Major Revelations in Savannah Guthrie Interview, and Possible Sheridan Gorman Murder Gang Connection

[0:00] Hey, everyone. I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I should have done this [0:03] yesterday, but I'm going to do it today. Happy birthday, Steve Krakauer. It was his birthday. [0:09] We forgot to say it on the air, but we love him. He's our executive producer. He's been with us [0:12] since the beginning of the show and doesn't get nearly enough credit for all the hard work and [0:17] amazing, amazing contributions he makes to not just the show, but the entire company, [0:22] MK Media and all of our programs there and MK True Crime and all of it. So, Steve, we love you. [0:28] Happy birthday. Okay, today, wow, wow, unbelievable news breaking. We've, first of all, [0:34] got more on our investigation into the murder of 18-year-old college student Sheridan Gorman [0:39] in Chicago. This poor, poor girl. Blago's going to be here. Yes, former Illinois Governor Rod [0:45] Blagojevich, friend of the show, and why he does not think we're getting the full story [0:49] about the suspected killer, Venezuela illegal immigrant Jose Medina. Wait until you hear what [0:56] he has to say. Obviously, he knows Illinois. [0:58] And he's got thoughts on how they're misleading us in his estimation. But we begin with the latest [1:06] on Nancy Guthrie and what, what an update we have. The 84-year-old mother of NBC anchor Savannah [1:12] Guthrie has not been seen since January 31st. Authorities believe she was forcibly abducted [1:18] in the early hours overnight, Saturday night, January 31st into Sunday, February 1st. This [1:25] was out of her Tucson, Arizona home, one hour away from the meth. [1:29] This morning, we heard for the first time from Savannah at length in an interview. Sitting down [1:37] with Hoda Kotb on the Today Show for her first interview since the kidnapping. Here she is [1:43] describing the moment she learned her mother, Nancy, was missing. And my sister called me [1:48] and I said, is everything okay? And she said, no. She said, mom's missing. And I said, what? [1:58] What are you talking about? She said, she's gone. [2:02] And we, she was in a panic. I was in a panic. I'm like, call 911. She's like, I did. We've called [2:13] them. They're here. And we thought that she must have had like some kind of medical episode in the [2:21] night and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come, uh, because the back doors were propped [2:28] open, you know, and that didn't make any sense. We thought maybe they came and there was a [2:34] stretcher and they took her out the back. [2:37] But her phone was there and her purse was there and all her things. And it just didn't make any [2:44] sense. So, you know, Annie and Tommy had already called all the hospitals, but then I'm like, I'm [2:51] going to call the hospital. So then I started calling the hospitals and, and the police were [2:56] there and talking to her at the same time. And it was just chaos and disbelief. [3:01] There is so much more to get to, including real information about the investigation that was [3:09] divulged, which I have in a few seconds. [3:10] We're going to play for you. We want to bring in our experts. James Hamilton is a former FBI [3:15] supervisory special agent and creator of the FBI's close protection school, which is a specialized [3:20] training program designed for agents to protect high level individuals or officials. Eric O'Neill [3:28] is a former FBI counterintelligence operative and author of the book spies lies and cyber crime. [3:33] He helped catch one of the most notorious spies in U S history. And Randy Sutton is a [3:40] 35 year old FBI agent and author of the book spies lies and cyber crime. He helped catch [3:40] a 24 year law enforcement veteran and founder of the wounded blue. Don't miss a moment. 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And she she talked about, you know, calling the hospitals and disbelief and not [5:35] really understanding. Then she went on. Hold on. She went on to talk about how there was [5:39] no way her mother could have wandered off. And she. [5:42] She added new details from there. Take a listen here to stop to. She can't wander off. My [5:48] mom, her. She was in tremendous pain. Her back was very bad. You know, she was trying [5:56] to on a good day. She could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not. [6:03] So there was no wander off and the doors were popped open. And there was blood on the front [6:10] doorstep. And the ring camera had been yanked off. Yeah. [6:16] So we were saying this is do something. This is not OK. Yeah. This isn't something is very [6:25] wrong here. So there you have new information, which we had not heard before, James, about [6:34] the door, the back door being propped open, propped open, she said. Now, she mentioned [6:40] the blood on the doorstep that we knew. And we've got an update on the blood, too, that [6:44] we'll get to in a minute. But that was an interesting detail that the back door was [6:48] open and it was propped open. [6:51] And and really kind of putting to rest once and for all the idea that Nancy Guthrie walked [6:58] out of there on her own. We did not know about the terrible, painful back where on a good [7:04] day she could walk to the mailbox. Your thoughts on what we've heard so far. [7:07] Yeah. Good to see you again. The purse and the phone being there are I think I feel like [7:13] that's new to me. Maybe I knew the phone was there, but I didn't know the purse. Of course, [7:19] it it's obviously tragic to watch her go through that. [7:22] And I'm I think I have more questions now than before. And one of my biggest questions [7:27] is why are we messing around with the front door? Why is there blood on the front door? [7:31] If we have a propped open back door, why aren't we just going out that way? So I have more [7:36] questions now than I had before. [7:39] Mm hmm. Yes. Why would the door be propped open, Eric? I agree. I don't understand. [7:45] Propped and we don't I'm just going to take a moment and give a little editorial of my [7:49] own on this from a journalistic perspective. You don't have to comment on this. [7:53] But I with respect, I have to say I I think Hoda Kotb fell down on the job and I don't [7:58] think she was the woman for the interview. They put her out there because they use this [8:02] as a promotional vehicle. The two are friends. Look, we're a big we're a big family. Look [8:07] at them relating. They kept her mic up for her empathetic sounds and her active listening, [8:13] which was actually a major distraction and very odd in its in the choice, because normally [8:19] the network would turn down Hoda's mic during Savannah's very compelling. [8:23] Answers, especially in an interview this big. The reason they left Hoda's mic open [8:28] is because I'm telling you, NBC had an agenda here, which was to show you one big happy [8:33] family. Look how empathetic she is. It was an inappropriate choice journalistically because [8:38] it served as only a distraction. This interview was not about Hoda. It was about Savannah. [8:44] And I'm sorry, but Hoda kept wiping away tears that weren't there either. This was acting [8:49] on Hoda Kotb's part, and it was a distraction and an unnecessary one. [8:53] But my real complaint about the way that Hoda handled this was there were no follow [8:58] ups, none, and therefore it was not journalistically sound. She did not ask very basic questions [9:06] like what do you mean propped open? That's it. Not I'm not talking about you go for the [9:11] jugular. You treat her like she's an hostile witness. I mean, very basic reportorial ABCs. [9:18] What does propped open mean? And and the sins got worse as the interview [9:23] went along. I objected to how it was handled. I'm I'm just being honest. I'm not trying [9:28] to be petty. I'm trying to be honest about what I saw there and what should have happened [9:32] in an interview this big. But OK, Eric, we didn't get a follow up on what propped open [9:40] means, nor on what the family believes happened there, because we now know that there's blood [9:48] on the front steps, front stoop or four or porch. [9:52] I'm going to play. I'm going to play. I'm going to play. I'm going to play. I'm going [9:53] to play. I'm going to play. I'm going to play. I'm going to play Ashley Banfield's [9:54] reporting in a minute. But Ashley's now reporting that there were that the blood we knew happened [9:58] in the house was indeed on the inside part by the front door, which is what we'd speculated [10:05] but didn't know. And yet the back door is the one being, quote, propped open. So what [10:11] do you make of that? [10:12] Well, I would first of all, on the interview, it seemed to me that the interview was a little [10:17] bit more of Savannah just talking. And you could certainly feel the pain coming through. [10:23] So more of like. [10:23] A monologue than an interview. So I see where you're going there. And obviously for the [10:28] family, this is an immense tragedy. And of course, the fact that they just don't know [10:31] what happened to their mother, this is Savannah and her siblings, is certainly coming through [10:36] in the motion that Savannah was feeling there. [10:39] As for the door. Yeah, I thought it was also curious to say that it was propped open. That [10:43] suggests, of course, what we thought all along, that they went in through the back and with [10:48] the blood near the front door probably brought her out through the front. If you're going [10:52] to move her out. [10:53] Quickly. And if this was actually an abduction and Savannah certainly seems to say a number [10:58] of times that she still believes it's a kidnapping, then you're going to move her out the front [11:02] door, which is the fastest egress to get to a car and get out of there. [11:09] Why would you prop open the back door, Randy, if you are this abductor? [11:14] Well, this is a question that I had. And when we're talking about propping open the back [11:19] door, was it propped open by three inches? Was it propped open completely all the way? [11:25] And the other question that I have is that she lives in a very rural area. Some people [11:31] open their doors in those rural areas in order to get ventilation. Was this something that [11:37] was normally done? These questions were not asked nor answered. So those are those are [11:42] questions that I have now. Here's also something is I felt very significant. They knew early [11:49] on from from what what the interview with Savannah was, that there was blood. And she was a little [11:53] bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little [11:54] bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little bit [11:55] surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. She was a little [11:56] bit surprised. She was a little bit surprised. [11:57] but going to get some of the blood they understood that there that the ring doorbell had been [11:58] ripped off. These are these are huge clues here. [12:03] So the question that I have is and of course her statement that her mother doesn't go walking [12:09] around, and she didn't leave voluntarily that indicates a crime. Why was this treated [12:16] as a search and rescue effort bringing in teams of search and rescue people to trample [12:22] the scene and to screw the scene up? [12:24] Yes, Yeah. [12:25] and then and then within days release that scene these are the questions that i have that relate [12:34] directly to the competency of the sheriff what do you make of it james yeah i was going to echo [12:41] randy's uh sentiment and that she continued to say that the family was really focused on no you [12:46] don't understand as if they're trying to explain to the police the police had a narrative it sounds [12:52] to me like the police had a narrative that they were saying to her like this happens all the time [12:56] i'm sure it's nothing you know they're trying to minimize it and downplay it you know that people [13:00] go missing or walk away all the time she's old yada yada and and they're saying no no you don't [13:05] understand this isn't like the others yeah i think that's what she said um and so to me it sounded [13:10] like they were trying to impress upon law enforcement to take this more seriously and they [13:15] were trying to kind of explain it away like you know this happens a lot the business about you [13:21] know the bad back and on a good day she could make it to the mailbox that that is interesting [13:25] and she said but most days not most [13:28] days nancy could not even make it to the mailbox so she was not mobile nancy guthrie was not mobile [13:34] uh and there are more clues that are revealed uh in the coming sound bites which i'll get to um [13:41] here is hold on the one where she describes her belief that um she thinks her mother was kidnapped [13:52] for ransom this is a tough one it's not four my brother you know he spent his career in the [14:00] military and worked in intelligence [14:03] and it's a fighter pilot and it's brilliant and he saw very clearly right away what this was [14:16] and even on the phone when i called him he knew and he said i think she's been kidnapped [14:25] for ransom and i said yeah well why what and then i mean it sounds so like how dumb could i be but [14:39] i just i didn't want to believe i just said [14:42] do you think because of me or it's with even yeah maybe i knew that you did i hope not i mean we still [15:04] don't know honestly we don't know anything we don't know anything so i don't know that it's [15:14] because she's my mom and somebody thought oh that girl that lady has money we can get make [15:26] a quick buck i mean would make sense but we don't know but yeah that's probably which is that it's [15:46] it's because of me. Just saying I'm so sorry, mommy. So sorry. I'm sorry to my sister and my [16:00] brother and my kids and my nephew and Tommy. I'm like, so sorry. I'm so sorry. If it is me, [16:12] I'm so sorry. That is gut-wrenching. And I think anyone can understand what that would feel like, [16:23] that whatever your job is, someone got angry with you or someone thought you had money or for [16:28] whatever reason about you did something horrible to your family member, your mom, or anyone in [16:36] your family. Of course, she knows it's not actually her fault, but she feels responsible as I think [16:42] any human would. But she added to this a couple of things that from an investigative standpoint, [16:50] I think you guys will find interesting. That was interesting from a human standpoint. And of [16:57] course, the fact that Savannah, all these... [17:00] weeks later, still believes it was a kidnapping for money due to Savannah's wealth, that does [17:06] tell us something. I mean, Eric, your thoughts on the fact that she's still holding onto that [17:10] belief as her primary theory six, seven weeks into this crime. Yeah, I agree. She certainly [17:16] believes it's a kidnapping. She's certainly blaming herself. And honestly, it is likely that [17:22] this was, at least in the beginning, a kidnapping that turned into an abduction. And I honestly [17:28] believe that even... [17:30] If it started there, you see the blood. Now we know how infirm Nancy Guthrie was, that she may [17:37] have passed pretty quickly and there was no ability to give a sign of life. Now, she does... I'm not [17:42] sure if it's in this clip or a later one, but Savannah does raise something else. It's about [17:48] the ransom notes themselves. She says at one point that they're... [17:52] I have that. Let me play it. Let me play it. And then you take it on the back end. Here we are in [17:56] Sat 6. There are a lot of different notes, I think, that came. [18:00] And I think most of them, it's my understanding, are not real. And I didn't see them. But, you know, [18:12] the person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves to a [18:22] family in pain. I believe the two notes that we received, that we responded to, I tend to believe [18:36] those are real. Okay. That was huge. Keep going. Right. So here's where I'm going to agree with [18:43] your earlier statement, Megan. [18:45] There's where you need a follow-up. Which two notes, right? [18:49] Yes. And also, why? Why? That's it. It doesn't take any sort of experience in the journalism [18:57] biz. Just why? What can you tell us? I know you're limited in what you're going to say, [19:03] but what can you tell us to explain why you believed two were real? [19:08] So I don't feel like we know. I don't feel like we know now what notes went where. We know that [19:16] they went to TMZ. Are she talking about the same notes or were there independent ones that went to [19:19] the family? Because it's never made sense to me that the kidnappers in potentially such a massively [19:26] high profile case are going to send ransom notes to public media and not send it directly to the [19:32] family. It's not going to be difficult to find a way to get it to Savannah Guthrie. So I've never [19:38] believed that those notes were true. So now I'm questioning, were there notes that we don't know [19:44] about that did go directly to the family? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I [19:46] don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't [19:52] know. I wish you had done the interview because I'm sure you would have followed up. [19:56] I mean truly like who, what, when, where, and why are very, very basic journalism steps. Like [20:01] it's that is not rocket scientist science stuff. Like which notes? The two that went to TMZ and [20:08] local media? Are those the ones you're talking about? Just to be clear for the record. And it [20:13] wasn't asked. Assuming it was those notes. [20:16] Here's, here's the critical question that needed to have been asked. Then why didn't you pay the [20:24] ransom? Right. And that's why I don't believe those were the notes. I don't think those are [20:29] the notes she's talking about. I believe those were. See, I disagree with you. I think, I think [20:32] Savannah, as a journalist, would have said there were other notes you don't know about that I'm, [20:36] you know, whatever. I don't think Savannah would have thrown out there that the two, [20:39] like so casually, the two, I believe the two were real. I think it was her short form reference to [20:43] the two that we know about. The first one went to TMZ and two local news outlets. And then the next [20:48] one only went to the local news outlets. And I think Savannah was short forming. Those are the [20:53] ones, because she said the two we responded to, and those are the ones that we were watching them [20:58] respond to, at least we believe, on camera when the family did those like sort of hostage videos [21:04] of their own, like, please, please, please prove we need to know you have her. But the very obvious [21:09] question is, and why didn't you pay the ransom? If you thought that this guy really had Nancy, [21:18] you could have paid reportedly four million on the Thursday of the demand or six million [21:23] the Monday after that Thursday. And you didn't. As far as we know, we certainly have been led to [21:31] believe they didn't pay it. Right. And that calls into question one other thing. OK, so let's say [21:37] she believes, you know, we're we're debating, but let's say she believes those are those notes are [21:42] real. And maybe there was no ability to provide a good sign of life because, [21:49] you know, the cryptocurrency Guthrie had expired at that time. But let's say that if they did [21:54] decide to pay, you know, you can track that cryptocurrency as it moves through digital [22:01] wallets. We talked about this on an earlier episode. You know, that would at least give the [22:05] FBI an ability to try to find an eventual wallet that they they could track and potentially find [22:12] the kidnappers. So if they believed that those were legitimate kidnapping notes, then paying would [22:19] have given another investigative tool to the fbi yes okay so james do you want to weigh in on this [22:28] yeah i really did thank you um let's go back because i think your listeners are probably [22:33] seeing the seeing your clip and then they're saying how does the brother go there that quickly [22:38] and it's very important later on you know savannah will talk about her sister's into [22:43] intuitive ability but this is what's happening here is is not only savannah's intuition but [22:50] her brother's intuition is pinging here so what's happened is they're you know intuition operates at [22:56] the subconscious level faster than a computer and they're putting it together very quickly why [23:01] because savannah is a high net worth individual i'm more than likely she's had a risk assessment [23:06] i know the people over at nbc i'm sure they've done it everyone i ever do with a high net worth [23:10] person like that a highly popular person like her or you i i have an anti-kidnapping thing [23:16] right we go through kidnapping preparation mitigation and we make sure the family has [23:20] a high net worth and we make sure the family has a high net worth and we make sure the family has a [23:20] a high net worth and we make sure the family has a plan and we walk like i walk through with a [23:22] plan and we walk like i walk through with a family you know things to do to not be kidnapped because [23:26] of this kind of overflow from being related to a famous person and there we need to talk offline [23:31] james they are pinging on it they're like this is what happened and and then that's why she went do [23:35] you think it's because of me well she knows she's like oh god because she's always lived with that [23:39] thought that that could happen i'm sure her kids go through this her husband goes through i'm sure [23:43] megan you go through it all the time but certainly you know she's been prepped and she knows as being [23:49] in the in the line of [23:50] in the line of crime like kidnapping is a possibility [23:54] crime like kidnapping is a possibility james does your prep kit involve [23:56] james does your prep kit involve um a louisville slugger and your makeup [23:58] um a louisville slugger and your makeup foundation because my mother tells me [24:00] foundation because my mother tells me that's what she's got at her front door [24:02] that's what she's got at her front door she's ready to go she's good she's got [24:04] she's ready to go she's good she's got her back and she's gonna look good [24:06] her back and she's gonna look good that's a start that's good that's called [24:08] that's a start that's good that's called a plan but certainly i'd like to help her [24:11] a plan but certainly i'd like to help her with a little bit more but that is [24:12] with a little bit more but that is definitely a good start yeah yeah i mean [24:15] I think a lot of us have shorn up the security around our loved ones in the wake of this. [24:22] I mean, it's a tragedy, no matter how you look at it. [24:24] And it is a crime. [24:25] It's obviously a crime. [24:26] She obviously, I mean, I think anybody who is still wondering whether she wandered off [24:29] can put that to bed. [24:30] She did not wander off. [24:31] She was incapable of the wander. [24:33] I want to play one other soundbite for you guys to get your investigative input on it, [24:37] because there were more details about the crime scene included in, I think it's here, [24:44] where she was describing the video, like how the family was able to make those videos [24:49] and like what they were going through. [24:51] She drops a couple of details in this soundbite, SOT3. [24:54] Let's hear them. [24:55] And somehow together, we did our best to come up with the words to say. [25:05] And I haven't posted one thing or said one thing. [25:11] Three of us haven't decided together. [25:17] It is surreal. [25:18] It's how is it possible that we? [25:23] We are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman [25:34] in the dead of night in her pajamas with no shoes without her medicine. [25:46] This little person beg for mercy. [25:52] Again, I'm sorry, but the active listening, the active empathy by Hoda Kotb injecting [26:00] herself into the moment is just so distracting and unprofessional. [26:04] Randy, my question for you is there you hear her say. [26:08] We heard. [26:09] She's like, you know, in her pajamas, I'm like, I don't know. [26:10] I don't know what happened. [26:11] The night of the night. [26:12] She's like, you know, I don't know. [26:13] I'm just like, oh, I can't believe she's wearing. [26:14] She's like, I don't know. [26:15] I don't know. [26:15] I don't know. [26:16] I don't know. [26:16] I don't know. [26:16] And then she adds in her pajamas with no shoes without her medicine. [26:22] So those are details we did not know. [26:24] We did actually did not know that Nancy was in her pajamas and we did not know that she [26:27] wasn't wearing shoes like she seemed to me to be telegraphing the shoes and slippers [26:33] that Nancy wears are all still there, not just like she would have been in her bed asleep, [26:39] and therefore wouldn't have had to lose shoes on she seemed to be saying who would take in a lady [26:42] in her pajamas without any shoes and no mets and my note to myself here reads it does not sound [26:49] like this person planned on keeping her around for long your thoughts on it yeah so when we're when [26:55] we're talking about uh this this portion of this interview this did uh give us a little more [27:01] information and remember that there was dna found at the scene and um and and my question is what [27:10] was the condition of the bedroom did it show signs of struggle were there was the dna found on the [27:19] bed um you know i i hate to be the bearer of of ter we've already got terrible news i i've [27:27] unfortunately if we're going to be realistic here there is a strong [27:31] possibility that there is a strong possibility that there is a strong possibility that there [27:31] is a strong possibility that there was a sexual assault involved in this um there was uh there [27:36] this is not an uncommon occurrence that um that situations like this occur [27:42] when we talk about the dna there was a combined dna found um it's really imperative to know where [27:49] was that dna found was it something that was discovered on the bed you know she's now talking [27:56] you know very um cryptically about you know what she was wearing at the time [28:01] at the time this is these are these are serious uh clues here but once again we don't have [28:09] we don't have the answers we don't we weren't given the information uh but this is critical [28:15] information to the investigation there's so much i want to go through on that on that answer and [28:21] on savannah's answer of referencing the pajamas and no shoes and without the meds [28:26] um let me just stay on that for one second because i do think that like there's a whole new reason to [28:32] question whether this this could have been a breaker and enterer i feel like it it may be [28:38] ruled out um but i'll get to that in one second can we just stick james with the now she's adding [28:44] it was the dead of night nancy was in her pajamas she did not have her shoes when she was taken [28:49] she did not have her medication and so that coupled with savannah's belief that this was [28:55] a kidnapping for ransom like does that jive like those two data sets yeah i think they do the thing [29:04] i was kind of wanting to hear was where did the blood begin and i don't know if she's intentionally [29:10] being cryptic um and not saying that there was blood in that bedroom because you know all i've [29:16] heard is that the blood is on the porch and in the driveway but where did that start the inferences [29:22] what he he hit her on the porch i if she had i just was kind of wanting to hear some more [29:30] details and i and again she may not uh i think she if she [29:34] knows if she'd seen that or her sister had seen that they would have told her and that would have [29:38] obviously helped you know the immediate the immediate thought that they were going through [29:43] this is not what happened she did not walk away you know there's stuff there's something going [29:47] on but there was no mention of any blood in the bedroom which is is still very and it's curious [29:53] to me where did this injury right and we don't we don't know there could be there could have been [29:58] right and we just don't know but no one so far has reported that there was and this is ashley [30:04] 's latest reporting she'd been reporting all along from her source the one that everybody likes to [30:09] crap on but this guy early on told her and at law senior law enforcement source she said she had [30:14] who's familiar with the details of the case that's the one who said that they were that the prime [30:19] suspect may be tomas or tommy annie guthrie's husband early on the case and that same week [30:27] we saw them tow away annie and tomas's car and then later we saw them inside of their home at [30:34] 10 o'clock at night [30:35] when it was dark they turned off all the lights inside the home and started taking pictures [30:38] um in any event since then we've been told at least uh our own chad airs reported he cited a [30:45] rock solid source he has boots on the ground there that the family's all been given polygraphs and [30:50] quote passed with flying colors okay so that's where we stand but the question but the same [30:55] source that has become so controversial in ashley banfield's reporting every other thing [31:00] he said has panned out he said the back door was found open and it was [31:05] now we hear savannah say it herself he said that the ring cameras were destroyed and we know that [31:12] they're missing and that there was glass found on the front porch at least and there's a little glass [31:16] bulb on the front of a nest camera now and he's and he was the one who said they're nest cameras [31:20] not ring cameras he was right about that too um and so it's just like her her source seems like [31:27] he knew what he was talking about but everybody wants to dismiss that one piece about like [31:31] this brother-in-law quote may be the prime suspect at least as of that time [31:36] so ashley has updated her reporting because the other thing he told her was that [31:40] there were the blood drops we saw on the front porch continued inside the house [31:44] someplace that there were also blood droplets that looked the same inside the house but she [31:49] she did not have where i think most of us assumed that it would be right on the opposite side of [31:56] that front door since they were on you know outside of the front stoop and it turns out [32:01] that's correct but here's ashley in her own words in her own reporting on tuesday sat 16. we were [32:06] told there was blood in the house but i could never find out where where did those investigators [32:12] see it so that they knew there was something so dire that they had to bring in homicide [32:16] investigators and now i know now i know where the blood is inside the house and it is a fascinating [32:23] piece of data because it is right in the front entrance of the home front entrance front [32:31] hallway whatever you want to call that front entrance but the blood now in the front entrance [32:36] of the home is a significant detail about this crime just in the front entrance not in the [32:45] bedroom not in the kitchen not in the living room not in that family room the front entrance has a [32:54] pattern of blood that is the same as it is outside and it goes over the threshold out the door [33:03] okay so correcting myself she does report no blood found in the bedroom and actually [33:08] she doubles down on that here in sat 17. take a listen [33:14] a lot of investigators make is they hyper focus on the place where they first see the blood [33:20] and they think this is where the attack occurred and that is almost i wouldn't say almost always [33:26] incorrect finding the blood in one room doesn't mean that that's the room where the you know the [33:31] attack occurred or the incident occurred you have to go back and you need to look for other [33:36] potential items or or artifacts to give you indications of what might have happened all [33:44] right that's her guest um who is a blood [33:46] stain expert dr peter valentin so look we now know there was blood that continued inside as you [33:54] open the door right there and that ashley's reporting there was no blood inside the bedroom [34:00] but but there's an additional sound bite i got to run for you guys because she does make a reference [34:07] to how nancy was taken and it's when hoda asks her about seeing the masked man on the front porch [34:18] trying to see which soundbite [34:19] this is on my list is it five yes it is not five let's go i mean it's just absolutely terrifying [34:28] yeah it's just totally terrifying and i can't imagine that that is who she saw standing over [34:42] her bed right there i can't it's too much yeah and i'm glad and grateful to the investigators [34:58] and the technology companies that were able to find that video so i hope at least with [35:08] people of good heart and compassion stop irresponsible and cruel speculation that [35:20] had started to swirl talk about that for a minute i'm glad that people saw yeah came to our door and [35:32] we'll get to that second piece of it in a minute but you heard the detail right standing over her [35:41] bed that's in that's a new detail we heard from her bed now we hear standing over her bed and [35:48] that's why james i feel like in my head it's been her last night standing over pergola's awe is in [35:52] her bed now we hear standing over her bed and that's why james i feel like in my現在 my eyes are [35:53] you this this was not a breaking and entering where like she just ruled out that nancy guthrie [36:01] stumbled upon a burglar who was there to steal and got cross hairs in the crosshairs of this guy [36:09] and then got taken that's if what she just said there is known then that's not true and as you [36:15] know a burglar who's going into somebody's home in the middle of the night at 1 47 a.m [36:21] is not like i'm definitely going to check the bedroom where the homeowner might be sleeping [36:28] right now right it's like i mean maybe they would maybe i'm wrong but she seems to be saying that [36:34] the mother was taken from the bed stand the guy was standing over poor nancy then dragged her out [36:41] of there no purse no phone no meds no shoes in the pajamas that she was wearing to me that does [36:47] not sound like a breaker and an enterer it sounds like someone who was there to get nancy [36:52] yeah and i think kind of what randy was saying but this sounds much more nefarious and i'd lie i'd [36:59] love to know how she you know does she know that did someone tell her hey we have evidence of [37:04] footprints or something that he was standing over your mother before he did whatever he did um or is [37:10] she saying maybe there is something on the bed sheets what's that maybe there is something on [37:15] the bed sheets like maybe maybe there is something there that that leads them to believe that's where [37:21] it all yeah i think a couple weeks ago she said taken from her bed and you and i were talking about [37:23] you and i keyed on that megan and and now she's saying standing over her like watching her you [37:28] know in with that mask and so now that's okay are you getting that from some investigator or is this [37:35] something that you just believe you know like as a story that you're you're saying to yourself like [37:39] okay this is probably what she was going through um because if if it's the former that some [37:45] investigator is telling her yeah he's standing over