Meet the Press full broadcast — Sept. 10

[0:00] This Sunday, future of the party. [0:04] If I win and somebody wants to run against me, I call my attorney general, I say, listen, indict him. [0:12] The Republican Party is at a crossroads. [0:14] Will we be the party of conservatism or will we follow the siren song of populism unmoored to conservative principles? [0:25] Will the GOP back Donald Trump's return to power or find a new path forward? [0:29] I'll talk to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, one of the seven Republicans who voted to convict Donald Trump. [0:36] Plus, backing Biden, my wide-ranging interview with California's Democratic governor, Gavin Newsom. [0:42] Why do you think only 24% of Americans want to see Biden run again? [0:46] To me, the polls mean nothing until we get out there and we make our case. [0:50] His thoughts on this party, the 2024 election, and his own presidential ambitions. [0:55] I think we need to move past this notion that he's not going to run. [0:58] President Biden is going to run. [1:00] Time to move on. Let's go. [1:03] And gerontocracy. [1:05] As questions grow about their fitness for office, America's aging leaders refuse to exit the stage. [1:11] I'm going to finish my term as leader and I'm going to finish my senator. [1:15] I've made my decision in favor of winning. [1:17] Why are Washington's octogenarians ignoring the call from voters who believe they are too old to serve? [1:23] Joining me for insight and analysis on NBC News senior political editor Mark Murray. [1:27] Amy Walter, editor-in-chief of The Cook Political Report. [1:31] Democratic pollster Cornel Belcher. [1:33] And Daniel Plekka of the American Enterprise Institute. [1:37] Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press. [1:42] From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. [1:47] This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. [1:49] Good Sunday morning. [1:54] As you may have heard, after nine years and more than 430 broadcasts, today is my final Sunday in the moderator chair. [2:01] To say that this has been the honor and privilege of my lifetime is an understatement. [2:06] This is simply the pinnacle of political journalism and something my younger self never imagined. [2:11] No matter how much of a grind the current political climate is wearing me down on any given day, I still always have a, have had a pinch me, I can't believe it feeling every time I hear my name introduced as the moderator of the longest running show in the history of television. [2:26] In fact, I used to joke, my goal is not to be the last moderator of the longest running show in American history. [2:34] And I've achieved that goal. [2:35] And then some, I look forward to passing the baton in about 57 minutes. [2:41] But in the meantime, we've put together a terrific program with a focus, or at least we're going to try to, on the future of both political parties. [2:48] And the guests we have today, California Governor Gavin Newsom and Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, are two I specifically wanted for my last show because I think these two elected officials have a healthy respect for you, the viewers and the voters. [3:00] They aren't afraid of answering any question on any platform, on any network, by any person. [3:06] They accept the premise of a healthy democracy, which is that elected officials take a stand and then come on shows where they get questioned for their rationales and defend it. [3:18] I'm a skeptic by nature, which also makes me inquisitive by nature. [3:22] And it's in that spirit that I think Meet the Press is the standard bearer when it comes to educating viewers and asking the relevant questions that you want asked. [3:30] So as I prepare to sign off, it's interesting that both parties find themselves at a crossroads. [3:35] Many leaders in both parties desperately want to start looking towards the future. [3:39] But as you know, both parties are stuck in the present, and the voters are exhausted by it. [3:44] For the Republicans, the issue is Trump and Trumpism. [3:46] Does it belong in the past? [3:48] Well, at an event on Friday night in South Dakota where he was endorsed by Governor Kristi Noem, Trump made it clear he does not intend to leave it there. [3:56] If I win and somebody wants to run against me, I call my attorney general and I say, listen, indict him. [4:03] Well, he hasn't done anything wrong that we know of. [4:08] I don't know. [4:08] Indict him on income tax evasion. [4:10] You'll figure it out. [4:12] The Republicans in the Senate and the Republicans in the House cannot let this go on. [4:17] For the Democrats, the issue, of course, is Biden's age. [4:21] In a CNN poll this week, nearly 7 in 10 Democrats said the party should nominate, quote, a different candidate than Joe Biden. [4:27] And it was the biggest concern among 49 percent of all Democrats. [4:32] The biggest concern was Biden's age. [4:33] Overall, just 28 percent of Americans say Biden inspires confidence. [4:37] That's down 24 points from two years ago when he was just four months into his presidency. [4:42] This week, the Biden campaign released an ad highlighting his surprise visit to Ukraine in February. [4:47] A not so subtle argument that he is physically up to the jobs. [4:52] A nearly 40 hour journey in and out of Ukraine. [4:56] President Biden left Washington, D.C. at 4 a.m. on Sunday. [4:59] He landed in eastern Poland and then took a nine and a half hour train to Kiev. [5:04] In the middle of a war zone, Joe Biden showed the world what America is made of. [5:09] That's the quiet strength of a true leader. [5:13] Well, joining me now is Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. [5:16] Senator Cassidy, welcome back to Meet the Press. [5:18] Chuck, thank you. [5:18] And thank you for the honor of being on your last show. [5:21] Well, I appreciate that. [5:21] I'm going to start, actually, with some of the news of the week, even on Friday, with the announcement by the former Speaker of the House that she's going to seek re-election and she's in her 80s. [5:32] I want to start with a quote you gave a couple of years ago on this issue to Axios. [5:36] Here's the exchange. [5:39] The Speaker of the House is 81. [5:42] Wisdom comes with age. [5:43] But the science is also clear that we aren't who we were, that we do lose things with age as a medical professional. [5:53] Is that something we should be thinking about? [5:55] Of course. [5:56] At some point, and statistically it's in the 80s, you begin a more rapid decline. [6:01] It's usually noticeable. [6:03] So anybody in a position of responsibility who may potentially be on that slope, that is of concern. [6:10] And I'm saying this as a doctor. [6:12] I also want to clarify, you made it clear you were not judging any specific person there. [6:16] You were making a generalization. [6:18] What's interesting there, this is before we were debating Mitch McConnell, before we were debating Joe Biden and all of this. [6:23] Does that still hold for you? [6:24] Absolutely. [6:25] By the way, I think Mitch McConnell's handled it perfectly. [6:27] His doctor is releasing not just the test, but the results of the