rape in that video and it looked like a girl like me, but he got it taken down and he never showed it to me, but I believed him. [00:16:01] Speaker 3: Well, what role would grace have had in that video? [00:16:04] Kiara McCulley: Uh, he said that he, that he, that he saw her getting money out of the deal. [00:16:17] Speaker 3: When you, when did you start believing that grace had essentially facilitated a gang rape for you? How, how far into your relationship with Isaac? [00:16:23] Kiara McCulley: That was about six months. [00:16:28] Speaker 3: When you started to believe that grace had facilitated this rape, how did that make you feel? [00:16:35] Kiara McCulley: It made me angry. It made me sad, depressed. All these different emotions, very confusing emotions, all hitting me like at a point where I'm like, someone I love could have done something that bad. [00:16:51] Speaker 3: What, what specific feelings did you have about it as, as towards grace at that point? [00:16:57] Kiara McCulley: I was extremely angry with her and I wanted her to feel the pain I felt. [00:17:08] Speaker 3: I want to talk very briefly about, um, something on Halloween in 2021. So a year prior to, um, to everything that happened with grace. Do you know what I'm referring to when I say Halloween of 2021? I believe so. [00:17:21] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:17:22] Speaker 3: Um, briefly and generally what happened on Halloween in 2021? [00:17:27] Kiara McCulley: Um, so I thrown a party and no one showed up. So I got really upset and I called, uh, one of my clients and Isaac came along with and then someone put something in my drink and I was raped that night. Um, did you, um, did you get medical care for that assault? Yes, there was a rape kit done. [00:17:48] Speaker 3: Um, after, you said it was with the client? Yeah. Okay. [00:17:55] Kiara McCulley: He was a client turned to friend almost. [00:17:57] Speaker 3: Um, I thought, um, did you or Isaac get paid for that that night? I'm not certain. After that, um, did you, did you do any more sex work? I did. Whose idea was it for you to continue doing sex work? [00:18:12] Kiara McCulley: It was Isaac's. [00:18:13] Speaker 3: And what do you mean by that? [00:18:15] Kiara McCulley: I kept telling him I didn't want to do it anymore, but he kept setting people up so that I could just keep getting paid. It should be the only thing he wanted. [00:18:29] Speaker 3: Do you recall how, um, for lack of a better word, you, you would advertise for the sex work? [00:18:37] Kiara McCulley: Yes, um, there was an ad on Skip the Games, which Isaac put up for me. [00:18:43] Speaker 3: And what is Skip the Games? [00:18:45] Kiara McCulley: It's a website for escorts and prostitutes, I think. Okay. And was never personally on the site. [00:18:53] Speaker 3: Other than creating the, the account or the, or the profile, uh, did Isaac do anything else as it related to you and images being on the site? [00:19:04] Kiara McCulley: Um, there were a few, there were some photos that he took. For specific clients. [00:19:13] Speaker 3: All right. In October of 2022, Kiara, um, prior to, to the incident, um, at that point, what were your feelings towards Grace? How strong were they? [00:19:30] Kiara McCulley: They were pretty strong. I just wanted her out of my life, but part of me still wanted her around. So I kept messaging her and then I'm like, wait, what the hell am I doing? Cause I felt almost hatred. It's on the thin, thin line. [00:19:49] Speaker 3: Who, if anyone did you talk to about this hatred for Grace? [00:19:53] Kiara McCulley: Uh. [00:19:53] Speaker 3: Prior, prior to October 28th. Yeah. [00:19:55] Kiara McCulley: Well, Isaac, I've talked to him about it a lot. And then I know I talked to my friend Jeffrey and Bright Brady. And I also talked to my friend Kiana at the time. I know I talked to a lot of people about it, but I didn't realize how serious it was. [00:20:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:20:10] Speaker 3: Was there a part of you that wanted Grace dead? A part of me. All right. Let's talk about the night before everything happened. Okay. So we're going to talk about October 28th of 2022. Do you remember anything about that day? What do you remember? [00:20:30] Kiara McCulley: So that day, well, it was at night when everything started getting intense for me. It was, Isaac had straight up asked me, do you want to kill Grace? And I said, yes, not realizing what he was about to do was bring her to the house. So I went to the park, told them to meet me there and we'd just get it over with. By it, I mean the murder. I'd get it over with so he would stop being so pushy. And then he changed the plan completely. [00:21:08] Speaker 3: Let's talk about this first part. We'll go on in a minute. Where were you when Isaac said, do you want to kill Grace? I was in my room. And what do you mean by your room? The garage. The garage. And after he asked, do you want to kill Grace? What did, what did you say? [00:21:28] Kiara McCulley: I said, duh. All I said was, duh. And what happened next? He told me that he's going to bring her over. I said, no, that's not a good idea. You know how I feel about this. And then he started saying, well, you could rank up and ghost and all kinds of stuff. [00:21:49] Speaker 3: So you told him you did not want Grace to come over after all? [00:21:59] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:22:00] Speaker 3: That's what I told him. And then you said you went to the park to get it over with? [00:22:04] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker 3: What were you wearing when you went to the park? [00:22:06] Kiara McCulley: I was wearing LARP clothing, which was like armor and a cloak. Were you carrying anything with you? I had my sword with me and a few knives. Did you have any electronics with you? My phone. [00:22:24] Speaker 3: And what was your plan once you got to the park in terms of if Grace had come to the park? [00:22:29] Kiara McCulley: If she had actually gone to the park, I would have just attacked her was my plan. And then, well, first we were going to try and take her to the tunnel system, but try and convince her. [00:22:44] Speaker 3: Oh, I hate thinking about it. Let me stop you there. What