Meet The Press Broadcast (Full) - January 10th, 2021 — Meet The Press — NBC News

[0:00] this Sunday assault on democracy egged on by President Trump we're gonna walk [0:08] down to the Capitol because you'll never take back our country with weakness you [0:14] have to show strength thousands of pro-Trump rioters storm into the Capitol [0:18] building overwhelming security members of Congress cowering in the house [0:26] gallery we were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda and we're [0:32] being instructed to each of us get a gas mask five people dead the speaker's [0:38] office breached many others trash seems more out of a dictatorship than a [0:43] democracy now the aftermath Democrats moving to impeach the president a [0:48] second time I think the American people have seen enough and they are ready for [0:52] us to do the job of impeaching this man cabinet secretaries and other [0:56] officials resigning I can't stay here not after yesterday the president [1:00] permanently banned from Twitter insisting he and his supporters will not go away a [1:04] democracy in crisis my guest this morning former Trump chief of staff Mick [1:09] Mulvaney the chairman of the house Democrats Hakeem Jeffries and Republican [1:14] senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania joining me for insight and analysis are NBC [1:19] News Capitol Hill correspondent Casey Hunt NBC News senior Washington correspondent [1:23] Hallie Jackson former Homeland Security Secretary Jay Johnson and Wall Street [1:28] Journal columnist Peggy Noonan welcome to Sunday and a special edition of meet the [1:34] press from NBC News in Washington the longest-running show in television [1:41] history this is a special edition of meet the press with Chuck Todd good Sunday [1:47] morning it was almost exactly four years ago at his inauguration that Donald Trump [1:53] stood at the US Capitol and said this American carnage stops right here and [1:58] stops right now on Wednesday that American carnage came to the Capitol inspired by a [2:05] president trying to deny his successors inauguration make no mistake what happened [2:11] that day was an insurrection against the United States government by thousands of [2:16] pro-Trump rioters who stormed and sacked the Capitol aided by elected Republicans [2:21] trying to overturn Joe Biden's victory with a big lie and inspired by a president of the United States [2:28] who urged that mob on then later that day excuse the violence with a lie again calling the election [2:35] fraudulent since Wednesday President Trump has been largely out of sight muzzled by Twitter and Facebook [2:42] his only public appearance a walk it back video scripted by someone else [2:47] in which he told those same rioters they will pay if they broke the law so what now [2:53] Democrats are preparing to impeach President Trump for a second time [2:57] Speaker Nancy Pelosi promising to move forward if Mr. Trump does not resign [3:02] there has been talk of removing the president through the 25th amendment [3:06] but there does not appear to be enough support for that and Mr. Trump is even [3:12] said to be discussing trying to preemptively pardon himself or he could be talked into resignation [3:19] early in order to receive a more legally sound pardon from a President Pence Wednesday's madness [3:26] was what happens when supporters take President Trump both seriously and literally still this [3:33] was as predictable as it was shocking in fact don't take my word for it take the word [3:39] of Senator Marco Rubio who said this in 2016 about supporting candidate Trump something he has done [3:46] since 2016 you mark my words there will be prominent people in American politics who will spend years [3:55] explaining to people how they fell into this days after he provoked a violent mob to storm the Capitol [4:05] a single article of impeachment is expected to be introduced on Monday accusing President Trump of [4:11] incitement of insurrection if he does not resign we're gonna walk down and I'll be there with you [4:16] because you'll never take back our country with weakness you have to show strength [4:22] there's a gun there's a gun this video shows the moment rioters reached the door of the Speaker's lobby [4:29] leading to the House chambers lawmakers hiding in fear Capitol Police brandishing guns in an armed [4:35] standoff we were just told that there has been tear gas in the rotunda and we're being instructed [4:44] to each of us get a gas mask that are under our seats dozens have now been charged after Wednesday's [4:51] rampage including Richard Barnett of Arkansas photographed in Speaker Pelosi's office Lonnie Kaufman [4:57] of Alabama whose vehicle allegedly contained 11 Molotov cocktails a handgun and an assault rifle he was carrying [5:04] two more guns and Jacob Anthony Chansley aka Jake and Jelly of Arizona who confronted law enforcement [5:12] carrying a spear protester Ashley Babbitt was fatally shot by a police officer now on administrative leave [5:20] Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick also died from injuries after pro-Trump rioters struck him in the [5:26] head with a fire extinguisher according to police this is an act of domestic terrorism so this is what the FBI [5:33] will be focused on 24-7 the president on Wednesday telling them all this was a fraudulent election but [5:41] we can't play into the hands of these people we have to have peace so go home we love you only taping a [5:51] scripted about face after pressure my focus now turns to ensuring a smooth orderly and seamless [5:57] transition of power then reversing course again on Twitter tweeting his supporters will have a giant [6:04] voice long into the future they will not be disrespected or treated unfairly saying he will not be going to [6:10] Biden's inauguration hours later Twitter permanently suspended his account due to the risk of further [6:16] incitement of violence now Democrats are pushing to impeach him a second time he has done something so [6:22] serious that there should be prosecution against him I think the American people have seen enough [6:29] Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski calling on President Trump to step down quote I want him out he has caused [6:35] enough damage I will definitely consider whatever articles they might move because as I've told you I [6:41] believe the president has disregarded his oath of office but Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell is [6:47] making it clear impeachment proceedings could not start until January 19th in the Senate a day before [6:53] Biden is sworn in I think it's a ridiculous discussion to have you don't have the time for it to happen [6:59] even if there was a reason and joining me now is President Trump's former chief of staff Mick Mulvaney [7:07] who himself just resigned a special envoy to Northern Ireland as a result of Wednesday's riot Mr. Mulvaney [7:14] welcome back to meet the press and to viewers and yourself yes I have a rough voice a lot of [7:19] broadcasting during the week and a lot of hot water and lemon this weekend but Mr. Mulvaney let me start [7:26] with look you you worked with him very closely what is his state of mind right now Chuck thanks very [7:33] much for having me sorry you're feeling under the weather I don't know I know what it would have been [7:37] like eight months a year ago I have seen the president in similar circumstances certainly nothing of this [7:45] gravity but I've not told folks what this story before about how we had an incident during the [7:50] impeachment when he was accused in social media or by some politicians of interfering with a witness [7:57] while she was testifying I know a little bit about witness intimidation didn't think it was a legal [8:02] problem but we knew it was a political problem and I went to him privately close the door and said Mr. [8:07] President this is a problem we need to fix it he pushed back a little bit but then he called the [8:11] lawyer then he called Kevin McCarthy then I think he called Ivanka and he called a bunch of his friends [8:16] on New York and over the course of the next hours he took data and information and opinions from a bunch [8:21] of different people and then he pivoted and changed course that's the president that I knew that's the [8:26] reason I thought that we'd never be here I thought the president would be presidential clearly that [8:32] system has broken down and whether or not the president is different or the people advising him [8:36] are different or both I don't know what's going on inside the Oval Office now and I don't know what's [8:41] going on inside the president's head so you say he's different but in fairness and you probably [8:47] knew this was coming in 2016 congressman Mick Mulvaney called then candidate Donald Trump a terrible [8:53] human being said he would be disqualified from office in an ordinary universe because of what [8:59] you said were atrocious things he had said you wish you had listened to congressman Mulvaney Chuck I'm [9:07] very familiar with that comment I think if you look at that in context that was on the eve of or the day [9:11] after the access Hollywood tape and some of those terrible things the president said the the locker [9:16] room talk as he describes it that's different policy differences are different stylized stylistic [9:23] differences are different things you don't like about a person's personalities are different than [9:28] what happened on Wednesday Wednesday was a fundamental threat to the United States it speaks to what makes [9:33] us American it's an existential type of thing it's not it's not superficial it's deep and it's real and [9:39] it's different which is why you saw so many resignations this week and didn't see them over [9:43] the course of the last couple years Wednesday changed everything a lot of people would push back [9:50] at you and say you know a character is destiny and in fact I do you've you've used this eight month [9:55] marker uh you know uh I want to his rhetoric incendiary rhetoric goes back far greater than just the [10:02] last few weeks here's some examples I love the old days you know what they used to do to guys like [10:08] that when they were in a place like this they'd be carried out on a stretcher folks if she gets to [10:13] pick her judges nothing you can do folks although the second amendment people maybe there is I don't [10:22] know stand back and stand by you see where I'm going here it is one of these things you are basically [10:32] saying I didn't see this version of Donald Trump a lot of us with all due respect said yeah we we saw [10:39] this version of Donald Trump to us didn't change this was the guy we saw um celebrating violence [10:45] in 16 and it just sort of carried through to sadly this inevitable conclusion yeah and I know it's I [10:52] know it's easy for folks now who've never liked the president or always disagreed with his policies or [10:56] really disliked him as a person to say why didn't everybody see this coming but keep in mind so many of [11:02] us that worked with him every single day didn't see him through a filter in fairness you throw you saw him [11:07] oftentimes you've had some face to face with him but most people saw him through the filter of a [11:11] media that didn't like him very much we saw him every single