"Sanctimony doesn't balance the books" — Nick Clegg on Andy Burnham, tuition fees and big tech

[0:00] The system as it's now evolved is completely indefensible and I would now be on the barricades advocating wholesale reform. [0:07] It's the erogenous zone of the Labour Party activists, you know, it's Maggie Thatcher, it's the 1980s. [0:12] The worry I have is that there's now almost no party that appears viscerally on the side of wealth creators. [0:19] They're behaving in an increasingly Chinese way. [0:22] It's technology which is at the one hand extraordinarily versatile and powerful and revolutionary [0:27] and on the other hand, deeply inefficient and stupid. [0:37] So, Sir Nick Clegg was the Westminster School head prefect who went on to be the head boy of the Liberal Democrats, [0:43] Britain's third largest political party, before becoming Deputy Prime Minister in the Coalition Government from 2010 to 2015, [0:49] serving with Conservative David Cameron. [0:51] No Prime Minister or Deputy has lasted so long in office since. [0:55] So, what are the lessons for, as there's another appeal for stability in our politics, [1:01] any advice for a fellow Cambridge graduate on how to avoid going from a poll pleaser to the most hated man in Britain? [1:07] Nick Clegg, thanks for joining us. [1:09] Thank you, what a great introduction. [1:11] Let's start right at the beginning. [1:12] Yeah. [1:12] Was there a moment when a young Nick Clegg thought he wanted to be Prime Minister? [1:18] No, oddly enough, politics slightly sort of crept up on me. [1:23] I didn't, I mean, in other words, I wasn't a sort of William Hague figure who said, [1:26] I, you know, spy at age 16 to give speeches at, you know, party political conferences and so on. [1:33] And I did a number of things before I sort of entered into politics full time, [1:39] worked as an EU trade negotiator, dabbled a bit in journalism and so on and so forth. [1:43] So, it, I mean, I can't say late because I was in my sort of 20s when I started my political career, [1:50] but it wasn't something that I felt from, you know, the age of when I was knee high to a grasshopper [1:57] that I was going to go into politics. [1:58] But, and, of course, I chose to join a party that, since its foundation had never been anywhere near power, [2:06] I remember when I said to, I worked for a while as a policy advisor, not in a political capacity, [2:17] to a former Conservative cabinet minister, Sir Leon Britton, when he was the EU trade negotiator. [2:25] And I was helping him in his team with, you know, really interesting things like getting, [2:30] helping to negotiate China's accession into the World Trade Organization and so on. [2:34] And I remember saying to him that I was going to join the Liberal Democrats. [2:37] And he said, oh, for God's sake, that's like joining an NGO. [2:39] So, you know, it's not, so joining the Liberal Democrats was not a route to, [2:44] it was not considered to be a conventional route to high office when I joined. [2:48] So, why the Liberal Democrats then? [2:49] Because your background, you know, privately educated, you went to Cambridge, [2:53] clearly there was even rumours at one point. [2:55] Did you join the Conservatives at university? [2:57] I've seen these rumours. I don't think I ever did. [2:59] But, anyway. [3:00] You must have had a good time at university if you can't remember. [3:02] So, why then the Liberal Democrats? [3:03] If you wanted to achieve power, it was an eccentric choice? [3:09] Well, because I guess I'm like a lot of people. [3:13] My motivation to get involved wasn't sort of, you know, [3:17] I wasn't trying to construct a curriculum vitae. [3:19] I was very inspired by Paddy Ashdown. [3:24] I say to the millions out there who are concerned about poverty [3:28] and about unemployment, come and join us. [3:31] I was quite motivated by things that have motivated my politics all my life, [3:36] whether it's constitutional reform, civil liberties, education, [3:41] a commitment to multilateralism in Europe and so on. [3:44] And so the Lib Dems, I mean, just listen to that list. [3:47] It's the sort of top ten, top five hits of the kind of things [3:51] that the Liberal, the Liberal Democrats have always espoused. [3:54] And also I was, I had from quite an early stage a pretty visceral dislike, [4:00] which I have certainly retained throughout all the ups and downs [4:04] of my political career, now beyond politics, [4:06] of the kind of slightly sort of stuck, mouldy, two-party kind of system [4:12] in this country. [4:12] I just, I just always felt very restless when confronted with this idea [4:17] that you either had to vote for the blue team or the red team. [4:19] And if you, if your family voted for the blue team or the red team, [4:21] you should do as well, if your community did, you should as well. [4:25] So not that I was in any way prescient about it, [4:28] but I think I certainly felt at a very early stage something [4:30] which has now clearly manifested itself, [4:33] which is the idea that there are only two choices in politics [4:36] is patently absurd as much as it is in the rest of life. [4:39] My election as leader today marks a new beginning. [4:45] Today is about two things, ambition and change. [4:50] So I was always very, I was always very keen, [4:53] I like the idea of siding with the underdog. [4:55] I like the idea of being part of a disruptive force in politics. [5:01] I think disruption is good. [5:02] I think innovation is good. [5:03] I think change is good. [5:05] And look, politics, British politics particularly, [5:07] and you know this, in the sort of hammer-beamed, [5:11] oak-panelled settings of Westminster, [5:13] it's just unbelievably sort of backward-looking, nostalgic, [5:17] sort of stuffy, and you're sort of drowned, [5:21] you're almost suffocated by the past, [5:23] physically and architecturally and ceremonially in Westminster. [5:26] I found all of that quite off-putting right from the outset, [5:30] and certainly under the leadership of someone like Paddy Ashdown, [5:33] who became an incredibly close friend and mentor, [5:36] I still miss him to this day, [5:37] I liked his restlessness to kind of break that all open. [5:43] So take me back to that moment in 2010, [5:44] the first Liberal, brackets, Democrat, [5:47] to go into Downing Street since Lloyd George. [5:49] There you are in the Rose Garden, [5:51] alongside David Cameron, [5:52] exchanging your vows at this civil ceremony. [5:56] What's going through your mind? [5:57] That wasn't actually the point of that, [5:59] but if you want to brand it as such, yeah. [6:00] What's going through your mind at that moment? [6:02] Prime Minister, do you now regret [6:03] when once asked what your favourite joke was, [6:06] you replied Nick Clegg, [6:07] and Deputy Prime Minister, what do you think of that? [6:09] We're all going to have. [6:11] I'm afraid I did once. [6:15] We're all... [6:18] Well, firstly, you're just... [6:19] I mean, I know politicians don't deserve sympathy, [6:22] but do not... [6:23] I mean, your viewers should not underestimate [6:24] how physically exhausting politics is, [6:27] particularly at campaign time. [6:28] It's a physically punishing vocation, [6:31] much more than I think people realise. [6:33] Often when young people say, [6:35] oh, you know, should I go into politics, [6:36] what advice do you have? [6:37] My advice always is, one, [6:39] please do something before you go into politics [6:41] so you can fall back on it [6:42] because the best politicians are the politicians [6:44] who know they can walk away from it. [6:46] The worst politicians are those who cling on to it [6:47] because it means they don't take unpopular [6:49] or difficult decisions. [6:50] And secondly, I say, [6:52] keep yourself physically strong. [6:53] It's very... [6:53] So, you know, David Cameron and I [6:56] would have been absolutely exhausted. [6:59] Thank you very much indeed for coming. [7:00] Thank you very much. [7:03] Forward an election campaign, [7:04] then all those sleepless nights [7:05] of trying to assemble the coalition agreement [7:08] agreement under the sort of duress [7:12] of market turmoil at the time, [7:14] a real feeling that we were standing [7:15] on the edge of a sort of fiscal precipice. [7:17] So I think my sensation on that day, [7:20] on that sunny morning, [7:21] was just one of immense relief [7:23] that, you know, I'd received telephone calls [7:26] from, you know, denizens of the British establishment [7:29] and from the government of the Bank of England saying, [7:32] please, this country desperately needs stability. [7:34] Remember, this was the weekend after the election, [7:37] the election was held on a Thursday. [7:39] That weekend, all of our television screens [7:42] were filled with images of cars burning [7:45] on the streets of Athens, [7:47] governments being toppled one after the other [7:48] across Europe, [7:49] fiscal and banking crisis [7:51] spreading across the whole continent. [7:53] Shortly after I came into government, [7:55] I remember a rather unflinching expressionless [7:58] Treasury official saying to me, [8:01] you do realise, Deputy Prime Minister, [8:02] that the full liabilities of the British banking system [8:06] after the banking crash in 2008 [8:09] are five times the size of the whole British economy. [8:13] And so, you know, the sense of fragility, [8:17] I mean, real, almost existential fragility in a country, [8:20] people, because so many events have happened since, [8:22] and we've arguably punched ourselves in the face [8:25] so many times as a country since then, [8:26] I think it is almost impossible to exaggerate [8:30] the significance of how fragile and tenuous things felt [8:34] after the financial crash right up to that moment. [8:37] So I think an immense sense of relief [8:39] that at least we assembled a government, [8:42] a government which, of course, [8:43] immediately in the commentary at an elsewhere [8:46] was going to, you know, [8:47] was branded as something that was here today, [8:48] gone tomorrow, [8:49] would perish within six months [8:51] because Disraeli famously said [8:52] that Britain doesn't like coalitions. [8:55] And as you say, irony of ironies, [8:56] we look back on it a decade and a half later, [8:59] and it's a government composed of two parties [9:01] that appears to be