Meet the Press NOW — April 3

[0:11] Welcome to Meet the Press Now. I'm Kristen Welker in Washington, and we are following [0:15] major breaking news in the war with Iran after an American F-15 fighter jet was shot down by [0:22] Iran today deep inside Iranian airspace. It's believed the two pilots ejected from that [0:27] aircraft. One pilot has been rescued and is alive, and a search and rescue operation is underway [0:34] right now for the second pilot. We're also just learning that two U.S. military helicopters [0:39] involved in the F-15 search and rescue efforts were struck by Iranian fire, but the service [0:45] members are safe, according to a U.S. official. Iran's state media released these images of what [0:50] appear to be fragments of that downed fighter jet. A regional governor in southwest Iran is [0:55] calling on Iranians to try to find the missing American, promising a substantial reward. This [1:02] video appearing to show a U.S. C-130 tanker and two helicopters flying over southern Iran [1:08] as the U.S. [1:09] Air Force is conducting its search and rescue operation. The White House says the president [1:13] has been briefed on the incident, which marks a significant escalation in the war. This [1:18] is the first time that we know of that a U.S. aircraft has been shot down behind enemy lines [1:24] since the conflict began almost five weeks ago. [1:28] Now all of this comes after President Trump has for several weeks now been touting the [1:32] success of the U.S. military operations against Iran and claiming U.S. dominance over Iranian [1:38] airspace. [1:39] Here's just some of what he said, including during his primetime address to the nation [1:44] just two days ago. [1:45] Look, in a certain sense, we've already won because we've knocked out their Navy, we've [1:50] knocked out their Air Force, and we knocked out all of their communications, their telecommunications, [1:57] and very importantly, we knocked out their anti-aircraft apparatus. [2:03] We are systematically dismantling the regime's ability to threaten America or project power [2:09] outside of their borders. [2:10] That means eliminating Iran's navy, which is now absolutely destroyed, hurting their [2:18] Air Force and their missile program at levels never seen before. [2:22] They have no anti-aircraft equipment. [2:25] Their radar is 100% annihilated. [2:28] We are unstoppable as a military force, and the country has been eviscerated and essentially [2:36] is really no longer a threat. [2:38] Earlier this week, Defense Secretary Pete Hegsel. [2:41] Hegseth also claimed Iran's military has been significantly degraded. [2:46] The upcoming days will be decisive. Iran knows that, [2:49] and there's almost nothing they can militarily do about it. [2:54] Yes, they will still shoot some missiles, but we will shoot them down. [2:58] This latest incident only adding to the already heightened tensions in the region. [3:03] Iran now accusing the US of striking civilian infrastructure, [3:07] saying eight people were killed and 95 injured in a US strike on one of Iran's largest bridges, [3:13] which connects Tehran to a neighboring city. [3:15] And President Trump changing his tune once again on the war's timeline and objectives, [3:20] posting this morning on social media, quote, [3:22] with a little more time, the US can easily open the Strait of Hormuz and take the oil. [3:27] Joining me now is NBC News Senior White House Correspondent Garrett Haake, [3:31] NBC News Senior Homeland Security Correspondent Courtney Kuby, [3:35] NBC News Military Analyst Retired Army Colonel Steve Warren, [3:39] and NBC News International Correspondent Matt Bradley, [3:42] who is [3:42] in Tel Aviv. [3:44] And Courtney, I'm going to start with you. [3:46] You have been tracking this since we first learned about it. [3:48] What is the very latest we're hearing? [3:51] So we don't have any huge developments in the last few hours anyway, [3:55] and that is that the US was able to find one of the individuals who's on this downed F-15 Strike [4:01] Eagle, F-15E. An official tells us that it looks as if Iran was responsible for shooting down this [4:08] aircraft. The first time that we know of in this war that Iran has actually been able to down a [4:12] man. [4:12] Aircraft inside of Iran. One of the pilots or one of the individuals airmen on board was rescued. [4:17] The other one, there is still an extensive search and rescue effort to find that person. It is [4:23] urgent. It's dark now in Iran and they are very concerned because Iranian officials are [4:28] probably looking for the person as well. [4:30] Colonel Warren, can you put all of this into perspective for us? How significant [4:35] is this? Here we are five weeks into this war and Iran has shot down this F-15 fighter jet. [4:40] Sure. Losing an aircraft, have an aircraft shot. [4:42] Down is always significant. It's a significant emotional event for all involved. But I think [4:47] some context is important. They've flown more than 13,000 sorties thus far without a plane being [4:54] shot down. That in and of itself is remarkable. Those numbers are extraordinary. Now what we have [4:59] is a hundred or more American service members putting their lives at risk [5:03] to bring that last pilot home. [5:04] Yeah. Well, we know that they are working really hard to do that. [5:07] Garrett Haake, let me go out to you at the White House. You just spoke with President Trump by [5:12] phone. What do you have to say about that? [5:12] What did he say to you? What's the reaction been at the White House today, Garrett? [5:16] Well, Kristen, the White House has been uncharacteristically quiet and extremely [5:21] careful with their messaging around this shoot down. The president did not want to talk about [5:25] the specifics of it with me at all, even asked for a portion of the conversation to be off the [5:30] record. He's clearly to some degree frustrated at the coverage, at the images and the possibility [5:36] that that might make finding this surviving pilot more difficult. But on the big picture, [5:41] it doesn't appear to change. [5:42] It doesn't change anything about his view of the war long term. I asked him whether the events [5:47] of today would affect any negotiations that might be going on with Iran. And he said, no, not at all. [5:52] And he said, this is notable, he said, this is war. It is war. And I think just the tone of that, [5:57] you know, it wasn't an excursion. It wasn't a detour. I think the seriousness of this moment [6:01] is not lost on this White House, you know, as we're in this sort of a bit of a holding pattern [6:07] here, essentially, including the White House, everyone desperate to find out more information [6:11] about that second aviator. [6:12] Well, you had a short conversation, Gareth, but a significant one, because he said [6:17] that this doesn't necessarily impact negotiations, and because he did call it [6:20] a war. Matt Bradley, let me go out to you. You have been covering this in [6:25] the region. What are you hearing about the reaction from Iran? Obviously, as Courtney [6:31] just noted, Iranian officials are calling on people to try to locate this pilot. [6:39] Not only that, in offering a reward, as you mentioned, about US$60,000, which doesn't sound [6:44] like that very much but they are still fanning out we're seeing some videos of iranians looking for [6:50] these two men one of them of course already captured excuse me one of them already recovered [6:56] one of them now entirely missing and whereabouts and