Piers Morgan vs Dave Smith Full Debate — Trump, Iran & the MAGA Divide

[0:00] Smith, we'll come to the tsunami that greeted your last appearance on Uncensored, led by Ben Shapiro, a little later. [0:10] But first of all, this sort of quaint notion now being peddled by people in the mainstream media that the podcast world is irrelevant, [0:19] no one's ever heard of any of the podcasters or we YouTubers or anything, and we should all just be ignored. [0:28] I don't think that's true. [0:29] Oh, I mean, it's just patently absurd on its face. [0:34] I mean, again, I'm not trying to, like, overstate the influence that any one podcast or show has. [0:42] But, I mean, lots of people listen to shows they don't necessarily agree completely with the host of that show. [0:47] But, again, you know, to say, look, I mean, Pierce, if you look at the polls, what the polls tell us is that this is the most unpopular war in American history going into the war. [0:57] And CNN is going to read you these North Korea numbers. [1:00] Actually, in fact, I think it was better than Kim Jong-un did in his last election, 100 percent of MAGA. [1:07] But what does that really mean? [1:08] I mean, the truth is, Pierce, you kind of nailed it here in your opening, right? [1:11] Even when Joe Biden was clearly senile and was forced to pull out of his reelection campaign, the majority of Biden supporters still supported him. [1:24] You know, and, like, there was still going to be, like, 40-something percent of the electorate would have voted for Joe Biden. [1:31] Now, that wasn't enough, though, and that's why they forced him out, because you need a coalition to carry you here. [1:36] So this comes down to, like, how you're defining MAGA. [1:39] If you wanted to, say, Joe Rogan and C.O. Vaughn and Andrew Schultz and all these guys, they're not MAGA. [1:45] Well, OK, but they were relevant enough for Donald Trump to go on all of their shows in the campaign. [1:51] And the point is that the coalition that got Donald Trump elected in 24, that got him for the first time ever to win the popular vote, that coalition has been destroyed. [1:59] And the final thing I'll say is this, Pierce. [2:01] I made this prediction on my show the other day. [2:03] But right now, you kind of have these two broadly speaking camps, say, Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens, maybe people like me, who are saying the coalition has been destroyed. [2:13] And then on the other side, you have people like you played Bacha, Ben Shapiro, who are saying, no, no, no, the coalition is fine. [2:20] What we've learned is that Tucker Carlson doesn't matter. [2:23] Give it a couple months, Pierce, and I promise you, everyone on that side will say the coalition has been destroyed and it's Tucker's fault. [2:31] This is going to tank Donald Trump's presidency. [2:34] We're already past the point of that. [2:36] The Democrats are going to win the House and the Senate. [2:38] It's going to be impeachments and subpoenas and investigations for the next two years. [2:42] And I don't think anyone from this administration can win the presidential in 28 at this pace. [2:48] Right. Well, Adam, you're part of a very successful podcast. [2:53] Patrick, but David's been a regular on the show, as have other members of your great team. [2:59] And, you know, I would say just from a personal you can only judge it personally, I guess. [3:02] But I've been on some of the biggest TV shows, mainstream TV shows you can think of. [3:07] Right. America's got talent for six years. Britain's got talent. [3:11] I replaced Larry King at CNN. [3:13] They aired my show three times a day in America and around the world and so on and so on. [3:18] And what's been fascinating to me in the last couple of years is I get more people come up to me in the street, wherever I am, whether it's New York, L.A., London, Sydney, the Middle East, whatever. [3:30] More people come up and they're a bit younger than came up when I did any of those shows. [3:36] And they're all coming up about my YouTube show and they're all watching it avidly. [3:41] And they're watching other shows like yours, like Dave's, Tucker, because they talked to me about all this. [3:48] I had two guys last week from Denmark, 19, I think they were, stopped me in the street in West London. [3:55] Passionate viewers of Uncensored. [3:57] Right. It was really fascinating to talk to them. [3:59] So I just think this idea that people who operate away from mainstream media now, like you, like me, like Dave, like others, that we're kind of irrelevant and no one knows who we are, is completely contradicted by reality. [4:14] I just see it in the streets. [4:15] So I don't know whether it's self-preservation going on that the mainstream media doesn't want to accept. [4:22] There's been a shift in power. [4:24] But what do you think? [4:28] So we're talking about the mainstream media. [4:29] So how much trust do you have in the mainstream media? [4:31] But let me answer that. [4:33] So, number one, Pierce, great to be with you, Dave. [4:36] Good to see you. [4:36] It's been a little while. [4:37] And thank you for dressing up, Dave. [4:40] The question that you're asking is, are young people watching social media and are watching YouTube? [4:47] Obviously, duh. [4:49] My mom still watches the, you know, the news at 8 p.m. [4:52] And if she misses it, that's it. [4:54] She doesn't see it. [4:54] She hasn't figured out how to get on social media. [4:56] She still tries to ask me how to find her, how to find me on YouTube and on Instagram. [5:00] But, yes, the 35 and under crowd is on social media. [5:04] And I'll tell you an anecdote. [5:06] I used to, I'm registered independent. [5:07] I've never voted for Trump. [5:09] And then I, you know, had common sense and realized you vote for Trump, who might be brutish and an a-hole, or you vote for a weak, feckless, I wouldn't even call it leader. [5:18] Like Kamala. [5:19] And obviously, the choice is pretty easy. [5:21] But I would debate with my liberal friends, one that was very, very, very tight with the Clinton people, part of the Hillary campaign. [5:29] And he noticed as I was starting to become more, let's just say, less Trump-hating. [5:35] This is in 2023, 2024, run-up to the election. [5:39] And then he goes, dude, I don't even know what happened to you. [5:40] You're like full-on MAGA now. [5:41] I go, no, I just have common sense. [5:44] I see what's going on on the radical left. [5:46] And it just, it's so un-American to me. [5:49] And he goes, yeah, you're just in your little YouTube world. [5:52] I'm in the real world with the real politicians and the real polls. [5:57] I got the real stuff going on. [5:58] I go, hey, buddy, his name is John. [6:00] I go, John, this is the real world now, guy. [6:04] Yeah, well, we'll see. [6:06] So obviously, we see what happens in the election. [6:08] This is not the type of person that likes to apologize, right? [6:11] Comes up to me and he goes, Adam, I was dead wrong. [6:14] You're right. [6:15] This is a new YouTube world. [6:16] Congratulations on all your success, Pierce. [6:19] And welcome to the YouTube world. [6:20] It is what it is. [6:22] OK, well, we're sort of in broad agreement there. [6:24] Let's get to broad disagreement, I suspect, which is the way this war is playing out. [6:30] I mean, Dave, I've really struggled to work out the upside for Donald Trump [6:36] from the start of this, doing this so close to the midterms, doing exactly what he said [6:42] he wouldn't do, which is he was going to stop attacking Middle Eastern countries. [6:47] It was all going to be America first, a premium on sorting out American problems in America. [6:54] And then suddenly he launches a war on one of the biggest countries in the Middle East, [6:58] certainly one of the best armed. [7:00] And all hell has broken loose, not least to the global economy, which is inevitably going [7:07] to have and already is having a very detrimental effect on living standards for average Americans. [7:13] If I'm an American that voted for Trump, I'm like, I don't get this. [7:18] You know, I might in a poll say I get it, but I don't think I really get it. [7:24] Yeah. [7:24] And then you also have to consider there, Pierce, right? [7:26] Like there's there's a sizable percentage of people who support Donald Trump, who approve [7:31] of the job broadly that he's been doing, who maybe look for three weeks or whatever into [7:35] this, go, all right, I'll kind of give him a chance. [7:38] We'll see. [7:39] But if this doesn't turn into any type of win and if it turns into a clear disaster, which [7:44] it already seems to be, that's only going to hurt him more and more and more. [7:48] You know, I think, look, Pierce, it's despite the fact that it is not in my incentives in [7:55] some way as like a political commentator. [7:57] Like, I hope this whole thing just works out great. [8:00] And then I know that all the people who don't like me will say, ha ha, you were warning that [8:04] this would be a disaster. [8:05] I hope that I would much rather take that deal and live in that. [8:10] But Pierce, the other element there is that, right, we had the 12 day war in the summer [8:14] and I've certainly heard I heard at the time some on debates that we did on your show [8:19] and others. [8:20] And I've heard nothing but since then on social media that, ha, oh, you guys were so stupid. [8:25] You were warning about exactly what we're seeing right now, which is what all of us were warning [8:29] about who are critics of the 12 day war. [8:31] And they but the Iran didn't do that. [8:34] And they were like, look, we got away with it. [8:35] One and done. [8:36] No Americans dead. [8:37] And that's it. [8:38] We don't have to do anything else. [8:39] They spent the following six months bragging about how the nuclear threat had been totally [8:43] obliterated. [8:44] Now we find ourselves, Pierce, back in this same situation. [8:47] And as I mentioned last time on your show, the big picture here is that clearly the calculation [8:52] changed for Iran. [8:54] They no longer feel that it's in their incentive for self-preservation to not strike back and [9:00] kill Americans or not do maximal damage. [9:03] And now clearly with a younger, more radical Ayatollah who has not promised to not build [9:08] nuclear weapons. [9:09] They've made the calculation that actually they can't not give us a bloody nose, that they [9:14] have to really make this cost us. [9:16] Otherwise, we'll be back in another few months doing it again. [9:20] And of course, at the beginning of this war, Donald Trump said this was a full regime change [9:26] war and called for the people to rise up and overthrow their government. [9:28] And the people did rise up, Pierce, in support of their martyr Ayatollah and in support of [9:34] this regime. [9:35] I know you saw some of those aerial