day the reason that I wrote in the [11:16] Wall Street Journal six weeks ago that I thought the president would leave presidentially is because I [11:21] had evidence to that end I had stories I had background I had seen that type of president and I never [11:27] thought I'd see what I saw on Wednesday yes the rhetoric was very high and very very fiery you and I both [11:33] know however that American politicians do this on a regular basis I could pull you similar clips of [11:37] Maxine Waters telling people to take to the streets it's different though when as you said in your [11:44] entry um that people took him literally I never thought I'd see that I'd never thought I'd see a [11:50] day in our country where people from any side of the political spectrum would storm the Capitol in [11:55] order to intentionally stop the constitutional transfer of power which is part of what was happening on [12:01] Wednesday that's what's different Chuck the country is different than I expected maybe we can talk about [12:06] that as well but yeah it's not the same as it was uh in those previous examples well I do also want to [12:12] give you a chance to respond your your predecessor as chief of staff um laid the blame on what he called [12:17] the let Trump be Trump mindset here's his uh explanation John Kelly my uh replacement uh let me just say [12:28] yesterday and other things he's done in the last two years comes his result sound all right I apologize [12:38] for that I'll read you the quote there my replacement well let me just say this is what happens [12:42] um when you said let Trump be Trump I understand you had some audio issues there I did too I think the [12:48] audience did hear it for what it's worth Mr. Bolvani so the let Trump be Trump mindset in hindsight [12:54] do you wish you had figured out how to create more barriers more guardrails not not not guardrails it's [13:01] the president was the elected leader of the nation it's not the job of the chief of staff to undo that [13:07] it's the job of trying to help the president be successful which I think we were able to do when I [13:13] was with tremendous successes we had record low rates of of unemployment um we had no new foreign [13:20] um wars for the first time in my memory during a presidential term we had tremendous things to look [13:26] back on as a success because we were able to work with the president let him be himself but also work [13:32] together to be successful keep in mind John Kelly and I respect John he's a tremendous American but he [13:37] didn't resign when he was he was the chief of staff of the president he warned against yes men by the [13:42] way that's that is a good and sound warning and one of the things I'm afraid of is that the West Wing is [13:48] different now than when John or I was there the president used to love debate he would love to get [13:52] information from all sorts of different sides I'm not sure that's happening now and if there's just [13:57] aren't people there reaffirming and reamplifying what they think he wants them to say should Donald [14:03] Trump be ostracized from the Republican Party as you know it well I think it's going to happen anyway [14:08] um I think the ideas will live on the ideas of the Republican Party are bigger than one man but I think if [14:15] you have any role at all in what happened on Wednesday um that you sort of you don't deserve to leave the [14:22] party anymore the ideas are bigger than the people but I think I think the voters will take that in [14:27] consideration I can't tell you again I was elected in the in the tea party wave of 2010 sort of the [14:32] precursor of the Trump movement and I can't tell you the number of people who've supported me for a [14:36] decade who's saying that Wednesday was a bridge too far they love Trump they love the policies they [14:40] were real pleased with the successes of the first four years but he lost them on Wednesday and I think [14:45] that's I think that's the right thing I think people need to know that what happened on Wednesday is just [14:49] different Mick Mulvaney the former White House chief of staff and budget director under President Trump [14:55] thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us sir thanks with House Democrats prepared to [15:02] move on a second impeachment as early as tomorrow I'm joined by Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York [15:06] he is the chairman of the House Democrats Congressman Jeffries was the Democrats floor manager during Mr. [15:13] Trump's initial impeachment trial Congressman welcome back to meet the press so let me just start with this [15:20] what what would have to happen this week that would somehow stop the House of Representatives from impeaching the [15:27] president good morning Chuck the assault on the Capitol was a violent insurrection that was incited and encouraged by [15:38] Donald Trump it was an attack on the Congress an attack on the country and an attack on the Constitution and Donald Trump [15:47] represents a clear and present danger to the health and safety of the American people as well as our democracy and that's why [15:55] House Democrats are united in demanding and seeking his immediate removal now there are three ways that that can be brought about [16:03] Vice President Pence and a majority of the cabinet can step up and do the right thing and invoke the 25th amendment and we're going to [16:11] continue to push them to do that we can also impeach Donald Trump and he can be convicted and removed by the Senate that should come back into town to deal with this constitutional crisis and the existential threat to our democracy that's sitting