do you mean that you were going to take her to a tunnel system? [00:22:50] Kiara McCulley: There's just a bunch of tunnels around my house. What do you mean? They're like drain tunnels. [00:22:57] Speaker 3: Like storm drains? [00:22:58] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. Okay. [00:23:00] Speaker 3: And you said that, or did you actually make it to the park? [00:23:05] Kiara McCulley: I made it to the park. They did not. [00:23:07] Speaker 3: You stated that Isaac changed the plan. What changed? [00:23:11] Kiara McCulley: He texted me saying, let's just come back to the house. We'll figure it out from there. [00:23:16] Speaker 3: Did you go back to the house? I did. And when you walked, did you walk into the garage? Yes. When you walked into the garage, what did you see? [00:23:24] Kiara McCulley: I saw Grace sitting on my bed. [00:23:26] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:23:26] Speaker 3: How'd that make you feel? [00:23:28] Kiara McCulley: A lot of anger all at once. And Isaac was just doing his thing. What do you mean by that? He was sitting there acting like it was nothing. [00:23:40] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:23:41] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:23:44] Kiara McCulley: They started smoking weed and I was drinking a little bit. And throughout the night it was just, my anger kept growing. [00:23:54] Speaker 3: At some point in this early part of the night, not the next day, did Isaac leave? Yes. Okay. And how was it when it was just you and Grace in the garage? [00:24:05] Kiara McCulley: At that point, I started feeling really bad for her because she had just gone through a breakup herself. That's why she needed a place to stay that night. And I did try to set my feelings aside and just be somewhat supportive. It was really hard, but I tried. [00:24:24] Speaker 3: Did Isaac come back? He did. [00:24:26] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:24:27] Speaker 3: After Isaac came back, how did the rest of the evening go in terms of how everyone interacted? [00:24:34] Kiara McCulley: Well, Grace started trying to sleep. I don't know if she actually ended up sleeping or not, but she was acting like she was. Isaac was at the foot of the bed and I was in Isaac's usual spot, which is on the left side of the bed. [00:24:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:24:47] Kiara McCulley: When you say Isaac was at the foot of the bed, what do you mean? I mean, he was, so Grace was in my spot on the right side of the bed. I was on the left, just laying down, and Isaac was laying at the foot of the bed where, horizontally in perspective. [00:25:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:25:09] Speaker 3: And when you say the right versus the left side of the bed, which side of the bed would be the side that had the refrigerator next to it? Do you recall? [00:25:16] Kiara McCulley: That would be the left side. [00:25:17] Speaker 3: The left side. And is that the side you were laying on? [00:25:19] Kiara McCulley: Yes. Okay. [00:25:20] Speaker 3: And so the side closer to the large garage door would be the right side? [00:25:24] Kiara McCulley: Yes. Okay. [00:25:25] Speaker 3: And who was laying there? [00:25:26] Kiara McCulley: Grace. [00:25:29] Speaker 3: How did it feel having Grace in your spot? [00:25:32] Kiara McCulley: I did not like it. Very much did not like that. [00:25:36] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:25:38] Speaker 3: So while Grace was either sleeping or maybe not sleeping, and you were all three in the bed, what were you and Isaac doing as the night went on? [00:25:47] Kiara McCulley: We were texting and trying to figure out what to do. And he kept handing me knives and stuff, too, and I just couldn't pull myself to actually do it at that time. [00:26:02] Speaker 3: Kiara, were you dragging a dagger or a knife across Isaac's face at any point? No. Were you poking Isaac in the back with a knife or a dagger at any point? No. Kara, what, if anything, were you doing with a dagger or a knife as it relates to Isaac's back that night? [00:26:43] Kiara McCulley: Nothing. I was kicking him, but that's it. [00:26:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:26:51] Speaker 3: And when you were communicating with Isaac, while you guys were both in the bed, I think you just said texting, what device or devices were you using? [00:27:00] Kiara McCulley: I was using my phone. [00:27:01] Speaker 3: Did you use any other device or devices that evening? [00:27:04] Kiara McCulley: Just the TV. [00:27:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:27:07] Speaker 3: For purposes of communication, what, if any, devices did you use? [00:27:11] Kiara McCulley: Just my phone. [00:27:13] Speaker 3: You stated that Isaac handed you some, a dagger or knives? Is that what you stated? Yes. Do you recall kind of where in the evening that started to happen? [00:27:30] Kiara McCulley: That was after Grace had seemed to have fallen asleep. But I do remember holding the dagger above her and he put his hand on the, on the pommel, the back of the, of the knife and tried to push it. But I jerked back. But I jerked back. Why? I just, it didn't feel like it was right. [00:28:01] Speaker 3: We've seen the messages between you and Isaac. Do you recall messaging back and forth? [00:28:06] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:28:06] Speaker 3: Okay. Did you use Isaac's phone at any, what, if any, action did you take using Isaac's phone throughout the course of the evening? [00:28:16] Kiara McCulley: I didn't use his phone at all. [00:28:18] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:28:19] Speaker 3: What, if any, action did you take using a cell phone that was on the refrigerator next to the bed? [00:28:25] Kiara McCulley: I didn't use that either. I honestly forgot that was there. [00:28:30] Speaker 3: Do you recall what your Facebook username or handle was? [00:28:35] Kiara McCulley: Froggy with three G's and an IE and McCullough. [00:28:39] Speaker 3: Do you recall what Isaac's Facebook username was? [00:28:41] Kiara McCulley: I believe it was Null Void. [00:28:45] Speaker 3: There's a portion of the night where you send probably about a hundred