shots. [9:36] There must have been hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets in Tehran, in the [9:41] most liberal part of the country supporting the regime. [9:45] So I'm sorry, at this point, this just looks like a catastrophe. [9:49] And the best we can hope for at this point is that it only ends up killing like 10,000 [9:53] people and it only ends up costing tens of billions of dollars rather than the 200 that [9:58] Secretary Hegseth has asked for. [9:59] And this all relies on two major factors. [10:02] Think about this, Pierce. [10:03] It's not just that Donald Trump has to call it quit and declare victory or whatever. [10:07] But then we got two other entities that are majorly involved in this war, Iran and Israel. [10:12] Now, we know at this point, Iran is saying they're vowing not to stop. [10:16] They talk a lot of bluster. [10:17] Who knows? [10:17] Maybe they will. [10:18] But Israel, Pierce, we all know they want the regime change here. [10:22] In the 12-day war and in this war already, they've hit targets after Trump has clearly [10:27] asked them not to. [10:28] Who's to say they don't continue doing that? [10:30] And it begs a real question of how we get out of this quagmire. [10:35] Three weeks in, we're already there. [10:36] Right. [10:37] So, Adam, you've had a little spat with Dave on social media when he called it an illegal [10:43] war of aggression on X. [10:45] You said, come on, guy, read the room. [10:48] Dave responded, let's not pretend you read, Adam, to which you replied, I'm able to read [10:52] scoreboards. [10:54] You are losing big time. [10:57] Do you still feel that? [10:57] Do you still feel that? [10:59] Because I would argue that the scoreboards militarily absolutely would show that the United [11:05] States and Israeli combined forces have inflicted enormous damage on Iran's military capability. [11:13] I think that's inarguable. [11:15] However, what I don't think has been properly factored in by the Americans and Israelis is [11:21] the ability of Iran to wage an economic war in parallel to a military war. [11:27] And that by controlling the Strait of Hormuz and by attacking, as they have done, their [11:32] neighboring Gulf states, both oil refineries and tourist hotspots and so on, they've managed [11:38] to freak everybody out and they freak the global markets. [11:44] And this is incredibly damaging to Donald Trump because every day that Strait of Hormuz [11:50] is shut, then you will see the impact for the next few weeks and months coming through [11:55] the U.S. economy and the global economy. [11:57] But the U.S. economy, you know, when fertilizer, when the impact of that being stopped comes [12:04] through in a couple of months time, it takes a while to cut through to the actual people [12:10] of America. [12:10] But it will. [12:12] And when it does, it's going to be very damaging. [12:14] Do you not think that the longer this goes on, the more of a miscalculation has been made [12:20] here? [12:23] Look, I'm not the I'm not the Trump is the all be MAGA guy. [12:27] I'm the guy that was like, yeah, I'm not so sure about this Trump guy. [12:30] You know what? [12:31] Oh, I got the fake news. [12:32] Oh, Russia, Russia, Russia. [12:34] Oh, it turns out. [12:35] Yeah. [12:35] You know, he's way better than the other side. [12:38] So I had to use logic and as a measured approach to get me to the point where I'm like, he's [12:44] the guy. [12:44] So I'll ask you another question. [12:46] Let's say Trump wasn't here. [12:47] What's Kamala doing? [12:49] Oh, no, I don't get me wrong. [12:51] I think Kamala Harris would have been a terrible president. [12:53] I thought Joe Biden was a terrible president. [12:57] And I do. [12:57] I've always said with Trump, I think I find myself agreeing with some of the things he [13:01] does and disagreeing with others, which I think is the right way to deal with Trump. [13:06] I think if you just judge him on what comes out of his mouth. [13:07] Well, that's just like with anything. [13:09] You're not going to agree with everybody and disagree with that. [13:11] Right, right. [13:12] And look, when I came on the PVD podcast, I loved it because we disagree about stuff and [13:18] you guys come on, we disagree, we agree. [13:20] We never fall out over it, nor should anybody. [13:22] But on this specific call about Iran, I did say on day one, I think this is a massive [13:28] gamble and I don't understand the timing. [13:31] And I think the capacity for this to go badly wrong is very high. [13:36] The long day has gone on because Trump originally was like, this is over in days. [13:40] Then it's over in a couple of weeks. [13:42] Then everything started changing. [13:44] Then the regime change he said was going to happen with people rising up. [13:48] None of that has happened. [13:49] There are lots of reasons for it. [13:50] I think the reason we saw so many pro-regime people hit the streets was they were not going [13:55] to get killed doing it. [13:56] We saw in January when people protested against the regime, a lot got killed. [14:01] And obviously there are bombs flying around all over the cities of Iran, which will also [14:06] put people off, I guess. [14:07] So there are also reasons, I guess, why people are protesting or not protesting in certain [14:12] ways. [14:13] But to me, the justification for this war has changed so many times. [14:19] It's made me think I don't think Donald Trump has any clear idea of what victory looks like. [14:25] Do you? [14:25] I mean, if the regime remains intact and they keep their enriched uranium, for example, and [14:31] they maintain control of the Straits of Hormuz, is that victory? [14:35] Well, look, this was not an easy decision. [14:41] You think, you know, these guys have been in power 47 years. [14:44] Everybody in our microwave hustle society wants it done in the next four to seven weeks. [14:49] It's going to take some time. [14:51] And we've already, I was talking to a good Navy SEAL buddy of mine, Navy SEAL. [14:54] He said, dude, we've taken out 80% of their military capacity. [14:58] Not bad in less than a month. [15:00] So let the guy cook a little bit. [15:02] So you also talk about, Dave, that, oh, yeah, they had people out there pro-regime. [15:07] Yeah, nobody's denying that 10 to maybe 20% max of the country is pro-regime. [15:14] But what about the 80% of the country? [15:16] That's like if Dave had a comedy show and there was 100 people that magically showed up to [15:19] Dave's comedy show. [15:21] Oh, my God, he has so many fans. [15:22] Dude, there's 100,000 people outside that didn't go to the show. [15:26] I'm not being like brutish or sarcastic, but just you're taking a small sample size and [15:32] extrapolating that for the entire country. [15:34] We all know what his regime is. [15:37] Well, hang on, Adam. [15:37] We all know that this is a terrorist regime. [15:40] Just to be technically correct on that argument you're making, if 100 people turned up to [15:45] watch Dave's show, then technically over 8 billion chose not to. [15:51] Correct. [15:52] And that's pretty uniform at this point. [15:55] This is really making me feel bad about my numbers on the road. [15:58] It doesn't necessarily mean that 8 billion people. [16:01] It doesn't mean there are 8 billion people who don't like Dave Smith. [16:04] I used to own a couple. [16:06] No, it's fine. [16:07] I mean, I actually do like Dave Smith. [16:08] Let me tell you a Dave Smith story. [16:10] I actually have respect for Dave Smith, but I realized who Dave Smith is, and I would [16:16] say this to his face or on camera. [16:18] Dave Smith is a radical libertarian. [16:21] Don't take my word for it. [16:23] You've said this multiple times. [16:24] Have you not, Dave Smith? [16:26] Said what? [16:27] That I'm a radical libertarian? [16:29] Yes. [16:29] Absolutely. [16:30] Yes. [16:31] Okay. [16:31] Perfect. [16:32] So when you're something, when you're radical, what's another word for radical? [16:38] What's another word for radical? [16:39] What's another word for radical? [16:40] Extremist. [16:41] Okay. [16:42] This is why you call America, this is why you call, sure, this is why you call the U.S. [16:49] military the greatest terrorist organization on earth, right? [16:52] Because you're a true American? [16:54] Because you're a true patriot? [16:55] Is that why, Dave? [16:55] Because something tells me you have what is known as clickbait of the mouth, and you're [17:01] using these instances, these wars, to garner attention for you. [17:06] You're calling, you have the American flag behind you, yet you have the hypocrisy of saying [17:10] the United States military, United States is the greatest terror organization the world [17:15] has ever seen? [17:16] I mean, I don't understand what's going on here. [17:17] This is why you're radical. [17:18] I didn't say, I didn't say the words. [17:19] Well, I tell you what, hang on, to be fair to Dave, let's replay what he actually said [17:26] on this show, which caused all the furore, led by Ben Shapiro. [17:30] We'll play what he said, and I'll play what Shapiro said about it, and blew up, a lot of [17:35] debate raged about it. [17:37] Just, I mean, clarify what you, what you meant. [17:40] Do you regret phrasing it the way you did? [17:43] Just give us a bit more meat on the bone. [17:45] No, I don't, I don't regret phrasing it the way I did, and I'll, I'll be very clear about [17:50] what I'm saying. [17:51] I will, I will point out that it's, it's quite something for Ben Shapiro, just since you played [17:55] him, I got to respond to him first, that he goes, oh, I just won't debate with this guy [18:00] because this is so beyond the pale. [18:02] Ben Shapiro made his name debating 19 year old communist Maoists who were confused about [18:09] their gender. [18:10] So somehow, Pierce, we're going to have to believe here that I'm so much less serious than the [18:15] children who Ben Shapiro made a career debating. [18:17] I loved your response to him where you pointed out some of the goofy segments that he does [18:21] on his show. [18:22] I mean, personally, I really stay away from that stuff. [18:24] And, you know, for Adam, I think to say it's clickbait or that I just want to get out in [18:28] front of the camera. [18:29] I think we're all equally in front of the camera right now, and it's kind of weird to accuse [18:34] someone else. [18:35] I very much believe the things I'm saying. [18:37] Dave. [18:37] Now, to Adam's point. [18:38] Dave, don't run from the comment. [18:40] Don't run from your comment. [18:42] I'm trying to get to it. [18:43] Address the comment, not Ben Shapiro, would you? [18:45] Good. [18:46] Let's go. [18:46] Wrap it up. [18:48] No. [18:48] I'm going to make the points I want to make. [18:50] You called the United States military. [18:52] You're just slowing. [18:53] Okay. [18:53] So