uh status unknown um you know this is uh [7:03] something that we could actually see going on for the next couple of days we know we've been hearing [7:07] from experts uh who know about the u.s military and their capabilities these pilots have been [7:12] trained to survive but meanwhile this really just goes to show that the iranians are still able to [7:18] punch back now five weeks into this war we've been hearing more reports of strikes against [7:23] gulf countries like abu dhabi which got another death today five weeks into the war we're still [7:28] seeing the iranians striking here in israel not only with their ballistic missiles but also through [7:34] their proxies hezbollah in lebanon where the war israel's ground war against hezbollah is widening [7:42] after what you had just played all of those comments by pete hegzath the defense secretary [7:47] donald trump himself saying that the u.s now enjoys almost complete dominance and air superiority over [7:53] iran with four uh excuse me three now u.s aircraft at least that have been struck today it seems that [8:01] it is a very strange moment for the trump administration if they're going to continue [8:05] to say that they enjoy this dominance as garrett hake has said it sounds as though they are [8:10] quieting a little bit at this moment [8:12] they're going to keep the boasting down uh until they can find this other soldier well i think it's [8:17] a really critical point matt that you make and courtney let me have you pick up on this because [8:21] president trump addressed the nation this week on wednesday and part of his argument was the united [8:28] states has established air dominance over iran how does the fact that iran has just shot down [8:34] this f-15 fighter jet impact those statements those claims by president trump doesn't undercut [8:42] it absolutely it also proves that look the u.s can have um air superiority over an area but [8:48] that doesn't mean that it's still not dangerous for u.s aircraft to fly over there unless they [8:52] want to put constant combat air patrols up over and unless they are confident that they have taken [8:58] out every single air defense system on the ground which we know they have not now the mill the u.s [9:03] military has really degraded their air defense capabilities in the last month or so they've [9:07] taken out a lot of their ballistic missiles their drones but the threat from every [9:12] every single threat that iran had when this war began they still have just at a smaller scale [9:17] and what today is proving is that they still have the ability to really hold u.s aircraft u.s troops [9:24] in harm's way in danger if they're flying over the country colonel warren pick up on this point what [9:30] do you make of the air defense capability that iran may still have based on this incident in [9:36] which it shot down an f-15 fighter jet right their superiority air dominance those do not mean [9:42] the same thing but what do you make of the air defense capability that iran has [9:47] so far this is a very high threat completely eliminated right and we don't know yet if this [9:52] aircraft was shot down by one of their more sophisticated systems part of the integrated [9:57] air defense or if it was shot down by a guy with something on his shoulder right or even just gun [10:01] fire can do it the old-fashioned 50 caliber machine guns shooting into the sky they have those as well [10:08] so we don't know yet what we do know is it's a high threat environment this is combat colonel warren [10:12] not just to conduct it but if the worst case happens which it did that your aircraft is shot [10:18] down and that you have to try to survive this is such a human thing right this is very human [10:24] and there's no way to fully prepare these these pilots are so well trained though we send them to [10:28] a three week long escape evasion resistance and survival school it's a very demanding school very [10:35] very rigorous where they're actually captured and put through the ringer so to speak they also learn [10:42] how to hide how to run how to call for help how to survive in the wilderness it's an exceptional [10:48] school not very many people go through it and when they come out of it they're ready yeah courtney [10:52] take us inside your conversations at the pentagon defense officials today the level of concern [10:59] obviously they prepare for this and yet this is a potentially worst case scenario i think the thing [11:06] that proves the level of concern is so high is the fact that we have not heard anything from [11:10] president trump today about this [11:12] they have been able to and to explain to president trump the gravity of the situation that there is an [11:18] american behind enemy lines in direct danger right now there is an urgent search to find this person [11:25] and that anything that is said publicly could potentially put that search at risk [11:29] and if you want to know the gravity of it the president hasn't put anything on truth social [11:32] or spoken publicly about it today and i think that that that in of itself shows it i mean the one [11:37] thing steve is so right about the fear school and how that is such an important capability and and [11:42] the one thing steve is so right about the fear school and how that is such an important capability and and [11:42] skills and knowledge that airmen have uh it's not just that the the us in advance of a big mission [11:48] lower war this is a war right the u.s will put forward personnel recovery teams in the region [11:53] really close and they are on a constant state of readiness so that if something like this happens [11:58] they immediately deploy them to try to go and find these people and it's the one thing that [12:03] i always imagine you know steve said this is so personal and he's right it's a very human thing [12:07] i always wonder what are these people thinking when they're on the ground they're hiding they're [12:11] trying to evade and i think that's what steve is saying so i think steve's right and i think that's [12:12] what steve's right and i think that's what steve's right and i think that's what steve's right and the one thing that must give [12:13] and the one thing that must give them a lot of comfort is knowing that there are highly trained [12:17] combat search and rescue people who are very brave to go in and do what they're doing right now and [12:22] they are doing everything they can to find them fighting for their lives it's extraordinary and [12:26] it's extraordinary to think that they were able to rescue the one pilot uh who was there garrett [12:32] let me turn back to you i want you to pick up on the point that courtney is making the fact that we [12:37] haven't heard from the president yet garrett you can probably count on a few fingers and a few [12:42] fingers the number of days that we have not heard from president trump in the second administration [12:48] what are your conversations in terms of when we might hear from him and the strategy behind when [12:54] he has decided to speak out like this wednesday for example yeah the conversations are short [12:59] because there's just not much information to be had at this point and the white house knows that [13:03] i don't think they want the president out speculating on what might or might not be [13:07] happening on the ground in iran right now but i i would never correct courtney on anything related [13:11] to military matters but i will on a true [13:12] social because in fact the president has