her like a predator and prey okay that's [37:50] a whole different thing than savannah is just you know [37:53] thinking the worst and going god my mom went through this and it was tragic to watch [37:58] and it does suggest to me um eric that when she said taken from her bed a couple of weeks ago [38:06] it was not an accident she that is what they believe because here she doubles down saying [38:11] standing over her in the bed which may just be a figure of speech you know she's just sort of [38:16] picturing how this went down but either way she's twice now said nancy was taken from her bed and [38:22] therefore i believe that's what she's saying to herself and i think that's what she's saying to [38:24] herself and i think that's what she's saying to herself and i think that's what she believes [38:25] and therefore i believe that's what investigators believe and therefore [38:28] the theory that nancy may have been wandering around and bumped into a burglar is out right um [38:34] you know if we trust what the sheriff believes uh yes taken from her bed so uh that does suggest [38:41] that she's heard that from investigators that it began there in the room it disabuses the notion [38:46] there were some theories early on that maybe he rang the doorbell and she came down to the door [38:52] um and now with the door right the back door propped open [38:54] and uh the whole taken from the bed and you know the other thing that uh you know i think that [39:01] savannah wants to do is impress upon anyone listening the horror of the situation not just [39:07] for the family but but painting that picture that this person went into her mother's house [39:12] that her mother is a frail small person elderly that he stood over her bed lurking there that [39:19] i mean that sinister image might stick in people's minds and um she may be hoping [39:24] hoping that someone feels that horror, feels that pain and decides to do the right thing [39:30] and give a really good tip or clue that leads to that leads the investigators to to some [39:37] fruitful point in the investigation. [39:39] Speaker 1 Speaker 3 Randy, what do you make of it that [39:42] the standing over her in her bed? [39:46] I mean, we're getting an image now of how this thing went down. [39:48] We have the pictures of the man on the porch. [39:51] We know there was some sort of if not a struggle. [39:55] Something led Nancy Guthrie to start bleeding at some point once he got her. [40:01] And we know that the original contact between the two of them appears to have been with [40:05] Nancy asleep in her bed and the perpetrator coming over her and getting her out of there. [40:10] No shoes, no change of clothes, no meds, no personal phone, no anything. [40:15] So as you listen to that sequence of events, what does it say to you? [40:21] I think we can completely eliminate the the random burglar. [40:27] And let me let you know that this is a very rare type of scenario here that was thrown [40:30] out by a number of people. [40:32] Impossible. [40:33] If you look at the statistical analysis of crimes in that area, you will find that there [40:39] has not been a nighttime hot prowl burglary in that area in years. [40:45] The burglaries that have taken place that have been reported have been mostly daytime [40:49] burglaries. [40:51] A burglar that that outstanding all those tapes we saw Randy of like random people looking [40:57] in people's windows and so on yeah the reality is that when you look at the at the statistics [41:03] the the real crime statistics there hasn't been a nighttime hot prowl burglary in uh intrusion into [41:09] a house in that area in in in the in recent memory it just doesn't happen especially in that area [41:17] because most remember most of these homes are alarmed they have uh you know surveillance [41:21] equipment and it's not something that is normally a burglar most burglars if they're if they want if [41:28] they want property they don't want to have a confrontation are people going to be home during [41:33] the day right so this it's just nonsense to even think that this was a random burglar that happened [41:40] to you know then then panic and taker impossible um this this was planned i fully believe that [41:47] there was definitely more than one person involved i believe there was a driver involved [41:52] as well what we have not heard and this is from a source that i have um is that that blood trail [41:58] continued continued from all the way into the driveway that indicates to me that that individual [42:06] who committed this um took mrs guthrie probably by carrying her uh through the home where the [42:15] where the blood splatter was it it um there was a trail that went out into the driveway [42:22] where they loaded her into a car and they took her that's the that's the most i've ever heard [42:29] anyone say on how far out the blood trail went we heard from brian enten who got that video we [42:34] keep showing that it was on the front stoop the red brick area then fox news showed us additional [42:41] video of blood droplets on the gray more gravelly looking path that we're showing here you can see [42:48] thanks to fox video of that but no one has ever said it did in fact continue from there [42:55] over to the driveway suggesting i mean i think we assumed that she didn't just vanish into thin air [43:01] at that point but like no one's ever actually said that you're the first person to actually [43:04] say that that i know of yeah i developed that information not long ago from a source [43:11] so there's no doubt in your mind that she was put into a car absolutely no doubt in my mind [43:15] she was put into a car and of course then that that is is a huge investigative lead that they [43:22] have been clearly trying to follow up on in requesting doorbell [43:27] i understand that the police were doing all kinds of things that could possibly cause you to [43:30] lose your life that's something that you know i think they're getting the most out of and [43:34] i think you know there's there's the uh the the reality is that you know fifty percent of the [43:39] crime is committed from that's what these policemen are saying that they were involved in [43:44] this crime whereas in the police reporting we went through a lot of透ia videos video [43:48] uh surveillance video from convenience stores from from uh you know any entrances and egresses from [43:54] um the neighborhood it had to be there it had to come in from from one of the one of the directions [44:00] so um the you know here's something that that also has not been really um spoken about and that is [44:08] the um the uh cell phone information from any of the cell phone towers you haven't heard a a drop [44:19] about that and that is very very curious because that tells me that this was planned to the [44:25] nth degree that they didn't have cell phones and that right in in and of itself the guy was clever [44:35] this is eric's area of expertise but the guy was before i go to you eric i want to stay with you on [44:39] this randy before we get to the cell phone thing the back door being propped open propped open [44:47] that's different from open it's like open you just whatever you opened it you walked in you kind of [44:54] forgot about it and then you brought her out the front door i think that's what we've been thinking [44:58] but if you propped it open [44:59] like to leave it open you know the way you would if you had someone coming in behind you in a few [45:05] minutes maybe or you were carrying something heavy you needed to get through the door i don't like [45:11] that to me randy does potentially support another person being there that you would prop it i don't [45:19] know a lot of people have like an umbrella stand next to their door or you know a small little [45:24] couch for people to sit down and put on their shoes or some of those doors have one of those [45:30] and they're all open and they're like okay right now let's get this door open and i'm like okay [45:34] we're gonna do it we'll keep the door open but you tell me why a guy there to potentially kidnap [45:43] nancy would prop the back door open well i'm just trying to think out loud like an accomplice [45:50] to bring something more into the home or potentially out of the home he thought he [45:55] was gonna maybe steal a lot and he wanted to like not have to deal with the door um or maybe he [46:02] thought he was going to bring nancy out the back and the plan changed go ahead well this is why my [46:05] originally that we we we talked about is does did Mrs Guthrie leave the prop the door open on a on [46:14] a routine basis like I said for ventilation the other the other possibility is we know that there [46:19] was more than one individual involved when you're talking about carrying a person out it's not easy [46:25] to do by yourself you know it it's going to be a whole lot uh more efficient if you have more than [46:32] one person doing that and um and that that would indicate you know uh the you know keeping the the [46:40] door open for an accomplice Eric go ahead because the the cell phone situation and now we're talking [46:48] like if there's if there's more than one person and by the way a retired Pima County homicide [46:53] detective named Kurt Dabb gave an interview to Parade magazine and he said he believes there [46:59] may be two to four accomplices on this crime [47:03] saying the logistics of something this of this magnitude is much too much for one person to [47:08] handle in my professional opinion based on the facts as I know them right now so then that would [47:11] mean no one brought their cell phone right so I'm I'm agree with Randy there there are certainly [47:18] there there have to be multiple people you're not just gonna have one person go in and then abduct [47:23] her and then bring her out uh you know where is the car you're not going to want to leave the car [47:28] while you go into the house there had to at least be someone in the car and if you remember from [47:32] some of our earlier interviews [47:33] um you know that blood pattern out along the walkway there was in sort of a straight line [47:38] which would suggest I think I said earlier that she might have been carried and it's dripping down [47:43] behind um you know one thing about the before I get to the cell phone before that back door being [47:49] propped you know what's sort of stuck in my mind is you're going into a house and whether it's an [47:54] abduction or what but let's say it's a kidnapping uh you know maybe he propped the door because he [47:59] didn't know what he was going to find and he he was thinking I got to get out if I have to get [48:03] out quickly I don't want to be fumbling with a door as for the cell phones uh yes you can ping [48:08] cell phones uh you what the FBI and law enforcement can do is go to the cell phone provider uh and get [48:14] the data for any cell phones that ping those towers you can get a approximate location so [48:21] what they could do is check all of the cell phones that were hitting the area around that time and [48:26] then try to wait but Eric can't they do the geofencing where it's like they don't have to [48:30] go through all that they they say they have [48:33] technology to say show us which phones were in Nancy Guthrie's area home yes and around her [48:39] property approximate area so all they need to do is take the time and then they can have every [48:43] every phone that pinged around those towers it's not completely approximate but it's close enough [48:49] right to say this person doesn't live here and was there at that time of night and clearly they [48:54] don't have that data which would suggest that these uh the criminals didn't bring their phones [48:59] which is the smart thing to do but what you know stands out for me is they [49:03] would have had to be there at some point earlier to case the area that's a very complex uh Warren of [49:10] streets so if they're going to get to that property they would have had to be there earlier casing it [49:14] and I think that's one of the reasons they really wanted those uh doorbell cams and ring cams and any [49:19] surveillance cams from property because if they came through during the day just to drive through [49:25] to see okay here's how we get to the house here's how we get out maybe something got caught and if [49:33] they're going on uh ladders and actually pulling physical cards out of those cameras just to see if [49:40] there was anything that the people didn't report yeah and it does make you reminds me that now [49:47] they're making clear they're interested also in January 11th on the request for people to pull [49:52] tape Savannah mentioned that to a local news outlet in a statement recently maybe because [49:57] maybe the guy forgot to leave the phone at home every time all right Eric has to go but James [50:01] and Randy stay with me there's much much more to get to don't go away thank you uh thank you [50:05] Eric if you are exhausted foggy anxious or if your metabolisms flatlined and doctors chalk it up [50:14] to age you might just be getting ignored because that isn't necessarily just a part of getting 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actually listens James Hamilton and Randy Sutton are back with me now and also [51:22] joining me is Pat Brosnan Brosnan my old pal from Fox News retired NYPD detective and host of Pat [51:29] Brosnan live from the Bat Cave Pat so great to have you thanks for joining us Megan it's a trip down [51:35] memory lane and it's great to be on it thank you totally it's great to see you [51:40] let me start by getting your perspective on the latest um these Revelations that Savannah believes [51:45] this was a kidnapping for ransom she reveals doubles down on an earlier statement that her [51:51] mother was taken from her bed in the dark of night here she says that this man could have just been [51:56] turned a phrase which says was over her mother in the bed you know snatching her in the middle [52:01] of the night that she was taken without her shoes that she was taken while in her pajamas and [52:07] reiterating some details we did know like didn't have her purse didn't have [52:10] her phone and didn't have her meds all those are interesting investigatively and also adding [52:15] detail about how the back door of the house was quote propped open um we believe by the [52:21] perpetrator though don't know that for sure coupled with Ashley Banfield's reporting that [52:25] there was a blood trail that continued into the front Foyer area of the home but not beyond and [52:32] that her reporting is there was no blood found in the bedroom so your thoughts on where that leaves [52:37] us in your theory oh first of all um [52:41] I've been a detective for over 40 years both in public service and private with the NYPD and I was [52:46] a robbery detective and and I will tell you as I sit here today 53 long days later I still do not [52:54] know exactly what crime occurred I don't know I don't know and that's based on publicly available [53:00] material facts um interviews with various folks who have specific details knowledge data Intel [53:07] still don't know I don't know is it a burglary gun bed is it a robbery gun [53:11] bed a home invasion gun bed which is an elevated robbery with force is it an assault gun bed or is [53:20] it a violent abduction and every time I deconstruct and reconstruct this case and I do Megan pain [53:27] painstakingly come to a wall because to support the violent abduction theory or construct requires [53:37] three things it requires a closure proof of life a transaction path a a pathway to make the [53:45] transaction as as well as a cogent demand and not ever not any time whenever I've reconstructed [53:53] and analyzed this case do any of them support that theory every time it falls apart unless [54:00] this is the rarest of all the rare violent abductions and they thankfully are very rare [54:04] a not-for-profit transaction a not-for-profit I still don't know what it is because where's the [54:13] request for the money and this is 53 days later so [54:16] well she's saying she believes those two quote Ransom notes that TMZ and the other locals got [54:22] are real that seems to be what she's saying some clarifying journalism would have been appreciated [54:27] but that seems to be what she is saying that she believed those first two which means this [54:33] Harvey Levin announcement when he got the one was if she's right an actual communication from [54:40] an actual kidnapper who did have Nancy a throwback here inside 37. [54:47] I got something in our email that looks like a it's written like a Ransom note for Savannah [54:56] Guthrie's mother specific and they're very certain amounts of money very specific and also they say [55:02] at the bottom there are certain things they're saying about what she was wearing and damage to [55:07] the house that they're clearly saying to verify it's us we know what we're talking about so we [55:13] are caught we've contacted the sheriff's department [55:17] and we want to get them this letter and we had a little trouble getting through to the right person [55:24] but the person we spoke with is now forwarding this to somebody in the detective Bureau again [55:31] we don't know if it's authentic or not but they're when you read it they're acting as if yeah only we [55:41] would know these things right and we're serious and there's a dollar demand and an or else in there [55:49] would later find out that the dollar demand related to being paid in bitcoin it was reportedly [55:56] four million dollars if they paid by that thursday six million dollars if they wait until the follow [56:01] up monday and the family then came to the cameras and started begging for a negotiation you know the [56:09] first we had savannah guthrie with the talk to her and you'll see you know which were which were sort [56:17] of eerie lines because that was exactly what a character