I'm going to go in the exact order. [18:55] You called the United States military the greatest terror organization in the world. [18:58] Adam. [18:58] Defend. [18:59] Go. [18:59] Just let me answer. [19:00] No problem. [19:01] I'm going to go back to the order I was going to go in. [19:02] To Adam's point, when Adam says I'm a radical libertarian, and I say that this is true Americanism, [19:08] I mean, look, my favorite founding father is Thomas Paine. [19:12] Not everyone considers him a founding father, and maybe I love him so much because he never [19:15] held a government position and didn't own slaves, which I thought was pretty cool, but [19:18] Benjamin Franklin said he was the most consequentialist and the one person most responsible for the [19:23] United States of America existing. [19:25] His famous pamphlet that he wrote was called Common Sense, and I think on the first or second [19:29] line of it, he says, government is at best a necessary evil. [19:35] So at best, he's like, this is clearly on the anarchist to night watchman state spectrum [19:41] was what true Americanism was when it started. [19:44] Now, for me to say what I made the point, and I've made this point a million times on [19:47] your show, Pierce, I was saying when people come on and say Iran is the biggest state [19:50] sponsor of terrorism, well, just like, give me an objective definition of what terrorism [19:55] means, and then let's apply that standard universally. [19:58] And if you're going to sit here and say, look, America has given billions, tens of billions [20:03] of dollars to the IDF in the last few years, we've also, by the way, given a lot of weapons [20:08] and money. [20:08] Your first guest on this show there, the head of the Obama deep state, was using al-Qaeda [20:14] bin Laden headchoppers on the ground in Libya and in Syria. [20:18] And yes, Adam, I would also consider it when our politicians lie us into wars that slaughter [20:23] millions of innocent people, and in many cases target those innocent people, I consider that [20:28] terrorism as well. [20:29] There's the answer, Adam. [20:31] And if you want to keep doing this, buddy, you could tell me to check the scoreboard. [20:34] I'll run circles around you on this, dude. [20:36] Check the scoreboard. [20:37] Most unpopular war in American history going in. [20:40] Check the scoreboard. [20:41] 13 dead Americans and 150 plus other wounded, thousands of innocents, including little schoolgirls [20:48] in Iran killed, dead innocent Israelis, hundreds of dead innocent people in Lebanon, millions [20:55] of innocent people being displaced, all at the cost of tens of billions of dollars and [21:00] destroying Trump's coalition. [21:02] Check your scoreboard, Adam. [21:03] How's it looking for you? [21:05] Okay, Dave. [21:06] Okay. [21:06] It's not working well for you, Dave, because you're still saying the United States is a [21:13] terrorist organization. [21:15] You've already lost the debate. [21:17] You live in America, tough guy. [21:18] You have the luxury of sitting in your little studio with your hooded sweater like you're [21:23] 17 years old. [21:25] The regime. [21:25] You mean all American presidents? [21:27] I'm 17 years old. [21:27] Who's your favorite president in the last 50 years? [21:30] Adam, I'm 17 years old. [21:31] Who's your favorite president in the last 50 years? [21:32] I have a wife and children. [21:34] Who depends on you, Adam? [21:36] Your mom? [21:38] Okay. [21:39] I also have a significant other. [21:41] If you want to make it personal, you have a significant other. [21:43] Dave, we can go as personal as you want. [21:45] We can go as personal as you want. [21:45] No, I'm trying not to. [21:46] We can go as personal as we respond to one thing, Adam. [21:49] I don't care, Dave. [21:49] Adam, some substance. [21:50] I don't care. [21:51] I know, because you don't know anything. [21:52] You're a radical. [21:53] Move on. [21:54] So stop picking a fight with me, dude. [21:55] You don't know anything about anything. [21:58] You're Pat's guy. [21:59] I know. [21:59] I like you, dude. [22:00] I like you. [22:01] I like you, Shelly. [22:01] I respect Pat. [22:03] Dave. [22:03] Okay. [22:04] Zay, zip it. [22:05] Here we go. [22:05] I'll talk now for a second. [22:07] You're defending the military right now. [22:09] You're basically saying that all our boys that go to the military are all terrorists. [22:13] That's what you're saying. [22:14] No. [22:15] You're equating that the United States of America, the IDF, are the equivalent of ISIS [22:20] and Al-Qaeda. [22:21] By the way, I also used to respect you until you went on a little podcast called Coleman [22:28] Hughes. [22:29] What happened on that podcast, Dave? [22:31] This is the problem. [22:33] I'll tell you a quick story. [22:34] Why don't you do it right now, Adam? [22:35] Why don't you do it? [22:36] I'll do it right now, Dave. [22:38] I'll do it right now. [22:39] Go for it. [22:39] Because here's what Dave is. [22:41] Here's Dave Smith. [22:42] By the way, 1% of Americans vote for libertarians every year. [22:46] So you're trying to basically say that you know more than the average American. [22:50] 1% of Americans vote for your people, Dave. [22:53] Why don't you run for something? [22:55] Why don't you stand for something? [22:56] You stand for nothing. [22:58] Okay. [22:58] Can I respond? [22:59] Nothing. [22:59] Here we go. [23:03] I'm going to tell you a story, Dave, and then you can respond because this is where I lost [23:07] respect for you as a debater because I was like, oh, this guy, Dave, he actually knows [23:12] some stuff. [23:12] He's doing his thing. [23:13] And then you showed up on Coleman Hughes podcast. [23:17] Pierce, do you know who Coleman Hughes is? [23:18] I do. [23:19] You've been on the show. [23:20] I've been on the show with him. [23:21] Perfect. [23:23] Perfect. [23:24] That's this guy right here, just in case, if the camera doesn't see. [23:27] But what is the point you're making? [23:28] I watched this podcast. [23:30] The point is this. [23:31] Dave gets out there and he tries to bully people and say that he's so smart. [23:35] He reads a lot. [23:36] A lot of books. [23:37] Good for you, Dave. [23:38] But what happens when you read it to somebody, run into somebody who's way smarter and bullies [23:43] the bully? [23:44] I remember growing up in the town of Miami, there was this kid who used to pick on all [23:47] the kids that we were to school with. [23:49] And one day, some new kid showed up and he goes, oh, yeah, yeah, let's go, buddy. [23:54] Let's do this. [23:54] And the bully goes, oh, what do you mean? [23:55] What do you want to do? [23:56] And he goes, oh, yeah, you want to fight everybody? [23:58] You want to take everybody's lunch? [23:59] Let's go. [24:00] And the new kid beat the crap out of the bully. [24:03] And here's what happened with Dave. [24:05] He's out there just doing his little podcast thing, debating, like you said, Ben Shapiro, [24:09] a 19-year-old. [24:10] And then all of a sudden, this whole conversation about Wesley Clark, and I saw him on your podcast [24:15] about a week ago, Pierce, and this memo, here you go, Dave. [24:18] Remember this memo from Wesley Clark that you used to cite everything? [24:22] This is adorable. [24:23] You used to cite, yeah, that is adorable, because your whole foundation is based on [24:29] some memo. [24:29] Well, I'm not quite sure what, Adam, I'm not quite sure what is the point you're making? [24:35] The point is that Dave has zero credibility at this point. [24:38] Dave has zero credibility at this point. [24:39] Well, you don't really get to decide that. [24:41] And he ran into somebody that completely bullied, what audience, the four people that [24:46] show up to your comedy show at the ha-ha? [24:49] Yeah. [24:49] Okay, Dave, you respond. [24:51] Okay, can I respond now? [24:52] Because I listened while you said nothing there. [24:53] I mean, the question I'd ask you, Dave, the question I'd ask you, Dave, is the way that [24:57] you'll... [24:57] Well, let me respond to some of that here. [24:58] I will, yeah, but I will ask you just on a general level. [25:02] How are you going to respond to what Coleman Hills did you? [25:04] There was like a body bag after that to be honest. [25:07] Well, you ain't doing nothing, bro. [25:09] You're sitting here talking about what another man did. [25:12] You've already been in a body bag, Dave. [25:14] I'm here to clean up the scraps. [25:15] Okay, let me just ask Dave this, which is, as you know, the comment you made about America [25:21] being a terrorist state and so on, that went pretty viral. [25:24] Do you understand why a lot of people got very angry about the perceived equivalence between [25:31] America and terror organizations like ISIS, like Al-Qaeda, and so on? [25:36] Yeah, no, well, listen, I mean, there's no question that the head shopping... [25:39] I don't think he does, but go ahead. [25:41] Hey, Adam, Adam, I mean, just let me talk now. [25:43] I understand all you can do here is interrupt and hold up problems, but let me make a few [25:47] good points. [25:47] You said that America is a terrorist organization. [25:50] You've already lost the debate. [25:51] Go ahead. [25:52] No, I haven't, actually, and that's not... [25:54] You don't really get to decide in the middle of the debate whether I have. [25:57] It's who moves people more than the other one is really, I guess, the metric, but... [26:01] You're 1% libertarian. [26:03] You're really moving people. [26:04] You're really moving people. [26:05] I mean, Adam, this will just be your tactic for the rest of it because you're out of your [26:11] depth, but here... [26:12] Okay, yes, actually, I didn't vote for the libertarian nominee. [26:14] Donald Trump came to the Libertarian Party convention and tried to convince a lot of [26:20] us to support him, and I'm one of the people who did, and now I'm one of the people who's [26:23] criticizing this policy. [26:25] Now, in terms of... [26:26] Obviously, Pierce, it's a provocative statement. [26:28] I know that when I make it. [26:29] And I'm not claiming that the American military men are the equivalent of ISIS or Al-Qaeda. [26:36] Obviously, they're much more barbaric. [26:38] These headchoppers, the one who Leon Panetta and Barack Obama all sold weapons to and partnered [26:45] with, and the one who Donald Trump recognized as the president of Syria, I'm not saying that [26:49] they don't... [26:50] One isn't more barbaric than the other. [26:52] I'm simply making the point, Pierce, that if you define terrorism as targeting civilians [26:56] in order to affect a political change, then by that objective definition, the U.S. military [27:01] and the IDF are more guilty of it than anyone else over the last 25 years. [27:06] Their argument is always that the U.S. military and the IDF