Minnesota Attorney General Debate: Keith Ellison vs. Ron Schutz — Full Debate

[0:02] good afternoon this is npr news i'm brian bax we have a special politics friday today [0:41] and just over a month minnesota voters will decide who should lead the state's main public law office [0:47] the attorney general carries significant power to drive litigation defend state interest aid and [0:52] criminal prosecution and work with legislators to shape new laws the attorney general sits on [0:57] a state board that manages tens of billions of dollars in investment holdings for pensions and [1:01] similar accounts the attorney general is one of three people who weigh pardon applications [1:06] and the attorney general has a say in the durability of executive orders issued by the governor [1:10] with us for the next hour are two people seeking that title for the next four years keith ellison [1:16] is a dflr who's held the attorney general role for the two terms beginning in 2019 good afternoon [1:21] thank you brian thanks for having me and ron shoots is a civil litigator who has most recently led a [1:26] major twin cities law firm happy to have you here as well thank you brian thanks for having me so [1:31] there aren't a lot of ground rules to go over gentlemen there are no timed responses but we're [1:35] asking you to be as succinct as possible in your answers so we can get to as many topics as possible [1:39] we'll allow for rebuttal we're warranted but please do your best to avoid talking over one another and [1:44] for the radio audience you can find a live video feed of this debate at mprnews.org or come back [1:49] later if you missed something we all set i'm all set so keith ellison when you were inaugurated for [1:55] the first time you vowed to be the people's lawyer whose job is quote to help minnesotans afford their [1:59] lives with dignity and respect how have you measured up i think we have succeeded i can tell you brian [2:05] when you mentioned take me back eight years i think of nicole holt smith who was a woman who approached me [2:11] when i was a member of congress and told me about her son who went from her insurance to his own [2:18] he went from paying nothing for insulin to paying uh about 1300 a month he tried to [2:25] ration his insulin but was unable to do that his body went into ketoacidosis and he died [2:30] when i became attorney general the one of the first cases that i filed was against the insulin cartel [2:36] and now in minnesota insulin is kept at 35 this has been the operating principle of my principle of my [2:44] service helping people afford their lives and learn and live with dignity safety and respect minnesota [2:50] statute 8.31 requires it says shall the attorney general shall investigate all illegality unfairness [2:57] and discrimination in the area of business commerce and trade and i have lived up to that as early as [3:03] this morning and ron shoots this is your first one for a public elected office prior to launching [3:08] your campaign you were on a finalist to be minnesota's u.s attorney but why this job and why now [3:15] well brian i you correct i was on the finalist list to be united states attorney and when that didn't [3:21] happen when dan rosen was selected as u.s attorney my phone started ringing off the hook because i had [3:28] previously considered running for public office been urged to run for public office several times in the [3:34] past and for various reasons timing commitments with my law firm and others i decided not to do [3:40] that but i stepped down from being chairman of my law firm in 2024 and i was looking for what i was [3:48] going to do next in life i've started my career in public service by being an officer in the united states [3:54] army and i don't like the direction the state is headed and i'm sure i'll get to address several of those [4:01] issues during the course of this debate i've got three grandchildren that live in this state and i [4:07] prefer that they grow up in a state that looks a lot more like the one i grew up in and was known as [4:12] the land of ten thousand lakes and not the state as it's currently known as the land of ten thousand [4:18] frauds well without question uh investigations and prosecuted occasions of fraud have stoked public [4:23] frustration over misuse of tax dollars ron shoots what do you see as the role of the attorney general [4:28] in combating that fraud well the role of the attorney general is very broad in combating that fraud the [4:34] attorney general is tasked under minnesota statutes with original criminal jurisdiction over medicaid [4:41] and medical assistance fraud and in my view i don't think this attorney general has done a good job [4:47] prosecuting those cases claims to have prosecuted 350 cases kstp uh local news station in town did an [4:55] investigative report they looked at 250 cases that keith ellison had prosecuted and found the overwhelming [5:04] in the overwhelming majority of those cases nobody went to jail nobody had a felony on their record and [5:12] if anything they paid cents on the dollars and that is because the way the cases were prosecuted [5:19] in 70 of those cases they found that there were stays of adjudication where the person was put on [5:27] parole came out of parole and then the charges were dropped so no convictions at least 70 of those cases [5:33] well keith ellison he's assessed your uh your role as as not having done as much as you've said what do [5:39] you want to say about that i say he's absolutely wrong i'm very proud of the 350 convictions that my office [5:46] has secured i'm proud of the group that does that work every single day uh mr shoots doesn't seem to [5:52] understand that it is courts who sentence defendants not the prosecutors we bring the charges we get the [5:59] convictions the courts sentence people and so he's confusing those two roles uh but here's the thing [6:06] i also worked with the legislature to negotiate a bill that lengthens sentences he's concerned about [6:14] sentences we've actually got a bill that lengthened sentences brought back longer period of time to get [6:21] restitution orders and was able to secure 18 more new people from my office with a three to one to [6:29] three match from the federal government to us we put up one buck they put up three now those we have now [6:35] now we've passed that law into into law but mr shoots opposed this piece of legislation he wrote a press [6:42] release trying to get people to kill the bill so it seems to me that he might be against ellison but [6:48] he's not against fraud because if he was against fraud he would not care who was pushing that bill [6:53] he would have stood uh with me and helped to get more strength for did you oppose the bill that keith [6:58] else was talking about well first we need to clarify one thing under minnesota statute 609.095 [7:04] the prosecution can agree with the defense to have the judge enter a stay of adjudication that was done in at [7:11] least 70 of those cases so i'm absolutely right about that you can check the record and what happens [7:18] is no conviction is entered on the record and in 144 cases there was a stay of imposition of sentence what [7:26] that means is there's a plea offered the judge accepts the plea puts the person on probation if the [7:32] person successfully completes probation then the felony to which they have pled is reduced to a misdemeanor but [7:41] briefly did you did you oppose the court legislation what well that's incomplete with what i said my [7:46] statement was this attorney general has substantial resources in the office not being deployed toward [7:53] combating fraud and he needs his priorities are wrong he needs to reprioritize combating fraud keith [8:00] ellison particularly