test. [6:31] And with that, there is a transparency that allows people to move beyond a number, how old is the person, [6:37] into what is actually the kind of science, if you will, the medical science of how to evaluate. [6:42] And I think that should be the standard that folks are held to, and I think he's responded. [6:47] You feel like you've got enough information from Senator McConnell? [6:50] You do? [6:51] I mean, you feel like you're getting an honest assessment here? [6:54] I do. [6:54] Okay. [6:55] The doctor is not lying. [6:57] He's saying these are the tests that we've done and this is the results we have. [7:00] By the way, I also have the advantage of seeing not just a clip of him during 20 seconds, but him before and him after. [7:06] And there he's quite clearly... [7:08] What do you make of Senator Rand Paul's questioning? [7:10] He's not questioning McConnell, but he's questioning the doctor's diagnosis. [7:13] Well, you know, I always say that I'm a gastroenterologist. [7:16] He's an ophthalmologist. [7:18] We're not the internist who's doing the physical exam guiding. [7:21] And so you have to accept the limitations of training. [7:24] What do you think... [7:26] How do you think we should address this? [7:28] The voters clearly have said one thing. [7:31] And you have this... [7:32] I mean, look, I get it. [7:34] It's always hard to let go at the very end. [7:36] Trust me. [7:36] I'm aware of this myself. [7:38] But what do you think is the driver here? [7:41] Shouldn't there be transparency? [7:43] Shouldn't President Biden, for example, release a full kind of neurologic evaluation of his cognitive ability? [7:50] And whomever else. [7:51] You pick the person that you've had... [7:53] You want Mitch McConnell to do this? [7:54] You want Joe Biden to do this? [7:55] You want all of them to do this? [7:56] Do what Mitch just did. [7:58] There was total transparency. [8:00] And so if somebody running for that kind of high office... [8:02] I don't know if it's been full transparency and fairness. [8:04] It's a letter from a doctor. [8:05] I mean, we don't know. [8:06] We just know what this one doctor has said. [8:07] No, he said... [8:08] Well, at some point you have to say, okay, wait a second. [8:11] He said he had an EEG, an MRI, and this, and that, and that, and this, and they're all normal. [8:15] That's pretty good. [8:17] Now, you may decide that the doctor is lying. [8:18] Right. [8:19] But at some point you have to have faith in somebody. [8:21] And I think somebody who's out of politics, being honest, giving you the results of the test is a good start. [8:27] It's one thing that voters should demand this. [8:29] Is it something that should be in the Constitution? [8:32] Well, I don't know about the Constitution, but I think it should be certainly a House rule. [8:37] Well, we have House rules that get violated all the time, though. [8:39] I agree with that. [8:40] Yeah. [8:43] I would be okay with that. [8:45] I think if you want to be the President of the United States, or a Senator, or a House member, [8:50] then there is a responsibility over and above that of just offering yourself. [8:55] It has to be that you can show that you have clarity. [8:58] Now, we could define what that means. [8:59] Wouldn't it be nice to say, show us your tax returns and show us your medical records? [9:03] Is that the way you think it would be, almost standardize both of those things? [9:06] I actually think that that would be reasonable, too. [9:08] Yeah. [9:08] Because if the voter is going to make a decision, we need to give her as much information as we possibly can. [9:14] All right. [9:15] Let's talk about the other craziness that this month may bring us. [9:17] It seems as if Speaker McCarthy is essentially trying to use dangle impeachment to stop a shutdown. [9:23] I feel like you guys in the Senate Republicans are going, what are you guys thinking? [9:26] What is your reaction to this strategy? [9:28] You know, you're guessing what's in his mind. [9:31] I will not go there. [9:32] Fair enough. [9:34] He's got a difficult role to play, and I accept that, too. [9:38] Now, if you treat each of those separately, would there be a reasonable thing that maybe Joe Biden was involved, [9:44] or at least knew of Hunter trading upon the family name for personal enrichment? [9:49] That is something that the American people should know about. [9:51] Is that rise to an impeachment inquiry, or is that simply something the Oversight Committee ought to be doing? [9:55] I'm not an attorney, and I'm not going to go there. [9:57] In fact, and I don't know the results of Congressman Comers, which I think he's doing the service to the country, a good service. [10:03] Okay. [10:04] I've not seen the documents that he wants, and I don't think he's seen them yet. [10:08] So if you treat that separately, is there something where Hunter was trading upon his father's name and his father was enabling? [10:16] That is something to know. [10:17] On the other hand, do we need to pass a funding bill? [10:21] Absolutely. [10:22] So hopefully they, too, can be considered separately. [10:24] I don't know what Kevin's strategy is. [10:25] To go back on the impeachment thing, what you just described is, you know, Michael Kinsley once said, [10:31] in Washington, it's not what's illegal, it's what's legal that is sometimes a crime. [10:38] This stuff's perfectly legal. [10:40] Well, I'm told that there is something of foreign agent rule, [10:43] where somebody who is registered as a foreign agent is not being totally transparent in terms of how they're using this relationship. [10:52] I'm also told it's difficult to enforce. [10:55] Again, I'm not an attorney. [10:56] But there's something about both the spirit and the letter of the law that I think the American people should know. [11:01] Do we think we should have some sort of ethics code for relatives? [11:04] I mean, we think about, you know, every time I hear Hunter Biden, other people say, what about Jared Kushner? [11:08] And I want to say yes. [11:10] I agree with that. [11:10] On the other hand, you can't deny somebody a right to earn a living. [11:15] Right. [11:16] To steal a phrase from another, they're not just a potted plant. [11:20] My wife, for example, doesn't make any money what she's doing, but she's got a career independently of me. [11:24] Do we want to kind of snuff that out? [11:26] And she's an incredibly capable person. [11:28] It is something that many professional couples run into, particularly in this town. [11:32] Let's talk about the future of the party. [11:34] You had been adamant for the last two years. [11:36] When you asked the Trump question, you're like, he's not going to be the nominee. [11:39] He's not going to be the nominee. [11:40] Can you feel that comfortable declaring that now? [11:43] Well, I'll say that I've not been quite so adamant recently. [11:46] Okay. [11:47] So he might be the nominee. [11:49] And I think Mike Pence is trying to draw the contrast. [11:52] Is there a populist future to our country, to our party, to the Republican Party, or is there a non-populist? [11:59] Populism has a role, but I think now, President, the populism has come to the point