Mike Pence says 2nd Trump term ‘departed’ from ‘conservative agenda’: Full interview

[0:00] Joining me now is former Vice President Mike Pence. He's the author of the new book, [0:05] What Conservatives Believe, Rediscovering the Conservative Conscience. Mr. Vice President, [0:11] welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you, Kristen. Good to be back. [0:14] It's wonderful to have you here, have your book. We're going to talk about it in just a moment. [0:18] I do want to start, though, on Texas, this big political shakeup this week. Ken Paxton, [0:24] now the Republican nominee. Of course, what happens in Texas could help to determine [0:29] whether Republicans hold on to control of the Senate. Republicans themselves, though, [0:35] have raised ethical, moral, even strategic concerns about Attorney General Ken Paxton. [0:43] Do you believe that Ken Paxton, as the nominee, could put the Texas Senate seat in jeopardy for [0:49] Republicans? Well, I have great confidence in Republicans in Texas. [0:55] And maintaining the majority in the Senate is enormously important in a midterm election where [1:02] it's going to be an uphill battle in the House of Representatives, although I'm proud of the [1:07] effort Republicans are making in that regard as well. But, look, I see all of this as evidence of, [1:12] you know, that President Trump has enormous popularity in the Republican Party. His endorsement [1:18] in Texas, his endorsement in Louisiana, his endorsements in Indiana proved that out. And I think [1:24] the reason the president is popular is because during our time in office and over the last several [1:31] years, people have seen this is a president who's been willing to fight the radical left and to [1:37] champion the principles that have defined our party for 50 years. And I'm grateful for that. [1:43] But the reason I wrote the book is because there's a new threat to that historic conservatism in the [1:50] Republican Party. And it's a threat from the populist right that would embrace big government, [1:57] the policies, many of which have been embraced by this administration of not only broad-based tariffs, [2:03] nationalization of businesses, price controls. There's, you know, also been a willingness to [2:10] embrace some of the rhetoric of the populist right with regard to isolationism. There are voices that [2:16] have, you know, pulled us back from unwavering support as leader of the free world, particularly [2:22] in Eastern Europe and even many challenging our support for Israel. And then lastly, just [2:27] marginalizing the right to life, which has always been at the center of our movement. So for me, [2:32] I'm not surprised by what happened in Texas or in the other primaries because of the way the [2:39] president has championed our cause against the radical left. But I want people to understand [2:44] what conservatives believe as we go into this midterm election. I'd love to see Republicans get [2:51] back to running on those conservative principles again. And in 2028, I think it'll be more important [2:57] to decide what we're for before we decide who we're for. Well, you talk about the case for [3:02] conservative principles, and I'm going to read some of your book in just a moment. But you also talk [3:07] about the importance of character, that character matters in public service. Ken Paxton was indicted [3:13] on security fraud charges in 2015. He was impeached by members of his own party over alleged bribery in [3:20] 2023. His wife filed for divorce in 2025 after accusing him of adultery. Bottom line, Mr. Vice President, [3:28] do you support Ken Paxton? Well, I could never, if I was voting in Texas, I could never vote for the [3:34] Democrat nominee, Tallarico, who is a radical left, supports abortion on demand. But do you support Ken Paxton? [3:44] Gender ideology of the Democratic Party. Look, I think in many respects, Republicans have lost our [3:50] way, but Democrats have lost their mind. And I think the reason why we're going to hold the Senate [3:57] and we have a real shot to hold the House is because of the extremism on the Democratic side. [4:04] I mean, you literally have candidates, not just the mayor of New York, but some of the most prominent [4:09] voices in the party that are openly advocating for socialist policies and socialism itself. [4:15] And I think that's the reason why this election is so important. But it's also, it's also the [4:20] reason why I think there's an enormous opportunity ahead for Republicans to be a choice, not an echo, [4:27] as President Ronald Reagan said back in the day, is to literally say as they go farther and farther to [4:32] the progressive left. The answer ought not to be the antidote of the populist right of protectionism, [4:39] isolationism, and marginalizing the right to life. The answer ought to be to sound, as the Bible says, [4:45] a clear call for conservative principles. And that's what I'm going to be advocating in this book [4:53] and across the country. [4:54] Let's talk big picture because Senator John Cornyn's defeat is the latest. You talked about [4:59] this string of losses, Bill Cassidy, Congressman Thomas Massey, several Indiana state