times like a little like dog or corgi or sticker cartoon. Do you recall doing that? [00:28:53] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. I was trying to annoy him. Okay. Get his attention. [00:29:00] Speaker 3: What, if any, conversation do you recall having about cleaning up a mess? [00:29:07] Kiara McCulley: I remember some of it. Okay. [00:29:09] Speaker 3: What mess would you be planning to clean up? [00:29:13] Kiara McCulley: Grace's death. [00:29:22] Speaker 3: Did your sword have a name? Yes. What was it? [00:29:25] Kiara McCulley: Zero. [00:29:27] Speaker 3: Can you spell that? [00:29:28] Kiara McCulley: How did I spell it? I don't think I remember how I spelled it. Okay. [00:29:32] Speaker 3: But it was Zira? Yeah. So you said that at one point you had the dagger up and Isaac was pushing on it behind your hand? [00:29:46] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:29:47] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:29:47] Speaker 3: Why not just kill her then? [00:29:49] Kiara McCulley: I couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to do it at that point. [00:29:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:29:55] Speaker 3: What do you recall about what Isaac was telling you throughout the night? [00:29:59] Kiara McCulley: Could I get some water? Yes. [00:30:07] Speaker ?: All right. [00:30:09] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. [00:30:12] Kiara McCulley: He was telling me a lot of, like, one that I remember him telling me is dull cuts like butter. That is something I remember him telling me because the dagger wasn't very sharp. Thank you. [00:30:36] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [00:30:45] Kiara McCulley: I appreciate it. I'll wait. [00:30:50] Speaker 3: What if any messages do you recall as it relates to ghosts and the, and murdering grace from that evening? [00:31:11] Kiara McCulley: He mentioned some place called The Barn. He said, well, if you don't do it now, we'll do it there. And I didn't know, I don't know what exactly he was talking about. [00:31:24] Speaker 3: Had you ever been to The Barn with him? No. Did you have a butterfly knife with you that night? [00:31:37] Kiara McCulley: Not that night, no. [00:31:38] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:31:39] Kiara McCulley: I had one at one point, but I lost it. [00:31:43] Speaker 3: When did you lose it? [00:31:46] Kiara McCulley: About a week prior. [00:31:51] Speaker 3: Let's talk about the sword for a moment, okay? What do you recall about the sword? [00:31:59] Kiara McCulley: It was extremely sharp. And it was a beautiful sword. If you look at it in the, in the view of art, that's how I like to view it. Sorry, that. [00:32:15] Speaker 3: During the night, as you and Isaac are messaging, where was the sword? [00:32:21] Kiara McCulley: It was on the floor next to the, next to the door, just to the right of the door. [00:32:26] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:32:27] Speaker 3: So I guess I should ask you this. When you, when you came in from being at the park, you stated that you had some armor and the sword with you, right? Yes. Okay. So what did you do with the sword when you walked into the garage after being at the park? [00:32:40] Kiara McCulley: I took it off my belt and set it down. I set it right next to me, which was right to the left of the door. Okay. Right next to a, a bunch of cubbies. [00:32:52] Speaker 3: Okay. And what did you do with your armor? [00:32:55] Kiara McCulley: I just took it off and set it there. [00:32:58] Speaker 3: Do you recall what you were wearing, other than the armor? [00:33:01] Kiara McCulley: Yeah, it was a blue sweater and pleather pants. [00:33:05] Speaker 3: Pleather, like fake leather? Yes. [00:33:10] Speaker ?: All right. [00:33:11] Speaker 3: So throughout the night, as you and Isaac are messaging, did the sword stay in that same spot where you had put it down when you'd come in from the park? Yes. [00:33:19] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:33:20] Speaker 3: Where was the dagger throughout the night? [00:33:24] Kiara McCulley: Multiple different places. At one point he was holding onto it. At one point it was next to me on the floor. And then there were a couple points where it was on our hands and we're trying to figure out what to do. [00:33:39] Speaker 3: How much sleep did you get that night? None. Why? [00:33:45] Kiara McCulley: When I, at the time when I fell asleep angry, Isaac always told me that I was grumpy, he didn't like how I would act, so I wouldn't sleep when I was angry. And I was awake for a very long time. [00:33:59] Speaker 3: I want to go now to the mid-morning hours, okay? Did you and Isaac make a plan referred to as Operation Fake Kickout? [00:34:12] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [00:34:12] Speaker 3: Okay, can you tell us about that? [00:34:15] Kiara McCulley: I was pretending to kick Isaac out so I could get Grace to leave because I was trying to back out. [00:34:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:34:21] Kiara McCulley: Like. [00:34:26] Speaker 3: And do you recall the final messages Isaac sent to you before everything happened? [00:34:35] Kiara McCulley: Not completely, but I do remember him saying that she had admitted to doing something to him. [00:34:42] Speaker 3: What did you take him saying she admitted to doing something? What did you think that was referring to? [00:34:47] Kiara McCulley: That was referring to the rape. That's what I was, thought it was meaning. [00:34:54] Speaker 3: How did that make you feel to hear Isaac, or to see Isaac's message that Grace had admitted it to him? [00:35:02] Kiara McCulley: I got, I was hurt, I was angry, I had so many mixed emotions. It's like, to the point I actually cried a little bit. [00:35:14] Speaker 3: Once Isaac sent you that message, or those final messages, what happened next? [00:35:21] Kiara McCulley: I, they, we were getting up and like, trying to just act like everything was normal for a moment. [00:35:32] Speaker 3: Where was Grace at this point? [00:35:33] Kiara McCulley: She was sitting next to Isaac at the foot of the bed. Okay. [00:35:36] Speaker 3: Where were you? [00:35:37] Kiara McCulley: I was standing in