in silence of the lambs said then um [56:22] she did reference the potential ransom note in that very first video savannah did here is sat 28 [56:28] we too have heard the reports about a ransom letter in the media as a family we are doing [56:37] everything that we can we are ready to talk however we live in a world where voices and [56:50] images are easily manipulated we need to know [56:55] you [56:56] without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her we want to hear from you and we are ready [57:06] to listen please reach out to us so that was after the ransom note had dropped with tmz and by the [57:17] way so that was wednesday after the sunday that she was discovered missing so this is just days [57:21] after it was wednesday then on thursday they dropped another one uh february 5th with the [57:26] brother cameron guthrie alone you remember that and then by saturday night now we've now we've [57:31] missed the thursday deadline [57:33] by saturday night um they dropped another one that sounded more almost reconciled to the fact [57:40] that nancy might no longer be with us here's part of that stop 31. we received your message [57:48] and we understand we beg you now to return our mother to us so that we can celebrate with her [57:57] this is the only way we will have peace this is very valuable to us and we will pay we will pay [58:08] but they didn't pay as far as we know guys like [58:12] everyone was monitoring the bitcoin account that you know fortunately or unfortunately the media [58:18] had the numbers on harvey had the numbers on and the local uh news had the numbers on and harvey [58:23] was able to see whether deposits had been made and he he reported that they had not been so it did not [58:29] there's no reason to believe they paid the ransom which i just don't understand other than you know [58:34] james they never got proof of life so even though they believed the man the ransom notes were legit [58:41] i guess they just weren't going to pay it because they thought [58:44] they they don't they're not going to return her or tell us where she is they didn't trust that they [58:48] had a good faith bargainer on the other side yeah i'm having real difficulty again with the the [58:55] thought that this individual took her and then he wanted to use tmz as a go-between to get his money [59:00] um as if tmz is you know the the current jerry richardson of the negotiation of all you know [59:06] things and that's just crazy i don't know that tmz's ever negotiated the safe return of another [59:12] individual so why would they [59:14] go through that it doesn't stand it doesn't make any sense well the theory was that he he the [59:19] kidnapper would have gone that the three entities he chose all had like tip lines like uh they didn't [59:27] send an email they went on like if you go to tmz and you have a news tip you know like justin [59:32] timberlake just got arrested for dwi you can you can type that in on their website on a page [59:38] without really you know i guess any identifying information but it would seem to me that the fbi [59:44] is identifying information about where from where you typed that page but maybe not because here we [59:50] are seven weeks in they never arrested that person correct and you know again we don't know that the [59:55] fbi is in lockstep with the pima county sheriff's office in this investigation we don't know that [1:00:00] at all we we have it seems to be a disparate investigation being done by two different agencies [1:00:06] but you know even if you know this interview this clip you're showing of her and the family talking [1:00:14] about it you know i'm not saying there's anything wrong with it but there's certainly going to be [1:00:18] some coaching in the background by a you know a negotiator from the bureau who explains to them [1:00:25] what to say and how to say it it's extremely rare that they would let a family just you know [1:00:30] independently you know negotiate or communicate with the the person that just doesn't they don't [1:00:37] work they don't work it that way and again no proof of life so why am i sending you money [1:00:42] you know and i think she even alluded to that there are a lot of people [1:00:45] with bad souls that you know take advantage and and that's certainly what i still believe that [1:00:51] theory is is that people doing that you know they picked up some information they saw in a video i [1:00:56] think you showed of you know uh nancy's home from years ago they would have had enough information [1:01:02] to make it seem as though they they had inside information and they wanted to make a quick buck [1:01:09] but what then why didn't they that's right isn't that one of the big questions [1:01:14] like what do you think randy what if that if they had her even if she had [1:01:19] her they would have been able to split the house and they would have been able to get out and [1:01:22] the house would be a bunch of hide what there's a way of sending proof you have her a lock of hair [1:01:30] you know um something something really specific you saw inside the house that would convince them [1:01:37] you had her i mean even what savannah's saying in the videos the hostage videos is like we need to [1:01:42] know you have her they don't specifically say proof of life and even the reward that she [1:01:48] eventually posted for a million dollars is um for information leading to either you know nancy and [1:01:49] i think that's kind of the thing that's really important to me because we see it all the time [1:01:49] in this world and i think it's really important to us and i think it's a really important issue that [1:01:50] we're seeing with our children in this world you know if you're not having it you're not having it [1:01:51] like alive or her remains or leading to the arrest of this suspect yeah exactly and i personally um [1:02:00] when i when i look at these the the methodology utilized in um in in reaching out to the family [1:02:08] it really doesn't make a lot of sense uh now we do know that that there were remember she she alluded [1:02:15] to numerous uh ransom demands uh the the two that she took seriously were these two but remember [1:02:21] there was an arrest made on one of the on another ransom demand that they were able to track um [1:02:28] and which i that was texted directly to i think thomas tommy the brother-in-law and i'm curious [1:02:34] as to the others that they that they received remember there's a bunch of nut cases out there [1:02:38] they're going to jump into this that confuse the issue and of course that takes resources away from [1:02:43] the agency whether it's the [1:02:45] fbi or pima county um uh but but but let's look at at the the what has actually resulted nothing [1:02:54] um there's been no proof of life if there if that was a reality if that if these people truly had [1:03:00] her that would have been an easy thing to provide and they didn't do it so i i'm i'm not a believer [1:03:07] that this was a ransom that this was a legitimate ransom demand um i am a little curious as to how [1:03:12] they have not been able to track that [1:03:15] those ransom demands and and and of course um you know pat said something you know that maybe this [1:03:22] is a disparate investigation because we do know that the fbi and and pima county have not been [1:03:30] in lockstep in fact you haven't even you the fbi have never seen them so so absent from uh from the [1:03:39] news when it comes down to a high profile case like this that tells you yeah that's true that's [1:03:45] true that tells me that they aren't getting involved because of what's of the animosity [1:03:51] between um that that sheriff i'm using that i'm even using that word loosely the sheriff there [1:03:58] and the uh and things have gone to bat from bad to worse for the sheriff now his what you look [1:04:04] like you want to get on that pat beyond useless i'll be honest and it kills me no one loves law [1:04:10] enforcement more than me this guy was not up to the task from minute one uh he made it [1:04:16] every mistake conceivable from the onset won't get into the details of it but he's surrounded by [1:04:22] folks i'm certain men and women who are very committed to protect and serve who are fantastically [1:04:28] loyal to the investigation but there is a sad reality and it's a supreme irony megan and i know [1:04:34] randy and james know this as well you live in an affluent area like the catalina foothills [1:04:41] the officers who were sworn to protect and serve you in that area by virtue of the fact that there [1:04:48] are no real crimes certainly no crimes of this level of violence they have no historical [1:04:54] perspective they've never done it before they've never done it before i've spoken to it's not like [1:05:00] getting a pat rosnan assigned to your case or a james hamilton or randy sutton or a john doe who's [1:05:05] been in the bronx or in harlem or east brooklyn and has done a hundred of them or 500 of them [1:05:11] and that just comes down to legacy experience and expertise and it is a supreme irony it really is [1:05:18] i'm a criminal too i have a lot of experience in that area all of us in that area have the officers [1:05:23] with the least experience and no one wants to articulate it but i will articulate it because [1:05:29] i still think they're amazing amazing folks but they just haven't done it because they're in an [1:05:33] area that's affluent and relative relatively crime-free i have some i actually have the sheriff [1:05:41] i have some insight into into this particular subject um so by by perspective tucson lies within [1:05:48] pima county [1:05:50] they investigate about 55 murders per year so they have a very experienced homicide bureau [1:05:57] in contrast pima county has about five homicides per year and the sheriff in his infinite [1:06:06] fired or didn't fire but reassigned the most of the homicide unit who had investigative experience [1:06:13] he put him back in in various assignments as a punishment to them so in actuality the homicide [1:06:21] detectives are very very inexperienced one of them from my understanding has never investigated [1:06:26] a homicide and that's that's no that's not being saying anything detrimental about them [1:06:32] but it's as pat said especially homicide work this is a learned skill this is something that takes [1:06:39] years to get expertise in homicide work and and [1:06:44] that's why homicide detectives when they when they're involved they stay for 20 years because [1:06:50] that it that experience is you cannot you you you can there's no other other um avenue for being no [1:06:59] there's you can't short form it exactly i'm thinking as you're speaking about brian kohlberger [1:07:04] who was getting his phd in criminology who made so many stupid amateurish mistakes because [1:07:13] you [1:07:14] can't just study it you actually have to be on the job learning how to in his case commit crime [1:07:21] but in your cases solve crime and the sheriff's taking i have yet to find somebody literally [1:07:26] i've been looking to say this is not fair the sheriff is a great investigator and a really [1:07:32] good guy instead no matter who you ask they hate him there was just a no confidence vote [1:07:39] by the entire police union every single guy in it and gal voted we do not have [1:07:44] confidence in him we don't want him the uh county supervisor came out gave an interview to brian [1:07:49] enton saying no can't stand him in fact i'll play some of that he's like he's talking about his [1:07:55] beginnings back in 1980 um from el paso where it turns out he did some allegedly unethical things [1:08:02] and this is what pima county supervisor dr matt heinz said to brian enton in sat 19. so it was [1:08:09] eight suspensions in a little over five years and it is kind of unusual to have any suspension for [1:08:15] our officers so to have eight in five years that's these are this is a really troubling record he was [1:08:22] frankly a bad cop yeah lots of dereliction of duty tardiness unnecessary force and discourtesy [1:08:29] whatever that okay uh where is it excessive force that one wasn't sustained habitual attorneys [1:08:35] excessive force again 15 days and then eventually the next page uh for july of 82 insubordination [1:08:44] and consistent [1:08:46] which is like kind of one of my new favorite phrases uh he was forced to resign in lieu of [1:08:51] termination the entire four decade history of his presence here in southern arizona has been [1:08:57] based on fraud it is clear to me that he is not capable or competent to to lead in this office [1:09:03] um he is more than tarnished and i don't i that's not specific to any investigation [1:09:10] the invest the most recent high profile one certainly has been shining light on [1:09:16] the president's [1:09:42] this is one of those conversations where i'm like james i'm going to get all these [1:09:44] good answers right like i don't want to lie to you because that doesn't make any sense to me so yeah [1:09:46] I think three or four episodes ago where you played the tape of him talking bad about the Bureau for investigating him and how he's the real cop. [1:09:54] And, you know, again, I think it's always a bad thing if we're the sheriff of a very large organization is somehow leading a major investigation. [1:10:04] That is not their role. Their role is to get resources. Their role is to talk to the media. [1:10:09] Their role is to do damage control. Their role is to support the officers who are actually doing the work. [1:10:15] That's what you want from a sheriff or a chief. You do not want them working the case. [1:10:20] That is usually, in my experience, not a good thing. And it certainly isn't helpful for the victims. [1:10:28] Savannah was asked about the investigation. I mean, which obviously isn't going so well. [1:10:35] And she threaded that needle just just so. Take a listen here. [1:10:39] How did your family feel about the way the investigation was conducted? [1:10:45] Well, it's still going. [1:10:48] And people have worked tirelessly, tirelessly. And we see that. [1:11:01] But we need answers. [1:11:05] We cannot be at peace without knowing. [1:11:14] And someone can do the right thing. [1:11:17] And it is never too late to do the right thing. [1:11:22] And our hearts are focused on that. [1:11:25] She was too smart to, you know, rip on the sheriff who's currently got her mother's fate in his hands in some ways. [1:11:35] So she said, well, it's still going. [1:11:38] That's her telegraphing. [1:11:39] Like, I don't. [1:11:39] I can't say anything bad. [1:11:42] And a shout out to the people who have worked, quote, tirelessly on the case. [1:11:45] I'm sure there are a lot of investigators who are doing everything night and day to solve this crime. [1:11:51] But then a demand for answers at the end. [1:11:54] Like and then finally a reach out to the kidnapper or abductor, whoever it is, to say, please, it's never too late. [1:12:01] It doesn't seem she has confidence in the sheriff. [1:12:03] And I have to feel for her, Pat, because when she got the news from her family that the mom had been taken, [1:12:11] they thought, right. [1:12:12] And she was in New York and she had to get on a plane and fly out to Arizona. [1:12:15] The reports early on were that she called Arizona Democratic Senator Mark Kelly. [1:12:24] And she said to him, you know, like this terrible thing has happened. [1:12:27] And reportedly he vouched for the sheriff. [1:12:29] Like, you're in good hands. [1:12:29] You'll be fine. [1:12:31] And that kind of thing. [1:12:32] You know, I'm sure that a U.S. [1:12:34] Senator would do that because maybe he knows Nanos and he's Nanos is also a Democrat. [1:12:38] It's kind of like, yeah, you're good. [1:12:40] You're in good hands. [1:12:40] Don't worry. [1:12:41] He'll take care of you. [1:12:41] I'll call him. [1:12:42] You know, I'll make. [1:12:43] I'm sure he takes care of you. [1:12:44] But it does make me think, you know, you're in that position that Mark Kelly's in. [1:12:49] You get a call from somebody like Savannah Guthrie about something as like you. [1:12:52] You have to make damn sure you guys know this as actual cops. [1:12:57] Like, you don't recommend you're in good hands with this particular guy unless you know he can do this. [1:13:05] Like, if this is a friend of yours, it's Savannah Guthrie. [1:13:08] I know I know if I called you, Pat, and said, God forbid something like this happen, you would [1:13:13] not say trust this sheriff or this FBI agent unless you knew I could take it to the bank. [1:13:21] And I think something my guess is that something went wrong here, that he recommended Nanos [1:13:27] in a way to Savannah came to trust Nanos. [1:13:29] And this was placed in the hands of the wrong person. [1:13:32] And I don't think the family leaned on him or the authorities strongly enough, not not [1:13:37] to blame them. [1:13:37] I'm just saying I think they trusted him early on to get this out of his hands and into the [1:13:41] hands of the FBI. [1:13:42] Your thoughts? [1:13:43] Well, I think so. [1:13:44] First of all. [1:13:44] The words were carefully chosen, carefully parsed. [1:13:47] But I think this may be a case where the senator almost perhaps a knee jerk response relative [1:13:54] to the competence of the sheriff. [1:13:58] And then again, the sheriff who has because I did some research on him. [1:14:02] He has a very checkered past in many ways. [1:14:05] You mentioned no confidence and so forth. [1:14:06] But because he had no history again, again, Megan, supreme irony, no history of ever conducting [1:14:13] any serious. [1:14:14] Investigations. [1:14:15] And this is extremely serious. [1:14:17] So there wouldn't be any context or nuance, legacy, nuance or context for the senator [1:14:23] to lean into relative to his capabilities, right? [1:14:26] So it's the perfect circle. [1:14:27] It's a perfect