where, if you look at a poll of the American people, most don't like it. [12:09] You come from a state where populism led to corruption pretty quickly. [12:13] Oh, that's true. [12:13] In its history. [12:14] When I think of Huey Long, Edwin Edwards, you can go through the line. [12:17] Populism goes to corruption fast. [12:18] But think about the purpose of populism. [12:21] When the elites come up with a policy set, which is separate and different from that which the people actually feel meets their needs, [12:27] that has to be addressed. [12:29] And so there is a role for that sensitivity to what the people want. [12:33] I am totally in favor of that. [12:35] What I don't like is when you tell people just what they want to hear, even if it's not true. [12:40] Right. [12:40] You know I've been very focused on Social Security. [12:42] I know, yeah. [12:43] We've got two candidates who are telling the American people that which they wish to hear, not that which is true. [12:48] Because of that, Social Security, if it goes insolvent as it's predicted to, will result in a 24% cut in benefits for those receiving. [12:56] So for a candidate to tell the American people there's no problem, that's populism going awry. [13:02] In February of 2021, you decided that Donald Trump was unfit to ever hold federal office again. [13:08] Your vote to convict said that as much. [13:12] You have answered this question very carefully in the past, which you said you plan to support a Republican. [13:18] If he is the nominee, can you vote for him? [13:21] I know where you are in Biden. [13:22] Can you vote for Trump? [13:23] You know, we're keeping our streak alive. [13:27] Every time we've met, you've asked me about this. [13:29] I understand that. [13:30] Well, it's, I don't know why, why isn't it an easy answer? [13:34] Well, because I'm going to vote for a Republican. [13:35] Yes, I am. [13:36] But you might have to write it in? [13:38] Might have to write it in. [13:39] What about the snow labels? [13:40] You've been showing up at their events. [13:43] You were even said that if, you know, people have pointed out you were once a Democrat. [13:47] So in some ways, you could some, perhaps be somebody they would look to to bridge the divide. [13:52] Is that something that would appeal to you? [13:55] Depending upon who the candidates were. [13:57] We're looking at Biden and Trump. [13:58] Yeah. [13:58] And is that suddenly appealing? [14:00] If they came and spoke to me, I would certainly speak to them back. [14:04] Sounds like you are, are you already speaking with them? [14:06] I am not. [14:07] You're not? [14:07] Is it, but it is something you'd be open to. [14:09] Yes, put it this way. [14:11] 70% of the American people want something different. [14:14] Plausibly, we could have a setting in which someone has been convicted, [14:17] and someone else shows signs of mental decline so significant, [14:22] 70% of the American people are already thinking that he's too old. [14:26] He is not being transparent like some are in terms of reviewing the test. [14:29] There is an actual need to know what's going on and we're not being told. [14:33] With this, should there be another option for the American people? [14:38] And I think plausibly there should be. [14:42] Senator Bill Cassidy, you've lived up to exactly how I build it, [14:46] which is you're never afraid to answer a question even if you don't like it. [14:49] Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. [14:51] Appreciate it. [14:52] When we come back, California Governor Gavin Newsom. [14:54] He rules out his own presidential run in 2024, [14:57] and he offers his vision for how Biden can win. [15:01] I'm serious when I say this. [15:03] A little less time on his age and whether or not he's going to run, [15:06] a little more time on the damn record. [15:10] Welcome back. [15:10] As Democrats worry about the political strength of President Biden, [15:14] speculation has been bubbling up that another Democrat should run instead. [15:17] Well, I traveled to Sacramento earlier this week [15:19] to talk to one of those Democrats in waiting. [15:21] The California Governor Gavin Newsom. [15:23] He is clearly positioning himself to run for president. [15:26] It just may be in 2028 rather than in 2024. [15:30] I began by asking Governor Newsom, [15:32] at the California Governor Manchin, by the way, [15:35] his thoughts about Biden and the future of the Democratic Party. [15:38] Governor, thanks for doing this. [15:40] Good to be back. Good to be with you. [15:42] I appreciate it. [15:43] Let me start. [15:43] It was about a year ago where, right after the Dobbs decision, [15:47] you very publicly, and I'll quote you, [15:49] you're like, where's my party? [15:51] Where's the Democratic Party? [15:52] We're a year later. [15:54] Do you have that same sort of lack of focus and leadership? [15:57] Do you sense it nationally? [15:59] The opposite. [16:00] I think we're on message. [16:01] We're getting back on the offense. [16:03] We're on our feet. [16:04] I think demonstrably that proved itself, [16:07] and not just assertion in the basis of what happened in the midterms. [16:09] We outperformed, I think, our own quiet expectations, [16:12] certainly punditry that was out there at the time. [16:15] No, I think the party's in a much better place than it was back then. [16:19] But I stand by what I said a year and a half ago out of stress and frustration. [16:26] I expressed not only that point of view. [16:28] I tried to do something about it through the iteration of doing ads in other states and making a case. [16:33] You think things are better, in your opinion, because the party did something better, [16:38] or simply the public is just pushing back on this abortion decision and that is motivating voters? [16:44] I think the abortion decision has obviously been galvanized in that respect, [16:47] and it's demonstrably so. [16:48] I mean, you saw with Ohio and what just happened. [16:50] You're seeing it play out in large and small venues, [16:54] including the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, et cetera. [16:57] So, look, it's obviously played an outsized role, but I think we're getting our feet under us. [17:01] I think we focus on democracy and freedom, taking back the mantra of freedom, [17:06] not submitting to the other side that they own patriotism. [17:10] The president's developing his message and strategy, and we have the opportunity in the next few months. [17:15] Do you feel like you see it? [17:16] I mean, do you feel like you know what the second-term agenda is? [17:18] I don't know about the second-term agenda, [17:20] because we're still regaling in the extraordinary success of the last few years, [17:25] of which we now get to apply the principles and advance a lot of what has been asserted, [17:31] meaning make real the commitments we've made through these landmark legislative packages. [17:35] But beyond that, I think the fundamental messaging has improved. [17:41] The organized framework that the ads that they've put out, the last five ads, [17:46] I think have been spot on. [17:47] And now we have got to go out and campaign, [17:49] and I think you're going to