Meet The Press Broadcast (Full) - April 26th, 2020 — Meet The Press — NBC News

[0:00] This Sunday, risky business. Social distancing must continue. Our economic [0:07] shutdown cannot. Some states reopening their economies. We're gonna have to see [0:12] our cases continue to go up but we're a lot better prepared for that now than we [0:17] were over a month ago. This as millions more file for unemployment. We can't hide [0:21] and fear the rest of our lives. And as the US death toll passes 50,000. If you [0:27] want to live, you stay home. My god, don't open up this country. Plus the [0:31] president versus the scientists. On a coronavirus surge in the fall. It's also [0:36] possible it doesn't come back at all. Next fall and winter, we are gonna have two [0:42] viruses circulating. On testing. We are not in a situation where we say we're [0:47] exactly where we want to be with regards to testing. If you said that I don't [0:50] agree with him. And on injecting disinfectants. Is there a way we can do [0:54] something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleaning. Or using UV rays [1:03] inside the body. That is a treatment. My guest this morning, Dr. Deborah Birx, head [1:08] of the Coronavirus Task Force. Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey. Infectious [1:13] disease specialist Michael Osterholm. And former Georgia gubernatorial [1:17] candidate Stacy Abram. Also the pandemic and the election. How the coronavirus will be a [1:22] huge factor come November. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News [1:27] Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell. Pulmonologist Dr. Vin Gupta [1:31] of the University of Washington. And NBC News Senior Business Correspondent [1:35] Stephanie Ruhle. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press in our continuing [1:41] coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. From NBC News in Washington. The longest [1:47] running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. Good Sunday [1:55] morning. To give you some perspective on how devastating the coronavirus has been. [1:59] Consider this. There have now been more than 900,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in [2:04] the United States. With over 53,000 deaths. Look at that number of deaths for a moment. [2:10] Sometime this week, we're likely to pass the 58,000 lives we lost in Vietnam. That death [2:16] toll took us more than a decade to hit. This has taken us about 12 weeks. In the past seven [2:21] days, at least 17 states in Washington, D.C. have registered their highest ever one-day total [2:27] of coronavirus cases. The national curve may be flattening, but it's flattening at a very high [2:34] level. What's now clear is that we as a country, particularly on the government level, have failed [2:39] to meet the moment. There's not enough testing to understand the challenge we're confronting. [2:43] 26 million people so far are filed for unemployment, wiping out the gains made since the 2008 financial [2:48] crisis. Money is not getting to the small businesses that need it to survive. And the [2:53] President of the United States is floating ideas like injecting disinfectants into sick patients. [2:59] It's against this backdrop that some of the nation's governors are taking the risky step [3:04] of opening their states for business. Behind that decision, a brutal calculation. That the unemployment, [3:10] the hunger, the depression, and the social dislocations of a stalled economy are worse [3:14] than the certainty of an even more larger death toll from COVID-19 as businesses reopen. [3:22] Healthcare experts acknowledge the necessity of getting people back to work, but warn that moving [3:26] too early could invite a second wave with disastrous consequences. Meanwhile, President Trump eyeing the [3:32] election in November is grasping at any idea to stop the virus and get the economy back on track quickly. [3:39] Do you take any responsibility for these 50,000 deaths that have happened in this country? I think [3:45] we've done a great job. As the U.S. death toll continues to climb on Friday, the administration [3:50] scrambled to contain the fallout from the president's suggestion that injecting household disinfectants [3:57] might cure the coronavirus. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out [4:02] in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that [4:07] by injection inside or almost a cleaning? Top administration officials tell NBC News [4:15] that members of the coronavirus task force were shocked by those comments. [4:19] No, I certainly wouldn't recommend the internal ingestion of a disinfectant. [4:24] Surgeon General Jerome Adams warned, please always talk to your health provider first [4:30] before administering any treatment, medication to yourself or a loved one. [4:34] The EPA implored, never apply the product to yourself or others. The CDC tweeted, [4:39] household cleaners and disinfectants can cause health problems when not used properly. [4:44] And Mr. Trump's former FDA commissioner, who advises the task force. [4:48] There's no circumstance under which you should take a disinfectant or inject a disinfectant [4:53] for the treatment of anything. I was asking a sarcastic and a very sarcastic question [4:57] to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside. But it does kill it and it would kill [5:05] it on the hands and that would make things much better. It's just the latest example of the [5:09] president's desperate attempts to peddle treatments for a pandemic that is killing thousands each day. [5:15] For weeks, the president touted the use of a malaria drug to treat the virus. [5:19] Hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine. It's worked unbelievably. [5:26] On Friday, the FDA issued a formal warning against use of the drug, citing heart rhythm problems. [5:32] And the president has broken with the scientists who advise him on the most fundamental questions [5:37] of the federal response. On testing. [5:39] We absolutely need to significantly ramp up not only the number of tests, but the capacity to actually [5:50] perform them. No, I don't agree with him on that. No, I think