at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or the Republican enablers who are around Donald Trump can demand that he resign similar to what took place in the aftermath of Watergate [16:41] Well I'm curious by the way so do you think there is if he does resign you would remove the impeachment it sounds like and the reason I'm asking that scenario is he could resign but if the goal is to prevent him from ever holding federal office again how would you go about that without impeachment the goal at the present moment is to address the existential threat that Donald Trump presents at this time every second [17:16] every minute every minute every hour that Donald Trump remains in office presents a danger to the American people you know Donald Trump may be in the Twitter penalty box but he still has access to the nuclear codes that's a frightening prospect and so all of our efforts at the present moment are focused on his immediate removal that's the right thing to do the House is a separate and co-equal branch of government we have a constitutional responsibility [17:43] to serve as a check and balance on an out of control executive branch Donald Trump is completely and totally out of control and even his long-time enablers have now come to that conclusion [17:50] The one member of House leadership that may have sympathetic views as yours is Liz Cheney on the Republican side of the aisle have you had any talks with her or like-minded House Republicans about joining this effort? [18:09] Well Liz Cheney and I worked closely together in the immediate aftermath of the insurrection and the assault on the Capitol just to make sure that the members of our respective caucuses were safe and secure and received as much information as possible during the unfolding events and in the immediate aftermath of what took place she's involved in the process talking to her Republican colleagues about how they are going to [18:42] to deal with what's taking place on their side of the aisle I'll let her speak to that I do know that several Republicans have publicly and some privately indicated that Donald Trump needs to be removed and this long national nightmare needs to end part of the problem here Chuck is that Donald Trump and so many Republicans in the House and the Senate perpetrated the big lie that Joe Biden did not win the election and that the presidency was being stolen the American people have spoken more than 80 million people voted [19:13] for Joe Biden the states have spoken more than 300 electoral college votes in an electoral college landslide the courts have spoken more than 50 different decisions many written by Trump appointed judges all concluding that Joe Biden won the election in clear and convincing fashion but the big lie was perpetrated and that is what led to the insurrection the coup d'etat attempt and the assault on the Capitol and so the Republicans are going to have to deal with that situation [19:42] moving forward once we address Donald Trump you're going to feel safe at the inauguration I will feel safe at the inauguration and it's important for all of us to be there in the same way that it was important for Democrats and Republicans to return to the House floor and the Senate floor to complete our constitutional responsibilities and certify the election of Joe Biden because what the insurrectionists and the seditionists are attempting to do [20:18] is a powerful transfer of power and that is what January 20th at high noon represents and so I will feel safe I have confidence in our law enforcement in the secret service who are in charge of security confidence in our speaker to make sure that members are safe and we'll be there power will be transferred and I look forward to Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's leadership in unifying the country crushing the coronavirus [20:48] are you confident that Capitol Police or somebody else didn't help with this well we need a comprehensive investigation in terms of how it all unfolded clearly the Capitol Police were under resourced and under prepared but there were a lot of brave men and women including officer Sicknick who fought hard one of whom lost their lives many of whom are injured [21:22] that those responsible for preparations are held accountable some of whom have already indicated they're going to resign but we need a full and complete investigation to ensure the safety and security of the American people the safety and security of our staffs moving forward the safety and security of members of Congress and the protection of the Capitol which is really the cathedral of our democracy in this great republic and never again should we see the type of assault that occurred this past Wednesday [21:52] Congressman Hakeem Jeffries a nightmare of a week I'm glad we got through it thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us up next why were Republicans silent for so long about the threat President Trump posed I'm going to talk to Republican Senator Pat Toomey when we come back welcome back it was two years ago that a man sent 16 packages containing pipe bombs to Democrats and other perceived Trump opponents in October the FBI arrested 13 people [22:39] in a connection with a connection with a plot to kidnap Michigan's Democratic governor Gretchen Whitmer Virginia's governor was also on the kidnapping list and throughout the Trump presidency journalists have been routinely threatened by Trump supporters sadly I can attest to that on a near weekly basis in the wake of Wednesday's events it's fair to ask why so many people remain silent about the obvious threat President Trump's incendiary rhetoric posed so joining me now is Republican