when it comes to them didn't answer the question about whether you oppose the bill or [8:03] not particularly when it comes to the most visible case feeding our future right when did your office [8:08] first step in and how well we represented this the department of education and when in these feeding [8:16] our future was asking uh was was demanding more money than they were entitled to the department of [8:22] education said no we weren't gonna give they weren't gonna give that money over because there was no proof [8:27] for it we didn't know how deep the problem was but we knew that there was a problem because the billings [8:32] and the invoices didn't match i defended the department of education even when feeding our [8:37] future sued them and scurrilously claimed to be victims of discrimination we fought that right up [8:43] and right up until feeding our future these people lied to judges they lied to journalists and they tried [8:49] to lie their way in through court then then what we did is we began to work with the fbi and uh later there [8:57] were uh search warrants executed there was then indictments and now those people are in prison as [9:02] they should be my office worked very hard to make sure that justice was done when we couldn't get it [9:08] through the court system we thought we should get it through we worked with our federal allies and got [9:13] them convicted there staying with you for a minute you've been questioned before congress and other [9:16] venues for meeting with and taking campaign contributions for people who are later accused in that nutrition [9:22] aid scheme what happened there i'm glad you asked me about that brian because here's the thing nobody who [9:27] i see i meet with people every single day i had several meetings this week uh and so i met these [9:33] people wanted to meet with me and i met with them because i meet with people but i took nothing from them [9:39] i did nothing for them and no one in that meeting gave me a campaign donation in fact one of them [9:44] suggested campaign donations i said no this is an official meeting that's on the tape you're talking about [9:50] but then what happened is that uh though when when those people sent me some campaign donations no [9:55] one in the meeting others i sent them back brian to the federal authorities so i have received no [10:02] campaign donations from these people and we aided in the prosecution and conviction of these people [10:08] i'm glad they're in prison and i'm proud of the work that my team did to do that ron shoots going [10:13] forward the attorney general's office will have a more robust medicaid fraud control unit with additional [10:18] staff expanded powers for to investigate how do you foresee using that well i want to go back to [10:24] how these cases are handled people need to go to jail nobody's afraid out there there are no [10:29] repercussions and here's how people go to jail you prosecute people by charging them with three at [10:36] least three felony counts of fraud over thirty five thousand dollars and then you refuse to enter into [10:41] sweetheart plea agreements because if you then try these cases and you got to remember i'm i approach this [10:48] job and will approach this job as a trial lawyer and not as a politician so i view the way to do [10:54] these cases is to actually go to court stand up before juries and judges get prosecutions if you [11:00] get a conviction on three felony counts for theft above a thousand thirty five thousand dollars which is [11:06] relatively easy to do given the scope of the fraud here uh there's mandatory prison sentence under the [11:12] state sentencing guidelines if you look at the grid what about the medicaid fraud control unit do you [11:17] are you do you think that the amount of staff 18 new staff members is enough no i would devote [11:23] additional resources that and i'm glad you asked that question brian because the attorney general has [11:28] broad discretion as to how he allocates resources within the office each year the attorney general [11:33] files a report with the legislature about the activities in the office the most recent report that [11:38] was filed was 51 pages long 51 pages only two pages of that report were devoted to fraud i will devote [11:47] additional resources to fighting fighting fraud i have the discretion within the office as to where to [11:52] devote resources i'll devote more more resources to fighting fraud keith ellison more than the well i tell [11:58] you um there are about 50 medicaid control fraud units throughout the united states they are evaluated from [12:05] washington because washington gives about three bucks for every one dollar that the state puts up [12:10] and they have evaluated us as having an excellent program they have said look you are punching way [12:16] above your weight your people are getting convictions and they support and have given us positive feedback on [12:23] our program and so i don't know what ron is talking about we do this work every day and i can tell you the [12:29] people who do this work have no connection to politics at all all they are line prosecutors they [12:35] do prosecution every day they're investigators and i'm proud of the work that they do and quite frankly [12:41] mr shoots i find it offensive for you to insult these people they are career prosecutors and the bureau of [12:48] criminal apprehension we just brought a bunch of conviction brought a bunch of cases this week these [12:53] people work hard to build these cases we're getting these convictions and mr shoots why did you [12:59] oppose my bill why did you put a partisan consideration in front of while trying to get more resources to [13:06] prosecute fraud nobody goes to jail let me repeat that you can people go and listen go to listen that's [13:13] not true look at the kstp report uh ellison's on camera being confronted by the reporters nobody goes [13:20] to report goes to jail and nobody ends up with a felony on your record so the report that's submitted to [13:27] the federal government about what the medicaid fraud control unit does measure certain factors [13:31] it does not measure whether people go to jail because if it measured that it would get an f grade [13:37] we're going to move along here financial scams targeting people online or involving confusing [13:41] business tactics are a growing concern what steps should this office take to help people recover money [13:46] and what should be done with those bad actors ron shoots again i will repeat that i will approach all these [13:52] as i did in my private law practice as an aggressive trial lawyer there's only one lawyer in this race [14:00] who has stood before juries given opening statements examined and cross-examined every witness and get [14:06] and got given the closing argument and won tens of millions of dollars for his clients and that's me [14:12] and i have frequently done that on behalf of individuals and small companies i will take that track record [14:18] that aggressiveness and i will use it to make sure that nobody and i mean nobody takes advantage of [14:24] minnesotans so uh brian uh look i every go to hennepin county go to federal district court people know [14:32] keith ellison is a trialer who's put plenty of juries but that's not the point i'm not going to get into [14:37] that what i will get into is the role of the office on in financial crimes is very serious and i do want [14:44] to ask you a precise question about that are minnesota's laws strong enough to respond to [14:47] consumer scams or where do they need to be beefed up that's a great question thank you for asking [14:52] that i can tell you that when it comes to things like privacy we need to continue to strengthen [14:57] our laws