do not deliberately target civilians. [27:15] Yes, Pierce, but again, Pierce, we've been through this... [27:18] I'm just saying, for the benefit of that, this is their argument, whereas the difference [27:23] being that genuine terror groups like ISIS, like Al-Qaeda, they deliberately and brazenly [27:30] target civilians for political purposes. [27:33] Pierce, Pierce, when you have roaming blackouts for nine days in Cuba because we've embargoed [27:40] the energy that can go there, I'm sorry, that is targeting the civilian population. [27:44] When Hamas slow-rolls the remains of dead Israeli prisoners, excuse me, whatever, I don't know, [27:53] I get in trouble for using the wrong word, the dead Israelis that they were holding captive, [27:57] even after all the live ones are out, and the response from the Israeli government is we're [28:01] going to cut the aid to the civilian population in half, that is targeting civilians. [28:06] And when you drop bombs all over cities and you know that innocent civilians are going to [28:11] be killed, that's targeting civilians. [28:13] Now, as far as some of the other stuff here, look, in terms of the debate with Coleman, [28:18] I encourage people to go watch that. [28:20] It's only people who already disagreed with me going in who say I got body bagged there. [28:25] The rest of the people tend to say, oh, it was kind of a good, respectful back and forth, [28:29] and both people had some moments. [28:31] But for Adam to say I only debated children up until Coleman, I debated Dennis Prager, [28:36] I debated Douglas Murray, I debated Josh Hammer at an Oxford-style debate at Princeton University, [28:42] and absolutely smoked him on the Oxford-style voting. [28:45] I debated him again at Charlie Kirk's event. [28:47] I've been coming on this show. [28:48] How many debates have me and you done, Pierce? [28:50] I've been willing to debate whoever wants to debate this subject for over two years now. [28:55] And so to say that I'm just being Ben Shapiro and going around to college campuses and debating [29:01] 19-year-old dudes in wigs claiming to be women, it's just not true, man. [29:06] I debated Chris Cuomo right in front of you, Adam, the biggest host at CNN. [29:11] So I just think this is ridiculous. [29:13] Coleman made some—listen, I'm not going to say a negative thing about Coleman. [29:17] He didn't attack me. [29:18] He went at the issues, and I really appreciate and respect that. [29:20] I've actually been trying to host him on my podcast. [29:23] I hope he'll do it. [29:25] Okay, Adam, your response. [29:27] Yeah, and listen, I do respect the fact that Dave does show up. [29:32] He does. [29:32] I mean, that's like, okay, cool, you showed up. [29:35] Respect to that. [29:36] I will give Dave credit. [29:38] But, Dave, and this is why I'm going to keep going back to this, [29:40] to pretend that it was an even match, an even debate. [29:45] He puts you in a body bag, and you're out here still, [29:49] still doubling down on all your positions when he went methodically and surgically. [29:55] This is the saddest thing. [29:56] I've never been in a debate where someone just fell back to someone else's debate. [30:00] Boom, boom, boom. [30:01] Name one of the booms. [30:02] Make the point for yourself. [30:03] Me and you are supposed to be debating here, brother. [30:06] The memo from Wesley Clark, your whole foundation for your Israel— [30:12] so listen up, little guy—so your whole foundation for Israel dragging America into war [30:19] was that this memo from Wesley Clark showed up, [30:23] and that's the reason that America got suckered into the Iraq War, [30:27] because Israel convinced him to do it. [30:29] And he went and surgically and methodically and very calmly was like, [30:33] Dave, you don't know what you're talking about. [30:35] Your entire foundation crumbled. [30:38] And you're dipping, you're doing your little things. [30:40] Can I respond? [30:40] Or you're doing your nicotine. [30:41] Can I respond to this? [30:42] So, but the point is this. [30:44] Your Holland's open, the three-hour debate with Coleman Hughes, [30:50] it wasn't close, Dave. [30:52] And that's fine. [30:53] You want to sort of be a revisionist. [30:54] That's your opinion. [30:55] No, I'm not being revisionist. [30:56] We went point for point. [30:57] No, Dave, that was any person with logic. [31:01] You didn't have a response. [31:02] Adam, Adam, Adam. [31:02] Your only response was, go read the book. [31:05] Adam, it is an unusual position. [31:07] It's not ridiculous. [31:08] Adam, it's an unusual position that I've had you guys on. [31:11] I've had you guys on to debate so far. [31:14] Well, I said, this guy is actually a lightweight. [31:17] He's actually a lightweight. [31:18] Adam, Adam. [31:19] This is that moment for you for a lot of people, Adam. [31:22] So, congratulations. [31:23] My point to you, Adam, is simply to be, it's an unusual debating strategy to spend 10 minutes [31:28] of this debate talking about another debate that most viewers may not have seen. [31:33] Yes, it's pretty ridiculous. [31:34] I mean, there's other debates that we can bring up. [31:36] The fact, Dave, when's the last time you were in the Middle East? [31:38] Go ahead. [31:40] Okay. [31:40] So, this is what you're falling back to now. [31:43] Yeah, right. [31:43] No, you know the answer. [31:44] You're not asking. [31:46] I don't know the answer. [31:47] I have not been to the Middle East. [31:50] Go do your best Douglas Murray acting job. [31:52] Adam, brother, I was prepared to come in here on friendly terms. [31:55] You are humiliating yourself right now, dude. [31:58] I don't care if you're here to be friends. [31:59] I'm really not. [32:00] You're humiliating yourself right now. [32:02] Yeah, you are. [32:02] You've been humiliating yourself for the past two years, basically saying that America is [32:08] a terrorist organization, that the IDF is a terrorist organization, and you're whitewashing [32:13] actual terrorism. [32:16] What are your thoughts on Islamic terrorism coming into the West? [32:19] What are your thoughts on the war in the West? [32:20] What do you think of ISIS? [32:21] It's a huge... [32:22] Wait, are you asking me questions? [32:23] Go ahead. [32:24] It's a huge... [32:25] It's a huge... [32:25] I'm asking you a question. [32:26] And it's a huge... [32:27] It's a huge risk, especially right now after we just murdered an Ayatollah and his whole family. [32:32] What's a huge risk? [32:33] What's a huge risk? [32:34] Blowback terrorism is a huge problem. [32:37] I'm not asking, Dave. [32:37] Getting not secure borders is a nightmare of a policy. [32:40] I'm not talking about... [32:41] I'm not talking about blowback terrorism. [32:45] Do you see what's going on in the West? [32:46] Do you see what's going on where Piers Morgan lives in London? [32:50] Do you see what's going on all over the world? [32:52] I've been an advocate of strict immigration controls for many years. [32:55] By the way, by the way, you're just making stuff up because you have nothing, dude. [32:59] By the way, Adam, you just said that America is a terrorist organization. [33:04] Adam, if you brought my country into it. [33:06] I'm anti-American, and here I am as a proud American saying that he doesn't know what he's [33:10] talking about. [33:11] You said that they couldn't talk about the Middle East because he hasn't been there much. [33:15] When was the last time you were in England? [33:20] I spent much time in England. [33:22] My ex-wife was Welsh. [33:23] When was the last time? [33:24] She wasn't a sheep shagger. [33:25] When was the last time? [33:26] The last time I was in Europe, in England, in the Middle East. [33:31] Where would you like me to go? [33:32] England. [33:32] The last time I was in England was about eight years ago. [33:37] Right. [33:37] So this idea, let me tell you. [33:38] The last time I was in Israel. [33:39] Let me tell you. [33:40] The last time I was in Israel. [33:41] This idea. [33:42] Oh, Adam. [33:43] There is a weird idea. [33:45] Do we have to put this episode out? [33:46] I like Adam. [33:47] We don't have to help it. [33:48] Oh, Adam. [33:49] There are many people on the... [33:51] Are you saying that you're not going to a country? [33:53] Adam, many people on the conservative right in America, sitting down to the illusion that [33:59] my country has been taken over by radical Muslims. [34:03] Let me tell you. [34:04] I have lived here on and off for the last eight years, unlike you. [34:07] And respectfully, we have not been taken over by radical Muslims. [34:12] It just hasn't happened the way it's been sold by people like Tommy Robinson to Americans. [34:18] And you're all laughing it out. [34:19] How would you define it then, Piers? [34:20] How would you define it then, Piers? [34:22] I think we have a Muslim population, which is predominantly peaceful and inclusive and [34:29] settled well. [34:30] And we have some radical members of radical Muslims, as we have radical members of other [34:37] religions in this country. [34:38] And we have to be very wary about it. [34:40] What other members of radical... [34:42] Hang on. [34:42] Hang on. [34:43] What other members of radical religions? [34:44] Hang on. [34:44] And we have had severe immigration control issues run by the excessive conservative and [34:52] labor governments who, frankly, lost control of our border, both to illegal immigration, [34:58] but also allowed way too many people in legally. [35:01] And these are proper, legitimate things to be discussed. [35:04] But framing it, as some people like to do, as my country's been overrun and overtaken by [35:10] radical Muslims, it's just a lie. [35:12] It's just not true. [35:13] So, yes, there are things to be concerned about. [35:16] And, yes, I want to see everyone who comes here assimilate, and everyone who lives here [35:21] assimilate into our culture. [35:23] Of course I do. [35:25] But this idea that we've been overrun and overtaken is nonsense. [35:30] Yeah. [35:31] Piers, can I just make one... [35:32] So you think it's all gone out of the way out? [35:33] Yeah, everything that everybody is saying about Sharia law being imposed in London and [35:38] Birmingham... [35:39] It hasn't been imposed here. [35:39] You're saying that it's overblown? [35:40] It hasn't been imposed here. [35:42] Okay, anyway... [35:43] There are a number of unofficial Sharia courts operating. [35:48] They have no legal basis or standing in the UK whatsoever. [35:52] There is no Sharia law being operated legally in this country. [35:56] End. [35:57] It doesn't happen. [35:58] Thank you, Piers. [35:58] Thank you for enlightening me. [35:59] So you're saying it's all overblown that... [36:02] Why don't you come over with the whole PBD team and let me take you on a guided tour of the [36:08] UK. [36:09] And trust me, you'll be