Senator Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania Senator Toomey thank you for joining us [23:10] it's been a rough week welcome back welcome back to meet the press let me start with this there's calls for resignation impeachment removal by way of the 25th amendment you yourself said he's committed impeachable offenses in your view what is the most appropriate way for Donald Trump to exit office well I think the best way for our country Chuck is for the president to resign and go away as soon as possible [23:44] the will the will or the consensus to exercise the 25th amendment option and I don't think there's time to do an impeachment there's 10 days left before the president leaves anyway I think the best thing would be a resignation [23:57] the issue of impeachment you have said he committed impeachable offenses and there's clearly the timing issue [24:06] but one of the goals one of the penalties that come with impeachment this is almost as much about removing him from current office but it would prevent him from ever holding federal office again [24:17] assuming assuming a majority senate vote if he's convicted would also then do that should that be the goal how to make sure this man never holds federal office ever again in that because of what he did on Wednesday [24:31] yeah so Chuck a couple of things one it's not clear the constitution permits impeachment conviction and prohibition against ever serving again which is a separate vote [24:47] that that's permitted after a person has left office which is what would have to happen here so whether that could be done in a binding fashion is really an open question [24:58] so that's number one number two I would certainly hope and I actually do believe that the president has disqualified himself [25:05] I don't think he's a viable candidate for office ever again because of the outrageous behavior in the post-election period so those would be my two points [25:16] throughout his term senator you were on here quite a few times when uncomfortably he would say something or do something [25:26] where I would ask you about his rhetoric and you had a consistent answer and I want to show some folks those answers here we go [25:34] I don't spend a lot of time trying to evaluate and analyze why the president comes to the conclusions he comes to [25:41] I don't spend a lot of time focusing on the president's tweets and things that the president says what I focus more on is what is he going to actually do [25:48] I think it's a long way to attributing any kind of real link between what the president might say [25:55] or tweet and the extraordinary type of madness that leads someone to massacre people [26:02] now look in fairness I also want to play what you said on the senate floor this week here's that [26:08] we witnessed today the damage that can result when men in power and responsibility refused to acknowledge the truth [26:17] we saw bloodshed because the demagogue chose to spread falsehoods and so distrust of his own fellow Americans [26:27] senator you know the question that's coming and I'm sure you've heard it from a lot of people [26:32] do you regret not speaking out sooner and did you underestimate the threat of his rhetoric [26:38] chuck I think it's important to make a distinction between the president's behavior prior to the election [26:44] and his behavior after the election for years and said ridiculous things he he he had like he lied frequently [26:53] many objectionable things if they were sufficiently objectionable I did publicly weigh in and I did [27:00] many many times but he tweeted hundreds of times a day many days and I still don't think that I should [27:07] have gone back and attempted to be his twitter editor after the election he took this to an entire [27:14] different place orders of magnitude different look I mean come on recruiting thousands of Americans from [27:21] around the country to descend on the Capitol promising a wild ride and inciting them to attack [27:27] the Capitol building so as to prevent the constitutional responsibility of the vice president and the [27:33] Congress to complete the peaceful transfer of power after an election also that he could try to stay in [27:41] office that is wildly beyond anything that any of us that well certainly that I ever contemplated and [27:47] and anything that he did before so I don't think that this unbelievable behavior of Wednesday for instance [27:56] could have been reasonably expected well you say that and it with all due respect an entire primary campaign [28:05] was waged against him in 2016 where some of the very people that support this president still like Ted Cruz [28:12] called him a pathological liar worried that his rhetoric was going to go in another and and many people didn't [28:20] believe it I you yourself or explain to me you didn't you didn't really believe this was going to go there and I [28:28] guess a lot of other folks go why I how did you miss it well you know how did how did half of America miss [28:38] it or more than half America I'm I'm quite sure that many Democrats that voted for Joe Biden didn't expect [28:43] that this was going to happen Chuck and it's because the president spiraled down into a kind of madness [28:49] that was different I'm sorry if if people don't acknowledge that I think what he did this past week [28:56] is wildly different from the offensive tweets that were common during his presidency and I don't think [29:02] that those tweets uh clearly indicated that this was coming what should um what kind of responsibility [29:11] do you hold senators Hawley and Cruz for what happened on Wednesday uh look I think the um what they're [29:20] gonna they're gonna have a