Reform Have Gone ‘Full Trump’ In Their ‘War On The Establishment’ — Ben Habib

[0:00] Reform has no option now but to be in that cul-de-sac because it has failed to create the foundations and the building blocks to which I referred at the beginning of this interview. [0:10] Reform UK says there is no room for racism in its party after ITV News broadcast Undercover filming of some of its councillors and candidates using racist, violent and sexist language. [0:21] There are a whole host of allegations in the film which is called Undercover, A Year in Reform. [0:26] Here's one example to give you a sense of it. A Reform UK councillor, Deputy Mayor of Solihull, Alan Feena, is recorded giving his thoughts on Asian homeowners. [0:35] We'll play a bit of it to you but you may find it offensive. [0:37] So when a house comes up for sale, white people need to be in there. You almost need to f*** out Muslim the Muslims. [0:45] You'd need a proper nuclear option, like literally drag them out of their homes, stick them on planes and f*** them off to Pakistan, which you'll never do in a month of Sundays. [0:55] I'd be saying no more than 1% of British population can be non-white. [1:04] ITV reported that Feeney had mutually agreed to resign from Reform UK, citing personal reasons and will be continuing as an independent councillor. [1:13] Reform UK's deputy leader Richard Tice got his say in early. [1:16] Earlier this week, before the details of the documentary were public, he released a video saying that ITV and the production company Hard Cash had broken the law. [1:25] in broadcasting rules making the documentary and had used a conservative plant to infiltrate Reform. [1:31] We at Reform will not be stopped by this continuing assault on us, this continuing illegality by a terrified establishment. [1:40] Now ITV and Hard Cash, they might be proud of their deception. [1:44] They might think themselves very clever. [1:45] Well, they're not going to feel the same when they hear from our lawyers. [1:49] Of that I can assure you. [1:50] Well, I'm joined now by Ben Habib, the former Reform deputy leader who has since moved on to another political party and has been critical of Reform UK. [1:59] Good morning, Ben Habib. [2:01] Good morning, Kate. [2:02] How bad is this for Reform UK in your view? [2:06] I think the surface story, which the media are picking up on, is a bunch of bigoted, racist councillors and other members of Reform being caught out. [2:16] But I think the, and of course they have been, and what they said was reprehensible, but I think the more fundamental story here is a party which really hasn't made any serious attempt to create the foundations required, and then the structures required for it to form a government. [2:33] Reform has always been, and I'm sure you and I have discussed this in the past, Reform has always been in one hell of a hurry to gain momentum. [2:41] And, you know, Nigel Farage, formidable campaigner, formidable fighter of elections, but actually doesn't do the heavy lifting or the thinking required to create a proper organisation through which proper people can emerge to the top of the organisation, filling, you know, public office and so on, that can deliver good policies for the benefit of the nation. [3:04] He's all about campaigning, he's all about moving forward and keeping that momentum. [3:09] And in the pursuit of that momentum, they haven't bothered really to vet the candidates that they have applying to them. [3:17] And the best example I think I can give of this was December 2024, if I've got my dates right, when Nigel Farage wrote to all 1,355 Tory councillors that were coming up for election in the following May to 2025 elections, [3:32] saying that any one of you who wishes to join Reform, join Reform. [3:36] For him, and for him, that was the imperative, get as many bums on seats as possible. [3:43] But of course, for the public looking in, it's a complete straying away of any attempt to get the right people on those seats, the right bums on those seats, if you like. [3:54] It's all about momentum for Farage. [3:57] It's not about proper structure, proper building blocks, proper people, proper policies. [4:03] And that has been a criticism from other members of the party who have subsequently left. [4:07] How widespread do you think these kinds of views are in Reform UK? [4:11] Because our political editor, Anna Mihailova, was also highlighting before, [4:14] one element of this documentary is that some of those Reform councillors who are cited in this particular film, [4:20] they are caught saying we need to hide our views in order to get elected. [4:24] How widespread do you think this is? [4:27] Well, I can't answer that question. [4:30] It's clearly widespread. [4:33] It's clearly widespread. [4:34] And I think the notion that there's a coherent political philosophy in amongst the representatives of Reform [4:43] is a fundamentally flawed