fine. [36:11] There you go. [36:12] I'm sure you're going to all the nicest... [36:14] I'll treat you to a pint of foaming ale, the fish and chips, the cricket... [36:17] I'm sure you're not going to Birmingham or Brick Lane or anything like that. [36:21] I love Brick Lane, best curries in England. [36:23] I love Birmingham. [36:24] Fantastic place. [36:25] Incredible Bangladeshi curry. [36:27] I'll take you there. [36:29] My central thesis here is that Dave thinks that the United States military and the IDF [36:34] are the equivalent of the Ayatollah and the Hezbollah and the Hamas. [36:39] You've made that point, Dave. [36:40] Final point to you. [36:41] Final point to you. [36:42] I think we all kind of agree that open borders and lack of immigration restrictions are not [36:48] very sound policy and that those ought to not be in place. [36:51] But I do just want to say to the, I guess, almost brushed up against... [36:54] Isn't that what libertarians believe in, though? [36:57] Don't libertarians believe in open borders, Dave? [36:59] Let him finish. [36:59] Anyway, let me just finish one point, Adam. [37:01] Since you have nothing to say, just let me finish the point. [37:04] Anyway, no. [37:05] Libertarians don't believe in that. [37:06] I certainly don't. [37:07] You've been in a body bag for about a year now. [37:08] Don't let me finish. [37:09] Yeah, great, great, great. [37:10] Okay. [37:11] I've been in a body bag anyway. [37:12] Let's see what the reaction to this one is. [37:14] Let's see what the reaction to this debate is, okay? [37:17] We'll take a look at that when it comes out. [37:19] Sure. [37:19] Anyway, but the idea that my argument... [37:21] We can gladly do that. [37:22] You're defending terrorism and you think the United States is a terrorist organization. [37:27] All right. [37:28] Let's see what rational magic people think. [37:29] Go ahead, Dave. [37:30] Let's see. [37:31] Okay. [37:31] Anyway, the idea that, you know, you're making the point that the General Wesley Clark thing has [37:35] been torn apart and that that was my entire case for Israel trying to push America into [37:40] these wars is absolutely ridiculous. [37:42] There's much more to it than that. [37:43] And that hasn't been torn apart. [37:46] Pierce, is anyone going to seriously argue that Israel trying to push us into this war with [37:51] Iran isn't a factor as Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest serving prime minister in Israeli [37:56] history, brags about how this is the culmination of his entire life's work? [38:00] Well, not just that. [38:01] He's been advocating this for my entire life. [38:03] Well, Marco Rubio, Marco Rubio, Secretary of State, said it very clearly that America [38:08] preemptively got involved in the strikes because Israel were going to attack Iran. [38:13] And so America thought there would be revenge attacks against American interests and got in first. [38:17] And Netanyahu's been coming here every other week to try to lobby Trump into this war. [38:22] Guys, I've got to say that Trump is that big of a buffoon that he just gets dragged into [38:29] wars. [38:30] Please come back again another time. [38:32] I'd love to have you on. [38:34] Dave, always good to see you. [38:35] I sadly got to leave you there. [38:37] But I appreciate it both very much. [38:38] Thank you. [38:39] Enjoy that body bag, Adam. [38:41] Enjoy that body bag. [38:42] Look out for the comment section. [38:43] Really, you know, this isn't a shot at anybody, but this is just for your audiences. [38:54] Look, there's so much propaganda and misinformation that flows from people who are trying to get [39:00] attention or make money on social media that it's almost impossible for regular folks who [39:07] live their lives and have families and trying to do the right thing to know the truth. [39:11] So I'm glad you have me on because this is the educational portion of the Piers Morgan [39:19] program where we back up everything we say. [39:23] We don't get into these insane conspiracies or talk off the cuff. [39:29] We know what we're talking about. [39:31] So thanks for having me back. [39:33] Bill, always great to have you. [39:34] You know that. [39:35] And the Iran war, what is your overview about where we are? [39:40] And do you think that Donald Trump miscalculated how Iran would respond, in particular in relation [39:48] to the economic war they've been waging with the Straits of Formos and the way they've attacked [39:54] the Gulf? [39:55] They were in Gulf states with their oil refineries and with tourist spots and so on. [40:01] OK, I'm going to do a stair step here. [40:03] In every single war that's ever been fought in the history of mankind, there have been [40:08] miscalculations, every one, because the fog of war cliche is true. [40:15] Once you start to unleash violence on a mass level, you can't predict what will happen. [40:22] And mistakes are always made by the victors and the people who lose. [40:28] So that's history. [40:29] Now, I did an interview with Lindsey Graham on my podcast called We'll Do It Live. [40:37] That can be seen everywhere on BillOReilly.com is where we live. [40:41] And it's probably the best informational, OK, interview ever done on the subject of the [40:50] Iranian action. [40:51] Because Graham, although he is a hawk, is privy to, A, intel information on a daily basis, [41:01] and, B, has Trump's ear. [41:04] Speaks to him all the time. [41:07] Graham laid out why the administration did what it did. [41:12] Now, you can disagree with it. [41:14] You can think it's foolish. [41:15] But the facts are that there was a reason to do this, and the reason still has been undefined. [41:27] So the messaging of the reason wasn't really put out there so the world could consume it. [41:34] Graham did that in my one-hour conversation to him, very precisely. [41:40] So if you really wanted to know why America attacked Iran and Israel as our ally, you listen [41:49] to that, all right? [41:51] And it's unimpeachable. [41:52] Nobody has said, oh, he's not telling the truth. [41:55] Oh, this isn't true. [41:56] It is true. [41:58] Now, as far as calculating cause and effect, yeah, I mean, it struck me that the Trump administration [42:06] should have anticipated a problem in the Strait of Hormuz and might have bombed that area [42:14] to make it more difficult for the Iranians to attack the tankers. [42:19] But I'm second-guessing now American and Israeli intel and the Pentagon, and I'm not really qualified [42:28] to second-guess it. [42:30] But as an American, that's a legitimate question. [42:34] The one factor that hasn't been reported or discussed is China. [42:41] China gets 80% of Iran's oil. [42:44] Did you know that, Pierce? [42:45] Yeah. [42:47] 80%. [42:48] China's lifeline is Putin and Iran for 1.5 billion people to have energy. [42:57] Trump has to take that into account. [43:02] That is an enormous factor here. [43:05] You have not heard China say much about Iran. [43:08] They certainly haven't stuck up for the mullahs. [43:10] They have not. [43:13] So I suspect, in addition to the negotiations that are taking place between the United States [43:18] and Iran, and nobody knows who's in charge in Iran, other negotiations very secretly are [43:25] being done between Washington and Beijing. [43:29] That would have to happen because it's so volatile. [43:35] China is not going to allow itself to be starved of energy. [43:39] Okay. [43:41] But explain to me how any of this is consistent with Donald Trump, the presidential candidate [43:48] in 2024, saying that he would not take America into any more senseless Middle Eastern wars [43:56] because they were way too expensive, both on economy and human life, that he would focus [44:02] on America first, sorting out the problems in America. [44:06] He'd make it secure at the border, which he's done to his credit, and that he would bring [44:11] the cost of living down and he would reduce inflation and get rid of it. [44:15] How does any of what he's done with Iran tick any of those boxes? [44:20] Because from where I'm sitting, it looks like he's done the complete opposite to what he campaigned on. [44:26] Well, you're asking a very legitimate question, but things change. [44:34] So the threat level in Iran changed. [44:36] And the information, and Graham spelled this out again in the podcast I did with him, was [44:45] that, yes, the United States destroyed about 75 percent of the Iranian nuclear capacity last [44:55] June, but they were weeks away from enriching uranium now so that they could make a nuclear [45:03] weapon, a low-level one if they wanted, and hand it off. [45:07] Trump got that intel. [45:10] Then he got intel from Assad, from Israel, that all the mullers are going to be in one place [45:16] at one time. [45:17] This is after six weeks of negotiation, where the Iranians basically said to the Americans, [45:23] hey, blank you, give us the middle finger, we're going to do what we want. [45:28] We don't care what you say. [45:31] Now, I talked to Donald Trump myself, one-on-one, private conversation, on the phone, one week [45:37] before the U.S. military action was launched. [45:42] And that entire conversation was about making a deal. [45:47] Trump did not want to do this. [45:51] He didn't want to use military action. [45:53] And we discussed various ways that a deal might happen. [45:59] My emphasis was on Beijing, okay? [46:02] Get them in a position where we'll help them in a way that they need, China, in return for [46:10] they pressure the mullers to give up their nuclear construction. [46:16] That was my idea, okay? [46:18] But then, in the final meeting in Geneva with Witkoff and the Iranian representatives, okay, [46:28] Iran said, look, there's no sense in talking any further. [46:31] We're not going to stop. [46:34] Now, when you say that to President Trump, what do you think's going to happen? [46:39] He's not remembering what his campaign slogan was. [46:43] He's saying, these guys are serious. [46:46] They're going to build a nuke. [46:48] And I believe they'll use it. [46:50] And I'm not taking the chance. [46:52] And I got to, when the call came in, all of them are going to be in the same place. [46:57] We're going to go knock them out. [47:00] I would have done the same thing. [47:02] How about you? [47:04] Well, I think, again, there's an inconsistency, I would argue, between the rhetoric that followed [47:09] the 12-day war last summer, where everyone was assured we've neutralized the nuclear threat [47:16] from Iran. [47:17] And within nine, ten months, apparently, it's all been rejuvenated. [47:22] I find that... [47:22] No, no, no. [47:22] I find that... [47:23] Well, I just think... [47:24] Nobody... [47:24] But some part of that, Bill, some part of that argument doesn't ring true. [47:29] Either it wasn't true when they first said it, or it wasn't true