Senate Committee Hearing to Examine Exposing Fraud in America - 7/15/26

[1:09] We're getting there. The committee will come to order. In my office, I keep a clock that measures [1:54] our national debt in real time. This morning, that clock stood at nearly $40 trillion. [2:01] Washington taxes the American people. Washington borrows against our grandchildren's future [2:06] earnings. Then Washington sends billions of dollars out the door, often without knowing [2:11] who receives it, if any service was performed, or even if the business exists. The federal [2:17] government loses hundreds of billions of dollars to fraud every year. And when the money disappears, [2:23] politicians act surprised. No private business would survive this way. A bank confirms an account [2:29] exists before wiring the money. A credit card company flags suspicious changes in seconds. [2:36] An insurance company verifies that the patient exists and the treatment occurred before paying [2:41] a claim. They verify first because it is their money that's online. But when the money belongs to [2:47] the taxpayer, Washington pays first and asks questions later, if it asks them at all. [2:53] Our first witness, Nick Shirley, decided to see for himself. In Minneapolis, he visited supposed [2:58] daycare centers that had collected millions of dollars from taxpayers. He found industrial [3:04] buildings with blacked out windows, no playgrounds, no children, no employees, no one answering the [3:09] door. These were not complicated accounting irregularities buried deep inside a federal database. [3:15] The question was obvious. What exactly are taxpayers paying for? Mr. Shirley found the same warning [3:20] signs at autism centers, home health companies, and other providers collecting large government [3:26] reimbursements. In California, he found hospice and health care companies stacked into single [3:31] office complexes. Some marked by nothing more than a sheet of printer paper taped to a door. [3:37] Many couldn't answer the basic questions about their own patients. A private insurer would have [3:41] stopped payment immediately. The federal government kept writing the checks. Prosecutors have now [3:47] charged 15 people in Minnesota with schemes involving more than $90 million. One autism services scheme [3:54] alone, $46.6 million in fraud. The Justice Department calls it the largest Medicaid autism fraud case [4:02] in its history. Prosecution is necessary, but it comes after the money is gone. The fraudsters have [4:10] already been paid. The families who needed care have already been cheated. Taxpayers may only recover pennies [4:16] on the dollar. Government should verify before it pays. Does the provider exist? Are real people performing [4:23] real work? Are the patients eligible? Were the services necessary? Are the invoices honest? These are not radical [4:31] demands. It is what hardworking American taxpayers deserve. When government refuses to verify, it does not [4:37] merely endanger taxpayer dollars. It destroys public confidence in our elections. In [4:42] California, James O'Keefe revealed a cash for ballots election fraud scheme targeting homeless men and women who [4:48] were offered cash, cigarettes and marijuana in exchange for signatures on petitions and voter [4:54] registration forms. So far, one individual exposed to Mr O'Keefe's undercover video footage pled guilty to federal [5:00] charges. Mr. Shirley followed the money. Mr O'Keefe followed the signatures. Both found the same [5:07] machine. A system that rewards volume, discourages scrutiny, and depends upon someone in authority [5:14] looking the other way. In one system, government counts the claims and sends the money without asking who [5:20] received it or what work was performed. In the other, officials accept registrations without asking who signed [5:27] them or whether the process was legitimate or whether the process was legitimate. Whether Washington is [5:31] distributing taxpayer dollars or safeguarding the ballot, government processes first and [5:37] investigates later. Then years after the damage is done, announces an indictment and expects applause. Fraud is not an ordinary [5:45] cost to government. It is theft, theft of taxpayers earnings, theft of needed services, and theft of the legitimate vote. Our [5:54] witnesses went where government investigators had not gone and asked the questions the bureaucracy refused to ask. I thank [6:01] them for their relentless commitment to exposing fraud and demanding accountability. The American people deserve better from their [6:09] government, including Congress, who keeps writing the checks. Senator Peters. Thank you, Chairman Paul. The government has a [6:21] responsibility to ensure that taxpayer dollars are used efficiently, effectively and [6:26] responsibly. And when there is evidence of waste, fraud and abuse and taxpayer funded [6:28] programs. The government must take action to recover the cost and hold wrongdoers accountable. [6:37] My time serving in this committee, I've been proud to work across the aisle with many of my colleagues to improve oversight of taxpayer dollars and fight fraud. I worked with Senator [6:42] Ernst and Senator Hassan to pass bipartisan legislation to prevent conflicts of interest in federal contracts. After learning that a company was being paid with tax dollars to advise the government on oversight of the pharmaceutical industry, while simultaneously being paid by pharma companies to help market their drugs. We passed a bill to end the [6:59] practice and to make sure the taxpayer dollars are being used in Americans best interest. I worked with Senator Kennedy to pass a bipartisan bill to improve government data access, which will save millions of taxpayer dollars by preventing improper payments to deceased [7:19] people. I worked with Senator Carper and Senator McCaskill to block scams that were hurting small businesses by fraudulently selling services to secure government contracts, services that the government already provides to small businesses for free. And when Congress was responding to the unprecedented COVID-19 pandemic, the government [7:40] was significant emergency spending. I worked with significant emergency spending. I worked with Senator Johnson to establish the pandemic response accountability committee. We fought to ensure that there were strong oversight mechanisms, including alongside those resources, because we knew that bad actors would try to take advantage of the situation. To date, the practice supported more than 50 in the [8:12] investigative partners and over 1200 investigations and has identified 2.5 billion dollars in potential fraud. That is true that the government is now continuing to try to recover. In fact, the prac model has been so successful that chairman Paul, you work to expand its oversight responsibilities as part of the big beautiful bill. It is an unfortunate reality that there is always the risk of fraud in government programs, which is why we need strong controls. A strong oversight of government spending to [8:43] ensure taxpayer dollars to ensure taxpayer dollars are going to help the American people and not the fraudsters. Our federal government had more of these strong oversight mechanisms up until last year when President Trump fired 19 independent inspector generals in violation of the law. He removed experienced independent investigators with a strong record of identifying waste and fraud and replace them with cronies. It's hard to overstate the damage that has been done to [9:13] independent independent oversight. Many of the watchdogs we count on to identify wrongdoings are now fearful that they will be fired or retaliated against just for doing their job. On top of that, President Trump created Doge and let inexperienced staffers led by Elon Musk make arbitrary cuts across the federal government. Doge was supposed to save a trillion dollars. Instead, their reckless cuts caused chaos and may have actually cost taxpayers more in the long run as the administration has [9:44] had to rehire workers. They had to rehire workers and reinstate contracts that they canceled. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to have his consent to enter the record a report that I released last May without objection. [9:52] Without objection. Thank you. This report which found that the federal government could have saved taxpayers more than 175 billion by implementing recommendations from the 19 independent inspector generals that President Trump fired unlawfully far more money than Doge ever delivered. President Trump is also proposing a new [10:05] scheme to control federal grant dollars that will allow him to direct taxpayer dollars to [10:25] punish partisan enemies all while undermining independent oversight. [10:30] Not only have President Trump's actions created an environment where fraud can thrive. [10:35] But incredibly, he is also pardoned multiple convicted fraudsters who have combined have committed billions of dollars worth of fraud pardoned by President Trump. These pardons wiped out an estimated 1.3 billion in restitution and have frequently gone to wealthy and well-connected [10:52] individuals. It sends a signal that you have money or the president's favor. You can commit fraud without consequence. [11:00] And finally, if we're going to talk about fraud, waste and abuse, we must also talk about how President Trump has abused his public office to enrich himself and his family, not improve the everyday lives of Americans who are protect taxpayer dollars. [11:18] Since taking office in 2025 President Trump and his family has made an estimated $2 billion from cryptocurrency alone. And if this committee is serious about tackling fraud, I hope we could work together to hold the administration accountable for the ways in which they have undercut independent oversight and fulfill our own role to conduct oversight of the administration's actions that have unquestionably enabled fraud. [11:42] We need to restore the strong experience of independent watchdogs who have a proven track record of fighting fraud and getting money back for the American people rather than amplifying sensationalized social media that takes a more focused on getting views than on actually getting the truth. [12:04] Mr. Chairman, we share the goal of saving taxpayer dollars and making our government more efficient. [12:10] And when you're ready to bring in federal officials to testify, conduct oversight and advance additional legislation to crack down on fraud, my colleagues and I are ready to do the work. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [12:21] It is the practice of this committee to swear in witnesses. Will each of you please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. So help you God. Thank you. [12:39] Thank you may be seated. Our first witness will be Nick Shirley. He is an independent journalist known for his on the ground investigations, which he publishes on his social media pages and the anti fraud club website. Mr. Shirley. [12:57] My name is Nick Shirley. I'm a 100% independent journalist who seeks each day to serve we the people of the United States with the mission to show the world the reality of things as they really are. [13:09] America was built and created by strong men and women who loved America and never would have thought to rob, steal or cheat from its very own citizens. Unfortunately today, America's good faith has been abused by others, often foreigners who seek to harm, rob and cheat America. [13:24] Through my efforts, I've exposed billions of dollars of fraud and helped save America hundreds of billions for years to come. When we talk about fraud, we are talking about money that is being stolen from hardworking, law abiding taxpaying citizens. This issue has nothing to do with political parties. No dollar says Republican or Democrat on it. When a fraudster commits fraud, he or she steals from all of us. Last December, I published a 43 minute long video exposing widespread fraud and [13:55] Minnesota. That video became one of the most viewed videos in internet history and gained over 4 billion views in just seven days across all forms of media. The fraud was so obvious that the fraudsters weren't even trying to hide it. The infamous Quality Leering Center was born and that video has become one of the most consequential videos in America history by the amount of legislation it has created. Since posting it, over 30 bills have been created and introduced in Congress regarding fraud. A new fraud task force has been created and the Treasury is working [14:26] working on new systems to stop fraud at unprecedented levels. I helped ignite a war on fraud across the country. People often wonder how come this fraud became so big and how come it becomes so rampant. And the reason is because no one actually ever really looked into it. When Elon Musk offered to help by creating Doge, people burned his factories, bombed his cars, and politicians even celebrated his company's stock going down. Elon was right when he said the fraudsters complained the loudest. [14:57] President Trump was right when he saw the wrong way of doing the wrong way. We were also right when he had found the politicians and media who worked for years to cover it up. Governor Tim Waltz labeled my work as white supremacy and called me a far right delusional conspiracy theorist. Meanwhile, he dropped out of re-election and he even said he has ended his political career. [15:12] the highest government funded daycare in Minnesota has pleaded guilty to daycare [15:15] fraud and the largest autism bust in America history has been exposed. Where is [15:20] Tim Walts in the media now? It just so happens that over 80% of the fraud [15:24] committed in Minnesota is by the Somali population. After Minnesota I exposed [15:28] widespread fraud in California within the daycare and hospice community where [15:33] an impossible one-third of Americans on hospice care were set to die in Los [15:37] Angeles. The next day the governor Gavin Newsom posted an AI-generate image of [15:42] myself trying to mock and discredit my work. Only days later he and his Attorney [15:47] General both try to take credit for exposing the fraud. Now the Attorney [15:51] General's wife has created a bill that would make it criminal to expose fraud. [15:55] The Stop Nick Shirley Act also known as AB 2624 will help fraudsters cover up their [16:01] crimes and prevent themselves from being exposed specifically in immigrant [16:05] communities. Politicians often use immigrant communities to commit fraud. [16:09] Why would why would they allow this to happen? In California Medi-Cal their [16:16] Medicaid program has now more than doubled from 108 billion dollars in 2022 to [16:22] propose 22 222 billion while enrollment has only rose by less than 1%. The [16:29] system is filled with bad actors and fraudsters. In New York City government [16:34] funded adult daycares pay for elderly Koreans and Chinese to play ping pong [16:39] and do Tai Chi at the taxpayers and expense at the taxpayers expense an [16:43] impossible number of patients are registered and those patients receive [16:47] kickbacks for attending and signing up their friends. Over 2 billion dollars has [16:51] gone to these fraudsters at the taxpayers expense and I'm just one person doing the [16:57] work of many people. If the government and media is not going to do their job to [17:01] help America it's a responsibility of strong men and women however old they may [17:05] be to do it. I am doing it despite the threats and burdens that come it must be [17:10] done. I'm doing it with the help of everyday Americans that government paid [17:16] officials are supposed to do and the media teams across the country have millions of [17:21] dollars to do this yet they don't look into this fraud. They've actually quite [17:26] literally failed us. If we as Americans do not stand up to protect our country we will [17:31] lose our country. Fraud is so rampant in the United States I could go to all 50 [17:35] states and uncover millions of dollars of tax dollars being defrauded and wasted [17:41] and abused is my wish while sitting in front of you guys today that you take [17:44] action help Americans by by cracking down on all the fraud and to simply put [17:50] Americans first. Thank you. Our next witness is James O'Keefe he's an American [17:58] investigative journalist and media entrepreneur. He's the founder of Project [18:02] Veritas and currently serves as the founder and CEO of O'Keefe Media Group. [18:07] Mr. O'Keefe. Chairman Paul, Ranking Member Peters and members of this committee thank [18:13] you for the opportunity to testify. In February of 2026 I disguised myself as a [18:18] homeless person and approached a petition circulator on Skid Row near San Pedro and [18:22] South 6th Street in downtown LA. I saw cash clipped to his shirt which I thought was [18:28] odd. The petition circulator told me we're gonna need 14 signatures and we're gonna pay [18:32] you two dollars. One of our reporters disguised as a heroin addict with track [18:37] marks on his arm asked the homeless what's going on here. They all replied [18:40] with one word money. We recorded a woman named Brown handing over cash as payment [18:45] in exchange for a homeless person to register to vote in a federal election. [18:49] Now that is a federal crime. Congress expressly criminalizes payments to people [18:54] to register to vote. Why? Because the vote is sacred. It's an act of conscience of [18:59] judgment and when it becomes contaminated by incentives. When it is for sale it [19:04] undermines the sanctity and fairness of the process designed to elect those who [19:07] represent us. Our investigation contributed to a federal criminal [19:10] prosecution with US Attorney Bill Esselia saying once I saw these videos I [19:14] went to work. Brown described the whole thing as a quote pyramid game and then [19:20] came the irony. In a neighborhood of NGOs in Los Angeles designed to protect the [19:25] vulnerable homeless population the person being confronted by the NGOs was not [19:29] the fraudster it was the reporter exposing the fraud. Just minutes after we [19:33] exposed these felonies I was approached by a man who identified himself as being [19:36] with the LAPD and he began to record me. When I pressed him he admitted he was [19:42] actually with the LA Homelesses Authority. Under California law that's a crime. So [19:46] this was also a form of fraud albeit covering up for the fraud happening [19:49] across the street. But it got worse. We witnessed petition circulators giving [19:53] marijuana in exchange for signatures on the petitions and when they spotted our [19:57] camera. They told one of our reporters I'm gonna knock your bleeping ass don't [20:01] come over here again I'm gonna beat your ass. He threatened us so we decided to [20:05] band together. We formed a citizen journalism justice league featuring Savannah [20:09] Hernandez, Cam Higby, Anthony Rubin and John Tro. And over the next few weeks we [20:13] caught dozens of these cash and drug exchanges for signatures on the petitions. [20:17] Together over the course of those next few weeks we released reporting that [20:21] prompted the governor of California not to attack us but to say that what we did was [20:26] was was important and the activity should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of [20:30] the law. We also found next ballot petitioners asking homeless to sign in [20:34] other people's names. We recorded over the shoulder one petitioner who took out [20:39] his phone to access an online database to pull voter rolls and addresses. Quote I [20:44] have an Idaho address said the voter. The petitioner says I'm going to give you an [20:48] address to write your name is Robert. Another says I'm giving you a new name. So he [20:53] visited the residents of those people who are disenfranchised. One of the names was [20:58] Vicki Walker. The homeowner at that address said for nine years he received election [21:02] mail in the name of this Vicki Walker. In fact he told me he'd received so many [21:06] ballots in the name of Vicki Walker he named his cat Vicki Walker. We returned to ask for [21:12] comment from the petitioner who was offering drugs in exchange for signatures. The same [21:15] individual who had threatened us earlier he grabbed the petitions and hid them in his [21:19] car. When we caught up to him one of his associates charged at us and punched my [21:25] producer in the neck. The two men then charged at me and right before they [21:29] struck us Cam Higby deployed pepper spray. With pepper spray in their eyes the [21:34] two men continued to attempt to assail us. My colleague Braden and I had no [21:38] choice but to run for our lives. To this day all the fraudsters that committed [21:43] state crimes roam free. This as Nick has said is not a political issue. It's not a [21:50] partisan issue. It's not a conspiracy theory and is most certainly not [21:54] circumstantial evidence. Everything I've testified to you here all the quotes and [21:58] many more are all recorded on tape. So the question before this committee is not [22:04] whether the fraud exists or whether it's happening. Oftentimes in politics you all [22:09] debate the facts. The facts are what they are. The question is why the incentives [22:14] allow it to flourish. There is money in fraud but there's no money in exposing the [22:19] fraud. And when laws are ignored without consequences fraud becomes the incentive. [22:26] Fraud becomes the model of life. Tony Moore one of the coordinators for the [22:32] ballot petitions told us if there's no consequences it doesn't matter. And that's [22:36] the point. I don't have subpoena power. Us journalists don't have the power to [22:40] anything but expose. They campaign in this building about freedom and protecting [22:44] democracy and preventing disenfranchisement and how nobody is above [22:47] the law. But those principles are not enforced when they are violated in broad [22:51] daylight. They're not principles at all. The slogans and without accountability our [22:58] notion of freedom. Is just an illusion. Thank you. Senator Peters will introduce our [23:07] third witness. Mr. Dillon Lurga that is the acting vice president of policy and [23:15] government affairs at the project on government oversight commonly known as POGO. [23:20] Mr. Hedler-Gadet is a nationally recognized expert in a range of good [23:24] government issues including government ethics, anti-corruption policy, separation [23:29] of powers, the rule of law, and government operations integrity and effectiveness. He [23:34] has testified before Congress on eight separate occasions on a variety of topics [23:38] including preventing waste and fraud, defense spending accountability, judicial [23:43] ethics, and undue foreign influence. Mr. Hedler-Gadet and POGO have routinely [23:51] engaged with Congress on bipartisan and pragmatic solutions to address government [23:55] program integrity and protect taxpayer dollars. Thank you for joining us today and we [24:00] appreciate your testimony. Chairman Paul, ranking member Peters and members of the [24:09] committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is Dillon [24:14] Hedler-Gadet and I'm the