Selfish Mom’s Lies Are Exposed During Cross Examination! Part 2!**

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Welcome to Rebel Chaser. My name is Gail, and this is part two of a video with Judge McNabb. This is actually a trial, and this is part two of that trial, and I'll let you guys watch. [00:00:13] Speaker 2: Good afternoon. We're back on the record, the matter of Dreyer v. Dreyer, case number 2507026DM. We're resuming the trial that we began this morning after our lunch recess, and it's my understanding that Ms. Wolfram is going to call the defendant at this point to testify regarding the property issues. Is that correct? [00:00:34] Speaker 3: It is correct. [00:00:35] Speaker 2: Great. Mr. Dreyer, would you raise your right hand, please? Would you state your name for the record and spell it? [00:00:41] Speaker 4: Jacob Robert Dreyer, J-A-C-O-B-R-O-B-O-R-T-D-R-E-Y-E-R. [00:00:49] Speaker 2: Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give in this matter is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? [00:00:55] Speaker 4: Yes. [00:00:55] Speaker 2: Thank you. Ms. Wolfram. [00:00:57] Speaker ?: All right. [00:00:58] Speaker 3: Okay, Jacob, you've heard Carly's testimony with regards to the Monarch program. Is that right? [00:01:03] Speaker 4: That's correct. [00:01:04] Speaker 3: All right. And what – can you tell the court more, kind of explain more fully what that program is? [00:01:09] Mrs. Dreyer: Sure. Monarch is a budgeting app that I, you know, initially paid for, but what it does is syncs through third-party authentication. All of the accounts and balances and is updated in almost real-time. Usually there's about a 24-hour delay. So it gives you a full financial picture of all of the assets, debts, and net worth to, you know, best budget your finances. [00:01:46] Speaker 3: Okay. You heard Carly's testimony that they – she thought most of the accounts were displayed except the HELOC. Would that be accurate? [00:01:54] Mrs. Dreyer: That's correct. [00:01:55] Speaker 3: Okay. And why wasn't the HELOC displayed? [00:01:58] Mrs. Dreyer: The HELOC was not displayed because the Monarch – the program itself – could not integrate through third-party authentication into the program itself. [00:02:10] Speaker 3: Okay. So that – it would be accurate that she couldn't see that, but that wasn't because you purposely did not grant her access to that? [00:02:19] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [00:02:19] Speaker 3: Okay. How could one get access? So between the two of you, how could you get access or see the expenses or things from the HELOC account? [00:02:27] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah. So the HELOC account and the mortgage balance were – are currently accessible through the joint account, which the plaintiff has access to. And she can see balances, minimum payments due, and then the overall picture of what we would owe on the home. [00:02:51] Speaker 3: Okay. I want to cover one more question. When you were talking about the authentication, she said that there were times that she could not have access. She thought that was back in March. Sorry. Just for the record, do you have to say yes and no? Oh, yes. And then as for when she thought that perhaps she couldn't see things after March, do you have a potential explanation for that? [00:03:13] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes, I do. So every 90 days, the third-party authentication needs to be renewed between all of the accounts and the account holders. She lost access actually in January, and I was able to get her access back to that account the next day once she informed me that she had lost access. So if she lost access around March, that would be right around the 90-day period. And I have not heard anything from the plaintiff that she has lost access to those accounts. And I had no idea that she could no longer see the financial picture. [00:03:58] Speaker 3: Okay. And then moving back to the HELOC account. So we were talking about that separately. So with regards to the HELOC, she can see that through the joint account. Is that right? [00:04:08] Mrs. Dreyer: That's correct. [00:04:09] Speaker 3: All right. And what kind of information is available to her there? [00:04:12] Mrs. Dreyer: Total amount, the total balance on the HELOC, minimum amount payment due, next payment periods, and then any withdrawals that would come or any payments that came from my personal checking account. [00:04:35] Speaker 3: Okay. Payments made to... [00:04:37] Mrs. Dreyer: Payments made to the HELOC. [00:04:39] Speaker 3: Okay. And then her testimony is that she did not agree with the expenses that were from the HELOC. Can you explain? [00:04:47] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah. So back in December, I approached Mrs. Dreyer about potentially finding a way to ease some relief from the Chase credit card. The interest payments alone, once the credit card was run up to around the $35,000, $36,000 mark, were around $1,200 per month. And I asked her, and she agreed, that I would pull out an additional $16,500 from the account and put it toward the credit card. [00:05:26] Speaker 3: And then, so did you do that? [00:05:28] Mrs. Dreyer: I did not. [00:05:29] Speaker 3: Did you pull the money? [00:05:30] Mrs. Dreyer: I did pull the money. [00:05:31] Speaker 3: All right. And then did you make the payment towards the credit card? [00:05:34] Mrs. Dreyer: I did not. [00:05:34] Speaker 3: And why not? [00:05:39] Mrs. Dreyer: Once I realized that, you know, reconciliation was not going to be a possibility. Essentially, I did not want to free up spending so she could freely spend money and run up the card. I mean, she ran up the card $10,000 over limit. So it would have been, I believe, a $3,000 or $5,000 payment to even get that account current. [00:06:11] Speaker 3: Okay. So in other words, if we're talking about a period where I think you would agree it's accurate, at least as far as her testimony, that you guys were not in agreement of how to allocate those funds. [00:06:22] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [00:06:23] Speaker 3: But as far as where that money went from and came to, you planned, you withdrew it in order to apply it to the account, but you did not because of these reasons. Is that fair? [00:06:33] Mrs. Dreyer: That's correct. All right. [00:06:36] Speaker 3: So as it stands with the HELOC, where is that money now? [00:06:42] Mrs. Dreyer: So some of that money has been spent because of our, I've been paying for two households. So that has dwindled down and I've been just trying to make ends meet, paying off normal bills, a mortgage, my own personal rent, which increased in March after my lease expired. So my bills increased. And at that point we gave notice to the plaintiff that we give a 30-day notice to the plaintiff that those payments were no longer to be made on that card. [00:07:26] Speaker 3: Right. Because they weren't feasible under the budget. [00:07:28] Mrs. Dreyer: They weren't feasible under the budget. Correct. [00:07:31] Speaker 3: Okay. So moving back to sort of the bigger picture finances that were available under Monarch. So you've heard Carly's testimony and then just to affirm from your side, in the relevant period of time that we're talking about, so from August of 2025, you made mortgage payments. Is that accurate? [00:07:50] Mrs. Dreyer: That's correct. [00:07:51] Speaker 3: All right. And what was the mortgage payment? [00:07:53] Mrs. Dreyer: It was 1960 or 1950 per month. [00:07:58] Speaker 3: All right. And did you make that every month? [00:08:02] Mrs. Dreyer: Every single month. [00:08:02] Speaker 3: All right. Ever late? [00:08:04] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [00:08:04] Speaker 3: Ever sort of hold it over that you weren't going to pay the mortgage? [00:08:07] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [00:08:08] Speaker 3: All right. With regards to the HELOC payment, has that been made every month? [00:08:13] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes. [00:08:14] Speaker 3: All right. How about the utilities for the house? [00:08:17] Mrs. Dreyer: Every month. [00:08:18] Speaker 3: All right. And this was consistent. Carly's testimony also has been that you changed the bills over to your name at some point. Is that right? [00:08:27] Speaker 4: That's correct. [00:08:28] Speaker 3: Correct. And after doing that, did you make all the payments? [00:08:32] Speaker 4: I did. Correct. [00:08:33] Speaker 3: Okay. And is it, when you moved the payments over to your name, did you have, do you have any knowledge of any other obligations for the marital estate or the maintenance that were, remained Carly's obligation? [00:08:48] Mrs. Dreyer: Can you ask that in a different way? Okay. [00:08:52] Speaker 3: So did you take over everything that you believed, or did you leave anything specifically for her, I think, other than the phone bill, which has been testified to? [00:09:04] Speaker 4: Wait, sorry. [00:09:04] Speaker 3: Was there anything, after you moved the utilities, after you moved all the payments over to your name, [00:09:09] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes. [00:09:10] Speaker 3: Was there anything else that Carly would have been obligated to pay each month other than her phone bill? [00:09:15] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [00:09:15] Speaker 3: Okay. So you maintained all living expenses. Correct. All right. Now let's talk about the child support payments. Do you, it is, is it your understanding that you made a payment in January? [00:09:24] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes. [00:09:24] Speaker 3: And what day did you make that payment? [00:09:26] Mrs. Dreyer: January 1st. [00:09:27] Speaker 3: All right. And how much was that? [00:09:28] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, $2,039. Okay. And then. I'm sorry, $2,200. [00:09:34] Speaker 3: Right. Um, and why was it more than the 2039 that you began making payments in in February? [00:09:41] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, because we did a recalculation. Um, based on, um, uh, healthcare, uh, because I, in the year of 2025, I, um, was, I had free premium through my employment employer, but starting the year of 2026, uh, I began having to pay a premium of $377 per month. [00:10:04] Speaker 3: All right. So then in February, recalculated new child support amount was agreed upon 2039. [00:10:10] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [00:10:10] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, there was a question regarding the reimbursement of your vehicle. So it's currently Carly's testimony that, um, she didn't really receive free support because you would sort of give her the child support money, but then take your own car payment out of it. Is that right? [00:10:29] Mrs. Dreyer: That is correct for her testimony. [00:10:31] Speaker 3: All right. And then do you have an explanation for that? [00:10:35] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, yes. So in January, um, I was attempting to change the, where the payment location came from to my personal account. Um, I did, I, it must've been an error, um, for the month of January where I did not submit, um, that $935 back into the joint account. Um, there was another charge in February of $935 before it was fully rectified, that that money was actually put back into the account. All right. And that was the last pay period for, or that's the last time that a auto loan payment was taken from that account. [00:11:14] Speaker 3: Okay. So if there is, um, it, there could potentially that, that one payment in January would be accurate. Yes. But then as of February, if there were withdrawals of your, uh, truck payment, those were reimbursed. Correct. All right. And so the total outstanding that she might have been sort of wrongfully deducted would just be that $900 and change in January. Correct. Okay. Um, also the car payments, uh, who made all the car payments? [00:11:44] Mrs. Dreyer: I did. [00:11:44] Speaker 3: So consistent with Carly's testimony. [00:11:48] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Yes. [00:11:49] Speaker 3: Yep. Um, and any, um, any other obligations that I didn't cover that you made payments towards? [00:11:59] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, you know, her half of the insurance for their car or for her car. Um, gas. I mean, just the normal, the normal things to cover the living expenses, the household living [00:12:14] Speaker 3: expenses. Okay. Let's talk about, um, with regards specifically to the children. Did you, did she ever request that you make any payments, uh, like, did she ever request that you make any additional or cover any additional expenses for the children? Let's go from January to present. [00:12:34] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, she did, um, uh, express, um, uh, sorry. She did request, um, payments for some child active or child activities, uh, such as, um, golf camp and, um, uh, this, this new soccer league. Um, and then [00:12:55] Speaker 3: I believe for football as well. All right. How about for food for the kids to feed them? No. How about for like needing to take them for, I don't know, some other kind of like glasses or to the dentist or anything like that? No. As far as you know, do your, did your children want for anything, uh, on either of your parenting times from January to present? No. All right. Um, um, how about, uh, with regards to, and I guess just to confirm her testimony, you were not made aware of any, um, program or any recertification needs that she might've had that would have allowed her to get employment. Is that correct? That is correct. All right. So when she says you didn't tell her she's correct. Correct. All right. Um, as for the medical bills that are outstanding, um, did you make payments towards U of M West medical bills in the past? I have. Yes. All right. Were you aware of outstanding balances, uh, for the, um, [00:13:58] Mrs. Dreyer: exhibits 27 and 28? Uh, she did give me bills for her own personal medical expenses. Yes. All right. [00:14:06] Speaker 3: And, um, were you made aware that those, uh, like when those charges were incurred in other words, were they prior to the separation? Do you have any idea? I actually don't know that. Okay. Perfect. Um, let's talk about your employment. Um, so she gave a brief rundown. Do you want to confirm what is your employment history? I believe she started in September of 2019. [00:14:35] Mrs. Dreyer: As far as hers. So let's go with yours as well. Okay. So December of 2019, I was employed, um, at Johnson and Johnson, um, uh, in their electrophysiology division. Um, I was given an opportunity to move to a sales role. Uh, so I left Johnson and Johnson and went to, uh, Acutis medical to take a step up in my career. All right. And then from Acutis medical, where'd you go from there? Yeah. So, um, I think it was Thanksgiving of 2023, um, Acutis medical closed commercial operations in the U S. Uh, I was given three months, uh, to look for work. Um, and I was able to find a job only missing one day of, of employment at that time. And that, uh, job was vector medical, um, which I believe I started January 8th of 2024. All right. And let's talk about your employment with, uh, vector. What was your role there? Um, I started out as a territory account manager. Um, within six months, I was promoted to regional sales director. Um, and, um, I've been in a regional sales director for [00:15:57] Speaker 3: almost two years or actually just under two years now. All right. And kind of specifically with regards to the travel commitment, cause that's what we've sort of decided is relevant. What did you understand to be your travel commitment at, uh, I guess from the time you began? Uh, yeah, from the time I began [00:16:15] Mrs. Dreyer: at vector medical, um, it was up to a hundred percent travel. Um, so there were days where I had to be, you know, out earning, uh, you know, Sunday through the rest of the week or Monday through the rest of the week. Um, then there was also weeks where I didn't travel at all. Um, there was, it would kind of go in waves and sometimes I would, I think there was an entire five week period where I did not have any travel. Um, but, uh, that position allowed me to actually, to work from home, um, during the week [00:16:50] Speaker 3: of, uh, on the days that I did not travel. Okay. So at some point did the travel demands change? [00:16:56] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, yes, they did. When was that? Um, August 1st of, uh, 2025. Um, uh, once she, or when the plaintiff, uh, was arrested, uh, was arrested, I had to go to my work and tell them, um, that I could no longer travel until we could figure out what my family situation would be. Okay. So they gave me an exemption for, uh, a month and a half of no travel so I could take the, or so I could take care of my [00:17:28] Speaker 3: children, uh, while she was working through her legal issues. Okay. And then when did that exemption expire? [00:17:35] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, the exemption expired. I want to say January of this year, I was made aware that they would like me to have increased travel. Um, and they wanted me into, in the field, um, at least three days per week. Um, which is why, um, I agreed to, um, a 60/40 split, um, at the time. You're referring to your parenting time schedule. Yeah. My parenting time schedule. So, uh, I agreed to a 60/40 split to accommodate my work. Um, and then it, at the end of Q1 of 2025, um, they again expressed, uh, that they would like me to increase my travel again. However, this time it was outside of the [00:18:24] Speaker 3: scope of my custody agreement. Okay. And so, um, kind of regardless of the parenting time schedule with the demands of the travel for your job, sort of, even if you could, if, if plaintiff would agree to accommodate your parenting schedule, did you feel that you could, um, appropriately care for your kids with that amount of travel? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So in other words, you, you could, um, [00:18:50] Mrs. Dreyer: you could maintain both. I could maintain both on, on days that I was allowed to work from home. Okay. I was able to take the kids to school, drop, pick them up from school, get them to their activities. [00:19:01] Speaker 3: Okay. But sort of aside from the parenting time aspect of it with, we're, we're talking about, um, at some point you and your employer obviously came to a disagreement about what level of, of travel could be maintained. Is that right? That's correct. Yep. All right. So explain why that was sort of [00:19:16] Mrs. Dreyer: incompatible. Uh, so on July 15th, um, after the quarter ended, um, it became clear when they put me on a performance improvement plan, um, that, uh, was outside of the scope of my custody agreement, um, that they wanted me back in the field full time. Okay. They wanted me back traveling five days a week. And I tried to work with them throughout the, uh, since really January of, uh, 2026. Um, however, um, we could not come to an agreement, uh, on, on remaining at vector medical, um, long-term. [00:20:04] Speaker 3: All right. In other words, were you placed in a position of choosing between basically full-time travel or taking care of the children? [00:20:12] Mrs. Dreyer: I was, it was either full-time travel or, um, I would have to give up or sorry, I would either have to give up custody during the week and do full-time travel, or I could have my custody time in being [00:20:26] Speaker 3: my children's lives. All right. And what did you choose? [00:20:29] Mrs. Dreyer: I chose to be in my children's lives. All right. Um, with, uh, regards to the actual type of [00:20:36] Speaker 3: employment. So like, are you able to get this exact same job that you were doing for vector with a [00:20:41] Mrs. Dreyer: different company? Um, it's going to be a very difficult challenge. Um, at my level, there are only four companies that have roles, uh, at my same level in West Michigan. I could potentially find something, um, outside of West Michigan. Um, but that would require, um, the ability to, to move my children and move their school. Um, so it's, it's a very limited scope. It's a very highly specialized [00:21:11] Speaker 3: field. All right. And let's kind of pivot a little bit. So you can either do the same job outside of West Michigan, or you could do a different job in West Michigan, perhaps, perhaps I'd have, um, I have, [00:21:24] Mrs. Dreyer: um, I've been on six job interviews, um, since in the last two weeks, uh, one is outside of the scope of Grand Rapids. Um, the other one is inside of the scope of Grand Rapids. However, it is outside of my field of specialty and will be a very challenging jump, um, to go from my area of medicine into a different area of medicine. So, um, it would not be extremely likely that I would be able to land that [00:21:56] Speaker 3: job. All right. So you don't know of any, is it fair to say, I guess that you don't know of any sort of lateral moves. You can't sort of apply to your three competitors or something? [00:22:06] Mrs. Dreyer: No, the people, the, the, the, the companies that have the same level of, um, position, uh, the people who have been in those roles have been in there for 15 to 20 years already. Um, so there's the, the jobs [00:22:21] Speaker 3: just don't come freely. Sure. Okay. So now that we're talking about your level of employment and such, you've heard that the plaintiff's testimony with regards to, she feels like she was, um, cut off from finances. Did you, would you agree with that? I would not. All right. And what kind of, I guess, what is your explanation for, um, why she feels cut off or like, can you offer your [00:22:47] Mrs. Dreyer: counterpoint on that? Uh, sure. So I, I consider, um, maintaining household expenses, maintaining mortgage, maintaining car payment, maintaining insurance as a spousal support. And then on top of that, I put myself on child support January 1st. Um, so she was receiving close to $6,000 in, in support per month. And with a, uh, take home pay monthly of $12,000, that is almost exactly half of my take home, not including what I needed to provide for pro what I needed to do to provide for my [00:23:25] Speaker 3: children also. All right. So in other words, if we take your word for it, that she received 50%, [00:23:30] Mrs. Dreyer: what came out of your 50%? Oh, I spent, um, money on clothes for my children. Um, I spent, um, I did almost every haircut until this past week. Um, uh, you know, I bought them, what'd I say? I still said I bought them clothes. Um, I paid for their, their medical bills when I took them. Also for your household expenses. My household, my rent, um, my electricity, um, and then food for my children. So you didn't just bank $6,000 a month either? No. Right. Okay. I was operating a loss of around $2,000 per month. Okay. Um, I don't know if we explicitly said this, [00:24:10] Speaker 3: so let's go back and say this as far as the credit card, right? We, she's calling it a joint credit card. We're talking about chase freedom credit card ending in seven, four, five, one. Sorry. Yes. Yes. All right. So you understand that's what they're referring to as a joint credit card. Do you refer to that as a joint credit card? I do not. All right. With regards to the expenses placed on that account. Do you agree with her testimony that she opened that as a joint account and you used it for joint expenses prior to say August of 2025? No. Okay. And why, what do you [00:24:43] Mrs. Dreyer: believe that is the nature of that credit card? The nature of that credit card was essentially for household expenses, food and, and, and things for the, the, uh, for our family. Um, she took it out in her own name and added me as an authorized signatory for, uh, her own credit purposes. Um, but outside of the, that outside of the scope of just the normal, um, exp expenses for the children, uh, there were numerous other expenses, like completely redoing my, um, master bedroom, um, buying decorations, throwing parties that there were, you know, the list goes on. [00:25:24] Speaker 3: All right. So in other words, um, there was some testimony regarding one, I think, fence repair. Were you aware of that? I was not. Um, other than the fence repair, have you been made aware of necessities? Um, in other words, were you given any opportunity to provide funds for necessities for either the children or the property before she was sort of required to put it on the credit card? No. No. All right. Um, for very succinct example, as far as the fence, right? She didn't say like, I need money for this fence. Otherwise I'm going to put it on the credit card. I didn't know it was broken until today. Okay. Um, so with regards to the outstanding balance, you did not, I think we've agreed to this just for the record. You did not make any purchases on that card after August of 2025. Correct. And is that like, why did, why, why are we certain of that? [00:26:17] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, my last, um, my last charge, uh, was to Oakland County, um, um, August 13th was the last transaction from, uh, my use of that credit card. Um, and I started using my American Express card after [00:26:39] Speaker 3: that in an attempt to separate, um, the spending. Okay. And as far as that goes, you were no longer [00:26:46] Mrs. Dreyer: authorized on that card. Is that right? I was authorized on that card until March. Okay. [00:26:52] Speaker 3: And then, um, with regards to the payments to that joint or that, that, like I said, they're referring to as a joint credit card, but the freedom account ending in seven, four, five, one, who made the payments on that account? I did. And what was the amount of those payments? Uh, since August, [00:27:11] Mrs. Dreyer: I've made $26,000 or 26, 320 and 95 cents towards that credit card. So, um, if the balance and we kind [00:27:21] Speaker 3: of stipulate and agree that the balance is close to 40,000, you've made $25,000 in payments already. [00:27:27] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. All right. [00:27:28] Speaker 3: All right. Anything else that the court needs to understand about your finances? [00:27:37] Mrs. Dreyer: So for a long period of time, even before, um, even before the separation in August, um, there was a major overspending issue. Um, we would spend more, um, each month, uh, than I brought home. And then we would have to use my bonuses to make large payments on these credit cards to stay afloat. Um, that practice has essentially had to continue during the divorce process. Um, because I'm paying for two households and frankly, it's, you know, 14,000 a month in expenses is [00:28:24] Speaker 3: not feasible when I only bring home 12. Okay. So in other words, um, the overspending in the maintenance of this status quo sort of, um, allowed for the overspending to continue. Is that about correct? Okay. Um, I think that covers my basis for the property. So no further questions. [00:28:49] Speaker 6: Ms. Schultz. Thank you, Mr. Dreyer. I want to talk about the HELOC first. So, um, it's your testimony that the HELOC and correct me if I'm wrong, but the HELOC, um, was not integrated into the Monarch system. Is that correct? That is correct. Okay. And the HELOC is through Lake Michigan Credit Union? That is correct. Okay. You have at least four or five bank accounts, including the children's bank accounts that are also through LMCU. That is correct. Okay. And those are all visible in Monarch. That is correct. Okay. And so the HELOC is the only one that through the same bank can, cannot be integrated into Monarch. The HELOC and the mortgage balance. [00:29:34] Mrs. Dreyer: Okay. So the mortgage loans. Yeah. Sorry. Repeat that. Because they are different loans than just [00:29:41] Speaker 6: attaching, um, uh, bank accounts. Okay. Um, can you, I think I'm missing something. So I think you were talking about a review period for 90 days. Um, so somehow walk me through the process of Ms. Dreyer's [00:29:57] Mrs. Dreyer: access to Monarch being cut off. So every 90 days, um, the way the program works is it uses third party authentication, um, to connect to your other bank accounts and financial institutions. And every 90 days, those time out. So every 90 days you have to go back in and reconnect all of the accounts. I had no knowledge that Mrs. Dreyer lost, um, access around March, but in January when she did tell me that [00:30:27] Speaker 6: she lost access, I gave it to her next day. Okay. You, so she was cut off in March after you had, go ahead. I said apparently yes. Okay. But the accounts that you were supposed to reconnect, I guess I, what I'm not understanding is how were you not cut off, but Ms. Dreyer was cut off. Um, because wait, uh, say that again. So if, if you didn't lose access to, to Monarch back in March, why did Ms. Dreyer, if essentially the same accounts were being integrated? [00:31:08] Mrs. Dreyer: So her access and the financial institutions, they do time out, they, they do time out after 90 days, but I am the account holder in Monarch under my email address. So I would not lose access. [00:31:24] Speaker 6: Okay. Who recertified, um, I guess, and, and forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms, but I think, you know, where I'm, where I'm kind of going here is who recertified these accounts during the marriage for the use of Monarch? I did. Okay. And during the marriage, Ms. Dreyer was the one handling the finances primarily, correct? Primarily. Yes. Okay. So during the marriage, you made sure that Ms. Dreyer and you always had access to Monarch whenever you had to recertify. [00:31:55] Mrs. Dreyer: We did not use, start using Monarch until after August. Uh, or actually, I'm sorry. It was two months before August, uh, happened is when we, I first opened the Monarch account. Okay. And you made sure she was on it at that point. Correct. And I sat down, walked her through it, walked her through her access. Um, I've actually done that multiple times, uh, throughout August to January of this past [00:32:21] Speaker 6: year. Okay. And you didn't think it was important at any time in the past few months to make sure she still had access, um, to know where the family's funds essentially were going. I didn't know she didn't have access. Okay. But you didn't check. No. Okay. Um, as far as the initial balance of the HELOC, so in August, 2025, you transferred $18,980.30 from the HELOC to your personal account. That's incorrect. Okay. Where, okay. Then what was that initial, um, transfer for? Cause there's, there's a transfer of that $18,980 in August, 2025. What is that for? I don't, there shouldn't, [00:33:11] Mrs. Dreyer: the transfer should not have happened in the $16,500. Um, that transfer happened in November or it was December of 2025. Um, the original HELOC was taken out where we had, or we spent $19,000 on, um, the additional, um, uh, the construction of our deck and patio in our backyard. Okay. So, okay. So the last last four is wrong. The total, the total balance of the, of the HELOC current, as it currently sits [00:33:46] Speaker 6: today is 34,000. Right. Okay. So I'm going to pull up, um, our exhibit three, because I'm trying to understand when these account transfers from the HELOC were made. Okay. This is the joint or what was previously the joint bank account, correct? Uh, yeah, it looks like it. Okay. There's a transfer of $18,980 and 30 cents into that account on August 12th, 2025. What is that for? That's from the HELOC, is it not? What's it? I'm trying to understand what [00:34:37] Mrs. Dreyer: this transfer is from. I am too. Um, let's, because the beginning balance was around 19,000. Okay. So it's your testimony, I guess, today, [00:35:03] Speaker 6: that you guys had spent that 18 some thousand dollars on whatever it was during the marriage. And that was an agreed upon amount. That's what you're saying. Correct. Okay. Um, and then in December, you took $16,500 and transferred it into your personal account. Correct. Because I was [00:35:22] Mrs. Dreyer: attempting to make a, um, payment on the chase credit card because the, um, interest payments alone were $1,200 per month and it was not feasible to continue with that. Okay. But you, you didn't make that payment, right? That's correct. I left it in my bank account, which is why it reflects a $30,000, um, balance, but that money is in that bank account. Okay. But I don't have an accounting of where that [00:35:48] Speaker 6: money went, right? It's been in your general bank, your personal bank account. So essentially it's been being dipped into over the past, what, eight months now? No, it didn't start getting dipped into until [00:35:59] Mrs. Dreyer: two months ago. Okay. The balance remained over $16,500, um, until two months ago when the kind of rubber hit the road and the, you know, it, the losses every month caught up. This is why we filed a motion to have the house put up for sale because it was not a feasible long-term solution. Okay. [00:36:25] Speaker 6: We'll get back into kind of what, what happened there in the last couple of months is, as you said, you know, when the rubber kind of hit the road. Um, but you said something in your testimony that said, essentially, I didn't want to free up spending. So that's why you took that HELOC money. You, in other words, you wanted to make sure you had full access to funds and that Ms. Dreyer had to get funds [00:36:45] Mrs. Dreyer: through you. Uh, no, I took the money out to make a payment, uh, on the credit card. However, um, to be frank, she snuck another person, another guy into my house with my children home. [00:36:59] Speaker 6: Mr. Dreyer, I want to, I'm not asking about any of that right now. Right now I'm trying to understand use, follow me here. You took $16,500 from the HELOC and put it into your personal account in December of 2025, right? Correct. Okay. And you didn't pay off the credit card so she could continue using it, right? Correct. So she had zero access to funds from the HELOC at this point, correct? Correct. And she had zero access to credit limit on, the credit limit was exceeded on the joint credit card, right? Yeah, she spent a lot of money. Okay. At some point, and correct me if I'm wrong, it was probably around December 2025. The children also had their own bank accounts, what was under originally the joint accounts, and you transferred that money all out and put it into your own accounts that you created for the kids. Correct. I went to the bank and I had them do a [00:37:57] Mrs. Dreyer: direct mirror of our established accounts into a new account. Yes. Okay. And are those accounts still [00:38:07] Speaker 6: intact? Yes, they are. Okay. Why, and I guess at what point did you deem it appropriate to stop making [00:38:18] Mrs. Dreyer: payments on the joint credit card? When the expenses per month totaled over $15,000, $16,000? That is when I deemed it not, I didn't have the funds to keep doing it. Were you making the minimum payment at all at that point or no? I made the minimum payment from December through March. Okay. And you haven't [00:38:48] Speaker 6: made any payment from March forward? It's not in my name. Okay. That's not the question. You haven't made any payment on that joint credit card since March to today? Nope. And we gave 30 days notice. Okay. Mr. Dreyer, what account have you deposited your paychecks into over the past year while the divorce is pending? My personal LMCU account. Okay. And pull that up. It's what's been stipulated to. It's our exhibit four. Is this your personal account? Yes. Okay. And the date here is May 2026, correct? Correct. Yes. Okay. At the end of May of this year, you had $30,136.23 in those accounts combined? [00:39:55] Mrs. Dreyer: Minus the 16.5 from the HELOC, yes. Okay. Let's walk through your checking account. [00:40:02] Speaker 6: On May 1st, you have a deposit, a payroll deposit of $15,295.17. Correct. Okay. On May 8th, you have a payroll deposit of $5,906.84. Correct. Okay. You have another deposit from payroll on on May 15th of $2,068.32. Yes. That was mileage reimbursement for my truck. Okay. May 22nd, you have $5,906.85 of payroll deposits. That is my normal paycheck take home. Okay. Is there any other account in which funds would have been deposited into in May from your employer? [00:40:54] Mrs. Dreyer: Nope. Okay. And you guys have received all my pay stubs. [00:41:08] Speaker 6: Okay. I'm going to pull up our exhibit five. This is the joint account, correct? That's correct. Okay. And that's also May 2026. [00:41:25] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Okay. [00:41:26] Speaker 6: Okay. On May 2nd, there is a deposit of $2,039.00. Would that have been the child support? [00:41:34] Speaker 4: Correct. Okay. Okay. [00:41:45] Speaker 6: So, in May alone, you have deposits into your joint account of over $30,000. [00:41:54] Mrs. Dreyer: That's correct. Okay. [00:41:59] Speaker 6: So, what? We're in August. In three months, $30,000 is just has quite literally vanished from [00:42:09] Mrs. Dreyer: the account is what you're saying today. No, every dollar has been accounted for in spending. So, you can go through that and look. Okay. How much is your mortgage payment? It is $1,950 a month or $1,960 a month. How much are you paying in rent? $2,200 or $2,300 a month. [00:42:36] Speaker 6: Okay. So, that's like $5,000. Where's the rest of it gone? [00:42:44] Mrs. Dreyer: I paid my attorney. I paid for a private investigator to prove she was violating temporary orders. That was $6,500, I think. So, that's $11,000 right there. And then normal household bills and expenses [00:43:06] Speaker 6: cover the rest. Okay. So, you heard Ms. Dreyer testify that she is on, is getting food assistance, right? [00:43:18] Speaker 4: Yep. [00:43:20] Speaker 6: And you're spending $6,500 on private investigators and all this other stuff? Yeah. She was violating temporary orders. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about your, I guess, other access to funds you have. So, your grandparents recently passed away. I'm sorry to hear that. Did you have an inheritance that you received from them? [00:43:52] Mrs. Dreyer: No. All funds went to my parents. Okay. And my aunts and uncles. [00:43:58] Speaker 6: Okay. Do you anticipate receiving any, um, anything from that estate? [00:44:03] Mrs. Dreyer: No. Okay. And they were not wealthy. They lived in a $200,000 condo. So, I don't know where this notion that [00:44:10] Speaker 6: they're wealthy came from. Um, do you have any idea where the, um, PNC, um, letter that Ms. Dreyer received in the mail would have come from? The PNC bank. [00:44:26] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Do you know what that is for? It was a credit card application. [00:44:34] Speaker 6: You know that for a fact? Yeah, I opened it. Okay. [00:44:38] Mrs. Dreyer: Well, I didn't open the credit card. I opened the letter. Okay. [00:44:46] Speaker 6: Why would PNC have sent something to you, the title, I guess, in yours and your mother's name? [00:44:52] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, because when I was 16 years old, my mother opened a PNC account for me, um, and co-signed for a credit card to help build my credit. Um, I have not had a PNC account since I was 19 years old. Um, and that was not even fully in my name. That was actually, that account was actually in [00:45:13] Speaker 6: my mother's name. So you don't have any, go ahead. No, you go ahead. You don't have any PNC bank accounts today? No. Okay. And no PNC credit cards open today? No. Okay. Um, regarding your employment and travel. So I'm trying to understand the timeline a little better. So you had a conversation initially when with your employer regarding these concerns that they had. Uh, the, the conversations first started [00:45:45] Mrs. Dreyer: back in January of 2020 or actually late December of 2025, uh, where they expressed, um, their concern around me having, um, childcare, uh, while I worked from home. I spoke to, uh, Mrs. Dreyer about this, um, and told her, and I was still attempting to reconcile at this point. Um, but there was no effort on her part to, to, to help in any sort of way. Um, so I ended up having to put my child in daycare, um, to accommodate the work, uh, accommodate that, uh, during the day. And then at the end of the first quarter, uh, they, in my performance review, they expressed the, I need to be traveling a little bit more. And that is when, um, we took steps to reduce time from 50, 50 to 60, 40, um, parenting time to allow me to travel. Um, and then at the end of Q2, um, is when I got put on a performance review or a performance improvement plan that was outside of the scope of the 60, 40. [00:46:58] Speaker 6: Okay. So essentially, I mean, the letter that I received from Ms. Wolfram indicates that there is a, essentially a drop dead date on this performance improvement plan to probably reevaluate or review [00:47:13] Mrs. Dreyer: where things are at, um, in mid August. Right. Uh, the review was on the midpoint review was on July 31st, [00:47:22] Speaker 6: which ended up being the day I was terminated. Okay. And what happened on that day to get to the point where we're not even making it to that final review mid August? Um, I could not travel with my [00:47:35] Mrs. Dreyer: custody agreement, so they decided to terminate me. Mr. Dreyer, you, you understand Ms. Dreyer's willing to [00:47:43] Speaker 6: have the children more often. In fact, she's been requesting that. Um, yes, but I want time with my kids [00:47:50] Mrs. Dreyer: during the week also. I want to be in their lives and I'm not going to let a job dictate how much time [00:47:58] Speaker 6: I get to see my children and I will not be a weekend father. You've traveled since the children were born. That's not true. Okay. Walk me through your employment history again. So when I worked for [00:48:11] Mrs. Dreyer: Johnson and Johnson, there was no travel required for that position. So for four and a half years, I did not travel. It was not until, um, the sales opportunity came about where that did require travel that Mrs. Dreyer and I had a conversation about going back to traveling, uh, to explore this opportunity. And we both mutually agreed that it was a good opportunity for our family. So let me stop you there. When was that? Um, I wish I had my resume in front of me. Um, I started working for Johnson and Johnson right around the time we got married. So it'd been 2019? 