in February. [47:34] They can't both be true. [47:35] If you can show me a quote where they said, all of Iranians' nuclear weapon capacity has [47:43] been destroyed, I will see the point. [47:46] I can't find that quote. [47:48] Not all, but they made it clear. [47:51] Let me hypothesize... [47:52] They made it clear that they badly, badly harmed Iran's ability to do it. [47:59] That's true. [48:00] But there were other labs working on the same thing that were not destroyed. [48:08] And let me offer you a different hypothesis, which I'm not saying necessarily I subscribe [48:12] to this, but just hear me out, which is the 12-day war, a bit like the strike on Venezuela [48:17] to get rid of Maduro. [48:18] The 12-day war was incredibly precise, incredibly successful, almost zero damage to any American [48:27] personnel or interests, fantastic, successful, and notable for the very muted response from [48:35] the Iranians. [48:36] And I think you then move to what happened in Venezuela. [48:40] Again, very precise military strike, no loss of life to American service people, the capture [48:48] of the Venezuelan president taken to custody in New York, and a brilliant success again. [48:55] I think Trump was riding high off the back of that. [48:59] And I think the Israelis were pushing hard. [49:01] Yes, we've got the Ayatollah here with all these people. [49:03] If we decapitate the regime, it'll be exactly like Venezuela. [49:07] You'll neutralize this problem. [49:09] And I think Trump decided to go for it. [49:12] And I think as he looks at it now, he realized that this is a very, very different situation [49:17] to Venezuela. [49:19] I think they've miscalculated just how skillfully, and I use that purely as a description of, [49:25] I think, how their strategy has been, how skillfully the Iranians have controlled the [49:30] Straits of Hormuz and how they have attacked their Gulf neighbors to get them in line as well [49:37] and make tourists fearful and make expats want to leave, how they've attacked refineries [49:43] there in response to their own refineries being attacked and has been incredibly destabilizing [49:47] to the Gulf states. [49:48] I think you put it all together. [49:50] And I think Donald Trump has, I've been in a long time, aren't you? [49:53] I think he's reached a point with this where it's gone way bigger than he calculated, way [49:59] longer than he thought it would go, and that he has underestimated Iran's ability to not [50:05] fight back militarily, but to fight back economically. [50:09] And that that is going to be politically toxic for him. [50:12] And he now needs an off-ramp. [50:14] And the question then becomes, what is the off-ramp which looks like victory? [50:19] And I think it's a tricky one. [50:21] I really do. [50:22] To claim a victory, if the Iranian regime remains in place, and if you see no uprising [50:29] from the Iranian people, and if America does not get a commitment to either hand over the [50:35] enriched uranium or goes in and gets it, which would be boots on the ground, which would [50:40] be disastrous, I don't see any easy off-ramp here. [50:44] Do you? [50:46] Well, no. [50:47] But you're spouting a theory. [50:49] Yeah. [50:50] It may be right, but it doesn't jive with what my information flow is, because as I said, [50:58] Trump didn't want this military action. [50:59] It wasn't his arrogance that, oh, I kicked then as well as butt, so now I can do the same [51:05] thing in Iran. [51:06] I mean, he would have told me if you wanted it, that's what we would have discussed. [51:11] How did you go about it militarily? [51:13] That's not what we discussed. [51:16] It was how to get a deal. [51:18] So going forward, here's how I see it. [51:22] Iran's going to have to make a deal, because Trump's not going to stop. [51:27] And if he has to lose the midterms, he'll lose the midterms. [51:32] Remember, he doesn't have to run again. [51:34] Okay? [51:34] He's not stopping. [51:36] He's not going to say, oh, we lost, ever. [51:41] That's number one. [51:42] So the deal is going to look like Iran will allow weapons inspectors in, probably from [51:49] the UN, to examine what's going on with the nukes. [51:53] They'll stop enriching, and they will destroy their ballistic missile capacity, which is [52:01] already almost destroyed. [52:03] So we're only talking about a few missiles, not many. [52:06] Okay? [52:07] In return, there'll be more favorable economic treatment for Iran on a rebuild basis. [52:16] Trump knows he's not going to get regime change. [52:18] So that's, you know, he can save a rattle on it, but that's not going to happen unless [52:23] the Persian people rise up. [52:25] And, you know, with these people gunning you down in the street, you know, you're a student [52:31] of history a little bit, Pierce, in 1945, when the Russians were coming in from the east [52:38] and the Allies coming in from the west to Berlin, the German people didn't rise up against [52:42] Hitler. [52:44] Nobody rose up against Hitler in Germany because the SS would shoot you down in the street. [52:50] That's the same thing going on in Iran. [52:52] So likely, and I think within a space of a couple of weeks, this thing will cease and [53:04] some kind of an arrangement will be made so that the Mullahs can tell their people they [53:09] didn't lose, and Trump can tell his people they won. [53:15] We won. [53:15] America won. [53:17] That's what's likely to happen. [53:19] Bill O'Reilly, I will invite you back in two weeks' time, and we shall see. [53:24] If I'm not deported, I may be in Portugal. [53:29] You know what? [53:29] You'll be even nearer to me, Bill. [53:31] Get on a plane to London. [53:32] Yeah. [53:33] Great to have you. [53:34] We're coming to England at the end of May, and you're going to do an interview with me. [53:42] I'm telling you you're going to do it, or I'm coming to your house, about this Muslim [53:47] intrusion on London. [53:50] Let's talk about it. [53:52] Okay, so you're in, right? [53:53] I'm happy to talk about that. [53:54] All right. [53:56] Excellent. [53:57] We'll set it on up. [53:58] Thanks for having me on the program. [53:58] And I'd love to see you on the set of Uncensored while you're here. [54:01] It'd be great. [54:03] Okay. [54:04] Bill, great to have you. [54:05] Thanks very much. [54:07] Well, Jesse Ventura is a former U.S. Navy SEAL, a former professional wrestler, a former [54:11] actor, and a former governor of Minnesota. [54:13] We've had many memorable interviews over the years. [54:15] I'm pleased to say he joins me again now. [54:18] Jesse, how are you? [54:21] I'm doing good, Piers. [54:22] It's been a long time for you and I. [54:24] I tried to retire, but unfortunately, they sent the Gestapo to my high school and they [54:34] hit it with chemical weapons, which are a war crime. [54:38] And that brought me back out of retirement to stand up against the war criminal in the [54:42] White House. [54:43] Wow. [54:44] Well, that sounds suitably dramatic. [54:48] Well, that's the way it happened. [54:50] I mean, I was retired. [54:52] I hadn't watched the news since the last election. [54:56] My son said, you're way better, Dad. [54:58] You're not tense anymore. [55:00] Keep it up. [55:01] And then, lo and behold, these ICE characters, I call them the Gestapo, and I think I can do [55:06] that. [55:07] And let me get something straight right now, Piers, so people know where I'm coming from. [55:12] My Uncle Emil fought in World War I. [55:15] My parents both fought in World War II. [55:18] My father had six bronze battle stars in Europe. [55:22] My mother was a nurse in North Africa, which predated Normandy, fighting Rommel, the desert [55:28] fox, the greatest German general. [55:30] Both my parents were World War II veterans. [55:33] My brother and I are both Vietnam veterans and member of the Navy UDT SEAL. [55:38] We both did two tours to Southeast Asia. [55:41] So everyone in my family is a war veteran. [55:45] I wanted to get that out right now so it'll help with the things that I'm going to say [55:50] to you in the moments to come. [55:54] So ICE agents came to your school, you said? [55:59] What's that? [56:00] You said the ICE agents came to your school. [56:04] Yeah. [56:05] The ICE agents came to the school where I went to high school chasing some guy down just like [56:11] the Gestapo. [56:12] And I heard people were offended calling them that. [56:15] Really? [56:15] See, I can tell you right now, if my parents would have been alive and they would have seen [56:20] what happened in Minneapolis, they would have called it the Gestapo, too. [56:25] So they come to my school. [56:27] They use tear gas and pepper spray at the school. [56:30] Now, here's a question I have, Piers. [56:32] My uncle Emo fought in World War I, and he was gassed. [56:37] He came home, but his life was ruined. [56:39] He could never do anything. [56:41] What did they do? [56:42] They outlawed it. [56:43] Gas using chemical weapons became a war crime. [56:48] Why is it that you can't use them on your enemy, but you're allowed to use them on your [56:53] own people? [56:54] That has always been, where is the media on this? [56:58] You know, using chemical weapons against our own people, which is, in essence, a war crime. [57:05] Well, I think I wouldn't describe the gas used by ICE agents as chemical weapons. [57:10] I mean, that that infers the weapons of mass destruction. [57:13] Tear gas, they're spraying people from six inches away right in their face. [57:18] I can't use that in war. [57:21] I wasn't allowed to carry tear gas or any type of chemical weapon in war. [57:26] It's banned from war. [57:28] It's considered a war crime. [57:30] You can't use it against your enemy, but you can use it against your own people. [57:35] Doesn't something ring wrong there for you, Piers? [57:37] Well, a lot rang wrong about what was going on in Minnesota, and I'm very glad that it [57:44] has been resolved, at least for now. [57:47] And I think it hasn't been resolved. [57:48] Well, no, not completely. [57:50] Nothing's been resolved. [57:51] No, I understand. [57:52] We have two dead people here. [57:55] Two people were killed by the Gestapo here. [57:58] Yeah, I understand. [57:59] And those investigations are ongoing, but at least the ICE activity that was going on and [58:03] the way it was being conducted has been removed from Minnesota, which is a good thing. [58:08] And I thought what happened was appalling. [58:10] And I said so at the time. [58:12] Let me ask you about Iran and your view of this war. [58:16] Well, here's how I feel about it. [58:21] There's a simple thing as a leader, and you know this having been in the military. [58:27] Trump wouldn't know it because he's a draft-dodging coward. [58:30] But anyway, it's this. [58:33] A war is justified if you're willing to send your kids. [58:37] Because