front of them. [00:35:39] Speaker 3: When you say standing in front of them, what would have been, say, to your back? [00:35:42] Kiara McCulley: The door, the front door. [00:35:44] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:35:47] Kiara McCulley: Isaac handed me the sword. [00:35:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:35:50] Speaker 3: What did you take that to mean? [00:35:52] Kiara McCulley: I mean, it's time to do it. And I had no choice. [00:35:57] Speaker 3: At that point, how were you feeling emotionally? [00:36:00] Kiara McCulley: Overwhelmed. [00:36:02] Speaker 3: What happened next? [00:36:05] Kiara McCulley: He told me, he told me he would hurt my mom if I didn't do it. Because I was standing there like, what the f*** are you trying to make me do? Then what happened? Then Grace started laughing at me, like it was some big joke. How'd that make you feel? It brought all of my anger out in one spot. What happened next? I just, I closed my eyes and swung the sword. When you made that first swing, where was Isaac? He was right next to her, on her, her right. [00:36:42] Speaker 3: When you swung the first time, what did Isaac do? [00:36:47] Kiara McCulley: And he got up and he started saying, come on, finish it, finish it, finish it. And then he ended up leaving for a little bit. And I, I, I did. I, I finished the job. I think he would reference it. And then he came back. Told me, go take a shower. Let me stop you there. [00:37:10] Speaker ?: Sorry. [00:37:10] Speaker 3: While you were, um, murdering Grace, were you saying anything to Grace that you recall? [00:37:17] Kiara McCulley: Just say, I'm sorry. You kept telling her, please just apologize and I'll let you go. [00:37:27] Speaker 3: Where, on the bed or in the room, did Grace die? She was on the bed. You stated that Isaac then came back? Yes. Where were you in the garage when Isaac came back? [00:37:40] Kiara McCulley: I was standing next to the door. [00:37:43] Speaker 3: And where was the sword? [00:37:45] Kiara McCulley: It was on the bed at the time. [00:37:48] Speaker 3: What, if anything, did Isaac say when he came back? [00:37:51] Kiara McCulley: He told me to go take a shower. [00:37:55] Speaker 3: Did you? Yes. All right. How long do you think you should, it took you to shower? About 15 minutes. When you came back, or when you, after you left the shower, what did you do? [00:38:08] Kiara McCulley: I got dressed, grabbed a couple towels, and started heading towards the garage. So Isaac had told me that he was going to clean it up. [00:38:17] Speaker 3: What was your plan for once you got to the garage? [00:38:20] Kiara McCulley: I was just going to help, give him a hand. [00:38:23] Speaker 3: When you got to the garage, what did you observe? [00:38:25] Kiara McCulley: I saw her body on the floor, the sword on the table, and I freaked out. [00:38:32] Speaker 3: What did you do? [00:38:33] Kiara McCulley: I locked the door, ran back into the house, the main house, and realized what had just happened. [00:38:45] Speaker 3: When you were exiting the garage and headed into the main house, did you see anyone? I heard the cops. Was Isaac present at any point from when you, or what, let me ask you this, when was the last time you saw Isaac? [00:39:00] Kiara McCulley: When he came to tell me to take a shower. [00:39:06] Speaker 3: When you went to go, when you went back to the garage, where was Grace? She was on the floor. Is that where you had left her? [00:39:13] Kiara McCulley: She was on the bed when I left. [00:39:15] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:39:24] Speaker 3: Do you remember any injuries to your hand, or hands? [00:39:27] Kiara McCulley: I got a couple cuts on my hands from the sword. I got a couple cuts on my hands from the sword. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:30] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:45] Speaker 3: I got a couple cuts on my hands. I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:48] Speaker ?: I got a couple cuts on my hands. [00:39:59] Speaker 3: Ms. McCauley, you're testifying today. Pursuant to a plea agreement you've accepted. Is that correct? Yes. And what are the consequences without saying any numbers? If you do not testify truthfully today, what is your understanding of the consequences of of lying? [00:40:29] Kiara McCulley: I could get more time. [00:40:32] Speaker 3: Could you also face additional charges? I believe so, yes. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? [00:40:37] Speaker 1: You may. [00:40:39] Speaker 3: Ms. McCauley, I'll come to you with what's been marked as State's Exhibit 91, OK? I'm going to hand this to you. I just ask that you review it, and tell me if you recognize what it is, OK? [00:40:49] Speaker ?: OK. [00:40:54] Speaker 3: You can look through the rest of the document if you need to. [00:40:58] Kiara McCulley: Yeah, I recognize this. [00:41:02] Speaker 3: And I'll just have you look through all of it really quick. OK. [00:41:06] Speaker ?: Thank you. [00:41:36] Speaker 3: What is State's Exhibit 91? [00:41:56] Kiara McCulley: My plea agreement. [00:41:59] Speaker 3: Your plea agreement? Yes. This is the plea agreement that you signed and accepted and was filed into court last January? Yes. And did you plead guilty to aggravated murder in the second degree? [00:42:18] Kiara McCulley: I did. [00:42:19] Speaker 3: Did you plead guilty to conspiracy to commit first degree murder under willful and deliberate? I did. And in exchange for that plea, are you agreeing to fully cooperate in this case? Yes. Karen, at this time I'd move to admit State's Exhibit 91? [00:42:38] Speaker 1: Any objection to 91? No objection from defense. 