senators. [5:06] Senator Lindsey Graham was on this program several weeks ago. He told me the Republican Party [5:11] is the party of Donald Trump. Is the Republican Party the party of Donald Trump? [5:16] Oh, I don't think there's any question about the president's popularity. I give him all the credit [5:20] in the world for the hold that he has on Republican voters. But I maintain to you that it's because of [5:27] the president's commitment to take on the radical left in our four years and also ever since. [5:36] But I think what's lesser known right now is the way the second Trump administration has departed [5:43] from the conservative agenda that we governed on, the conservative agenda that has defined the [5:48] Republican Party since the days of Ronald Reagan and before. And that's an agenda of American [5:54] leadership, limited government, free market economics, the right to life. And on a number [6:01] of those issues, the president's been good. I want to give him credit for strong, securing the border, [6:06] the extending tax cuts, standing with Israel. But when you see an administration with broad-based [6:12] tariffs, nationalizing American businesses, questioning and pulling back from our allies [6:20] as they endure the brutal assault in Eastern Europe from Russia, I think Republicans would do well to [6:30] take some time to reflect on what we believe again and take that message to the American people. [6:34] Is there room right now, Mr. Vice President, in the Republican Party for disagreement? [6:40] Well, in primaries, there's a little less room. [6:47] What about general elections? You're making a robust case against populism. What about, broadly speaking? [6:54] I think there's, I think that we're living in a time of, you know, extraordinary change in both [7:03] political parties. You literally see the Democratic Party being dragged off, not just to the radical [7:08] left, but to socialist policies and extremism on social issues. And, but in the Republican Party, [7:17] there are these fault lines. And, but I still believe, Kristen, that the overwhelming majority of [7:23] people that ever vote Republican believe in freedom, believe in limited government, believe in traditional [7:29] values. And I think if Republicans this fall and in 2028, hold up those time-honored conservative [7:37] principles, those voters will rally to our cause. All right, well, let's delve into your book, [7:42] What Conservatives Believe. I want to read an excerpt. You write this. [7:46] We face a momentous choice. Will we remain a party of conservative beliefs? Or will we follow [7:53] the siren song of populism unmoored to conservative principles? The future of our party, our movement, [8:00] and even our country belongs to one or the other. It cannot belong to both. The divide between these two [8:07] factions is too vast. Republicans must pick a side. Strong words there, Mr. Vice President. Is your book [8:16] effectively a rejection of the MAGA movement? Well, not at all. You know, Kristen, I spoke in front [8:26] of more MAGA rallies than I could possibly remember. And these were some of the most freedom-loving, [8:33] patriotic, God-fearing, conservative Americans that I ever met. And they still are. I mean, I understand [8:40] the loyalty to the president. I understand the desire to support him in primary elections and [8:47] to stand by him while he pushes back on the radical left. But I believe that the overwhelming [8:53] majority of people in the MAGA movement believe that America is the leader of the free world, [8:59] believe in limited government, less taxes, less regulations, would reject ideas like [9:04] nationalization of businesses and price controls and broad-based tariffs. And at the core of our [9:11] movement is a commitment to the sanctity of life. I mean, we had the most pro-life administration [9:16] in American history. We put the judges on the court who sent Roe versus Wade to the ash heap of history [9:22] where it belongs. But, Kristen, in this administration, we see a desire to relegate the right to life to a [9:31] state-only issue. To actually have a pro-abortion secretary of HHS who has done nothing to limit [9:38] the availability of the abortion pill on a mail-order basis that Joe Biden made possible across the [9:46] country. Dangerous pill, claims unborn lives is a danger to women. So when you see the administration [9:54] embracing those populist ideas, I think we're going to have a fulsome debate about the future. [9:59] OK. And we should say there is a debate over the medical background to what you're saying. But let's [10:04] stay on this topic. Look, you ran for president against Donald Trump in 2024, arguing that he put [10:13] himself above the Constitution on January 6th. And I guess my question is, do you believe that [10:19] President Trump is a populist and that the party needs to move beyond Donald Trump? [10:24] Well, I'm not much for labels, but I do say in the book that I lost count of the number of times [10:31] that I would say to the president privately, well, that's the conservative position. And he'd wave his [10:38] hand and say, he'd say, that's not conservative, it's just common sense. I mean, in fairness