in minnesota i think when people's people's data we had we passed some good legislation we need [15:03] more we may need to pass some legislation to protect people's private identity there's a [15:08] nudity anti-nutification law that we're defending right now in court i think that there's some ways [15:13] to make that law stronger also one of the things we did we actually passed this law something that [15:18] ron opposed is we have actually on medicaid fraud gone back further so that we can get further deeper [15:25] in time beyond the statute the ordinary statute of limitations so that we can get even more [15:30] restitution but we have increased our we have increased our medical debt bill we passed a medical [15:35] debt bill that improves our ability to protect minnesota consumers medical billing we've done that [15:41] and of course uh these are laws that we're pursuing every single day ron shoots are there any new laws [15:46] that you would want to on particularly on consumer protection we have very robust consumer protection [15:53] laws on the books right now they're very robust certainly we might be able to beef some of those up [15:59] but it's like everything else execution is the key it's not necessarily that we need more laws we need [16:05] them more vigorously enforced well let me ask you what factors would you consider before pursuing legal action on [16:10] behalf of the state maybe against a corporation or business if they committed wrongdoing i mean if [16:17] they committed wrongdoing and minnesotans were harmed the attorney general should take action against [16:22] that is that the standard you use well obviously but that's just the basics you know i mean the the fact [16:27] is if we we we have sued multiple companies like amazon eli lily exxon mobile philip morris and meta and [16:37] ron has substantial financial holdings in all those cases i don't begrudge him that that's his right but [16:42] you can't do that if you're the attorney general of the state of minnesota if this attorney general [16:47] state of minnesota you should be able to sue these companies unencumbered i don't have any of these kind [16:52] of conflicts and that's why i've been able to sue eli lily for gouging consumers making uh insulin beyond [16:59] their reach so i'm suing exxon mobil on climate deception i'm suing amazon i'm suing meta we just and [17:06] and ron is profiting from all of these companies and i think that's a real serious problem one of the [17:12] things i hope does not happen is that an attorney general factor in their own financial uh exposure [17:18] when they make a decision about suing a company well i know i don't have to do that i want to give [17:22] him a chance to respond to this this relates to your economic disclosure and what stock holdings you [17:27] have are they going to be a problem and or how are you going to wall that off so i'm glad you asked [17:31] that but i'd like to point out first that uh i actually have a 12 million dollar verdict against apple [17:36] again i'm somebody who's actually tried big cases against these tech companies and one i've sued [17:42] amazon i've sued microsoft i've sued all these big companies even while i held their stock but let's [17:47] just step back a second and directly address the issue of my stock holdings my stock portfolio is [17:54] managed professionally by rbc wealth management i don't pick the stocks i don't decide what stock [18:01] should be sold or what stocks shouldn't be sold notwithstanding that our plan if i'm elected is to [18:08] put those stock holdings in a separate entity that i will not have any visibility into in terms of what [18:16] it's holding are or what its stock trading is rbc does this repeatedly for elected officials around the [18:24] united states there's nothing particularly mysterious about this it will not be visible to me i won't know [18:30] what's going on in that and further to the extent that there are any current companies that are in [18:37] litigation against the state and if i own stock in those companies if i'm elected i will divest myself [18:44] from those companies to make sure there is no appearance of conflict and no actual conflicts [18:51] i will take care of that you're shaking your head well look i don't have to divest anything what i i [18:56] depend upon uh you know the the pension and the retirement savings uh that that are that are that [19:03] i've been able to acquire because i've been serving the public interest for my whole career the fact is [19:09] the public should not have to wonder is mr shoots not suing because he owns that stock or he's involved [19:17] with that company when he when he sued apple he made a lot of money on that which he's now using to run [19:22] scurrilous ads against me by the way but 174 separate stock holdings at least ten thousand dollars [19:30] a piece is a lot of money and you begin people have a tendency to align their decisions in politics [19:36] with their financial interests everyone knows that that's why we have a a document for the disclosure [19:43] and that's what the public should know can you do you the public should never have to wonder [19:48] whether he's pursuing the public interest or his own before we move on to anything else you want to [19:52] say about your plan yeah apparently and i was surprised to learn this that i'm the only person [19:57] seeking public office who owns any stock i mean it's a joke of course because public public servants [20:03] public officials throughout the united states have stock portfolios and they take care of them when they [20:07] enter public office just as i have said i will take care of i will divest from any stocks that i [20:13] currently own from companies that are in litigation with the state i will put the rest of it in a [20:19] in a vehicle that i won't have any insight into so i won't know what's in there i will have divested [20:25] from what it's done there's i don't know what else i can do brian other than what many many public [20:31] officials have done before me let's turn to immigration another topic that's been pretty dominant [20:37] in minnesota this year specifically that agent surge that led to detentions and deportations [20:41] keith ellison with some distance in time is there anything you would have done differently [20:46] to confront the situation as it unfolded look brian you know the president of united states [20:50] said that he wanted retribution and a reckoning against my state i love my state i'm dedicated to my [20:57] state and i don't let anybody get retribution against the state of minnesota so it's absolutely [21:02] the case that i did a number of things to protect minnesota from operation metro surge [21:07] i sued them we have active litigation going on right now and we are suing them for violating [21:13] our state sovereignty for all of the massive amount of damage that they did to our economy [21:17] we're doing that i'm proud we're doing that i also am assisting local prosecutors [21:22] in the investigation and in one case prosecution of the people who were shot by ice agents and i'm [21:29] talking about alex preddy renee good and uh julia so so solis who was shot but survived i also yeah [21:36] i would use my first amendment rights and stood out on the street in 30 degree cold weather and said what [21:41] ice was doing was wrong to persecute our state uh and of course we did as much legal education as we [21:47] could to the public and i also did another thing that the public may not know yes i sat down with tom [21:53] holman and jd vance and told them both that this surge this targeted surge against minnesota is [22:00] unwarranted is illegal and it needs to stop ron shoots how would you have responded to the agent [22:05] surge at the