91 is admitted without objection. [00:42:45] Speaker 3: I don't need to publish this time. Chiara, you stated today that the injuries to your hands were from the sword. Is that correct? Yes. Do you recall doing a police interview with, now Sergeant, but Detective Javier Vigil back on the day of the murder? A little bit, yes. How were you feeling during that interview with Detective, then Detective Vigil? [00:43:15] Kiara McCulley: I was, I had a lot of adrenaline at the time. I was freaking out a lot. So I couldn't, I was having a hard time communicating clearly. Like, I was saying crazy shit. Cause I, I was also kind of excited to talk to someone who wasn't Isaac. [00:43:37] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:43:38] Speaker 3: Do you recall what you told Sergeant Vigil as it relates to how you'd gotten the injuries on your hands? [00:43:44] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember exactly what I said. [00:43:47] Speaker 3: Did you tell Sergeant Vigil that it happened from dropping a knife a day prior? [00:43:51] Kiara McCulley: I don't believe, I don't think so. [00:44:14] Speaker ?: I don't want you to do it. [00:44:31] Speaker 3: Kiara, were you fully honest with Detective Vigil during your police interview? [00:44:35] Kiara McCulley: No. [00:44:36] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:44:39] Kiara McCulley: I lied about what I thought happened. So I said I don't remember, but I remembered a lot more than I wanted to. [00:44:49] Speaker 3: Why'd you lie? [00:44:51] Kiara McCulley: I was scared. [00:45:02] Speaker 3: Talking about the messages between you and Isaac, there are times that you ask him to commit the murder of Grace. Do you recall saying that? [00:45:11] Kiara McCulley: I remember telling him to do something, anything. Whether it was kill her or get her the f*** out. Sorry. I didn't care if it was to get rid of her, just get her to leave somehow or kill her, get it over with, just do something, get her out of my space. [00:45:30] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:45:34] Speaker 3: What did you think would happen for you as it relates to Ghost if you had killed Grace? [00:45:40] Kiara McCulley: I would have ranked up and been officially a part of it. And... [00:45:46] Speaker 4: Can we approach her? [00:45:47] Kiara McCulley: I would... I would... [00:45:52] Speaker ?: Okay. Thank you. [00:46:40] Speaker 3: I ask that, Kiara, what did you think would happen as it relates to you and Ghost if and when you murdered Grace? [00:47:10] Kiara McCulley: I believe that I would rank up in Ghost and that I would get paid as well. Is there an amount of money that you thought you would get paid? You didn't tell me the exact amount. [00:47:40] Speaker 3: You've had two other interviews. Do you recall those? One with another one here at the courthouse with Detective Vigil? Yes. And then another one with some of Isaac's attorneys? Yes. And were you fully honest in those interviews? [00:48:05] Kiara McCulley: Not fully. [00:48:07] Speaker 3: What do you mean by that? [00:48:09] Kiara McCulley: I had, I was scared to say that, I said that Isaac had swung first, but in reality he just handed me the sword. [00:48:22] Speaker 3: So Isaac Apodaca, did Isaac Apodaca take any swings using the sword at Grace's body? [00:48:29] Kiara McCulley: As far as I'm aware, no. [00:48:31] Speaker 3: You should have clarified, in your presence. [00:48:33] Kiara McCulley: In my presence, no. [00:48:47] Speaker 3: A moment, Your Honor. [00:48:48] Speaker 1: Yes. A moment, Your Honor. [00:48:49] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:49:17] Speaker 3: Kara, have you been truthful today about your role in the murder of Grace Jennings? [00:49:26] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:49:27] Speaker 3: Pass the witness. [00:49:34] Speaker 1: Examination? Yes. [00:49:45] Speaker 4: Good morning, Kara. [00:49:46] Kiara McCulley: Good morning. [00:49:47] Speaker 4: How are you? [00:49:49] Kiara McCulley: I'm okay. [00:49:49] Speaker ?: Good. [00:49:51] Speaker 4: Okay. Kara, you did multiple interviews in this case, as you discussed with Ms. Haley, the prosecutor, correct? [00:49:59] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:49:59] Speaker 4: Okay. And one was initially with Detective Javier Veal on October 29, 2022, correct? [00:50:09] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:50:10] Speaker 4: The date of the incident? You had no attorney present then, correct? [00:50:14] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [00:50:16] Speaker 4: Okay. You were charged with murder after that interview? [00:50:18] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:50:18] Kiara McCulley: Okay. [00:50:20] Speaker 4: The other interview was with your attorney and the prosecutors, in this case, on October 1, 2024, correct? [00:50:34] Kiara McCulley: I believe so. I believe so. [00:50:37] Speaker 4: Okay. Based on your cooperation in that interview, you entered the plea agreement that Ms. Murphy showed you on February 11, 2025, correct? [00:50:48] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:50:49] Speaker 4: Okay. After your plea agreement, you did a pretrial interview with your attorneys, Mr. Rule and Mr. Clark, the prosecutor and members of Isaac's defense team, which would include myself and Mr. David Meek, correct? [00:51:10] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:51:10] Speaker 4: Okay. Okay. [00:51:11] Kiara McCulley: I haven't seen this guy before. Thank you. [00:51:52] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. [00:52:52] Speaker 4: Thank you. And you stated in that interview that you had a couple of sips? [00:53:27] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:53:28] Speaker 4: Okay. And so it's safe to say that your story then changed and you said you had a bottle and a half of Jack Daniels that day, correct? [00:53:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:53:40] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:53:40] Kiara McCulley: Okay. [00:53:49] Speaker 4: So is it safe to say you were pretty out of it that day? [00:53:52] Kiara McCulley: I was. [00:53:53] Speaker 4: And you didn't have any real recollection of what was going on that day, correct? [00:53:58] Kiara McCulley: It was fuzzy, but I remember. [00:54:01] Speaker 4: That's all? Yes or no? You didn't have any, you don't have any real recollection of what happened that day, yes or no? [00:54:09] Kiara McCulley: No, I remember a lot. [00:54:14] Speaker 4: You remember a lot after drinking a bottle and a half of Jack Daniels? [00:54:19] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:54:23] Speaker 4: You stated that you stooped over Grace with a sword and asked her to apologize? [00:54:31] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:54:32] Speaker 