posted just within the last hour keep the oil anyone a [13:18] four-word tweet about one of his favorite topics and by the way i do think this is related he's [13:23] been talking more about this idea in just the last couple of days his preference as he has stated it [13:28] that the u.s should go up and seize the straight of four moves and take whatever oil is available [13:33] to be taken from iran it's a position he's been uh espousing for 20 plus years uh it's it's [13:39] fundamental to how he views armed conflict [13:42] and i think it also the fact that he's sharing it in this moment speaks to the idea that his risk [13:47] tolerance may be greater than that of some of the other folks around him he suggested in that easter [13:52] lunch event earlier this week that you know he would take the oil but he thinks the american [13:56] people just want to win the fact that he's still posting about it in this moment of uh of peril [14:01] here for for u.s forces i think is indicative of the big picture way in which he sees this conflict [14:07] yeah and also raises questions garrett about whether he is open to and strongly [14:12] considering sending in u.s forces matt let me turn to you how are gulf countries reacting [14:19] to this moment are they bracing for the possibility of what could be an escalation in the wake of this [14:27] well i mean the fact is when we talk about gulf countries there's already been an escalation as [14:30] far as gulf countries are concerned they have not seen anything change the fact that an american uh [14:36] air force jet was shot down probably won't change anything for the gulf we've already [14:41] seen them taking sustained attacks by the iranians now for several weeks [14:44] and we just had as i mentioned another fatality just today in abu dhabi more gulf states reporting [14:50] that they've been receiving and shooting down for the most part iranian projectiles [14:54] so the situation for the gulf is probably unlikely to change just because of this [14:58] this is going to be seen if anything as an american defeat in the middle east so this [15:04] is probably not going to inflame iran anymore and cause it to lash out against american allies in [15:08] the region if it does anything it will comfort iran and its regime that they have done exactly [15:14] what president but president trump and pete hagseth said they couldn't do which is take down [15:19] american planes over iranian skies showing that america and israel do not have air dominance there [15:26] colonel warren let me go back to you there's been a lot of discussion about the strait of [15:31] formos president trump and his wednesday night address called on other countries that use the [15:37] strait of formos to reopen it then in a post today he said that if we have a little bit more time the [15:42] u.s can reopen it effectively [15:44] complicated is it to reopen this straight that is so significant to the world's energy so [15:50] it's going to be a highly complicated mission to put it simply right we'll need ships [15:54] we'll need air power you'll need air power over top of that straight 24 hours a day seven days [15:59] a week you'll need to position ships in various locations to keep anything uh from the sea from [16:05] coming in and you'll probably end up having to escort friendly ships through so it is going to [16:10] be a time intensive and a resource intensive operation to try and stop the u.s from taking [16:14] try to get that Strait of Hormuz open. Well, and Court, before we go, I do want to ask you about [16:19] against the backdrop of this war, you reported on a shakeup within the Pentagon, Secretary Hegseth [16:25] firing the top military officer at the DOD. Yeah, I mean, what's so shocking about this is exactly [16:31] what we're talking about right now. The U.S. is in the middle of a war in Iran. And so it's very, [16:35] it's unorthodox for a member of the Joint Chiefs, the Army Chief of Staff, to be fired in the middle [16:41] of the war. The officials we spoke with said it had nothing to do with the war in Iran. We have [16:46] seen that in the past. You'll recall that there have been times where the head of General McKiernan, [16:51] General McChrystal, they were fired when they were running the war in Afghanistan. The difference [16:54] here is this appears to be because of a grudge. This is because Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth [16:59] had a grudge against General George, and he not only fired him, but two other senior generals in [17:05] the U.S. military. And this all comes against the backdrop of some new reporting that we have about [17:10] how Secretary Hegseth is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, [17:11] reaching down into the personnel lists of these general officers and flag officers, the admirals. [17:17] And he seems to be almost line item taking people out who are selected for promotion or selected [17:22] for a new job. And what's concerning officials about it is he seems to be focusing on women and [17:27] black men and taking them off the list. So, you know, the promotion and the personnel system at [17:33] the Pentagon is definitely not running the way that we are used to seeing it. [17:36] Well, it's a story that I know you'll continue to focus on, even as you continue to report [17:40] on the war. We really appreciate it. Courtney, Colonel Warren, thank you so much. Garrett, [17:46] as well as Matt, really appreciate you all starting us off today. Coming up, former Defense Secretary [17:52] Mark Esper will join us on the breaking news in Iran. The urgent search and rescue operation [17:57] still underway. And what it all means for a war the president says he wants to finish in the coming [18:02] weeks. Plus, we'll dig into the economic cost of this war. Gas and oil prices continue to surge. [18:07] But we also got a better than expected job. [18:10] Welcome back. We got a new jobs report today showing that hiring in March actually beat [18:26] expectations, even as the Iran war began escalating. The U.S. added 178,000 jobs last [18:32] month, and the unemployment rate fell to 4.3%. But this jobs report does not capture the full [18:38] brunt of the war, and it comes as the price of oil and gas continue to rise. Joining me now is [18:44] NBC News business and data correspondent Brian Chung. Brian, [18:47] thanks so much for being here with me. Appreciate it. So we are seeing elevated [18:51] oil and gas prices. Let's start right there. What's the latest on that front? [18:56] Yeah, well, the latest that we got in terms of prices that we're paying at the pump, [19:00] $4.09, according to AAA, by the way, that's up 37%, over a full dollar since the beginning of [19:06] this war. In many states, you're already seeing that getting a little bit closer to $5, like on [19:11] the West Coast. But I think the real thing that we have to watch out for here is the rising cost [19:15] of diesel, 5.53%. [19:17] That is going to impact the big rigs that transport goods all across the country. And [19:22] Kristen, based off of my sources, they've been telling me that could be the source of greater [19:26] inflation, because if it gets more expensive to transport food or things at your local retailer, [19:30] well, then that could mean higher price tags for all of those types of things at your store. [19:34] Yeah, that ripple effect. Walk us through this latest jobs report. Beat expectations, [19:40] Brian, but what are the broader implications for how the labor market is doing? [19:44] Yeah, it did