lot of soul searching to do and uh the the problem is they were complicit in [29:25] the big lie this lie that that Donald Trump won the election in a landslide and it was all stolen um [29:31] they compounded that with this notion that somehow this could all be reversed in the uh final moments [29:38] of the uh congressional proceedings um so that's that's going to be uh that's going to haunt them for [29:44] a very long time I know I know you are lim you you are a uh not crazy about uh what you might consider [29:52] overreach um would it be overreach to kick either man out of the senate I I think so uh I I think [30:03] they're going to pay a very heavy price uh what they they did was it was technically permissible under [30:10] the senate rules um their voters will decide whether they get another term and they're they're both young [30:18] enough men that I'm sure they would certainly like to do that um so I I think it should be left to the [30:25] voters of their state to decide what their fate is you regret your vote for president now now knowing [30:31] what I knew then I think uh as the 75 million Americans making this evaluation between this [30:37] radicalization of the Democratic Party and an administration that had very significant successes [30:42] um I understand and I I this is it was a rational decision nobody could have anticipated what what has [30:50] happened I don't think uh subsequent to the election Senator Pat Toomey Republican from Pennsylvania [30:58] really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us thank you sir thanks for [31:02] having me Chuck you got it when we come back one of the most extraordinary weeks in American [31:07] history panelist next welcome back the panel is joining us NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Casey [31:20] Hunt NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson former Homeland Security Secretary [31:26] Jay Johnson and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan Hallie I want to start with you [31:32] in the moment here you're you're you've covered this administration for the almost four years now and [31:38] I understand you have some uh news to share about the what is the relationship these days between [31:44] Vice President Pence and President Trump in a nutshell Chuck it's not good I have learned from a source [31:51] familiar with this that not only did President Trump not reach out to Vice President Pence as the events [31:56] of Wednesday unfolded and remember the Vice President was in a secure location with by the way members of his [32:02] family his wife his daughter his brother had all come to be in attendance but I'm told that the [32:07] President has not called Vice President Pence since then uh it is a striking detail and I think it reflects [32:14] the real nadir of the relationship between these two men right now and how acrimonious it's become of [32:18] course the President spent days Chuck as you know pressuring Vice President Pence publicly to do something [32:24] that he just did not have the constitutional authority to do on Wednesday and further Chuck just to [32:29] advance the story more it wasn't just the public pressure I'm told that as far back as December [32:33] 15th mid-December so weeks ago there were behind the scenes maneuvering to try to essentially get [32:39] the Vice President to do what the President wanted calls arranged with attorneys walking through different [32:43] scenarios that the Vice President in the eyes of the President could potentially take even though again [32:48] as the Vice President made very clear he did not have the authority to do so Chuck as far as the 25th [32:54] Amendment listen I'm told that the Vice President just does not think that that is practical that's [32:58] what we've been hearing and reporting from people close to him allies etc but there is real concern [33:04] and anger here about how this moves forward Casey Hunt how bipartisan is impeachment going to be this week [33:14] that's the question Chuck and I think we are moving toward it becoming a little bit more bipartisan [33:20] honestly and listening to that interview that you just did with Senator Toomey I think underscores that [33:26] we're told that there may have been some lawmakers who perhaps voted with the President on the [33:32] Electoral College question partly because they were afraid for their own safety and the safety of their [33:38] families that the calculation wasn't necessarily just a political one which I think gives you a little [33:44] bit of a sense of just how dramatic this was now the question will be how political is it perceived to [33:51] be going forward there's an increasing sense that Nancy Pelosi doesn't tend to move forward with the [33:56] impeachment articles this week but that they may not send them over to the Senate right away because [34:02] Mitch McConnell has essentially made clear that there's no way to that he will be able to or be willing to [34:09] force the levers in such a way that would start the trial before Democrats take control of the Senate [34:14] so the potential is that trial could be unfolding in the first weeks of the Biden administration the [34:21] question is does the President-elect want that to be what they do first so they may hold those articles [34:26] of impeachment in the House until perhaps weeks or months later but you know I think it's important [34:33] to note there seems to potentially be enough votes in the Senate to convict right now Republican votes [34:39] at this moment when this is still so fresh obviously political calculations change but [34:44] I mean they need 17 votes Chuck and there were 92 Republicans in the Senate