4: Okay. She wouldn't and you kept stabbing her? Yes. Okay. You also believed you were drugged by Grace previously? [00:54:46] Kiara McCulley: Before the incident, yes. [00:54:47] Speaker 4: Okay. Move your approach, Charlie. [00:54:56] Speaker 1: Yes. [00:55:06] Speaker 4: Over what period of time did you drink the bottle and a half of Jack that day? [00:55:28] Kiara McCulley: I'm not sure, honestly. [00:55:30] Speaker 4: Okay. Do you remember roughly how much you weighed back then? [00:55:34] Kiara McCulley: It was about 160 at the time. [00:55:36] Speaker 4: Okay. So you don't remember how long you've been drinking for that day, correct? [00:55:43] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [00:55:44] Speaker 4: But it was that day? [00:55:46] Kiara McCulley: It was that day and the night before. [00:55:48] Speaker 4: Okay. So you're drinking into the night and into the day? [00:55:52] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:55:53] Speaker 4: Okay. You had stated that Grace had pulled a knife out of you because you have a big mouth and always say what you think, correct? [00:56:11] Kiara McCulley: Not exactly. But I just said a joke and that she didn't like. [00:56:15] Speaker 4: Okay. So you're not necessarily a very passive person, correct, Kira? [00:56:21] Kiara McCulley: I am a very passive person, actually. [00:56:23] Speaker 4: Okay. But you do like to say what you think? [00:56:27] Kiara McCulley: Not so much anymore. [00:56:28] Speaker 4: Okay. But previously? [00:56:30] Kiara McCulley: When I was younger, yes. [00:56:31] Speaker 4: You would say what you think to Isaac? [00:56:33] Kiara McCulley: To Isaac, yes. I trusted him. [00:56:36] Speaker 4: You also stated that Grace always had a knife with her, correct? [00:56:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:56:41] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, in your pre-trial interview, you had stated that Isaac handed you the sword and started swinging at Kira, correct? [00:56:58] Kiara McCulley: Kira? [00:56:59] Speaker 4: Or at Grace. [00:57:03] Kiara McCulley: He handed me the sword and that's when I got the cuts on my hands and then I swung. [00:57:12] Speaker 4: Okay. So this is the same sword that you had ordered on Amazon, correct? [00:57:17] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:57:18] Speaker 4: And you wanted the sword, correct? [00:57:20] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:57:21] Speaker 4: Okay. And in fact, you had an infatuation towards swords, correct? [00:57:26] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:57:27] Speaker 4: Okay. And your mom was part of some sort of medieval sword club, correct? [00:57:33] Kiara McCulley: It was LARPing, live action role play. [00:57:35] Speaker 4: I'm sorry? [00:57:36] Kiara McCulley: Live action role play. [00:57:37] Speaker 4: Okay. And you grew up around swords, correct? [00:57:40] Kiara McCulley: Well, not with one in the house, but she taught me how to fight with one, but we used sticks at the time. [00:57:46] Speaker 4: So your mom taught you how to fight with swords? [00:57:48] Kiara McCulley: Yeah, just for LARPing and it's fun to LARP. [00:57:53] Speaker 4: So at some point you, do you kind of want to live out this fantasy of actually using a sword? [00:57:59] Kiara McCulley: I bought it because I thought the end of the world was coming. [00:58:03] Speaker 4: Okay. And you stated in the pre-trial interview that Isaac had touched a sword and moved the sword, correct? [00:58:26] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:58:27] Speaker 4: And you state that was your testimony here today that Isaac had, or your testimony here today is that Isaac handed you the sword, correct? [00:58:35] Kiara McCulley: Yes, he handed me the sword. [00:58:37] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, in the interview prior to taking the plea agreement with your attorneys and the state, you had stated something completely different, correct? [00:58:52] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember. [00:58:53] Speaker 4: Okay. You would have stated that Isaac had swung at Kiara, correct? [00:58:59] Kiara McCulley: Use the wrong name again. [00:59:01] Speaker 4: I'm sorry? [00:59:02] Kiara McCulley: You used my name. [00:59:03] Speaker 4: Or Grace, excuse me. [00:59:04] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:59:05] Speaker 4: I don't like it. You said that Isaac had swung at Grace, correct? [00:59:09] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [00:59:10] Speaker 4: Okay. And in the police interview, you didn't say that Isaac handled the sword at all, correct? [00:59:17] Kiara McCulley: I don't recall. [00:59:23] Speaker 4: In the pre-trial interview, you stated that Isaac had did this while you were in the shower, correct? [00:59:32] Kiara McCulley: Well, there was something that happened while I was in the shower. I'm not sure exactly what, because her body moved and so did the sword. [00:59:38] Speaker 4: But you have no way of actually knowing this, correct? [00:59:41] Kiara McCulley: Just that it moved, because I went, because I saw it. [00:59:47] Speaker 4: Now, you had no coaching before the interview you initially did with Detective Vehill, correct? [00:59:52] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [00:59:53] Speaker 4: Okay. But you were prepped by your defense attorneys before doing the interview with the state before you took the plea agreement? [01:00:05] Speaker 3: Objection, Your Honor. Approach. [01:00:23] Speaker ?: Thank you. So you were prepped for the interview that you had with the state, with the prosecutors, [01:01:10] Speaker 4: and your defense attorneys before you took the plea agreement, correct? [01:01:29] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:01:29] Speaker 4: So what exactly did you want Grace to say sorry for when you were over her? [01:01:48] Kiara McCulley: For the rape that I believed happened at the time. [01:01:54] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you didn't have to stay with Isaac Abedaka to have a place to stay, correct? [01:02:05] Kiara McCulley: No. [01:02:06] Speaker 4: Okay. [01:02:06] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:02:06] Speaker 