we're doing a great job in testing. [5:54] And on the virus's timeline. It may not come back at all. [5:58] We will have coronavirus in the fall. And joining me now is the response [6:03] coordinator for the White House Coronavirus Task Force, Dr. Deborah Birx. Dr. Birx, [6:07] welcome back to Meet the Press. And let me start with the issue of reopening. [6:14] And that is the four states right now that are doing some phase of it. None of these four states [6:21] are meeting the guidelines that you laid out about 10 days ago of what these phased reopenings would [6:27] look like. What metrics each state should be looking for before they begin this. This wasn't a mandate. [6:32] They were guidelines. I grant you that. How concerned are you that we are up to four states not [6:38] following these federal guidelines? We put out the gating criteria to be very clear [6:46] about what epidemiologic pieces we thought were critical, what health care delivery pieces we [6:52] thought were critical, and what surveillance and monitoring pieces were critical. And we still [6:57] believe strongly that those are the best public health recommendations to every state and every [7:02] governor to follow. Would you advise any one of these states that have reopened right now, Georgia, [7:09] South Carolina, Alaska, Oklahoma to be reopening right now? Well, each state is different. And [7:16] the reason we made the guidelines and gating criteria very specific was also, and I'm sure a [7:22] lot of people have missed the asterisk, and it's said to look not only statewide, but also county by [7:28] county. And I've been very struck by how different the outbreaks are from the metro regions to the rural [7:35] regions to the county regions. And that's why we look at things in a very granular way. And governors [7:41] should be doing the same because there are areas of every state that are much more stable and much more [7:47] spared this epidemic than other areas of states. Are you concerned, though, that if you have already four [7:55] states not following the guidelines that you laid out, more states appear to be ready to possibly do that [8:01] as well, that we end up losing all the ground that we've gained over the last six weeks? [8:12] I've had really very good conversations with a series of governors, and they've really been very [8:18] insightful of how they're looking at this. They understand the risk and they talk about this not [8:24] as turning on a light switch, but slowly turning up the dimmer, very slowly. And that's why these are [8:32] in phases, and each phase carries a very specific piece. And to all the American people, please read [8:38] those phases, because it was very clear that if you have pre-existing conditions or you're the elderly [8:45] with pre-existing conditions and have risk factors, we strongly recommended that you continue to shelter in [8:51] place and continue to be protected and continue to follow all the guidelines. And anybody that you [8:57] interact with, ensure that they're also following the guidelines very carefully. [9:01] Well, now that actually gets me to my next topic with you, and that is the issue of testing. [9:07] I'd actually, instead of me asking the question, I'd like to get you to respond to Bill Gates. [9:11] Here's what he said to a colleague of mine yesterday on the testing issue. [9:15] Of all the things I'm most surprised about the federal government response, [9:21] the unwillingness to get involved in test prioritization is the most amazing. [9:28] We have 330 million people and our testing capacity is under 200,000 a day. [9:34] Mr. Birx, I know you've had your own, you've worked with the Gates Foundation in the past, [9:40] so I should set that aside there a second. How would you respond to him? [9:44] I think he's very clearly, there's a piece of us that have worked together to do two things. [9:52] And I think what's really important is for the American public to understand how we're doing [9:56] these tests right now. Uniquely, we're using nucleic acid testing. What does that mean? [10:01] You're actually sampling for the live virus in people's nose or in people's throats. And then [10:07] you have to expand that doing what we call nucleic acid testing. So this is not like a flu test or a [10:13] strep test. So when we talked to the commercial companies almost seven weeks ago, eight weeks ago, [10:20] we asked every single corporation and every single diagnostic company that had nucleic acid testing [10:26] capacity on their platforms, which is primarily HIV and HPV, and makes tests for those platforms. [10:34] And in less than two to three weeks, every single one of these platforms are up and running. [10:39] Now, what we did with the states, and I think what Mr. Gates points out very clearly, is what did we do [10:46] with the states to ensure that we've identified all those platforms? And you know, over a week ago, [10:51] we sent out to states every single platform where it was located, over 5,000 platforms across the states [10:59] and showing geographically and by zip code where they're located. That's allowing us to work closely [11:05] with the states to unlock that full potential and to prioritize first states that have had outbreaks, [11:12] but also states that need to do active surveillance. What we talked about, asymptomatic surveillance to [11:18] really find cases before people have symptoms. And that's what we're doing right now with every single [11:23] state. Look, the debate about testing, and I know the president gets defensive and claims that testing [11:29] has been a success story. What it does feel is if there's a hesitance to use the Defense Production Act [11:36] in order, whether it's swabs, whether it's getting these reagents, whether it's forcing these labs to [11:42] process things faster, guaranteeing some funding for it. Why the hesitance inside that task force? [11:48] I think all of those pieces are discussed with inside the task force, from generation of swabs to generation [11:57] of tubes and the media. I think what people don't see behind the scenes is how FDA have worked with [12:03] corporations to really change the number of swabs that can be utilized. If you