circle. [1:14:28] Yeah, I think my understanding is he's a good guy, whatever that means. [1:14:33] Yeah, it seems like a good egg and he's leading that force. [1:14:38] And but again, no, no, no fact based context that. [1:14:43] Yeah. [1:14:44] I recall now. [1:14:45] He had that triple murder, you know, three years ago. [1:14:47] He led it efficiently and effectively, and he was able to develop the relevant Intel [1:14:52] data reports and facts and lead to, you know, arrest, indictment, conviction, nothing. [1:14:58] The reason is nothing. [1:14:59] It comes back to the circle of the affluence of the area and the virtual absence of serious [1:15:06] and certainly super violent crimes. [1:15:08] This one is suggested to be. [1:15:10] You can't you can never give you a recommendation unless you actually know, especially on something [1:15:15] as important as this. [1:15:16] Like we needed a real cop at the head of this investigation, and it just doesn't feel to [1:15:22] me like we have it. [1:15:23] We only have a short time left, but I have to get this in jumping back to Savannah sound [1:15:27] bites that probe where the investigation is and how she's feeling about it now. [1:15:32] Very clearly, Savannah does not believe any member of her family had anything to do with [1:15:38] this and that we understand. [1:15:40] And it makes perfect sense. [1:15:42] That doesn't mean the rest of us have to give them the same benefit of the day. [1:15:45] I would say I hope that you'll take care of it for a long time. [1:15:48] I mean, she's just. [1:15:49] She's just not good enough for me. [1:15:50] She's not. [1:15:51] She doesn't make any sense at all, at all. [1:15:52] I mean, she's just not a little too good for me. [1:15:53] You know, she's not happy that I'm going to take care of her. [1:15:54] She I think it's a little too bad. [1:15:55] I just don't know what she's doing. [1:15:56] You know, it I just I'm just gonna I don't know. [1:15:57] She's just she's just not a good woman. [1:15:58] We don't know where she's going. [1:15:59] And so what I was trying to say was, you know, you are worth a lot more than I want [1:16:01] to look at. [1:16:02] You know, and I'm pretty sure you are worth a lot more than five years, or, you know, [1:16:03] also came under fire. Maybe that happened, you know, with some influencers that I don't know [1:16:07] about. And obviously, Annie is married to Tommy. So she's been somewhat under the microscope [1:16:12] because her car got towed by the authorities and impounded and kept for six weeks for investigative [1:16:20] purposes. And because the cops kept going back to her house and taking pictures with all the [1:16:24] lights out and taking items from her home, even though that wasn't the crime scene. So of course, [1:16:29] people were like, what's going on with those two? And the husband was the last one to see Nancy [1:16:33] alive, you know, prior to the abductor. So here's Savannah, though, lamenting the focus on the [1:16:39] family in SOT7. It's unbearable and it piles pain upon pain. There are no words. There are no words. [1:17:02] I don't understand. I'll never understand. And no one took better care of my mom than my sister [1:17:15] and brother-in-law. No one protected my mom more than my brother. And we love her and she's our [1:17:26] shining light. She's our matriarch. She's always there. [1:17:29] I'm just going to say here again would have been a great place for some follow-up journalism. [1:17:38] Tell us why you don't believe they had anything to do with it. And she might have been willing [1:17:43] to answer. They all took polygraphs and passed with flying colors, as we had Chad Ayers report [1:17:50] on our air a week ago. But we don't know what she's basing that on right now because the question [1:17:54] wasn't asked. The information wasn't provided. But James, you tell me whether there's been [1:17:59] something irresponsible. Forget what the influence is. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't [1:18:02] know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. [1:18:03] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. [1:18:04] The influence. They're going to say and they're going to say Savannah did it. The influencers [1:18:06] are going to go, you know, so-called influencers who are just going out there for clips. [1:18:09] I'm talking about actual journalists. And clearly she's mad at Ashley Banfield. And we've heard that [1:18:14] I heard that myself, that she's furious with with Ashley and about the reports involving her [1:18:19] brother-in-law. But you tell me whether it's irresponsible to take a look at at Tommy and [1:18:24] Annie. No, it's not. And, you know, we haven't again, we have a lady who has not been found. [1:18:30] And so we it's a lead bucket. [1:18:32] You know, we're if we're working this case, we're going back to a number of leads and friends, family is a lead bucket and we have to look there. [1:18:41] Right. But unfortunately, what you have on the back end is, you know, the sheriff's already said I've cleared them. [1:18:46] So how do you you know, we we talked about this a couple of episodes ago. [1:18:50] How do you clear somebody if you haven't solved the crime? [1:18:53] So, yeah, they might have an alibi for the actual night, but it doesn't mean they rose in an involvement that you don't find about later. [1:19:00] So it's very difficult to say I've cleared somebody without solving the actual crime. [1:19:05] So that's I think she's hearing both sides getting frustrated because, wait, the sheriff said we're cleared. [1:19:11] And yet these people are still asking these questions. We have to look at it. [1:19:14] OK, and there's a way to do that in a way that doesn't seem, you know, terribly. [1:19:19] Listen to her trauma. She lost her dad when she was 16. [1:19:23] I mean, it is is dripping off of her. [1:19:25] So any inference of anything that her family's done wrong here is going to be doubly concerning. [1:19:30] It's compounded by all the trauma she's been through. Right. [1:19:33] I mean, I get it. I understand that. But obviously, you know, that's an area they have to look in. [1:19:39] And then there's a number of areas are looking in. But, you know, we don't have anything. [1:19:43] Where is it? We are nowhere after 53 days. [1:19:46] Yeah. And even she says we have no idea. We don't know anything, she said. [1:19:52] This is her theory that she's sticking with about an abduction, a kidnapping for ransom. [1:19:57] But she explicitly says we don't know anything. [1:20:01] Right. But like what? [1:20:01] That's all this time later. [1:20:03] But Pat is right. You know, these communities that elect these folks, it's all fun and games until you really need a law enforcement person for a high profile crime like this. [1:20:12] And when you're in these little sleepy areas and nothing bad ever happens, you know, and then it does. [1:20:17] Like we said, I think the first episode it is it is highlighted. [1:20:21] I mean, you have a flashlight of strobe light on you and your competence or incompetence. [1:20:28] And it's it is really, really difficult if you've never worked a case like this. [1:20:31] And this is a tough one. Right. [1:20:33] And so, again, that's what Pat's talking about. [1:20:36] And he's 100 percent correct. And they're they're the victim. [1:20:39] And she can't just go out, meaning Savannah, and just hire, you know, some expert to come in and take over the case. [1:20:46] It does not work that way. Law enforcement has, you know, the primacy on it. [1:20:50] So it's very, very difficult situation. [1:20:55] I mean, I will say also, nor can she dictate what the media is going to speculate about, because I'm sure there are major downsides to the family of the media being so intrusive. [1:21:03] I mean, I'm sure there are major downsides to the family of the media being so intrusive. [1:21:04] But the upsides are far more important and considerable, like that, that the media interest in this case, if anything, is what's going to get it solved, is what's going to keep the pressure on Nanos, his department. [1:21:19] It's why we have the vote of no confidence. [1:21:21] They don't normally just run to the microphones in any given case that the sheriff isn't solving and say, we don't have confidence in this guy. [1:21:27] You need to know he's not up to the task. [1:21:29] You know, the media is bringing all the pressure. [1:21:32] She it was the one. [1:21:33] The misstep I would say Savannah made in this interview, and there was no other, was where she complained about how the family had to move locations, I guess, more than once because there were media outside. [1:21:45] And she talked about how it's like in the dark of night. [1:21:47] We had to get in a black car, you know, in the desert. [1:21:50] OK, like they got into a chauffeur driven limousine and were taken to this stunning multimillion dollar mansion in the hills with an Olympic sized swimming pool. [1:21:59] They were fine. [1:22:00] They were better off in that other location than being on such a busy road. [1:22:04] That's where the media could obviously go. [1:22:06] The media is a blessing in a case like this that, yes, there's some downside, but net net. [1:22:12] It's not it's not even 50 50 blessing curse. [1:22:14] They're a blessing. [1:22:16] Every family with a missing person out there would pray to God to have the kind of media coverage that this case has gotten. [1:22:23] They would pray to God. [1:22:23] So you can't complain about the media, which is your best friend. [1:22:27] Here's the last thing I want to end on. [1:22:30] This was the one that actually moved me the most. [1:22:33] And she talked about the one. [1:22:37] One conversation in which she actually of her life, she said, in which she actually heard from God, like she actually heard him speak. [1:22:47] Early on, I felt that I heard one of the very few times in my life I did hear God speak to me. [1:23:06] As I said to myself, I can handle anything, God. [1:23:11] I can handle anything. [1:23:12] I just can't handle not knowing. [1:23:14] We can't handle not knowing. [1:23:17] I have to know. [1:23:20] And I heard a voice. [1:23:22] It said, you do know where she is. [1:23:30] She's with me. [1:23:34] She's with me. [1:23:39] So whether she is on this earth still or whether she is in heaven, I know where she is. [1:23:51] I know who she's with. [1:23:53] We need to know. [1:24:03] That's awful. [1:24:04] That really brings home what the family's been going through and the horrors of this crime. [1:24:11] You guys, having heard everything at this point, you know, about 60 days in. [1:24:17] Do you think we will ever? [1:24:19] Have answers? [1:24:20] Are we actually going to find Nancy Guthrie? [1:24:22] Pat, I don't know. [1:24:26] This is so I don't know. [1:24:28] But what I do believe, though, Megan, is that Savannah wasn't speaking to the offenders. [1:24:36] She was speaking to the circle around him. [1:24:38] And I've maintained this for a while, not just with the 41 second video, everything else surrounding the fact that there are people who know that walk. [1:24:49] There are people who know that movement. [1:24:51] Someone cuts his hair. [1:24:53] Someone. [1:24:53] Serves Starbucks to that guy. [1:24:55] Someone does the dry cleaning for this guy. [1:24:58] It's very clear to me that the mask actually revealed him more than concealed him to the extent that his mustache line and his eyes said all the things that happened when he turned 360. [1:25:09] I believe that dozens and dozens and dozens of people know precisely who that is. [1:25:16] But this started off on the wrong foot. [1:25:18] It was a twenty five hundred dollar ransom, which is a direct insult to snitches around the world. [1:25:23] Reward. [1:25:24] You've got to be kidding. [1:25:25] I reward it beyond horrific, beyond horrific. [1:25:29] Didn't move the needle. [1:25:30] I had snitches. [1:25:31] You got to pay them. [1:25:31] That's the way it works. [1:25:34] Don't know the answer. [1:25:36] I have my own theory. [1:25:37] I don't really like to publicly articulate it for bad karma relating to whether she's alive or not. [1:25:44] But the reality is we may never know because those dozens of people are hesitating to pick up their phone and call. [1:25:54] Even. [1:25:54] With a million bucks lying in a balance. [1:25:56] So this is an extremely dangerous person that maybe it's not worth getting your throat slit at a later date for the buckaroos. [1:26:05] I don't know beyond confounding nothing. [1:26:08] Bottom line, nothing adds up. [1:26:11] Nothing. [1:26:13] What do you say, Randy? [1:26:16] Well, I want to go back just for a second to the sheriff. [1:26:20] And I don't know if you're aware of this, but he is currently under investigation, currently under investigation for election interference. [1:26:26] By the attorney general for his for his conduct during the last election when he was elected. [1:26:33] And also the vote of no confidence by way of perspective that came before this investigation. [1:26:41] The sheriff's, the deputy sheriff's union voted that no confidence vote before this. [1:26:47] This investigation took place, which gives you the reality of the the morale within that agency and the and the and the distinct lack. [1:26:57] Of respect that the that the that the working cops actually have in that sheriff. [1:27:03] So that that just gives you a little more perspective. [1:27:06] He's currently under investigation. [1:27:08] I have all the details. [1:27:10] That would that would suggest to me you do not have high hopes for finding Nancy. [1:27:15] I don't know. [1:27:16] I I'm going to be less circumspect than Pat. [1:27:19] I believe that this is a homicide. [1:27:21] I believe that there is a strong possibility that there were cartel people involved in this. [1:27:27] That were. [1:27:28] That this was farmed out to them. [1:27:30] And that's why they're not in the DNA database. [1:27:33] And I have my doubts that that this will ever come to a successful conclusion as for an investigation. [1:27:42] And why do you think they did it? [1:27:43] Brandi in this theory? [1:27:44] Well, what are the what are the motivating factors for these type of situations? [1:27:52] Greed, lust, money, hate, revenge. [1:27:59] It's one of them. [1:28:04] How about you, James? [1:28:05] You think we're going to find her? [1:28:06] No. [1:28:06] I think it's going to be like one of these cases I've worked where, you know, this happens the longer this goes and you have nothing and you have no leads and you have no person of interest and no interviews are being conducted, the longer this goes on, this could be a situation where, you know, we'll talk about this for 20 years, whatever happened to her, you know, I've seen it. [1:28:28] I've seen it happen. [1:28:29] I can name the cases and it's tragic and it's terrible. [1:28:32] But that's what I get the feeling, you know, we don't have it. [1:28:36] We should have things. [1:28:37] This is 2026. [1:28:38] There are things we should have right now that we do not have in this case. [1:28:42] And the longer this goes, the less and less, you know, optimistic I am. [1:28:49] There's one other piece of information I forgot to give you, Megan. [1:28:53] And this is very recent. [1:28:55] This is very recent from my sources that that massive investigation where there were, you know, hundreds of investigators working on it has now dwindled to a task force of five people. [1:29:09] It was bound to happen. [1:29:11] There's no way they could keep that kind of manpower on it. [1:29:13] But it's very disturbing that while they had that manpower, they got us to a place where there appear to be no suspects. [1:29:20] That's another thing Chad Ayers was told by his rock solid source boots on the ground. [1:29:24] No suspects. [1:29:25] None. [1:29:25] I mean, that's that's not great. [1:29:27] Seven weeks in, at least in Brian Kohlberger, when we were ripping on the Idaho police officers, we as like, what's going on? [1:29:34] They haven't told us anything. [1:29:35] They they had Brian Kohlberger. [1:29:37] We just didn't know it. [1:29:38] They were surveilling him. [1:29:39] They were following him back to. [1:29:40] His home in the Poconos. [1:29:41] They were getting a warrant to go into his home right before Christmas here. [1:29:47] The reporting is they have no suspects. [1:29:49] It's not even like they're narrowing in on the guy. [1:29:52] None. [1:29:53] None of that is good. [1:29:54] And you can feel the family. [1:29:55] You know, what's amazing. [1:29:56] Thanks so much. [1:29:58] Thank you. [1:29:58] And James pointed out, I'll leave on this final note. [1:30:01] I kind of promised we should have a lot more. [1:30:05] This is not 1996. [1:30:06] I could not agree more. [1:30:07] I won't get into the litany of investigative tools and the litany of data. [1:30:11] And the tsunami of intel and information and there's nothing, nothing. [1:30:17] It's beyond bizarre. [1:30:19] It's like a ghost came in and a ghost vanished. [1:30:23] And we know there's not ghosts. [1:30:25] But this is this is the strangest case I've ever personally, you know, [1:30:30] I would say investigated from a third party, but it's unbelievable. [1:30:33] So I concur. [1:30:34] There's so much we should have and we have nothing. [1:30:36] Zip, zip, zip, zip, zilch, nada. [1:30:38] That that ghost comment gave me a chill. [1:30:41] I don't know. That's like that was eerie. [1:30:43] Right. It is like that. [1:30:44] I mean, we saw the ghost on the front steps of her porch. [1:30:47] But you're right. [1:30:48] Somehow he did vanish and Nancy along with him. [1:30:51] Guys, lots of love. So much. [1:30:52] Appreciate it. Thank you. [1:30:53] Thank you all for being here. [1:30:55] Yeah, thank you. [1:30:56] Yeah, James, I'm calling you, calling you for your kidnapping protocol. [1:31:00] As much as my mother's foundation may protect her from looking bad. [1:31:03] Any time, you know, take care. [1:31:06] Yeah, there's more in place. [1:31:08] Just just to any bad guys out there, there is more in place. [1:31:11] But that was her original plan. [1:31:13] So more of this Savannah interview is going to air on The Today Show tomorrow. [1:31:16] It's amazing. [1:31:17] They broke it up into two parts, the first hour, a second hour today. [1:31:22] Now there's another part, part three that's going to air tomorrow. [1:31:25] Plus, they're turning it into a dateline. [1:31:26] I'm like, like, you can't. [1:31:29] They're going to milk it for all it's worth over there. [1:31:32] That's why they kept Hoda's mic up. [1:31:34] That's why she behaved the way like this is theater for some people involved. [1:31:39] It's not theater for Savannah Guthrie or any of the Guthrie's. [1:31:42] And my heart goes out to them. [1:31:44] The other thing that was interesting was [1:31:45] Carson Daly at the end of the piece on the set confessed that none of them has [1:31:50] been in contact with Savannah throughout this entire thing. [1:31:53] Haven't I been telling you? [1:31:54] I mean, no one's been talking to her. [1:31:57] Great. [1:31:58] But it's one big happy family there. [1:32:00] It's a one big have trust us and also continue to tune into The Today Show [1:32:05] every morning between seven and nine a.m. on NBC. [1:32:07] I mean, that's what you're looking at from the cynical network bosses. [1:32:12] Not talking about Savannah here, who is genuinely in need of our help. [1:32:16] All right. [1:32:17] Coming up next, former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich on what he thinks the [1:32:22] Illinois officials may be doing with respect to this illegal who killed poor [1:32:28] Sheridan Gorman. That's next. Think about this. 