see that over the next few months. [17:51] Why do you think only 24% of Americans want to see Biden running? [17:55] I don't, to me, the polls mean nothing until we get out there and we make our case. [17:59] And we've got to make our case. [18:00] We've got to focus on the issues and then, obviously, a framework of contrast. [18:03] You're well aware of how perception can become reality. [18:05] Why do you think this perception is there? [18:07] I'll leave it to more objective minds. [18:09] I don't have that point of view. [18:10] I'm very inspired by the master class of the last two and a half years. [18:14] And I mean it. [18:15] I mean master class in terms of delivering results. [18:18] And the results are demonstrable. [18:19] The question you're asking is the challenging one is how do we mind the gap between performance, [18:25] the substance, and the results, and that perception before it becomes reality? [18:30] Clearly, it's reflected situationally in these polls, but that's the opportunity, [18:34] not the burden, the opportunity of being able to run on this record, the Biden record, [18:40] and to make the case to the American people over the next 18 months. [18:42] Do you think this, do you think this is all just due to age? [18:45] People just look at the age issue and just think he's not vibrant? [18:48] That wasn't even on my mind. [18:50] I'm going to take it on your mind. [18:51] I'm talking about it with the voters. [18:52] I don't know. [18:52] I'll leave that. [18:53] I don't know what it is. [18:54] All I know is we have the opportunity to sell remarkable accomplishments, [18:58] and we get an opportunity to do that in a way that, frankly, we haven't in the past, [19:02] and we need surround sound. [19:03] We need to organize bottom up, not just top down. [19:05] We can't just rely on the president to make that case alone. [19:08] The party, the Democratic Party, goes back to your original question. [19:11] The party itself, I think, needs to be more muscular in terms of how we approach [19:16] our role and responsibility at promoting that record. [19:20] Do you think another four years of Donald Trump will break us? [19:23] I hope we don't have to experience that, but I worry about democracy. [19:29] I worry about the fetishness for autocracy that we're seeing, not just from Trump, [19:34] but around the world and notably across this country. [19:37] I've made the point about DeSantis that I think he's functionally authoritarian. [19:41] I'm worried more, in many respects, about Trumpism, what transcends well beyond his term [19:47] and time and tenure. [19:49] Do you think Trump or DeSantis would be a greater threat to democracy? [19:51] I leave that to more objective minds. [19:53] I'm concerned about democracy fundamentally in this country. [19:56] I understand you say for more objective minds. [19:58] What's in your mind? [19:58] Tell me what's in your mind. [19:59] I think the vengeance in Donald Trump's heart right now is more of a threat. [20:06] So another four years of that could... [20:08] Yeah. [20:08] It's not something... [20:09] I'm not going to wallow in it. [20:10] I'm going to work hard to get President Biden re-elected and work hard to make the case [20:15] for what he's done for this country. [20:17] Filing deadlines haven't passed. [20:19] If President Biden doesn't run, why shouldn't we consider you a likely... [20:21] I think the vice president is naturally one lined up, and the filing deadlines are quickly [20:26] coming to pass, and I think we need to move past this notion that he's not going to run. [20:30] President Biden is going to run, and we're looking forward to getting him re-elected. [20:35] I think there's been so much wallowing in the last few months and hand-wringing in this [20:40] respect, but we're gearing up for the campaign. [20:43] We're looking forward to it. [20:44] I... [20:44] You know, but you hear these calls privately. [20:47] What do you tell these donors who are wallowing in this? [20:49] Time to move on. [20:51] Let's go. [20:51] I'm going to be at the DNC next week in Chicago. [20:54] I was down with the DCC two weeks ago down in San Diego. [20:58] Let's go. [20:59] Let's make the case. [21:00] Let's stop. [21:00] I mean, let's make the case of what... [21:02] What's your thing is, you're not plotting anything. [21:03] ...the Biden administration. [21:04] There's no plan B for you. [21:06] No, and perhaps there's never been more consistent words that have come out of my mouth than that. [21:10] I understand that, but I have... [21:11] Something has hit me for a while with you in particular. [21:15] Yeah. [21:15] Your political hero is Bobby Kennedy. [21:17] Yeah. [21:18] Yeah. [21:18] Bobby... [21:19] What would Bobby do? [21:20] Bobby ran. [21:22] Bobby ran. [21:23] Yeah. [21:23] He did it. [21:23] Now, you could argue that he waited for somebody else to prove LBJ was vulnerable before jumping in. [21:29] We could debate the particulars of when. [21:33] If you're going to go bold, sometimes you go when everybody tells you not to go. [21:37] Yeah, I haven't plotted this out. [21:40] I know that you haven't. [21:41] That said, I'm all in with President Biden, proven that over and over and over again in private [21:49] and increasingly in public. [21:51] I want to continue to make that case. [21:53] And again, I don't want to just go through talking points, but I'm serious when I say this. [21:58] A little less time on his age and whether or not he's going to run, a little more time on the damn record. [22:03] I wonder why there's a gap between performance and perception. [22:08] I think it's pretty obvious because we consume... [22:10] You know, there's been a myriad of consistent thoughts. [22:12] Whatever you focus on, you find more of. [22:14] And right now, the Democratic Party, the press and others so focused situationally on his age, [22:19] should he or should he not run and not on his record. [22:21] And so our job is to get out of that muck and to get back on our feet making the case. [22:26] And am I supposed to interpret that comment about the vice president, [22:28] that if for some reason the president chose not to run at this point, everybody rallies around her? [22:33] And it's the Biden-Harris administration. [22:35] Maybe I'm a little old-fashioned. [22:36] Maybe I'm a little old-fashioned about the president's advice. [22:41] I was a lieutenant governor, so I'm a little subjective. [22:45] The senior senator here has... [22:48] Her daughter apparently has power of attorney. [22:50] She, as an elected official, has power of attorney over 40 million people's representation in Washington, D.C. [22:56] Why should she still be serving as a senator? [22:59] Well, I leave it to her. [23:00] I told you I'm the most subjective human being in the world on this topic. [23:04] I have no objectivity whatsoever. [23:06] I've known Dianne Feinstein since I was a kid. [23:08] I interned with her in college. [23:10] I still have a signed book from my days when she was mayor. [23:15] More like family, too. [23:16] Yeah. [23:16] So, you know, I just... [23:18] I'm the last person to ask. [23:20] This has been sad to watch. [23:21] Yeah. [23:21] Look, this is somebody