how can you send somebody else's kids to a war if you won't send your own? [58:43] So I'm calling right now for Barron Trump. [58:46] Donald Trump's on, you know, after all, he's had three wives. [58:49] He's had kids by each wife, and nobody's ever served in the military. [58:54] To my knowledge, a Trump in the last hundred years has never done military service. [59:00] Well, Barron, you can change that. [59:02] Enlist in the United States military right now. [59:05] Do something your father didn't have the courage to do. [59:09] Do something your father didn't have the patriotism to do. [59:12] I want to see a Trump in the military. [59:15] Everybody in my family has served. [59:17] So I think I can say that with all due confidence. [59:21] Come on, Trumps. [59:22] Don't just reap the benefits of this free world. [59:26] Somebody put on the uniform, and that's you, Barron. [59:28] And I heard the excuse that Barron might be too tall. [59:32] Uh-uh. [59:33] David Robinson served on active duty. [59:37] He was seven feet tall before he ever went to the San Antonio Spurs basketball team. [59:43] David Robinson went to the United States Navy Military Academy. [59:48] He's one of my officers, not directly, but he would have been. [59:52] Okay, look, it's one argument that a Trump should serve. [59:55] That's a perfectly reasonable argument to make. [59:58] A lot of people feel that way. [59:59] But it doesn't change what's going on in Iran. [1:00:02] What is your view of this war? [1:00:04] Do you think it's a legitimate war? [1:00:06] Many people think that the Iranian regime has been the instrument of terror through the Middle East for 48 years. [1:00:13] Of course they have been. [1:00:15] Of course they have been, Piers. [1:00:17] But wait a minute. [1:00:19] He then, Trump then calls you guys NATO cowards. [1:00:24] Wait a minute. [1:00:26] NATO is set up to protect. [1:00:28] That means that if a NATO country is attacked, they will all join together to repel it. [1:00:35] It doesn't go in reverse. [1:00:37] It doesn't mean if one of the NATO countries starts a war that all the others have to join in. [1:00:44] That ain't part of the deal. [1:00:46] The deal is protection, not aggression. [1:00:48] And we started this war, and then he's calling you guys a bunch of cowards because you won't come in and help him. [1:00:57] Well, why didn't he talk to you beforehand? [1:00:59] And second of all, that isn't what the mission is. [1:01:02] The mission is to protect the countries if they're attacked, not to go on the offense and do the attacking. [1:01:10] Okay, but do you think America was justified in joining Israel in the attack on Iran? [1:01:16] No. [1:01:17] No. [1:01:18] Why not? [1:01:19] Absolutely not. [1:01:20] Because we started the war. [1:01:23] I'm not for starting any war. [1:01:27] We fired the first shot, plain and simple. [1:01:31] You want to put it in Rambo terms? [1:01:34] We drew first blood. [1:01:37] Many would argue, of those who support the war, that Iran had drawn a lot of blood to this regime for a very long time. [1:01:46] They had supported and brought down. [1:01:48] Well, hang on, hang on, Jesse. [1:01:49] They had armed groups like Hamas and the Houthis and Hezbollah for decades. [1:01:55] They had wreaked utter havoc, drawing enormous amounts of blood. [1:01:59] And actually, the reason America and Israel had to deal with them now was that they were imminently going to get a nuclear weapon and may well use it. [1:02:08] What do you say to that? [1:02:09] Well, here's what I say. [1:02:12] Let's get the real history in. [1:02:14] You know, I listen to people like Congressman Lawler in New York. [1:02:18] Look, they all love to go back to 1979, the day the Ayatollahs took over. [1:02:24] They conveniently don't go back to when I was alive. [1:02:28] I'm a little older than them. [1:02:29] Let's go back to 1953, shall we? [1:02:32] When Iran had a democratic elected president, the United States didn't like him, we pulled a coup d'etat, and what did we do? [1:02:42] We stuck the authoritarian dictator, the Shah, in power. [1:02:46] That's when the I hate America started, was way back in the 50s when we interfered in their democratic elections. [1:02:56] But how convenient we are that we forget that. [1:02:58] Then in 1979, what took place, the Ayatollahs took over, who were probably worse than the Shah. [1:03:06] But let's remember, the hatred of America was started by America. [1:03:11] It was not started by the Iranians. [1:03:14] We interfered in their government way back in the 50s and overturned their democratic elected president, [1:03:21] and then the dictatorship started with the Shah and now went to the Ayatollahs, and here we are today. [1:03:27] But I'd like for Congressman Lawler to at least try to go back in history from before he was born to see what could have occurred, [1:03:35] and that the United States was the person that caused the hatred between the two countries. [1:03:42] Jesse, I know you're very scathing of Trump now. [1:03:45] There was a time when you were on more friendly terms. [1:03:48] Here's a clip from you both at WrestleMania 20. [1:03:52] You know what? [1:03:55] I think that we may need a wrestler in the White House in 2008! [1:04:03] When you look at that, Jesse, I mean, that was 12, 13 years ago, I think. [1:04:09] Trump has also been made a WWE Hall of Famer, which I know has angered you. [1:04:16] How do you feel now, looking back at that clip? [1:04:18] I feel that simply I was doing my job, I was doing what I was asked to do at the WWE. [1:04:27] Trump being a Hall of Famer is a tragedy. [1:04:31] This guy has never been in the ring. [1:04:33] I got a good friend, Ken Patera, Olympian. [1:04:37] First man to overhead press 500 pounds. [1:04:41] 25 years in the wrestling business. [1:04:44] Kenny Patera is not in the Hall of Fame. [1:04:46] Donald Trump does not belong in the Wrestling Hall of Fame. [1:04:51] He never earned it. [1:04:53] You know what I had to do to get in the Pro Wrestling Hall of Fame? [1:04:56] At one point in my career, I wrestled 63 consecutive nights in a row. [1:05:02] That's how you get in the Hall of Fame. [1:05:04] When I was referring to putting a wrestler in the White House, I was talking about me, not him. [1:05:11] Really? [1:05:11] That was a bit ambiguous. [1:05:14] Absolutely. [1:05:14] I was the former governor of Minnesota. [1:05:18] I'm the only real former wrestler. [1:05:20] I don't include him. [1:05:22] He's only in the Hall of Fame because he stopped an investigation against Vince McMahon. [1:05:28] Sexual stuff. [1:05:31] Do you intend to run again for governor and therefore maybe president? [1:05:35] I don't necessarily intend to run again, but I'm working on something that could send me [1:05:42] straight to Washington and go face to face with this guy. [1:05:47] Really? [1:05:47] Well, you would run for him? [1:05:48] My friends may be in the works. [1:05:50] I mean, he can't run for president again. [1:05:52] So what would that involve? [1:05:55] Well, you'll have to find out. [1:05:57] Wait and see. [1:05:58] I'm not going to spill it here. [1:06:00] You're not going to crash. [1:06:01] But I'll put it to you this way. [1:06:03] Wait, wait, wait. [1:06:04] Piers, I'll put it to you this way. [1:06:06] We withstood the onslaught of the Gestapo in Minnesota. [1:06:12] Well, I was taught in war to do this. [1:06:16] You ensure that your backyard is secure. [1:06:18] That's the first thing you do. [1:06:20] Well, Minnesota is now secure. [1:06:22] We've repelled the onslaught from Trump. [1:06:25] Now it's time for us to go on the offense. [1:06:28] So maybe it's time to send the Navy SEAL to Washington. [1:06:32] Maybe it's time for a showdown between the Vietnam veteran and the draft dodger. [1:06:39] Do you actually mean a physical confrontation? [1:06:42] No. [1:06:45] But if he wants it, he's in the Hall of Fame. [1:06:47] Let's both get in the ring. [1:06:49] I mean, there is a U.S. team. [1:06:50] After all, he's in the Hall of Fame, isn't he? [1:06:54] Right. [1:06:55] I mean, there is a U.S. [1:06:55] Even though he's never, ever had a match. [1:06:57] Right. [1:06:58] Well, there is a U.S.C. whole event going on imminently at the White House. [1:07:04] Maybe they could extend it and have you against Trump. [1:07:09] Do you think he'd have the guts to do that? [1:07:12] Are you kidding me? [1:07:14] Well, when he got shot, Jesse, to be fair to Trump. [1:07:18] Wait a minute, Piers. [1:07:19] To be fair to Trump, when he got shot, when he got shot, he got back up and said fight, fight, fight. [1:07:27] Oh, yeah. [1:07:27] Right, right, right. [1:07:29] You ever hear of a blade job? [1:07:30] A blade? [1:07:33] What, you think he was fake? [1:07:34] Anyway, I don't know. [1:07:38] Where's his scar today? [1:07:39] Somebody died, literally, sitting behind him. [1:07:44] I don't know. [1:07:45] You know, come on, Piers. [1:07:47] You're going to tell me this guy's a big hero now? [1:07:50] I thought that day he was. [1:07:52] That's what you're going to tell me? [1:07:52] That day he was. [1:07:54] Really? [1:07:55] Yeah. [1:07:55] Really? [1:07:56] Yeah, he was. [1:07:57] Yeah, well, then he accomplished what he wanted out of you guys. [1:08:01] No, I think you can be heroic on one day, and you can be less heroic on others. [1:08:06] But if you ask me, was he heroic when he got shot? [1:08:09] Yeah, and I think those who tried to defend him, he wasn't actually shot or anything. [1:08:12] It's ridiculous. [1:08:12] You're right. [1:08:13] You know what I feel bad about was that if he'd have joined us in Vietnam, we might have won, huh? [1:08:21] No. [1:08:21] He could have put us... [1:08:22] Why did he run and hide? [1:08:23] I don't think... [1:08:24] He could have joined us and led us to victory. [1:08:26] I don't think anything would have changed the fortunes of the United States in that war. [1:08:29] Yeah, probably not, considered he called us all suckers, didn't he? [1:08:37] What would you say to Trump if you had a chance to speak to him? [1:08:42] I'd prefer not to speak with him. [1:08:47] I don't have really... [1:08:48] What would I say to him? [1:08:50] I don't know. [1:08:51] You know, he's... [1:08:52] You know, to me, he has no courage. [1:08:57] He never has. [1:08:58] I'll tell you what he is, Pierce. [1:09:01] Everybody knows these people. [1:09:02] You're with a group of guys, and there's always one guy who will start the fight and [1:09:09] then hold your coat. [1:09:11] That's Donald Trump. [1:09:13] He'll start the fight, but he'll hold your coat, and then the next day he'll tell everybody [1:09:17] how tough he was. [1:09:20] Jesse Ventura, it's great to see you've lost none of your fighting spirit in the many years [1:09:25] since I last interviewed you. [1:09:26] Thank you very much for coming on. [1:09:27] Pierce, I'll never lose my fighting