remember, just four [12:09] weeks ago, we were recommending these nasopharyngeal swabs and we've moved to multiple different swabs, [12:15] multiple different extraction media. The intent is to continue to scale with the support of states and [12:21] working with states to continue to scale testing. But at the same time, we have to realize that we have [12:27] to have a breakthrough innovation in testing. We have to be able to detect antigen rather than [12:33] constantly trying to detect the actual live virus or the viral particles itself and to really move [12:39] into antigen testing. And I know corporations and diagnostics are working on that now. We have to have [12:45] a breakthrough. This RNA testing will carry us certainly through the spring and summer, but we need to [12:52] have a huge technology breakthrough and we're working on that at the same time. [12:58] So essentially what you're saying is we don't have, you don't think we have the capacity to ramp up [13:03] the testing you would like because we need this, we basically need a breakthrough for easier testing? [13:10] No, I think we have other technology that we think can come online within the next two to three weeks [13:16] that will be a breakthrough in the RNA type testing. But I think also just for ease of use, [13:22] finding out how we can do antigen type testing like they do with flu, [13:26] it can be used as a screening test and then you can do the actual RNA testing for a confirmatory test, [13:33] just allows you to screen large numbers of individuals quickly. [13:39] The Vice President on Friday said that by Memorial Day, in fact, I want to read the quote [13:45] exactly here, that by Memorial Day, the epidemic, I think honestly, if you look at the trends today, [13:51] that I think by Memorial Day weekend, we will largely have this coronavirus epidemic behind us. [13:58] This Memorial Day 2020, is that realistic that it's behind us? Can you explain what he means by that? [14:06] I think he means that in the models and in tracking our actual data, because previously we were using [14:14] models based on data from around the world, and now we're very much tracking every single outbreak [14:20] in the United States separately. And if you look at those outbreaks over time, and you look at places [14:26] like Louisiana, if you look at Houston, if you look at Detroit, and you look at how they reach their peak [14:33] and come down, and what those cases look like as they come down, it gives us great hope when you project out [14:40] Boston and Chicago, and certainly the New York Metro, which we're all very still focused on. I mean, [14:45] they still have 45 or so percent of the entire cases in the United States, and the majority, about 40 to 50 [14:54] percent of the mortality. So we continue to watch this very closely, but that's where the projections take us, [15:00] and it's very much based on Detroit, Louisiana, and other groups. And then looking at Seattle that never [15:07] really reached a peak and has never really had a large outbreak, and trying to understand what we [15:13] can do as a people to ensure social distancing will be with us through the summer to really ensure that [15:20] we protect one another as we move through these phases. Dr. Burst, help me understand what happened [15:27] with the suggestion that the president made that the task force study disinfected injections. You said [15:34] he was digesting information at the time when that came out of his mouth. Do you have any more [15:41] information, and are you concerned that people might take bleach because of what the president said? [15:48] I think I made it very clear, and how I interpreted that, I also made it very clear, [15:55] and so has Dr. Fauci and everyone associated with the task force and their clarity around, [16:01] this is not a treatment. What was missed, and really I'm hoping the American people understand, [16:07] the reason why that study was important that Department of Homeland Security did was when we came [16:14] and saw what MIT talked about as viral particles moving through the air. It's really important to figure [16:20] out in the outside conditions. Is there anything that decreases the half-life of that virus, and I [16:28] think I was reassured personally to see what impact sunlight has on the virus and the viral half-life. [16:34] That should be encouraging to all of us. We should still social distance. We should still wear those [16:39] masks to protect others as we work through this epidemic, but I think it's really important to see [16:45] that sunlight, direct sunlight, may actually be able to kill the virus. Are you concerned the credibility [16:54] of the scientists on the task force get undermined when the president now with bleach? Obviously you [17:01] can't do that in hydroxychloroquine where the FDA had to put out a statement. I mean, is this undermining [17:06] the credibility of you and Dr. Fauci and other scientists? I think all of us are very clear and very [17:15] clear in our discussions with the American people how we're looking and utilizing data to drive [17:20] decision-making within the task force. Every day about 2 30 in the morning I get every single piece [17:26] of data coming in from every county where we triangulate where is the virus moving, how are people [17:32] responding to the virus, are we considering absolutely everything to protect American people, [17:38] and triangulating that data to come up with that day's work. Where should PPE go, where should we be [17:45] really talking with governors about a recent outbreak? How do we protect individuals that [17:49] are in central services? This is the discussion of the task force and the physicians and the individuals [17:57] involved in the task force are every day focused on what's the most recent scientific evidence. And I [18:03] think what really the American people should understand is in the guidelines that the NIH recently published [18:10] really helpful were put up this week to really talk about how to clinically approach [18:14] this. But we've had really critical data that has come to the forefront over the last few days about [18:21] how this virus is interacting with people