2020? [00:49:00] Speaker 6: That you started working for Vector? [00:49:01] Mrs. Dreyer: No, Johnson and Johnson. [00:49:03] Speaker 6: Okay. When did you start working for Vector? [00:49:07] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, that would be, uh, January 8th, 2024. [00:49:11] Speaker 6: Okay. And you took that job knowing that that job would be significant travel. [00:49:18] Mrs. Dreyer: I took that job because I was entering a period where I did not have any further choice. I was not, I was no longer going to receive a paycheck and this job fell into my lap. So I had to take it to provide for my family. [00:49:33] Speaker 6: Okay. And it's been a good job. Has it not? [00:49:35] Mrs. Dreyer: It's been a great job. I love this job, but at the end of the day, they wanted me to choose between being, um, a full-time travel employee or as having, you know, time with my kids during the week. [00:49:49] Speaker 6: Mr. Dreyer, where were your clients located? [00:49:54] Mrs. Dreyer: Cleveland, Columbus, Chicago, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Detroit. Um, that was the recent territory before that. It was half the U.S. [00:50:14] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, and the performance improvement plan indicated that you were to have three to four face-to-face contacts with clients each week. [00:50:24] Speaker 4: Correct. [00:50:26] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, so that would have still left, what, three or four days potentially that you're home every week. [00:50:34] Mrs. Dreyer: No, that would leave one day. [00:50:37] Speaker 6: If you were during the week. [00:50:39] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker 6: Right. But you've got the weekend plus one or two more days during the week on days, you're only traveling three days of the week. [00:50:48] Mrs. Dreyer: So you're saying that, are you trying to argue that I should have like 10% custody of my child, my children? [00:50:57] Speaker 6: Mr. Dreyer, I'm not trying to argue anything. What I'm trying to understand is at what point did you think it was a better idea to have the children have literally zero financial stability as opposed to being gone another day a week? That's what I'm trying to understand here. You've always traveled. [00:51:18] Mrs. Dreyer: I have not always traveled, but I have for the last two jobs. Yes. [00:51:21] Speaker 6: Okay. And then a couple of days before trial, you decided that more time with the kids is better than [00:51:26] Mrs. Dreyer: having income. I decided that way before, as soon as I was put on the pit because I was trying to work with my company to come to a solution and they refused to bend at all. Okay. [00:51:44] Speaker 6: Those are the only questions I have for Mr. Dreyer. Thank you. [00:51:49] Speaker 3: Ms. Wolfram, redirect. Sure. Okay. Let's cover some of the cross-exam questions. So with regards to, let's dig a little bit deeper into the December transfer without going into, because we really are separating categories. Okay. So without going into detail of the parenting time situation that happened between December and January, just between the parties, did you believe that you needed an agreement from Carly to withdraw from the HELOC and apply that to the credit card? [00:52:29] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [00:52:30] Speaker 3: Right. In other words, you believed you were moving towards an agreement on your finances to take money from one place and put it in a different place, but that would need an agreement to do so. Would that be fair? That's correct. All right. And then in the midst of that process, you became aware that Carly did not agree? [00:52:52] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, she actually first agreed the entire time. Um, she, I brought it up to her multiple times. Um, and now I'm hearing that she never agreed to it. All right. But with regards specifically to that [00:53:06] Speaker 3: December withdrawal of the $16,000, did you believe you were attempting to get a written agreement as to what would happen with those funds to move forward financially? [00:53:18] Mrs. Dreyer: No, I didn't, I didn't think to put it in writing. I was just, we were trying to reconcile at that point. Actually, we both agreed to pause, um, the, the divorce proceedings, but we actually never made it to actually officially getting to that pause. All right. So in other words, at the point [00:53:35] Speaker 3: of that $16,000 process of moving that money, you had to stop because you didn't have an agreement. Correct. All right. Now with regards to your comments and your testimony that you did not want to free up spending. Okay. Let's break that down because making that $16,000 payment would have had what effect on the joint credit card? [00:54:00] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, that would have freed up, um, available credit, uh, for her to run it past the credit limit again. [00:54:07] Speaker 3: Okay. And so you did not say that you didn't want to free up spending because you did not want to provide for her or to allow her to support herself. What, give more context to you, like what, explain that more free up spending. What do you really mean? [00:54:24] Mrs. Dreyer: So, um, more on like the monthly budget. Um, I didn't have the funds to keep paying $1,200 per month in just interest alone payments. I've spent, like I said, $26,000 of bonus money, um, support on that card from the period of August through December, or actually through March. Um, and, sorry, what was, what was the question? [00:54:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. So the idea was like that payment would have been essentially a bandaid to the credit card, right? [00:55:00] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. That money would have just, uh, accrued interest, um, with additional spending. [00:55:06] Speaker 3: Right. So without the agreement to make that payment, or even if you had, let's say you went ahead and made the payment against Carly's wishes, that would have had the effect of allowing more overspending power on that account. Would that be accurate? That's correct. Okay. And then at that same time, so December to January, so January, so December, you decide not to make that payment in order to quote, not free up spending. But then what happens beginning January with regards to funds you give Carly to spend? [00:55:37] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, I put myself on child support, um, January 1st to make sure she had funds for the children when I realized we were no longer able to reconcile. [00:55:47] Speaker 3: All right. In other words, let's just, uh, break that down again. When you say put yourself on child support, again, we don't, we were never able to achieve a formal settlement agreement. [00:55:55] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [00:55:55] Speaker 3: So with regards to finances, I think it's accurate to say the parties did not agree. [00:56:01] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah. The, the requests have been unreasonable for, from the beginning. [00:56:05] Speaker 3: And so beginning in January, you made the decision to make voluntary child support payments. That's correct. And that would be your alternative to having made that giant payment on the credit card and allow that spending. Would that be fair? [00:56:18] Mrs. Dreyer: That is fair. Okay. All right. Um, [00:56:24] Speaker 3: and then just to, um, I guess to cover some of the income that we went over in just, in just May. Now that was just one month of account, uh, of the account, right? You got to say yes or no. Oh yeah. Sorry. Yes. Yes. Sorry. So as for that particular month, there was some additional spending, but during that month, you already testified that 50% of your income already went to support Carly's household. [00:56:50] Mrs. Dreyer: Is that right? That's correct. Since August. [00:56:53] Speaker 3: So even though she went through all of those deposits, that money came out of your 50%. [00:56:58] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. All right. [00:57:00] Speaker 3: Were any of Carly's expenses not paid so that you could make payments towards say your attorney or the private investigator you used? No. She was still completely supported that month as far as all monthly obligations. [00:57:14] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. All right. [00:57:17] Speaker 3: Um, and then I guess just to, again, double check as far as the HELOC, that balance, that $16,000 transfer from December did not begin to be used towards living expenses, um, until June. So in other words, you had testified that, um, your balance remained over 16,000 until at least June. [00:57:40] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Yes. [00:57:41] Speaker 3: Okay. So that, that money didn't ultimately go to support those living expenses until June, but now it has. Correct. All right. Um, let's, um, let's focus again on the travel. So the question then is, um, let, let, let's talk a little bit more about like, explain some of the conversations that you had with your employer, uh, with regards to travel. Did you think that there was a path forward where you could ultimately, um, continue to have travel in the same manner that you've had from August of 2025 and maintain your employment? [00:58:24] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah, that was the agreement that I worked out with my vice president. Um, and then, uh, at the end of the quarter, um, um, we had, I believe it was, uh, June 31st. We had our first pre-trial, I guess, trial discussion. I had approved PTO for that time. Um, and my boss called me on Friday night and asked me to be in Columbus on Monday to get a purchase order, uh, that would have bolstered the company's financial, uh, the finances for their series B. Um, I told him, uh, that I have no way of canceling court. Um, I had approved PTO and I needed to be there for my trial. So I told him that he needs to go if he wants somebody there. If not, I will get the purchase order remotely. Um, and, uh, he ended up having to cancel one of his vacation days on the 31st to go there. And then 15 laters or 15 days later, I was put on a PIP. [00:59:29] Speaker 3: Okay. So when they're trying to sort of characterize that you chose to have no income over your parenting, it's a little more complicated than that. [00:59:38] Mrs. Dreyer: It's a lot more complicated than that. [00:59:40] Speaker 3: Okay. So you have been sort of not traveling, um, but, um, I guess, do you think that you've been achieving appropriately for your position without traveling this, uh, since August of 2025? [00:59:56] Mrs. Dreyer: Uh, in Q2, sorry, in the first quarter of the year, I finished at 96% to my quota. And at the end of Q2, at the end of June, I was actually the only sales rep that achieved over a hundred percent to plan for my quota. [01:00:13] Speaker 3: So what does that say about your performance? [01:00:17] Mrs. Dreyer: It means my performance was not indicative of my termination. [01:00:21] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:00:22] Speaker 3: Um, you know, we, we don't have the opportunity at this point, we haven't called other people from your employer, but if we were to have that information, would they have more information about your termination that we can call them to testify about? [01:00:38] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I really don't know. [01:00:41] Speaker 3: Sure. But in other words, would you expect that they would have sort of either a difference of opinion or, um, you know, have a different story than yours, as far as your termination, if we call people from your company? [01:00:52] Mrs. Dreyer: No, that is the story of what exactly happened. Okay. [01:00:59] Speaker 3: Um, I guess let's say it this way. Um, do you expect that, or what did you, did you feel like there was another opportunity? In other words, could you have just hypothetically, temporarily given up parenting time and saved your job? [01:01:20] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, potentially I could have, um, but I chose not to. Okay. [01:01:27] Speaker 3: Um, and do you know how long that temporary arrangement could have lasted? [01:01:32] Mrs. Dreyer: Well, I was put on the PIP in, uh, on July 15th. So that was when it lasted till. [01:01:39] Speaker 3: Okay. So in other words, the amount of choice you had was limited by this performance improvement plan. [01:01:45] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Right. You did not. Yeah. I asked for 60 days because they originally gave me 30. I was denied that request. And I, when I was denied that request, I realized that this is not an actual performance improvement plan for me to improve in my, in my role. It was actually just a way to terminate me legally. [01:02:04] Speaker 3: Okay. So you did, go ahead. [01:02:05] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, kind of legally because what they did, I believe is violates employment practices, [01:02:10] Speaker 3: but that's outside our scope. [01:02:14] Mrs. Dreyer: Outside our scope. [01:02:14] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, do you, and, and what have you done to, I guess, um, restore financial support for your family? How is, how is your attempts? Let's detail that a little bit more. [01:02:28] Mrs. Dreyer: You said you've gone on six interviews, uh, five so far, one more tomorrow. I had an interview this morning at seven 30 before trial. Um, uh, mainly speaking to two companies right now, uh, Medtronic and intuitive surgical. Um, some of those roles are, one of the roles is, um, in the Ann Arbor area. So I'm not really sure whether or not that is going to be an option, uh, to even get to a position where I can get a job offer. Um, because I don't have to petition the court to allow me to move the kid's school. [01:03:05] Speaker 3: Okay. So kind of, um, bigger picture though, do you anticipate now you can't, no one can see the future, but do you anticipate that you will remain unemployed long-term? [01:03:17] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [01:03:18] Speaker 3: All right. And even if you can't reach a level that you had reached before, you anticipate you'll be able to find something to do to support the family. [01:03:25] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. Yes. [01:03:26] Speaker 3: Let's say it outright. Did you intentionally, or did you feel like you had any opportunity to avoid getting this termination and maintaining how you want to have a relationship with your children? [01:03:38] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [01:03:38] Speaker 3: Right. And did you intentionally get fired in order to punish or control the finances relative to this case? [01:03:46] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [01:03:47] Speaker 3: All right. No further questions. [01:03:52] Speaker 6: Schultz. Thank you. Um, Mr. Dreyer, I want to go back to the transfer we were talking about previously of that over $18,000 that was transferred in December. Do you recall that? Yes. [01:04:06] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes. Okay. [01:04:10] Speaker 6: Um, and that actually, it wasn't from the HELOC. That amount was actually transferred from what was previously the joint account into your account, correct? In December? [01:04:21] Mrs. Dreyer: That would have been in August. [01:04:23] Speaker 6: Or sorry, August of 2025. [01:04:25] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [01:04:26] Speaker 6: Okay. And that's after you and Ms. Dreyer separated? Correct. Okay. So there was almost $19,000 sitting in the joint account. You moved it to your account. That's what that transfer is. [01:04:37] Mrs. Dreyer: There was actually more. I left $5,000 in the joint account for her. [01:04:41] Speaker 6: Okay. So you left her $5,000. You transferred $19,000 to you. [01:04:45] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah. Because there's a $14,000 monthly budget. Okay. [01:04:49] Speaker 6: Um, regarding the performance improvement plan. So other than travel, the travel expectations, what part were you not complying with such that you felt your job was in jeopardy already? [01:05:05] Mrs. Dreyer: Um, they, you know, they listed a slew of reasons. Um, uh, one was forecasting. Um, I was ordered to go into one of my accounts and get a $300,000 order. So it was the largest order in company history. Um, and I negotiated that order, uh, with the account. Uh, but when we had court, I had to send somebody else. Um, and when they got to the account actually sent my boss, he actually only walked away with $200,000. So they said that I had inaccurate forecasting. Um, that was part of my performance review as well. Or my performance improvement plan was that I had to increase the accuracy of forecasting, despite both my CEO and vice president being the one to come to the $300,000 total. [01:06:00] Speaker 6: Okay. So you're saying that there were issues outside of the travel that ultimately would have led to your termination regardless. [01:06:09] Mrs. Dreyer: Yeah. I said no to my CEO and appeared in court instead on my PTO. [01:06:16] Speaker 6: Okay. But you would agree with me that there's this performance improvement plan also includes a series of things that you could essentially do to maintain your job. And you just told them, no, I'm not going to travel. [01:06:30] Mrs. Dreyer: I didn't say, no, I'm not going to travel. I said, no, I'm not going to travel more than three days a week. [01:06:35] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:06:40] Speaker 6: Do you understand that? Is it your testimony today that you have employment opportunities potentially in a different area hours away? [01:06:50] Speaker 4: Correct. [01:06:50] Speaker 6: Okay. And you understand that the decision you've made with vector could now completely move you out of this area, even being further from the kids? [01:07:01] Mrs. Dreyer: Yes, but I won't take a position unless I get approval from the court to move them. [01:07:04] Speaker 6: Okay. I have no other questions. [01:07:13] Speaker 3: Ms. Wolfram? I don't know if there's anything more to really clarify. I guess one last thing. With regards to your travel, how does that work? So if you have clients in Indiana, Ohio, and as far away as Detroit, like how many days in order to meet your improvement plan, the goals in your improvement plan, how many days per week would you have had to sort of, I mean, maybe the best way to put it is to give up parenting time. Like how much contact would you have with your children if you traveled according to what would have fulfilled the qualifications of the plan? [01:07:54] Mrs. Dreyer: To fulfill the obligations to the plan, I would potentially only see my kids four days a month. [01:08:01] Speaker 3: A month? [01:08:01] Mrs. Dreyer: So four days a month because she wanted weekends still. So what, I get every other weekend, two days? [01:08:08] Speaker 3: Okay. So you would have been traveling Monday through Friday in order to meet that plan. [01:08:13] Speaker 4: Correct. [01:08:14] Speaker 3: And even if, I suppose, even if, say the plaintiff was willing to give you her weekend time, that would still only leave you eight days a month? [01:08:24] Speaker 4: Correct. [01:08:25] Speaker 3: All right. And would there be any time when you travel, are you