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[1:33:17] Gold help you diversify with gold. [1:33:19] Now that's peace of mind. [1:33:20] Again, text MK to nine eight nine eight nine eight today. [1:33:24] The family of Sheridan Gorman is [1:33:26] responding to the Democrats who continue to downplay her horrific murder. [1:33:31] Twenty five year old Venezuelan illegal [1:33:33] immigrant Jose Medina allegedly shot 18 year old Sheridan in the back last [1:33:38] Thursday as she fled after he emerged, masked and dressed in all black on a pier. [1:33:46] She was out to see the Northern Lights. [1:33:48] Her family says with her friends and Sheridan, who tried to get away from this [1:33:52] maniac, was shot in the in the back and then pronounced dead at the scene. [1:33:57] Chicago's radical leftist mayor, Brandon Johnson, refused to apologize to the [1:34:02] Gorman family and called her murder, quote, just senseless violence. [1:34:07] The Gorman family responding with, quote, the following. [1:34:11] What happened to Sheridan cannot be reduced to a senseless tragedy, nor can it be [1:34:16] explained in general terms about public safety. [1:34:19] Sheridan. [1:34:20] Our daughter. [1:34:21] She was 18 years old. [1:34:22] She was doing something entirely normal, walking near her campus with friends. [1:34:27] She should be here. [1:34:28] Calling this senseless is not enough. [1:34:32] There must be a clear and honest accounting of what went wrong. [1:34:35] We will not allow Sheridan's life to be reduced to a talking point or a generalization. [1:34:40] We expect leadership that is willing to confront hard truths and ensure that what [1:34:44] happened to her does not happen again in reaction to Governor J.B. Pritzker's ex [1:34:51] post, calling the murder a tragedy without mentioning the suspect's immigration status. [1:34:57] The Gorman family responded again, writing, quote, Sheridan's death cannot be [1:35:02] reduced to a general tragedy, nor can it be explained away by broad references to [1:35:07] failures somewhere else. Sheridan was a daughter, a sister and a [1:35:10] young woman whose life was taken in a way that should never have been possible. [1:35:14] We're not interested in political arguments or in watching responsibility shift from one [1:35:19] place to another. [1:35:20] If there were failures, as the governor himself has acknowledged, then every one [1:35:24] of them must be identified, examined and addressed directly. [1:35:27] The location of those failures matters less than the willingness to confront them. [1:35:31] Honestly, our daughter is not a policy debate. [1:35:36] She is a life that was taken and that demands accountability. [1:35:41] And now a photo has emerged online, which some speculate shows Medina. [1:35:45] It looks exactly like him to us holding up a gang sign for listening audience. [1:35:51] It's like he's got. [1:35:52] The four fingers of his left hand showing and the ring finger is bent in half. [1:35:57] So it's like the pinkies standing out, then the ring fingers bent in half and [1:36:02] then the middle finger and the index finger are showing. [1:36:06] And that's apparently a gang sign, which has led to a lot of questions about [1:36:10] who this guy is and what he was really doing on the pier that night. [1:36:14] He's due back in court tomorrow after missing his detention hearing Monday, [1:36:18] reportedly because he's been hospitalized with tuberculosis. [1:36:23] A former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich, wrote the following on X. [1:36:28] Sheridan Gorman's killer is being held in isolation. [1:36:32] I suspect Pritzker and the Dems are hiding him to cover up the fact that this illegal [1:36:37] immigrant killed an innocent young girl as part of a gang initiation. [1:36:42] I know gangbanger gangbangers and how they operate. [1:36:46] I lived with them for eight years and I know Pritzker and the Dems. [1:36:50] Bet you I'm right, Blagojevich, they're referencing the time he spent in federal [1:36:54] prison on corruption charges before being pardoned by President Trump. [1:36:57] He came on the show after all that and we had a fascinating discussion about it. [1:37:02] The former governor joins me now. [1:37:03] His new book, Famed, F'd and Freed, [1:37:06] A Governor's Odyssey, is out in August and available for preorder now. [1:37:12] Great to see you, Rod. Thanks for coming back on. [1:37:14] Please come on when your book hits, too, and we can talk all about it. [1:37:17] But why do you think that this might have been a gang initiation? [1:37:22] Well, I'm almost completely convinced that it was. [1:37:25] I know this subject all too well because [1:37:27] of my unhappy experience, two thousand eight hundred ninety six days in prison, [1:37:31] sheltering in place with Crips and Bloods, gangster disciples, seeing law cartels, [1:37:35] drug dealers look up to the ganglord El Chapo like my daughters look up to Taylor Swift. [1:37:40] I was in prison for the first three years with men who committed murder. [1:37:43] So I have an unhappy experience living with those guys and knowing how they [1:37:48] operate and gang initiations are very much a part of of the gangs, [1:37:52] not only in prison, but in real life. [1:37:56] And frankly, little or no doubt that. [1:37:57] But what happened here was that and the facts suggested that the group of kids [1:38:03] were running away from this guy who appeared, he was dressed all in black [1:38:07] and then he decided to shoot poor Sharon in the back. [1:38:11] I think it hit her in the back of the neck. [1:38:13] It had to be because he had to prove himself to the gang he was trying to join. [1:38:16] And one of the most disgusting parts [1:38:19] of the story is the fact that he should have never been here in the first place. [1:38:22] He's among the hundreds of thousands of criminal illegal aliens who broke [1:38:26] into the country illegally, who was also in custody a couple of years before [1:38:30] for shoplifting, but the no bail laws that the Democrats love let him out. [1:38:36] And there can be no other motive for doing something like that. [1:38:40] So based on all of the facts and circumstances that we know, my own life [1:38:46] experience, I'm perfectly convinced that this was a gang initiation. [1:38:51] The only explanation for him shooting her [1:38:53] and killing her and not shooting at anybody else. [1:38:58] Mm hmm. Right. [1:38:58] Because it seemed like he targeted her, but there was no explanation for why. [1:39:04] Like, there wasn't an altercation. [1:39:07] There was, as far as we know, not an attempted sexual assault or anything [1:39:11] like that. He just got his eyes on her. [1:39:14] She sensed danger. [1:39:16] He had a gun. He had a black mask on. [1:39:18] She ran and her friends ran to and he shot her in the back. [1:39:22] I mean, so you're you're you're citing the determination to take a life on his part [1:39:27] as evidence that that. [1:39:28] That in and of itself had purchased for him. [1:39:31] That's exactly right. [1:39:31] He was instructed by the gang. [1:39:33] He wanted to join to do that and kill somebody. [1:39:35] I saw it in prison. [1:39:36] These guys would the Latino gangs in particular. [1:39:39] These guys, the new inmates would be [1:39:40] required to do certain things in violation of the rules to prove themselves to their [1:39:45] their car, which is the gang were in prison. [1:39:48] And the politics of this, I know because I was a Democratic governor. [1:39:51] Well, wait, stand by. Stand by. [1:39:53] I want to talk all about that. Forgive me. [1:39:54] But we were at a time on the Sirius XM. OK. [1:39:57] One o'clock hour. [1:39:58] We're going to pick back up on the two o'clock hour in five seconds. [1:40:00] We take a quick break. [1:40:01] We'd be right back with the governor. [1:40:04] Let's be honest. [1:40:05] America can still be a dangerous place and you cannot afford to wait for help when [1:40:09] you need it. Sure, you could use a firearm. [1:40:12] But in today's America, defending yourself [1:40:14] with deadly force could have legal consequences. [1:40:17] According to FBI data, ninety nine point nine percent of all [1:40:20] altercations do not require lethal force. [1:40:23] And that's exactly why many are turning to Berna. [1:40:26] Berna is proudly American. [1:40:28] Hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana. [1:40:30] These less lethal self-defense launchers are trusted by hundreds of government [1:40:34] agencies, law enforcement departments and private security companies. [1:40:38] Over six hundred thousand Berna pistols [1:40:40] have been sold, most to private citizens who refuse to be victims. [1:40:45] Berna launchers fire rock hard kinetic [1:40:47] rounds and powerful tear gas and pepper projectiles capable of stopping a threat [1:40:52] from up to 60 feet away. No background checks, no waiting periods. [1:40:55] And Berna can ship straight to your door. [1:40:58] Take responsibility. [1:40:59] Protect your future. [1:41:01] Visit Berna dot com right now or your local sportsman's warehouse. [1:41:05] That's B-Y-R-N-A dot com or your local sportsman's warehouse. [1:41:10] Visit now and be prepared to defend. [1:41:13] Former Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich is back with me. [1:41:16] Now we are discussing the murder of Sheridan Gorman and why the former [1:41:21] governor believes that this illegal immigrant who is accused of killing her [1:41:25] may have done so as part of a gang initiation. [1:41:29] In prison, did you did you just have to commit a crime in order to join a gang or [1:41:34] go so far as to commit a murder? No, no. [1:41:37] I never saw anybody get murdered as part of a gang initiation in prison. [1:41:41] But I saw several instances over those unhappy nearly eight years of [1:41:47] some of the gangbanger inmates who had to they had to become part of the larger gang [1:41:54] and they had to prove themselves to be part of the group. [1:41:56] And they were required to go out and do certain things. [1:41:59] They were against the rules. [1:42:01] Whether they were crimes or not really didn't matter. [1:42:04] Whatever the prison rules were, they were instructed to go break them. [1:42:07] It could have been, for example, [1:42:10] get the first kick in against another inmate who was part of the group who had [1:42:14] done something outside of the into the gang's requirements. [1:42:18] They would do this thing called group [1:42:20] justice, where they would get all gathered together and each member of the group [1:42:24] would strike a blow against the fallen misbehaved gangbanger. [1:42:31] So this kind of stuff is sort of tradition and culture. [1:42:35] And it was very common there. [1:42:37] And, you know, I grew up in a rough and tough neighborhood when I was a kid [1:42:40] growing up, so I wasn't exactly immune to how street gangs operated either. [1:42:44] And what I see with this particular case [1:42:47] cries out to me that it was it had to be a gang initiation. [1:42:50] What are the motives that motivation that this guy have to kill that poor, [1:42:55] innocent girl like he did where he did dressed as he was? [1:42:59] And the fact now that they're keeping him in hiding. [1:43:02] And which I really believe they're doing [1:43:04] would suggest that they know exactly what the motivation was. [1:43:06] That's why they're they have. [1:43:08] OK, now explain that, because what we've been told is he missed his first court [1:43:13] appearance because he has tuberculosis and he was hospitalized [1:43:18] and is reportedly being kept in isolation in any event in the prison. [1:43:21] So what what why is that suspicious to you? [1:43:23] Well, I believe the Democratic Governor Pritzker said the word down that they [1:43:27] wanted to not change the narrative that the Democrats have had when it comes [1:43:31] to illegal immigrants. [1:43:32] Because what this does is it blows up the narrative and what it does is it shows [1:43:36] that everything President Trump's been about and what he's been trying to do to [1:43:40] rid our communities of criminal illegal immigrants [1:43:44] is very real and that they are here [1:43:47] committing very real crimes like killing innocent young girls. [1:43:51] This goes against their narrative and it [1:43:53] goes against the narrative, not just of Governor Pritzker or Mayor Johnson, [1:43:56] but against the entire Democratic Party today. [1:43:59] And it's among the reasons why I think Howard keeping him in isolation. [1:44:03] You solve this problem. [1:44:05] Well, I think the isolation is a holding [1:44:07] pattern until the smoke settles and they can get past this being front page news [1:44:14] and just basically bury it under the rug or hide it in the closet. [1:44:20] That's what I I very much believe. [1:44:21] And I do know that Democratic judges here [1:44:24] in Cook County are susceptible to sometimes getting the word from on high [1:44:28] and making decisions outside of what is right or wrong. [1:44:33] Is there a possibility of if he's a gang [1:44:36] member and he gets thrown in prison pending a trial or obviously in here, [1:44:42] I think it would just be the arraignment that he could be in danger from other gang [1:44:46] members worried he might squeal or, you know, is that is that a thing? [1:44:50] That is a thing. And you're asking a very good question. [1:44:52] Yes, of course, that's the thing. [1:44:54] And I saw that happen to during those eight years or from time to time, [1:44:59] somebody who was a snitch, the mantra in prison is snitches are bitches who get stitches. [1:45:05] They would be punished. [1:45:06] They were doing that. [1:45:07] And I even was told the story about someone who murdered the person I was [1:45:11] in when I first got there only two weeks before, because that guy had been [1:45:16] the recipient of a hit that came out from the Sinaloa cartel drugs, because that guy [1:45:20] was going to be, I guess, testify against some of the activities [1:45:25] of the Sinaloa cartel drugs drug dealers. [1:45:28] So, no, I think all of this fits in with that experience that I had, [1:45:32] the narrative, because the other side of it is that this was just some random killing. [1:45:36] And he decided [1:45:37] to just shoot some innocent person and nobody else with only a shoplifting crime [1:45:44] on his record, not not a violent past, at least not here in America that we know of. [1:45:49] So, yeah, he went from zero to 60, right, fast. [1:45:52] You're right. If you add in the gang element, maybe it makes more sense. [1:45:54] And then we see this picture of him. [1:45:57] This was posted on X by a site that goes by more M.O.O.R. [1:46:01] Real News. They have no website. [1:46:04] They only post to X. [1:46:05] And this is the only post [1:46:07] about Medina. It reads as follows. [1:46:09] Jose Medina, Medina. [1:46:11] They purport that the date of this photo is June 11th, twenty twenty three. [1:46:16] Picture taken outside of the Leon Park Beach one to two to West Touchy Avenue, [1:46:22] Chicago, Illinois, where the city of Chicago and Alderwoman Maria Haddon [1:46:27] housed Jose as suggesting he lived on public assistance. [1:46:31] Two hundred feet from where Sheridan Gorman was murdered. [1:46:36] And so this is what all they posted him [1:46:38] in what we believe is a gang sign. [1:46:39] And we actually just did a little research [1:46:41] on this per a handbook for the Institute of Police, which is based out of Florida. [1:46:47] They recognize this thing he's doing with his hand as a gang sign. [1:46:51] It stands for insane vice lords, which actually makes sense because the pinky [1:46:55] looks like an eye and then you've got the other two fingers looking like a like a V. [1:47:01] And I suppose the index finger in the thumb could be an L insane vice lords. [1:47:07] Uh, they're. [1:47:07] They're called that or they're called the almighty vice lords nation. [1:47:11] The Department of Justice says that this [1:47:12] enterprise began in Chicago, which is still considered its headquarters, [1:47:17] has a bunch of different like divisions