in the United States. And I think that's really critical. [18:26] We need to constantly be focusing on what we're learning to save more lives and to make our treatment more [18:32] effective. Dr. Birx, I have to leave it there. I appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's view. [18:39] Stay safe and healthy yourself. Thank you. When we come back, I'll talk to the governor of the second [18:49] hardest hit state in the country, as well as to an infectious disease expert who says we haven't fully [18:54] grasped how profound a crisis we're facing. And as we go to break this Sunday morning, images of a pandemic [19:00] beginning with the new look for members of the House of Representatives. Welcome back. Next to New York, [19:08] the hardest hit state in the country has been New Jersey. There have been over 105,000 cases in New [19:14] Jersey. A stay at home order has been in effect since March 21st. And Governor Phil Murphy says the [19:19] state is probably weeks away from jumpstarting its economy. And Governor Murphy joins me now. [19:25] And Governor, you've made note of these at your briefings. Sadly, we just did the math and I believe [19:30] your death toll now surpasses the combined death toll of New Jerseyans who died fighting in Vietnam, [19:37] Korea and World War One. So I do think the scope of this continues to set in. But let me start with [19:45] where you believe the state of New Jersey is right now and how far away you think you are from phase one [19:53] incremental reopening of the economy. Chuck, good to be with you. You're absolutely right. And we have [20:01] suffered an extraordinary toll and loss of life. I think best in the best understanding of the data [20:08] right now is that we are still a number of weeks away. The fatalities continue to be significant [20:15] each and every day. Our positive test curve has flattened and that's a good thing. More importantly, [20:21] hospitalizations have started to come down. ICU and ventilator use down a little bit. Those are good [20:27] signs. But we're not out of the woods yet. I think we're several weeks away and the big mantra and our [20:32] state's done a really good job of this, I have to say, I give a shout out to our residents, [20:36] the mandate to stay at home and stay away from each other is still very much in effect until we [20:42] can break the back of this curve. Have you decided if you're going to have a statewide order that will [20:51] essentially govern everybody the same? Or do you think you're going to cordon off, you've got South [20:56] Jersey, you're going to have the Jersey Shore may have one set of timelines and reopening and of course, [21:01] northern New Jersey with another. What path do you imagine taking on a reopening? [21:10] Yeah, you're absolutely right. The metro New York counties up in our northeast part of the state have [21:15] been crushed. But it's important to note that we've got positive test results in each of our 21 counties. [21:23] And sadly, we have fatalities in each of our 21 counties. So while we haven't made that decision, [21:29] we have as a healthcare matter, this is a month or six weeks ago, separated the state into regions, [21:35] north, central and south, that has proven to be effective. We just opened up with the Army Corps, [21:42] a field medical station in Atlantic City in the south last week. So I suspect Chuck, while we haven't [21:48] made a decision on that, we're going to move as one state recognizing you've got density issues in the [21:54] north that you just don't have in the south. You're going to be needing some money from the federal [22:00] government. You know, it looks like it's going to be probably a little bit of a back and forth [22:05] inside of Congress. If you don't get a federal bailout or federal reimbursement money, what are the [22:12] first services do you think you'd have to start cutting back on if the federal government either [22:17] limited or didn't give you some money to deal with this pandemic? Yeah, I mean, let me say this, [22:24] we've had constructive conversations and exchanges and we're on with the White House morning, [22:29] noon and night on health care, on testing, on financial matters. I have to reiterate what [22:34] Senator McConnell said about letting states go bankrupt was both irresponsible and not factual. [22:40] And to your question, we won't go bankrupt, but we'll gut the living daylights out of things like [22:45] educators, first responders, the very folks we desperately need. This is the health care crisis [22:52] of all time in our country's history. We need states to be fully funded at the point of attack, [22:58] being there for our residents. And so we need a big slug, not just New Jersey. There's a bill Senator [23:04] Menendez and Senator Cassidy, I might add bipartisan is sponsored for $500 billion. That's exactly what [23:10] the doctor ordered. Governor, one of the challenges that I feel like is going to be unique to both you [23:17] and Governor Cuomo, is this issue of when Manhattan can open up. And when, as somebody pointed out to me, [23:27] you might be able to create office space that is socially distanced. You can phase people in, [23:33] but how do you get on the New Jersey trains with social distancing and run enough trains to make it [23:38] work? How do you get on the subway and still have social distancing? This mass transportation issue in the [23:44] age of social distancing. Do you have a, do you have an idea yet of how you're going to tackle this? [23:51] I don't have a crisp one word answer, but the new, the next normal is going to be a new normal and a [23:56] different normal than we've had in the past without question. And Chuck, it's part of the reason why we [24:01] have formed a regional council with six other states and most importantly, our neighbors in particular, [24:08] New York. In this case, we got to figure this stuff out together. Governor Cuomo and I and [24:13] others of our neighbors worked very closely together as we shut things down. We have got to [24:19] do the exact same thing as we reopen and mass transit commuting generally. What does a workplace [24:25] look like? What are the new norms going