spirit. [1:09:31] You take care, man. [1:09:32] And if you dare to have me on again, we'll see. [1:09:35] You will always be welcome. [1:09:37] Always be welcome, Jesse. [1:09:38] Don't you worry about that. [1:09:40] The mere fact of the show is called out of the sentence. [1:09:42] It was made for you. [1:09:44] By the way, say hi, Pierce. [1:09:47] What the hell is going on? [1:09:48] Make some sense of it, please. [1:09:53] Well, it's obvious that the president was in a very difficult situation. [1:09:58] The regime change, which was, I think, the initial objective, was not working, and intelligence [1:10:08] indicated that the regime is even more entrenched. [1:10:11] I think the president wanted to declare victory and bring the war to an end. [1:10:16] We certainly have achieved a lot of our military objectives there. [1:10:20] But the problem was that with the Straits of Hormuz closed, frankly, Iran had a great deal of leverage. [1:10:28] And there wasn't much chance of getting a ceasefire without the straits being opened. [1:10:33] So the president faced a choice. [1:10:35] Do you open the Straits of Hormuz militarily? [1:10:38] Do you try to negotiate? [1:10:40] Do you try to get our allies to be able to open it? [1:10:43] He was struggling to try to find an answer. [1:10:46] And evidently, there began to be some negotiations here. [1:10:51] And now he's held up on strikes. [1:10:54] And the hope is that they can find a way to open up the Straits of Hormuz. [1:10:59] The Iranians are probably the best people that could do that because they know where the mines are [1:11:04] and they know how to clear the Straits in a much more rapid way than anybody else. [1:11:10] When you were running the CIA, you must have, I guess, looked at the potential to affect regime change in Iran [1:11:19] or do something about Iran, given the way its tentacles were spreading through the Middle East and in nefarious ways. [1:11:27] But nothing got done. [1:11:29] And we've now heard that, you know, the Israelis had gone to President Obama and to President Biden [1:11:34] and said, we're going to attack Iran. [1:11:36] Are you with us? [1:11:37] The answer came back, no. [1:11:38] And both times they then didn't do it. [1:11:40] Do you think that Trump, in the end, succumbed to pressure from Israel to get involved here? [1:11:51] Well, you know, I think President Trump was concerned about Iran, concerned about the threat from Iran. [1:11:59] And I do believe that when Israel came to the president with the idea that they had intelligence on where the supreme leader was located [1:12:10] and that they could ultimately destroy their key leadership. [1:12:15] And that would ultimately allow the protesters to take to the streets and would bring down the regime. [1:12:22] I think that was, frankly, something that Israel and then I think President Trump probably thought could happen. [1:12:30] I think it was a little naive because the intelligence indicated that that the regime was much more entrenched than that. [1:12:41] But nevertheless, they thought that could produce a very quick result and that the war could end quickly. [1:12:47] I think that was a miscalculation on the part of both Israel and the United States. [1:12:53] But any calculation about attacking Iran in a way that the United States and Israel ended up doing, [1:13:00] it must have automatically factored in something going on with the Straits of Hormuz because that would be the most obvious, [1:13:07] it seems to me, way that Iran might retaliate would be economically because they can't compete that effectively militarily. [1:13:15] And I would have thought it would be reasonably obvious that they may also attack some of their Gulf state neighbors in the way that they have done, [1:13:25] oil refineries and so on, if their own refineries came under attack. [1:13:29] None of this seems to me to be exactly rocket science. [1:13:33] And yet the administrations of both countries appear to have been taken a bit by surprise, or have they? [1:13:40] No, I think one of the concerns is that there wasn't a lot of time kind of considering the consequences of what could happen when you attack Iran. [1:13:57] I mean, we had looked at the potential of some kind of conflict with Iran, [1:14:02] and it was very clear to all of us that one of the first things that Iran would do is close the Straits of Hormuz. [1:14:11] It's an obvious result. [1:14:12] It's easy to close, and it can impact on oil prices and creates a tremendous amount of pressure on whoever's attacking Iran. [1:14:23] So what concerns me is I think they really didn't focus on that as a very real consequence. [1:14:32] They seemed ill-prepared to deal with it rather than having a plan of how you would maintain the Straits to be open. [1:14:41] And as a result of that, I think Iran developed even more leverage in terms of trying to make the United States understand that the regime was very much in charge of the Straits of Hormuz, [1:14:57] and that as long as that was happening, prices of oil would increase dramatically. [1:15:03] It would impact on prices not only here in this country, but throughout the world, [1:15:07] and that at some point it could have a major impact on the economies of the world. [1:15:16] And I think the president understood ultimately that the only alternative he had was to find a way to get the Straits open. [1:15:26] Now they're hopefully in discussions, and if they can open the Straits, I think there is a chance that perhaps this war could be brought to an end. [1:15:37] I mean, Iran still possesses the same enriched uranium it had before this war started. [1:15:43] It's clear that Netanyahu has said so publicly that air power alone cannot win this war in the way that they originally intended, [1:15:52] which would include getting their hands on the enriched uranium. [1:15:56] Is there any other way to get that enriched uranium, assuming the Iranians don't just hand it over as part of a deal, [1:16:02] which I think is extremely unlikely, is there any way to get it other than to use ground troops? [1:16:09] And how big a risk would that be for Donald Trump to commit U.S. ground forces? [1:16:18] Well, there's no question that that would be a very tough military operation. [1:16:24] This stuff is buried deep in the ground. [1:16:28] Nobody has any easy access to it. [1:16:31] They would have to be able to repel down and probably face a tremendous amount of opposition there, [1:16:39] since it's such a clear objective for the United States. [1:16:43] So in the end, the best way to deal with that issue is to get energy authorities to again go back into Iran [1:16:56] to be able to inspect and be able to make sure that that enriched fuel does not wind up in a nuclear weapon. [1:17:08] That's probably the best way to ultimately deal with the nuclear threat. [1:17:13] I just want to end Leo Panetta by talking about Robert Mueller for a moment, [1:17:18] because you ran the CIA when he ran the FBI. [1:17:21] You became, I think, pretty close as a double act, working often for the same purpose. [1:17:30] When he died, President Trump posted on his true social platform, [1:17:34] Robert Mueller just died good. [1:17:36] I'm glad he's dead. [1:17:37] He can no longer hurt innocent people. [1:17:40] Now, this is somebody who, aside from his work at the FBI, was a Vietnam veteran. [1:17:45] He saved the life of a wounded colleague under enemy fire. [1:17:50] The following year, he was shot through the thigh. [1:17:52] He received a bronze star, a purple heart, and two Navy commendation medals. [1:17:59] For the President of the United States to describe somebody with that record serving his country as good, [1:18:06] I'm glad he's dead. [1:18:07] What did you think about that? [1:18:08] I thought it was disgraceful what the President said. [1:18:15] I know Bob Mueller. [1:18:17] I knew him very well. [1:18:18] We worked together when I was CIA director, and he was FBI director, and we worked closely together. [1:18:25] Bob Mueller was a patriot by every definition of the word. [1:18:30] He was committed not only to serving this country as a Marine and serving bravely, [1:18:37] but serving this country as FBI director. [1:18:39] He was well-respected by everyone who dealt with him. [1:18:44] He was somebody totally committed to our system of justice. [1:18:49] He was respected by people in the FBI and in the judicial system. [1:18:55] Bob Mueller is going to go down in history as a real stalwart in protection of the laws of our country. [1:19:03] That's not going to happen with this President, who basically avoids the rule of law every time he gets a chance. [1:19:12] You know, I've always had a problem with the way Donald Trump talks about people when they die. [1:19:18] You know, I just think the basic good manners just dictates, especially from the office of the President. [1:19:25] I remember when Colin Powell died, when John McCain died, recently with Rob Reiner died, [1:19:31] that sometimes he just blurts out what he may be thinking, when the best thing may be to just say nothing at all. [1:19:40] Do you feel that? [1:19:42] I work with a lot of presidents in the time that I've been around Washington. [1:19:50] And every president I knew, whether I agreed or disagreed with their politics, [1:19:56] had a basic human decency and a respect for other individuals, [1:20:06] and just had good manners, good manners to respect other people, whether they agreed or disagreed with them. [1:20:16] This is the first president who has none of those values, basically says whatever he thinks. [1:20:23] And basically, as a result of that, I think people understand that this is not somebody [1:20:33] who really respects the decency of other human beings. [1:20:38] And that's just the way he is. [1:20:42] It's unfortunate because, frankly, presidents, every president I knew, [1:20:50] knew that basic decency was a critical element of that individual's character. [1:20:58] And that's missing from this president. [1:21:01] Yeah. [1:21:01] And, you know, the problem is I see a lot of people who were sort of defending it on social media from the MAGA crowd. [1:21:08] And my response to them would be, I remember how furious you all rightly were [1:21:14] when people gloated when Charlie Kirk was murdered, for example. [1:21:20] And I agreed. [1:21:20] It was disgusting, some of the things I was seeing from the more woke liberal left in response to Charlie Kirk's murder. [1:21:28] But you can't be enraged by that and then laugh when the president of the United States says this about Robert Mueller. [1:21:37] I'm afraid that it's just rank hypocrisy. [1:21:40] And either way, the bottom line is, like you say, when people die, just basic dignity and grace should kick in, I believe. [1:21:48] Thank you very much indeed for joining me. [1:21:50] I appreciate it. [1:21:51] Good to be here.