acting vice president of policy and government affairs at the project [24:18] on government oversight. We are a nonpartisan independent watchdog organization with 45 years of experience [24:24] in promoting accountability, transparency, and effectiveness in the federal government. If you [24:30] wouldn't mind, I'd like to start with some data to paint a bit of a picture for us. We currently spend [24:37] about seven trillion dollars a year in terms of our federal budget. In fiscal year 2025, we ran a 1.8 [24:43] trillion dollar federal budget deficit. We currently carry a federal debt load of about 40 trillion [24:49] dollars and payments on that, I'm sorry, interest payments on that debt are the third largest annual [24:56] expenditure we make each year. The fourth largest of which is our defense budget, which now comes in [25:01] at a cool one trillion dollars. And if President Trump has his way, that number will balloon to a staggering [25:06] 1.5 trillion dollars this year. Why do I start with this big picture data? It's important to realize that [25:14] vast sums of taxpayer dollars are at stake when we talk about the issues of waste fraud and abuse. It's equally [25:20] important to remember that the federal government has an equally vast responsibility and an obligation to be the best [25:25] possible and most responsible caretaker and steward of those taxpayer dollars. We have more data that can [25:33] tell us a little bit about how well the federal government is delivering on that responsibility. [25:38] Recently, the Government Accountability Office issued a report in which it estimated that in fiscal year [25:43] 2025, the federal government issued 186 billion dollars in improper payments, bringing the total of improper [25:49] payments issued since fiscal year 2003 to 3 trillion dollars or thereabouts. GAO also estimated that in 2024 [25:58] alone, we lost somewhere between 230 and 520 billion dollars to fraud. Lastly, GAO tells us and projects [26:08] that if we were to work harder to eradicate duplication, fragmentation, and overlap in federal government [26:13] programs, we would be able to save 100 billion dollars a year. Now, what does this data tell us? [26:21] This tells us pretty categorically that we, and in particular the federal government, are not doing a good [26:25] enough job overseeing and managing the country's precious public resources. And the only way to get there is to [26:33] promote actionable, common sense, pragmatic reforms, and it is those exact kinds of reforms that I'm here [26:38] to talk about today. First, we must look to internal watchdogs and oversight practitioners, such as [26:45] Inspector General, the Government Accountability Office, the Office of Government Ethics, the Office of [26:49] Special Counsel, and others. And we must strengthen, empower, and fully resource them to perform their [26:56] essential functions as the taxpayers' eyes and ears from within the federal government. Second, we must also [27:04] provide safe and secure reporting and disclosure channels for federal whistleblowers. Courageous [27:09] individuals from within the government often blow the whistle and expose some of the worst waste [27:13] fraud, abuse, corruption, and malfeasance, and they are often all too common on the receiving end of [27:18] reprisal and retaliation for doing so. It is imperative that Congress create these safe and secure [27:23] disclosure channels while also strengthening protections from retaliation and reprisal for [27:27] federal whistleblowers. Lastly, the technical architecture that the federal government currently uses [27:33] to monitor, track, analyze, and assess federal funding is woefully inadequate. Key databases and [27:39] resources like usaspending.gov and the system for award management are in desperate need of overhaul [27:43] and modernization. Congress should start by dramatically expanding the quality and quantity of the data [27:50] and information required to be reported and collected up and down the spending chain. Congress should also [27:55] work to bring parity in data collection and information reporting across program categories and spending types. [28:03] Lastly, Congress should also hold federal agencies feet to the fire to comply with existing reporting and [28:08] disclosure requirements, which agencies are often not doing at all. The upshot here is that waste, [28:15] fraud, abuse, and corruption are real and they are pernicious and we must do something about them. The only [28:21] way we're going to solve them is by some of the reforms and others that I have laid out here today, [28:25] but we're not going to solve them by focusing on sensationalistic anecdotes, clout chasing viral [28:31] internet videos, or provocative pseudo-documentaries. We're also not going to solve these problems [28:36] by demonizing and scapegoating specific communities and constituencies based on partisan, [28:40] political, and ideological agendas. Thank you again for inviting me here to testify today and [28:45] I look forward to your questions. We're going to begin a round of questions and I'm going to defer [28:49] my time to Senator Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So we've had in testimony and opening statements a [28:57] couple jabs, I guess, at Nick Shirley's videos. The only reason that we're taking fraud seriously is [29:03] because of that independent journalism sitting in front of us. The fact that he exposed in all its [29:11] gory detail how grotesque and how blatant this fraud is, how rampant it is. So, you know, Mr. [29:19] Hitler-Gaudet, listen, I agree with most of your prescriptions here. Chairman of the committee, [29:25] we had you testify. I've been trying to support inspector generals. Now we've had to, [29:30] got a couple of inspector generals resigning ahead of the posse because they're certainly not perfect [29:35] as well. But the problem I have with all the prescriptions is it hasn't worked. The lowest [29:42] estimate I hear fraud in federal government is $250 billion a year. I think you said $230 billion. [29:47] We had in a subcommittee hearing Lexis Nexis saying it's a trillion dollars. It wasn't really until [29:55] this administration with DOGE, which is, you know, that effort's also been denigrated here, [30:00] that we started going in there and actually doing something about it. Now you have Dr. Oz going in [30:04] again, I think partly because of Nick Shirley's revelation that a third of the hospice centers [30:10] were in America were in Los Angeles County. So the way we prevent the fraud is we stopped funding 400 [30:19] of them and not one of those hospice centers complained. So it's the tip of the iceberg. Mr. Shirley, [30:26] again, I commend you on your phenomenal journalism. You know, quite honestly, when I saw that happen, [30:32] I go, why didn't I think of that? You know, why didn't my staff do those videos? Journalism is crucial [30:38] to this. You're a partner in what we need to do. And it's only because of those videos that expose it [30:46] that we have any chance of trying to rein in this beast. But you mentioned the Stop Nick Shirley Act. [30:55] What is that? I mean, can you describe that in greater detail? [30:59] Yeah, so that's a bill that's been created by Mia Bonta, the wife of the Attorney General of California. [31:06] And the official title is AB 2624. And it's to provide, make it essentially illegal to expose [31:14] and to film outside of immigration support service providers. That means any entity that provides [31:20] services to illegal migrants, whether that be health care or legal fees. If I were to go out and film [31:25] a video in front of one of these locations, perhaps an NGO like CHURLA that's received over 80 million [31:32] dollars from the government, and they gave me a piece of paper, and they say, hey, you cannot publish [31:36] that video. If that bill passes, it'll be illegal for me to document that. [31:41] So it really ought to be renamed the Protect Medicating Fraudster Act. [31:46] This would probably be a better description of that, correct? [31:49] Correct. [31:52] Why do you think you have such pushback from our colleagues on the other side of the aisle? From, [31:59] you know, just the denigration here from the ranking member, from Governor Newsom? Why is that? [32:05] You would think that trying to eliminate waste, fraud, and abuse would be a completely nonpartisan issue? [32:10] Because they quite frankly need the fraud. They actually need the fraud. [32:14] You know, Mr. O'Keefe, I've got a lot more questions, but I'm not understanding. What were [32:21] these petitions about? They were paying money for signatures on petitions, generally pushed [32:30] forward by non-governmental organizations, which, by the way, we don't track how much money [32:35] is expended. Of the seven and a half trillion dollars we spend this year, we have no idea how much [32:38] funnels eventually through NGOs. So you have paying dollars for signing petitions, and then you also have [32:45] paying dollars for voter registration. Have you kind of followed that through? What's that all about? [32:50] Yes, Senator. One is a California state crime to fraudulently sign in someone else's name to get [32:57] something on the California ballot initiative, and the other is a federal crime, or this federal [33:02] jurisdiction where you pay someone in order to get them to register to vote. So again, these were [33:06] petitions to get something, a referendum on the ballot in California? That's correct. [33:10] So what didn't make sense to me about the registrations is they were signing up fake names or fake [33:14] addresses. I would think, you know, how if you're going to really commit election fraud, you'd sign [33:19] up legitimate names, legitimate addresses, so that you could basically harvest those ballots and vote [33:25] for who you want to vote. I mean, have you kind of followed that whole? Yes. In one instance, we looked [33:30] over the shoulder and a petitioner logged into a website, something called sigvalid.com, and accessed [33:36] currently registered voters using their real names and real addresses. We were unable to determine or [33:43] ascertain what this sigvalid.com is, but we believe that your committee has subpoena power to try to [33:49] find out what that is. Well, that'd be my offer. Both Chairman Paul and myself have subpoena power. [33:54] If you need it, we're more than happy to use it. So I'm making that offer to both Mr. Shirley and to you, [34:00] Mr. O'Keefe. We'll follow up with you. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Peters. Mr. [34:09] Gaudet. As you know, President Trump fired 19 inspectors general, the independent watchdogs [34:17] tasked by Congress with fighting waste, fraud and abuse in government programs. On May 21, 2025, [34:24] I issued a report that revealed that in fiscal year 24 alone, those fired IGs had collectively identified [34:33] over $50 billion of government savings through their work. Since then, President Trump has fired [34:40] additional IGs and has cut funding and staff to the oversight agencies, some by more than a third. [34:47] So my question for you, sir, is do partisan attacks on independent oversight benefit fraudsters? [34:55] Yes, I would say they absolutely benefit protesters. They politicized the entire endeavor of going after [35:01] waste, fraud and abuse, which is literally the mission statement and reason for existence of [35:05] watchdogs like inspector general. So how can Congress better support and defend independent [35:10] and nonpartisan oversight of government programs in your mind, in your estimation? Sure. So I, [35:15] I touched on this a little bit in my opening statement and in more detail in my written statement, [35:19] but there are a number of preexisting entities such as inspector general, such as the government [35:25] accountability office, who we don't need to reinvent the wheel there. We just need to strengthen, [35:29] empower and protect those entities. We need to give them the resources they need to conduct [35:34] their important work of oversight. And most importantly, we need to provide more political [35:38] insulation and independence so that they can do that work without fear or favor and without being overly [35:44] meddled with by people with partisan and political agendas, because that's anathema to any effective [35:48] oversight. All right. Mr. Hiller-Gaudet, Pogo has raised concerns about both President Biden [35:55] and President Trump's use of presidential pardons. This administration has claimed to care about fraud, [36:04] and yet President Trump has pardoned a staggering number of convicted fraudsters. To date, [36:11] he has pardoned over two dozen criminals who committed a combined [36:16] nearly five or $3 billion in financial crimes and fraud. These pardons also robbed victims of approximately [36:24] $1.3 billion in restitution payments. They were given to people like Lawrence Duran, who committed [36:31] $205 million in Medicare fraud and Trevor Milton, who committed $680 million in securities fraud. [36:41] Mr. Milton and his wife, not surprisingly, donated $2.5 million to the presidential campaign. [36:47] So my question for you, sir, is how would you describe pardoning criminal fraudster campaign [36:53] donors as an effort to combat fraud? I would describe it as a completely nonsensical approach [37:01] to rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse. And again, it undermines any claims one might have to caring [37:05] about waste, fraud, and abuse to pardon convicted fraudsters. And in the case of one Florida woman, [37:11] a multiply convicted fraudster who was convicted once, got a commutation in Trump's first term, [37:17] and then was convicted again and got a full pardon in the second term. So that does not seem to me [37:21] like the action of a of an entity that actually cares about fraud. Perhaps it's just fraud when [37:26] it's perpetrated by the right people or the wrong people. So what do you think Congress should do to [37:30] rein in the misuse of presidential pardon power? This is a tricky one. The pardon power is, of course, [37:38] constitutionally prescribed. It's pretty stark. I have a personal hobby horse view that a constitutional [37:46] amendment to remove the pardon power should probably be considered, because it's a vestigial legacy of [37:51] a sort of monarchical view of the head of state, which is kind of the whole thing we're supposed to [37:55] be against here in the United States. We don't like kings, and so the pardon power is very much a kingly, [37:59] a divine right of kings sort of concept. But barring that, I think there are some sort of common sense, [38:05] constitutionally viable approaches to more transparencies, consultation, reporting and [38:11] disclosure, and a bit of a kind of stronger process from within the DOJ's pardon office. [38:17] Thank you. You know, I've been proud to enact bipartisan legislation to improve government data [38:23] analytics, enhance oversight capabilities, and prevent payments to dead people. However, [38:30] challenges remain, especially as fraudsters have become more sophisticated and government systems and [38:35] tools have quite frankly just not kept pace. In fiscal year 25, government agencies estimated that [38:40] $186 billion of improper payments were made. So my question for you, Mr. Heller-Gadette, is what [38:48] what practical solutions should Congress prioritize to prevent improper payments and stop fraudulent [38:54] behavior while still protecting critical programs that Americans rely on every day? Thank you. [39:02] Verification is really important. I believe Chairman Paul referred to this in his opening statement. [39:07] We do not do enough of that. But also end-to-end transparency, reporting and disclosure, [39:12] at every step along the spending and funding chain is critically important. We also don't do much of [39:17] that. So, you know, I don't need to tell you all this there in Congress, but the appropriations process is [39:22] you all doing your thing with the money. It goes to federal agencies, then federal agencies award it out [39:27] to prime recipients. But then those prime recipients tend to parcel it out and award it out to a whole range [39:31] of different sub-awardees and sub-recipients. That's where we really lose any meaningful insight into where [39:36] the money is going, who's ending up with it, what is the impact that it's having. So if there's one sort of [39:42] key sort of close to a silver bullet I would recommend is getting our hands around sub-award [39:46] reporting and transparency all the way up and down the chain from end-to-end. Thank you. [39:51] I think that hits on the point is the payments all coming from the federal government, but the people [39:56] being signing them up are not connected to the payment. So they're in the states, they're local, [40:01] they want to help people. I want more people. Let's help more people. And they add all the people to it, [40:05] but they're not paying for it. You have to have the same people paying for it that are signing the people up. [40:10] And until you connect those two people, you'll continue to have this problem. Senator Langford. [40:15] Senator Langford, thanks for holding this hearing as well. To all of you and the work that you do to [40:19] help identify fraud and waste, thank you for the work on that. It's really about sunshine and trying to [40:25] expose this out. For nine years, I've been releasing what my team calls federal fumbles, where we just [40:30] outline where areas that we see on waste and abuse and loss of federal dollars over regulation. And we [40:38] throw those out there. What's been interesting is we've seen the same thing you have. When we identify [40:42] the areas of waste, people shrink back away from it and say, okay, now we're going to try to be able [40:47] to deal with this. It is the sunshine that really does make a difference. And what you're doing is bringing [40:52] things to light on this. We've identified things like in 2023, the State Department was funding drag [40:58] shows in Ecuador. The NIH or NEA, I should say, was doing a social media game to increase physical activity [41:06] in older women in creating a social media activity, which is inherently sit there for that. We had there [41:12] was a NEA created a production of what they call the fat pig, which was an opera to tell the story of a plus size [41:19] woman who falls in love with a man who has, quote unquote, a normal body. We also did an NIH study [41:26] in that gave a research grant to be able to outline the history of tobacco use in Russia. [41:33] We can go on and on and on through this. There's multiples that are out there. The Biden administration [41:38] did a $250 million study in NIH to be able to study how to transition mice and monkeys into a different [41:46] sex and how to create transgender mice and monkeys. All of those, once we exposed them, went away. [41:54] All of them. So the challenge is trying to be able to highlight it, but also to be able to find it in [41:59] advance. So I want to run several questions past you and I've got several big issues. But surely how are [42:05] you identifying initially what you're actually finding? Like what's the tip that you're saying, [42:10] I think there may be fraud there. How are you identifying that? [42:13] Yeah, a lot of the time I go and go through these databases and look for the largest amount [42:19] of funding and then also looking for the anomalies that come. For instance, in New York City at these [42:23] adult daycares, there were 7,899 patients enrolled into a daycare, an adult daycare, and they received [42:30] $12.9 million. And I go to that daycare, there's only one floor and it'd be quite frankly impossible to [42:37] enroll that many patients into that daycare. [42:39] Yeah. So it's just going through the available public data on it. [42:44] Yes. And then also relying upon Americans. For instance, I had learned about the Minnesota fraud [42:48] from Minnesotans. I went there and they told me, hey, finally, you're here to make a video on the [42:51] front. I said, well, what are you talking about? And they said, well, this fraud's happening. This [42:55] fraud's happening. And so for the past, then after that for six months, I looked for that information [42:59] about the fraud. [43:00] That's great. All right. That's very helpful in this. Uh, I have a question. It's a follow-up [43:06] question on this. I'm a big advocate for GAO and for Inspector General. Um, you and I've talked [43:11] about that before. That they're incredibly important to us. Uh, they are the investigators [43:16] that Congress has hired basically to be able to put in these different agencies and be able to [43:19] oversight. The problem is they have the same access to data that Mr. Shirley has. [43:25] When we get reports back from them, they're written very general many times and there's not [43:30] specifics and we're not really able to highlight this kind of information, getting the practical [43:34] information out. So the problem is not GAO and the Inspector General. It's getting the data and the [43:39] information from them in the rawest form. They could have done this same thing that Mr. Shirley did, but [43:43] they didn't. What would you suggest to help push good folks there to be able to take the next step and [43:49] expose what's out there? Thank you, Senator Langford. And if I might just for one moment, I just want to [43:55] expand my appreciation to you for your work for years starting in the House on the Taxpayer's Right [43:59] to Know Act, which, uh, you know this well, of course, but I don't know if everyone in this room does, [44:03] but it would, it created for the first time of federal program inventory, which is seemed kind [44:08] of counterintuitive that such a thing didn't exist for a long time, but thanks to your work on that [44:13] bill, uh, it now does exist. So I commend you for your longstanding commitment to transparency and [44:19] oversight when it comes to federal programs. Appreciate that. Uh, in response to your question, um, [44:25] I agree with you that sometimes GAO reports, I mean, I love a good GAO report, but they are often [44:30] kind of at a higher level of abstraction. Uh, they're still extremely valuable, I think, but I think [44:34] sometimes GAO can get a little bit, um, tentative, uh, if it gets too specific. [44:43] I describe them as safe. They're trying to write a safe report on a bad issue of fraud and I don't need [44:48] safe. I need raw information. That's what Mr. Shirley is actually bringing and saying, here's the raw [44:52] information. Yeah, I'd be happy to see that too. And I think, um, you know, I think creating more [44:57] independence, as I mentioned earlier for GAO could help with that problem because they would feel [45:00] less, less insecure and less scared of potentially, uh, you know, upsetting some particular constituency [45:06] who may in fact have control over their budget, right? So part of this is, uh, you really want [45:10] watchdogs to be as much as possible within the bounds of like constitutional allowability. [45:14] You want them to be as independent as possible so that they can do their work without fear or [45:18] favor. Okay, that's helpful. Uh, Mr. Keith, I'm just gonna make a comment to you. Thank you for the [45:22] work that you're doing on trying to be able to expose issues in our election security. In Oklahoma, [45:27] we have a very secure election system and we work very hard on that verifying. We've got voter ID. [45:32] If you're gonna do mail-in balloting, you have to have a notary to be able to verify that's actually you. [45:36] We go through a lot of steps to be able to make sure we secure our election. I wish that was so in every [45:41] state, but it is incredibly important for the trust that we actually have that. So I just want to tell you, [45:46] I appreciate the work that you're doing. I look forward to getting a chance to read more of what [45:48] you're doing. Thank you. Senator Scott. Uh, Chairman, [45:53] Chairman, wouldn't a Democrat go next since the Republican just testified? If there were a Democrat [45:57] here, yes. So there's no Democrats present at a hearing about fraud. There doesn't appear to be a [46:03] great deal of interest across the aisle. Senator Scott. Thank you, Senator Moreno. Um, it's hard to [46:09] believe in. First off, thank you all for, um, for caring about election security. Um, so Mr. O'Keefe, [46:17] your team returned to Skid Row after the DOG indicted, indicted somebody for, uh, election fraud [46:22] and found the same operation running openly, uh, cash for signatures, fake voter data and coaching on [46:27] forgery. So walk us through what you documented and what it tells you about whether the indictment [46:32] deterred anybody, how widespread is the model beyond Skid Row in Los Angeles. Based on your investigation, [46:39] do you think this model could easily be replicated in other states and, uh, cities around the country? [46:44] Thank you, Senator. Yeah, within seconds of appearing on Skid Row, I personally, disguised as a homeless [46:50] person, caught this behavior happening in broad daylight. So it's happening thousands of times. [46:55] And I wanted to mention the names of these organizations, these petitioners that [46:59] gather signatures to put on these initiatives in California. Urban signers is one. One more petition [47:05] is another. So, so Brenda Brown was indicted by the Department of Justice. But the question remains, [47:10] who's on the top orchestrating all of this? That's something we intend to find out. And, uh, I will [47:16] be submitting to Senator Ron Johnson a request for subpoena to, to gather more information about that. [47:21] And also these, these people are logging in to an online database called sigvalid.com and pulling real [47:29] names and voters. Those people's votes are disenfranchised. We went to their homes and we knocked on the door [47:36] of them. And one of them said, what if I wanted to vote in this election? So this is a completely [47:41] nonpartisan, nonpolitical issue. Mayor Karen Bass, the LADA and the governor of California did not [47:47] criticize me. They actually put statements out saying this is outrageous and needs to be exposed. [47:53] So, so what's happened? The Department of Justice is indicted, but none of the, [47:59] no people, nobody in the state of California has yet arrested or prosecuted these people. [48:03] And what's Gavin Newsom done? Put out a statement condemning the stuff that we exposed in the tape. [48:09] That's it. So doesn't he have investigation authority? He does in the state of California. [48:13] Doesn't Karen Bass? She does. And, and is it against the law? It is. It's a state crime, uh, [48:20] uh, fraudulently putting someone else's name on the California ballot petition. So in California, [48:26] they're, and they're, they're not going to prosecute this. If it wasn't for the federal government, [48:30] nothing would happen. I'm sorry? If it wasn't for the federal government, [48:32] nothing would happen. So far, uh, we have, we have to put tremendous pressure [48:37] and find a way to incentivize these elected officials to do the right thing. [48:43] So they also done, have they also impacted ballot initiatives in California, uh, with, uh, [48:49] invalid signatures? Yes. These signatures are regarding California state elections. [48:54] Okay. And these NGOs, can you find out, can you find out where they're getting the money? [48:59] Uh, we did. State money, federal money, county money? Yes. We did, uh, covertly interview some of [49:04] the NGOs across the street. Wine Guard is one. They received hundreds of millions of dollars in, [49:10] of, of funding. And these NGOs are located literally across the street from the fraud that is happening. [49:17] I testified that one man who represented himself, who was an NGO, pretended to be a police officer [49:24] to intimidate my news organization from reporting on this abuse. That is also a state crime. So the NGOs [49:31] see it happening and in our story actually encouraged it. They said, here's where you can do the cash for [49:37] ballots. And those NGOs receive billions of dollars of federal funding. Why? So why are they getting, [49:45] what are they getting the money for? What's it? What's under what premise do they get money? [49:49] It's the, uh, California homeless industrial complex. They're, they're there to help protect [49:55] and advance the mission of supporting the homeless population. But our reporting showed that the [50:00] homeless here are actually the victims. We interviewed a lot of the homeless and, and they were testifying [50:06] to me that they were being taken advantage of. And all it takes is a few cigarettes, some marijuana, [50:11] a few dollars, which doesn't sound like a lot to you and I, but it helps them buy a cheeseburger. [50:16] So they're the victims and that's what they told us. Did you follow the Spencer Pratt race? I did. [50:23] Would, were you surprised that he went from being the runner up to being out of the race? I was, I, [50:31] all I can do on all I can think about is tracing who's behind this fraud at the top. That's my interest [50:39] and that's my priority is because all the stuff you see out there is all circumstantial evidence. [50:45] But what the U.S. Attorney told me is the fact that we caught the cash exchange on camera, it led to an [50:51] indictment. So I want to know who's orchestrating it at the top and I intend to find out. Do you think [50:57] the, uh, the U.S. Attorney will go after the, the NGO? He did what he told me he said he was going to do, [51:03] but we need non-circumstantial evidence. We need direct cash payments on tape, incontrovertible evidence [51:10] for the Department of Justice to do their job. That's, I feel like that's my role. I feel citizen [51:15] journalists don't have to deal with bureaucracy. We could just go there and get the story in a day [51:20] and that's what we intend to do. All right, thanks for what you're doing. Senator Moreno. [51:27] Uh, thank you Mr. Chairman for, for holding this hearing and, uh, let me just point out again for the [51:32] record that I think preventing fraud in government should be completely non-partisan. It's not a Democrat [51:40] issue or Republican issue. Yet, uh, the entire, almost the entirety of the Republican Dias is filled [51:46] with people sitting here listening to the entire hearing and literally the entire Democrat Dias [51:51] is empty. I think that's quite frankly a disgrace. I think it's a disgrace to the people who pay taxes [51:57] to know that there's a entire party that does not care whether taxpayer money is burnt. I think it's [52:05] absolutely completely outrageous. Mr. Shirley, I'll start with you. The previous [52:10] Controller General of the GAO had been in office since 2011. What were you doing in 2011? [52:20] Playing football and basketball. And what grade were you in? Uh, that time I was nine years old. Nine? [52:27] Gotcha. So you were nine years old and this person served for 15 years in government. Uh, and, and, uh, [52:34] we have a, this idea that maybe we double down on that process that failed for 15 years, [52:40] that somehow would be better off. And yet you went in at your risk and exposed fraud. How does, [52:48] I'm going to take a different angle. How does it make you feel as somebody who's 25 years old [52:54] to know that your generation is going to pay the bill for everything that's happened right now? We have [52:59] 40 trillion dollars in debt. Yeah. And yet your generation is going to pay the price. Yeah, I think [53:05] that's the sad thing is my generation is the one who's affected the most from this fraud and from [53:10] the national debt. It's extremely hard for anyone my age to buy a home, even just be able to accumulate [53:16] the money to have a down payment inside your bank account. It's very, very hard. And so when you see [53:20] a fraudster who literally opens up a leering center and they received 1.9 million dollars and that was [53:26] going on for years and no one ever did anything. We had all this oversight. We had all, like, everyone knew [53:31] about the fraud but everyone was too afraid to talk about the fraud because, uh, of what would happen [53:35] to them. And what do you mean what would happen to them? Is it, is it, uh, is it impolite that's to say [53:41] that somebody's fraud, uh, defrauding the government if, because there's of some certain race or gender [53:48] or national origin? Is that somehow racist to say you should not steal money from the federal government? [53:54] It's not racist but, uh, politically it can be seen as racist. Uh, they may label you as Islamophobic or, uh, [54:02] uh, racist quite frankly. Well, I think profiles and courage wouldn't be something that would be [54:06] written about the current members of the Democrat party for sure. And because again, you think you, [54:12] you would agree that they're just afraid of being labeled that way and that fear drives them away [54:16] from even attending a hearing like today? Yeah, definitely. And, uh, it's very sad to see that they put [54:24] that, that, that, that's, that's their priorities is to make sure that they're not labeled as a racist or [54:28] Islamophobic for exposing fraud or for exposing what's happening inside a community. Quite frankly, [54:33] they use the Somali population to commit the fraud. Ilhan Omar should be disgraced of what she did to [54:37] the Somali population. And, and when you look at, uh, uh, people in your generation can't afford a car, [54:43] can't afford a house, don't see how in the future you'd be able to retire with any kind of dignity, [54:48] and yet somebody can break into our country illegally, be provided a luxury hotel room in New York, [54:53] three meals a day, maid service once a week, free education, free health care. Uh, what, what goes through [55:00] your head when you think about that? Like, how does this happen? We're putting foreigners oftentimes [55:04] above American citizens, and it's very, very sad to see. And, um, Mr. Uh, Heather Gaudet, uh, I, I want [55:11] to drill back down to the numbers you provided because I want to make sure I heard him correctly. You, [55:15] you talked about, uh, again, we're here to talk about fraud. Uh, we can talk about waste in a different [55:21] hearing. We're here to talk about fraud. You mentioned in 2025, what was the number that you said? [55:25] You knew the numbers off the top of your head pretty well. It's impressive. Uh, GAO estimated [55:28] that in fiscal year 2025, we issued $186 billion in improper payments. So $186 billion in 2025. [55:37] From 17 to 20, which is President Trump's first term, that number by GAO is estimated to be 672 [55:43] billion. Does that sound right? I don't have that