beat expectations, but there are a few caveats. [19:47] As you point out, 178,000 jobs added in the month of March. That was well above expectations. [19:52] Economists were only expecting to be around here, 60,000. But they also revised down the numbers [19:58] that we saw in February. The government originally reported 92,000 jobs lost in that month. They took [20:05] a look at those numbers again as a standard practice and said, actually, now that we have [20:08] better data, that February number was a little bit closer to 133,000 jobs lost. So in totality, [20:15] it's essentially a wash and continues this trend. [20:17] End of ups and downs in the jobs market. Economists that I have been hearing from have [20:21] said this is a zero gain jobs market, as it appears right now. It's a low hire, low fire [20:26] environment. Companies don't want to hire people, but they're also not aggressively [20:30] firing people by and large. [20:32] Well, Brian, speaking of highs and lows, the war in Iran is creating uncertainty. Everyone [20:38] acknowledges that. What are you watching in these coming weeks? [20:43] Yeah, well, certainly with this jobs report, a natural question is how is the war impacting [20:46] the labor market? [20:47] Well, I would point out we didn't really see it in this report, A, because the survey [20:51] period was in the beginning of March, really around the early aughts of this war. But also [20:56] it's really inflation where we're going to see any of that impact, again, because of [20:59] higher oil costs and also because of the potential for those costs to bleed into higher airfares, [21:05] higher food prices, higher retail costs. So again, we'll get another report on inflation [21:09] next week. That could be very telling for where the war has impacted us here stateside [21:13] as far as the U.S. economy, Kristen. [21:15] All right, Brian Chung, thank you. [21:17] Thank you so much. Great to see you. Coming up next, back to the breaking news in Iran [21:21] as U.S. forces rush to find the fighter pilot who is still unaccounted for after an American [21:27] F-15 was shot down in enemy territory. Keep it right here on Meet the Press Now. [21:40] Welcome back. And we continue to follow that breaking news out of Iran and the search and [21:44] rescue mission underway after Iran shut down a U.S. fighter jet. It is a significant moment [21:50] in this war. [21:51] And for the White House, with President Trump, President Biden, and President Trump, the [21:52] former White House Deputy Press Secretary, now a wartime president. Joining me now is [21:56] our panel, USA Today, Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page, Chris Maher, former White House [22:01] Deputy Press Secretary, and a former assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs [22:05] during the Biden administration, and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Thanks to all of you [22:11] for being here. We are having this conversation against the backdrop, Susan, of a significant [22:17] moment. Put this into context. Could this be an inflection point? Could this be an inflection [22:22] point in this war? Could it change the course of this war? [22:26] It could. This is not the developments that the president signaled in his address to [22:30] the nation when he said that Iran's capabilities of doing just the sort of thing they have [22:35] now done had been decimated. Clearly, they've been degraded, but not decimated yet. So it [22:43] shows what the costs and potential costs of this war, beyond simply driving up gas prices, [22:49] and that could be part of Trump's calculation on what the United States is going to do in [22:50] this war. [22:52] Matt, we haven't heard from President Trump yet. Give me your reaction to that. When do [22:59] you anticipate we might hear from him? And do you see this as a moment that could really [23:06] shape the president's desire, as he laid out this Wednesday, to extract the United States [23:13] from Iran? He said that the United States effectively was going to continue its attacks [23:17] for the next two to three weeks. He didn't give a firm timeline, but he did signal he'd [23:22] like to be out by then. [23:23] If he was planning de-escalating the war, I felt like that time, Wednesday night, was [23:28] the time to say it, really to actually give a firm thing, because all it really did was [23:34] roil the markets a little more. So I expect, honestly, even regardless of this very tense [23:40] situation with the shot down plane, I expect this to escalate before it de-escalates. Do [23:46] we go into Karg Island? Do we escalate a bombing campaign? I thought the general in your first [23:51] block, his context was actually very clear. [23:51] Yeah. [23:51] Yeah. [23:52] Yeah. [23:52] It's very important around how many sorties we've actually run. And this is, it's not, [23:57] doesn't make the scenario better, but the fact that this was the first such incident I thought [24:01] was notable. But again, I expect this to escalate and essentially really degrade this before we [24:07] de-escalate. [24:08] Chris, how do you see this playing out? [24:10] Yeah, I think on one hand, right, we've flown 10,000 sorties or something like that. This [24:15] is one of the few incidents, if not the only incident involving an aircraft, even though [24:19] there have been a couple more today as well, where people, you know, they've been, you [24:22] people, it sounds like, are safe. On the other hand, it's a reminder to the American people [24:26] that we don't want to be there in the first place. The vast majority of Americans disagree with [24:32] the actions that the administration has taken. They're already feeling the pain at the pump. [24:38] They've already heard about the 13 men and women who have lost their lives. [24:42] Now there's a plane being shot down. It just feels like it adds to the chaos [24:46] around this whole situation. Susan, pick up on that point, if you would, [24:51] because if you look at the polls, as Chris is saying, this war is unpopular. The vast majority [24:55] of Americans say they don't like it, even though Republicans still largely unified behind the [25:00] president on this. You see those numbers, 60% disapprove in Reuters and YouGov. Do you think [25:07] President Trump took a step toward winning over any of those skeptics? I thought that was one of [25:12] his goals of the speech. It was the kind of speech you usually give on day one of a military action, [25:16] not on day 33. But we know from the polling that he has a really, [25:21] really hard task here. You know, there was a Reuters poll that showed that two-thirds of [25:26] Americans thought we should end the war, even if we didn't reach all our goals. And that included [25:31] 40% of Republicans. It shows the kind of appetite that Americans have to do whatever we're going to [25:37] do and to get out. Matt, I want to play a little bit of Joe Rogan's podcast, who, with Theo Vaughn, [25:44] extremely popular with the MAGA base. They were discussing the war this week. Take a look. [25:49] What do you think is going to happen? You think we're going to be OK? [25:51] I hope so. Of course. I don't know. Do you think about it? [25:55] I'm confused. I can't believe we went to this war. When we started bombing Iran, [25:59] I was like, this can't be true. And what about Lebanon now? [26:01] I know. Israel's invaded Lebanon. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, just f***ing stop it. What do you need? [26:11] Matt, how significant is that the polling shows the MAGA-based Republicans still largely unified [26:16] behind the president? But those are significant voices who a lot of Republicans follow. [26:22] I've seen normal people, too. But I don't think they're... [26:25] I don't think they're going to drive either the White House's thinking on this or even [26:27] to some extent the MAGA base on this. If you were to ask me a month ago, I would have said this was [26:32] driven, the kind of the tension in the base was driven by, for lack of a better term, the Israel [26:37] haters, right? It was Tucker Carlson and the people where they're trying to... They have another [26:42] agenda here. There is more skepticism in the base, especially when it comes to the funding. We've [26:45] seen some numbers put out today and throughout the week of $200 billion, $1.5 trillion of what [26:50] the defense costs will be for the war and then also going forward. I will say this. I think, [26:55] in some respects, the polls could be freeing to him because, look, if you are already out of [26:59] Nadir, essentially, just keep going and actually end this once and for all because you're not going [27:05] to get 50% to support this war. There's also the theory that if you've dug a hole, you're in a [27:09] hole. Stop digging. Stop digging. Yeah, that would be the alternative theory. I would say this, [27:13] though. I would say this. If you pull out without achieving the goals, the problem will fester. [27:18] There will be, again, whatever happens in Iran. I think what you saw in that video is [27:25] reporters of Donald Trump who heard him say, we're going to end the war on Ukraine on day one. [27:30] We're going to bring down costs on day one. We're going to get out of these forever wars [27:34] right away. Instead, we're still, Ukraine war is still going on. Prices are going up. [27:40] And we're getting deeper, more deeply involved in the Middle East, in Venezuela, [27:45] potentially with Cuba. He's doing the exact opposite of everything he promised on the [27:50] campaign. Respond to that very quickly. Look, I think that is a challenge. I think that's why [27:54] they need a story on affordability. [27:55] And you saw good job support today, but they need to keep telling that story. [27:58] The more we get into Iran, even though it's worthy, can take away from that. [28:02] All right. Fantastic conversation. Please stick around. We have a lot more. But [28:05] right now, I do want to bring in former Secretary of Defense during President Trump's first term, [28:11] Mark Esper. Secretary Esper, thank you so much for joining me on this really critical [28:16] day. I want to start off by getting your reaction to the fact that Iran was able to shoot down [28:21] a U.S. F-15 fighter jet. What are the implications? [28:25] For that, not just in terms of Iran's air defense capabilities, but also in terms of the broader [28:31] war? Well, first of all, good to be with you, Kristen. Look, I'm glad to see that, of course, [28:37] we rescued the pilot. That's great news. But of course, we have now the other officers out there [28:43] somewhere, we assume hiding, trying to escape and evade from the Iranian guards who are trying to [28:49] chase him or her down and capture him. Obviously, it's significant that an American aircraft was [28:55] shot down in light of what the president said the other night with regard to how devastated or what [29:01] other verb he used to describe their air defenses. But clearly, they have some capabilities still, [29:07] and not just with air defense, but with ballistic missiles and drones and other things that we've [29:10] heard about here in the last 24, 48 hours. So, of course, our thoughts and prayers are with this [29:15] airman who's out there. And it's very important that we find that pilot and retrieve them, [29:24] because obviously, if the Iranians, [29:25] if the Iranians get that person, it could be a significant political chip in this conflict. [29:29] Absolutely. Everyone, I think it's safe to say, hoping, praying for that pilot's safe return. [29:35] Mr. Secretary, what are the implications of this moment for the trajectory of this war? President [29:42] Trump, when he spoke on Wednesday, signaled that he wanted to wind this war down in a matter of [29:48] weeks. Could this moment complicate that timeline? Probably so. It becomes, again, if this [29:57] airman is captured and taken hostage, it adds another wrinkle to the negotiation [30:01] that has to be worked out. And, of course, we don't know which way this is going to play more [30:05] broadly. You often think about the famous Somalia Mogadishu with Black Hawk down, where the downing [30:12] of an American aircraft there changed the nature of the battle on the ground. The question is, [30:17] will this change the nature of the war between the U.S., Israel, and Iran? It's hard to say. [30:22] Or it could be, you know, not have a... [30:27] Only time is going to tell with regard to whether we get the airman back or not. That's significant. [30:32] If the Iranians do, then how do they manage that hostage? Do they take the person hostage? How do [30:38] they treat them? Do they parade them out there politically to mock the United States? A lot's [30:42] going to depend on how they treat that individual also. [30:45] Secretary Esper, take us inside your understanding. You have served with President Trump during his [30:52] first administration. What are the conversations that you anticipate are unfolding [30:57] right now? Do you think that there is significant discussion about a potential retaliation? [31:04] I would assume, I would hope right now that every level of the chain of command from the president [31:08] on down to the unit that these officers were in are focused on rescuing that remaining airman who's [31:15] out there. And I assume that that is the focus, 100 percent, finding that person, getting them, [31:21] rescuing them, and recovering them as quickly as possible before the Iranians get their arms [31:25] around them. So to me, that should be the focus right now. Everything else, [31:28] can be sorted out later with regard to retaliation or whatever else you want to do. But right now, [31:32] recovering that individual is the key thing. And your understanding of the extent to which [31:39] and the way in which these pilots are trained for this very moment, when the worst happens, [31:45] this pilot, if this pilot is still alive, undoubtedly fighting for their life. [31:52] Yes, they all go through a Siri training, survival, evasion, resistance, and escape training. [31:56] And it's a very demanding, extensive training. [31:59] Of course, built for just these situations. And so right now, they're in the survival and the [32:04] evade mode, trying to stay away from the Iranians. And of course, they have on them the ability to [32:11] communicate and defend themselves, but really communicate with higher headquarters to signal [32:16] their location and arrange the pickup as that moment approaches. So right now, that is the [32:22] focus, I'm sure, of that individual on the ground, is get to a safe space, somewhere where they won't [32:27] be found. If they could be found, maybe they could be found. If they could be found, maybe they could [32:29] defend themselves, but really wait them out. It's darkness now in Iran. So that helps, in many [32:35] ways, the recovery of this downed pilot and for us to get to that pilot sooner rather than later. [32:43] And as we're having this conversation, Secretary Esper, I