now. [1:47:22] They became one of Chicago's largest and most influential street gangs, [1:47:26] heavily tied to narcotics and per a twenty fifteen handbook from the Florida [1:47:31] Department of Corrections, they write that members often have tattoos [1:47:36] either on their hand below the thumb. [1:47:38] To identify themselves or as a protective [1:47:42] mechanism for members facing possible jail time. [1:47:45] We don't see a tattoo here. [1:47:48] Oh, we do on on Medina. Where is it? [1:47:52] Oh, we do see one right below his thumb. [1:47:55] Oh, my God. Yeah, we do see one. [1:47:58] Dang. Yeah, we didn't see it in the hand making [1:48:00] the gang sign, but we do see it in his right hand holding a phone and decked out [1:48:04] in bling and his other hand is decked out in bling, too. [1:48:08] He appears to be wearing what's [1:48:10] it's probably a fake Rolex. [1:48:11] I don't know what he's wearing, but he's blinged out. [1:48:13] He's got the hoodie sweatshirt on. [1:48:15] He's got the Michael Jordan cap. [1:48:16] That's a thing. [1:48:17] The Michael Jordan cap, Michael Jordan clothing. [1:48:20] We saw this with what's his name over in Maryland? [1:48:24] Maryland man, [1:48:26] Kilmer Abrego Garcia. [1:48:27] And he's with another guy wearing a hoodie, a red hoodie next to him. [1:48:32] So there there's some circumstantial [1:48:34] evidence of that maybe this guy is in a gang. [1:48:38] He got here in twenty, twenty three and promptly joined a gang. [1:48:41] Great job. [1:48:41] Great job, Joe Biden. [1:48:45] What's really sickening is the fact that he's being protected by the Democratic [1:48:49] Party, he and others like him, they have become the priority of the today's [1:48:53] Democratic Party, Governor Pritzker's gone to war with the president, [1:48:56] United States to protect guys like him, and they don't want to change the narrative. [1:49:01] That's why I firmly believe they're doing [1:49:03] what they can to try to keep this low, keep them hidden and and not allow [1:49:07] the narrative that's truthful to come out. [1:49:10] What's interesting, Megan, is Loyola University and I know this area real [1:49:13] well because I live actually not that far away. [1:49:15] My daughters have walked on that beach. [1:49:19] But Loyola University has a student newspaper and they came out today [1:49:23] with an apology, essentially an apology, apologizing that he was referred to. [1:49:28] Jose Medina Medina was referred to for what he is and the illegal immigrant. [1:49:32] And they apologized for the use of the phrase illegal immigrant. [1:49:36] They didn't express any condolences to the Sheridan Gorman or her family. [1:49:40] It was it was just trying to, I guess, make it right. [1:49:45] With the immigrant activist community [1:49:47] that has become part now of the mainstream of the Democrat Party. [1:49:51] And they don't want any narrative that goes against how they're trying to describe [1:49:55] the circumstances of all these people came to America in violation of the law. [1:50:00] Now, 10 to 15 percent of them, the best estimates, [1:50:02] according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, are criminals. [1:50:06] All the others have come here. They broke the law. [1:50:09] They're probably not criminals. [1:50:10] They're trying to work to make a better life for themselves. [1:50:13] But whether they're criminals or not, they came [1:50:15] here illegally. And if we're going to be a country that respects the rule of law, [1:50:19] well, I mean, we have responsibilities to, you know, enforce that law. [1:50:25] The Democrats have decided to block the enforcement of that law for their [1:50:29] political agenda. And this guy is now caught up in that [1:50:31] political game that the Democrats are playing. [1:50:36] I mean, I guess we'll find out, because if he was in a gang in two thousand [1:50:41] and twenty three, then he probably wasn't doing a gang initiation in two thousand [1:50:46] twenty six. [1:50:47] But there is some circumstantial evidence here that the guy was flirting with the [1:50:53] gang life, possibly in gang life and in the absence of any other motive on this [1:50:57] horrific crime, which makes no sense, you've got to at least go there. [1:51:01] You have to investigate it. [1:51:02] And here's the thing. [1:51:04] As Julie Kelly, who's done great, great reporting on the federal judges and what [1:51:08] they're doing to President Trump's agenda and in particular how they tried to stymie [1:51:12] his attempt to get out Venezuelan, that's what this guy is, Venezuelan gang members. [1:51:18] And Judge Boasberg in Washington, D.C., [1:51:20] issuing a national injunction stopping it, she tweeted out the following. [1:51:26] She wrote she finds the tuberculosis, tuberculosis, isolation suspicious. [1:51:33] And she says this photo that we're showing you, if it's him, could raise [1:51:37] the possibility that Sheridan's execution was part of a gang initiation. [1:51:40] She writes, if this animal is trend to [1:51:43] Aragua, God help every single activist group and judge, starting with Jeb Boasberg, [1:51:50] blocked his deportation because, remember, Trump tried to get all trend [1:51:53] to Aragua out of the country and back to Venezuela in one fell swoop. [1:51:57] And Boasberg stopped it. [1:51:59] And she pointed out, I want to talk to you about Democrat politicians for sure, [1:52:03] including Pritzker and Brandon Johnson, the mayor. [1:52:07] But let me just play you this Julie Kelly sound. [1:52:09] But she went out with our pals Real Clear [1:52:10] Politics, great podcast and precedes my own show here on the M.K. [1:52:14] Channel and Sirius XM Channel 111. [1:52:16] And she made a great point about how the judges, too. [1:52:20] Are complicit in allowing these Venezuelan illegal gang members [1:52:26] to stay in our country, whether this guy is one or not. [1:52:29] They have permitted people just like him to stay here with impunity. [1:52:34] Listen to her. [1:52:36] One other party that I think is very culpable in all of this are federal judges. [1:52:43] Think about what's happening in Washington, D.C., with Chief Judge Jeb Boasberg, who basically was [1:52:51] the first judge to put a hold to put a brick on the president's Alien Enemies Act [1:52:57] proclamation that authorized the immediate removal of Venezuelans, [1:53:02] illegal Venezuelans who were here, who were tied to Tren del Agua. [1:53:07] Not only did Jeb Boasberg put a hold on that policy that then manifested nationwide. [1:53:14] To add to that, Jeb Boasberg is still and this case is still pending, [1:53:19] trying to order the Trump. [1:53:21] Administration to fly these 137 illegal Venezuelans men who were then sent [1:53:28] to El Salvador, then to their home country of Venezuelan to return them to the United States. [1:53:34] Still now, a year later, the Supreme Court punted on this. [1:53:38] We're still waiting for a final ruling. [1:53:40] But when you have judges and even the Supreme Court sort of look the other way [1:53:47] as the president and his administration are trying to remove the most dangerous [1:53:52] criminals who cross the border illegally during the Biden administration, [1:53:58] what does that signal to the illegals who are there? [1:54:02] It's such a good point, Rod. [1:54:06] Look, let me firmly assert, to borrow from Franklin Roosevelt, [1:54:10] Jose Medina Medina is a gangbanger. [1:54:12] Let me also firmly assert that the chances are that he's a member of Tren del [1:54:17] Agua are extremely good, and the most compelling evidence to suggest that to me [1:54:21] is how the Democrats are treating this particular heinous crime. [1:54:25] Against this poor, innocent young girl, [1:54:27] because of the fact that that goes against everything they've been saying [1:54:32] with regard to illegal immigration and proves everything that President Trump's [1:54:35] been saying, that's what I really believe is happening. [1:54:37] And I think Pritzker's made the phone [1:54:39] calls to the judges and whoever else is necessary, the prosecutors to do what they [1:54:44] can to try to keep this quiet and not let the truth out. [1:54:48] Well, let me let me add another element to it right now, because J.B. [1:54:55] Pritzker wants to be president. [1:54:57] He wants the. [1:54:58] nomination and he wants the top job. [1:55:01] This could completely sink his chances. [1:55:04] This truly could be the death knell to his presidential campaign. [1:55:08] He rejected President Trump's offer of help to try to get the illegals out [1:55:15] of Illinois even before the Minneapolis riots and all that. [1:55:19] Trump went to him and said, I want to send [1:55:22] ICE in to help you with your illegal immigration problem. [1:55:26] And he wrapped himself [1:55:28] in a flag and tried to pretend it was the patriotic thing to do to refuse that help [1:55:34] and to instead protect the illegals, including Jose Medina Medina. [1:55:40] Here is what Governor Pritzker said. [1:55:43] It's like a little montage, I think, about Trump when Trump was making that offer [1:55:48] and actually trying to insist that he be allowed to clean up the streets of the illegals. [1:55:53] Here's what Pritzker said. [1:55:55] What President Trump is doing is unprecedented. [1:55:58] And unwarranted. [1:56:00] It is unconstitutional. [1:56:03] It is un-American. [1:56:05] Find a family who's enjoying today sitting on their front porch and ask if they want [1:56:11] their neighborhoods turned into a war zone by a wannabe dictator. [1:56:16] Our small businesses suffer when our residents and visitors who are shopping [1:56:19] and eating are made to feel unsafe by the jackbooted thugs roaming around a peaceful [1:56:25] downtown. Make sure that you understand that the ICE officials. [1:56:29] Don't have a right to knock down doors and take people away. [1:56:32] We're thinking of you and doing everything we can to protect you. [1:56:35] So this is dangerous. They shouldn't be doing it. [1:56:38] It's anti-American. It's un-American. [1:56:40] It's an attack on the American people by the president of the United States. [1:56:43] It's like it's become some sort of secret police force for Donald Trump. [1:56:47] I'm saying we don't want troops on the streets of American cities. [1:56:51] That's un-American. [1:56:55] Eight months later, Sheridan Gorman was gunned down [1:56:59] by an illegal from Venezuela. [1:57:01] Who, for all we know, might have been caught by Tom Homan's guys. [1:57:05] Had they been allowed to get rid of the illegals prowling the streets? [1:57:10] This you can the campaign ad rights itself. [1:57:13] You're a politician. Can't you see it? [1:57:15] This is very dangerous for JB Pritzker. [1:57:18] And that's the motivation to do everything can to cover this up. [1:57:22] And then look at his behavior in the immediate wake of this murder. [1:57:26] He didn't say anything for four days. [1:57:27] It wasn't until the pressure was on. [1:57:30] People had noticed he hadn't said anything. [1:57:32] That he actually had a spokesperson put out a statement. [1:57:35] He didn't even say it. [1:57:36] Brandon Johnson, same thing. [1:57:37] They were just hoping it would kind of go away and not become a political issue [1:57:43] that now it has correctly become because this really highlights the question. [1:57:47] Is it about public safety first? [1:57:49] Is that the responsibility of governors and mayors and presidents? [1:57:52] Or is it about protecting gangbangers [1:57:54] and gangbangers from other countries who broke into our country illegally? [1:57:57] That's the issue. [1:57:58] And the Democrats have sided with the latter. [1:58:01] Trump. [1:58:02] They've sided with the former. [1:58:03] We have laws, enforce those laws and execute those laws. [1:58:07] But Pritzker has spent his entire [1:58:10] second term using all of his resources and energy to try to make himself a viable [1:58:15] presidential candidate on the backs of public safety of law abiding citizens, [1:58:19] including this poor young girl. And you're right. [1:58:22] It's all about his campaign now. [1:58:24] And if this blows up on him, he's then a rival. [1:58:27] But I must say, Megan, I know him real well. [1:58:29] He used to work for me. [1:58:30] He's not going to be president even if this doesn't blow up on him. [1:58:34] Why? [1:58:35] Well, because he's he's flawed in so many ways. [1:58:38] Now, he's you know, he's been dropping weight. [1:58:41] I know you know that he's doing his job. [1:58:43] He's totally on a Zempik. [1:58:44] It's there's no question about he won't admit it. [1:58:46] Clemson's walking five miles a day. [1:58:48] I've eaten lunch with this guy. [1:58:49] Sure. And, you know, let me guess. [1:58:51] It's his it's his clean water regimen. [1:58:55] Right. Anyway, I shouldn't make fun of him personally. [1:58:58] I mean, he what he ought to do is make [1:58:59] answers that because it clearly works, but what he shouldn't be is our president. [1:59:03] He shouldn't be our governor. [1:59:04] And it's a disgrace what they're doing. [1:59:07] And I shouldn't joke about this because we lost a young life. [1:59:10] I think about those parents. [1:59:11] I have two young daughters myself. [1:59:13] We can all who are parents sort of walk in their shoes and understand what they're [1:59:17] going through and pray that God has a warm, loving place for her near to him. [1:59:22] But this should have never happened. [1:59:24] It should have never happened if they [1:59:25] simply followed the law instead of playing politics. [1:59:28] But Pritzker politicized this. [1:59:29] Brandon Johnson politicized this. [1:59:31] The Democrats have politicized this. [1:59:33] And now. [1:59:34] I think. [1:59:35] They've got a real political problem on their hands. [1:59:38] Brandon Johnson continues, just like Pritzker, to blame Trump. [1:59:44] It's like it's one thing to not take [1:59:46] responsibility for your city and state policies, but to blame a president who is [1:59:52] actively trying, who has actively tried to put ICE agents in your city and state [1:59:57] in Chicago to clean it up of illegals, to turn the nerve of the gaslighting. [2:00:02] That is like epic level. [2:00:04] Here's Brandon Johnson on Tuesday, 54. [2:00:08] You know what the bigger threat to our public safety? [2:00:12] It's illegal weapons that are being [2:00:14] trafficked from from bordering states that voted for Donald Trump. [2:00:21] This president refuses to be held accountable. [2:00:25] And he points the finger at everything [2:00:27] and everyone else versus doing some real self reflection on what his responsibility is. [2:00:35] So let's just stick with the word that you like to use illegal. [2:00:39] He has promulgated illegal wars. [2:00:42] He has. [2:00:44] Protecting states that are releasing [2:00:47] illegal weapons throughout the streets of America, illegal tariffs. [2:00:53] If there is anything to address in this [2:00:56] country that's illegal, it's everything about the Trump administration. [2:01:03] That's it's just he tries to pivot. [2:01:05] He doesn't want to take one bit of responsibility or even right to apologize. [2:01:11] He was asked yesterday, we found the name of that great [2:01:13] reporter who asked him a tough question about do you want to apologize [2:01:17] to poor Sheridan? [2:01:18] But you know what? [2:01:19] He was actually very, very, very, very proud of her. [2:01:22] He was very, very, very, very proud of her. [2:01:24] And he still has to apologize to the [2:01:26] Lordman's family for the policies that got her killed. [2:01:29] And his name is William Kelly. [2:01:31] No relation, but very proud of him. [2:01:33] And he wouldn't. [2:01:34] He just kept going. [2:01:35] Oh, it's just senseless violence, gun violence, senseless gun violence and [2:01:40] Trump's fault. I mean, par for the course, a day ending. [2:01:43] And why for Democrats in Chicago? [2:01:45] No. [2:01:45] Well, we have the local alderwoman from [2:01:49] Democrat narrative and uh it's interesting too because it's not uncommon for politicians when [2:01:54] they're you know facing something that they did really wrong or failed in their duty which is [2:01:58] the case with Johnson and Pritzker to quickly pivot and point the blame at somebody else which [2:02:03] they're not doing let me point this out Megan days before this killing Pritzker had announced [2:02:08] a commission that he's forming to investigate who ice agents and law enforcement officials so that [2:02:14] in the event that a Democrat president in 2028 they're going to be held accountable for doing [2:02:19] their jobs and forcing the law to find illegal immigrants many of whom are criminals and kick [2:02:24] them out of our country so now this happened and it sort of steps on his storyline and just goes [2:02:31] to show you where their priorities are I can't even believe he's done that these people are [2:02:35] elected he is no he is toast there is just no way the Democrats really want to win in 2028 they are [2:02:43] really really over the Trump [2:02:45] presidency and the Trump Legacy and they're they are not going to nominate somebody with this level [2:02:51] of baggage on this issue they need somebody who can go up there and make the case of the horrors [2:02:56] in Minneapolis ice overreach they're disgusting pigs we hate them and they do not want somebody's [2:03:02] going to be vulnerable to because you wouldn't let that horrible group come in and help the young [2:03:09] women of Chicago Sheridan Gorman is dead they can't he's done the more I look at [2:03:15] this [2:03:15] story and see his on-camera comments like the ones I played for you over and over there there's [2:03:20] a litany of them the more I realize he's toast he is toast um and good because we can't we can't [2:03:27] have more of him and I don't like Brandon Johnson I don't know what Chicago's doing Rod but let me [2:03:31] ask you about the