whose obituary legacy is, I think, I fear people are going to forget [23:30] because of what we're watching here at the end. [23:31] But I'll tell you, I mean, it wasn't that long ago where she would call me up, [23:34] read me the riot act on issues related to forest management, vegetation management, [23:38] what we're doing in the Central Valley on drought and water issues. [23:41] Again, that wasn't the black and white movie days. [23:43] That was not too long ago. [23:44] Her staff is still extraordinarily active, and we wish her only the best. [23:49] Her term expires. [23:49] She's not running for re-election. [23:51] So, you know, this time next year, we'll be in a very different place. [23:55] Do you feel as if the staff is fulfilling, can do the duties? [24:00] I don't think, and I know it. [24:01] We're working extraordinarily closely together. [24:03] You don't feel as if the state's losing out by not having a more active voice? [24:07] Maybe missing town halls or more... [24:09] But, you know, Senator Padilla was just in the office a few days ago. [24:12] We were comparing and contrasting issues and advocacy, [24:15] and we're aligned with Feinstein and her office on all these issues. [24:18] Sounds like you hope you don't have to make another appointment. [24:20] No, I don't want to make another appointment. [24:22] I don't think the people of California want me to make another appointment. [24:25] I think plenty of appointments. [24:25] Because you don't have to point in both seats, yeah. [24:27] Yeah, and I don't think that's, you know, that said, it's my job. [24:30] It's my responsibility. [24:32] If we have to do it, we'll do it. [24:34] You're going to abide by your pledge? [24:35] Yeah, interim appointment. [24:36] I don't want to get involved in the primary. [24:38] You would not appoint anybody on that is filed for this race? [24:42] It would be completely unfair to the Democrats that have worked their tail off. [24:45] That primary is just a matter of months away. [24:48] I don't want to tip the ballots of that. [24:50] But you're going to abide by, it would be essentially a caretaker, an African-American one. [24:55] We hope we never have to make this decision. [24:58] But I abide by what I've said very publicly on a consistent basis, yes. [25:04] Your relationship with Donald Trump, you had one because of the unusual relationship between his son and your ex-wife. [25:11] Is that still a viable communications link or not? [25:15] No, I think it was less that and more just the interpersonal relationship that came out of the time we spent together at Paradise, as he referred to it, or Pleasure, I think he referred to it, during the fire. [25:30] I find it a stark contrast that DeSantis was completely AWOL from spending any time with Joe Biden, which just to me is political malpractice. [25:38] If a Democratic governor from the state of California can go out there to Paradise and be with the president of the United States as gubernatorial... [25:45] Did you have people telling you not to appear with him? [25:47] Yes, but that was wrong. [25:49] We've got to talk about living together and advancing together. [25:52] We have a responsibility to one another, to be mature. [25:54] So if Trump gets elected again, you're going to try to work with him? [25:57] By definition. [25:59] We worked very closely together during COVID for the betterment of the people of the state of California. [26:02] Even if you're not sure whether our country can handle another... [26:04] Yeah, but at the end of the day, these are the cards that are dealt. [26:07] And I want to do the best for the people that I represent, 40 million Americans that happen to live in California. [26:12] Many support them. [26:14] I'm not going to oppose someone just to oppose them. [26:16] I don't come into a relationship with close fists, but an open hand. [26:20] I call balls and strikes, and few people were more aggressive than calling balls and strikes against Donald Trump. [26:25] I call California the most un-Trumped state in America, and I hold to that. [26:29] At the same time, we work together in terms of emergency preparedness and response, in terms of recovery, on issues related to COVID, [26:36] where Trump himself led a lot of the decisions, his administration that you risely and appropriately brought up. [26:44] We took guidance from the federal government as it relates to that. [26:48] But at the end of the day, I don't like the partisanship, and I thought it was demonstrably displayed by what I thought was a very weak exercise by Governor DeSantis in Florida recently. [27:01] Let me close with this, your relationship with the vice president. [27:03] Yeah. [27:04] You guys have been in, you just talked about your relationship with Dianne Feinstein. [27:07] Yeah. [27:07] So I assume San Francisco politics, it's a close family. [27:11] Yeah. [27:11] Are you, describe your relationship with her. [27:13] We knew each other before we were both in politics. [27:16] The day I got sworn in as mayor, walked across the street, she got sworn in as district attorney. [27:21] Extraordinarily close working relationship, including her time in the Senate. [27:24] So you can't imagine ever having to run against each other? [27:27] Of course not. [27:27] By definition, it won't happen. [27:29] But I've said that a thousand times. [27:31] We privately continue to maintain a very good relationship, interpersonal, just how you're doing, checking in. [27:38] It's been a challenging few years with COVID. [27:42] And we've had the opportunity to sit down, have lunch together in the White House. [27:46] We spend time talking about important things and trivial things. [27:48] So nobody's upset? [27:49] She's not upset that you're going to debate Ron DeSantis? [27:52] Maybe. [27:52] Apparently someone in her office is, because I read some off-the-record quotes. [27:58] I wish I knew who that was. [28:01] But I don't hear it from her. [28:03] And I'm certainly not hearing it from the White House itself. [28:05] Is this debate happening? [28:07] I might. [28:07] I hope. [28:08] We'll see. [28:09] It's predetermined. [28:10] Figuring out the time and date. [28:12] There was a venue issue that wanted thousands of people to make it a performance. [28:16] Wasn't interested in that. [28:17] We were pretty clear on that. [28:18] And so I think we're getting closer. [28:20] So Sean Hannity still moderates? [28:21] Yeah. [28:22] You're still OK with that? [28:23] Well, I mean, it's two against one. [28:25] Bring it on. [28:27] There's a lot more to this interview. [28:28] Governor Newsom and I also talked about selling San Francisco to a national audience, the [28:32] homelessness crisis, climate change, and his relationship with Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [28:37] It was once quite close. [28:38] And what he's learned about politics from reading the biographies of former California [28:41] Governor Ronald Reagan. [28:42] You can see our full interview at meetthepress.com. [28:46] When we come back, President Biden is facing more than just concerns about his age from voters. [28:50] What is the Democratic Party's plan to address that? [28:53] Panelists in the