time well i'll tell you how i in fact did respond two days after the alex preddy shooting [22:13] i issued a press release calling for transparency stating very clearly that for a government to have [22:20] the confidence of its people it needed to be transparent and that there needed to be a joint [22:25] federal and state investigation of both of those shootings that was back in january 10 months ago [22:31] it's not as if i've recently come to this position i was outraged by what happened there called for a [22:38] joint federal and state investigation if you look that probably didn't make me popular in certain circles [22:44] in washington dc but that was the right thing to call for it may be the only thing that that [22:50] keith ellison and i agree on is that there had to be a joint investigation here and wherever the facts [22:55] lead out of that investigation that's where they lead and if it leads to prosecutions and the evidence [23:00] warrants it that's what should happen so you're saying you would continue to pursue possible prosecutions [23:05] in the renee good and alex preddy absolutely you gotta remember i started my career as a prosecutor [23:10] i don't want people coming into minnesota shooting our citizens and if they did so in a manner that was [23:18] unjustified and criminal they absolutely should be prosecuted and if that happens i am more than [23:23] happy to lead the charge because i in fact have done that as a prosecutor and did you agree with [23:28] the attorney general uh suing texas over the ice agent uh kristin castro's extradition where's that [23:36] ice agent right now did you agree with his action no no where's the ice agent right now he's in jail [23:41] yes did you but did you agree with his lawsuit against another state over extradition well i commented on [23:45] on this at the time the lawsuit if you remember was dismissed for lack of standing because the [23:50] procedure that's not true that's inaccurate i read the opinion no you're wrong it was they said the [23:55] state didn't have anything finishing up correct didn't have standing in the case but and but the [24:00] the short answer to that question is if someone commits a crime in our state if they flee to another [24:07] state and there is legitimate extradition order and it's not being acknowledged and whether it's texas or [24:14] whether it's new york or wherever the case might be it is the role of the attorney general at that [24:19] point if all the rem if the timing is right to in fact go in and say you need to bring that person [24:28] back and seek an order keith elson what's the line between calling for accountability and coming off as [24:32] pre-judging an ongoing investigation in situations like this well look i've been a prosecutor for years [24:38] and i can tell you that uh when uh when you when the whole world sees videotape of a man being shot on [24:46] the street 10 times it makes sense for the local authorities to take the action that that i took [24:53] and let me just say the case was not bounced for lack of standing it was found to be not ripe that was [25:00] the legal position the case went on we voluntarily dismissed when he got to minnesota i'm sorry you're [25:05] right it was it was a ripeness issue and so and so he was in he was in jail for 90 days and on the 98th [25:11] day the local texas judge said oh it's not ripe yet so that's what happened but let me get back to your [25:17] question mike mike the the answer is that when the whole world sees a minnesotan shot down 10 times yes [25:25] we're going to investigate yes we're going to follow the information that's why i filed a lawsuit [25:29] that very night to make sure that the federal agents did not uh somehow spoil the scene of the [25:36] crime that's what we did that's the action that i took that was the leadership that i would expect [25:41] out of an ag and quite if i may say so ron is a movement republican he was the chair of the center [25:47] for american experiment that's his first amendment right i have no problem with him doing that but i [25:51] would think that a that a movement republican at a time when our state's being persecuted by a republican [25:57] administration he would stand up and be a little bit more vocal than just send out a presser ron [26:02] shoots on immigration enforcement broadly as the attorney general mentioned the department of justice [26:06] is appealing to revive a lawsuit that seeks to compel state and local participation in immigration [26:12] enforcement in minnesota including data sharing and jail holds known as detainers would your office if [26:18] you lead it shift course in that case can you say that again i'm not quite sure i got the lawsuit [26:24] regarding whether states deemed sanctuary states have to participate with in federal immigration [26:29] enforcement is before the federal court of appeals right well the the state of minnesota is not a [26:35] sanctuary state there's no sanctuary state law in the state hennepin county and ramsey county [26:42] are what's called i think non-co i think the technical term might be non-cooperation or they [26:46] have non-cooperation ordinances the state is a name the state is not a sanctuary the state is a name [26:51] defendant in this case are you saying that you would well i you correct me if i'm wrong but i [26:55] think there was an attempt to pass a specific sanctuary state law that failed in the state [27:01] legislature perhaps attorney general allison has some more information about i do but i do not believe [27:06] there's a specific sanctuary state statue on the books here's what the law state law requires if the [27:12] if there is a a warrant for somebody who happens to be a non-citizen the if you are the department of [27:20] corrections will make that person available when they complete their minnesota time at that point [27:27] the immigration authorities have to come to the state and to pick that person up if you hold them [27:32] for longer than the law requires now you're violating their fourth amendment rights so the immigration [27:37] authorities have a responsibility to get there on time with the massive amount of bill money they've been [27:42] given by the congress that i don't see why they shouldn't be able to do that uh and so the the the state [27:49] does have the right to say look we are going to do what our state law says you do what your federal [27:54] immigration law says it's not our responsibility to hold people for you beyond the amount of time [28:00] that is legal to hold them and so that is what the state of the law is and we're not holding people [28:06] for ice if we don't have a legal basis to hold them on our own and that's exactly what we should do [28:11] you're listening to an npr news politics friday debate in the minnesota's attorney general race [28:15] candidates keith ellison and ron shoots are with us for the full hour keith ellison uh you're part [28:20] of more than 75 lawsuits i think that number went up today against the trump administration [28:24] which one or two do you consider to be the most consequential you know brian that's a good question [28:30] because i cannot narrow it down to one or two i mean look uh the the clearly we're suing the trump [28:36] administration over operation metro surge that is a very important lawsuit to me and we're throwing [28:42] everything we got into it we will defend minnesota period full stop but what about the fact that when [28:50] a year ago just about a year ago now uh the uh there was the longest shutdown in american history in the [28:56] congress and donald trump came forth and said well we're going to withhold your uh supplemental nutrition [29:03] assistance money also known as food stamps what did i do i sued him over that