able to be home for dinner? No. Are you able to drop them off at school? [01:08:34] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [01:08:35] Speaker 3: Can you do anything during the week, Monday through Friday, if you traveled according to the plan? [01:08:40] Mrs. Dreyer: No. [01:08:41] Speaker 3: All right. So there was really no arrangement that could be compatible with both working according to what they were requesting and meet really any minimal level of maintenance of parenting time. [01:08:55] Mrs. Dreyer: That is correct. [01:08:56] Speaker 3: All right. And then, but that is from their perspective, would that be accurate? [01:09:02] Mrs. Dreyer: Correct. [01:09:02] Speaker 3: In other words, you thought you could do your job without meeting that level of travel. [01:09:09] Mrs. Dreyer: I did do my job without meeting that level of travel. But as my CEO explained to me, performance is measured on different things other than just hitting your revenue goals, which I disagree with. But that was his purview when agreeing to put me on the pit. [01:09:26] Speaker 3: So his assessment. [01:09:27] Mrs. Dreyer: It was his assessment. Yes. [01:09:28] Speaker 3: All right. I think that's it. [01:09:34] Speaker 2: Ms. Schultz, any follow-up? No, thank you. All right. Thank you. Any further witnesses on the issue of property and spousal support in financial terms? [01:09:47] Speaker 3: I probably know, but I guess I would just make a renewed motion to at least reserve some aspect of, because this new issue with regards to his employment and most recent termination is so premature, you know, I've not been able to provide evidence that I might have otherwise been able to, you know, provide or call to support my client's position because this literally happened on Friday. So to the extent, I guess I would just renew the motion that even with the testimony that has come to light, there could be additional things that would support or clarify the position with regards to Vector's, I guess, side of this story. And so I would ask the court to take notice of that. Ms. Schultz? [01:10:39] Speaker 6: I would just ask that the court deny any requests for reserving those issues. I mean, we're here for trial today. Mr. Dreyer's indicated on multiple occasions today that he kind of saw the writing on the wall at some point. And now he's claiming that, you know, three days before trial, he's lost his job. And as a result of that, you know, Ms. Dreyer should, and frankly, the children, should financially suffer because of it. So I would just renew the statement that I made earlier and ask that the court deny that. [01:11:09] Speaker 2: All right. Well, I am going to deny the request. We are, this is trial and the court has to have some finality in this situation. And so the court will make a decision based on the proofs that are presented today. All right, so I guess we'll move on to the custody and parenting time issues. Ms. Schultz? [01:11:36] Speaker 6: Thank you. I would call Carly Dreyer again. [01:11:39] Speaker 2: Okay. Ms. Dreyer, you're still under oath. [01:11:45] Speaker 7: Yes, ma'am. [01:11:49] Speaker 6: Ms. Schultz? Okay. Thank you. Ms. Dreyer, and I just want to remind you, we are live recording or live streaming this. So just try to use the boys' initials when you can. Prior to the separation, what was your primary role in the household with the children? [01:12:12] Speaker 7: I have been the stay-at-home mother and their primary caretaker since my oldest was born in 2019. [01:12:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:12:21] Speaker 6: And what does that include? [01:12:26] Speaker 7: It includes scheduling their daily activities, taking them to and from doctor's appointments, extracurricular activities, school, preparing meals, grocery shopping, making sure they're fed, making sure they're bathed, making sure they have clothes on their backs, making sure they're emotionally taken care of as well, loved on, nurtured, et cetera, et cetera. [01:12:53] Speaker 6: What was Mr. Dreyer's role prior to separation? [01:12:57] Speaker 7: He was the primary provider for our family. [01:13:04] Speaker 6: As far as, I guess, one-on-one with the boys, what did his relationship with them look like before you guys separated? [01:13:16] Speaker 7: Jacob didn't really take the boys' places if he spent one-on-one time with them. It was either in the house or outside of the house. The one-on-one times that he would spend with them would be usually technology-related with screen times, either iPads or video games or something with Pokemon cards related. But very, very rarely would he take them outside of the house and go do an activity with them. [01:13:42] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:13:43] Speaker 6: We've talked about pretty extensively about Mr. Dreyer's travel for his employment when we're talking about property division, but I want to talk about it in regards to the children. Mr. Dreyer has always traveled, has he? [01:14:04] Speaker 7: That is correct. So even when he's saying he didn't, his position with Johnson & Johnson was in Muskegon. So even though he wasn't staying overnight, he was still gone from 6:00 a.m. until sometimes 8:00 p.m. at night. So still wasn't around to see the kids or be a part of their lives. [01:14:24] Speaker 6: Okay. And was that every day during the week? Yes. Okay. If he left at 6:00 a.m., were the kids awake at that point? [01:14:34] Speaker 7: Sometimes, sometimes not. Rarely. I mean, not a lot of the time, but. [01:14:41] Speaker 6: Okay. Were they typically in bed before he got home or what were they doing when he arrived home on most days? [01:14:50] Speaker 7: If we were lucky, he would make it in time for dinner or at the tail end of dinner and maybe be there for bedtime and nighttime routines. But majority of the time it was after they were in bed. [01:15:04] Speaker 6: Had you and Mr. Dreyer ever discussed his travel schedule when he worked with Johnson & Johnson at all? Like whether it was working for the family, was it not working? What did that look like? [01:15:17] Speaker 7: I expressed my concerns about the travel after we had our first child in 2019. We moved out here in 2017 and the travel for those two years got to me more once we had our first baby. And when I would express that, his response was usually that that's what his job was. That's what he had to do. And he can't get another job that's going to be providing as much money as what he's doing. And hopefully it won't be for forever. That was always our thing was hopefully [01:15:50] Speaker 6: there will be an end in sight with the traveling. But in fact, that wasn't the case because he was [01:15:57] Speaker 7: then employed by Vector, right? He was then employed by Acutis, which was travel again, about 100% travel. And then after that was Vector. Okay. What did his travel look like when he was with Acutis? Again, he'd be gone on Sunday evenings, sometimes not home until Fridays. And when he did come home on Fridays, it was always in the evening. It was never in the day, in the morning. It was always late at night. So he technically was a weekend dad for majority of my kids' lives. [01:16:33] Speaker 6: And did that carry into when he became employed by Vector? Yes. Okay. And when he was with Vector during the marriage, had you asked him to find something that was more sustainable as far as not being gone so much? Yes. Okay. And what was his response? [01:16:48] Speaker 7: Same as before, that he has to provide for our family and that that job is a good job that makes a lot of money. So he's not going to be able to find another job that has less travel making that kind of money. So it was kind of like choosing, do we want to have a good income and have him be gone more or have a less income and have him be home more? And even though I was reluctant, we ended up having him stay traveling because we had kids and bills to pay. Okay. And so from your perspective, was there [01:17:25] Speaker 6: an agreement that it was better for him to be traveling and earning a good income for the upbringing of the children as opposed to being home more? Yes. Okay. Talk to me about post separation. So you and Mr. Dreyer separated in August of 2025. What did parenting time look like from then on? In August 2025, I was [01:17:50] Speaker 7: actually not able to see my kids for about nine days. Jacob didn't allow me to see them no matter how many times I tried or my mother tried. Um, that's when we ended up going to court to have an emergency, um, custody order in place. And that's when it became, um, it used to be a certain way and now it's changed. So a year ago it was, I had them on Mondays and then they went with him on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. And then they would come back to me on a Thursday for that weekend or wait, am I doing this wrong? I might be messing up on the custody. Let me just go with what's currently in order. Um, so currently I have a Monday nights and then he gets them Tuesday, Wednesday nights. I get them Thursday and then every other, it used to be, he had them Wednesday, Thursday, excuse me. That's what it is. Um, and that's, what's been in place ever since is every other weekend and he gets them two nights [01:18:50] Speaker 6: a week. Okay. Um, and from your perspective, how has that schedule been going for, um, the children? [01:18:59] Speaker 7: Um, for the children, it was very rough at first, um, majority because they're not used to spending their weekday time and school time and, um, their, their weekday time with their father. Usually it's me taking them to the appointments, me getting them ready for school, me getting them fed and everything like that. So that was a little bit of an adjustment for my kids. Um, and then I also anticipated him coming to me often to cut his parenting time shorter because of work. And that's what happened a lot over the last year. I had to pick them up early or switch a day or take a day or take a weekend because of work, because of work, which is very similar to how things were in our marriage. Um, but I, I did end up helping out on his end with a lot of custody situations. Okay. Um, [01:19:50] Speaker 6: do you, are you opposed to having the kids more often? No. Okay. Um, and in fact, is that what you've been asking the court to order is that the kids are with you more often? So there's not so much [01:20:01] Speaker 7: back and forth. Yes. And I also worry about the mental stability of my children. Um, I often have them come home from their visits with their father and they're repeating things about our divorce situation that I think is very inappropriate. They should not be around those kinds of conversations. Um, I think they should be protected from a lot of this. Um, Jacob has used bad language about me to my children, um, in front of me. So I can't even imagine what he's saying behind my back. Um, and so it's, it's not just the physical, but it's also the mental for them. I, I fear of what their environment is when they're around him. And Jacob also has not demonstrated that he can have them alone. Um, every exchange during the week, his father, Jeff is present and stays with the boys. And then every time he has them on the weekends, he drives two plus hours to Wixom to his parents house and spend the 48 hours that he has with his kids there. And then comes back. Um, he hasn't shown that he can create a stable environment for the kids in his own apartment, that he can have a job, raise them by himself without help from his parents. Um, and I think that the kids have a lot more stability in my household. It's their normal routines. I don't need extra help. I've been doing this for seven years and I've got it down pat now. Okay. Um, [01:21:26] Speaker 6: when you say that, uh, his father has been Mr. Dreyer's father has been participating in parenting time exchanges, um, in from your understanding is Mr. Dreyer traveling during that time or is he home? [01:21:41] Speaker 7: Um, there's been a few occasions where his father has been there for the exchange and Jacob has not been present. Um, I'm not sure if he's traveling or what, because their stories haven't matched up between Jeff and Jacob. Um, but I believe he is home with the children with his father present. I don't believe that he's traveling and using him as childcare. Okay. Um, [01:22:08] Speaker 6: who has, uh, disciplined the children who has primarily been responsible for disciplining the children throughout the, throughout the marriage and then post-separation. Um, okay. And, um, that same post-separation as well. Um, [01:22:24] Speaker 7: Paul post-separation is a little bit more difficult since I don't have them all the time. So I would probably say the 60, 40, 50, 50, what that's been. Cause I only have a bad amount of time. [01:22:34] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, and you were talking a little bit about it previously, but do you feel like the, the children have appropriate guidance in both homes? No. Okay. And expand on that. [01:22:45] Speaker 7: Um, for example, I do not allow YouTube in my household. Um, my kids have gotten on YouTube in front of me before and go to scary videos, horror videos, things that are inappropriate language, inappropriate pictures, things like that. Um, so I have banned that from my household. I have, um, strict rules on my screen time. I don't allow them to just watch TV all day. Um, in Jacob's apartment, I understand that my six year old and five year old have a TV in their bedroom to themselves right now, and that they watch YouTube, um, without any supervision in their room. I would assume that this is probably while he's working or at night before bed and stuff. Um, and then they repeat a lot of things when they come back home, they repeat bad words, they repeat horror villains and things that they've seen. And then they they're scared. And then they're saying they don't want to sleep alone. They want to sleep with me because they're scared of these things. Cause they saw it at dads and it's YouTube. Um, and again, I just, I, I worry about the mental state of Jacob a lot. So I worry about how he is, um, he has a little bit of a temper and he has a short fuse. So I know that that can rock him sometimes when he has three kids needing things. And so I worry about his short fuse [01:24:02] Speaker 6: at times when he's around the kids all the time. Okay. Um, were any of these behaviors such as the children being scared of things that they were seeing, uh, present before, um, they were split households? No. Okay. Um, do you have any concerns with the way that Mr. Dreyer disciplines the children? [01:24:21] Speaker 7: Yes. Okay. And what are those concerns? Um, as I just stated, he does have a temper. He does have a short fuse, um, which means that when he starts getting emotional or uncomfortable, there's not really a ramp up. Um, it just, it, it doesn't escalate fast. It just hits. So a lot of that looks like just screaming and yelling at the children. Um, it can be ripping things out of their hands. I've seen him grab them and drag them around the house before, um, just last night during our exchange, he was upset and screamed at our kids to get out of the car, get in mom's car now, and then ripped the iPad out of my first son's hand and threw it in my car. And that's, that's the goodbye he's giving my kids. And that's what they're left with when they're going from dads to my house. And I worry about, again, what's going on behind closed doors when I'm seeing it right in front of me. Okay. Um, where do you [01:25:24] Speaker 6: believe that the children seek, um, their love and guidance from? From myself. Okay. Um, do you believe that you and Mr. Dreyer give the children similar age appropriate attention during your respective parenting time? No. Okay. Um, and I know you're currently unemployed. You're looking for employment. Um, currently I assume you're widely available to parent the children, correct? Correct. [01:25:51] Speaker 7: Okay. Um, what does this look like when you become employed? Um, I have my mother who is a resource for child care. Um, I've also been made aware that if I need daycare, there are assistance programs that, um, you can reach out to, to help for expenses for childcare as well. So I'm going to look into those options as well. Okay. Um, are the kids in school yet? Um, I, they are not in school, but they are, I finally got my middle child officially enrolled in kindergarten. So they are, [01:26:26] Speaker 6: they start on August 26th. Okay. Um, and are they, um, in any extracurriculars where you're currently [01:26:35] Speaker 7: living? Yes. What, what things do they do? Uh, currently my second child, uh, DJD is in basketball camp this week. Um, and then he has his pre or his kindergarten enrollment tomorrow to go look at the school. And then my, my oldest son, DRD is starting this, um, ACGR, uh, Michigan football academy soccer program. And that starts August 18th. Um, so, and then again, my second is going to start a, um, a gymnastics ninja program for his activity in the fall. So we got a lot of stuff starting up. [01:27:16] Speaker 6: Yeah. Awesome. Um, what has been, if anything, Mr. Dreyer's involvement with the children's, um, I understand they haven't been in school, but as far as their extracurriculars go. [01:27:27] Speaker 7: Um, this past spring, both of my children were in football and, um, T-ball and Jacob did not attend a single T-ball game, not even when it was on his weekend. Um, he actually would lie to my kids and say it was canceled or something and not take them to T-ball. Um, and then for flag football, he attended the very last game for them. So he has not been supportive. He has not been present. And when I've asked to sign them up and for funds to sign my kids up for extracurricular activities, [01:28:05] Speaker 6: he responds, no, that he doesn't agree to it. Okay. Um, has he agreed to any, um, extracurricular activities for the kids? No. Okay. Um, who makes the children's doctor's appointments? I do. Okay. And do you communicate those appointments to Mr. Dreyer? Yes. Okay. Does he attend them? No. Did he attend them during the marriage? [01:28:35] Speaker 7: Once in a blue moon, if he was home from work and not traveling, then yes, he would attend. Well, it wasn't us doing it together. It would rather be me taking the kids and him staying home with the [01:28:47] Speaker 6: ones that didn't need to attend. Okay. Has he ever taken the children to appointments on his own? [01:28:54] Speaker 7: I think maybe a handful of times, maybe five appointments in the matter of seven years, [01:28:59] Speaker 6: he's done completely on his own. Okay. Has he trusted you to make the decisions, medical decisions, anything like that for the children? Yes. Okay. Um, and how has health care for the children been managed since you guys separated? Um, I have paid co-pays when I go to [01:29:21] Speaker 7: the offices for when they're required for me or for the kids. Um, and other than that, I haven't been able to pay the medical bills. I've just been waiting on those that have been billed to me. Have you [01:29:33] Speaker 6: scheduled any appointments, um, and asked Mr. Dreyer to take the children to them since you've been separated? Yes. Okay. And has he taken them to those appointments? No. On one occasion, he missed their [01:29:45] Speaker 7: dentist appointments. Um, and on another occasion, he missed a doctor appointment. Okay. And approximately, [01:29:52] Speaker 6: when were those appointments supposed to occur that he didn't take them to? I believe they were both in July. Okay. July of this year? 2026. Yes, that's correct. Okay. And did you, um, reach out to him [01:30:06] Speaker 7: regarding those missed appointments? Yes. And what was his response? Um, his response was that it didn't [01:30:13] Speaker 6: work with his schedule. Okay. When you initially scheduled the appointments, did you do so in consideration [01:30:21] Speaker 7: of his schedule or in conjunction with him? Um, so these appointments were made a long time ago. They weren't just made like a month in advance. They're, you know, the wellness checkups that happen every three to six months. Same with the dentist that happened every six months. So I attempted to make them on my day. Wednesdays used to be one of my days. Um, and so when those appointments ended up being on a Wednesday, it was Jacob's day because our custody changed. And, um, that's when I told him that he needed to be in charge of it. So I initially meant for him to be on my days for me to be in charge of it, but because of custody changes, it went on his days and he wasn't able to make it