number off the top of my head, but, uh, [55:48] Sounds right. Yeah, generally. You get GAO, citing their numbers. And from 2020 to 2024, [55:54] that number under Biden was $925 billion. So I would point out 2020 is still the Trump [56:00] administration. No, no, this is this is fiscal year. So this would start October 1st. [56:04] Yeah, so so nine. So it was a 38% increase and it's been massively cut back by President Trump [56:11] in the second term. Uh, I don't know that that's the greatest case to be made that the entire issue is [56:17] because we have these inspector generals that have failed dramatically since the time Nick Shirley was [56:22] playing basketball in his driveway when he was nine years old. I think what we need to do here, [56:27] Mr. Chairman, is take this topic very seriously. I think the American people are sick and tired of [56:31] hearings. Honestly, I think they need to see people who are held accountable, uh, that go to jail. [56:36] And until we do that, I don't know that we have the confidence of people. I feel badly for next [56:40] generation. Honestly, I don't know how they look at it and say this government is just failing us. [56:46] And the sense of disenfranchisement with the American government. I mean, [56:51] I just can't wrap my head around the fact that Democrats care so little about this topic that [56:56] they don't even show up. They didn't show up at your session either, Senator Johnson, [57:01] when we talked about this exact topic in your committee. And ultimately, if your elected leaders [57:07] don't give a crap about how government spends money, it's an indictment on that. And even worse, [57:14] the media just won't even talk about it. There will be more stories on CNN tonight about the [57:19] reflecting pond being empty than the fact that you had a hearing today about trillions of dollars [57:26] of fraud. And that is the problem. The media is complicit. The Democrats are complicit because that's [57:32] ultimately, you have to think, what keeps them in power. So with that, thank you, Mr. Chairman. [57:38] Senator Ernst. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman, [57:41] for holding this important hearing. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here today as well, [57:48] because a lot of you are deciding to go face to face with a lot of the fraudsters that are [57:53] ripping off our taxpayers. And you're exposing the corruption that the typical mainstream media [58:01] and our federal government and state governments have been ignoring, and in some cases actually [58:08] enabling. So I've learned the hard way through many, many years of working on fraud, waste and abuse [58:15] within the federal government that this type of work doesn't earn you a lot of friends. So because of [58:21] the work that all of you are doing, I just want to say thank you so much on behalf of all of my Iowans [58:27] and all of our taxpayers across the country. Americans are sending their tax dollars to Washington. [58:33] You know what? They deserve to know how those taxpayer dollars are being spent, [58:39] and they need to know that the money that they have worked really hard for is being safeguarded [58:44] and responsibly spent. And I found this really shocking in a lot of the work that I've done [58:49] that every single day, every single day, we are losing as a federal government 1.4 billion dollars [58:59] to fraud. That's not a week. That's not a month. That's every single day, 1.4. And that's just a [59:05] fraud. That doesn't include all of the waste and abuse that we have in the federal government. That's [59:11] a lot of money that has gone missing without anybody noticing, or in some cases even caring. So I've [59:20] always said it, but if you can't find waste fraud or abuse in Washington, it's simply because you're not [59:25] looking. You're not looking. So our witnesses have taken a hard look at this issue. I appreciate it. [59:34] You have given Americans an opportunity to see what is happening with their own eyes. And because of [59:40] that, the content has gone viral. So Nick, we all know this. We've all seen this. So for the folks that [59:52] are out there watching, YouTube journalist Nick Shirley's visit to the Quality Leering Center helped [59:59] all of us leer how easy it is to get away with fraud in Minnesota. The Leering Center was given 10 [1:00:06] million dollars of taxpayer money to provide child care. Yet Mr. Shirley's footage showed that there were [1:00:13] not even any children present. Despite what we were able to see with our own eyes, Minnesota officials [1:00:20] insisted that the Leering Center and other questionable child care centers exposed by Nick Shirley were [1:00:26] quote, operating as expected. And folks, that is exactly the problem. It's the grift that keeps on giving. [1:00:37] Mr. Shirley, two whistleblower whistleblowers who are career civil servants with the Minnesota state [1:00:46] government testified before a committee that I chair that they reported suspected fraud, including [1:00:54] with these child care centers years before you made it a national story. And I want everyone to recognize [1:01:02] this is not a Democrat Republican problem because one of those witnesses is a Democrat. She is a lifelong [1:01:10] Democrat and she was a whistleblower because why? Because some of the programs she was exposing for fraud, [1:01:18] her family had relied upon when she was a child and she recognized that the dollars that were committed to [1:01:27] some of these programs with good intent were not going to the families that truly needed those taxpayer dollars. [1:01:36] So those two whistleblowers, guess what happened? They were retaliated against because they brought [1:01:45] the issue to light. And likewise, you are called a quote, delusional conspiracy theorist, end quote, [1:01:56] by Minnesota Governor Walz and accused of quote, grandstanding by the state's attorney general. And similarly, [1:02:05] when you expose Medicare hospice fraud in California, Governor Newsom's office responded by tweeting, quote, [1:02:12] surely is the fraud. So, Mr. Shirley, why do you think politicians are trying to stop people like you [1:02:23] who are exposing corruption rather than those who are actually committing the fraud? [1:02:31] First off, it's very sad that two governors of the United States would even post that about somebody who's [1:02:35] exposing fraud. All I've done is try to help America and I've done it. They quite frankly aren't. [1:02:41] That's why they're so angry about it because they actually rely upon the fraud in order to continue [1:02:45] to push their agendas inside their states. That's why they get so mad when the fraud gets exposed [1:02:50] because that money oftentimes goes back into the hands of not necessarily the politicians but what fuels [1:02:56] those politicians to be able to do what they want to do inside their state. [1:02:59] Right. And it's a sad state of affairs. But what we see every day, Washington is losing [1:03:07] up to $521 billion to fraud every year. The offices of Inspector General have a combined yearly budget of [1:03:15] nearly $4 billion. Similarly, GAO has an annual budget of more than $800 million. And I share that [1:03:25] because they have hundreds of investigators and auditors at their disposal. Do you have billions of dollars [1:03:33] at your disposal and endless resources to enable you to uncover fraud? No, not at all. In fact, I have to [1:03:40] spend tens of thousands of dollars just to stay safe now because of posts just like that from governors [1:03:45] of the United States of America. Exactly. And so with very little resources, you have been able to uncover [1:03:52] fraud. And yet our federal government doesn't seem to be able to track it down. So I know I'm out of time. [1:04:00] I've gone over. But it doesn't take millions and billions of dollars to expose fraud. We have to [1:04:08] do a better job. I do have a bill, a package that I have proposed. Senator Thune has charged me with doing [1:04:17] this. A number of people, including the chair, have bills, anti-fraud bills that have been included [1:04:24] in this anti-fraud package. We are hoping to be able to move it on the floor of the Senate very soon. [1:04:31] And it really is a common sense move to doing the right thing for our taxpayers. So I really appreciate [1:04:40] it. Senator Paul, thank you so much, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing. We need to take care of [1:04:47] this issue. It's the right thing to do. Thank you. I yield back. Senator Moody. [1:04:52] Mr. Chairman, I think this is one of the most important hearings that we have had since I've [1:04:57] become I'm one of the newest United States senators, which just proves that the least senior people can [1:05:03] actually move and be the loudest. This is one of the most important things that we could be doing [1:05:08] right now as a Congress. And it comes right to me, another Republican, because there's not another [1:05:13] Democrat here to question any of you who represent a wide swath of the political spectrum, I imagine, [1:05:20] on what is happening right now in our country. And I appreciate my colleague, Senator Ernst. We are going [1:05:26] to miss her immensely in her fight against fraud and waste in this country. I am going to miss her [1:05:33] immensely. As many of you know, she is retiring from the Senate. But I thank her for putting up these [1:05:39] tweets as a reminder. And actually, you spoke about this. I love that you are, by the way, 24 years old. [1:05:47] And you took something you started, I want to say as young as 16 or something, disrupting [1:05:54] things. And man, does this bureaucracy and I would say cover up need disrupting. And boy, does it take [1:06:04] somebody like you that is fine with that, because you're driven by passion for protecting your generation, [1:06:11] because you're coming after all of us and will feel this immensely in the debt that you inherit. [1:06:17] And I am so grateful to you for showing up here and showing that age, no matter your age, no matter [1:06:22] where you're from, Americans should demand that their government is accountable to them and are good [1:06:26] stewards of their money. And boy, am I so impressed by you. And I hope that your family is as well. [1:06:32] But I'm so glad that we have these because I want to, I just want to point out, and this is nothing [1:06:36] that I prepared for. But Tim Walts, governor of Minnesota, do you remember when he wanted to be [1:06:41] our vice president, was bragging that all of these types of new small businesses were reasons why he [1:06:46] should be trusted with leading? And now we're determining what all these small businesses like the Leering [1:06:52] Center were. He used this as a reason that he gave the American people of why he should leave. [1:06:58] So why are we surprised that immediately he's defensive and comes after a young kid that's [1:07:04] trying to point out on behalf of his generation where this money is really going and this fraud? [1:07:09] And look at what the leader of California said. Did he really say in response to you uncovering [1:07:18] just astronomical fraud and waste that, and I want to quote this because I am appalled by it, [1:07:25] did he really say slow surely is the fraud? [1:07:30] Yes, he did. [1:07:33] I didn't misread that? That wasn't misprinted? [1:07:35] No. [1:07:36] So, somebody that wants to be the leader of the Democratic Party and show his great, [1:07:42] I guess character, is demeaning you and calling you names and ridiculing you? Really? [1:07:53] Yes, that is Gavin