was just handed a little bit more [32:47] information about what has unfolded today. This comes to us, according to our team, [32:53] including Courtney Kuby, who reports in total, Iran has caused two military aircraft to crash. [33:00] The F-15 and an A-10 and two Black Hawk helicopters in a single day, less than 48 hours after President [33:07] Trump said in his primetime address that Iran has been completely decimated. Again, one of the pilots, [33:14] the one in the initial F-15 that was hit, has been rescued, is alive. They continue to search for the [33:20] second one. Big picture, Mr. Secretary. President Trump has said he thinks that Iran wants to make [33:27] a deal. Does this moment? [33:30] Could this moment complicate any diplomatic negotiations if there are any, in fact, happening? [33:37] I'd say two things. First of all, the United States military has clearly made great progress [33:41] in terms of achieving its objectives. And Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Dan [33:45] Kane has laid them out with regard to degrading the Navy, degrading the Air Force, going after [33:49] the ballistic missiles, drones, production capabilities, and talking about the nuclear [33:53] infrastructure, although it's something we've heard a lot less of this time around. [33:57] That said, while great progress has made over the, what, four or five weeks now, [34:01] and over 11,000 plus sorties, what has transpired here in the last 24 hours for sure, and certainly [34:08] over the last few weeks as Iran continues to launch a couple dozen ballistic missiles and [34:13] several dozen drones each day toward Israel and their Arab partners, is that they still have [34:18] capability. And not just capability, they still have a willingness to fight. And so what that [34:23] tells me now, zooming out to the second question you've asked, Kristen, is I believe the regime [34:28] feels emboldened and that they're not going to roll over anytime soon. [34:31] They seem to have suppressed the people well enough that they're not afraid of any uprising. [34:36] And there doesn't appear to be any fractures within the government itself or the IRGC. We had, [34:41] of course, the DNI say this just a couple weeks ago or a week and a half ago on Capitol Hill. [34:46] So in my mind, they feel strong, they feel emboldened, that they've taken the brunt of [34:52] American-Israeli tax. And I just assume that the shootdown of American aircraft today will [34:57] embolden them further. I hope I'm wrong, because it's very, [35:01] very important that we gain the upper hand here, retain the upper hand and achieve all of our [35:06] objectives. And it's, again, war is a contest of wills. And the question is, who will hold out [35:10] the longest? Well, you take me to my next question, because if you listen to the president's [35:15] address to the nation this Wednesday, one aspect of this that he did not speak to specifically was [35:23] whether or not he plans to put U.S. forces on the ground inside Iran. Do you think this moment will [35:31] be likely? Because we know that he's mobilized tens of thousands of U.S. troops in the region. [35:36] Does this increase the chances that he may, in fact, send U.S. forces into Iran? [35:41] I think it's too early to say, Kristen. Look, I think the president's right by not taking that [35:47] option off the table. And I think he's right by deploying forces to the region to give him [35:51] options. I think that's the duty, as I always thought, my duty to give the president as many [35:56] options as possible. I think the time to tell will be April 6th, which is the deadline he gave for [36:02] him to come back and agree to his demands. That's option one. Or number two, he may extend the [36:09] deadline. Or three, maybe he just declares victory and pulls U.S. forces out of the region. But to me, [36:15] April 6th, this upcoming Monday, will be the date by which we have a little bit more clarity on which [36:19] path he chooses. Secretary Esper, we really appreciate your insights today. Thank you so [36:25] much for being here. Thanks, Kristen. Coming up next, the very latest installment of our [36:31] Common Ground series, the co-chairs of the Problem Solvers Caucus, [36:34] speak out on their efforts to try to solve the biggest problem plaguing Capitol Hill right now. [36:39] That's the longest partial government shutdown in U.S. history. That's next on Meet the Press Now. [36:46] Welcome back. Turning now to the still ongoing shutdown of the Department of Homeland Security. [36:59] House Speaker Mike Johnson says he has no plans to bring back his members early from recess to [37:04] pass a DHS funding bill sent over by the Senate. That plan would fund all of DHS except for ICE [37:10] and Border Patrol, which Republican leaders say will be the most important. [37:12] They would try to fund through a reconciliation process, meaning only with Republican votes at a [37:17] later date. In the latest installment of our Common Ground series, I spoke earlier this week to the [37:22] bipartisan co-chairs of the House Problem Solvers Caucus, who've been working on a proposal to break [37:29] the DHS gridlock. Democrat Tom Suozzi of New York and Republican Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania [37:34] tell me they would both vote for the Senate's bill to fund DHS, but that if that fails to, [37:40] but that it fails to address reform, [37:42] it's going to have to go back to immigration and customs enforcement, something they say [37:46] their proposal solves. Here's our conversation. Congressman Suozzi, talk to us about your [37:54] proposal, why you think the Problem Solvers proposal is actually better than the other [37:59] options that have been presented so far. And then Congressman Fitzpatrick, I'll get your perspective. [38:05] You know, right now it's Brian and my proposal. We haven't gotten the full endorsement of the [38:08] Problem Solvers yet, but the bottom line is, is that we should fund the government and we should [38:14] make ICE the same as other federal law enforcement agencies like the FBI and the DEA and the Alcohol, [38:20] Tobacco and Firearms Bureau. And that involves things like body cameras, like not wearing masks, but [38:27] protecting officers, law enforcement from doxing, cooperating with state and local governments when [38:33] you investigate use of force, proper training. Even local police, but certainly federal police, [38:38] federal law enforcement agencies have six months of training. ICE has 47 days of training. And other [38:44] agencies have more than 12 hours. And that's why they are so important to us. [38:48] I let Brian speak to it as a former FBI agent for 15 years. But I also was the county executive of Nassau County. I oversaw the 12th-largest police department in the United States of America. There are certain things that every law enforcement agency in America does. ICE should be held to that same standard. [39:02] All right, Congressman Fitzpatrick, your perspective. Why do you think this is the right path to take? [39:09] back to the basics of what law enforcement is law enforcement is a social contract [39:14] it is a delegation of the power that resides with the people as all power does in this country and [39:19] they delegate that to law enforcement to law enforcement institutions agencies and law [39:24] enforcement officers and anytime that social contract is frayed if there's not mutual trust [39:31] mutual respect mutual cooperation then we have to fix that social contract and