news. [28:54] Welcome back. [28:58] Panelists here. [28:59] Some of my favorite panelists. [29:00] Amy Walter, the editor-in-chief of the Cook Political Report. [29:03] My partner for so long here at first read and then some, NBC News senior political editor [29:07] Mark Murray. [29:09] Democratic pollster Cornel Belcher, who's given me my favorite gift in my closet, which are [29:14] my Jackie Robinson cufflinks. [29:15] And Daniel Pletka, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. [29:18] Our daughters went to preschool together, and that's how we've gotten to know each other. [29:22] So it's a true, this is a reason the four of you are here together. [29:26] All right, let's talk about this age elephant in the room. [29:29] Let me put up the CNN poll, the head-to-head matchups here. [29:33] We've got ones where Biden's trailing among all the non-frontrunners. [29:37] He trails Pence and Scott and Christie and Haley by the most. [29:42] Now, against the more likely nominees, Biden actually performs better here. [29:46] He's tied with DeSantis. [29:48] He's actually down a point in Biden and up a point on Ramaswamy. [29:53] Cornel, you're the Democrat here. [29:55] You've got to defend this. [29:56] This looks bad. [29:57] Why shouldn't Democrats be worried? [29:59] I've been here before, Chuck. [30:01] As someone who worked for Obama, I think if you go back to August of 2011, headlines had [30:10] Obama not only tied with a guy by the name of Rick Perry and Ron Paul. [30:16] You remember those? [30:17] But he was actually trailing the guy by the name of Mitt Romney by several points. [30:24] I think this is polling right now. [30:27] Don't pay a lot of attention to polling right now. [30:29] I was actually, I think I'd be more worried about Mitt Romney than Trump. [30:35] Why is that? [30:36] Because right now, Mitt Romney had a higher ceiling than Donald Trump. [30:39] We've seen how Donald Trump performs in two elections now. [30:42] I think right now, I would argue that Trump is at his ceiling and President Biden is close [30:49] to his floor. [30:50] But he has a good story to tell. [30:51] He has a story to tell about the economy. [30:53] And he has a story to tell about legislation, popular legislation, by the way, that we on [30:58] the Obama campaign didn't have this kind of popular legislation to talk about. [31:01] And I don't want to dismiss polling completely. [31:02] Believe me, I'm not throwing it out completely. [31:06] It is too early. [31:07] But let's just say this. [31:09] It is really hard to know. [31:11] It's getting harder and harder to use the metrics we once used, as we were all coming [31:18] of age, to decide whether or not a candidate is vulnerable or whether a candidate is going [31:22] to be able to win. [31:24] Donald Trump never hit 50 percent job approval rating as President of the United States. [31:28] He came within 42,000 votes of winning the Electoral College. [31:33] In the last midterm, 40-year high inflation, and a president who's deeply underwater, and [31:40] Democrats came within 6,000 votes of holding the House. [31:43] So what I see is sort of what Cornell sees too. [31:47] We have a tied race. [31:48] And this is going to be a tied race, no matter who the nominee is. [31:52] And it's going to be four states and a handful of votes. [31:56] Yet, go to what Bill Cassidy said, Mark. [31:59] Seventy percent of the country doesn't want this, and this is what they're going to get. [32:02] We know the expression politics abhors a vacuum. [32:05] Somebody's, something or something is going, or someone is going to try to fill the vacuum. [32:08] Yeah. [32:08] And so when we end up trying to have that frame of, well, this is going to play out exactly [32:11] like 2020 if you have a Joe Biden versus Donald Trump matchup, people who said, you know [32:16] what, I voted in 2016 and 2020, I'm not going to vote at all. [32:18] Or I'm going to vote a third party. [32:20] And to me, that is the really big wild card in this race. [32:23] But also, like, two things about Joe Biden and the worries of Democrats can be true. [32:27] And one, yes, we have a long ways to go, more than a year. [32:30] Yes, Joe Biden has cleared the Democratic field. [32:33] People like Gavin Newsom, all the other people behind him. [32:36] The Democratic Party is more unified than it was at this point in 2015 and even in 2019. [32:41] But the other part is that, you know, this campaign in 2024, Donald Trump or anyone [32:46] else, will be a different campaign for Joe Biden to run. [32:50] The coronavirus and COVID probably has gone, at least we think so. [32:54] Joe Biden will no longer be the challenger. [32:56] He is the incumbent. [32:57] And so this will be a kind of a more vigorous campaign that he has to embark on. [33:02] And I think that's what's really kind of concerning some of the worries. [33:05] Danny, I'm curious if you had sort of the same feeling I did. [33:07] Here we had Gavin Newsom and you had Bill Cassidy and you think both parties want to, [33:12] they want to start having a real debate about something, you know. [33:15] And you could feel it and here we are. [33:18] And Cassidy essentially offered himself up as an alternative. [33:22] I obviously coaxed him a little bit. [33:24] But the point is, is that this is what I think is going to define this race for the next nine [33:29] months, this sort of weird uncertainty about what are we going to do about an unpopular [33:33] pairing of candidates? [33:35] Well, we've still got a lot of shoes to drop, though. [33:37] Mark, you described, right, what's going to happen when Joe Biden really has to campaign. [33:40] He can't hide in his basement anymore. [33:42] Or what's going to happen when Donald Trump isn't out on Super Tuesday because, you know, [33:46] he's on trial. [33:47] And all of those factors are right now just sort of forward looking. [33:52] We're focused on it. [33:53] We don't know how the country is going to react to it. [33:55] But isn't it bizarre that everybody's like, oh, my God, I hate this so much. [34:01] But really, secretly, I love it. [34:03] Because they're voting for these people. [34:05] We don't have an alternative to Biden. [34:07] And we don't really have a serious alternative to Trump. [34:10] He's killing everybody else. [34:12] So somebody's making these decisions. [34:15] I'm going to go back in here on this point because here's the X factor because it can [34:20] become 2016 again because you had so many people who are saying, I'm going to protest my vote. [34:25] I'm the lesser of two evils, by the way. [34:27] And that's how Donald Trump wins. [34:28] He wins by subtraction. [34:30] So when you look inside the polling, all the votes who were once voting for got him [34:36] to 51 percent, they're now looking at third parties. [34:39] And I did focus groups work with third party voters. [34:41] And they don't even know who the third party candidates are. [34:44] But they're disgruntled about politics right now. [34:46] They're going to go shopping. [34:47] It doesn't mean they don't end up going into saying smaller. [34:51] All right. [34:52] My choices are small and large. [34:53] Is there a medium? [34:54] Is there anything