Michael Lewis on how DOGE changed 'all the incentives' in government: Full interview

[0:00] Joining me now is Michael Lewis, author of the new book, [0:03] Blockers, Rebels in the Deep State. [0:06] Michael Lewis, welcome back to Meet the Press. [0:08] Thank you for having me back. [0:09] Here is the book. [0:09] It's a fascinating read, an inside look at what actually went on with Doge, [0:15] all of the inner workings, the perspective from a handful of federal workers. [0:20] And it's notable, Elon Musk dubbed those who were blocking his efforts blockers, [0:26] hence the name of your book. [0:27] Why did you want to write this book now? [0:30] Well, I'd already had experience writing about the civil service [0:34] and the two million person nonpartisan workforce [0:39] and had been so shocked when I started to get to meet these people, [0:43] how different they were from popular perception. [0:46] Like there is a stereotype and it's sort of like, I don't know, [0:49] lazy bureaucrat or whatever you want to say. [0:51] And when I started to get to know these people, [0:54] shocked how mission driven they were, [0:57] shocked by like the importance of what's going on, [1:00] everything from like predicting the weather to saving people at sea [1:04] to figuring out how to prepare for wildfire risk. [1:07] People with the kind of real expertise. [1:10] And they're so protective of what they do and proud. [1:12] And they don't talk about it. [1:14] And so, but it's sort of like when a stereotype blows up in your head, [1:17] I don't know, it's like if you walked into an NFL locker room [1:20] and you found all the players reading and reciting poetry [1:22] and you go, wait, wait, football players are different than I thought. [1:25] It was that kind of thing. [1:27] And I thought these stories just like need to be told. [1:30] So I was interested in them anyway, the characters. [1:32] And then this thing, the Trump administration comes and collides with them [1:36] and, you know, seeking to destroy. [1:38] And it was, and the question I had was, all right, what's the bigger thing? [1:43] I think Doge is only a piece of the story. [1:45] And Doge is only a piece of this story. [1:47] It's sort of like, what happens when you try to turn this 2 million person [1:51] instrument of American power, but 2 million, nonpartisan workforce [1:55] into like a loyalist operation that's very politicized, [1:59] that serves the interests of just the president. [2:01] It changes all the incentives in the government. [2:04] It changes the behaviors and it changes like the way the government functions. [2:07] So that was the idea is like, look at what the government does [2:09] and like, what kind of government we're going to have now. [2:11] And we're going to do it through people. [2:13] We're going to do it through the people. [2:14] We're going to tell the story of what's going on now [2:15] through the people who no longer belong in it. [2:18] Well, you write that President Trump had hoped Doge would be [2:22] like the Manhattan Project. [2:23] Doge, of course, shut down in July without accomplishing [2:27] what it had set out to. [2:28] And you write, Doge hadn't been practical and constructive, [2:32] but political and destructive. [2:35] Do you believe a practical, constructive version for Doge is needed? [2:39] Is it impossible? [2:40] Oh, my God, it's so necessary. [2:41] Yeah. [2:42] And there is a, I mean, there is an, [2:44] if you want to look for silver linings here, [2:45] so much, there's been so much destruction [2:47] that maybe we're in a place where we can have a conversation of what you do. [2:49] I mean, the way the government runs, it's not, [2:52] this is not the fault of the people in the government. [2:54] And you sort of have to separate government from politics. [2:57] You're talking about politics on the show all the time, right? [2:59] Very hard to talk about what the civil service does. [3:02] But they operate with bosses rotating in and out every year, [3:09] often who don't have any idea of the operation they're running, [3:11] budgets that are unpredictable, [3:13] a public that doesn't understand what they do and is hostile to them. [3:16] No incentive to stick your head up and explain [3:19] because you get punched when you do. [3:22] I mean, it's just, it is, [3:23] no one will run a company the way we run the government. [3:25] And there is the argument for, like, system reform [3:28] with the help of these people explaining what they do [3:32] so that the system gets reformed intelligently. [3:34] Well, you take me to my next question, [3:36] which is, do you think the federal government should be, [3:39] can be run like a private company? [3:42] Would it be more efficient? [3:43] It's not, it's different. [3:44] If you've got to start by accepting it as just a different thing. [3:47] I mean, it's, you need, for example. [3:50] It's not possible, you don't think. [3:51] Look, if you want these people not to be politicized, [3:53] and they aren't, like, they don't, [3:55] people work alongside each other in government. [3:57] They have no idea what their politics are. [3:59] They're involved in some task that we all want them to do. [4:03] If you want that, this thing to be not political, [4:07] you have to create some protections [4:08] for the people from the politicians. [4:11] The politicians will come in and do bad things, [4:13] like use your tax returns as a weapon against you. [4:16] The woman whose job it was to prevent that from happening [4:19] got run out by this administration [4:20] because they wanted to use the tax returns. [4:23] So that, so in a business, [4:26] the boss can always fire the underling. [4:28] In this case, it has to be a little more nuanced. [4:30] It is more complicated, [4:32] but it's not like you can't have conversations [4:35] about efficiency. [4:36] Why not? [4:38] But mainly, to get back to your first question, [4:41] these people have been, like, a joy to write about. [4:44] I mean, it's, in some ways, a disturbing subject, [4:47] but an absolute delight to write about. [4:49] Well, speaking about your writing, [4:51] you've expressed a lot of interest in AI, [4:53] as have all of us. [4:54] Could that, perchance, be your next project? [4:57] What are we going to see next, Michael Lewis? [5:00] I got to say that I get, [5:02] what makes my socks go up and down [5:03] is when I'm looking in a place [5:05] that people aren't paying that much attention to, [5:07] like the civil service. [5:08] And that when I feel like [5:10] I've got something extremely important [5:11] that people just need, [5:13] a light needs to be shined. [5:15] And I'm not sure that a light [5:16] needs to be shined on AI right now. [5:18] It's all anybody's talking about. [5:19] There may be a way to do it [5:21] that would be interesting, [5:22] but I'm not, like, looking to do that. [5:24] I'm more interested in natural stupidity [5:27] than I am in artificial intelligence. [5:28] Fantastic. [5:30] Well, if there's a light to be shown, [5:32] I'm sure you will find it. [5:33] Michael, thank you so much. [5:34] Thanks for having me. [5:35] Appreciate your being here very much. [5:37] The new book is Lockers.