work with his schedule. [01:31:03] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, did you ever come to find out whether he was working during those times and that's why the [01:31:10] Speaker 7: children missed the appointments? Um, one of the situations he told me he was working or had a meeting. Um, but then my children told me that he was having a play date at the pool that afternoon instead. Um, and then another situation, I just was told it just didn't work with his schedule. So I didn't know if that was referring to work or something else. Okay. Um, have you attempted to [01:31:38] Speaker 6: make major decisions with the children such as related to education, childcare, medical, anything like that with Mr. Dreyer in the past year? Yes. Okay. Um, and can you tell me about some of those conversations? [01:31:52] Speaker 7: Um, in January of this last year or December, 2025 rather, um, he did come to me saying that his boss was expressing the need for him to travel more. I offered up my time during the week and said, I would be more than happy to take the children during the day so that we do not have to pay for childcare. Um, he still took it upon himself to enroll my middle child in childcare and pay for that, even though I was willing to help out. Um, oh, I'm sorry. My, that was my third child. He was enrolling my, my two year old in childcare. And then he called the school of my second child and tried to change his schooling without my permission to make him be in full day schooling instead of half days. I was not privy to this information until I got emails. Um, and so I had to put a stop to both of those because I was, I'm not willing to, um, change my kids schooling. And then, um, after that, my middle child is going into kindergarten this year. And in order to be enrolled in kindergarten, you need their birth certificates. You need vaccination records, a bunch of documents to turn in. I did not have my children's birth certificates. They were taken, um, after we separated. Um, I asked for them over and over and over and Jacob would not give them to me, even though I mentioned it was about enrolling our son in kindergarten. Um, his response was, we don't know where we're going to be in this fall. So why would we even enroll them there? Let's just wait to see what happens. My opinion would be to enroll him and try to ensure stability, not to wait it out and uproot them. Um, but yeah, he, he was not willing to give me the birth certificate. So I had to pay for them at the Kent County office and get them mailed to me. Okay. And when was that? Um, this was two weeks ago. Okay. Um, [01:33:59] Speaker 6: okay. When you try to communicate things to, uh, Mr. Dreyer, is there any sort of meaningful [01:34:09] Speaker 7: conversation back and forth between the two of you? No, he's very hostile, um, belittling, condescending, aggressive, um, even having simple conversations. I met with very, a lot of disrespect. [01:34:26] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, I'm going to pull up, um, exhibit 18, which I believe there's a stipulation to admit. Um, let me know when you can see this. I can see it. Okay. Um, and how do the two of you communicate? [01:34:49] Speaker 7: Um, we have been communicating through our family wizard, um, for the last year. [01:34:56] Speaker 6: Okay. And is that what this is? Yes. Okay. Um, and on June 17th of this year, it looks like you identify a scheduled dentist appointment for, um, DJ. Is that accurate? [01:35:10] Speaker 3: Um, also not to interrupt, but we're talking about the kids again. So, and especially since they're on the two of you, uh, on the screen, um, if we, um, if we want. Okay. Thank you. [01:35:21] Speaker 6: Um, Ms. Dreyer, um, can you identify, um, what this exhibit is? Yes. Okay. Um, and what is it? [01:35:32] Speaker 7: Uh, road rash. [01:35:34] Speaker 6: Um, and is June 21, 2025, um, the accurate date as you recall this photos to be taken? [01:35:44] Speaker 7: Yes. [01:35:44] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, and what happened? We're looking at a series of what appeared to be bruises and road rash. What occurred, um, in this incident that led to you taking these photos? [01:35:57] Speaker 7: Um, the first part of those pictures is one instance until the shoulder that's from one instance. And then the second set of pictures are from August during the domestic violence situation charge. So till keep going a little more. That's the last one. This one starting here is from an August situation. Okay. August, 2025. Um, that was August 1st. Okay. What happened? Um, that was when Jacob and I were trying to get our kids to sleep. He was getting heightened. He was getting emotional. It had been after he had been drinking that day. I, he went over to our then. Um, I think Duke was, um, excuse me. Um, I think DAD was only 15 months old. So, uh, our 15 month old at that time and picked him up while he was arguing with me and yelling at me. I asked him to give me my son. Um, he refused. I reminded him that during these episodes, he is supposed to not be around the children and leave the environment. He refused to do so. When I reached for my baby, he pushed me back. We began, um, a physical altercation, um, which ultimately led to him to me. Um, and then the cops were eventually called. And again, I was the one who [01:37:21] Speaker 6: got arrested and went to jail that night. Um, were you ever, uh, charged with anything or convicted of anything, I guess, um, following this incident? No. Okay. I'm gonna object to the compound question. [01:37:37] Speaker 3: Cause I know that answer, um, doesn't respond. So objection to the compound question. Yeah, [01:37:43] Speaker 6: I'll re rephrase. Were you ever charged with anything, Ms. Dreyer? Oh, charged. Yes. Okay. And what were you charged with? Domestic violence. Okay. Were you ever convicted of domestic violence? No. Okay. What happened to those charges? Um, they were dropped. Okay. [01:38:05] Speaker 7: Um, that was the one. Sorry. What was that? Jacob was the one who actually dropped them. Okay. Um, [01:38:16] Speaker 6: I'm going to show you exhibit 21 now. Um, and can you tell us what these photos are? Um, that was from [01:38:24] Speaker 7: a night back in 2023 where we had a very bad fight. Um, both of our children were sleeping during this. You can see my oldest son's door is right across the hallway, right there. Um, during this, Jacob was in, came upstairs, closed the door and then plowed through it, uh, using his body and then screamed woo. That felt good. And then he went outside and proceeded to go in the garage and destroy more property. [01:38:59] Speaker 6: Um, exhibit 22. Can you identify this? Yes. Um, and what is this? Um, this is, [01:39:09] Speaker 7: I believe this was the day when, um, I told him again, that we were not going to reconcile. He wanted, he was supposed to get the boys, I believe this day, and he was starting to go erratic. As you can see, the numerous calls and videos while I have our children. Um, so I was telling him if he's not able to be present for them mentally, I can keep them. And he ultimately told me to keep them because he was not well. And then within an hour later, he decided he actually wanted them and was trying to reach me again to, um, get ahold of me for the kids. Okay. And this was in January of this year? [01:39:50] Speaker 6: Yes. Okay. Is that erratic behavior that you were just talking about? Is that, um, is that an ongoing occurrence? [01:39:59] Speaker 7: How often does that happen? It's, he's very unpredictable. Um, it happens on the fly. I, like I said, it's unpredictable. Okay. Um, do you have ongoing [01:40:12] Speaker 6: concerns, um, of Mr. Dreyer's, um, violence? Yes. Okay. Um, do you have ongoing concerns for Mr. Dreyer's mental health state? Yes. Um, and do you believe that it, um, has affected the children in the past? Yes. Okay. Do you believe that there is a strong likelihood it would affect them in the future? Yes. Okay. Um, do you have any restrictions on your ability to exercise parenting time? No. Okay. Um, and as far as legal custody goes, um, regarding, you know, the right to make major decisions for the children, um, what are you asking the court? How are you asking the court [01:40:58] Speaker 7: to allocate that between you and Mr. Dreyer? Um, I would, I was hoping that we would be able to split it up, but in this situation, I'm not able to have any co-parenting conversations with him. So that makes me very concerned about how the future would look with big situations and big decisions. If he's not able to help me with birth certificates and getting them to get our child enrolled in kindergarten, what other situations are there going to be pushed back on? Um, so in this situation, it makes me feel most comfortable to be the one that makes those decisions legally for our children. [01:41:36] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, in fact, have you been able to successfully jointly make any major decisions for the children since the two of you have been separated? No. Okay. Did you primarily make major decisions for the children during the marriage? Yes. Okay. And do you believe it would negatively impact the kids if, um, there were to be, um, an order of joint legal custody? Yes. Okay. Um, regarding physical custody, [01:42:03] Speaker 7: are you asking for sole physical custody as well? Um, that situation depends on where he plans on staying. If Jacob doesn't plan on staying in Byron Center, I don't understand how he could have custody because that's where we're going to stay. That's where our children belong. Um, so if he's not in the city, I don't understand how custody would work with that. Um, but if he's in Byron Center, then I would say every other weekend right now until he can demonstrate that he's a responsible parent who's able to show up and, um, for basic parental needs before he's awarded more custody as well [01:42:39] Speaker 6: as mental health checks too. Okay. Um, and we'll talk about some, you know, conditions on, on parenting time, but, um, why do you believe that, um, him having every other weekend with the children is in their best interest, um, but him having time during the week is not? Um, like I said, [01:42:58] Speaker 7: the kids need stability right now. Um, and every day they, the school year is very routine. You go to bed, you wake up same time, same place. Um, kids have their, they're going to have different activities during the week. I know when they are, I take them to and from it's something that I can, I've already been doing. I can focus on Jacob. Again, I don't know what his work schedule is going to look like. So if he were to have them during the week and he's working, who's going to be the one who takes care of them and does that, that stuff. Okay. Um, and do you, are you asking the [01:43:33] Speaker 6: court to impose any conditions on parenting time? You just mentioned mental health checks. Um, [01:43:38] Speaker 7: can you explain what you mean by that? Um, yeah, I don't know how this works. I don't know how, what can be ordered. Um, but I think that there needs to be checkups that he's being signed off by personnel that they think that he's in a good state of mind because what I have been experiencing over the last year is not what a sound state person of a sound state of mind person is. They, he's been very aggressive and very difficult to communicate with. So I'd like somebody to maybe have, be able to monitor it in some way where I can ensure that he's being on medication or that he's seeing a doctor and getting his checkups and that they believe that he's on track and [01:44:21] Speaker 6: doing whatever needs to be done. Okay. Um, are you asking for any orders regarding substance abuse during parenting time? No. Okay. Um, and is there anything else that the court could order to make, um, parenting time, um, safe and consistent as possible between Mr. Dreyer and the children? [01:44:46] Speaker 7: Um, I think there should be a limit on the range of where my kids can go. Um, I don't think it's fair for them every other weekend to be traveling to Wixom, uh, four plus hours in a car when it's only 48 hours. I don't think that that's fair. So I think that there should be a distance where you can take the children on your parenting time, unless it's approved beforehand. Um, and I also think that should he have custody that we are responding to our messages about the children in a timely manner, because there's been several situations where I've messaged him and I don't get a response sometimes for over a day. Um, so I think there also needs to be something about you need to communicate with each [01:45:32] Speaker 6: other in X amount of time before a decision is made. Um, is there a specific time frame that you're proposing? [01:45:44] Speaker 7: I would think within a two hour time frame is fair, given an emergency situation too. [01:45:50] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, let's talk about, um, child support. Um, we've talked about Mr. Dreyer's income. Um, I'm just going to ask you directly at this point, do you believe that Mr. Dreyer has, um, has foregone his employment to avoid paying, um, more in child support? Yes. Okay. And why do you believe that? Um, the [01:46:18] Speaker 7: control that he's exercised over the last year regarding our finances. Um, he mentioned previously that he didn't want me to have access to funds on my credit card. So to me, this is again, just a way of me not having access to funds. Okay. Um, based on, I'm going to, um, [01:46:46] Speaker 6: pull up exhibit 24. I don't believe there's any children's names on this. Let me just double check. No, we're good. Um, you and I were able to run a child support calculation, correct? Yes. Okay. And is this based on you having $0 of income at the current time? Yes. Okay. Um, and the figure in there for Mr. Dreyer is $228,000 and $228,620,000. Is that accurate? Yes. Okay. And is that the average of the incomes we discussed earlier from 2023 and 2024, just based on the fact that we don't know what his 2025 income has been? Yes. Okay. Um, and the 52 overnights, is that based on your request for the court to order him have parenting time every other weekend from Friday to Sunday? Yes. Okay. And is either parent currently paying any child care expenses? No. Okay. Um, and based on that, are you asking that the court order child support, um, pursuant to the Michigan child support formula? Yes. Okay. And is that amount, from your understanding, you're paying $3,812 a month? Yes. Is there anything else you feel is beneficial for the court to understand in entering, um, orders that are in your children's best interests? Um, no, I don't think so. Okay. Um, and then real quick, um, there, I think we've now agreed and correct me if I'm wrong, but is there now an agreement that Mr. Dreyer has paid, um, $2,039 per month from January, 2026 through July, 2026, correct? Correct. Okay. You're asking the court to order him pay child support retroactive to the date of filing in August of 2025, less credit for what was paid? Correct. Okay. Thank you. I have no other questions for Ms. Dreyer. [01:48:59] Speaker 3: Ms. Wolfram. Um, is there any possibility, I was thinking, um, maybe a 15 to 20 minute, first of all, we need another comfort break as far as, um, needing to stand up and get circulation, but secondly, if I could have a couple of minutes, I might be able to make the second half more efficient, if I could get my exhibits kind of lined up for, um, for rebuttal, if that works. Yes, [01:49:20] Speaker 2: we need them labeled with letters. Sure. So, okay. Right. Um, good afternoon. Again, this is the matter of Dreyer versus Dreyer, case number 2507026DM. We're back on the record after taking a recess. The same [01:49:34] Speaker 3: parties are present. Um, and, um, Ms. Wolfram. Okay. Um, start off with a little bit of the basics. So you've been sharing parenting time since August of 2025. So since the separation, um, I guess let's first talk about, so there was nine days where the children were in exclusive care of Mr. Dreyer. Is that right? Correct. And then after custody and parenting time got sorted, at least for a temporary basis, you guys have shared, um, at least a few days each per week. Would that be fair? Correct. And, um, throughout, that would be consistent even with those couple of changes, um, would be pretty consistent from August until present. Correct. So around a year? Yes. Okay. Um, and, uh, during that time has, uh, you, you did testify, I think, to some times that you thought you would have to make up for pick up early on parenting time. Is that right? Yes. But with regards to say amount of overnights, how many overnights, um, has, [01:50:49] Speaker 7: in your opinion, has Mr. Dreyer failed to exercise? Um, at least two weekends on his time this past year alone due to work. Okay. So that's four nights at least that I can say off the top of my head on the [01:51:08] Speaker 3: weekends. All right. And we're talking about, like I said, the time period of a year. So August to August, right? [01:51:13] Speaker 7: Okay. Um, okay. If you're saying in the time period of a year, I'd probably say there's two more other ones in the last, from 2025 to 2026. So six total on weekends. Okay. And, um, was there a negotiation to [01:51:31] Speaker 3: switch those weekends or he just said, I don't want them this weekend? No, he gave me, um, I think it's [01:51:37] Speaker 7: right right of first refusal to allow me if I wanted to have them instead. Okay. And did he make it [01:51:44] Speaker 3: clear? Like, could he have provided care for them if you chose not to exercise that? Yes. Okay. Um, for, um, let's talk about legal custody really briefly. You said that you have not been able to make joint legal custody decisions at all since the time of separation. Is that a fair statement of your testimony? Yes. Okay. Um, speaking of those, uh, things though, you, um, did your, is it your testimony that you registered your child for kindergarten? Yes. Did Mr. Dreyer agree to that? No. So you did that without his agreement? Yes. Do you think that, uh, that is a legal custody decision? Yes, but I also [01:52:28] Speaker 7: believe that it's more important to ensure that my child is enrolled for kindergarten four weeks prior [01:52:34] Speaker 3: to the school starting. Okay. More important than the court's order to share legal custody? [01:52:41] Speaker 7: In that situation, I think that I made the right move to enroll my child into kindergarten. All right. [01:52:48] Speaker 3: So let's compare that to the enrollment in daycare. Was that going to require you to have the children, have the, um, your child attend daycare on your time? I'm sorry. Can you repeat that? So I said, let's compare that to your testimony about Mr. Dreyer's decision to enroll, uh, or to begin daycare for your youngest child. Was he going to, was he, was his decision to obtain daycare for his parenting time going to cause you to re like require you to use daycare on your time? No, but, um, it did take a hit to [01:53:22] Speaker 7: our finances, which was why I offered my time instead versus having him go to a daycare and spending [01:53:28] Speaker 3: thousands of dollars. Right. So it was a financial decision. It didn't impact your legal decision. Correct. Okay. And is that the same for your middle child? Um, when you said that you weren't, uh, in agreement with changing his schooling, it just expanded the time he would be allowed to be at [01:53:46] Speaker 7: school, correct? Um, it does change his schooling because that changes the whole curriculum that preschool is based off of. It's if it's a half a day of school versus a whole day of school that changes his classroom, his teacher and his whole curriculum. So it does impact him a lot. It would have been in the same school. But that, yes, he would have been in the same school. You are [01:54:08] Speaker 3: correct. And he, um, was that communicated through, um, your, our family wizard? No, it was not [01:54:15] Speaker 7: communicated. I actually got an email from, um, the administrator in charge of the school asking about what we were looking for to change my middle son schooling. And that's when I found out that he was [01:54:30] Speaker 3: doing that. All right. So that our family wizard message was not a part of a discussion regarding [01:54:35] Speaker 7: that enrollment. Um, that one I believe was regarding my, our third child in daycare. Okay. And those are not the two, they're not related. Those two. One is referring to daycare and one is, um, changing my other child's schooling schedule. So they're two separate. Um, but as for the purpose of that, that was so that [01:54:56] Speaker 3: he could, um, travel on his parenting time rate. It was so that he could maintain his job obligations [01:55:02] Speaker 7: without giving up parenting time. I believe so. Yes. Okay. I did offer for my time to be present so that our finances didn't take a hit in that situation though. Sure. Um, okay. So also you indicated, [01:55:21] Speaker 3: I think that, um, there is something regarding the kindergarten, um, enrollment for your middle child that's to take place even tomorrow. Is that what I heard? Yes. It's kindergarten screening. And did you [01:55:35] Speaker 7: encourage your dryer about that? No, because he wasn't interested in enrolling him into kindergarten. So I just took it upon myself to be in charge of it. Okay. And you understand there's an obligation [01:55:49] Speaker 3: of our family wizard to share that information between the parties. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Was there a way other than messaging to convey that information that, that that was available, [01:56:00] Speaker 7: like to place it on the calendar, for instance? Um, yes, we've never used the calendar. So that would be a first time for me to use that. Um, however, he's known since May. Jacob's been aware since May that I've been trying to enroll, um, our middle son into kindergarten. So it should not be a shock that he's attending, uh, kindergarten screening tomorrow when school starts in three weeks. [01:56:29] Speaker 3: Right. It's not, uh, you know, whether he knows about the information isn't my question. The question is, [01:56:34] Speaker 7: he didn't agree, right? No, he did not agree. And he also didn't ask further questions about him. So that's why I did not share information. Okay. [01:56:47] Speaker 3: All right. Um, with regards to appointments, um, you stated that he's taken the children to sort of a handful appointments as higher testimony. Yes. Um, so he wouldn't know the children's doctor. [01:57:05] Speaker 7: Um, I'm sure he knows the children's doctor. Would he be up to date on their medical information? [01:57:11] Speaker 3: Um, probably not. Did he, um, has he, did he and you discuss during the time you were married if the kids went to an appointment? Is that something you talked about? Yes. All right. And, um, would you find it acceptable if he would have said, you know what, I'm going to take the day off work instead, um, and, and take him to their appointments? Um, yes. Okay. Did you discuss that as a fine, as an option? No. Okay. Um, what other, so with regards to major decisions, you said you've been unable to make them together since the time of separation. What other decisions besides the enrollment, which you've taken [01:57:55] Speaker 7: upon yourself, um, have been pending for the children? Um, any extracurricular activities over the summer? I wanted our kids to be enrolled in some summer camps. They've taken an interest into specific sports. So I wanted our kids to practice some of that and see if they were going to hone in on a sport. Um, that is something that me and Jacob have agreed on since we had children. We did agree that we wanted our children to be in an activity and for them to hone in on one. Um, so when I approached him about signing our kids up for those over the summer, I was met with again, no, because he said [01:58:32] Speaker 3: we didn't know where we would be. All right. Um, so, and, and you did in fact say that you signed your kids up for extracurriculars despite Jacob saying no. Is that right? Yes. All right. I believe that [01:58:45] Speaker 7: that is more of a detriment to my kids to have them ask for a camp or some enrichment activities and to be told no because their dad won't sign them up. I'm willing to take the shot for that. [01:59:02] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, you did testify that in order to afford those summer camps and things you have sold belongings to make up the shortfall for their enrollment. Is that true? Yes. All right. And you sold, um, also Jacob's belongings, right? Yes. All right. And that was despite the gun, the court having placed an order, um, that you not do that. Yes. I also let him know [01:59:34] Speaker 7: months in advance that I had belongings of his that I wanted to give him. And he told me no, because he he didn't have a place for them. So after them sitting around in my need of finances, I decided to use that as an opportunity to regain finances since he didn't seem like it was, um, important for him to [01:59:53] Speaker 3: get over a year span. And in fact, that is your attitude for the court's orders, right? When they don't conform with what you want, you just choose to move forward without adhering to them. Is that about [02:00:04] Speaker 7: accurate? I don't believe that. I believe that I've been working in my kids' best interest over the year to provide for them and to make sure that they're well taken care of and, um, that I'm being a good [02:00:14] Speaker 3: mom. Okay. Is there, um, an order? You acknowledge that there's a temporary order in this, um, case, right? Yes. All right. And does that temporary order prevent, uh, the introduction of romantic third party parties to your children? Yes. All right. And did you choose to go forward with introduction of a romantic third party into your children's lives? I do not have a romantic partner. I have a friend. All right. And is this friend male? Yes. All right. And do you, um, do you kiss your male friends? Um, no. So you have not, um, kissed Mr. Ozmanajic? Um, not around my children. I have not. All right. So not around your children, but the answer is yes then? Yes. All right. And so then he's not really just a friend. He's a romantic partner. Is that right? I think that's up for debate. Okay. The relationships, but. Okay. So did you view the court's order as that you should not introduce romantic partners that are up for debate? Is that your interpretation? No, I haven't had him around my children. So he hasn't been carrying your children in your driveway? Um, he has before. [02:01:35] Speaker 7: He has also. And then there was a situation in May, um, where I had strep throat and I asked Jacob if he would help out with the kids first, because I didn't want my kids to get it and I needed to go to the doctor. Um, Jacob said that he had work. So that was a situation where I don't have family out here. Um, I don't have any other resources and he's a helpful friend of mine. So I had him come over [02:02:00] Speaker 3: at that time. All right. You also testified that your mother's a helpful resource for you, right? [02:02:04] Speaker 7: Yes. But she also was working full time right now. So, so she was not available at that time. No, [02:02:11] Speaker 3: it was during the week when she was working. All right. And so despite the court's order, you chose to use him as a resource. Is that fair? I didn't have another option. It was, [02:02:20] Speaker 7: I was bedridden with strep throat. I was really sick. So, and my kids needed somebody to take care of them. Um, Jacob wouldn't step up for it. So you were bedridden that day. Is that right? Yes. It was also during the sale of, um, our mom co fundraiser that I had. So you were bedridden, [02:02:38] Speaker 3: but you had a garage sale at your property. Is that right? Yeah. And you also went out that night with girlfriends and posted that on social media. Is that right? No, [02:02:46] Speaker 7: I did that on Saturday. This was all on that Thursday. All right. So within two days, [02:02:51] Speaker 3: you went from being bedridden, uh, and needing to violate the court's order and have a romantic third party, take care of your children to being able to go out to a girl's night. Yes. So you have also stated, you also in your testimony stated that, um, substance abuse is not a problem for you. Is that your testimony? Yes. All right. And then you testified to some incidents that happened back in August of 2025 around how this case got started. Is that right? Yes. All right. And during the August of 2025 incident, it is your testimony that you were not using substances that night? [02:03:35] Speaker 7: No, I didn't testify to saying yes or no to that question. Okay, great. What substances did you use [02:03:40] Speaker 3: that night? What were you under the influence of? I was drinking alcohol. Is that all? Yes. So if the police report indicates that you had a vape in your bra, would that be inaccurate? [02:03:51] Speaker 7: Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't consider that. Um, yes, I have, I have a vape too. All right. And did alcohol [02:03:59] Speaker 3: contribute to the behavior that was, uh, at issue that night? I think it contributed to the whole [02:04:05] Speaker 7: situation that occurred that night. Yes. Between. And when, so when you say that there was domestic [02:04:11] Speaker 3: violence that happened in front of your children, who was the aggressor that night? Um, both of us. All right. So in other words, again, the police report concluded that you were the aggressor, [02:04:22] Speaker 7: that'd be inaccurate. Yes, that was me. Um, I've been in a domestic violence relationship for a long time. We were in counseling in 2022 with it. Um, and then that was a situation that happened where I, I had reactive abuse, where I was officially reacting to the situation happening to me. My default is to always protect my family and it was to protect my husband. So when the police showed up, I said, do whatever you need to do. I don't even know what happened. I don't want my kids to see this. I don't want the neighbors to see this. Just do whatever you have to do. I laid down like a dog. I didn't fight for myself. Um, and it was actually my friend who had to go to the police and say, no, no, no, no, no, she's got marks on her body. Actually, she just didn't speak up for herself. [02:05:11] Speaker 3: So, um, that's kind of how that situation played out. And as in regards to the marks on you, did you, um, were, were you, uh, you lied to the police that night about those marks? In what way did I lie? So if in the report or the body cam footage, you state that the marks were because of yourself and because you bruise easily, um, when asked if Jacob did that, that would be a lie. [02:05:38] Speaker 7: Oh, that was because they were pointing to bruises that didn't show up yet. Those were ones that did not have anything to do with them. I didn't know until I was in the jail cell that there was other bruises appearing on my body that I wasn't aware of. That's when they had to come out and take more [02:05:52] Speaker 3: pictures of it. All right. So when you say in the video that the bruises are from yourself, those are not the same bruises. Is that your question? No. All right. And then with regards to physical, I guess, um, results of things that happened, um, what happened to Jacob that night? [02:06:12] Speaker 7: Um, I don't know. I went to jail and he was gone the next day. You don't know what kind of injuries he sustained. Um, I mean, I talked to him for a while after and he didn't have any visible injuries to me. So no, I don't. You weren't aware that you broke his nose. No, I was not aware that I broke his nose. [02:06:32] Speaker 3: All right. But you admit that you, there was contact between the two of you. So if he ended up with a broken nose, that would probably be your fault. I can't recall on that at all. I was never [02:06:42] Speaker 7: aware of that information. All right. Did you hit him in the face? Um, I don't know. I, I, I hit him [02:06:50] Speaker 3: somewhere. I don't know where. Did you hit him in the face while he was holding your child? I don't know. [02:06:56] Speaker 7: It was a very, very blurry, scary night. You don't recall? I don't recall. Is that due to the influence [02:07:05] Speaker 3: of substances? I think that and PTSD related. Absolutely. So because of substances and PTSD, you don't recall assaulting him badly enough to break his nose? Correct. And or whether or not that bad, that assault that was bad enough to break his nose occurred while he was holding your child? Correct. And also there was an, uh, another child president present. Is that correct? Uh, correct. And that child also witnessed a physical altercation between the two of you? Correct. [02:07:42] Speaker 7: And do you recall that? Uh, no, I didn't even know that he saw anything either. I was told the next day. [02:07:49] Speaker 3: All right. You found out afterwards that he had witnessed it. Is that right? Yeah, that's correct. So it would be your testimony. You can't really, um, you, you couldn't testify to what was said or what [02:07:58] Speaker 7: he observed, right? I'm going off of other people's witness testimony. Okay. You've just, you've since been told about it. Is that fair? Yep. I'm going off of other people's witness testimony. [02:08:10] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, with regards to the alcohol abuse affecting, so it's, is it your testimony that substance abuse does not affect you? Is that right? That is correct. And it's never affected your parenting time? That is correct. All right. Um, on, do you recall the date of April 18th? Of 2025 or 2026? Of 2026? Um, off the top of my head, no. And if there, uh, do you, have you ever had, um, an alcohol, uh, an alcoholic substance, like a hard seltzer in your car? Oh, I do recall that. [02:08:50] Speaker 7: That was my mom's birthday weekend and I took her to Cooper's Hawk the night before. So that was her [02:08:55] Speaker 3: beverage. Her beverage while drinking in your car? Yes. And it was still there the next day on exchange? Yes. If I [02:09:02] Speaker 7: thought I had an alcohol issue and I had something to hide, I probably would have hidden it. I didn't even realize that was there because it wasn't mine. So if you had an alcohol or substance use problem, [02:09:13] Speaker 3: you would have taken measures to conceal that from Jacob. Is that right? Yeah. I think people who have addictions have reasons to hide things. Um, was there also an incident in February where alcohol affected your parenting time? No. You don't recall anything in February that would have affected your parenting time. Is that correct? No. Do you recall February 22nd of 2025? No. Not off the, 2025. Yup. I'm sorry. 2026. This year. Not off the top of my head. No. And so there, if I were to remind you of an incident where, um, you needed to, uh, get a ride from Mr. Dreyer from [02:10:15] Speaker 7: the bar home, you wouldn't recall that? I recall that, but I don't know how that affects my parenting [02:10:21] Speaker 3: time. Okay. Let's talk about that. You recall that weekend? I recall that night now. Yes. Was it your parenting time? Yes. And during your parenting time, were you with your children? No, I went out for a night out with my friends that are present during that night out with your friends. How did you come to need to [02:10:43] Speaker 7: contact Mr. Dreyer? Um, my phone got stolen while I was at a bar with some friends and then the person who was supposed to pick me up was on the other side of the Bob and they would not let me back into the Bob and they would not let him into the Bob. So there was miscommunication. I don't know any other person's phone number by heart. So he was my only resource because I didn't have a phone to call anybody. All right. And during that. And I figured that the father of my kids would help me get home [02:11:14] Speaker 3: without using it against me eventually. And during that, uh, ride home, um, did you have, uh, was it uneventful? I, I can't recall. You can't recall because you're drinking. I was very distraught. I was very, very upset. So your lapse of memory is not from your, um, it's, it's not from substance use. Your lapse of memory is from, uh, your distress. Is that fair? I would say it's my PTSD [02:11:43] Speaker 7: of being back in the car with my ex-husband when I didn't want to be in that situation. [02:11:48] Speaker 3: All right. You don't, you know, nobody else's contact information. Is that right? [02:11:52] Speaker 7: Not anybody on the east side who can help me? No, or on the west side. Pardon me. Again, [02:11:57] Speaker 3: I think your testimony was that your mother is, is very helpful to you. Is that right? [02:12:01] Speaker 7: Yes. But, um, if I call her, who would she call? [02:12:05] Speaker 3: So it's another incident where she can't be counted counted on to help you. Just saying. [02:12:10] Speaker 7: Um, I would not agree with that statement. No. Okay. Why didn't you call her? Because A, this doesn't have to do with my kids. I go to her when it has to do with my kids. And B, because she lives on the east side of the state. So she wouldn't be able to come pick me up. [02:12:25] Speaker 3: Okay. So, um, you had no other choice but to call this person that put you in a state of trauma, which meant that you couldn't recall. Is that right? Yeah. All right. And if Jacob were to testify when it's his turn that, um, he had to pull over on the side of the road to allow you to vomit for a period of time due to the fact that you were intoxicated, would he be telling the truth? I can't recall. Okay. And do you call recall arriving home that evening? Yes. And did Jacob ask if he could, uh, take over the parenting time because you were inebriated so that the children could arrive, um, could be cared for properly? No, he did not. Okay. And, um, in your state of distress, um, and you know, I guess it's yet to be seen whether there was, uh, if he testifies that there was a period of vomiting and all of these things that you were going through that meant that you couldn't recall, um, did you think that you should have been the one to parent your children [02:13:24] Speaker 7: that night? Yes, I was still okay to parent my children. I would never put myself in a situation where I'm unable to be a fit mother to my three kids. Okay. And so, um, and that would include [02:13:37] Speaker 3: a time that you're now testifying that you have no ability to recollect. Yes. All right. There was also, with regards to the period in August, um, you stated that, uh, your children were told that you made bad decisions that were not safe. Is that your testimony? Correct. Um, it is accurate that at least for a period of time you weren't able to contact the children because of the criminal charges, isn't it? No. So there wasn't a prohibition. You were charged with domestic violence, including against them, right? Yes. I was not able to contact their [02:14:23] Speaker 7: father. There was nothing about the children. So I was able to talk to my children through a third party, which was my mother. Um, but he still refused to cooperate and allow me to see the children until it was officially court ordered. All right. At that time, um, would you have [02:14:43] Speaker 3: explained it a different way why there couldn't be contact between the two of you? Absolutely. [02:14:48] Speaker 7: Okay. And what would that be? Um, I would say that they're adult issues and that you don't have to worry about it and that mommy and daddy will figure things out and you're very loved by them. I would never, ever tell my kids that their dad is an unsafe person and made bad choices. I cannot fathom ever saying that to my children about him, even though he has made bad choices. Even though that would be the [02:15:12] Speaker 3: consequences, that would be the case if there was charges of domestic violence, right? But there was no conviction, so. All right. And again, um, who did you attribute the dropping, the, uh, the, uh, dropping of the charges to? Jacob. He drove there and dropped them. All right. In other words, he convinced the prosecutor not to move forward with them? Um, yeah. Okay. All right. With regards to, I guess, the concept of stability itself, um, it is your request to the court at this point, you're asking the court to allow you to remain in the home, um, past the conclusion of the divorce. In other words, to allow you after the finalization of the divorce, to allow you to continue in the home. Is that right? Correct. All right. And at this point, um, there is at least going to be a break in [02:16:12] Speaker 7: the financial ability to support that you would agree. Um, I have no idea. I don't know what our [02:16:19] Speaker 3: finances look like. Okay. You, you would agree that we've talked about Jacob's unemployment at this [02:16:26] Speaker 7: point. So he's no longer employed at this point. That's me taking your word for it. So about finances. [02:16:33] Speaker 3: All right. Fair enough. Um, you were though, um, to some point, you were aware for your previous testimony that you guys were that as a