else? [34:55] OK, fine. [34:55] I pick between small and large. [34:56] But it's a waste of vote. [34:57] Did I just hear you say that you think that Donald Trump could win the 2024 election against [35:02] Joe Biden if 2016 happens again? [35:05] I mean, what is it, a five percent third party number? [35:08] Five or six percent in those states that you're talking about. [35:11] Look at look at look at what happened in Wisconsin in 2016. [35:13] All those Obama voters voted third party and it was a slim victory for him. [35:19] Mark, we did all this math. [35:20] I mean, literally the only difference between Biden and Clinton was Gary Johnson. [35:24] Yeah. [35:24] And Chuck, you know, again, one of the challenges for Joe Biden in 2024. [35:27] We'll be keeping that entire Democratic coalition together. [35:31] And it wasn't just independents and it just wasn't young people and voters of color. [35:36] It was also disaffected Republicans and people who voted for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein in 2016. [35:43] And so the challenge that he has to do is replicate all of that by having a record. [35:48] And we saw stories this week, the coalition, the Biden coalition, particularly African-American men and Hispanic men, they're not reliable Democrats as much. [35:57] Listen, we'd be remiss, Chuck. [35:59] I want to talk about that. [35:59] But we'd be remiss as a panel if we didn't say thank you. [36:02] If we interrupt this program for us all to say thank you. [36:05] You saw the one minute sign. [36:06] And I got to say, look, this has been a great conversation for almost a decade. [36:12] It's going to continue. [36:12] But thank you for giving me the opportunity to be a part of this conversation. [36:16] It's been an honor, not just to get to know all of these wonderful people, but to be part of this community that is around you at NBC News. [36:25] It really has. [36:25] I can't believe I get to hang out with people like you. [36:29] I know. [36:29] Well, we've grown up together in politics. [36:33] I'm so very proud of you. [36:34] We've been shadowing each other forever. [36:35] We have. [36:36] And, you know, what I'm the most proud of is you have kept your sense of optimism. [36:41] Even though this is a hard job. [36:43] You don't talk to me off camera. [36:44] I know. [36:45] But this is a tough job. [36:47] And you have kept your critical, but you're not cynical. [36:51] And I appreciate that. [36:52] Thank you for that. [36:52] It's been a great ride. [36:53] A lot of great stories to cover. [36:55] A lot of ups and downs. [36:56] Yeah. [36:56] Just a great ride to be here with you. [36:58] I'm going to see you at the Miami, Texas National Times. [37:02] You got that right. [37:03] Go Canes. [37:04] Hey, when we come back, speaking of college, all politics is local until it isn't. [37:08] What college football's decision to expand beyond its traditional regions says about where we are heading as a country. [37:15] Data Download is next. [37:21] Welcome back. [37:21] Data Download Time. [37:22] Regional trends and viewpoints are increasingly being replaced by national ones. [37:26] In the worlds of business, politics, and even college football. [37:31] Ad revenues and audience models are dramatically reshaping the world of college athletics. [37:34] And it's destroying what were once regional conferences. [37:38] And in many ways, it's sort of a metaphor for how we've handled our politics these days. [37:43] Here was the Big Ten in 1984. [37:45] Really nicely, tightly constructed agricultural midwestern states and the industrial midwest. [37:52] Here's the Big Ten today. [37:53] It goes coast to coast. [37:55] Not quite the midwest anymore. [37:57] Here's the SEC. [37:58] Very concentrated here. [37:59] All southern states except for one border state there in Kentucky. [38:02] And now they have gone west. [38:05] Just like America in the 19th century. [38:08] How about our friends at the Big Eight? [38:10] Yes, Big 12 used to be the Big Eight. [38:12] It was also concentrated more in the plains in the midwest. [38:14] What is it now? [38:16] Well, it's more of a southwestern conference, if you will. [38:19] That also stretches to Florida, West Virginia, and Ohio, naturally. [38:23] And then let's look at the ACC. [38:26] As you can see here, it truly was a mid-Atlantic and southeast conference. [38:31] Tobacco, road, basketball, you name it. [38:33] Well, what is it today? [38:35] It is now the all-coast conference with the additions of Stanford and Cal. [38:40] Again, coast to coast, Texas. [38:41] Every major, the four largest states all represented. [38:45] In the ACC. [38:46] And then, of course, there's the Pac-12. [38:48] Welcome to East Coast bias, right? [38:50] In 1984, it was the Western Coast Conference. [38:53] And now, as we know, it has literally disappeared. [38:56] And that's what's happened to our regional differences. [38:59] All politics are national. [39:00] All college football is national. [39:02] And you know what? [39:03] It makes you wonder if we lost something. [39:05] Decisions should be made locally and in community sometimes. [39:09] Makes for better politics. [39:10] Maybe it makes for better college conferences, too. [39:13] When we come back, the new moderator of Meet the Press joins me as she gets ready for her new Sunday routine. [39:24] The last nine years as moderator of the longest-running show on television has been the honor of my professional life. [39:30] And as I prepare to pass the baton to the next custodian, it is a privilege to pass it to someone who needs no introduction. [39:38] Is the United States spying on its European allies? [39:41] Great to see you. [39:42] You lost Iowa in 2008. [39:43] How do you win this time? [39:44] Are you giving Russian President Vladimir Putin the upper hand heading into your talks? [39:49] Did you direct Mike Flynn to discuss sanctions with the Russian ambassador prior to your inauguration? [39:55] No, I didn't. [39:56] Is abuse of power an impeachable event? [39:59] Mr. President, is it humane to separate children from their families? [40:03] I'm Kristen Welker of NBC News, and I welcome you to the final 2020 presidential debate. [40:08] Vice President Biden, there have been questions about the work your son has done in China and for a Ukrainian energy company when you were vice president. [40:15] In retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical? [40:21] Nothing was unethical. [40:22] Mr. President, why haven't you been able to get them the help they need? 30 seconds here. [40:26] Because Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to approve it. I do. [40:29] But you're the president. [40:30] Don't you need to recalibrate to some extent to try to work across the aisle with a Republican-led House? [40:36] Is that your signature on the check, though? [40:38] It could be. But it doesn't matter whether it's my signature or not. You know how many checks I've written to Lindsey? Yes, that's my check. [40:48] Does the president need to take the reins? And I'll be at the White House tomorrow, so I'll give you an update when I ask him. [40:54] Well, Kristen Welker joins me now in her last appearance as a guest