because 440 000 minnesotans [29:11] rely on food stamps seniors rely on it children rely on it and people with disabilities and others who [29:17] are just having a hard time and so yeah that's important to me too so you're asking me like pick [29:23] between my children all of them are important every single time i sued trump he had it come in and i'm [29:28] proud of all ron shoots what are a couple of that you have the most uh trouble with well let's just step [29:33] back and talk about these law suits in the bigger picture context let's be clear that what really is going [29:40] on here is that the bus on these lawsuits is being driven by the california attorney general leading [29:48] a coalition of states with rare exception it's a coalition of states and these cases are filed [29:54] usually in places like rhode island massachusetts maryland other places they're not filed in minnesota [30:00] where you brian could go down to the courthouse with possibly the exception of the ice case that [30:05] keith has talked about but the overwhelming majority of these cases are filed somewhere [30:11] other than minnesota minnesota is not the lead plaintiff and there's no transparency in the sense [30:16] that a minnesota judge or a minnesota jury hears the case a minnesota citizen can't go down to the [30:22] courthouse and watch what's going on i something like 95 plus percent of those cases are not filed in [30:30] minnesota are there some of the lawsuits that you have problem with particularly there i'm one guy [30:35] running for attorney general he's got an office of 200 lawyers and and apparently 28 working on these [30:42] cases if i believe the press reports i've read i i haven't had a chance to look at all these cases brian [30:47] i just simply don't have the resources to dig into those cases can i just respond just briefly look this [30:52] whole thing about venue is a red herring mr shoots as in his practice as a trial lawyer would clearly file [31:00] the case in the best place for his client to to to be successful we have these are multi-state [31:07] litigation cases and you know we we work together we lead a lot of these cases but we decide on where [31:13] to file them based on who's in the coalition and based on what we think will give us the best outcome [31:18] i am sure that minnesotans would rather have me win the case than than care about where it's venued or [31:24] not and you can get all these materials online so this is just a red herring mr shoots is trying to [31:30] distract the reality of the situation we've been winning these cases and yes we've been filing these [31:35] cases and i'm proud of all of them including the tariff case because men because donald j trump [31:41] destroyed the export markets of minnesota farmers so we sued him and we beat him and but then trump [31:47] filed more so we still want him again so that statement was very telling brian because he said [31:52] we file him where we think we can win them meaning that he doesn't think and the coalition doesn't [31:58] think those cases could be won in minnesota if they're heard by a minnesota judge and a minnesota [32:02] jury and being transparent to minnesota citizens i think that's quite telling let me ask about a [32:07] not true that let me ask about a couple of these you know he mentioned the snap program the holdbacks [32:13] and also the medicaid program funding freeze that the trump administration placed are you okay with [32:18] those trump administration actions am i okay with some trump administration actions to freeze medicaid [32:25] funding and potentially snap funding for well if they well first of all the snap program in minnesota [32:30] and this is really beyond dispute has been riddled with fraud and so the the pause in that funding was [32:37] a direct request to the state of minnesota to clean up those roles all right so let's just be clear about [32:42] that but if in fact the federal i have no problem suing the federal government let's just be clear about [32:48] that again i will bring my trial lawyer expertise and aggressiveness to protecting minnesotans and [32:54] whether it's the trump administration or any administration that comes after if they are truly [32:59] truly hurting minnesotans we'll sue the trump administration and we'll sue them in minnesota [33:05] we won't be engaging in political theater keith ellison as ron shoots mentioned those are federally [33:10] funded programs for the most part right why isn't the trump administration on firm footing to [33:14] withhold money due to fraud concerns well look uh there are rules all about this first of all let [33:20] me just say this any amount of fraud is too much people who steal from government programs offend me [33:26] deeply that's why we prosecute these people but let me say that donald trump he's you they're using a [33:34] serious issue of fraud to opportunistically move a political agenda that's what's going on [33:40] they operation metro surge supposed to be based on fraud somehow he surges armed mass men to our state [33:47] based on fraud withholding food from hungry people they claim oh it's because of fraud they are using [33:53] a real a real serious issue to push a political agenda and look donald trump has said he he has told us [34:02] why he uh has come after minnesota he said reckoning and retribution we've defended these programs because [34:09] there is a legal procedure if there's going to be a withholding this government violated it [34:14] and that's why we defeated them brian that's why we beat them in court on these matters as we've [34:18] heard today you're both lawyers with lengthy careers what's an example of a case where you [34:23] represented a client or an interest that didn't align with your personal principles ron shoots [34:33] that's a good question brian i'm not sure i think that i had the luxury of turning down cases that [34:42] didn't align with my personal principles i wanted i've been recognized one of the top lawyers in [34:49] the country and so i have i'm presented with cases all the time and i have in the course of my career [34:55] chosen not to represent certain interests in certain people because i didn't have to i had the luxury of [35:01] picking and choosing my cases and i think i was always on the right side and and wearing the white hat [35:06] in my cases keith ellison i can certainly answer that brian well so let me tell you i'm 100 with [35:11] planned parenthood i believe very strongly a woman's right to choose and uh when i was a state [35:17] legislator when governor Pawlenty was in office there were some laws passed that interfered with [35:22] that right it didn't outright block it but it got in the way of it and it made it much harder more [35:28] difficult when i was a when the attorney general a group of folks from a non-profit sued to strike some [35:35] of those laws down now here i am a person who doesn't agree with those laws but it is the job [35:42] of the attorney general to defend laws that are constitutional and i think they're bad laws but [35:47] they're not unconstitutional so my office did defend those laws and when the court issued an opinion [35:55] striking down those laws i made a decision not to appeal because i thought people needed certainty [36:01] and i thought the court trial court made the right decision but it is the job of the attorney general [36:07] to defend laws sometimes you don't agree with if those laws are constitutional even if unwise ron [36:13] shoes do you view abortion access in minnesota as settled law do i view abortion access as what [36:19] settled law in minnesota i i do there's a there's a state statute that governs the right to abortion and [36:27] there is a supreme court case called dovi gomez do you view it a