family, you guys were overextended with regards to your budget. [02:16:47] Speaker 7: Again, yes, I was informed that way, but I, I have no knowledge of seeing it myself. [02:16:52] Speaker 3: All right. So you did testify prior that you were able to see the Monarch program and that it gave you a prior to you stopping being able to access it. You had a [02:17:02] Speaker 7: picture of your finances, correct? That was back in March when we had $30,000 in our account. And then since I haven't had access to it, I've now been told that we don't have money. I have not seen [02:17:14] Speaker 3: where any of that money has gone. All right. Do you dispute that the charges and that the expenses that you've had since August of last year, you, you dispute that they exceed the income? [02:17:25] Speaker 7: Um, I think this is a very interesting situation because he cut me off financially and made me only use a credit card without being able to pay it off. That's not really a normal situation. Um, so I think we should be able to live on $12,000 a month, which we have been prior to this past year. This past year is the one time we've had a $40,000 credit card now. We have not had this before. [02:17:55] Speaker 3: Well, let's take it for what it's worth right now. You have outstanding $40,000 in two house, households to support. You'd agree with at least that, right? Absolutely. All right. So, and that if we, let's take for granted that Jacob is unemployed, at least as of today. Uh, do you believe that it would promote stability to content, to allow you to remain [02:18:19] Speaker 7: in the home without any income right now? Yes. Um, first off, moving us out of the home is only going to be a detriment to our kids. Um, they're starting a school year. Where are we going to live? Um, Um, where, what, what support system is it going to look like? Are you expecting us to go to the east side? That's not going to happen. Um, also, I need to be in the home to have spousal and child support to eventually qualify for my own home so that I can be pre-approved in the future. As of now, I can't be pre-approved because I've been a stay-at-home mom. Um, and then additionally, we have a $1,900 mortgage right now. If I were to move out with my three kids, I'm not going to find anything that's cheaper than $1,900 a month. So, it's in our best interest to keep this for our kids right now financially. We're just going to pay more money where we move. [02:19:13] Speaker 3: If the house were sold, would there be equity? [02:19:17] Speaker 7: Yes, but I don't know where me and my children would go. [02:19:19] Speaker 3: So, if the house were sold, you would, according to, I believe, uh, your worksheet, there should be about $300,000 worth of equity after the mortgage and the HELOC are paid off. Would you agree with that? [02:19:33] Speaker 7: Yes, but I also don't believe that it's, um, fair to sell our home because Jacob lost his job. I think our kids should be remained in the home because that's best for them, not selling it and moving them. [02:19:48] Speaker 3: Okay. You initiated this divorce, correct? [02:19:51] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:19:52] Speaker 3: And you'd like to no longer be married? [02:19:54] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:19:55] Speaker 3: And part of no longer being married is dividing the assets and you could divide this asset and each have a substantial amount to support yourselves and move on from this marriage. Would that be correct? [02:20:06] Speaker 7: Um, I actually sent over a settlement a while ago to both of you about the house and selling it. And I, I never even got a response from that. So I have tried to negotiate on the house. Um, but okay. [02:20:19] Speaker 3: And I appreciate that. Um, the question though, would be that upon the sale of the house, you would both each get a substantial amount of equity. If we all take for granted that we're going to divide the proceeds equally, you'd be able to support yourself and independently support yourself. Um, and your children, right? [02:20:37] Speaker 7: Yes, but I don't know where me and my children would be. All right. That's my first and foremost concern is where my children live. [02:20:45] Speaker 3: Have you made any plans towards that? [02:20:47] Speaker 7: I've attempted to, but I can't secure anything without funds and finances. I can't put down any rent. I can't put down anything. I have no money to even make any moves on it if I wanted to. [02:20:58] Speaker 3: But had you sold the house, those funds would be available to you, correct? [02:21:02] Speaker 7: Yeah, but I don't know where my kids would be. [02:21:04] Speaker 3: Okay. So in other words, you, um, are valuing maintaining this home over making that plan for the future. And essentially you're okay with creating the moment of instability because you're hoping that the court awards that to you. Is that right? [02:21:22] Speaker 7: Yes. I was not the one that created the financial instability. Um, Jacob was the one who lost his job. So my children should not be the ones that have to suffer from that. They need to stay in this home for finding for stability purposes before the school year. They went through a whole school year last year with this. I am not starting a new school year with uprooting them and moving them right now. It's absolutely insanity to think that that's appropriate for them. They're five and six years old and two years old. One of them starting kindergarten, a whole new school. Okay. So if Jacob needs finances, he can go into his 401k then, and he can pay that way. We don't need to sell the house right now. We can keep it for six months until he gets a new job. [02:22:11] Speaker 3: What prevented you from having these plans in place prior to now what plans like what prevented you from if, if you needed, if it was important for your children's stability to have a place that they, there would not be a question for the court to make a decision about prior to starting their school year. What prevented you from having those plans in place before now? [02:22:36] Speaker 7: I don't understand your question. [02:22:38] Speaker 3: So it was, it's very important to you. Your, your testimony is very important to you that the children remain or that have stability for this plan school year. Right? [02:22:48] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:22:48] Speaker 3: All right. But you have no idea after even just, if the court even gave you six months, it would still be in the middle of the school year, would it not? [02:22:56] Speaker 7: Yes, it would. [02:22:58] Speaker 3: So if this was the driving factor, what steps did you take to make sure there'd be stability by September 1st? [02:23:06] Speaker 7: Um, I've, I don't really understand that question about ensuring stability with, within the home. Is that what you're meaning? [02:23:15] Speaker 3: Well, your testimony is that, that stability was important. And the only way to achieve that is to remain in the home. Is that fair? [02:23:20] Speaker 7: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm not understanding the question properly. [02:23:24] Speaker 3: That's okay. We have to kind of go back and forth. So it is what it is. I will accept your answers. Thank you. All right. Um, let's go back to, you guys have been exercising a relatively equal parenting time schedule since August. You would agree with that? [02:23:38] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:23:39] Speaker 3: Of last year. Sorry. And now you were asking the court to decrease parenting time for Jacob, um, due to concerns that have been in place since before August of 2025. Is that right? [02:23:54] Speaker 7: Um, yes, but they've exasperated since August, 2025. [02:23:59] Speaker 3: And, and when? [02:24:01] Speaker 7: Um, over the last year when he started surveilling me. [02:24:05] Speaker 3: All right. And the surveillance has to do with you violating the court order. Is that right? [02:24:09] Speaker 7: Um, I'm not sure why he hired a PI. I didn't even know he hired a PI until you guys mentioned that, but I do know that he was stalking me, um, in January. Through my ring doorbell and through my car tracker. [02:24:23] Speaker 3: And by stalking, you mean referencing you having a man come to the house that he was unaware of, correct? [02:24:30] Speaker 7: There was also another situation where a friend came to my door and dropped off something and he asked me who was at my door. So whether it was a man or a neighbor or my mom, anytime somebody came to my door, he listened on that ring doorbell. [02:24:43] Speaker 3: All right. Um, did you ask for the password to the ring doorbell? [02:24:46] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:24:47] Speaker 3: And you asked for it to be changed? [02:24:49] Speaker 7: Yes. And he did not change it. So I, I had to remove the ring doorbell. [02:24:53] Speaker 3: All right. And then you did remove it. [02:24:55] Speaker 7: I had to, because he would not change the password and wouldn't stop stalking me. [02:24:59] Speaker 3: All right. Did you file a motion to ask the court to change it? [02:25:02] Speaker 7: No. [02:25:03] Speaker 3: All right. Um, when did you become aware that there was a diagnosis and what documentation do you have to support a diagnosis to support a reliant personality disorder? [02:25:14] Speaker 7: Um, I don't have any documentation, um, but I was present with him for some psychiatrist appointments where that came up and how we can, um, better support him with that. [02:25:26] Speaker 3: With the diagnosis or with symptoms related to that? [02:25:30] Speaker 7: Um, with the diagnosis, symptoms, medication, all the above, how to, how to help manage. [02:25:35] Speaker 3: All right. What types of symptoms that qualify for borderline personality do you know that he has? [02:25:40] Speaker 7: Um, a lot of it is just the highs and lows. He gets very heightened, very easily, very depressed, very easily, where he'll be in bed for several days, um, and not be able to parent or where he gets really angry. Um, impulsiveness. He's very impulsive. Um, he bought a truck with his mom without my knowledge in 2022. Um, he, he does consume substances a little bit more than average at times because it helps numb the, the things in your mind, the voices in your mind. Um, okay. [02:26:16] Speaker 3: Now there's voices. Is that part of a diagnosis as well? [02:26:20] Speaker 7: I didn't say that was a part of the diagnosis. I'm just talking about what we talked about in the doctor's office and what he described to me that he felt. [02:26:28] Speaker 3: All right. This is Jacob describing that he feels these things to you. [02:26:31] Speaker 7: Yeah. Okay. Between me and him and his psychiatrist. [02:26:35] Speaker 3: All right. So you weren't present for any diagnostic. You weren't present for a diagnostic appointment where the doc said, oh, we've created this test and we're diagnosing him with this. Does that run? [02:26:45] Speaker 7: I was not allowed. I was not allowed to be present for those. No. [02:26:49] Speaker 3: Okay. So you're allowed to be present for some things and not other things. That's your testimony. [02:26:52] Speaker 7: I was allowed to be present for the office visits to talk with this psychiatrist. I was not able to be present during his testing for the diagnoses. [02:27:01] Speaker 3: All right. So did you verbally or, uh, did you ever verbally hear, um, a professional state that he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder? [02:27:11] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:27:12] Speaker 3: All right. And if they verbally stated it, did they say why or why not? There would be some, like, medical documentation that indicated that diagnosis. [02:27:22] Speaker 7: I, I don't recall. I don't know what that means. [02:27:26] Speaker 3: All right. So have you ever seen physical documentation or on my chart or anything that says that diagnosis for Jacob? [02:27:32] Speaker 7: No, he's never shown me any of his paperwork or anything. [02:27:35] Speaker 3: All right. But you were privy to his medications? [02:27:38] Speaker 7: Yes, because they're in our cabinet. Okay. We have access to those. [02:27:42] Speaker 3: Um, and, um, you testified also regarding the, um, he said that he's not taking any medications anymore. Is that right? Correct. Um, but you likewise have no knowledge of whether that's pursuant to medical advice, right? Correct. [02:28:02] Speaker ?: All right. [02:28:02] Speaker 3: So he could be compliant with his treaters by not taking medication as well. [02:28:07] Speaker 7: That could be correct. [02:28:08] Speaker 3: All right. Okay. Um, I think we have to kind of also talk about this time period, which is kind of going back to financials with regards to child support. You are asking for retroactive child support from August to December. Is that right? [02:28:30] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:28:31] Speaker 3: And during that time, um, you were, uh, you had access to the $5,000 from that, uh, from the joint account. Is that right? [02:28:41] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:28:42] Speaker 3: That was marital funds. [02:28:44] Speaker 7: For a six month period, I had $5,000. Yes. [02:28:46] Speaker 3: Well, we're talking about August, September, October, November, and December. So five months, is that right? [02:28:53] Speaker 7: Um, so five months. Yes. [02:28:55] Speaker 3: Yep. And I believe you testified that that did last you through December. Is that right? [02:29:00] Speaker 7: Um, it lasted me from August to December. I only used it. I mean, that was my only means of cash because I had a credit card. So I had to be very careful of when I use those funds. [02:29:11] Speaker 3: All right. So you had the cash. Once again, you had a credit card where Jacob paid the balance. Is that right? [02:29:16] Speaker 7: Uh, the minimum balance. [02:29:18] Speaker 3: Yes. And during that time, you had no household expenses. Is that right? That's correct. All right. And, um, at least during a portion of the time, uh, for nine days, at least, Jacob had full control. He had, um, you had no contact with the children. You already testified to that. Correct. And then after that, you guys began sharing parenting time. [02:29:40] Speaker ?: Correct. [02:29:41] Speaker 3: And, um, on an equal basis, right? [02:29:47] Speaker 2: Correct. [02:29:48] Speaker 3: Um, with regards to the child support, again, I just say, I guess we have to cover the, um, basis here. You have, uh, your prior testimonies that you had 10 applications over the course of between August and August of 2025 and currently, right? Correct. And that was for part-time applications? Correct. And you haven't done anything towards, uh, pursuing recertification in any of the things you are trained for? [02:30:18] Speaker 7: No. [02:30:18] Speaker 3: All right. Um, and there's nothing physically stopping you and that there was daycare available. Yes to those? [02:30:26] Speaker 7: Nothing physically stopping me. No, no daycare was available. All right. [02:30:30] Speaker 3: So I guess that's kind of a point of contention too. So you disagreed with there being daycare available when Jacob tried to make daycare available, but also, um, you volunteered to take the children during that time so that, um, he could work, but you also would not be working. Is that right? [02:30:47] Speaker 7: Well, he was making daycare available on his time, not on my time. Um, so that wouldn't be helpful for me finding a job. I would have to pay my own daycare to find a job that was only on his time. [02:31:03] Speaker 3: Okay. But he was providing, um, that was your understanding. Is that right? Correct. [02:31:08] Speaker 7: Cause it was two days a week. [02:31:10] Speaker 3: Um, but at the time Jacob was paying all expenses. Is that right? [02:31:14] Speaker ?: Correct. [02:31:15] Speaker 3: And so if you would want a daycare to be available, Jacob was available and daycare was available, right? [02:31:21] Speaker 7: Um, I don't think it was available because he talked about our finances a lot and how that was very tight. So if we were to put our kids in full-time daycare, um, I'm sure that would have been a big issue. That's why I've stayed home for the last seven years, because any money that I would bring in wouldn't amount to putting them in daycare. It, it made more sense for me to stay home and raise our kids. [02:31:42] Speaker 3: All right. And that was before a separation though. Yeah. [02:31:44] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:31:45] Speaker 3: All right. Um, focusing again, I believe one of one part of your testimony was that it was ongoing concerns for both violence and his mental state. Is that right? Correct. Has he ever been violent to the children? [02:32:11] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:32:12] Speaker 3: All right. And when is that? [02:32:14] Speaker 7: Um, I can think about, I mean, apart from August last year, I can think about, um, a time in June or July in 2025 when we were at a friend's house and he, um, my middle son down the stairs by his arm and him out because he wanted to leave. And he wasn't leaving, um, my mom was a witness to it as well. [02:32:39] Speaker 3: Did you take any action at that time? [02:32:41] Speaker 7: Um, not in front. I, we always made a pact that we wouldn't, um, undermine each other in front of the kids, um, but that we would talk about it in private. So we did discuss it in private. [02:32:51] Speaker 3: All right. You addressed the concerns? [02:32:52] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:32:53] Speaker 3: All right. Caused you to make any changes otherwise? [02:32:55] Speaker 7: Um, it made me file for divorce eventually. Eventually. [02:33:05] Speaker 3: Um, okay. With regards to, um, who has the parental controls over the children's iPads? [02:33:15] Speaker 7: Um, both of us. [02:33:20] Speaker 3: You both have the ability to have parental controls over the iPads? [02:33:23] Speaker 7: Yes. He knows the password and the username. So he's able to access parental controls as well as I can. [02:33:29] Speaker 3: You said the password and the username, the username assigned to one of you. [02:33:34] Speaker 7: Uh, it's under my name because I'm the one who created the accounts. Yes. [02:33:38] Speaker 3: Okay. So if he has access, he has access by knowing the password to your parental control. Is that right? That is correct. Okay. Um, but either way, if you have the ability to access, um, if you have the parental controls over the iPads, why do they have YouTube on them? [02:33:55] Speaker 7: Because when they go to their fathers, they can download it again. And he doesn't check their iPads to make sure that there's any supervision. [02:34:03] Speaker 3: Have you removed the access to, have you removed YouTube from it? Yes. And then when, when does it go back on? [02:34:10] Speaker 7: It re-downloads when you press the button and I have no idea why. I've been trying to figure it out for a long time. [02:34:17] Speaker 3: So is Jacob re-downloading it? [02:34:21] Speaker 7: I have no idea. [02:34:23] Speaker 3: All right. So, um, you, so you have no evidence to suggest that he's putting it on there. You have the parental calls. You also can't get it off of the iPad. Is that right? [02:34:33] Speaker 7: Um, no, I can get it off when it's at my house, but then when they come back, it's back on their iPad. So I have no idea how it gets re-downloaded and I don't know how to get it to be gone forever. It, it can just be re-downloaded at any time. So I delete it when it comes to my house and when they come back from their fathers, it's re-downloaded. I've also been informed from them that they watch YouTube at their grandparents and also in their room on their TV. [02:34:58] Speaker 3: Um, is there YouTube kids? [02:35:01] Speaker 7: They do not use YouTube kids. They use YouTube because they watch scary things. [02:35:06] Speaker 3: All right. Have you watched, have they showed you the scary things on their YouTube? [02:35:09] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:35:11] Speaker 3: Um, the same devices that you have? [02:35:13] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:35:14] Speaker 3: Have you talked about removing all the iPads? [02:35:17] Speaker 7: Um, yes. [02:35:19] Speaker 3: And why, what's stopping you? [02:35:21] Speaker 7: Um, I can only control what goes on in my house. I don't know how it's going to go over in his environment and, um, that makes it very confusing. If we're not on the same page with taking technology away because I'm, I'm the bad