4: You, in fact, stayed in your mom's detached garage, correct? Yes. Okay. But Isaac needed a place to stay when he was staying with you, correct? [01:02:18] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:02:19] Speaker 4: And, in fact, you would kick him out frequently, correct? [01:02:22] Kiara McCulley: No. [01:02:23] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:02:27] Speaker 4: Isaac wasn't wearing a bodysuit or anything that day, correct? [01:02:31] Kiara McCulley: Not that I'm aware of. [01:02:32] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you had also previously stated that you hadn't slept for four days prior, correct? [01:02:39] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [01:02:40] Speaker 4: Okay. How do you stay awake for four days? [01:02:44] Kiara McCulley: Red Bull. [01:02:45] Speaker 4: That's a lot of Red Bull. [01:02:47] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:02:49] Speaker 4: Okay. Could you just have been imagining things? [01:02:54] Kiara McCulley: No. [01:02:56] Speaker 4: Okay. [01:03:00] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:03:02] Speaker 4: Now, after all of this happened, you took a shower, correct? [01:03:22] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:03:24] Speaker 4: You didn't call the police, did you? [01:03:26] Kiara McCulley: No. [01:03:27] Speaker 4: You didn't call 911? [01:03:29] Kiara McCulley: No, I did not. [01:03:32] Speaker 4: So, if Isaac could plan any of this, I mean, he totally missed the part of not calling 911, correct? [01:03:38] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [01:03:38] Speaker 4: Because he did call 911. Correct? [01:03:44] Kiara McCulley: That's correct. [01:03:54] Speaker 4: Now, you also stated that you've been seeing Isaac everywhere, correct? [01:03:58] Kiara McCulley: When I first got arrested, yes. Just as a foundation? [01:04:02] Speaker 1: Yeah. Clarify what you mean. [01:04:04] Speaker 4: Okay. Again, do you remember doing the pre-trial interview in this case with myself, my investigator, your attorneys, and the state's attorneys? [01:04:15] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:04:16] Speaker 4: Okay. And you have stated that you've been seeing Isaac everywhere, correct? [01:04:23] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:04:24] Speaker 4: Okay. Even in the jail? [01:04:28] Kiara McCulley: He was very far in my head. And I would see it in the mirror from time to time, but I believe that may also be part of my spiritual beliefs. [01:04:38] Speaker 4: Okay. Even in the mirror in the jail? [01:04:41] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:04:43] Speaker 4: Basically, in places that Isaac wouldn't be? [01:04:46] Kiara McCulley: Yes. And I knew it wasn't him. [01:04:47] Speaker 4: Okay. [01:04:48] Kiara McCulley: I knew he wasn't there. [01:04:49] Speaker 4: Okay. Just answer what I asked you. Okay, Karen? All right. [01:04:53] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:04:56] Speaker 4: Now, this has been going on for a very long time, correct? [01:04:59] Kiara McCulley: It stopped. [01:05:00] Speaker 4: Okay. But previously, it was going on for a very long time, correct? [01:05:02] Kiara McCulley: It happened for about two months. [01:05:04] Speaker 4: Okay. And you were seeing Grace as well, correct? [01:05:09] Kiara McCulley: Her ghost. [01:05:11] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you also love weaponry, correct? [01:05:16] Kiara McCulley: I think it's beautiful art. [01:05:18] Speaker 4: Okay. And you said that the sword was beautiful in direct examination, correct? [01:05:23] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:05:29] Speaker 4: And you brought the sword with you, correct, that day? [01:05:33] Kiara McCulley: Can you clarify? [01:05:34] Speaker 4: You brought the sword with you to the detached garage when Grace was there? [01:05:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:05:41] Speaker 4: Okay. And you didn't want Grace in your house, correct? [01:05:45] Kiara McCulley: Correct. [01:05:48] Speaker 4: So anything Isaac could have done could have been a figment of your imagination, correct? [01:05:55] Speaker 3: No. Your Honor calls for speculation. [01:05:58] Speaker 1: Sustained. [01:06:05] Speaker 4: You wanted the sharpest thing to hurt her that day, correct? Grace? [01:06:10] Kiara McCulley: I just wanted to get it over with. [01:06:12] Speaker 4: You really wanted to hurt her. [01:06:13] Kiara McCulley: I just wanted to hear her say, I'm sorry. [01:06:18] Speaker 4: Okay. And you did hurt her, correct? [01:06:21] Kiara McCulley: Trying to get it out of her, yes. [01:06:31] Speaker 4: And you had wanted to kill Grace in the tunnel initially and leave the body there so it wouldn't be discovered as quickly, correct? [01:06:40] Kiara McCulley: Yes. Yes, that was the idea. [01:06:43] Speaker 4: Now, you have previously catfished Grace, correct? [01:06:48] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:06:49] Speaker 4: Can you explain to the jury what catfishing means? [01:06:51] Kiara McCulley: Just created a false account to message her and, in my case, annoy the crap out of her. [01:06:58] Speaker 4: Okay. And how did you do this to Grace? [01:07:02] Kiara McCulley: I created a fake account with a fake name, fake picture, and tried to get under her skin. [01:07:10] Speaker 4: So you were trying to coerce her? [01:07:11] Kiara McCulley: I was trying to annoy her. No. Bug her. Upset her. Thank you. [01:07:15] Speaker 4: You were being vindictive? [01:07:17] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. Yeah. [01:07:19] Speaker 4: You've also, back to the stuff about the, um, what you've been seeing or observing or feeling in the jail, you would feel Isaac's, you've stated that you would feel Isaac's energy in the jail, correct? [01:07:31] Kiara McCulley: I don't see how that counts. Can you explain what you mean? [01:07:37] Speaker 4: It's my question, Chiara. So all I'm asking you is, you have stated that you would feel Isaac's energy in the jail, correct? [01:07:45] Kiara McCulley: Well, he was there in the jail as well, so yes. [01:07:49] Speaker 4: Maybe I'm approaching him. Good afternoon, Chiara. You have stated that you have a