on Meet the Press. You ready? [41:01] I am ready, Chuck. And I just want to say I am also so thankful and grateful to you for this moment, for entrusting me with this monumental, important role. [41:14] I take this responsibility so seriously. I'm ready because you have helped me get ready, Chuck. [41:19] You are someone who invests in the people that you care about, and you have invested in me. [41:24] And I am just so eternally grateful for that. [41:26] I've said it before. I think it bears repeating. [41:29] You brought me to D.C. [41:31] You taught me just about everything I know about politics. [41:34] And I say that a lot, but just to give folks a sense of what I actually mean by that, one of the things that sticks in my mind is you were at a news conference in 2013. [41:44] Former President Obama, Prime Minister Netanyahu. [41:46] We were covering the White House at the same time. [41:48] This was in Jerusalem. [41:49] You asked more questions than any other reporter. [41:53] And it was a message to me that you have to have the courage, you have to have the confidence to ask the tough questions and to ask as many questions as need to be asked. [42:03] It's not a popularity contest. [42:05] And I remember thinking to myself in that moment, you have to push yourself harder, Kristen. [42:10] You have to ask tougher questions. [42:12] You have to make sure you're getting in the follows. [42:13] The best part about all of this is that you're not going anywhere. [42:17] You're going to be on speed dial for me and all of us. [42:19] You push yourself hard. [42:20] You work really hard. [42:21] You prepare, you out-prepare so many people. [42:25] Tell me this. [42:26] I, you know, I had my own thing that I wanted to bring. [42:28] I wanted to bring more data to what we did and all this stuff. [42:32] What's, what's something you want to bring that you think will be unique to your, your tenure as moderator? [42:39] Well, I want to approach this as a reporter. [42:41] That's who I am. [42:42] That's who I've always been. [42:44] I've covered three administrations now, the Obama administration, the Trump administration, the Biden administration. [42:50] I've traveled all over the world with all of these presidents. [42:52] And I really want to bring that to the show every Sunday to make sure that we are giving our viewers the information that they need. [43:01] And now my beat, by the way, is all of Washington, the campaign trail, and frankly, the world. [43:06] And I want to be asking those tough questions. [43:09] I want to be making you proud. [43:11] Oh, you will. [43:11] I want to be building on the legacy of this show. [43:13] What are your thoughts about breaking the polarization, breaking this habit where they're just, they don't want to answer any questions to people that they think are, aren't going to ask friendly questions? [43:23] Well, look, this is something you and I have talked about a lot when you and I have sat at this desk together, anchoring on election nights. [43:31] We are living in a world in which we are deeply divided as a country. [43:36] And so my thoughts are, I need to be keeping my finger on the pulse of what matters to voters. [43:42] I'm going to be out on the trail. [43:44] I'm going to be bringing their questions here to the moderator's desk. [43:48] And you've always said this, the role of the moderator is to bring Washington to the rest of America and vice versa. [43:55] It's a huge responsibility. [43:56] It's one that I take very seriously. [43:59] Look, there's a lot of great imitators to what we do, but there's only one meet the press. [44:04] Now, here's my baton, and part of it is I want to get rid of this. [44:08] So, but it's sort of my old reliable. [44:11] I do not, I have had alarms not go off with this modern thing, Mr. Jobs and Mr. Cook. [44:19] This thing, with its battery backup, I highly recommend it. [44:23] You know, it does a funny thing. [44:24] You plug it into a wall, it keeps power, and when the power goes out, it has a battery backup. [44:28] I love it. [44:28] It has never failed me. [44:29] Thank you. [44:30] My real trick is to set it 40 minutes early. [44:32] You will never oversleep. [44:34] But here's my other promise to you. [44:35] You will never sleep on Saturday. [44:37] That is for sure. [44:39] This is timeless. [44:40] You are timeless, Chuck. [44:41] So is this show. [44:42] Thank you so much. [44:44] I'm really honored. [44:45] And again, you left very big shoes to fill, and I just want to make you proud. [44:49] They are, they are, it is, again, there's a reason we've all used the word custodian, [44:54] all the previous moderators. [44:56] It is, again, you're the moderator of the longest running show in television. [45:01] Nobody wants, you don't want to be the last moderator. [45:03] And hand it over, when you hand it over, it'll, I'm sure, be in a better place than you have it today. [45:09] I hope so. [45:09] I'll work hard to do that. [45:11] I promise you that every Sunday. [45:13] Kristen, thank you. [45:13] Thanks, Chuck. [45:14] On my first day on the job at Meet the Press, I was handed an audience survey of Sunday show viewers. [45:19] And the number one reason folks said they tuned in was not because of who the person was behind the chair or the guests. [45:25] It was simply to get educated. [45:27] So for nearly a decade, I've had the honor of helping to explain America to Washington and Washington to America, [45:32] as Kristen just quoted me about. [45:34] And it's that education piece that I'm hanging my hat on for the rest of my professional life. [45:38] One thing we will lament, we all lament lately, is the lack of knowledge and nuance in our politics and citizenship. [45:44] That's a vacuum I hope to continue to fill, whether in our continued news coverage here at NBC or via other venues like docu-series, docu-dramas, [45:52] focused on bridging our divides, piercing these political bubbles. [45:55] And I will continue, of course, to be a big part of NBC's political coverage because, as Tom Brokaw said to me, he says, [46:02] look, some networks do some things well, but nobody does politics like NBC. [46:07] And he was referring back all the way to David Brinkley. [46:09] And that is sort of the tradition I've always sent from Brinkley to Russert. [46:14] And that's the stuff I want to carry on. [46:16] That's the stuff Kristen is going to carry on. [46:19] I also could not have done this job for the last nine years without the team that you don't see on television, [46:23] the producers, the control room, the crew, the editors, the artists, [46:27] who make this show look like an incredible production every week. [46:31] I get up early and make it up earlier. [46:34] Television is a team sport, and I'm proud to be a member of this team and stay a member of this team, [46:40] even as a spectator, a cheerleader, and an advisor. [46:43] So that's all for today. [46:45] Thanks for watching and for so many years of loyalty to me and to this show. [46:49] I'm happy to say my colleague Kristen Welker is going to be here next week [46:52] because it doesn't matter who sits in this chair. [46:54] If it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.