certainly you know [39:37] following the tragedies in minneapolis that social contract has been frayed so we have to [39:42] work to fix it what do we do to fix it to tom's point we start with simplicity every single [39:48] federal law enforcement agency ought to comport to the same standards when it comes to body cameras [39:52] when it comes to training when it comes to independent investigations of any use of force [39:57] by federal agents uh when it comes to um you know removing of mass when it comes to penalizing [40:04] doxing in exchange for the removal of masks obviously there's exceptions [40:07] for for those rules um you know all of that should be standardized and you know i i was an [40:15] agent for 15 years uh i never once wore a mask when executing the the hundreds of search warrants [40:22] and arrest warrants that i executed now there are exception exceptional cases if you're going after [40:27] cartels or or something like that but the baseline rule has to be no masks um because masks are a [40:34] barrier between the police and the public and and policing is a major [40:38] social contract and we can't have barriers like that well congressman swazi let me have you pick [40:44] up on that point because the white house did offer up some areas where they were willing to negotiate [40:50] body cameras for example now look their proposal did not include barring ice agents wearing masks [40:58] but do you think your senate democratic colleagues made a mistake by not engaging on those initial [41:04] points and then trying to get more down the line well listen i don't want to second guess what they [41:09] did in the senate they've been trying to do their negotiations i just think we as an institution [41:13] both the senate and the house have failed to try and find some common ground to try and move forward [41:19] like we have with so many other issues i think the people are sick and tired of what's going on in [41:23] washington dc they're sitting at home and they're like you know what are you doing to affect my life [41:29] in a positive way and they see costs going up through the roof they see the stuff on television [41:34] we saw the lines in the airports getting a little bit better right now we see all these different [41:39] we need the members of congress and the senate in that democrats and the republicans to get [41:45] together to actually do our jobs to actually solve the problems that affect real people's lives [41:50] well congressman fitzpatrick let me ask you because you announced this effort to find a [41:53] bipartisan solution before we saw that breakdown in negotiations on friday do you have any concerns [41:59] that your proposal doesn't actually match where your party is right now in terms of what it's [42:04] willing to negotiate on it matches where the people are at and that's all i care about [42:11] tom and i both represent roughly 800 000 people they are our bosses we don't report to any person [42:17] any party uh in washington dc so you know i would think the party would follow that both parties [42:24] would follow what tom and i are doing by the way we're to his point we are the only proposal that [42:28] actually reforms ice this whole thing was supposed to be about reforming ice uh post the tragedies [42:33] in minneapolis and yet not the democrat discharge that's at the desk of the uh house clerk not the [42:41] republican bill that was put forth in the house not the bipartisan bill that was put forth in the [42:45] senate not a single one of them have a single ice reform and i think people just got caught up in [42:50] the fog of war and they forgot what this was all supposed to be about which is fully funding our [42:54] government and fixing that social contract that currently is frayed between immigration and [43:01] customs enforcement and the public so i have to ask both of you do you believe that both parties [43:08] bear some blame in what is now the longest partial [43:11] government shutdown in u.s history congressman swazi let me start with you absolutely i mean [43:18] there's a lot enough blame to go around for everybody we need people to be working together [43:23] more to get things done to try and solve the problems that we face and as as brian said what [43:29] we saw out in minneapolis was probably illegal but certainly immoral and uh is a breakdown in [43:37] the relationship between the public and law enforcement and we have an obligation as elected [43:42] officials to try and fix that and not let this continue where the administration can just do [43:49] whatever they want and there's no response from congress so uh i'm willing to give a little bit [43:55] brian's willing to give a little bit and i think a lot of members of congress want this i think they [43:59] all want something done it's just that there are so many uh systemic problems and toxicity in [44:06] washington dc right now that even good people that want to get the right thing done are not stepping [44:13] into this and i think that's what we need to be doing congressman fitzpatrick what say you to that [44:18] question does everyone bear some responsibility for what is now the longest partial government [44:23] shutdown in u.s history absolutely uh the literal definition of governing in a democracy requires [44:32] building consensus that's how it's defined and yet we have a lot of people in both chambers from [44:37] both parties quite frankly who are not trying to see the world through the other person's eyes who [44:43] are not approaching problems with humility and empathy [44:45] and trying to find common ground instead they're taking a my way or the highway approach [44:50] that's not governing and that's not a democracy uh and that's certainly not consensus building [44:54] that approach doesn't work in our personal relationships it doesn't work in our homes it [44:58] doesn't work in our businesses and it sure as heck doesn't work in government um so that's what tom [45:03] and i um believe in we believe in consensus building you know he and i you know approach [45:09] problems from different angles but we respect each other as human beings we try to see the world [45:13] through the other person's perspective [45:15] and we try to find the points of intersection where we can agree that's what governing is [45:19] supposed to be about i want to ask both of you about oh please go ahead congressman swazi [45:25] we have to look at the what are the factors that are dividing us in our country right now too many [45:29] elected officials in these safe seats are just pandering to their base the republicans in the [45:33] far right the democrats of the far left social media is rewarding extremism a lot of the cable [45:38] news shows are just feeding one side of the story and our foreign adversaries are trying to promote [45:45] what they believe is congressional inaction by using our social media to promote divisive [45:50] messages saying one message to this group and another message to that group just to get us to [45:54] all hate each other we have to rise above the systemic problems and start fight figuring out [45:59] how to actually serve the people and i do have one final question for both of you what is your [46:05] message to americans who are frustrated with what they believe is congressional inaction across all [46:12] of these issues that we are discussing in both chambers which are in recess right now in the [46:15] right now congressman fitzpatrick let me let you take that one first yes uh they should uh ask [46:21] their