one for the reasons I just gave. [4:46] And there will probably be lots of representatives of Reform who hold wildly different views to the ones you've, [4:55] the reprehensible ones you've just played, you know, on your show and that ITV captured. [5:00] I think the point I'm trying to make is that Reform is just a hodgepodge of a bunch of people. [5:05] And there will no doubt be elements who see Farage as the sort of lightning rod for holding those kinds of reprehensible views, [5:15] perhaps even tolerating those reprehensible views, and are attracted to Reform by it. [5:20] But what Reform hasn't done, and by the way, I don't think Farage is a racist or holds the views expressed by those individuals, [5:27] but what Reform hasn't done is try to make any attempt to prevent those people from joining the party [5:34] and then having joined the party, making sure that they got rid of. [5:38] I mean, for example, you know, in the video that you played of Pais complaining about ITV's sting, [5:43] he goes on, I think, to say how the individual had misrepresented himself to the people at Reform who'd employed him. [5:52] Well, clearly, their vetting is rubbish. This ITV guy managed to get in. [5:58] It's almost an admission of their failure to govern their own party properly. [6:04] One of the things that Richard Tice also does point out in that video is that Reform UK feel at the moment [6:10] that they are under siege, but also at risk. [6:14] And they're not, it's not a, it's not strange that they might feel that way, given what happened to Anne Whittacombe. [6:20] And there have also been these security questions around other high profile members of the party. [6:24] Is it fair for Richard Tice to push back in this way? [6:27] He says, look, if you've lied to get into, to get close to us, and that is in turn putting us at risk. [6:34] I don't see any physical harm coming to Reform members or representatives as a result of that sting. [6:41] This is merely a journalist using whatever pretenses a journalist uses [6:46] to get under the skin of an organisation, rather like the Channel 4 sting that took place, [6:51] a misrepresentation in order to get close to the organisation, to reveal the organisation. [6:57] But I think the more, the more meaningful, I think, comment coming from Tice, [7:04] it's not that the party's, you know, at risk now, people, members of the party at risk. [7:10] I think the more meaningful thing that he's trying to get to, which Farage is repeatedly saying, [7:16] is that the establishment is against Reform. [7:19] And Farage, Tice, others are now unashamedly trying to paint Reform [7:24] as the victim of an establishment witch hunt. [7:27] And I think it's remarkable, for example, I think it's remarkable that the party could have conducted [7:34] an internal investigation into James Orr and Dan Jukes, who were the subjects of the Channel 4 sting. [7:43] They could have conducted that internal investigation and concluded that there was no charge for James Orr [7:51] or Dan Jukes to answer. [7:53] They did that ahead of a Metropolitan Police investigation. [7:58] What that says to me is that Reform now actually doesn't give a damn what the establishment decides about it. [8:05] It's going to be brazen. [8:07] It's going to come forward. [8:08] And if necessary, it will say black is white and white is black. [8:14] And it will just brazen this out. [8:17] The correct approach to the internal investigation into James Orr and Dan Jukes [8:22] would have been to wait for the Metropolitan Police to have adjudicated, [8:26] reached their own judgment before the party reached its judgment. [8:30] But they're going to be brazen. [8:31] They're going full Trump. [8:33] It's the establishment versus reform. [8:35] Every criticism you hear about reform is merely as a result of that witch hunt. [8:42] There's nothing to see here. [8:43] For example, these reprehensible comments you've just played out as a result of ITV under false pretenses, [8:51] breaking the law, getting close to these people and therefore being able to reveal them. [8:56] Reform has no option now but to be in that cul-de-sac because it has failed to create the foundations [9:03] and the building blocks to which I referred at the beginning of this interview. [9:07] Ben Habib, thank you very much for joining us on the programme this morning. [9:10] That is the former Reform Deputy Leader, Ben Habib. [9:13] And it's important for us to say we did invite Reform UK onto the programme. [9:17] We have heard from a couple of Reform UK figures on Times Radio over the last couple of weeks. [9:21] So they have been out and about. [9:23] But they declined to join us today. [9:26] There is a statement from a spokesperson saying where members, activists and councillors [9:30] have clearly behaved inappropriately. [9:32] Investigations have commenced. [9:33] They added that in some cases there had been suspensions.