settled law absolutely no question [36:35] but there are real challenges that we're facing for example just yesterday or maybe the day before [36:42] i was advised that attorneys general in louisiana mississippi and texas are going to file an original [36:50] um case in this with the supreme court on the theory that certain other states that have laws [36:58] that say that if a minnesota doctor uh prescribes uh abortion medication uh and and the person somebody [37:06] in some other state gets receives that then they could somehow prosecute that doctor who was who did [37:12] what was legal in minnesota and never left the state of minnesota and and that is something that [37:16] the attorney general is going to have to fight over i will defend minnesota doctors i will stand [37:21] with minnesota patients and i will make sure that if you do what is legal to do in minnesota [37:26] and you never left minnesota that i will fight tooth and nail for your right to continue [37:30] to deliver that reproductive care ron's gonna have to make a decision if he's the ag [37:35] and i wonder what it's going to be because it's not always very simple sometimes you've got to you've [37:40] got to stand on your principle and my principle is that women have a right to make a choice [37:44] over their own body do you care to respond the duty of the attorney general is to defend the state [37:52] if it's involved in a lawsuit and keith mentioned something very important here if it's uh as long [37:59] as the statute's constitutional he was involved in a recent case involving the pseo program the post [38:05] secondary enrollment option program defending a law that in in my view and in the view of many people [38:12] the time it was passed was unconstitutional and violated the first amendment freedom of exercise [38:18] of religion rights the plaintiffs in that case sued the state one and the judge issued an award of [38:25] attorney's fees against the state for three point three attorneys fees and cost for three point three [38:30] million dollars so in that case the attorney general defended what i thought and many others [38:35] and the federal judge agreed was a clearly unconstitutional statute i'm glad ron brought that up can i [38:40] mention another very briefly i want to get back there's an anti-nutification statute that elon musk [38:46] company is challenging in court this is a statute that prohibits companies like grok from using your [38:53] real face and put a nudified body on it that can literally do anything they say it's their first [38:59] amendment right to do that minnesota law says it isn't yes you better believe i'm defending that law [39:05] and and i absolutely would do so uh and i'm proud to do so i want to defend that law also i agree with [39:10] the law i don't think that should be the case uh yeah i would absolutely defend that law i want to go [39:16] back to health i'm already defending that law i want to go back to help you training attorney [39:19] general okay i'm going to jump in here elected i'll take over defending it we'll see there's some big [39:23] health care mergers that are pending and the attorney general's office does have the ability to [39:27] intervene keith ellison are they on balance good for the health consumer in terms of offerings access and [39:33] costs or are these mergers more problematic you got to take them one at a time brian i mean here's the [39:38] thing um minnesota legislature very correctly passed a medical transactions law uh it's for those who might [39:48] want to take a look at it it's at 145 d in minnesota statutes and it requires the attorney general to [39:55] evaluate these transactions or mergers from the standpoint of the public interest now we what do we do [40:03] we engage in a very exhaustive public process we take in public comment we don't just put up a [40:09] website we actually have community meetings we've had them all over one of them that just was finalized [40:15] between sanford and north memorial community and labor unions and the parties involved feel has the [40:23] hallmarks of perhaps being a success there might be others where they object as you know uh health [40:31] partners uh and alcentia just announced that they were exploring something we've got a long way to go [40:36] before that one gets concluded and sutter an out of town outfit wants to align with alina that one is [40:43] still in the process of being worked through we have to take these things well here's what we know brian [40:48] that when these mergers happen around the country oftentimes they mean fewer services and higher costs [40:53] for consumers that i will not allow and so we go through our process to protect unions to protect [41:00] rights to protect people's personal right ron shoots how active should the attorney general's office be in [41:05] dictating these mergers well the attorney general is tasked by statute to take a look at these mergers [41:11] and as keith has said they're highly fact specific and it really depends no two mergers are the same [41:18] the impact of no two mergers are the same and so you really have to dig in you have to have [41:22] economists you have to have experts look at this you have to take public testimony [41:26] and you just need to roll your sleeves up and do a lot of work to see if it's in the public interest [41:29] to agree to the merger or not but it's it's not a question that can be answered in the abstract [41:35] as i mentioned at the outset the attorney general is a member of the board of pardons alongside the [41:38] supreme court chief justice and the governor keith ellison one pardon in particular has come up in this [41:43] campaign it was granted to to vang regarding his 2006 conviction of sexual assault charges involving a [41:48] minor why did you vote for a partner in that case very simply because the victim asked for it uh look [41:56] it's very difficult for a victim of a crime to write out a letter saying that my you know saying that i [42:05] think that the person who mistreated me should receive a pardon but she did so uh i you know the [42:12] the office the clemency office did all the due diligence to make sure that the the letter was authentic and [42:18] and and and so i thought that it's important to listen to victims victims uh often are not listened [42:25] to in our criminal justice system now there were a lot of people who had pardons up that day who [42:29] didn't get them because they didn't have a victim support but i thought that was important uh to make [42:35] sure that we were uh we were standing and listening to victims in that case ron shoes would you draw any red [42:40] lines uh for pardon applications i might come before you pardon should be reserved for those who have been [42:46] wrongfully convicted in this case there was zero doubt that mr vang had been wrongfully convicted [42:53] he absolutely was properly convicted the ramsey county attorney's office which prosecuted the case [42:59] did not repeat did not support the pardon in that case the victim i the the original file i looked at did [43:07] not have the victim statement and so i contacted the clemency board asked for a copy they sent it to me [43:13] it is an email blacked out and if you were to look at it and put your lawyer hat on you would say this [43:20] has zero zero indicia of liability could not be admitted in court um i would never prosecute a child [43:30] sex offender and a child rapist when i was in the military i prosecuted a child sex offender and i got [43:37] a 17-year conviction in that case i actually had to put the victim on the stand this young girl i had [43:43] to put her on the stand before a military court martial and walk her through what happened to her [43:49] it was excruciating one of the