to be? Clearly testing as, as you discussed with Dr. [24:31] Birx. I mean, these are all elements that we need to deal with, not just within our state, [24:35] but we have to deal with our regional partners and none more important for us than New York City and New [24:41] York State. Well, look, that's just one of many things that are going to be a challenge, [24:46] I think, in the next months and perhaps years. Governor Murphy, uh, thanks for spending a few [24:51] minutes with us, uh, Democratic governor from New Jersey, uh, and sharing your views. I appreciate it. [24:57] Thanks for having me, Chuck. And joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He is the director of the [25:02] Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. And I want to begin, [25:08] uh, Dr. Osterholm with, with you to respond to something Dr. Birx said earlier on the show. [25:13] She essentially seemed to imply that we can't ramp up testing as we know it and that the only way [25:20] we're going to solve our testing problem is with essentially a breakthrough. Uh, is she right? Is that [25:27] throwing in the towel on testing too early? Well, she's partially right, but let's just be really [25:33] clear. There are three major problems with testing right now. One, we don't have the reagents. Our [25:37] government is not working with private sector companies as all the other governments of the world are [25:42] now seeking testing to understand how to best ramp up these reagents that we do need. Number two is, [25:48] we have the wild, wild west for testing right now. The FDA has all but given up its oversight [25:53] responsibility for the tests we have on the market. Many of them are nothing short of a disaster. [25:59] And we, we got into that place because of the fact once CDC had a problem, the FDA just opened the [26:04] gate and we have a lot of bad tests on the market right now. The third thing is these tests just [26:09] don't perform well in low prevalent populations, meaning that right now if you were to test for [26:14] antibody in most places in the United States, over half the tests would be false positives. [26:18] So what we need is a major new initiative on testing that gets away from every day just saying how many [26:24] people got tested. We're missing the mark in a big way right now. Is this, given what we have now, [26:32] I mean, it sounds like does the, does the federal government, does the president need to use this [26:36] defense production act in order to force these private companies to make these reagents? Well, [26:44] that's part of the answer. But remember, the whole world wants these reagents right now. It's just not the [26:48] United States. And so we're competing against the world. What we haven't done is really just been [26:54] clear with the public or with, in many cases, the people who are making these tests, what we want. [27:00] You know, there's just far too much happy talk. There is not enough. What do we need? What is it [27:05] going to take to get us there? And how are we going to do it? And so even today, it's all about excuses [27:10] about what we're doing for testing or not. Where is our strategic plan that lays out why we're going [27:16] to use the test? How we're going to use the test? When will it be available? And we don't have that. [27:22] Lay out the next 12 months. You've been, you've been basically a reality check for a lot of us over [27:27] the last couple of weeks on, as you just called it, happy talk. So Vice President Pence said this is [27:35] going to be behind us largely by Memorial Day. My initial instinct was Memorial Day 2021 or 2020. [27:42] What is your instinct? Well, first of all, let's just take the numbers. At most, 5 to 15 percent [27:50] of the United States has been infected to date. With all the experience we've had so far, [27:54] this virus is going to keep transmitting. It's going to keep trying to find humans to do what it does [27:59] until we get at least 60 or 70 percent of the people infected. That's what it'll take to get herd immunity. [28:05] You know, Chuck, we're in the very earliest days of this situation right now. You know, [28:09] if I could just briefly say one story here. Right after 9-11, I spent a number of days up at your [28:16] studios doing filming around the issue of what was happening. And your late, the predecessor here, [28:22] the late Tim Rustert used to say to me all the time, hi, doc, how you doing? Is the big one here yet? [28:27] And I would always say, no, Tim, it's not. If he asked me today, is the big one here? Is it coming? I [28:32] would say, Tim, this is the big one. And it's going to be here for the next 16 to 18 months. [28:37] And people don't get that yet. We're just on the very first stages. When I hear New York talking [28:42] about the fact they're down on the backside of the mountain, I know they've been through hell. [28:46] And that's an important statement. But they have to understand that's not the mountain, [28:50] that's the foothills. They have mountains to go yet. We have a lot of people to get infected [28:54] before this is over. Vaccine or herd immunity, what's more likely? Well, herd immunity is clearly [29:04] going to happen if we don't have a vaccine. I do think that we have a better chance of a vaccine than [29:08] some. The statement that came out yesterday from the World Health Organization suggesting [29:12] there may not be immunity was misinterpreted to mean that we don't have evidence today that you [29:17] are protected from humans. But we have actually animal model data, monkeys that have been infected [29:22] intentionally and then re-challenged that were protected. We have a new study on Friday that said [29:27] vaccine protected them. So I think we're going to have it. I just don't think it's going to be soon. [29:31] And we're in virus time right now, not human time. And so what we can get done in the next 16 to 18 months, [29:37] that's great. But if we don't, we won't have a vaccine in time to protect most of the people in [29:42] the world. Dr. Osterholm, thank you for coming on and giving us your expertise and frankly, [29:49] a bit of a timeline reality check. When we come back, President