who voted to say no [34:49] President Biden President-elect Biden won this election so I don't think people are willing to [34:55] be extraordinarily out front about that quite yet and there are a lot of questions about the impeachment [35:00] process but I cannot overstate the level of anger among Senate Republicans all right Peggy and Jay your job [35:07] here is to answer this question what should happen in the next 10 days Jay you first Chuck first I have to [35:16] take issue with what Senator Toomey said about us not seeing this coming I've written several op-eds over [35:21] the last four years about how President Trump's rhetoric makes unacceptable behavior acceptable and [35:28] violence inevitable my principal concern right now Chuck at this moment is the domestic security situation [35:37] which is to say the least tense and should be on high alert I believe what President Trump did on [35:44] Wednesday was worse than anything he did around Russia anything he did around Ukraine any phone call [35:50] he made to the Georgia Secretary of State if I were in the House I would vote to impeach if I were in the [35:56] Senate I would vote to convict I do however question the necessity given the current climate of holding [36:03] that vote over the next week and a half particularly when McConnell has said that the trial will not occur [36:10] until after January 20 I think we need I think there are additional considerations here the goal is to [36:18] disqualify him from holding federal office there is precedent for holding such a trial after the [36:24] person leaves office Peggy what's your what's your prescription my read quickly is that we are in a crisis [36:37] this coming week could not be more consequential more weighted with history I from everything I hear [36:46] there are still active conversations going in Washington with regard to the 25th amendment [36:53] and whether or not the president should be essentially judged to be incapacitated that is amazing enough [37:00] or another road second impeachment he's already been impeached once I would take any of the above [37:08] because I believe the president should leave I believe he is a danger but very quickly on impeachment [37:15] my thoughts are this first of all he's dangerous he should be impeached because he's showing every [37:21] signs that on the way out he'd like to pull down a few more pillars we don't know how he's spending his [37:29] days who's around him it doesn't seem to be a lot of people or a lot of first-rate people and real [37:35] serious counselors so there's that danger I think he breached the constitution when his supporters breached [37:43] the grounds of the capitol so I think there's just just straight out reason to remove him I think future [37:52] presidents may need to know what the exact boundaries are for presidential behavior wouldn't be bad to [38:00] show them this week I also think you know president trump at this point he simply deserves exceptional [38:07] dishonor and a second impeachment would be a uh an exceptional dishonor I hope the republican party [38:17] does not miss this moment they should move forward I think the impeachment should be bipartisan it will [38:27] be the only way for it to be really pretty fully accepted but understood and respected by history both [38:36] parties said no more it a bipartisan impeachment threat is what got Nixon to resign perhaps if a [38:45] bunch of republicans grew some spines in the next 24 hours and they knew it was coming maybe just maybe he [38:53] would take that route I'm going to pause right there when we come back the ways in which the far right [38:58] is trying to blame Wednesday's violence on the far left it's propaganda and a big lie in real time [39:04] and that's next welcome back Wednesday's violence was shocking thousands of pro-trump protesters wearing [39:14] mega hats or q anon gear storming the capitol trashing the building and leaving five people dead and many [39:20] more injured but even before it was possible to fully take stock of the damage done by the pro-trump mob [39:27] the far-right propaganda media ecosystem began peddling a counter-narrative that it was antifa the [39:33] anti-right-wing movement that sacked the capitol absurd yes of course harmless not at all almost [39:41] immediately after reports that the capitol had been breached televangelist mark burns a long-time trump [39:46] supporter tweeted this is not a trump supporter this is a staged antifa attack the accompanying photo is [39:54] of a popular q anon follower jake angeli who is known as the q shaman mr trump's son eric liked burns's [40:02] tweet according to an nbc news analysis about 7 000 posts on twitter referred to antifa followers [40:08] posing as trump rioters without any evidence some of the most popular tweets had thousands of likes [40:14] and retweets and from social media those same talking points migrated to conservative tv talk [40:23] i think a lot of it is the antifa folks there were likely not all trump supporters and there are some [40:29] reports that antifa sympathizers may have been sprinkled throughout the crowd [40:34] we see serious indications that antifa and outside infiltrators could be involved in all of this [40:40] and when congress reconvened after the mayhem that night to finish counting the electoral votes [40:47] florida republican congressman matt gates had the audacity to blame antifa on the house floor [40:55] and yet in truth the fbi said friday there is no indication antifa took part in any part of the attack [41:01] and for days trump supporters and q anon followers made their january 6 intentions crystal clear the [41:08] phony don't blame us narrative