member of congress who represents them and their united states senator who represents their [46:25] state whether they are members of the problem solvers caucus which tom and i lead that believe [46:30] in mutual respect mutual cooperation finding common ground and if they're not encourage them [46:36] to join and if they refuse to join ask them why that is the case because like i said governing [46:41] in a democracy is all about building consensus our group is the only two-party group [46:46] in congress uh you have a continuum of caucuses within congress we're the only ones where [46:51] democrats and republicans meet every single week when we're in washington dc to try to see the world [46:56] through the other person's eyes we're the only ones who travel together um you know we build [47:01] relationships with each other's families that's what's important uh now more than ever so that [47:06] would be my my request to every citizen in this country congressman swazi final word to you [47:13] if i was speaking directly to the american people i'd say don't underestimate how powerful [47:17] you are right now so many people are not participating in primary elections so many [47:23] people are not participating in general elections we need you our democracy will only work if the [47:29] public is is involved uh to the extent that we need them if it's just the far left and the far [47:34] right and they're controlling the conversation and they're putting in all the energy and the [47:38] big block of 50 of the public and somewhere in the middle is saying ah the whole thing stinks [47:43] i don't like it i'm politically disenchanted politically disengaged i don't like it [47:47] then we end up with this gridlock that we have we need to hold the elected officials accountable [47:52] the only people who can do it is the people all right congressman tom swazi and brian fitzpatrick [47:57] thanks to both of you for your time and for a great conversation we really appreciate it [48:03] thank you all right we do want to turn back now to the breaking news on the war [48:09] with iran and recap what we've just learned that in total iran has hit [48:13] four u.s aircraft today first that f-15 fighter jet that was shot down and then three aircraft that [48:19] involved in the search and rescue efforts one of those was an a-10 thunderbolt that pilot was [48:25] able to make it to kuwaiti airspace and ejected safely before the aircraft crashed so iran has [48:31] caused two u.s military aircraft to crash today back with me now is the panel susan page chris [48:37] meyer and matt gorman thank you all for sticking around susan your reaction to this and what it [48:44] means and the implications for president trump's claim that they have destabilized [48:49] iranian defense aircraft yes according to the president they did iran didn't have the [48:53] capabilities to cause the crash of two aircraft in one day this is a really sobering development [48:59] and i think it increases the possibility that he will president trump will feel the need to [49:05] retaliate um and that could be an escalation of this war even though we know from his speech on [49:12] wednesday night he would like to bring it to a close matt how is he going to square that if he [49:17] does feel compelled to retaliate [49:19] retaliate in this moment makes it a lot tougher to try to withdraw u.s forces within two to three [49:25] weeks certainly and i think that could be the pretext for for staying longer and just you know [49:29] of course we don't know what happens with this with the service member who is missing is there [49:33] some sort of actually on the ground rescue operation i remember back in the early days of [49:37] iraq we had jessica lynch we had to actually go on the ground and rescue her in april of 2003 those [49:43] early days of that war again i think this will be a pretext probably to escalate i don't think [49:48] i don't think he was heading there that [49:49] that this way anyway i think this really cements it chris i thought it was notable that secretary [49:55] esper said he believes this is a moment where iran feels emboldened what are the implications [50:01] of that having served in the biden administration you dealt with iran obviously yeah and their proxy [50:07] groups which still have capabilities as well you know we're talking about an f-15 which is [50:12] not a commercial airliner this is a very capable uh jet goes 1500 miles an hour you know it it is [50:20] hard to take down and i think iran is is proving a point uh today by taking down this aircraft that [50:26] they're not done yet same goes with the strait of hormuz it's easy to talk about oh we're just going [50:31] to reopen it you know the the the rhetoric that you hear from the trump admin administration is [50:35] like we just snap our fingers and we get this stuff done iran showed today it's not going to [50:40] be quite that easy so it's up to donald trump to decide what's next why should iran negotiate [50:46] why should iran make right compromises uh [50:50] states when it's feeling that it's done this remarkable thing today and yet matt president [50:55] trump has said iran wants to negotiate iranian officials have said hey wait a minute there are [51:00] no direct negotiations do you think this moment undercuts any hopes as susan's saying for the [51:06] possibility of a negotiated settlement at the risk of being reductive you can't sell your way out of [51:11] this you have to fight your way out of this essentially if that if that's what the actual [51:14] end goal is and and again i think trump has i wasn't outlined what his goals are is degrading [51:19] the iranian [51:20] and nuclear capability of course and if that's the case you know you can't sell [51:24] can't really even cut a deal if iran's not rand's not willing to do that yeah then you have to [51:28] escalate and again even before the speech but again certainly in light of this it seems like [51:32] all signs point to that one of the big questions chris is will president trump send u.s forces into [51:39] iran you heard the defense secretary say it's an outstanding question still is that when you think [51:44] democrats would move to try to i mean they've tried to block this war already but is there [51:49] anything [51:50] the democrats or congress could do at that moment [51:54] congress members of congress on the hill have not shown much of the backbone yet [52:00] there's limited capabilities for democratic members of congress other than the microphone [52:05] i hope that they would speak out loud and clear here if donald trump puts boots on the ground [52:11] puts those troops who are already in harm's way by even being deployed to the middle east in [52:16] the first place if he puts them on the ground in iran that is going to be a [52:20] major political game changer back here domestically in a bad way for donald trump all right guys thank [52:25] you for a great conversation and a very significant day susan chris and matt we really [52:30] appreciate it thank you we will be back monday with more meet the press now [52:34] and if it's sunday it's meet the press on your local mbc news station i'll have exclusive [52:39] interviews with senator tim kaine congressman mike lawler and congressman ro khanna there's much more [52:45] ahead on nbc chatter [52:46] news now [52:51] we thank you for watching and remember stay updated on breaking news i'm jamie bullis and we'll see you tomorrow нww n 2015. 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