Trump says the U.S. response to the [29:55] coronavirus pandemic is the envy of the world. Is it? The panelists next. And as we go to break, [30:01] if there's a good thing about this economic crisis, it's been the clean air and views we haven't seen for a [30:07] long time. Take a look. Welcome back. The panel is with us from their remote locations. [30:27] NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, pulmonologist Dr. Vin Gupta of [30:31] the University of Washington and NBC News senior business correspondent Stephanie Ruhle. And as you [30:35] can see here, guys, I wanted to basically hit three big things here on the government's response [30:41] on the economics, on health and on politics. As of this morning, more than 53,000 Americans have died. [30:47] Less than two percent of the population has been tested. And even the trillions Congress has [30:51] approved isn't nearly enough and often isn't getting to the people who need it. Andrea Mitchell, [30:56] I want to start with the political response collectively. There's the president and then [31:02] there's everyone else. And I don't know how much of it you believe the president is sort of [31:06] coloring the the atmosphere, which is why it looks like Congress is slow off the mark here, [31:13] or we're just got to be prepared for a polarized Congress going forward. [31:17] Well, I think the president is going his own way with misinformation with those daily briefings, [31:25] which we now are told he is suspending. He's finally backing off. I'll believe it when I see it [31:31] after this weekend as to whether he resumes, because he so needs to fill his own demand, [31:37] his need for self-congratulation really, and for to show what he believes his leadership that we've [31:46] seen dangerous, toxic advice coming from the White House. And unfortunately, I think that the credibility [31:52] of the scientists really now is on the line that they have to decide whether to stay inside and be [31:58] valuable or whether or not they have to see another alternative like Jim Mattis and quit. [32:03] Because when Dr. Birx said to you today that sunlight does kill the virus, she is perpetuating [32:11] an unscientific, untested, single study presented by a non-scientist from the Department of Homeland [32:17] Security, which led to the president, as she put it, not fully digesting the data. She needed to be [32:24] very clear on disavowing it. And to this point, she still has not been even this morning. [32:31] Dr. Gupta, are you worried that Dr. Birx is letting her credibility get sort of sucked [32:38] into the Trump vortex? I really admire Dr. Birx. And yeah, I have to say that [32:48] whether it was not pushing back strongly enough on Georgia's willingness to liberalize social [32:54] distancing, and especially when it came to tattoo parlors, I can understand if we want to liberalize [33:01] the notion of how we think about what is essential and non-essential to what's safe and not safe. [33:07] But to not push back on that two parlors and that policy by the Georgia governor to me was the start [33:13] of the pattern. And so I do think as somebody that admires her and her history in public health [33:19] and our armed forces, it does appear that there's some degree of filter on what she says. And she is [33:26] minding her words instead of, as Andrea says, coming out and saying the truth and just being [33:32] direct about it. [33:32] Dr. I want to stay with you here a second, Dr. Gupta, and ask you about the testing comments [33:39] that she made. That really struck me as one of the headlines out of the interview when she basically [33:43] acknowledged maybe the wrong word because there may be disputes about this, but essentially saying [33:49] the current situation, we're not going to be able to ramp up testing under the current situation. [33:55] Do you concur with her on that? Or do you think that's just sort of, [33:58] they're just trying to come up with an explanation to follow the policy the president wants? [34:04] I think she's right. Actually, we need outside the box thinking. And so she's spot on. [34:09] Under the current situation, Dr. Ulsterholm beautifully laid it out that right now, [34:14] every new technology that the FDA is putting out there largely is constrained by the same supply [34:20] chain bottlenecks that Chuck, you and I have talked endlessly about swabs reagents. He just said it, [34:25] he just laid it out. That's why we need more of a focus on interesting new creative outside the box [34:32] thinking innovations like the Rutgers scientists on saliva. By definition, circumnavigating the [34:38] supply chain bottlenecks. You spit in the tube, potentially you can mail it to a lab if you do it [34:43] at home. That's not that far off. So right now, under the way we're thinking about it, the inside the box [34:50] constrained thinking. Yes, I think she's correct. Stephanie Ruhl, I want to move to the economy [34:58] here. And we saw the sort of what some said, you know, was an additional amount of money. And look, [35:04] half a billion, half a trillion dollars is not chump change. But considering where we are, [35:09] do you think it's sustainable for Congress to look at this sector by sector when they come up with [35:15] bailouts? Or this idea that a few members of Congress have of covering all payrolls for a while, [35:21] is that going to end up being the path we have to go down? We're getting closer and closer to that [35:28] idea, Chuck, because if this is a natural disaster, an act of God, and Congress wants to say, [35:34] let's put a bear hug around the economy, because we've asked the country to basically shut down, [35:40] then they're going to have to find a different mechanism to support all businesses. Because right [35:45] now, as you mentioned it, yes, the CARES Act is adding an additional over 500 billion dollars. [35:51] But you know, it's not reaching every business. The head of the Small Business Association says, [35:56] every hour, another small business is closing. And even though there may be pent up demand, [36:01] and everybody wants to get back out there and get to work, it's not going to work that way. [36:06] We're a