is just one of many being given oxygen by a news environment that allows [41:16] audiences to live in their own alternative reality comfort zones and this is not happening on the dark [41:21] web it is in plain sight on channels that you and your family interact with every day and somehow claim [41:29] to be fair when we come back the destruction we saw on wednesday was unnerving was what we saw the [41:36] beginning or the end stay with us trial by combat fight today is the day american patriots start taking [41:49] down names and kicking ass that was the rhetoric that the trump protesters heard before the mob was created [42:00] and stormed the capitol casey hunt what is the future of mo brooks josh holly and ted cruz in the united states congress [42:10] well chuck i i think it's still an open question but again i think that their colleagues felt in a way that [42:19] they have not experienced before even after four years of the trump administration they were personally in danger and the rhetoric [42:28] that these some of their fellow members as well as the president united states offered on wednesday is [42:35] what led directly to the mob and it was extraordinarily it was an extraordinarily close call in the senate chuck [42:41] the doors were shut just one minute essentially before the mob reached the doors into the chamber and some [42:47] of those heroic actions are what protected the place i think that while many critics will say of course it's too [42:54] little too late for the republican party i think senator toomey reflected the the depth of the change [43:01] that has happened there and i think you know for those of us who have covered and worked in that in [43:05] those hallowed halls for a very very long time it's impossible to overstate the degree to which this [43:11] shook faith in a system that everyone is is supposed to be bought into chuck and that's where i want to go [43:18] here guys is this the beginning of something or the end uh of something jay johnson i want you to react [43:25] to something that adam sewer wrote in the atlantic on thursday the washington post described the [43:29] insurrectionists who stormed the capital as would-be saboteurs of a 244 year old democracy but true [43:35] democracy in america is only 55 years old dating back to 1965 the year the voting rights act guaranteed [43:40] suffrage at least on paper to all citizens regardless of race that we've actually had a 55 years it's been a [43:49] very precarious multi-racial democracy in this country what say you jay johnson chuck uh of the [43:56] many images shocking images from wednesday i think the one that most jolted me was the image that was [44:04] shown earlier on this program of the confederate flag being paraded through the u.s capitol now i have [44:13] ancestors uh my great great grandmother's brother fled slavery in virginia when he was a teenager [44:20] and here he is uh and enlisted in the u.s uh union army to prevent exactly that from happen happening we [44:30] fought an entire civil war to prevent that from happening you know peggy noonan the amount of [44:37] anti-semites racists that were frankly um i guess um mainstreamed by donald trump over the last few years [44:47] has rattled a lot of people's concern about whether this democracy [44:51] is going to hold up what say you oh i say america with its barbaric yawp can shock us and upset us [45:02] um very often we do manage to uh hold on and i expect that will be true but i think for a lot of [45:10] people the indelible image uh of this week is the idea that the capitol this great and grand building [45:18] the one we put on postcards if you visit washington d.c and write home that it could be overrun by vandals [45:27] in a moment that an action could be taken and elected leaders are fleeing for their lives i think [45:35] this was shocked to so many people especially to the young to whom we have to show we don't allow this [45:43] we stop that right now we stopped it this week i hope so hallie jackson what happens to donald trump [45:54] on january 21st he doesn't leave he doesn't go anywhere chuck um physically obviously he'll he's [46:01] gone from the white house he'll be presumably in florida but i have to tell you this is a president [46:06] who is so defiant these calls these ideas that perhaps he would resign it is at this exact moment [46:13] in time almost unthinkable to see how the president would currently retreat in the face of pressure [46:18] something he has almost never before done and certainly not when the stakes are this high i [46:23] thought it was interesting that senator toomey on your show earlier described it as not viable that [46:27] the president could have another shot in 2024 there are people in and around the white house who believe [46:32] the same that the president has in essence disqualified himself perhaps he will say he will run [46:36] but there is not a real sense that he could have an actual shot although chuck the people that's who [46:42] support him the people who he has activated in essence over the last four years they are with [46:46] him until the end and that that group uh is not going anywhere the president will take advantage of a [46:52] media ecosystem not mainstream media but an ecosystem that will give him oxygen for years to come if that [47:01] is what happens and this republican party allows donald trump to still be an influential figure it will [47:07] end up in the ash ash bin of history uh that's all for today thank you for watching we're going to be [47:13] back next week this democracy intact because if it's sunday it's meet the press watch nbc news than any [47:29] other news organization in the world