toughest things i've ever done i got a 17-year sentence in that case [43:55] i would never ever pardon someone who was a child rapist so brian let me just put this uh in in the [44:02] proper perspective first of all uh he's talking about a criminal prosecution we just convicted [44:08] somebody in winona who was a coach and criminally victimized three people that person i think they're [44:13] getting away more than 17 years in prison i can tell you that so that that's apples and oranges when [44:19] it comes to this issue of of pardon ron one of your donors mr jim not black was credibly accused of [44:26] sexual abuse in his child he gave you a campaign donation it was brought to your attention and you have [44:31] not returned it the problem is we're talking about you know you're very selective on these issues and so [44:38] what i'm saying is i listen to victims after reading the entire file after listening to the entire case [44:45] and that's the decision that i made but ron also said wrongful he would not pardon anyone unless they [44:51] were wrongfully convicted that's not the pardon board nearly everybody who comes in front of the [44:56] pardon board has been convicted duly convicted properly convicted and is seeking clemency which [45:02] is mercy and so what ron's saying is he's going to be a no on every single case it is the innocence [45:08] pro it is the there's a whole nother procedure for people who are wrongfully this difference between [45:12] exoneration and and pardons do you want to clear that up and also the campaign or so we need to keep in [45:17] mind that what a pardon does it's like waving a magic wand and making the conviction go away it's not as [45:23] as if somebody's in jail is granted some type of clemency relief and they get out of jail early [45:29] i'd also point out that's called i'd also i'd also point out that uh amy klobuchar went on record [45:35] saying she would not agree to have granted that pardon and the red line i drew drew in the sand was [45:41] not all pardons it was for child rapists so laws pertaining to minnesota's gun possession have been [45:47] front and center in recent years and a source of litigation ron shoots would you defend the gun laws [45:51] minnesota has on the books now so would i defend the gun laws minnesota has on the books so the [45:57] particular suit you're talking about i believe involves a 30-day waiting period is that the case [46:01] you're talking about just any of there there seems to be many there's okay there's a live case right [46:05] now sure there's a lot so let's talk about not in the abstract but in what's actually on the table [46:11] there's a case right now it has a 30-day waiting period the federal government has sued to declare that [46:16] law unconstitutional and as we talked about previously it's the job of the attorney general [46:21] to defend the state of minnesota in cases like that provided the law is constitutional and that [46:28] duty quite frankly comes from the oath that the attorney general has to take to uphold the constitution [46:34] of the united states if you look in the state constitution article 5 section 6 you have to up [46:40] agree to uphold the u.s constitution here we have the united states of america claiming that this law [46:48] is unconstitutional so what i would do if i were the attorney general is i would take a really deep [46:55] dive into the law i'd consult constitutional law experts second amendment experts and make a decision [47:02] as to whether that law was in fact constitutional or unconstitutional if it was constitutional i would [47:08] have a duty to defend it if it was unconstitutional i would have a duty not to defend it let me ask you [47:14] something here you can chime in when i give you a chance you've taken legal action against gun [47:19] retailers over sales to allege straw buyers explain that route and would there be more in the third term [47:26] first of all let me point out to people listening the number one cause of death for people under 18 [47:32] is guns annunciation shooting two beautiful children shot down and an entire community terrorized my [47:41] dear friend melissa hortman and her husband and senator hoffman and his wife gun violence is a very [47:49] serious scourge in our community and you better believe that i would defend every minnesota law on [47:54] the books to protect people from gun violence and yes i'm actively uh suing glock right now because you [48:01] can put a ten dollar device in a glock and convert it from a semi-automatic into a machine gun which [48:06] is illegal i'm suing them over that and i sued fleet farm because fleet farm though you know a decent [48:12] company they still sold guns to straw purchasers what is a straw purchaser somebody who buys guns because [48:21] they have a clean record and then turn around and sell them and yes i sued them when that happened and [48:27] i got injunctive relief with made which makes it a lot more difficult for people for straw purchasers [48:33] to get guns and ron shoots i want to ask you about something i came across when preparing for this it [48:37] was a 2019 lawsuit in which you and your firm represented the state of a man the estate of [48:44] someone who sued a health provider after a man receiving mental health treatment shot and killed his [48:48] family and then himself that now settled lawsuit said his providers failed to adequately assess his risks [48:53] and access to firearms with that in mind how do you view minnesota's red flag was so i i think the [49:01] case you're referring to was a case that we brought against health partner correct yeah that was a case [49:08] we brought against health partners on behalf of the family of and i'm trying the case goes back but it [49:14] was the family of brian short pardon me brian short was yeah brian short brian short was suffering [49:21] unbelievable mental issues over prescribed drugs went in to get counseling they absolutely failed him [49:30] and that failure put his family at risk and he shot his whole family and we sued in that case it it [49:36] ultimately resulted in a um settlement the case ultimately resulted in settlement but that was [49:46] you know again that that was a case that i'm proud that we took so do you view minnesota's red flag [49:51] laws in a positive light after that well that first of all that case um did not involve red flag laws it [50:00] involved pleading said that they didn't they didn't assess his access to firearms and they should have [50:05] well did it's but yes that the the problem was that the um health partners did not bring to the [50:14] attention of the appropriate authorities uh and did not bring the attention quite frankly of to his family [50:20] the danger so that the family could take efforts to remove the fire harm from the home that was [50:25] basically the allegations in that case is minnesota's red flag law working yes it is and i think it's a [50:32] very good one i was glad to be able to testify in favor of it but also uh we're trying to get stronger [50:37] laws when it comes to ghost guns these are guns that could be manufactured with a uh 3d printer but [50:44] wouldn't have uh any serial numbers on them and make them impossible to trace the only way we traced [50:50] those uh fleet farm guns is because they had serial numbers on them police officers across the state of [50:55] minnesota so across minneapolis and st paul and minnesota will tell you that an untraceable gun [51:00] makes the public much more at risk so i absolutely believe it's a good law i'm glad i testified for it [51:06] and i want to see more done ron i think should tell you that he's opposed to the university of minnesota [51:12] law school's gun violence prevention task force he said he would