to the [10:44] president, he's never really said he was a conservative. And in so many ways, I think he's, [10:51] you know, he represents in some measure what the populist right is about. The populist right [10:58] is attempting to take the president's departure from the conservative agenda, whether it be on [11:04] tariffs, whether it be with regard to Ukraine and Eastern Europe, whether it be regard to life, [11:08] and try to make that the new foundational philosophy of the Republican Party. [11:13] So are you saying it's time for Republicans to move beyond Donald Trump? [11:17] Well, look, you know, as I wrote in the book, leaders fade into history, but principles endure. [11:26] And I truly do believe that Republicans deserve to know that there is a populist right movement. [11:32] Some of their agenda items the administration has embraced, some they haven't. I mean, I give the [11:37] president, I give the president great credit for the way he stood with Israel, stood up to Iran, [11:43] to the way the president extended all those Trump-Pence tax cuts. But where he's embraced that [11:49] populist movement, I think you could see the Republican Party, if we don't get it right, [11:54] we're going to end up moving in the progressive direction. And for the sake not of our party or [11:59] elections, but for the sake of the country, I believe we have to have a party that's advancing [12:05] these timeless conservative principles of life and liberty. [12:10] Let's talk about the future. A lot of people see Vice President J.D. Vance as the potential [12:15] heir apparent to President Trump. Could Vice President J.D. Vance be the type of [12:21] leader of the conservative movement that you are talking about here? [12:26] Well, I think that'll be up for voters to decide. [12:30] But do you see him as someone who embodies the core conservative principles that you write about in [12:35] this book? Well, what I'll tell you is my focus, [12:39] the focus of the book, is I think it's going to be important as we look to 2028 to first focus [12:45] on what we're for before we focus on who we're for. I mean, when I was Vice President, I led in the [12:51] polls as a potential successor to the president as well. It comes with the office to a certain extent, [12:57] and the Vice President's been carrying himself in a dignified and honorable way. I respect that. [13:03] But I think as we go into 2028, my hope, my ambition is that we will have a fulsome debate over [13:11] whether this populist right agenda, which is a big government Republican agenda that marginalizes [13:17] values, that pulls back from American leadership in the world, is who we are, or whether we're going [13:22] to return to those time-honored principles that have defined our party and not just won elections, [13:28] but won a strong and free and prosperous America. We're almost out of time. Let's do a little rapid [13:33] fire here. You've heard about the president's $1.8 billion fund, the so-called anti-weaponization [13:40] fund to pay people who say they were unfairly investigated or prosecuted by the government. [13:45] It's tied up in the courts right now. But, Mr. Vice President, should the government [13:49] in any instance compensate people who attacked law enforcement officers on January 6th? [13:55] Well, look, I think that the weaponization fund is a bad idea from the start. And I would [14:01] encourage the administration just to drop it. The Justice Department has the ability [14:06] to settle cases like they did with that pro-life family who was put upon during the Biden administration, [14:12] got us a well-deserved seven-figure settlement this week. But let's get rid of this fund. I mean, [14:20] it's deeply offensive to me that you could have a fund that could even possibly compensate people [14:27] who assaulted police officers or vandalized the Capitol on January 6th. And I think that's broadly held [14:33] by most Republicans and most Americans. [14:36] Finally, Mr. Vice President, I have to ask you, a year ago, I asked you and I had the chance to sit [14:42] down with you if you would ever consider running for president again. You told me, quote, [14:47] I don't see that in my future. Are you ruling out a run in 2028? [14:52] Well, look, I like to say to people, my life is not my own. I'm a man of faith. And Karen and I [15:00] will pray about the future. But I have no active ambition to reenter politics. As Luke Combs says [15:06] in the song, I think I rode that rocket about as far as it can fly. I mean, this book for me is all [15:14] about trying to play a role now in my party to be a champion for the conservative principles that drew [15:19] me to the Republican Party to begin with. Their principles of a commitment to limited government, [15:24] the rule of law, American leadership in the world, traditional moral values. I want to [15:30] champion those principles with what remains of my bully pulpit. And we'll let the future take care [15:36] of itself. All right. Well, we'll keep the conversation going. Vice President Mike Pence, [15:40] thank you so very much for being here in person. [15:42] We thank you for watching. 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