consumer-based economy. People aren't rushing back to the store. [36:12] And Stephanie, the issue of sector by sector, I've been thinking about the politics of [36:16] bailing out oil companies, or the politics of bailing out casinos, or the politics of those [36:21] things, bailing out athletics, for instance. And it can look bad politically, but there's a whole [36:27] bunch of jobs that are connected to that. How do you avoid that sort of political winners and losers [36:33] unless you go this, cover everybody's payroll the same way? Unfortunately, you don't. And those who [36:41] are the have-nots are going to be the ones who are furious that they're left out. We know from Bill [36:46] Gates and a number of others. This is disproportionately hurting the poorest, [36:51] or those who don't have big lobbying efforts. So yes, you can see big oil demanding, saying, [36:56] we need to call this an act of God. You need to protect us, or the cruise industry. But I promise you, [37:02] small restaurants and barbershops don't have that. So even if we're saying, well, [37:06] the small business effort is to help those small businesses, there are 30 million small businesses [37:11] in this country. And the first round of small business help only got 1.7 million loans out [37:16] there. It certainly didn't reach everyone. You know, Andrea, it is pretty clear that we are going, [37:25] that the campaign is going to turn into, who do you trust to handle the pandemic recovery here? [37:32] But we may not be through the health crisis at the same time. It's really going to complicate our [37:37] politics. Absolutely. And it is already, who do you trust? We see it in the polling that people, [37:45] most people in our poll and other polls, don't want to reopen as rapidly as the president and [37:51] some supporters, what could be a new emerging Tea Party movement, are pressing. But I think that the [37:56] American people are going to be very afraid. This economy, according to Kevin Hassett, who's come back [38:01] into the administration as a top economist, people are going to see that it's not going to flip back on. [38:07] It is going to be slow and in phases. And I'm very concerned also that the president, [38:13] what he did with West Point, for instance, showing that he needs to go to West Point, [38:18] blindsiding West Point, just because he saw Mike Pence going to the Air Force Academy, [38:22] West Point isn't prepared to announce that they're bringing all those cadets back. That's the kind of [38:25] thing we have to be really worried about. Yeah, where the president's worried about the president [38:31] first. Anyway, thank you, all three of you. When we come back, we're going to take a close look at how [38:36] some counties that may determine the 2020 presidential election are faring during the pandemic. [38:41] But first, going around the country to say, I do, through a face mask. Data download time and a good [39:05] time to check in on the five battleground state counties we're watching in our county to county [39:10] project to see how they're faring during the coronavirus pandemic. First, Maricopa County, [39:15] Arizona, home to Phoenix. As of Friday, there were over 3,100 confirmed cases of COVID-19 and 120 people [39:20] had died. That may sound like a lot, but on a per capita basis, the county is doing pretty well, [39:26] much better than the national average. Now, that could be because it's a sprawling jurisdiction where [39:30] social distancing is easier to achieve. Compare that with Kent County, Michigan, [39:35] home to Grand Rapids, one we are watching for how establishment Republicans may feel about the 2020 [39:40] matchup. With over 900 cases and 29 deaths, it's a bit closer to the national per capita average. [39:46] Perhaps most striking in Kent is the unemployment rate. It has jumped from 2.4% to 16% already in [39:53] just two months. And the rate of cases per capita goes up a bit more when we look at Beaver County, [39:58] Pennsylvania, near Pittsburgh. 337 cases and 47 deaths. A jump in cases there came from nursing [40:04] homes, which we've seen in other aging blue-collar communities. Milwaukee County, with its large urban [40:11] African-American population, has been particularly hard hit. As of Friday, there have been roughly [40:15] 2,400 confirmed cases and 154 deaths, very close to the national average for rate of infection. [40:21] Finally, there's Miami-Dade County in Florida, the hardest hit of our five counties that we're [40:25] watching. It is the largest number of cases and deaths of our group, and it has the highest rate [40:30] of infection, well over the national average. This election may well hinge on President Trump's [40:35] response to the COVID-19 crisis and how these counties respond themselves may tell us a lot [40:41] about which way they tilt in November. When we come back, I'll talk to Stacey Abrams [40:46] about her goal to become Joe Biden's running mate. Welcome back. Stacey Abrams became a national [40:54] figure when she lost the Georgia governor's race to Brian Kemp in 2018 by just over a percentage point, [41:00] though she never conceded amid charges of Republican-led voter suppression. [41:05] Abrams is high on a list of women Joe Biden is considering as his running mate, [41:08] and she has been unusually candid in openly promoting herself for the role. She's also [41:13] created the organization Fair Fight to combat voter suppression around the country, and Stacey Abrams [41:18] joins me now from Atlanta. Stacey Abrams, welcome back to Meet the Press, and let me just start with [41:24] the situation in Georgia right now. It's very possible you could be governor right now making these [41:31] decisions about when to reopen. Do you believe any businesses right now are ready to reopen in the [41:39] state of Georgia? I think that reopening business until we have increased our testing and decreased [41:46] our infection rate is wrongheaded. There is no logic to it. It defies the science that we know, [41:52] and it ignores the fact that Georgia has the 14th highest infection rate and the seventh slowest [41:58] testing rate. Those businesses that are being promoted for opening are the businesses