guy. So that's the subject that I've tried to breach before, but we haven't gotten anywhere. [02:35:42] Speaker 3: Um, it's your testimony that the kids do not get any love and guidance from Jacob. Is that right? [02:35:48] Speaker 7: I think that their loving guidance has been misdirected lately. Lately as in one, um, in the last year. [02:35:56] Speaker 3: So for the last August through August, August of 25 through present, they've been misdirected. Have you asked the court to change the temporary order? Yes. When did you ask the court to change? [02:36:08] Speaker 7: That was with my previous counsel. I never got any motions filed like I wanted. Um, and then I, I mean, I thought we were going to be divorced in February with mediation. So I didn't think that anything needed to be emotion filed. I thought everything would be tied up by then. I didn't think that we'd be going a year on. So, um, in hindsight, I probably would have done things a lot differently, but here we are. [02:36:33] Speaker 3: So you don't believe that there's any value to the relationship between Mr. Dreyer and the children? [02:36:40] Speaker 7: I do believe that there's value in the relationship, but I believe that it needs to be very closely monitored right now. [02:36:47] Speaker 3: And who's appropriate to monitor that again? [02:36:50] Speaker 7: Um, I don't know how this works. I don't know how if visitation were, I don't, I don't know, um, if it's signing off on their mental health personnel. I don't know how this works. This is my first time going through this. I just know that what I've experienced in the last year is very unpredictable behavior. [02:37:12] Speaker 3: And that having contact, so they're going to go from having, um, relatively equal time with both of you down to every other week on behavior or every other week on parenting time. Um, and you believe that reduction would not cause any instability. [02:37:28] Speaker 7: Well, prior to this last year, it was me around them all the time without Jacob present. So it's been this last year where he's been more present than ever in their lives. Um, so it shouldn't be that much of a change since they've grown up that way. But, um, he has come, he has hindered their education, their extracurriculars, their, um, medical appointments now. So I'm not really sure how I can count on him to, uh, trust him to make sure that they're getting to and from the places they need to be. When he's shown just in the last month alone, he couldn't make, um, dentist or doctor's appointments. [02:38:04] Speaker 3: That dentist appointment got rescheduled, correct? [02:38:07] Speaker 7: I believe so. [02:38:09] Speaker 3: Yep. And you've already testified that you haven't used the calendar function in Our Family Wizard. So how was Mr. Dreyer notified about the medical appointment? [02:38:17] Speaker 7: Um, he can ask. [02:38:19] Speaker 3: He can ask, how did you notify him of the medical appointment he was supposed to take your child to on that, on that day? [02:38:26] Speaker 7: I messaged him on Our Family Wizard about it prior to the appointment. [02:38:30] Speaker 3: About two hours before? [02:38:32] Speaker 7: I can't recall the time that I did it, but I can't recall the time that I did it, but I did give him a heads up, um, about the appointment. [02:38:43] Speaker 3: Was that the same day? [02:38:45] Speaker 7: I can't recall if it was the same day or not. I don't have the message in front of me. [02:38:50] Speaker 3: Okay. Um, you definitely didn't put it in the calendar when it was made or any time prior though, right? [02:38:56] Speaker 7: I've never used the calendar. Neither has Jacob. We've never used that function. [02:39:02] Speaker ?: All right. All right. [02:39:09] Speaker 3: Do you believe that the way that you have treated Jacob has always been respectful as well? [02:39:14] Speaker 7: For the most part, yes. [02:39:16] Speaker 3: All right. So, um, lying to him about the person, uh, the, is the, the, the friend slash boyfriend that's in their lives, is that respectful to him? [02:39:27] Speaker 7: Um, I don't know why that information should be important to him. [02:39:31] Speaker 3: That person who has contact with his children, is that right? [02:39:34] Speaker 7: But he hasn't had contact with my children. So I don't know why he's, um, still relevant to this. [02:39:43] Speaker 3: We're back to saying he hasn't had contact. He has had contact though, right? You've, you've allowed contact between him and the children, right? [02:39:49] Speaker 7: Told you in May. Yes, there was a situation in May. [02:39:52] Speaker 3: Okay. And the children are aware of him. They know of him. [02:39:56] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:39:57] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:39:58] Speaker 3: He's cared for the children, at least on one occasion. [02:40:01] Speaker 7: Yes. He's a very good person. [02:40:03] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:40:04] Speaker 3: I have no other questions. [02:40:09] Speaker 2: Ms. Schultz, any redirect? [02:40:11] Speaker 6: Uh, yes. [02:40:13] Speaker 2: Thank you. [02:40:14] Speaker 6: Um, Ms. Dreyer, did you attempt to discuss kindergarten enrollment with Mr. Dreyer? Yes, multiple times. Okay. And walk me through those conversations. [02:40:26] Speaker 7: Um, it was just letting him know when we had to sign him up, what we needed beforehand and, you know, that I would take care of all of it. I just needed his birth certificate, um, because that was not left in the home. When I came back to the home in August, 2025, um, I asked for the birth certificates, I think on three different occasions. And it was always met with, um, I'll do it if, I'll do it if, or it was just flat out, no, I'm not doing that. Um, so I, I took it upon myself to enroll my child in kindergarten so that his education was taken care of. [02:41:02] Speaker 6: Okay. And enrollment in kindergarten, does that, do you have the ability to remove him from that enrollment? Um, I guess, let me put it this way. Is he stuck going there? Like, did you make that final decision or was it more as a placeholder so he had a place to go? Placeholder. Okay. Um, understanding that the two of you, if you were ordered to make joint decisions come fall, would have to make that decision together. Correct. [02:41:32] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:41:33] Speaker 6: Um, I want to talk about the, you were talking about, um, some of the domestic violence, um, between you and Mr. Dreyer with Ms. Wolfram. Um, you mentioned that, um, some PTSD, sometimes you, you didn't, um, you recall things because of PTSD, you didn't report things because of PTSD. Can you talk a little bit more about that? [02:41:54] Speaker 7: Um, throughout our marriage, there's been a lot of traumatic events. Um, also apart from my marriage, just things that I've experienced in my own life. Um, I've been in therapy for things and I've learned that I, uh, I struggle with PTSD, um, which basically blackouts my mind a lot of the time when I'm in, um, a traumatic event. Um, or when I'm experiencing something, um, um, it's kind of like a blackout because it's like a trauma response to protect yourself from what's going on. [02:42:28] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:42:28] Speaker 6: Um, are there certain circumstances in which that, um, occurs more often than others? [02:42:37] Speaker 7: Um, can you elaborate a little more on that? [02:42:41] Speaker 6: Yeah. So, I mean, what types of scenarios is that PTSD typically triggered in? [02:42:47] Speaker 7: Um, it, it's changed throughout the years. Um, it can just be being yelled at. It can be, um, I, I can feel the energy. I can feel, especially from Jacob, I can feel when he's upset and then it triggers my PTSD. Like I'm preparing for something to happen. Um, and a lot of the time it's just his, his emotional state or people's emotional states that they're in. Um, it, it triggers a response in me. [02:43:13] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:43:14] Speaker 6: And to be fair, is that because historically there has been something that's happened following those responses by Mr. Dreyer? Yes. [02:43:23] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:43:24] Speaker 6: Um, I want to talk about your, um, I guess the allegations that you have, um, a substance abuse problem. Um, um, you submitted to SoberLink willingly in the fall of 2025, correct? [02:43:39] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:43:39] Speaker 6: Okay. And did you have any positive tests at that, at, in that time? [02:43:43] Speaker 7: No. [02:43:44] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, I'm going to bounce back and forth a little bit, just because it's kind of the order we were going in, but, um, we're talking about, um, getting a new place. Um, if the home were to be sold today and you were to walk away with, let's say $100,000 of equity, um, and you could put all of that on a debt for a down payment on a new place. Would you still need in ongoing income, regular income to qualify to, um, for a new mortgage? [02:44:14] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:44:15] Speaker 6: Okay. Um, and have you discussed this with lenders? [02:44:20] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:44:21] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:44:22] Speaker 6: Um, Ms. Dreyer, why did you initiate the divorce? [02:44:27] Speaker 7: Um, I attempted four years, like I said, in 2022, we attempted couples counseling. Um, there was a breakdown in the marriage, um, that was after, or in 2023, I believe, excuse me, um, that was after the door incident. When he broke through the door, I almost left the marriage back then. Um, that's when he promised to start seeing doctors, psychiatrists, to look at his mental health, to figure out why he was behaving this way, reacting this way. Um, I decided to stand by his side during that and to, um, try to support him during all of that. And then after everything happened last summer, um, between the, that escalated, it started getting much more physical than it ever was. Um, and then the, um, an attempt, and then the police call and charge in August, that was all just too much for, for our marriage to sustain anymore. I think that it's much better for us to be apart than for us to be together. [02:45:28] Speaker 6: Um, based on your interactions and experience with Mr. Dreyer, do you believe that he exhibits the symptoms of borderline personality from your understanding of it? [02:45:39] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:45:40] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:45:41] Speaker 6: Um, based on your experience with the psychiatrists, counselors, and Mr. Dreyer, do you believe, um, that he has a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder? [02:45:50] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:45:51] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:45:52] Speaker 6: Um, would something like proof of compliance with medications, um, help you be comfortable with the, the children in his care? [02:46:04] Speaker 7: Yes. Yes. [02:46:05] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:46:05] Speaker 6: Um, Ms. Wolfram indicated that you essentially would be, based on your request, going from equal time with both of, um, for the kids with both of you down to, um, you know, minimal time with Mr. Dreyer. Um, are the kids actually having equal time with both of, both their parents, their parents, you and Mr. Dreyer right now? [02:46:27] Speaker 7: No. [02:46:28] Speaker 6: Okay. [02:46:28] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:46:28] Speaker 6: And in fact, um, most of the time is being spent with the children's paternal grandparents during Mr. Dreyer's time, is it not? [02:46:35] Speaker 7: Correct. [02:46:36] Speaker ?: Okay. [02:46:38] Speaker 6: Um, regarding the dental appointments, um, I'm going to pull up exhibit 18 again, which we did discuss earlier. Um, and this is the, we've established that this is the, um, our family wizard message between you and Mr. Dreyer in June of this year, um, is it accurate to say that on June 17th, you advised Mr. Dreyer that, um, and I apologize. There are, um, there is a child, um, and on that note, um, I don't have any other questions for Ms. Dreyer at this point. [02:47:19] Speaker 2: Ms. Wolfram, do you have any follow-up? [02:47:22] Speaker 3: Um, yeah. How do you, um, what, what, are you present during my client's parenting time? [02:47:31] Speaker 7: Uh, no. [02:47:33] Speaker 3: So where does your knowledge that the children are not spending time with their father during his parenting time come from? [02:47:40] Speaker 7: Um, during the instances where he was not present to pick up his kids during the exchange and that, um, he goes to the east side of the state with his parents, um, every time he has them on the weekends. [02:47:55] Speaker 3: Okay. So just because he's not present during the exchange, you come to the conclusion that he's not present during the whole time for parenting time. Is that right? [02:48:04] Speaker 7: Um, I don't know if he's traveling. I don't know where he is. So yes, that is correct. [02:48:09] Speaker 3: Okay. So that's a, a good point of distinction. You have no idea how the children are spending their time during their parenting time with Mr. Dreyer. Is that fair to say? [02:48:18] Speaker 7: Correct. [02:48:19] Speaker 3: All right. So every time that you've said that they're not spending time with them, you have no idea. [02:48:25] Speaker 7: That is correct. I mean, I didn't even know that they were enrolled in, um, daycare because it wasn't discussed. [02:48:33] Speaker 3: And might there be another reason that he chose to have a third party, uh, use, utilized for exchanges? [02:48:41] Speaker 7: I'm not sure why, no. [02:48:43] Speaker 3: You didn't try to file a personal protection order against him and there was a period where a third party had to be utilized for exchanges because of that, right? Before it was dropped? [02:48:52] Speaker 7: That's correct, but I'm referring to exchanges that just happened. Um, in the last two months. [02:48:57] Speaker 3: Right. So subsequent to that personal protection order, right? Correct. Yep. All right. And, um, visiting grandparents, are you, you're not present at the time when he visits with, with the grandparents, right? [02:49:09] Speaker 7: No. [02:49:10] Speaker 3: Do the children have a good relationship with their grandparents? [02:49:14] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:49:14] Speaker 3: Like to spend time with them? [02:49:17] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:49:18] Speaker 3: Do you, um, have you been to the home of the grandparents? [02:49:22] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:49:22] Speaker 3: And do they probably have more room than a two-bedroom apartment? [02:49:25] Speaker 7: Yes, but I think that during this situation, it's really important for Jacob to be establishing an environment at, um, his own home and not be taking the kids to his parents. I think the kids need to be raised by their father, not by their grandparents and father. [02:49:41] Speaker 3: All right. And are you, uh, do you ever have other, do you visit with friends during your parenting time? [02:49:45] Speaker 7: I do, but they're not two plus hours away because if there was a situation that were to happen, there was one this past January where my son got injured at the Children's Museum and I had to take him to the ER because he had to get stitches. Um, if that were to happen on the east side and I got a call from Jacob, I would have to drive two plus hours to go there. That's too far of a distance for my comfort for him. Um, I, I'd like to have noticed when he's going to be going to his grand, to his parents' house so that I can plan that they're going to be there and just be aware so that if something were to happen, I can make myself be present. [02:50:20] Speaker 3: You, you want to know where Jacob's exercising his parenting time and two hours away is too far. Is that what you're saying? Correct. Okay, and so therefore it doesn't really have anything to do with who is, um, exercising parenting time. It's the distance that's the problem. [02:50:37] Speaker 7: Um, I think it's both. [02:50:42] Speaker 3: Okay, um, and like I said, and you exercise all your parenting time all by yourself all the time. [02:50:49] Speaker 7: Yes. [02:50:50] Speaker 3: You never hang out with friends, go to, uh, your friends who have other children and hang out together. [02:50:57] Speaker 7: I do for play dates and then I come home and take care of my kids by myself. [02:51:00] Speaker 3: All right. And you would, you wouldn't visit a friend who's two hours away? I have not in the last year, um, and if you were to plan a trip on your parenting time, you would expect that Mr. Dreyer would get that information ahead of time, too? [02:51:18] Speaker 7: I did actually. I did plan a trip on my parenting time and let him know in advance. And he also passed me the distance of where I was going and I let him know as well. [02:51:28] Speaker 3: So just trying to reconcile this. You said you have not spent time two hours away and now you have spent time and told Mr. Dreyer about it. Is that right? [02:51:36] Speaker 7: No, I went on a vacation one hour away. I didn't visit a friend two hours away. Those are two different distinctions. Okay. All right. [02:51:44] Speaker 3: Um, would it be okay, um, I mean, would it be okay also to have a placeholder enrollment for, um, your son at a different school too, just in case he ended up someplace else? Or would you not agree with that? [02:52:03] Speaker 7: I would not agree with that because my question to that would be, why is that beneficial? How is that beneficial for my child to change schools right now? All right. That's my question. All right. I have no further questions. [02:52:16] Speaker ?: Ms. Schultz. [02:52:17] Speaker 6: Now, just briefly, Ms. Dreyer, do you have an issue with the children ever going to visit their grandparents on the east side? [02:52:27] Speaker 7: Um, I do have some concerns when it's a repetitive behavior like this. Um, I know that they are not the best company for my kids to always be in, the things that they repeat, they talk about the situation a lot. Um, and I just don't think that that's the environment that they need to be around. [02:52:47] Speaker 6: And in addition, is it the fact that they're driving so far every week? [02:52:54] Speaker 7: Yes, um, I don't think it's fair for them to be in a car for four plus hours within 48 hours parenting time. I think that that's just a loss in parenting time, honestly. And I don't know why his parents wouldn't come out here more often so that he doesn't have to sacrifice those hours in the car. [02:53:11] Speaker 3: I have no other questions. [02:53:13] Speaker 2: Ms. Wolfram. [02:53:16] Speaker 3: Again, are you present for these conversations? [02:53:20] Speaker 7: For what conversations? [02:53:22] Speaker 3: You say that they repeat things. Are you present? Have you heard that from the grandparents repeating conversations about the situation in front of your children? [02:53:30] Speaker 7: I've heard, um, my children repeat words that, that I did not say to them that they learned from other people. [02:53:37] Speaker 3: So you assume that's conversations with the grandparents, you haven't been present, right? Um, no. [02:53:42] Speaker 7: Okay. [02:53:43] Speaker 3: All right. All right. No further questions. [02:53:46] Speaker 2: Ms. Schultz? No, thank you. All right. Thank you. Um, I am looking at the clock. It is now 4:46. I think this is probably. [02:53:55] Speaker 1: Well, it's almost 4:00 a.m. here, so I'm not going to say much, except to say, now I can't believe anything that person said. Because so many lies were pointed out. So much self-serving testimony was pointed out. It was crazy. So I just, I don't believe anything she said. Everything she said was self-serving. And she's very controlling. She wants to control everything. It's her way or the highway. That's pretty much what it sounds like. And she has no problem ignoring court orders. She doesn't care. It's best for her little ones. That's all she has to say. And then it's all okay in her mind. Anyway, that's all I'm going to say about this. Thank you guys so much for watching. Hopefully there will be more tomorrow night. Or wait, later on Tuesday. Or Wednesday morning. We'll see if she comes back. So thank you guys so much for watching. Please hit the like button. Type this video. And I will see you all next time.