sanctuary City policy because I went you you left office in 2009 in in 2017 is [2:03:38] when Illinois became a sanctuary state but Chicago did it back in 1985. so what did something change [2:03:45] in the way like I lived in Chicago for five years between I don't know it was between 1995 and 2001 [2:03:54] and um it wasn't it was Chicago was wonderful back then that was you know Mayor Daley you could eat [2:04:00] off the streets it was like so clean what I don't remember a big problem of illegals you know there [2:04:05] was Cabrini Green which is where like most of the gangbangers lived and that was a way kind of away [2:04:09] from the sprawling downtown and Michigan Avenue but like what is it with Chicago and now Illinois [2:04:15] and the sanctuary [2:04:16] status well a lot of it I gotta tell you is about votes I have to tell you these illegal immigrants [2:04:23] are voting they're not just voting in Chicago I bet they're voting big time in California why [2:04:29] else would these Democrats fight so hard for them to keep them in our country when it used to be the [2:04:33] Democratic Party agreed that illegal immigrants should be deported look I believe in the dreamers [2:04:39] program and I believe that hopefully the Republicans and Democrats can come together [2:04:42] at some point and find a way to address the needs of these good people who [2:04:46] came you know violated immigration laws and ought to stay that's my personal belief a lot of those [2:04:51] dreamers actually serve in our military they work and they're not criminals but none of that's going [2:04:57] to happen as long as our country is so divided on the immigration issues and the Democrats refuse to [2:05:02] to do anything to address all the the millions who came here when Biden unlocked the door and [2:05:08] let them all in there's got to be like 15 million I mean they they would say the Democrats will say [2:05:12] they can't vote if they're not a citizen they everyone has to provide proof of [2:05:16] citizenship in order to get registered to vote that's what they still claim right well it isn't [2:05:22] true and and and this is the part of the motivation behind fighting so hard for these illegal immigrants [2:05:28] it's a it's a voting block for them and uh look Obama and I came out of Chicago politics at the [2:05:34] same time this wasn't back then what it is now when it comes to the number of illegal immigrants [2:05:40] but if you're asking me do Democrats steal votes in places like Chicago Philadelphia Detroit and [2:05:45] Atlanta and big cities across the country [2:05:48] the answer is is the Pope Catholic Obama knows that I know that uh I think both of us won our [2:05:53] elections irrespective of how many people were doing that on our behalf but that's just how [2:05:58] politics works in Chicago and works in big cities and I know exactly where they do it and they do it [2:06:03] in low-income areas where they control polling places and they do it through what used to be [2:06:06] absentee ballots which became bail-in ballots which are absentee ballots on steroids the fact [2:06:12] that the Democrats refused to vote for the Save America Act show voter ID proof of citizenship [2:06:18] you know all of these things tell you there's got to be a reason why it's because they vote them and [2:06:24] they vote the way they're told because they're unsophisticated voters and they can be controlled [2:06:29] and the Democrat party I used to be a member I still consider myself a trumpocrat Democrat for [2:06:34] Trump but the Democrat party has really been about coalitions and this is the new coalition [2:06:39] of the Democrat party the new voting block illegal immigrants how exactly would they do it because [2:06:50] they do have to send in you know your driver's license something that would prove that you that [2:06:54] you your driver's license doesn't necessarily prove that you're uh an American citizen but in [2:06:59] any event how like how do they do it how do they get the illegals ballots that they could fill out [2:07:04] in the first place well I mean so they have organizations these grassroots organizations [2:07:12] that are immigrant rights groups and you know they're active in the community they work closely [2:07:17] with the local Democratic political organizations and I believe they [2:07:21] coordinate efforts to go vote as many people as they possibly can and whatever the you know [2:07:26] tactics or subterfuge they use whether it's through a mail-in ballot or an absentee ballot or whether [2:07:31] it's just there at the polling place and somebody shows up and is just voting somebody else's name [2:07:37] who didn't show up which is a not uncommon practice in places where Democrats control the whole polling [2:07:43] place the Republican judges in those polling places are really Democrats dressed up as [2:07:48] Republicans just for appearances sake um so they there's several ways [2:07:52] to do it back in the day when I was starting even before I got into politics and I was a young [2:07:57] lawyer I'd worked as a prosecutor in the Cook County State's strings office for then Cook County [2:08:01] State's attorney Richard Daly he was my boss there were like 800 of us I was in the misdemeanor courts [2:08:06] I never met him until I actually got elected to office but back then I was after I'd left [2:08:11] and gone to private practice and I met my wife her father was a Chicago Ward boss and and you [2:08:17] know 50 60 of his district his Ward was Latino voters they were always very good to me and good [2:08:23] to him and we were very close to the Latino community and still are but among the ways you [2:08:28] can get votes was you'd have a guy and I'm going to name him he he's a good guy a political activist [2:08:34] the way it was in Chicago he would go into the homes of immigrants and unregistered voters get [2:08:42] them registered and then he would vote them absentee but then he would gather and collect and [2:08:47] bundle the absentee ballots and put them in a freezer because if you put them in a freezer and [2:08:52] you freeze them once you uh [2:08:54] you can look and see how the person voted and if you don't like how they voted you can spoil the [2:08:59] ballot and go back and have them do it a second time this is one example of one guy who's very [2:09:03] active he got indicted uh in Cook County and I was asked by my father-in-law to go representative in [2:09:09] a grand jury and uh it turned out he wouldn't say I told him just don't say anything because [2:09:15] that's a lawyer you're a lawyer you know this don't say anything and he took literally took [2:09:20] me took my advice wouldn't even say his name on the record um nothing happened to him but [2:09:24] that was a practice back then just imagine what they're doing now with this whole block of tens of [2:09:32] thousands hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants who who are here and are just going [2:09:36] to do what the local community leaders are asking them to do because they're being helped in other [2:09:40] ways that's how I think they're doing it and I believe it's happening largely in places like in [2:09:49] sanctuary cities and that's why they're being given sanctuary which in my opinion seems to be [2:09:54] so unconstitutional and so unlawful [2:09:55] that you'd have a place that basically invites people from other countries to break into our [2:10:00] country come to our city and we'll protect you that's the new Democratic Party today that's what [2:10:04] they're saying and too many of these people who come are good people most of them are good people [2:10:09] they're coming for an opportunity to work but they've been misled by the Democrats we've invited [2:10:13] them in to come in and they believe that they'll be protected in these Sanctuary cities which they [2:10:17] are and then they won't be found out but the American people have woken up and we have a [2:10:23] problem that cannot be sustained because how can you possibly [2:10:26] contain 15 million people who came into our country illegally and burden the taxpayers and [2:10:31] then take resources away from people Americans who truly need it like underprivileged communities the [2:10:36] black community for example the Democrats say they're and I feel like I'm I'm sorry if they're [2:10:41] nice people I'm sorry if a lot of them are nice people and just want a better life if we have even [2:10:45] one Sheridan Gorman it's not worth it it's not worth it like they're if they come at too high [2:10:50] a price for because for every 10 you let in who just want to improve their lives you get a Jose [2:10:54] Medina Medina and the next thing you know poor Sheridan [2:10:57] has nothing sure her future is ended her family will be hurting forever and for what for what [2:11:04] that's that's really the question you're asking you have a theory for what and it makes no there's [2:11:10] no redeeming value to what that man brought into the United States none whatsoever it's a wonderful [2:11:16] thing to see you I hope you come back on when you're when your book hits in August thanks I [2:11:21] appreciate that I look forward to it it's nice to see you it's been a couple of years hasn't I know [2:11:25] yeah but I really enjoyed our talk when you got out of the [2:11:28] pokey so thanks for coming on and talking about it well Steve look up the episode number so we can [2:11:33] tell him that what that is see you soon Rod um there's there's a lot there's a lot more to go [2:11:39] on and I'm going to end the show now because I want to get to let Emily do the after show and [2:11:43] folks can call in and so on but I just want to tell you it's episode 274 if you want to listen [2:11:49] to the uh long form interview between yours truly and Rod Blagojevich it's really good 274 it talks [2:11:53] all about his life in prison and like did he join a gang how did he stay protected and was he violated [2:11:59] we went we went there we went everywhere and he was great um in New York City today there is a [2:12:07] piece about an 83 year old veteran who was shoved under the New York City subway tracks days ago and [2:12:14] he's just died from his injuries an 83 year old U.S Air Force veteran randomly shoved onto the [2:12:22] subway tracks by an illegal on the Upper East Side and now grandfather Richard Williams is dead he [2:12:30] succumbed to his injuries after being [2:12:33] pushed by another man waiting for a train at the Lexington Avenue 63rd Street Station on March 8th [2:12:40] just you know just FYI whatever Lex and 63rd is a very nice part of town you know it's it's not like [2:12:49] a sketchy part where you might think oh God don't go down to the subway no it's like completely [2:12:54] smack dab in the middle of the business District it's not far away from where Bernie Madoff used [2:12:58] to have his offices and this guy is standing this 83 year old man who who has fought in war [2:13:04] for [2:13:05] the United States of America there are pictures of him quite a few I've seen now of him wearing his [2:13:10] dog tags he was clearly really proud of his military service and he lived to tell about [2:13:15] it only to be killed by some thug illegal down in on the subway tracks the alleged attacker was from [2:13:27] Honduras look at this absolute scumbag Byron Hernandez 34. he was arrested March 10th his [2:13:36] charge is now upgraded to murder now that poor Richard [2:13:39] has died and you can see video the video does not show Byron actually it does but they haven't [2:13:47] released this piece of it um actually throwing Richard onto the tracks but he does and you can [2:13:52] see that in the video it shows him leering toward the tracks after shoving the victims so you can [2:13:57] sort of see here yeah you can see there's the perpetrator the accused perpetrator kind of [2:14:04] lingering on the tracks after he has shoved Richard down on the tracks and then another man he shoved [2:14:13] get back up so he lived through the attack but as I say died a couple of weeks later prosecutors had [2:14:20] said that Williams Richard Williams was brain dead and his daughter Debbie told the New York Post [2:14:26] he was not likely to pull through they could see and it's been declared a homicide of course [2:14:30] another man named John Pena was also shoved onto the tracks age 30 and he's the one who heroically [2:14:37] helped pull Williams back on the platform but to no avail he's died he has now died for what why [2:14:46] do we have to deal with this guy he this guy Hernandez was a serial criminal I mean you knew [2:14:51] this was coming serial criminal lengthy rap sheet at least 15 charges including aggravated assault [2:14:59] possession of a weapon domestic violence and so on according to DHS he had been deported from the [2:15:06] United States four times but kept returning to the country illegally again per DHS how many times do [2:15:14] we have to have this story how many times [2:15:17] that's Kate Steinle's murderer's story too deported five times long rap sheet we don't [2:15:25] know the guy you know accused of killing Sheridan was allegedly only arrested for shoplifting back [2:15:33] in 2023 didn't even show up no penalty it's fine we let them in we don't follow up on where they [2:15:41] are we let them commit crime with impunity we don't in most of these jurisdictions cooperate [2:15:47] with ice to at least if not going to prosecute him make sure he at least gets the boot out of [2:15:50] the country [2:15:52] we set them loose we we we send out our young girls like lambs to the slaughter to be slaughtered [2:15:58] by these thug illegals and then you have places like the student newspaper as Rod pointed out the [2:16:05] in on at Loyola which is called the Loyola Loyola Phoenix writing articles apologizing for calling [2:16:12] them illegal immigrants I mean spend a day on the Megyn Kelly show they're illegal thug pigs that's [2:16:19] what they are does that solve it for you Phoenix who the hell's [2:16:23] it about their feelings Sheridan Gorman is dead and you're worried about hurting the feelings [2:16:29] of this illegal you're worried about offending him by calling him not even an illegal alien but [2:16:35] an illegal immigrant would they write that no human's existence is illegal and we quickly [2:16:41] changed our wording to reflect that it is a reference to one's immigration status not to [2:16:47] one's humanity they know that it's more important to them to kowtow to the woke reading their woke [2:16:56] low circulation newspaper to pat themselves on the back you're part of the problem they say oh we [2:17:04] took the headline down immediately it didn't reflect the most important elements in the story [2:17:08] took it down moments later to prevent any further harm to affected community members who you have a [2:17:14] bunch of thug illegals in your community no normal Hispanic person is going to be offended by the use [2:17:19] of the word illegal is that what you mean Hispanics no no normal Asian no normal African is going to [2:17:27] be offended offended [2:17:28] the term illegal. What are you assuming about the people reading your newspaper? They go on to say [2:17:34] that language was provided by DHS, but it doesn't align with the Associated Press style, [2:17:41] nor with the values of this newspaper. We acknowledge the harm such language can cause [2:17:47] and the power and importance of the words we choose to use. Yes, the words are important, [2:17:52] but not in the way you think. We deeply regret these errors. Do you deeply regret the murder [2:17:58] of Sheridan Gorman, your colleague on campus at Loyola? Where is your long piece apologizing to [2:18:05] her family for these disgusting policies and the woke assholes like yourselves that enabled them? [2:18:13] That's what you should be sorry about. Don't go there. I'm thinking about a young girl I know, [2:18:21] she's finishing now, but who got into some great law schools, great law schools. And at the last [2:18:27] minute, she got into the University of Chicago. And I said, you should go there. It's number one. [2:18:30] It's amazing. Chicago's awesome. [2:18:32] And thank God she's OK. But I just think now if she were to ask me now, I'd say you shouldn't go [2:18:38] there. I did even at the time tell her it was dangerous. I mean, Chicago has gotten a lot more [2:18:42] dangerous since I was there, thanks to policies like these. Mayor Daley is no longer there. He [2:18:46] was a Democrat, but he was a normal Democrat, you know, probably corrupt, but really good at his job [2:18:51] and cared about things like crime and cleanliness. Now, I would not want my kids going there. Like, [2:18:59] I'd be worried sick. And I feel so bad for Sheridan Gorman. [2:19:03] Sheridan's mom, Jessica, who I feel like I know, she was part of our Megyn Kelly Show community. [2:19:08] She came to the tour, as I mentioned. And I'm sure she was thrilled she got into Loyola, [2:19:13] a Jesuit university, and thought this will be great for her. She's a girl of faith. The family [2:19:18] is too. And you pray God to look over her. And we all as parents convince ourselves that that's [2:19:24] going to work. We have to convince ourselves that that's going to work. And when it doesn't, [2:19:33] you have a reconciliation to work through. You know, you have a lot to work through. And I'm [2:19:38] sure the family's going through that right now. Anyway, it's not just Chicago, is my point. This [2:19:43] is New York. It's happened in so many places. You know, Lake and Riley, that illegal came from New [2:19:48] York, and we shipped them down to Georgia on the taxpayer dime. It's every month we have some young [2:19:57] woman or man, but often it's these young women cut short in the prime of their lives, thanks to [2:20:03] these thugs who never should have been here. This guy should have been Venezuela's problem, not [2:20:08] ours. [2:20:11] I hope you'll join us then.