that require [42:03] contact, nail salons, hairdressing, tattoos. These are not places that need to be open. We need to be [42:11] focusing on our frontline workers who are in essential businesses, making sure we're testing those who [42:16] need the help, and then move to reopen when we're ready. You've called this decision by Governor Kemp [42:22] a political decision. I'm just curious how you think this benefits him politically. He's taking grief from [42:29] the president. You and the president are on the same side on this one when it comes to the speed of reopening [42:34] Georgia. So it doesn't look like it's benefiting him politically, but what's your take on it? [42:40] Well, I give Donald Trump zero credit for backing away from this because he incited it [42:45] with his liberation of the states narrative. I think Brian Kemp was responding to that call and [42:51] decided to wrong-headedly move forward. And unfortunately, as a result, he found himself crossways with the [42:57] president with Mike Pence nodding pathetically at the same time about ingesting Clorox as the [43:02] president gave more false information to the public. But I think all three of these men [43:07] have misserved Georgia and misserved the country. How would you launch a national testing strategy if [43:13] you were running the federal government right now? I think what Congress has put in place, [43:18] the investment in testing equipment and funding for our frontline workers, especially for our hospitals, [43:23] is critical. But I would also be encouraging states like Georgia and the other southern states [43:28] and Midwestern states that have refused to expand Medicaid to do so immediately. [43:32] Part of testing is making sure people trust that they can go and be tested. [43:36] And right now there's an adequate equipment and an adequate strategy. We should increase production. [43:42] We should make certain it's not simply the testing that's available, but the mechanics, [43:45] the swabs, the vials, and that we are funding people on the front lines to do this work to put [43:51] themselves in harm's way to make sure we can test, trace, and track. [43:55] I'm going to ask you the VP question. I've been interested in watching. Your answer on this [44:03] question has evolved over the last year. You started with giving the very sort of careful [44:09] answer is number one, I don't believe in you run for second place. And then you said a few months [44:13] later, I'd be honored to be considered. And then earlier this week, you made the case that you'd be an [44:18] excellent running mate. Do you believe you'd be the best running mate Joe Biden could find? [44:23] Joe Biden is going to be the president of the United States, and he and his team are going to [44:28] decide who should be his running mate. He's been very clear that he wants someone that he is compatible [44:34] with, someone with the skills and the capacity to help him lead and help us recover from four years [44:40] of incompetence and chaos. And I think a President Joe Biden will know the kind of team he needs. [44:45] I'm the daughter of two ministers. I was raised to tell the truth. And so when I'm asked a question, [44:50] I answer it as directly and honestly as I can. And as a young black girl growing up in Mississippi, [44:55] I learned that if I didn't speak up for myself, no one else would. So I'm not my mission is to [45:01] say out loud, if I'm asked the question, yes, I would be willing to serve. But I know that there [45:06] is a process that will be played out that Joe Biden is going to put together the best team possible. [45:11] And I believe that he will pick the person he needs. [45:14] Do you worry that no matter how qualified you are on paper that the perception you've not run [45:19] a large organization as an executive office holder or have not won statewide is a knock against you? [45:27] For the last year and a half, I have run three national organizations, including [45:32] Fair Fight 2020, which is in 18 states protecting the right to vote. I've been traveling the country [45:38] promoting a census that is accurate and that helps us prepare for the next pandemic and for [45:43] redistricting. And I've been working to make certain that poor families, especially those [45:46] in the South, but around the country have the services they need. I believe in doing the work. [45:51] I've been doing it since the day I did not become governor and I will continue to do so. [45:55] And I do so at a national level because I understand that while I may be grounded in Georgia [46:00] and a daughter of the South, my responsibility is to do the work to make sure all of our communities [46:05] are healthy and safe and able to participate in our democracy. [46:09] Would it be a mistake if Joe Biden didn't pick a woman of color to be his running mate? [46:14] I think President Biden will do what he has always done, which is respect and value communities of [46:20] color. I think he understands that black communities and people of color are vital [46:24] to the success of the Democratic Party. And I think he's going to pick the right person. [46:29] I, of course, think that a woman of color can bring certain attributes. We have to lift up [46:33] marginalized communities, communities that do not trust that they will be served because they've been [46:38] the hardest hit by this pandemic. In the state of Georgia alone, while we're only 32% of the [46:43] population, African Americans comprise 54% of the deaths. And so, yes, having a woman of color [46:49] on the ticket will help promote not only diversity, but trust. But I trust Joe Biden to pick the person [46:55] he thinks is the right running mate for him. [46:58] Stacey Abrams, Democrat from Georgia, practicing your version of staying healthy, social distancing from [47:05] your house, from my house to your house. Anyway, thank you for coming on and sharing your views. [47:09] Much appreciated. Thank you. Take care. That's all for today. Thank you for watching. And as always, [47:16] stay safe. And we'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's meet the price. [47:20] DC news than any other news organization in the world.