much more durable [9:03] than parties, governments composed of one party. [9:06] I actually looked it up. [9:07] It had, between 2010 and 2015, [9:08] the same Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister, [9:10] Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, Business Secretary, [9:12] Community Secretary, Work and Pages Secretary, [9:14] and your work minister for five years. [9:16] Yeah. [9:17] Do you think we'll ever see that again? [9:18] Well, I think one of the things, again, [9:20] I'm not going to claim I predicted this, [9:22] and you should ask David Cameron, [9:24] I don't think he did either, [9:25] but I think one of the things, [9:26] unintended and perhaps unintended virtues [9:29] of the coalition is it's so painstaking [9:32] assembling a coalition [9:34] and a program for government [9:35] and such a painstaking thing [9:38] to decide who sits around the cabinet table [9:40] that as the two leaders, [9:42] I was the leader of the Liberal Democrats, [9:43] he was the leader of the Conservatives, [9:44] you kind of are pretty disinclined [9:46] to keep reopening that [9:48] because you just reopen the whole Rubik's Cube [9:49] of exactly which Secretary of State [9:53] is from which party and so on. [9:55] So there's a weird political incentive [9:57] which leans towards stability, [10:00] and it's almost the contrary of everything. [10:04] If you listen to people [10:05] who object to multi-party government [10:07] in this country, [10:08] and they're usually the same people [10:09] who object to any electoral form, [10:10] they say, no, we'll end up like Israel or Italy. [10:13] And actually, the experience [10:14] of coalition government, [10:15] since that was the only coalition government [10:17] that has governed this country [10:18] for any period of time since the war, [10:21] is that it, oddly enough, [10:23] in governing terms, does the opposite. [10:25] I mean, we shouldn't perhaps get too rose-tinted [10:27] about what happened during your time in government. [10:29] You went from being held, at one point, [10:30] as being more popular than Churchill [10:32] before the election. [10:34] I'm not sure if you're like me, [10:34] but the more they attack each other, [10:36] the more they sound exactly the same. [10:37] So then after you troubled tuition fees, [10:40] there were sort of effigies [10:40] being burnt of you in the street. [10:42] On a human level, [10:44] what is that like [10:45] when you're flicking through the papers [10:46] or watching TV [10:47] that people are hanging you from a lamppost? [10:51] I mean, I wouldn't recommend it to people, likely. [10:54] It's not, you know... [10:56] Having said that, [10:58] firstly, I actually had spent quite a bit of time... [11:04] Well, two things. [11:04] Firstly, I'd set up, quietly, [11:06] a team with David Laws, Danny Alexander, [11:09] Andrew Stunnell, Chris Hewn, [11:10] about, I think, eight, ten months [11:11] before the election to sort of plan, [11:13] which is one of the reasons why, [11:14] in pure negotiating terms, [11:17] the Liberal Democrats were so very, very successful. [11:19] And if you look at the... [11:20] Just take all the kind of politics out of it [11:22] and just look dispassionately [11:23] at the coalition agreement, [11:25] whether it was raising the point [11:26] at which people pay income tax, [11:27] whether it was the introduction of pupil premium, [11:29] I could go on. [11:30] But actually, [11:31] it was a devastatingly successful [11:32] negotiating strategy [11:35] to ensure that the Liberal Democrat manifesto [11:37] was very fully reflected in it. [11:40] Of course, famously not reflected on one policy [11:43] to do with university financing and so on, [11:47] which I can come back to. [11:49] But at the same time, [11:50] I also spoke to a number of Liberal Party leaders [11:52] in Europe who'd gone into coalition. [11:54] And as you know, [11:55] my mother's Dutch, [11:56] I'm half Dutch, [11:56] I speak Dutch. [11:57] So I spent particularly time [11:59] with friends in Dutch politics. [12:01] I know the country very well, [12:02] love it. [12:03] And they all literally said to me, [12:05] you will be absolutely hammered. [12:07] Because... [12:07] And if you look at the FDP in Germany, [12:09] if you look at the... [12:10] Well, there are two Liberal parties [12:11] in the Netherlands. [12:12] They literally have this rollercoaster pattern. [12:15] You go up, [12:16] you know, [12:16] in opposition, [12:17] you go into government, [12:18] you go up. [12:18] If you're the smaller party [12:20] in coalition, [12:21] I don't know whether this is for psychological [12:23] or anthropological reasons, [12:25] but the smaller party tends to get dumped on [12:28] and blamed for all the bad stuff. [12:29] And the larger party [12:30] tends to be able to showcase all the good stuff. [12:33] So I was braced, [12:35] absolutely braced. [12:36] And of course, [12:37] I also knew that in the wake of 2008, [12:40] whoever was in government, [12:41] and it's one of the things I think, [12:43] really to their deep shame, [12:44] the Labour Party chose [12:45] to almost instantly forget, [12:47] which is they actually had a plan, [12:49] which they'd legislated for, [12:50] to reduce the deficit more quickly [12:53] than David Cameron and myself [12:55] and George Osborne [12:56] and Dalia Alexander [12:57] eventually did during the coalition. [12:59] So whoever was in power at that time [13:01] would have to take basically [13:02] deeply unpopular decisions. [13:04] It's never popular [13:05] to restrain public spending. [13:07] So I was braced for all of that. [13:10] Can I put my hand on my heart [13:12] and say that I knew exactly how [13:14] and in what way [13:15] and for what reason? [13:17] No, of course not. [13:19] But don't go into politics [13:21] if you're trying. [13:21] Don't go into politics. [13:23] And certainly don't go into high office [13:24] if you want to smell like roses all the time. [13:27] I think you said rose, [13:28] we're using the rose analogy too much. [13:30] But the reason I say this [13:33] is I take a slightly old-fashioned view [13:35] that you're in government, [13:40] you are in positions of great authority [13:43] in order to take tough [13:44] and difficult decisions. [13:45] If it was easy, [13:46] someone else could do it. [13:47] If it was easy, [13:48] I mean, that's the whole point [13:50] of government is trade-offs. [13:51] And by the way, [13:52] those trade-offs [13:53] are particularly difficult [13:55] when there's very little money. [13:57] And remember, [13:58] you famously got that note [13:59] from the outgoing Labour [14:00] Chief Secretary of the Treasury [14:01] who said there's no money. [14:03] So you're dealing [14:04] with a pot of money [14:06] which is either stagnant [14:07] or shrinking. [14:08] You are confronted [14:10] with a series of invidious choices. [14:11] And I find it odd [14:14] when people appear [14:17] to want to go into government [14:18] and then shirk [14:21] the inevitable duty you have [14:24] to just make a decision. [14:26] Just choose. [14:27] And most of the time [14:28] that choice, [14:28] and I certainly found this, [14:30] and I'm sure David Cameron [14:31] felt the same, [14:32] most of the choices you're making [14:33] are choices [14:34] which are going to make [14:36] someone unhappy. [14:37] And I think that willingness [14:41] to take choices, [14:42] certainly for the first, [14:43] I'd say, [14:44] three, three and a half years [14:45] of the coalition [14:46] was something which, [14:48] did we make the right choices? [14:49] We can have a debate about that. [14:50] And I absolutely, [14:51] totally, [14:52] hands up, [14:52] I think there were some choices [14:53] which haven't stood [14:54] the test of time, [14:55] others have. [14:56] But it was oddly [14:57] a government, [14:58] not only that was stable [15:00] in terms of its personnel, [15:01] but had real appetite, [15:03] had a sort of bias to action. [15:05] And I think that's an important lesson [15:07] from that time. [15:08] She agrees, [15:09] we all agree across [15:10] all sides of this house, [15:12] that graduates should make [15:14] some contribution [15:15] for the benefit [15:16] of going to university. [15:17] The question is how. [15:19] We have a progressive plan, [15:20] she has no plan whatsoever. [15:23] If you had your time again, [15:24] would you do something differently [15:24] on tuition fees? [15:27] Well, it's easy to say, [15:29] but I'm not going to pretend [15:30] that the dilemma [15:30] was one that I could have just, [15:32] I didn't have a magic wand. [15:33] I mean, let's remember, [15:35] without perhaps going, [15:38] raking over the coals [15:39] of the whole thing. [15:40] But remember, [15:41] we'd inherited [15:41] a tuition fee system, [15:43] which the coalition didn't invent. [15:45] I didn't invent it. [15:45] It was the Labour Party [15:46] actually introduced tuition fees. [15:48] Oddly enough, [15:49] it's actually, [15:49] but the reason I say this, [15:50] so there's a structure [15:51] of tuition fees. [15:52] And then we inherited [15:53] this report [15:53] that actually Peter Mandelson [15:55] had commissioned [15:55] from Lord Brown. [15:57] I think in his report, [15:58] actually, [15:58] he advocated [15:59] no upper limit [16:00] to fees at all. [16:00] Anyway, we looked at it, [16:01] we looked at it. [16:01] I desperately wanted to introduce, [16:03] in effect, [16:03] a graduate tax. [16:04] I was then, [16:05] I got the Treasury and stuff [16:07] to look at that for ages, [16:08] and they said [16:08] for various accounting [16:10] and fiscal reasons [16:10] that couldn't be the case. [16:12] It's a question of choice. [16:13] If you didn't do something [16:15] to alter the balance [16:18] between what the taxpayer paid [16:19] and students paid back [16:21] after they graduated, [16:23] then you'd have to take [16:23] that money from apprenticeships [16:24] or from primary education [16:27] or from secondary education. [16:29] And of course, [16:30] what we did at that time, [16:31] I'm not at all [16:32] defending the system. [16:32] I think the system [16:33] as it's now evolved [16:34] is completely indefensible. [16:36] I would now be on the barricades [16:37] advocating wholesale reform [16:39] because how it's turned out [16:42] is