not continue that program i'm proud [51:17] of that program and i'm trying to find more ways to protect people from gun violence did you get [51:22] that right i have you did i have zero recollection where i i said that if i did i guess you could [51:27] point it out to me but i don't have any recollection of all right we're starting to run short on time so [51:31] i want to quickly address a few more topics before we leave time for closing statements so let's try to [51:35] zip through these if possible here sir uh governor tim walls issued an executive order banning a [51:40] certain type of mining in northern northern minnesota near the boundary waters if the next governor keeps [51:45] that in place would you defend that in court certainly i would defend any legal measure that [51:52] the state issues an executive order or whatever um to me you the only way you can you have a right to [51:59] not defend it is if it's unconstitutional and so if it's constitutional i'm gonna defend it in court [52:03] because that's my job the mining executive order i think the answer is like i said we don't agree on [52:08] much but the attorney general has a duty to defend constitutional laws and unless there were some [52:14] clear argument that what the governor did was unconstitutional i would defend it because it's [52:19] my job to do that all right you first hear ron shoots a minnesota's law to borrow the hosting of [52:23] prediction markets is another that's been a under fire what would be your posture there prediction [52:29] markets i they i think they take advantage of too many people i think that there needs to be [52:37] either some legislation or regulation on these prediction markets if you dig down in these [52:43] prediction markets people get fleeced all the time there so there may be things that the attorney [52:48] general's office can do even without legislation but i i generally don't think online gambling is a good [52:56] idea in general well uh mr shoots is is is right it's um prediction markets are damaging to people's [53:05] ability to afford their lives i will tell you when i was in congress i actually was on the committee [53:11] that that allowed for the commodity futures trading commission to have jurisdiction over these kind of [53:17] trades but never was who was gonna win the nba finals on the minds of anybody in the congress what was on [53:25] the minds of congress was people getting things like credit default swaps against mortgage mortgages [53:31] backed securities that went down nothing on this sports stuff so i think that uh we're we're defending [53:37] the minnesota law right now we intend to win it and i think that congress needs to act to make these [53:43] clearly uh something that is regulated by the states how active of a role briefly uh should minnesota [53:50] attorney general take on these hyperscale data centers and whether [53:53] uh their construction goes forward well honestly there is a law already in place minnesota statute 216b [54:01] which says that these large consumers of energy cannot push prices onto consumers cannot foist the uh [54:09] the the burden onto consumers for those costs and cannot uh uh undermine water quality and a range of [54:15] other things so i'm all four square with that law i think it's a great law and i've sat down with the [54:20] people in hermantown minnesota and they are very concerned about that and transparency what do you [54:24] want to say about data centers you're talking about data centers yes well the whether to build or not [54:30] build a data center is a local issue with some state overlay and overlap in terms of of regulatory [54:37] compliance if some local community wants to have a data center as long as they comply with uh minnesota [54:45] law then there's no problem as the attorney general said if they're if they're not complying with some [54:50] law then it's the job of the attorney general to step in all right we've reached the point where we're [54:54] going to give you some time for closing pitches to the voters who are voting right now or a month from [54:59] now uh we flipped a coin and for 90 seconds here ron shoots you go ahead and tell us why you should [55:06] be the attorney general thank you brian this race really comes down to a choice between someone who spent his [55:13] career in the courtroom as a trial lawyer and someone who's a politician i would ask minnesotans to ask [55:19] themselves this question if they had to go to court and their life their liberty their property were at [55:27] stake and they absolutely needed to win who would they want to go who would they want to go into court [55:34] with them a career trial lawyer who's been recognized as one of the top lawyers in the country repeatedly [55:41] been recognized as one of the top lawyers in the country who has won tens of millions of dollars on [55:46] behalf of his clients frequently small businesses and individuals including 110 million dollars in [55:52] one case on behalf of a small company in rhode island that was was threatened by general electric [55:58] one of the biggest corporations in the world would they want to go into court with that lawyer [56:03] or would they want to go into court with a lawyer who's had a career in politics and if their answer [56:10] is they should go into court with the lawyer who's been recognized one of the top in the country [56:14] then minnesota itself deserves the same lawyer representing them thank you brian keith elson your [56:20] 90 seconds thank you you know brian thanks for uh having us here today and i'll thank my opponent [56:25] mr shoots as well for the time my my core uh goal is to help people afford their lives that's why i left [56:35] congress and why i became the attorney general why i made lowering the price of insulin my first thing [56:42] that i did but i didn't stop there we also started a wage death unit where we actually fight for and get [56:48] back millions of dollars of stolen wages of workers i sued john deere because they were interfering with [56:54] farmers ability to repair equipment that is a cost lowering measure i sued meta and and i sued them [57:02] because they were pushing these addictive algorithms which were hooking our kids i sued phillip morris [57:07] because they were doing the same thing with these vapes now my opponent owns stock in all these things [57:14] he literally profits from john deere eli lily uh meta uh um and and all these different kind of [57:20] companies that we mentioned before this is a conflict of interest which you should not tolerate you should [57:26] vote for the person who has no conflict of interest whose only goal is the public interest which [57:32] is what i've been doing look i've convicted over 350 people of medicaid fraud one a one every eight [57:39] days and i will continue to do that plus more i ask for your vote please vote and uh vote for the [57:47] person who's going to fight for your family and help you afford your life and that is all the time we [57:51] have thank you to keith ellison and ron shoots for joining us they're both vying to be minnesota's attorney general [57:55] this debate was produced by matt alvarez and jeff jones with a lot of folks from the npr news events and technical teams helping out [58:01] you can find video of this debate at npr news.org also find our handy dandy voter guide there when [58:07] you're looking to it's got races up and down the ballot next week on politics friday we'll hear from [58:12] the candidates in minnesota's second congressional district then in two weeks tune in for a u.s [58:17] senate debate right here remember election day is tuesday november 3rd early voting has begun [58:23] until then stay safe and have a great weekend thank you brian thank you brian okay