crazy side that comes out when you're drunk, correct? [01:08:19] Kiara McCulley: Yeah. [01:08:21] Speaker 4: Okay. And you stated that you would call this personality Abby? [01:08:26] Kiara McCulley: Isaac started calling her that, so I started calling her that. [01:08:30] Speaker 4: Okay. And, um, you also stated that you have several different personalities, correct? Yes or no? [01:08:37] Kiara McCulley: I do not have several personalities. I thought I did at the time. [01:08:40] Speaker 4: But I just said yes or no, but you believed previously that you had several different personalities, correct? [01:08:45] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:08:46] Speaker 4: Okay. Now, you stated that Isaac had the dagger, correct, multiple times? [01:09:02] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:03] Speaker 4: Okay. So his hands and fingers touched the dagger, according to you? [01:09:07] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:07] Speaker 4: Okay. You also stated that Isaac pushed down on the dagger with his palm, correct? [01:09:14] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:14] Speaker 4: Okay. You also stated that Isaac handed you the sword, correct? [01:09:20] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:22] Speaker 4: So Isaac picked up the sword with his hands, correct? [01:09:24] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:26] Speaker 4: So Isaac's hands and fingers were on the sword, correct? [01:09:30] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:30] Speaker 4: Okay. You testified that you saw the sword on the table, correct? [01:09:35] Kiara McCulley: When I came back, yes. [01:09:36] Speaker 4: Okay. So you didn't leave the sword on the table, correct? [01:09:41] Kiara McCulley: No, I did not. [01:09:47] Speaker 4: Grace was not moving when you left, correct? [01:09:49] Speaker ?: Correct. [01:09:50] Speaker 4: Okay. So someone put that sword on the table, yes or no? [01:09:55] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:09:56] Speaker 4: According to you? And so you believe Isaac had put that sword on the table? [01:10:05] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:10:06] Speaker 4: Okay. And there was only one shower in the house, correct? Yes. Okay. How many times did you stab Grace? [01:10:26] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember how many times. [01:10:28] Speaker 4: Several times? [01:10:29] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:10:33] Speaker 4: You stabbed her in the neck? [01:10:35] Kiara McCulley: I was stabbing her everywhere. [01:10:37] Speaker 4: Okay. You previously stated that you did not stab her in the neck? [01:10:42] Kiara McCulley: I don't remember if I stabbed her in the neck. [01:10:44] Speaker 4: Okay. And previously you had stated that decapitation wounds were the result of Isaac, correct? [01:10:54] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:10:56] Speaker 4: And today your testimony is different, correct? [01:10:59] Kiara McCulley: How so? [01:11:00] Speaker 4: You're basically saying something completely different that Isaac just handed the sword to you, correct? [01:11:04] Kiara McCulley: He handed it to me, but when I left and came back, that's... Okay. [01:11:07] Speaker 4: I'm just asking you, you're saying that Isaac handed you the sword. [01:11:10] Speaker 3: Mr. Your Honor, can the witness be allowed to finish an answer that's responsive? [01:11:16] Speaker 1: Ask your question, Counsel. You can address it on redirect. [01:11:21] Speaker 4: Okay. Yes or no? Isaac handed the sword to you? [01:11:25] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:11:25] Speaker 4: Correct. [01:11:25] Speaker ?: Correct. [01:11:26] Speaker 4: Okay. And then afterwards you saw the sword on the table, correct? [01:11:35] Kiara McCulley: On the table when I came back. [01:11:37] Speaker 4: Okay. One second. You had stated that Isaac had kept all the money from the sex work, correct? [01:12:14] Kiara McCulley: Yes. [01:12:15] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:12:16] Speaker 4: How were you able to afford the sword? [01:12:18] Kiara McCulley: He let me get an Amazon gift card for one. [01:12:22] Speaker 4: I'm sorry? [01:12:23] Kiara McCulley: He gave me an Amazon gift card. He rarely let me keep the money, but when he did, he would get me. [01:12:28] Speaker 1: Thank you, Your Honor. Redirect. [01:12:32] Speaker 3: Briefly, Your Honor. Kiara, when opposing counsel was questioning you, they were asking you about your plea agreement. Do you remember some of that discussion? [01:12:51] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:12:54] Speaker 3: Does your plea agreement require you to help get a conviction for Isaac Apodaca? [01:13:00] Kiara McCulley: No. [01:13:01] Speaker 3: What is your number one job as a result of your plea agreement? To testify honestly. I want to clarify the alcohol that you consumed, okay? Okay. As you sit here today, how much alcohol did you consume during the night of October 28th into the 29th of 2022? [01:13:35] Kiara McCulley: I honestly don't remember very well how much there was. [01:13:40] Speaker 3: By the time that you murdered Grace in the mid-afternoon, were you sober? I was mostly sober, yes. Did you murder Grace Jennings on purpose? [01:14:02] Kiara McCulley: I believed I was doing it for a reason. Mom, Your Honor? [01:14:06] Speaker 1: Yes. [01:14:06] Speaker 3: That reason or reasons you had for killing Grace that you believed in were what? [01:14:33] Kiara McCulley: That she deserved it because she was part of the individuals that were considered bad people for ghosts. And then a little bit more of encouragement, you could say, was the rape from when I was with her. [01:14:58] Speaker 3: I think further, Your Honor, we'll reserve this witness out of an abundance of caution. [01:15:01] Speaker 1: Okay. You're being reserved, which means you may be recalled later in the trial. The attorneys will stay in touch with you to let you know if you're going to be brought back in to testify. Okay? Ladies and gentlemen, I need to take a quick recess of probably five minutes, but ask you to go with the bailiff quickly, and then we'll bring you right back in. But all the rules. All rise.