absolutely not [16:42] how we introduced it. [16:43] It has been messed about [16:44] with by government [16:45] after government [16:45] after government. [16:46] They haven't raised [16:46] the point at which people [16:47] have to pay back. [16:49] They scrapped grants [16:51] which we'd introduced [16:52] and so on. [16:53] But here's the thing, [16:54] here's the choice. [16:55] In doing what we did, [16:56] we actually exempted [16:57] the university sector [16:58] from austerity. [16:59] It's why vice chancellors [17:01] refer to that time now, [17:02] would you believe it, [17:02] amongst themselves [17:03] as the golden age [17:04] because all the other parts [17:07] of the public sector [17:08] are having to deal [17:08] with real restraint [17:09] on spending. [17:10] And because we introduced [17:11] the changes we did, [17:12] building on the system [17:13] we inherited, [17:14] reacting to a report [17:15] commissioned by the [17:16] previous Labour government, [17:18] not in any way [17:19] ducking the controversy of it, [17:21] certainly not ducking [17:22] the political consequences [17:23] for me and my party [17:24] and certainly not defending [17:26] what it has become now, [17:27] which is a totally warped version [17:29] of what it was. [17:30] But at that time, [17:32] what we did was exempt [17:34] our higher education system [17:35] from austerity altogether [17:36] and I passionately believe [17:39] that one of the great assets [17:40] of this country, [17:41] in addition to our language, [17:43] our creativity, [17:43] our ingenuity, [17:45] is our science [17:46] and university base [17:47] and it frustrates me enormously [17:49] that because of the controversies [17:50] which have been attached [17:52] to university financing, [17:54] not least, you know, [17:55] witness my political career [17:57] and so on, [17:58] Clearly the results [17:59] have been immeasurably [18:01] more crushing [18:01] and unkind [18:03] than I could ever have feared. [18:05] For that, of course, [18:07] I must take responsibility [18:09] and therefore I announce [18:10] that I will be resigning [18:12] as leader of the Liberal Democrats. [18:14] This government [18:15] and previous governments, [18:16] and I hope Burnham [18:18] doesn't duck this, [18:19] keep ducking [18:20] the big structural questions. [18:22] We're killing [18:22] our university system [18:24] by not taking big, bold decisions. [18:26] You can argue [18:27] the big decisions [18:28] we took in the past [18:29] were right or wrong. [18:30] I'm perfectly prepared [18:31] to take that on the chin. [18:32] But inaction, [18:34] inaction is inflicting [18:35] real, real cost [18:37] to our intellectual capital [18:39] in this country right now [18:40] and that's one of the few things [18:41] we, I think, [18:42] should treasure [18:43] at a time [18:43] when we've obviously [18:44] dislocated ourselves [18:46] from our European hinterland [18:47] and we don't any longer, [18:49] we can't any longer rely [18:50] on the special relationship [18:51] with the United States. [18:53] Let's turn to Andy Burnham. [18:54] We must recognise [18:55] that this generation [18:56] of politicians, [18:58] myself included, [19:00] have failed to challenge [19:01] a political culture [19:02] and an economic model [19:04] that simply doesn't work [19:06] well enough [19:06] for ordinary people. [19:08] A lot of the language [19:09] he's using now [19:09] is you used [19:11] before you entered government, [19:12] you know, [19:13] Westminster's not working, [19:14] it's a fusty building [19:14] detached from the people, [19:15] the two-party system [19:16] and all of that. [19:18] I think I looked up, [19:19] I think you did overlap [19:20] at Cambridge University, [19:21] I don't know if you knew them, [19:21] you definitely overlapped [19:22] in the House of Commons. [19:23] Did you ever look at Andy Burnham [19:25] and think that's a prime minister [19:25] in waiting? [19:26] I actually, [19:27] I struggle to think [19:29] whether we've, [19:30] I just think we were [19:31] slightly different circles, [19:32] different times and so on, [19:33] so I'm not going to pretend [19:33] I know Andy Burnham at all. [19:35] So I go on what I hear [19:37] he says publicly [19:37] as much as anyone else [19:38] and what I hear publicly [19:39] at the moment, [19:41] it might change [19:42] because of course [19:42] he's been in a very [19:43] inward-facing phase [19:45] of his bid, [19:47] for leadership [19:47] facing the Labour Party [19:49] but comes across to me [19:50] at least [19:50] as extraordinarily [19:52] retro Labour. [19:54] Four decades [19:55] of the neoliberalism [19:56] that began in the 1980s [19:58] have not been kind [19:59] to the places [20:00] that built our party. [20:02] I mean this whole thing [20:03] of returning to the big, [20:04] you know, [20:04] the classic hits for, [20:06] it really is the sort of, [20:07] it's the erogenous zone [20:08] of the Labour Party activists, [20:09] you know, [20:09] it's Maggie Thatcher, [20:10] it's the 1980s, [20:12] it's privatisation [20:13] and I think [20:14] I found it very peculiar [20:16] indeed [20:16] that when he gave his speech, [20:18] do you remember, [20:18] it was a couple of weeks ago [20:19] or maybe more [20:20] in Manchester [20:21] which was going to be [20:21] the sort of scene-setting speech [20:23] about the economy. [20:24] Are you ready for this? [20:28] And he mentioned the 1980s [20:29] and didn't mention [20:30] artificial intelligence at all [20:31] and listening to him [20:37] and some of the people [20:37] around him [20:38] on the economy, [20:40] they seem very fixated [20:41] on one part [20:42] of the economic jigsaw [20:44] which is how you regulate utilities. [20:46] On utilities, [20:47] we will ensure [20:48] all parts of the UK [20:49] are able to take [20:51] greater public control [20:53] of essential services [20:54] like water, housing, [20:57] energy and transport. [20:59] Whether it's buses in Manchester [21:01] or water, utilities and trade, [21:03] by the way, [21:04] that's a perfectly legitimate debate [21:05] and I actually have some sympathy [21:06] with their impatience [21:08] of the current status quo [21:09] but that's actually not [21:11] what makes a vibrant [21:12] and dynamic economy. [21:13] I mean, [21:14] how you regulate utilities [21:15] is an important [21:15] public policy issue. [21:17] It has almost nothing to do [21:19] with the dynamic animal spirits [21:22] which you need [21:23] to instill in an economy. [21:25] What makes economies grow, [21:27] it's not what governments say, [21:28] it's not a declaratory speech [21:31] from a Labour politician [21:32] saying there shall be growth [21:33] and saying it on Tuesday [21:34] and expecting it'll suddenly happen [21:35] on a Thursday. [21:36] It's not a lever you pull [21:38] in Whitehall. [21:40] You have to set [21:42] the macroeconomic context [21:43] and the stability [21:46] as we have to provide [21:47] the stability as well [21:48] for people who really create wealth. [21:50] It's the entrepreneurs, [21:51] it's the business leaders, [21:52] it's the people [21:52] who take that extra loan [21:54] to create that extra job, [21:56] to try out that extra new line [21:58] in the products they're producing, [22:00] all the services [22:00] they're trying to sell. [22:01] It's millions of small decisions [22:04] which aggregate [22:05] into a big economic effect. [22:08] And if I look back [22:09] on my time in government, [22:11] what I realize is [22:12] all the decisions [22:14] which occupy the news cycles [22:16] and consume all the oxygen [22:18] in Westminster, [22:19] they're almost always [22:20] not really the important ones. [22:21] The important ones [22:22] are just the big judgments. [22:23] You've got broadly [22:24] the balance right [22:25] between fiscal policy [22:26] and monetary policy. [22:27] So we ran a relatively tight, [22:28] not nearly as demonically tight [22:30] fiscal policy [22:31] as critics from the left say, [22:33] far from it. [22:34] But the monetary policy [22:35] was extremely loose. [22:37] Remember quantitative easing [22:38] and so on, [22:38] so a lot of money [22:39] was flooding into the thing. [22:40] We protected [22:41] the pretty flexible [22:44] labour markets in the UK [22:46] which I think have subsequently [22:47] become gummed up [22:48] with new rules. [22:50] We invested in the science base. [22:52] We protected [22:52] our university system [22:56] in the way [22:57] that I described earlier. [23:00] We kept tax down [23:02] on innovation, [23:03] entrepreneurship. [23:04] These are the basic [23:04] building blocks [23:05] and then you have to just [23:06] kind of persist in that [23:08] to allow those organic [23:11] minute by minute, [23:13] hour by hour decisions [23:14] which are taken [23:14] by business leaders [23:15] and entrepreneurs [23:15] around the world, [23:16] around the country [23:17] to foster growth. [23:19] And all I hear from Labour [23:20] is this really old-fashioned view [23:22] that economics is all about [23:25] how you regulate utilities [23:26] and that it's somehow [23:28] that government invents. [23:30] Governments don't invent growth. [23:32] And the thing that is so peculiar, [23:34] to me at least, [23:35] is that Napoleon called us [23:38] a nation of shopkeepers [23:39] for a good reason. [23:40] We've always been a culture [23:41] of small business. [23:43] We're good at innovating [23:45] and inventing new things. [23:47] We're pretty bad, [23:48] by the way, [23:49] sometimes building them [23:50] into global companies [23:51] which is a separate dilemma [23:53] we need to face as a country. [23:55] But traditionally, [23:56] British politics [23:57] has always been [23:57] very well served [23:58] by a party. [24:00] It was traditionally [24:01] the Conservative Party [24:02] but I think you could [24:02] make the same case [24:03] for the Blairite Labour Party [24:05] and dare I say it, [24:06] sort of orange book liberals [24:07] like myself [24:08] who had a visceral belief [24:11] in the value [24:12] of wealth creation, [24:15] of entrepreneurship, [24:15] innovation. [24:16] And the worry I have [24:17] is that there's now [24:18] almost no party [24:19] that appears viscerally [24:21] on the side [24:22] of wealth creators. [24:24] The left and the centre left [24:26] is always more comfortable [24:27] to talk about [24:28] how you divvy up the cake [24:29] rather than how you [24:31] grow it in the first place. [24:33] And the right has now [24:34] gone down this sort of [24:34] post-Brexit [24:35] cul-de-sac [24:36] of culture wars [24:36] and so on. [24:37] So just at the time [24:38] we need people [24:39] who really understand [24:40] what makes the animal spirits [24:43] really come to life [24:44] in the British economy. [24:45] It's as if [24:46] all of these parties [24:48] don't really speak [24:49] to that need. [24:50] You sound [24:51] sort of politically homeless. [24:54] Well... [24:55] Are you still [24:56] a Liberal Democrat? [24:57] Of course I'm still [24:58] a Liberal Democrat. [24:58] Absolutely. [24:59] But is that out of habit [25:00] rather than because [25:01] you think that they're... [25:02] In your analysis [25:04] the Liberal Democrats [25:05] aren't making that case either. [25:06] I mean the interesting thing [25:07] of course [25:08] with the Liberal Democrats [25:08] is that they... [25:10] The seats that they hold [25:11] are very, very different [25:13] to the seats [25:13] that the Liberal Democrats [25:14] held when I was [25:15] leader for eight years [25:16] in the party. [25:17] It's now become... [25:18] Which I think is actually [25:19] a really good thing [25:20] for the future prospects [25:21] of the party. [25:22] It's become much more English [25:23] much more in southern England [25:25] but very much part... [25:27] It's much more conservative [25:28] isn't it? [25:29] Well it's much more... [25:30] Old shire seats [25:31] Yeah I mean to me [25:32] you know [25:32] Liberal Democrats [25:34] dominate Surrey. [25:35] I think they have almost [25:35] all the MPs in Yorkshire. [25:37] That's almost unthinkable [25:38] from my time... [25:38] But can it then be [25:38] the radical left [25:39] if it's essentially [25:40] representing old [25:41] tall shire seats? [25:42] The Liberal Democrats [25:42] should not be trying [25:43] to compete with the Greens [25:45] or with the left. [25:47] There is an agenda [25:49] what I would call [25:50] almost Gladstonian liberalism [25:53] which advocates dynamism, [25:57] entrepreneurship, [25:58] innovation, wealth creation [25:59] because it understands [26:00] that social justice, [26:01] well-funded public services [26:02] are simply not possible [26:04] if you don't support [26:07] those who create wealth [26:08] and produce the tax revenues [26:10] in the first place. [26:11] It's so simple [26:12] most voters understand that [26:13] for some reason [26:14] the way the sort of [26:16] shopping trolley [26:17] in politics works [26:18] the shopping trolley [26:19] on the left [26:20] and centre left [26:20] always veers to [26:22] how do you take [26:25] from the business community [26:26] to allocate elsewhere [26:28] rather than [26:28] how do you actually... [26:29] You're making the case [26:30] but then critics [26:32] of the Liberal Democrats [26:33] right now would be [26:34] would say that [26:35] you know [26:35] Ed David just goes [26:36] on a zip wire [26:37] to say he doesn't like [26:38] sewage in rivers [26:39] and actually wants [26:39] more regulation [26:40] and you're back to [26:40] talking about [26:41] regulating utilities again. [26:42] Well I actually don't think [26:44] having spoken to Ed [26:45] I don't think Ed [26:45] I mean firstly I think [26:46] I think the criticisms [26:48] Ed's had for putting [26:49] a smile on voters' faces [26:50] is wholly unfair [26:51] I think it's a [26:52] you know I think [26:52] in the last election [26:53] I think it was quite right [26:56] for him to strike us [26:57] on a different tone [26:58] it's always very difficult [26:58] for Liberal Democrat leaders [26:59] to get a hearing [27:00] on the [27:10] and secondly I think [27:11] it's a great thing [27:12] that Ed has led [27:13] on policy debates [27:14] like social care reform [27:15] which he cares about [27:16] passionately [27:17] has a considerable amount [27:18] of course personal experience [27:20] and also on pollution [27:22] in our rivers [27:23] and the travesty [27:24] of the way [27:24] that the water industry [27:25] is currently structured [27:26] it's not either or [27:29] you can do that [27:30] but you also must [27:32] at this time [27:33] at this time [27:33] I mean I predict [27:34] that by the next [27:35] He's not doing that [27:35] he's not making the case [27:36] of wealth creation [27:37] Well give him a chance [27:39] the three years [27:39] to the next election [27:40] I think it's [27:42] at least to me [27:43] I'm not obviously [27:43] in politics anymore [27:45] so maybe I'm misinterpreting [27:47] the signals from a distance [27:48] but I think [27:49] where as the Americans say [27:50] where the puck is going [27:51] in British politics [27:52] by the next election [27:54] there will be [27:54] an increasing appetite [27:55] certainly amongst people [27:57] who create jobs [27:58] employ our kids [27:59] and our grandkids [28:00] hold the future [28:01] of the prosperity [28:02] of the country [28:02] in their hands [28:03] there will be [28:04] an increasing sense [28:05] that they're overtaxed [28:06] overregulated [28:07] and overlooked [28:08] by government [28:09] and they will want [28:09] people in politics [28:10] who understand [28:11] that this country [28:13] can only be strong [28:14] and at peace [28:15] and you can only [28:16] have social justice [28:16] if you celebrate [28:18] wealth creation [28:18] I know you probably [28:19] won't appreciate this [28:20] but you sound more [28:20] like Kemi Batenop [28:21] than Ed Davey [28:22] in terms of your analysis [28:22] of what's wrong [28:23] with the country [28:24] I actually really disagree [28:25] I mean I personally [28:29] have always been [28:30] I mean I don't think [28:31] you can ever point [28:31] to anything I've said [28:32] in all the years [28:33] that I've been [28:33] was active in politics [28:34] close to 20 years [28:35] I was you know [28:36] I think one of the first [28:37] things I did [28:37] would you believe it [28:38] before I went to [28:39] Westminster [28:39] when I was a young [28:41] wet behind the ears [28:42] member of the European [28:43] Parliament [28:43] I passed [28:44] I passed [28:45] was the architect [28:47] of legislation [28:48] that liberalised [28:49] would you believe [28:49] the telecom system [28:50] in Europe [28:51] this is way back now [28:52] I will try and be brief [28:53] on what is actually [28:54] a rather complex topic [28:56] I think it's a very [28:57] liberal view [28:59] that ingenuity [29:02] invention [29:03] creativity [29:04] dynamism [29:05] being disruptive [29:08] are things you should [29:09] celebrate [29:10] and I think [29:11] there will be [29:11] an increasing [29:12] appetite for that [29:13] because unless [29:14] I've misunderstood [29:15] Andy Burnham [29:16] and his cabinet [29:17] I think even if [29:18] they had the best [29:19] plan in the world [29:19] they don't have [29:20] much time to execute [29:21] it because there has [29:21] to be an election [29:22] within three years [29:23] so far [29:24] I mean by the way [29:25] I think there's [29:26] some good people [29:27] around the cabinet [29:27] table [29:27] I think their new [29:29] AI minister [29:30] is exceptionally good [29:32] really knows his stuff [29:34] but as an overall [29:36] proposition [29:37] I don't think [29:39] they displayed [29:40] any deep [29:42] understanding [29:42] of what it is [29:43] to really revitalise [29:45] the green shoots [29:46] of entrepreneurship [29:47] and growth [29:48] in the British economy [29:49] and you had to [29:50] balance the books [29:51] and the coalition [29:52] government chose [29:53] austerity to do that [29:54] we're now back [29:56] in the questions [29:57] again of Andy Burnham [29:58] says he wants to [29:58] take tax off this [29:59] and cap that [30:00] and how has he [30:01] got to pay for it [30:01] and it's all a bit [30:02] unclear [30:03] do you see someone [30:06] there ready to take [30:07] the sort of tough [30:08] decisions you're talking [30:09] about to balance the books [30:10] I honestly [30:13] let's wait and see [30:14] is the fairest thing [30:16] to say [30:16] I think the Labour Party [30:18] has a real cultural problem [30:20] they took a fateful decision [30:22] in 2010 [30:24] after they lost election [30:25] which was instead [30:27] of acknowledging [30:27] the gravity [30:30] of the macroeconomic [30:31] situation we were in [30:33] because basically the goose [30:35] that was laying [30:35] these golden eggs [30:36] in the city of London [30:37] literally I don't know [30:38] whether you can blow up [30:39] golden geese [30:39] but you know what I mean [30:40] it just sort of blown up [30:42] and the whole economic model [30:43] of services based wealth [30:46] in the south east [30:47] and in London [30:48] in particular [30:48] in financial services [30:49] and then distributing [30:50] that largesse [30:51] across the country [30:51] I certainly felt that [30:53] as a Sheffield MP [30:54] South Yorkshire MP [30:55] that we were in a sense [30:56] basically reliant [30:57] on money being [30:58] moved up the M1 [31:00] from the wealth creation [31:01] in London [31:01] the city of London [31:02] that model broke [31:03] it stopped [31:04] and we were permanently [31:05] poorer and smaller [31:07] and before the election [31:08] the Labour Party [31:10] Alistair Darling [31:10] to his credit [31:11] appeared to understand that [31:12] which is why they passed [31:13] this legislation [31:14] in March of 2010 [31:15] to actually as it happens [31:17] reduce the deficit [31:18] more quickly [31:18] than the coalition did [31:19] then when they went [31:20] into opposition [31:20] they took a fateful decision [31:22] instead of [31:23] of course you change [31:24] when you're in opposition [31:25] and the luxury of opposition [31:26] is wonderful [31:26] and you can say [31:27] that everything that [31:27] the government's doing [31:28] is wrong [31:29] and be terribly [31:29] sanctimonious [31:30] and so on [31:31] but they were [31:32] they completely replaced [31:35] policy with sanctimony [31:36] in a totally wholesale way [31:37] and they morally vilified [31:39] fiscal decisions [31:40] and they sort of [31:42] loaded this word [31:43] or austerity [31:44] with this sort of [31:44] almost moralising fervour [31:46] and if you feed [31:48] your party [31:49] for ten years [31:51] with the fiction [31:52] that somehow [31:53] any attempt [31:54] to introduce [31:56] fiscal discipline [31:57] in the economy [31:57] is a morally [31:58] reprehensible thing to do [31:59] don't be surprised [32:01] as Starmer found out [32:02] that when you then [32:03] ask them to march [32:04] through the lobbies [32:05] to take painful [32:06] public decisions [32:06] public spending decisions [32:07] they say [32:08] well no [32:09] because I was elected [32:11] on this morally [32:12] on this moral high horse [32:14] saying that fiscal discipline [32:16] is a bad thing [32:17] in and of itself [32:18] and so then [32:18] when they went [32:19] into government [32:19] Rachel Reeves [32:20] and Starmer [32:21] in a half-hearted way [32:23] suddenly started saying [32:24] oh you know [32:25] fiscal rectitude [32:25] is an important [32:26] central plank [32:27] but they don't believe [32:28] it in their heart of hearts [32:29] and the reason [32:30] they don't believe [32:31] in their heart of hearts [32:31] is because they were told [32:32] by Brown [32:33] and then by Miliband [32:34] and all these people [32:35] for basically [32:36] a decade plus [32:38] that if they were in power [32:39] because they're nicer [32:40] and they appear to think [32:42] they're somehow sort of [32:43] sort of almost [32:44] the left always thinks [32:45] that they think [32:46] they're morally superior [32:47] to their opponents [32:47] that things would be easier [32:49] but guess what [32:49] sanctimony doesn't [32:51] balance the books [32:52] just feeling more morally [32:54] superior to your opponents [32:55] in politics [32:56] doesn't make the [32:57] fiscal judgments [32:59] that you face [32:59] any easier [33:00] but if we zoom out [33:02] and look at [33:03] what has happened [33:04] in the country [33:04] in the last 10-15 years [33:05] actually [33:06] some of those critics [33:08] on the left [33:08] would say [33:09] the things they talked about [33:10] that if you [33:11] if you lose the library [33:12] and the police station [33:13] and the potholes [33:14] don't get filled [33:15] actually that is why [33:16] large parts of the country [33:17] feel like they're [33:18] the place that they live [33:19] has got worse [33:20] the state isn't working [33:22] for them [33:22] whether that's the analysis [33:24] of Nigel Farage [33:24] and Andy Burnham [33:25] that Westminster [33:26] has overlooked these places [33:27] and you can draw [33:28] a direct line from that [33:30] back to [33:30] the decisions [33:32] that you were taking [33:32] so firstly [33:34] I think everybody reads [33:35] into recent history [33:36] whatever they want to [33:37] so the left will say [33:38] it was because of [33:38] fiscal policies [33:39] the right will say [33:40] you know [33:40] because of immigration [33:41] everybody [33:42] whatever you call them [33:42] left behind towns [33:43] the disaffected [33:44] sure sure [33:44] and one lot will say [33:45] it's because of immigration [33:46] another one will say [33:47] it's because of perfidious [33:48] bureaucrats in Brussels [33:48] I mean everyone always [33:50] uses [33:50] it's in part because [33:51] you cut the budgets [33:52] for those parts [33:53] hang on a minute [33:53] I was responsible [33:55] for decisions [33:55] which were taken [33:56] between 2010 and 2015 [33:58] I actually as it happens [33:59] made it perfect [34:00] I vetoed about 12 billion [34:02] pounds of extra welfare [34:03] cuts that George Osborne [34:06] and David Cameron [34:06] immediately imposed [34:07] after the 2015 election [34:10] so I am as staunch a critic [34:13] as anyone else is [34:14] of what I thought [34:14] were deeply regressive [34:15] changes that were [34:17] introduced by the [34:17] Conservative governments [34:18] immediately after [34:19] we were evicted [34:20] from office [34:21] but for that period [34:22] 2010 to 2015 [34:23] let's remember [34:24] firstly as I say [34:25] we reduced the deficit [34:26] more slowly [34:27] than Labour [34:29] had legislated for [34:30] the top 1% [34:32] paid more in tax [34:33] during the coalition [34:34] than they did [34:35] at any time [34:36] during the previous [34:37] time that Labour [34:39] had been in office [34:40] and most importantly [34:42] from about the summer [34:43] of 2012 [34:43] pretty well to the moment [34:46] the Brexit vote [34:47] occurred [34:47] something remarkable [34:49] happened in the British [34:50] economy [34:50] it started growing again [34:51] after the catastrophic [34:53] sort of heart attack [34:54] that it had suffered [34:54] in 2008 [34:55] in fact in the last [34:57] full year [34:58] of the coalition government [34:59] 2014 [35:00] the annual growth rate [35:02] of this [35:02] of the economy [35:03] in the United Kingdom [35:04] was close to 3% [35:05] higher than the United States [35:06] it's unthinkable now [35:08] and so all of that [35:10] doesn't mean that [35:11] life was perfect [35:12] you're quite right [35:12] of course not [35:13] controversy around [35:14] spending reductions [35:15] productivity [35:16] was still flatlining [35:19] people's real-term wages [35:20] which if you really [35:21] want to know [35:22] my own view [35:22] my own view [35:23] is that how people [35:24] feel about [35:24] what they're being paid [35:26] compared to prices [35:26] in shops [35:27] often drives voter behavior [35:29] more than anything else [35:30] because there's nothing [35:31] more dispiriting [35:33] the feeling that [35:33] you're just running [35:34] to stand still [35:35] or you're working [35:35] longer shifts [35:36] for the same amount [35:37] of pay [35:37] and the prices [35:38] in the shops [35:39] are exceeding [35:39] the increase [35:40] in your wages [35:41] that was only [35:43] just starting [35:43] to improve [35:44] at the end [35:44] of the coalition [35:45] but here's [35:45] the great tragedy [35:46] I mean [35:47] everybody can play [35:48] these what-if games [35:49] but if we kept [35:50] to that course [35:51] and hadn't turned [35:53] everything upside down [35:53] and inside out [35:54] with the Brexit [35:55] referendum in 2016 [35:56] I genuinely believe [35:57] the United Kingdom [35:58] was on course [35:59] to becoming [35:59] one of the strongest [36:00] economies [36:01] in the G7 [36:03] and in Europe [36:03] as it was recovering [36:04] from the shadow [36:05] of 2008 [36:06] I could only be held [36:07] responsible for what [36:08] I did for a half [36:09] a decade period of time [36:10] I am as critical [36:11] as anyone else [36:12] of what I thought [36:13] were deeply unnecessary [36:14] and unfair cuts [36:16] that were introduced [36:16] afterwards [36:17] I don't even [36:18] I'm even prepared [36:19] to accept [36:20] that there were [36:20] some changes [36:21] that we made [36:22] during that period [36:23] but no one [36:24] who is in power [36:25] could have arrived [36:27] in Downing Street [36:28] in 2010 [36:29] and not taken [36:30] difficult decisions [36:31] given what had happened [36:32] in the banking crisis [36:33] of 2008 [36:34] You've mentioned [36:35] now a couple of times [36:35] things that you admit [36:36] you got wrong [36:37] give us an example [36:38] of what you mean [36:39] Oh I mean [36:41] some are foreign policy [36:42] I regret taking [36:45] the decision [36:45] that David Cameron [36:47] and I did [36:47] to take the military [36:49] action in Libya [36:50] I think that was [36:51] actually ill advised [36:52] The remaining remnants [36:55] of the Gaddafi regime [36:56] are now cornered [36:57] and it is only [36:58] a matter of time [36:59] before they are finally defeated [37:00] and Libya is completely free [37:02] Clearly the botched reforms [37:04] of the NHS [37:04] stop-start [37:05] that was not great at all [37:07] I think some of the [37:08] again stop-start reforms [37:10] in probation services [37:12] was not good [37:13] I would have wanted [37:14] to go further [37:15] in other areas [37:15] So look [37:16] I was not Prime Minister [37:18] I had not a majority [37:20] I'm very proud [37:21] of most of the things [37:22] that we were able [37:23] to put in place [37:23] but like anybody in power [37:25] your dreams collide [37:27] with reality [37:28] and that's the reality [37:30] of governing [37:31] You mentioned Brexit [37:33] and the impact [37:33] that had in 2016 [37:34] Back in 2014 [37:35] you held some [37:36] head-to-head debates [37:37] with Nigel Farage [37:38] hoping to see off [37:40] that populist threat [37:42] Yeah that went well [37:42] didn't it [37:43] How can Britain face up [37:44] to international challenges [37:45] like Russian intervention [37:46] in Crimea [37:47] without the political weight [37:48] which comes from being part [37:49] of the European Union [37:50] So political weight [37:51] coming from the European Union [37:53] Nigel Farage [37:54] Did you and others [37:55] underestimate [37:55] either Nigel Farage's abilities [37:58] or the mood [37:59] that he and others [38:00] were tapping into [38:01] Yeah probably [38:01] By not becoming [38:03] a political union [38:05] with an expansionist [38:06] foreign policy [38:08] The moment I remember [38:09] thinking [38:09] gosh I've misjudged this [38:10] is [38:11] and I'm sure [38:12] I'm remembering this [38:14] either in precisely [38:15] or in a slightly [38:16] self-serving way [38:17] but there was an exchange [38:19] that I had with Nigel Farage [38:21] on the stage [38:23] of one of those debates [38:24] where he basically [38:26] appeared to be [38:28] well it was quite explicit [38:30] in sort of [38:30] more or less apologising [38:32] for or defending [38:33] the actions of Vladimir Putin [38:34] We've had a message [38:36] that's been sent out [38:37] now for 10 years [38:37] and this is not just the EU [38:39] indeed David Cameron [38:40] Nick Clegg [38:42] and I'm afraid [38:43] Ed Miliband too [38:44] have all been saying [38:45] to the Ukraine [38:45] look why don't you come [38:46] and join the European Union [38:47] while you're at it [38:49] why don't you join NATO too [38:51] and this is something [38:53] that has been seen [38:54] by Putin [38:54] to be a deeply [38:56] provocative act [38:57] and I thought [38:58] this is going to [38:59] this is going to [39:00] absolutely terrible for him [39:01] I mean [39:02] absolutely terrible [39:02] and it didn't feature [39:04] it didn't seem to make [39:05] have any impact at all [39:06] and I do not want to be part [39:08] of an emerging [39:09] expansionist EU foreign policy [39:11] I think it'll be a danger [39:12] to peace [39:13] I have to say [39:17] listening to that [39:18] it seems to me [39:18] if I'm the leader [39:19] of the party of IN [39:20] Nigel Farage [39:21] is the leader of Putin [39:21] I remember thinking [39:22] well I'm misjudging [39:24] the mood here [39:25] if someone can [39:26] can defend [39:27] I think he was [39:28] sort of defending [39:29] why or explaining [39:31] why Vladimir Putin [39:32] took the actions [39:33] he did in [39:33] do you remember [39:34] the first invasion [39:34] of the Crimea [39:35] and I just thought [39:37] this was crossing [39:37] such a red line [39:38] I just thought [39:39] I thought that was [39:39] kind of like [39:40] that was going to [39:41] elicit such a blowback [39:43] dare I say it [39:44] I feel very vindicated [39:45] since by my instincts [39:47] because Putin I think [39:48] has turned out to be [39:50] exactly as I felt [39:50] at the time [39:51] and I remember thinking [39:53] yeah I'm misjudging [39:56] if that does not elicit [39:57] a backlash [39:59] you know in the press [40:01] and elsewhere [40:01] on what Farage said [40:02] about Putin [40:03] that I [40:04] so I look [40:05] I think that's [40:05] always the case [40:06] I think populism [40:09] populism can be [40:11] a good thing [40:12] I mean you could [40:12] argue Gandhi [40:13] was a populist [40:14] I mean populists [40:15] populism is a [40:16] rage against the elite [40:18] it's a rage [40:19] against the establishment [40:20] it's a cry for [40:22] please let's do [40:23] something different [40:23] to the status quo [40:24] and I've always had [40:25] actually quite a lot [40:26] of sympathy with [40:27] I was going to say [40:27] you went from [40:28] joining a party [40:29] as the underdog [40:29] and wanted to be [40:30] outside the establishment [40:31] do you think you [40:31] then became [40:32] the thing you raged [40:33] against [40:33] I think to voters [40:35] and to the public [40:36] of course you do [40:37] because there am I [40:38] standing in a suit [40:39] and tie [40:39] Deputy Prime Minister [40:40] wielding some [40:42] or a lot of the [40:43] authority of the state [40:44] so I definitely think [40:46] trying to go from [40:47] being sort of [40:48] shouting at the barricades [40:50] and blowing your trumpet [40:52] trying to bring the walls [40:53] down of the establishment [40:55] and then being part [40:55] of the establishment [40:56] is a huge pivot [40:57] and of course you lose [40:58] people on that journey [40:59] my judgment was [41:02] firstly that we had [41:05] just been dealt [41:05] a series of cards [41:06] by our bosses [41:07] the voters [41:08] they had decided [41:09] that no one deserved [41:10] an absolute majority [41:11] in 2010 [41:12] secondly that having [41:13] another election [41:14] six or twelve months [41:15] later would be [41:15] disastrous for the [41:16] United Kingdom [41:17] given the fragile [41:18] economic situation [41:19] we were in [41:20] and that thirdly [41:21] having the opportunity [41:25] to serve your country [41:26] in government [41:26] certainly in circumstances [41:29] which I felt [41:29] fully justified [41:30] our role there [41:31] I would have thought [41:32] it would be [41:32] a real dereliction [41:33] of duty [41:34] not to step up [41:35] to the plate [41:35] I knew it was going [41:36] to be difficult [41:36] I knew we were going [41:38] to take a lot [41:38] of difficult decisions [41:39] I was going to get [41:40] a lot of stuff [41:41] thrown at me [41:41] but I kind of have [41:42] this old fashioned view [41:44] that if you have [41:44] the opportunity [41:45] to serve your country [41:46] but to your point [41:47] can you be [41:48] anti-establishment [41:49] and outside [41:50] the walls of [41:52] Whitehall one moment [41:53] and then in it [41:54] the next [41:54] and I of course [41:56] thought I was [41:56] I was trying to [41:57] sort of in a sense [41:58] try and be disruptive [41:59] internally [41:59] we held the [42:00] ill-starred referendum [42:01] on the electoral reform [42:02] I tried to get reforms [42:03] of party funding [42:05] at the House of Lords [42:06] and again [42:06] I think what I misjudged [42:07] was not only [42:08] perhaps the mood [42:09] that you allude to [42:10] in those debates [42:11] with Nigel Farage [42:11] I also definitely [42:13] underestimated [42:14] how much Labour [42:16] and Conservatives [42:17] as the two [42:18] sort of vested interests [42:19] of this sort of [42:20] pass the parcel [42:20] political system [42:21] we have [42:22] between those two parties [42:23] how much they [42:24] behind closed doors [42:25] in effect collude [42:26] to stop elections [42:28] to the House of Lords [42:29] to stop electoral reform [42:31] to stop party funding reform [42:32] and I definitely [42:33] underestimated [42:35] how difficult it was [42:36] unless you get [42:37] one of the two [42:38] main parties [42:40] really over a barrel [42:42] it's very very difficult [42:44] to change the rules [42:45] of the game [42:45] your career [42:47] it seems like [42:47] you've gone from [42:47] one slightly weird [42:48] bubble to another [42:49] in Brussels [42:51] and the European Union [42:52] and the weird bubble [42:53] of Westminster [42:54] and then the weird [42:56] bubble of Silicon Valley [42:56] you spent seven years there [42:59] people like my new boss [43:00] Mark Zuckerberg [43:01] one moment [43:02] he can do no wrong [43:03] the next moment [43:03] he can do no right [43:04] during your time again [43:05] there was quite a [43:06] sort of journey [43:08] that you and Meta [43:10] but Silicon Valley [43:10] more generally [43:11] where at one time [43:13] the criticism was [43:14] it was too left wing [43:15] we now say woke [43:16] in Silicon Valley [43:17] and you were brought in [43:18] as a sort of conscience [43:19] of Mark Zuckerberg [43:20] you banned Donald Trump [43:21] from Facebook [43:22] it doesn't matter [43:23] whether you are [43:24] the Pope [43:25] the President of the United States [43:26] whether you're an ordinary user [43:27] you cannot use Facebook [43:29] if you want to use Facebook [43:31] in a way which leads [43:32] to real world imminent harm [43:34] and we think [43:35] it's crystal clear [43:36] in this case [43:37] that that is exactly [43:38] what was happening [43:38] on January 6th [43:39] in Washington DC [43:41] and by the time you left [43:43] yeah [43:43] big change [43:44] they were all putting [43:44] their suits and ties on [43:45] and going to his inauguration [43:47] and that was [43:48] that was the tipping point [43:49] for you [43:49] that's why you left [43:50] yeah I mean I sort of [43:51] slightly felt [43:52] honest I'd been there [43:52] quite a long time [43:53] longer than I'd been [43:54] anticipated [43:54] and you know [43:55] seven years [43:56] it was a fascinating time [43:58] but it was [43:59] but you weren't ready [44:00] to go to [44:01] Tom Trump's inauguration [44:02] no of course not [44:03] and no more than that [44:04] and this is hardly any secret [44:06] and I made this quite clear [44:08] but sort of [44:09] I don't think it makes sense [44:11] for business [44:12] look there's only one thing worse [44:13] in developed capitalist societies [44:16] particularly such a capitalist [44:17] democracy as the United States [44:19] there's only one thing worse [44:20] than having big business [44:21] and politicians [44:21] at each other's throats [44:22] is having them [44:23] in each other's pockets [44:23] and it's as if [44:25] sort of Silicon Valley [44:25] flipped from [44:26] from the former [44:28] to the latter [44:29] and I just don't [44:30] and I'm not saying this [44:31] by the way [44:31] as a Lib Dem [44:32] or as an ex-politician [44:32] that's not why I was [44:33] there in Silicon Valley [44:34] I was an executive [44:35] of a big tech company [44:36] and trying to navigate [44:37] various things [44:38] and introduced [44:38] a bunch of changes [44:40] and so on [44:40] I just don't think [44:41] it makes good business sense [44:42] particularly when you're dealing [44:45] as is the case [44:46] of that meta [44:47] of that company [44:48] when you're dealing with speech [44:49] but if Kamala Harris [44:50] had won the election [44:50] you'd have probably gone [44:51] to the inauguration [44:52] wouldn't you? [44:52] It's not just a business decision [44:55] it's political [44:56] I like to think [44:58] that here's the thing [44:59] I actually found [44:59] certainly by my [45:00] towards the end of my time [45:01] in Silicon Valley [45:02] that I was often [45:03] in discussions [45:04] with very senior people [45:05] in Silicon Valley [45:06] where I'd look around the table [45:08] and I'd realise [45:09] I was the only person [45:10] who'd actually ever been [45:10] elected to anything [45:11] and I was the first one [45:13] in those discussions [45:13] to say keep your distance [45:14] from politics [45:15] I think most especially [45:17] when you deal with speech [45:19] I mean companies like [45:20] Meta [45:21] and Google [45:22] and Microsoft [45:23] and all the [45:23] they're all in different ways [45:25] obviously [45:26] there's Musk [45:27] and Pinterest [45:28] and TikTok [45:29] they're dealing with speech [45:30] and there is nothing [45:32] more controversial than speech [45:33] nothing [45:33] because one lot of people [45:35] is always going to think [45:36] that any kind of content moderation [45:37] is an act of outrageous [45:39] Orwellian censorship [45:40] and another lot of people [45:41] think that it doesn't go [45:42] nearly far enough [45:42] to keep them safe [45:43] and never the twain shall meet [45:44] and so I just strongly feel [45:48] that there are a certain [45:49] reticence and distance [45:51] between business [45:53] and government [45:53] is a good thing [45:54] I think you should be respectful [45:55] I think you should have a relationship [45:56] one of the things I did [45:57] when I arrived in Silicon Valley [45:58] in the autumn of 2018 [46:00] was try and rebuild relationships [46:02] with governments [46:02] around the world [46:03] with Facebook [46:04] in the wake of Cambridge Analytica [46:06] and all that kind of stuff [46:07] so you need a relationship [46:08] but you shouldn't be [46:09] at their beck and call [46:10] and the irony [46:11] in the context of the US debate [46:13] is if you speak to a lot of these [46:15] they're all guys [46:16] they're all blokes [46:17] in most of them [46:18] almost all of them [46:19] in Silicon Valley [46:20] they'll tell you [46:21] that the reason they've [46:22] kind of flipped [46:23] from being wary of politics [46:24] to spending all their [46:25] you know so much time in DC [46:27] is because they feel [46:28] that it is necessary [46:29] for Silicon Valley [46:30] and Washington DC [46:32] tech power [46:33] and political power [46:34] to work hand in glove [46:36] to beat the common enemy [46:37] which is China [46:38] and that is what animates [46:40] all of American decision making [46:42] is how can [46:42] America compete [46:44] and win the race [46:45] to AI supremacy [46:46] against China [46:46] the irony is [46:48] in doing what they're doing [46:49] in other words [46:50] increasingly kind of [46:51] working hand in glove [46:51] with each other [46:52] they're behaving [46:53] in an increasingly Chinese way [46:54] you know the traditional [46:55] American critique of China [46:57] was that Chinese companies [46:58] were basically [46:59] operating at political direction [47:02] and that's the great irony [47:03] is that these two great [47:04] sort of technological superpowers [47:06] are almost slightly mutating [47:07] into each other [47:08] in terms of regulation of tech [47:10] and we've seen in the UK [47:11] one of Keir Starmer's last things [47:12] he did before he left office [47:13] was to announce a ban [47:14] on under-sixteens [47:15] using social media [47:18] today I can announce [47:20] that the government [47:22] will ban access [47:23] to social media [47:24] for all children [47:26] under the age of 16 [47:28] do you accept [47:31] that the [47:33] whether it's the addictive scrolling [47:35] the bullying [47:36] the harmful content [47:37] that young people [47:39] and others have found [47:40] on that [47:40] does have a negative impact [47:42] of course [47:43] undoubtedly so [47:45] undoubtedly so [47:46] and I think it's [47:46] but you think that's a price worth paying [47:47] no [47:48] no no no [47:49] and I think it's totally [47:49] within the rights of [47:50] I think it's totally [47:52] within the rights of governments [47:53] and it should be left to governments [47:54] it shouldn't be left to tech companies [47:55] you shouldn't leave [47:56] tech companies [47:57] to make these deeply moral judgments [47:59] about what's right for kids [48:00] when kids should join social media [48:02] and so on [48:02] I mean look [48:03] I have a [48:03] I have a policy observation [48:06] which is that [48:06] just trying to sort of [48:07] sweep the problem [48:08] under the carpet [48:09] by saying we banned it [48:10] isn't great policy [48:12] as we've seen in Australia [48:13] lots and lots of kids [48:14] in fact [48:14] the majority of kids [48:15] appear to [48:16] you know [48:16] avail themselves of VPNs [48:18] and use [48:19] and the unfortunate thing [48:20] is they then use [48:21] more risky parts of the internet [48:22] but I think [48:23] but isn't that because [48:24] all the attempts to work nicely [48:26] with the tech companies [48:26] haven't worked [48:27] well that's where [48:28] unfortunately I think [48:29] there's sort of caricature [48:30] because the easiest thing to say [48:31] is these people are amoral [48:33] you know idiots [48:34] and they haven't done their job [48:36] and so I mean [48:37] it's an easy [48:38] it's a nice [48:38] it's a nice line [48:39] it writes a nice headline [48:40] these people are fathers [48:42] and mothers [48:42] they're not [48:43] they're not actually [48:44] as sort of [48:45] bereft of any [48:46] moral compass [48:47] as I know the [48:47] it's [48:48] the easiest thing to do [48:50] in life often [48:51] certainly in politics [48:51] and dare I say it in the media [48:52] is to you vilify someone so much [48:54] that you turn them into [48:55] a sort of ludicrous caricature [48:56] and when you do that [48:57] what happens is [48:58] you actually stop thinking [48:59] and here's the thing [49:00] if I think the right solution [49:02] is to put far more pressure [49:05] on these tech companies [49:06] to build [49:07] basically totally separate apps [49:10] for kids [49:11] whether it's between [49:12] 13 and 17 [49:13] 13 and 16 [49:14] that's for politicians to decide [49:16] totally separate [49:17] where they can't be communicated [49:19] with by adults [49:19] they don't have the same freedoms [49:21] to receive content [49:23] the content controls [49:24] are much stricter [49:25] you were at Meta for seven years [49:26] and you didn't do that [49:27] we did [49:28] that's the whole point [49:29] so not least because of me [49:30] there's actually something called [49:32] I think it's called [49:33] teen accounts [49:34] we have a totally separate account [49:35] on Instagram [49:36] should that have happened earlier [49:37] yes arguably yes [49:38] but huge changes happened [49:40] not least dare I say [49:40] at my instigation [49:42] perfectly prepared to accept [49:44] the critique that says [49:45] it didn't go far and fast enough [49:47] but here's the thing [49:48] by simply banning [49:50] weirdly [49:50] I know this is not the intention [49:52] I really get that [49:53] and I have a lot of sympathy [49:54] with the political intention [49:55] and certainly the societal support [49:57] for a ban [49:57] because it sounds like [49:58] you know [49:59] problem solved [50:00] but weirdly [50:01] you're almost letting [50:01] the tech companies off the hook [50:03] because from their point of view [50:04] they think [50:05] okay well then we won't bother [50:06] doing all the different [50:06] because it's difficult engineering work [50:08] to work out exactly [50:09] who's what age [50:09] and what [50:10] you know [50:10] how they use a different app [50:11] to adults and so on [50:12] it's not as straightforward [50:13] as it sounds [50:14] to adjudicate exactly [50:15] and you have people gaming [50:17] and cheating the system [50:18] and so on [50:18] but by having this ban [50:20] it you know [50:21] I get it [50:22] politicians and governments say [50:23] we've done something [50:24] everyone feels [50:25] problem's gone [50:26] what we will find [50:27] I'm afraid [50:28] over the next few years [50:28] is that the problem [50:29] hasn't gone [50:29] the kids will be still online [50:31] they'll actually be using [50:32] a whole bunch of apps [50:33] which are much less safe [50:34] and the tech companies [50:36] in Silicon Valley [50:37] will think [50:37] well we don't have to spend money [50:38] on building [50:39] what I think [50:40] is the best thing [50:41] I actually have a lot of sympathy [50:42] with [50:42] I don't know him [50:43] I've never met him [50:44] but I think the father [50:45] of Molly Russell [50:46] Ian Russell [50:47] I think [50:47] but I hope [50:48] I'm not misrepresenting [50:49] I would hate to do that [50:50] his views [50:51] but I think [50:51] as I've understood it [50:52] he has made a similar point [50:54] which is [50:55] you should be forcing [50:56] these companies [50:57] to build age appropriate [50:59] experiences [51:00] by just saying [51:01] you're going to ban something [51:02] you kind of [51:02] you let them off the hook [51:04] on that [51:05] and so I've always had [51:06] quite a lot of sympathy [51:07] with what Ian Russell [51:08] has had to say on that [51:09] you've mentioned AI [51:10] several times [51:11] and clearly [51:11] there are [51:13] some people who are [51:14] evangelical about that [51:15] and some people who think [51:16] it's apocalyptic [51:17] what might happen [51:19] with AI [51:21] what's your view [51:22] because there is a danger [51:23] that [51:24] bluntly [51:25] people like you [51:25] from the world of tech [51:26] think it's all marvellous [51:27] and it's going to [51:27] revolutionise everything [51:28] and isn't it marvellous [51:31] all these jobs [51:31] we can get rid of [51:32] that can be done [51:32] through AI [51:33] and normal people [51:35] doing those jobs [51:36] this doesn't sound [51:38] all new and exciting [51:39] sounds terrifying [51:40] what does the future [51:41] of the British economy [51:42] look like [51:43] with AI [51:44] well needless to say [51:45] my crystal ball [51:46] is no clearer [51:47] than anybody else's [51:47] and I would generally [51:49] say to your viewers [51:50] just [51:51] and listeners [51:51] disregard [51:52] a lot of the [51:53] lofty predictions [51:55] because most people [51:56] just don't know [51:57] and I think one of the things [51:58] that has clouded [52:00] this debate [52:00] so much [52:01] is firstly [52:02] it has been catastrophic [52:04] in my view [52:04] for the tenor [52:06] and quality [52:07] of the debates [52:07] to have [52:08] the tech leaders [52:09] themselves [52:10] Musk [52:11] Sam Altman [52:12] and Dario Madej [52:13] notably [52:13] spend so much time [52:15] as they did [52:16] certainly [52:16] a year or two ago [52:17] going around saying [52:19] reinventing a technology [52:20] which is going to end [52:21] society as we know it [52:22] will destroy all jobs [52:24] is that true? [52:25] I don't think it is [52:26] I think it's not [52:27] but I don't blame at all [52:28] the politicians [52:29] who then say [52:29] well if Elon Musk [52:31] and Dario Madej [52:31] said to me [52:32] it's going to [52:32] there's going to be [52:34] the equivalent [52:34] of a total upheaval [52:36] in society [52:36] I better get ready [52:38] for it [52:38] I think that [52:39] they are hyperventilating [52:40] I think a lot of it [52:41] is hype [52:42] I think a lot of [52:43] these tech leaders [52:43] develop a sort of [52:44] weird kind of [52:45] Oppenheimer complex [52:46] they want to sort of [52:47] say that they've [52:48] created some godlike [52:50] thing [52:50] it's technology [52:52] and guess what [52:53] and that's the second [52:54] reason why it's so [52:54] difficult to [52:55] sometimes get your arms [52:56] around this debate [52:57] it's technology [52:58] which is at the one [52:59] hand [53:00] extraordinarily [53:01] versatile [53:01] and powerful [53:02] and revolutionary [53:03] and on the other [53:04] hand [53:04] deeply inefficient [53:06] and stupid [53:07] so on the one [53:08] hand it can write [53:09] beautiful poetry [53:10] it can help invent [53:11] new antibiotics [53:12] it can revolutionise [53:14] healthcare [53:15] on the other hand [53:15] it's monstrously [53:17] expensive to [53:19] what's called [53:19] train these [53:20] foundation models [53:21] in the first place [53:21] you need ludicrous [53:22] amounts of water [53:23] and energy [53:24] and you need to [53:26] build these data centres [53:27] and you need to [53:28] have these GPUs [53:29] these chips [53:29] which are sold by [53:30] Nvidia and other [53:31] companies [53:31] and these large [53:34] language models [53:34] based on the [53:36] so called [53:36] transformer based [53:37] paradigm of [53:38] artificial intelligence [53:39] because remember [53:40] artificial intelligence [53:41] has been around [53:42] since the 1950s [53:43] this is the sort of [53:43] newest iteration of it [53:44] so called generative AI [53:46] doesn't actually [53:47] it can't even read [53:49] in a PDF [53:49] you know [53:50] the reason these things [53:52] come out spit out [53:53] and everybody I'm sure [53:54] watching or listening [53:55] to this has had this [53:55] experience [53:56] you ask a question [53:57] about something you [53:58] really know about [53:58] it suddenly comes up [54:00] with something [54:00] complete nonsense [54:01] because it [54:02] what it does is [54:03] it takes vast amounts [54:05] of data [54:05] turns that data [54:06] into tokens [54:06] and then uses [54:07] basically a mathematical [54:09] probabilistic calculation [54:11] to spit out [54:11] to predict [54:13] to generate [54:14] thus the word [54:14] generative AI [54:15] the next token [54:16] and so it's inherently [54:18] never going to be [54:19] as precise as you want [54:20] it doesn't understand [54:21] the physical world [54:23] so I think [54:25] that's [54:25] so I think [54:26] one of the reasons [54:27] why people [54:28] legitimately find it [54:29] so difficult [54:30] to find their bearings [54:31] in all this [54:31] is that the [54:32] technologists [54:33] have been so hyperbolic [54:34] in their claims [54:35] and the technology [54:36] itself is [54:36] is both brilliant [54:38] and rather dumb [54:39] at the same time [54:41] having said all of that [54:42] it is clearly going to be [54:43] highly consequential [54:45] it already is [54:45] my hunch [54:46] but this is just a hunch [54:47] is that if history [54:49] is any guide [54:50] the gap [54:52] the time that is elapsed [54:53] between the invention [54:54] of a technology [54:55] and the adoption [54:56] of technology [54:57] at a sort of societal level [54:58] that tends to be [54:59] a lot longer [55:00] than technologists [55:02] themselves realize [55:03] so people in Silicon Valley [55:05] think because they're [55:06] using some [55:06] the latest whiz bang [55:08] AI model [55:09] everybody else will [55:10] next week as well [55:12] in fact [55:12] I mean if you look [55:13] at desktop computing [55:15] for instance [55:15] that was around [55:16] for 25 years [55:17] before it became [55:18] completely universal [55:19] in workplaces [55:20] and offices [55:21] in the United Kingdom [55:21] and around the world [55:22] so I think [55:23] I would urge people [55:24] to disaggregate [55:27] a lot of the hype [55:28] from the technologists [55:28] they are engineers [55:30] and technologists [55:30] they're not soothsayers [55:32] they're not philosopher kings [55:33] they're not labour market economists [55:35] so don't listen to them [55:36] on that stuff [55:37] and take a dispassionate look [55:39] at the strengths [55:40] and weaknesses [55:40] of the technology [55:41] and crucially [55:42] consider the pace [55:44] of adoption [55:45] I think [55:45] I think if the pace [55:46] was overnight [55:47] it would be very disruptive [55:48] societally [55:49] socially and so on [55:50] if I think [55:51] I think if it's going [55:52] to be incremental [55:53] as I suspect it will be [55:54] we've done it before [55:55] we've done it before [55:56] as a society [55:57] we all lived on the land [55:58] and then you know [55:59] technologies came along [56:00] and we all moved into cities [56:01] and to factories [56:01] and so on [56:02] that was not without [56:03] its disruptions [56:04] by the way [56:04] but we've done it before [56:05] we can do it again [56:07] I would urge people [56:08] to kind of disregard [56:10] quite a lot of the [56:11] kind of headline [56:11] grabbing hype [56:13] around this technology [56:14] Final couple of thoughts [56:15] we've talked about [56:17] the abuse that you got [56:18] and the difficulties [56:19] of taking difficult decisions [56:20] in politics [56:21] now your wife Miriam [56:22] is entering politics [56:24] in Spain [56:25] You'll have to get her [56:27] on your programme [56:27] what's been your advice [56:29] to her [56:30] I mean not least [56:31] because she's been on [56:32] the receiving end [56:33] of some of that scooter [56:34] now as a politician's spouse [56:35] but it's very difficult [56:36] being the politician yourself [56:37] I don't think she [56:37] hugely appreciated [56:39] the caricatures [56:40] well the British press [56:41] have a particular way [56:42] of talking about [56:43] unfortunately [56:43] about female spouses [56:44] what's been your advice [56:45] to her going into politics [56:47] Miriam's actually [56:50] the daughter of a politician [56:51] and Miriam [56:53] beyond and above everything else [56:55] can speak for herself [56:56] I'm not here to ventriloquise [56:57] for her [56:58] I am her husband [56:59] and I just [57:00] I love her [57:01] and support her [57:02] and admire what she's doing [57:03] enormously [57:04] and so my support [57:05] really is not [57:06] sort of [57:07] it's not as an ex-politician [57:08] it's really as someone [57:09] who just wants to support her [57:10] in doing something [57:11] which is very challenging [57:12] very difficult [57:13] but I [57:14] I [57:14] I [57:15] I just think it's wonderful [57:17] whether it's Miriam [57:18] who obviously [57:19] I feel particularly [57:20] strongly about [57:22] but whether it's anyone else [57:23] I think it's wonderful [57:24] when people [57:25] despite all the [57:26] brickbats that politicians face [57:27] and all the [57:28] difficulties that you've alluded to [57:30] still retain the belief [57:32] that public service [57:33] is a good thing to aspire to [57:35] and Miriam could do a whole bunch [57:36] of other things with her life [57:36] she was a very successful lawyer [57:37] I think [57:38] I hugely hugely admire in her [57:41] and others [57:41] people who despite all of it [57:43] still say [57:44] no I want to try [57:45] and put myself before the voters [57:47] because I believe [57:48] I have ideas about how to make [57:50] my country better [57:51] that was going to be my final thought [57:53] actually [57:53] going back to where we started [57:54] would a young Nick Clegg [57:56] today [57:57] pursue [57:58] politics [57:59] oh yes [57:59] undoubtedly [58:01] it's flawed [58:02] it's imperfect [58:03] it's [58:03] it's tough [58:04] but I [58:07] I [58:07] I'm sure there's some [58:09] wonderful Churchill quote [58:10] that I'm going to misremember [58:11] but you know [58:12] it's the best system we've got [58:13] I think it needs to be improved [58:15] and overhauled entirely [58:16] but I think the act [58:18] that old fashioned act [58:19] of being big enough [58:22] and vulnerable enough [58:23] to put your [58:24] put yourself in front of people [58:26] and say [58:27] I'm going to put my neck on the line [58:28] please vote for me [58:29] and you're not [58:30] because it's [58:31] and I'm not [58:32] I'm not making some facetious remark [58:34] about your trade or something [58:35] you're not commenting about [58:36] you're not observing it [58:37] you're not doing [58:37] throwing popcorn [58:38] from the cheap seats at the back [58:39] you're actually right there [58:41] and putting your neck on the line [58:42] I think remains an admirable thing [58:44] and I know it's deeply unfashionable [58:45] because everyone wants to constantly [58:47] you know [58:49] condemn and be negative [58:50] about politicians [58:51] and you know [58:52] the convention is to say [58:53] that every politician [58:54] is just in it for themselves [58:55] and they're venal [58:55] and this that and the other [58:56] actually my experience [58:57] is a lot of people [58:58] in public life [58:59] are [59:00] even if I violently disagree [59:02] with their political views [59:03] are decent people [59:05] who genuinely think [59:06] that they have ideas [59:07] which are going to lead [59:07] to improvements in the country [59:09] and my fear is [59:10] that if we carry on [59:12] the trajectory we're on [59:14] the only people [59:15] who will go into politics [59:16] are not people [59:17] who've got any previous experience [59:19] outside politics [59:20] or had a normal life [59:21] or particularly had a life [59:22] in creating jobs [59:24] and businesses [59:24] and so on [59:25] which I think is [59:25] particularly important [59:26] you'll get this sort of [59:28] you'll get this kind of flywheel [59:30] where it'll just [59:30] people come out of college [59:32] school, university [59:33] work for a trade union [59:34] work for a think tank [59:35] work for a minister [59:36] work as a special advisor [59:38] then find a seat [59:39] fail [59:39] then find a safe seat [59:40] and you'll get this [59:41] treadmill [59:42] which basically creates [59:43] a cast [59:44] a political sort of cast [59:46] and I think we're in danger of that [59:48] and the more we denigrate politics [59:50] the more that is likely [59:51] I think that [59:51] we have to think about [59:53] how we open up politics [59:55] to people who otherwise [59:56] as that was my case [59:58] when I was a young man [59:59] who otherwise wouldn't think [1:00:00] of going into politics normally [1:00:02] it's Nick Clegg [1:00:03] thank you for joining us [1:00:04] thank you