Newsom. [1:07:56] I would suggest that anyone could see what this is. This is, oh my goodness, [1:08:01] we just got caught. Let's throw out a bunch of blood in the water, go after other people, [1:08:08] make sure people blame it on somebody else, but don't pay attention to us. What is that, like ink? [1:08:14] Yes, and actually Gavin Newsom just yesterday, he's giving now $20 million to a local journalist. [1:08:20] Uh, they're going to be able to get grants up to $250,000 to do journalism inside of California. [1:08:25] He's essentially paying for good press with our tax dollars as well. [1:08:28] I have to also commend my other colleague, Mr. Johnson, who was saying, you know, [1:08:33] in California, instead of the Stop Nick Shirley Act, they should call it Protect Fraudsters Act. [1:08:41] I mean, truly, this should be a wake-up call to everyone in America [1:08:46] that the people that the Dems want to put in charge of their parties and in charge of their [1:08:52] government, as soon as something is brought to their attention in a good faith way, their response [1:08:59] is not to say, let's roll up our sleeves and dig in. The response is to say, nothing to see here. [1:09:05] The person that bringing up is, let me make sure I have this, slow and a fraud himself. And let's [1:09:13] propose legislation, not only so that we can keep covering it up, but that we can go after them. [1:09:22] Yes. And, uh, I wanted this to be on the record. Never once has a Democrat politician ever [1:09:27] congratulated me or said, thank you for exposing this, or even reached out to say, hey, maybe come [1:09:32] check out what's happening inside of our state. They are quite frankly complicit in the fraud, [1:09:36] and that's why none of them are here today. Like, what is this? [1:09:38] Complicit, trying to cover up something, aiding and abetting. [1:09:43] One hundred percent. [1:09:46] Promoting their own political careers over tax-paying, hard-working Americans. [1:09:51] I thank you. I, you know, there is an entire fraud economy. I, I think President Trump and his [1:10:00] administration that is uncovering this. It's positive news that they're uncovering more and more of it, [1:10:05] but it is sad that we are seeing so much of it. When I came to Washington, I was like, I, we need to take a [1:10:11] machete to all of the bureaucracy, all of the, this has always been, there's always, every time I bring [1:10:19] up a problem, the Dem response is, we've always had fraud, or we've always had coercion of individuals, [1:10:25] or we've always had this, but they never once say, let's do something about it. So I would, I would [1:10:30] actually ask my colleagues, I have proposed in response to this. If we want to do something about [1:10:35] it, if we want to be aggressive, we need to start proposing solutions. I thank my colleague, [1:10:40] Senator Ernst. I've also proposed the Stop Child Care Scams Act, the Stop Fraud in Medicaid Act, [1:10:46] the No Aid for Ghost Students Act, Punishing Healthcare Fraudsters Act. This is just a few [1:10:51] that we are working on with my colleague, Senator Schmidt. We have launched a Senate task force [1:10:56] against fraud. And I know they don't like to talk about fraud. They get really itchy when we talk about [1:11:02] any kind of fraud, especially election fraud, especially election fraud. And instead of saying, [1:11:10] okay, let's explore what people are saying, or trying to discredit them, [1:11:14] or picking someone that knows nothing about it, when they come into hearing and saying, [1:11:18] did President Trump win the election? The person would have no way of knowing and making them say [1:11:23] that. And CC, they said that. Instead of actually exploring fraud and doing something about it, [1:11:28] I think we need to make sure that we don't just uncover, we don't just address it, we don't just ask what [1:11:33] we can do. But we bolster the American people's trust in our elections. And the way we do that is [1:11:39] to follow the Florida blueprint. We used to be a national embarrassment with the hanging chads, [1:11:44] getting ballot results after everybody went to sleep days later. Within just two decades, [1:11:48] we've turned that around. We have results by bedtime. People trust Florida elections. We can do that in [1:11:54] this nation, which is why I want to propose legislation that says ballots by election day, [1:12:01] ballots by election day. So people have faith in the results of their elections. Mr. O'Keefe, [1:12:08] and I'm over time, but is this something you think would bring better trust by Americans in our [1:12:15] elections if we could announce results by election day, ballots in by election days, excluding military, [1:12:19] of course? Senator, I do. Citizenship verification answers whether a person is eligible, but it does [1:12:26] not answer whether the applicant is that person. And that's what we saw in California. So federal [1:12:31] reform should require identity to be verified before a registration gets active. I think Congress [1:12:39] should look at that as well. Thank you. And thank you for being here today, all of you. We very much [1:12:42] appreciate it. Senator Holling. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thanks to the witnesses for being here. [1:12:47] Mr. Shirley, I just want to start with you. I, for my part, want to say thank you for the terrific work [1:12:52] you've done on exposing fraud all across the country, nowhere more so than in the state of Minnesota. [1:12:57] You know, it's a funny thing. Not long ago, the Attorney General of the state of Minnesota was sitting [1:13:02] right where you're sitting, Keith Ellison. And I had a question or two for him about the fraud in that [1:13:07] state. And he said to me that, oh, oh, I mean, it just, nobody could have found it. I mean, he didn't, [1:13:13] he didn't know anything about it. You know, he was completely in the dark until it was all [1:13:18] blown open. And there's just nothing that would have tipped him off. I find that interesting because [1:13:22] near as I can tell, I mean, you were a 24 year old independent journalist, [1:13:26] you had a camera and a list of public spending records, right? So how did, if this fraud was so [1:13:32] hard to find, how did you manage to find it when none of the public officials in Minnesota could find it? [1:13:38] I simply went to the locations of the leering centers and the daycares and asked to enroll [1:13:45] a child. And there was no way to enroll a child into any of these daycares. In fact, [1:13:49] there are no children to be seen anywhere. So in other words, you, you asked a few questions and [1:13:54] you looked, you actually looked to see if there was fraud. Yes. And you found it wide open, everywhere, [1:13:59] rampant. Everywhere. Everywhere. And all, a lot of the Medicaid programs inside of Minnesota, [1:14:05] from the non-emergent, non-emergent school, uh, vehicles to transportation companies. [1:14:11] You know, I find it so interesting because Keith Ellison, when he was attorney general, [1:14:15] way back in 2018, 2019, I think we've got a poster of this effect, was actually told and had multiple [1:14:22] referrals made to his office about fraud in some of the very programs that you looked at. I mean, [1:14:28] these are, this years ago now, he had official referrals made to him. He said, oh, I just couldn't [1:14:34] find any evidence of the fraud. Do you think maybe there's a little bit of corruption at the [1:14:38] governmental level in the state of Minnesota? I mean, is that just maybe a possibility? Maybe some [1:14:43] of these guys are maybe, maybe on the take, you think? I mean, possible? Yeah, it's not even maybe [1:14:48] or possibly, it's a certainty. Yeah, I would say so too. And, and I can prove it to you. Keith Ellison, [1:14:53] that guy, after overlooking $250 million in fraud, he took $10,000 in campaign contributions from the very [1:15:01] people who were committing the fraud, who came to see him in his office, asked him to please get [1:15:07] state investigators off of their backs, which he did, asked him to shut down the investigations, [1:15:13] which he helped with, offered to give him money, which he accepted. I mean, I think that's the answer [1:15:19] as to why can't any of these people find the fraud, because they're getting paid by the fraudsters. [1:15:24] And here you are, 24 years old, got a camera, got the public records, asked a few questions and it's [1:15:28] everywhere to be seen. I mean, this kind of corruption and it's what, sadly, the Democrat [1:15:34] Party wants to bring to this country all across America. I don't know why guys like Ellison are not [1:15:37] being prosecuted, I have to tell you. And he sat there and lied under oath, right where you're [1:15:41] sitting now. I asked him why he took this money. He said, oh, I didn't take a dime. He took $10,000. [1:15:46] It's on the record. I just want to commend you for what you've done. Mr. O'Keefe, I want to thank you for [1:15:51] being here as well. I want to thank you particularly for your investigation, so many of them, but [1:15:56] particularly those into anti-Christian bias. I want to ask you just about Trevor Williams, [1:16:02] the Washington Nationals. You found that Trevor Williams was shut down. He was muffled. He was [1:16:09] gagged by his own team because he had the audacity to say that he didn't think that this poster, [1:16:17] I think we got a picture of this, that this outrageous desecration of the Last Supper by this [1:16:23] group that calls itself the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which is an anti-Christian group that [1:16:29] actively mocks Catholics and other Christians. You know, he said he didn't like this. And for that [1:16:34] reason, if I remember correctly, the Washington Nationals tried to shut him down. Tell us just [1:16:39] about what your investigation found. This is involving the Washington Nationals baseball team [1:16:46] and civil rights violations and anti-Christian bias. And the Washington Nationals has fired this [1:16:52] vice president for his bias against Christians. And it's part of our expose, exposing officials [1:16:59] in corporations and in the administrative state, the deep state, breaking the law, pushing back. [1:17:06] We have another one coming out inside the Pentagon the next few days with similar themes. Well, [1:17:10] I look forward to that. Let me just say this. Were you surprised at all, given your investigation [1:17:15] of the Trevor Williams incident, were you surprised at all when the commissioner of baseball just a few [1:17:20] weeks ago threatened to penalize and fine players, two players on the Giants who put Bible verses [1:17:29] onto their, one on their cap, I think one on their jersey. The commissioner of baseball came out and [1:17:33] said, oh, that's against our rules. We're going to fine you. It was absolutely outrageous. Did that [1:17:38] surprise you, given the sort of systemic bias, if I could use that phrase that you found? [1:17:42] Well, nothing surprises me. There's a lot of irony and absurdity in reality, [1:17:46] but it does not shock me. And I think sunlight, to quote Brandeis, is the best disinfectant. So [1:17:52] they might do some things and open, but it's, I think it's possible to shame the devil by capturing [1:17:58] these candid remarks behind closed doors, where they really talk about their intent and their [1:18:02] motivation. And that caused, that video caused a firestorm. And, you know, to quote Nick Shirley, [1:18:08] the video does not film itself. The citizen journalists should get to show up and do the thing. And I think [1:18:13] it's more difficult for bureaucrats to do that. So citizen journalists are going to do it. [1:18:18] That's great. Well, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. And I think partly because of what [1:18:22] you exposed, the kind of bias you exposed in the Trevor Williams case, the commissioner of [1:18:26] Major League Baseball had to back down. Yes. When we confronted him on this issue and admit, [1:18:30] actually, the rules permit the players to write these things on their jerseys if they so choose. [1:18:35] They permit the players to forego wearing politically themed jerseys at all. And he committed to me in [1:18:40] writing that none of these players will ever be fined or disciplined for expressing their faith. [1:18:44] But you and I both know he wouldn't have done that had he not been embarrassed by the facts [1:18:49] that you and others brought forward. So thank you for your work. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:18:53] They say a picture's worth a thousand words. I think a video might be worth 10,000 words. [1:19:01] It's been said that, well, you know, these are sensationalistic, and this isn't the proper way to [1:19:06] do it, young man. And we shouldn't be doing this. And this is and leave this to the government. [1:19:11] But I think the point's also been made very clearly. The government has these inspector [1:19:15] generals as a GAO. I'm fan of both of those groups, but I don't know if they have any inspectors. [1:19:21] I mean, that actually go out on the road. Any video anybody's going and checking on this. [1:19:26] So I think what you've shown people is what can happen with pictures. I mean, with video [1:19:32] and the pictures made a big difference. As you said, there's a normal virality of the these videos. [1:19:38] But there have actually been indictments. I think at least 15 indictments, 90 million, 100 million. [1:19:43] I mean, an enormous amount of money now is as being recovered and been found to misspent. [1:19:49] I think that when we look at things, sometimes, though, we get lost in just the bad people. [1:19:55] And there are bad people and there always will be bad people. That's why we have to police things and [1:20:01] companies do it instantaneously. You know, visa, they're instantaneously catching fraud. [1:20:06] Your bank's catching fraud. Everybody is. And so we scratch our head and ask, why isn't government? [1:20:11] You know, why? Why didn't government have someone like Nick Shirley that worked for them? [1:20:15] Why weren't we doing this? And there's a systemic problem. And the systemic problems worth looking at [1:20:21] because systemic problems can fix thousands of downstream problems. The systemic problem is basically this. [1:20:28] You sign up for welfare at the state level. The payment comes from the federal level. [1:20:34] The states look at federal payment is free because we have a printing press up here. We just add it to [1:20:40] the we add it to the national debt, the $40 trillion debt, the numbers that are spiraling out of control. [1:20:46] But food stamps, Medicaid, you sign up at the state level. [1:20:50] So if if if you tell a state that we're going to pay for 90 percent or 100 percent of Medicaid, [1:20:56] if you expand it, is there any incentive for them to check people's credentials to make sure they're [1:21:00] eligible for Medicaid or for food stamps? Is there any incentive to go like you did to the autism center? [1:21:07] No, because they're not paying for it. So the states have no incentive. [1:21:11] So one of the things Senator Johnson and I and several others wanted to get added to a bill last year [1:21:17] was trying to change some of these percentages. So ever since Obamacare, they they Obamacare enticed [1:21:23] all the states to expand Medicaid. And a lot of these programs come under the auspices of Medicaid. [1:21:29] The government paid 100 percent of it for like three years. And now 15 years later, the government's still [1:21:34] paying 90 percent. The rest of Medicaid's closer to 50 50 or 45 55. So the states have some skin in the [1:21:42] game. If they allow too much fraud to occur, they they're paying for part of the fraud. But if 90 [1:21:47] percent of it's paid for the federal government, you're not paying fraud. We had a proposal that [1:21:51] would have changed the formula back to this split formula where states pay about half and the federal [1:21:56] government pays half. And I think it was an 800 billion dollar savings over about 10 years. And so [1:22:03] we have to do the fraud. We have to police the fraud. We should be learning from what you guys are doing [1:22:08] with investigative reporting. We should hire investigators. If we like inspector generals, [1:22:13] why don't they have a team of investigators that are going out and doing what you're doing? [1:22:18] So we should do that. But we also have to as a legislature look at these ratios and at these split [1:22:25] performances and and you have to connect them. The people paying have to be doing the oversight. [1:22:31] Some of that's happening, but only because you've brought it to light without these videos [1:22:35] that some are calling sensationalistic. There'd be none of this. It just went on year after year, [1:22:41] decade after decade. And I think this is the tip of the iceberg. And I commend you for [1:22:46] what you both done with exposing this. As far as the subpoena power, I'm happy to work with Senator [1:22:52] Johnson on this. And I think we can look into particularly the harvesting. You know, [1:22:57] in Wisconsin, when they had the difficulty of the the the mass mail in ballots in 2020, [1:23:04] when probably what over half of your ballots were cast by mail, [1:23:08] there were said to be 100,000 that weren't even signed, you know, that there was no witness signature. [1:23:13] But we should be looking into the harvesting. If there is evidence that with harvesting, [1:23:18] people are harvesting ballots in an illegal or illegitimate way that should be looked into. [1:23:23] And so I'm happy to look at these companies and we are happy to work with both of you on any [1:23:29] information you have to bring to us. And I, for one, commend you for your work on this and what you [1:23:34] brought to our attention. I think Senator Johnson had another question or two. [1:23:39] I do. And you know, quite honestly, along the same lines that, you know, [1:23:41] Mr. Hitler got it. Aren't you as disappointed as I am? I've been doing this for now 16 years. [1:23:49] We've had Pogo come in. I've been supportive of IGs. I've been supportive of the GAO. [1:23:54] Just hasn't worked. I know in your testimony, you say that IGs have saved $71 billion. I mean, [1:24:00] it's probably self-reported, self-serving type of report. We still have 250 to a trillion [1:24:06] dollars to a trillion dollars of fraud occurring. It's just not working. And Senator Paulo is putting [1:24:15] his finger on the problem here. When it's free money, you don't care about it. I mean, [1:24:22] in his opening statement, he talked about what private sector companies do to prevent fraud on [1:24:26] the front end. That's what we have to do. So, again, I would really encourage Pogo to, you know, [1:24:32] rather than let's fund more IGs, let's put more money into GAO. I mean, again, I'm supportive of it, [1:24:37] if it would work, but it doesn't. And recognize that, so we're going to have to completely reform [1:24:45] how those bodies operate. But we've got to look at the root cause of these things. We have to align [1:24:53] the incentives. I mean, the 9 to 1 match is just, it's legalized fraud. In Medicaid, in provider fees, [1:25:00] provider taxes, that's not healthcare. I literally had a hospital lobby me when, you know, we passed the [1:25:07] big, beautiful bill that was going to restrain the percent of provider taxes. Wisconsin was pretty [1:25:15] low. I think we're at 1.8. Passed the bill right away to go to 6 percent. And apparently didn't do it [1:25:22] quickly enough, so Dr. Oz wasn't going to give us the waiver to allow us to increase the provider tax [1:25:27] up to 6 percent. So we had a hospital, you know, through an intermediary lobbying me to say, you know, [1:25:33] try and get Dr. Oz to grant us that waiver because this is what we'll be able to, we'll be able to [1:25:38] charge a 12 million dollar provider tax. We'll get reimbursed for 18 million, so we'll come up [1:25:45] 6 million dollars ahead. They're not even thinking, I mean, you literally are asking for government to [1:25:53] allow you to tax your customers 12 million dollars so you can make additional six. Again, it's legalized [1:25:59] fraud. So until we're, until we are willing to address the root cause of the problem, that all [1:26:06] this free federal federal government money is not being administered by the states properly, they [1:26:11] don't care. They don't care to check eligibility. They get credit for providing all this health care [1:26:16] for all their citizens. They don't care about the eligibility. They don't care that a third of the [1:26:21] hospice centers are in Los Angeles County, that when you defund 400 of them, none of them even [1:26:26] complain. They just don't care. So I guess that's my question to you. You know, it's Hattapogo, [1:26:32] which I think is a great organization, focus on the root cause, focus on the legalized fraud, [1:26:38] the way these programs are set up. You want to comment on that? Yes, please, if you wouldn't mind, [1:26:42] Senator. Thank you so much. One thing I just want to point out, and this has been brought up a couple [1:26:47] other times, but GAO, Inspector General, these oversight entities, they are at their core providers of [1:26:52] information. They have no power to change legislation or change policy. When they [1:26:57] expose things or when they tell you, here's how you can save X amount of dollars, they can't [1:27:01] actualize that savings. They can come to Congress and ask you all to do those things, but then it's [1:27:06] up to Congress. Congress is the body that can actually change the law, change policy. So I think [1:27:11] it's just like a little bit unfair to say the reason we still have fraud is because GAO and IG are not [1:27:16] I completely agree. GAO has all these reports, but they don't get implemented. Yeah. And they don't get [1:27:21] implemented because if you say you want to actually reduce the legalized fraud in Medicaid, we get [1:27:27] accused of slashing it. Do you realize Medicaid is up 10% year over year? We didn't cut Medicaid. We [1:27:33] didn't even begin to control it. Didn't even scratch the surface. That's my point here is we need to [1:27:41] understand how pervasive and how rampant this fraud is. We need to address the actual problem, how these [1:27:48] laws are written to be taken advantage of, to create fraud, to let the fraudsters get away. We didn't [1:27:53] talk about potentially the foreign organization of this, correct? I mean, 700 million dollars in cash [1:28:01] flowing out of the Minneapolis airport back to, you know, countries in Africa. Have either of you [1:28:08] gentlemen kind of investigated the foreign sourcing or an organization of a lot of this fraud? I mean, [1:28:13] we're opening up to foreign governments to fund their own operations. Well, yeah, it's been proven [1:28:18] that a lot of the money in suitcases that left Minnesota went back into the hands of people [1:28:22] inside Somalia. And for instance, in New York City, where I just did an expose exposing this adult [1:28:28] daycare fraud, nobody at these daycares actually knows who the owner is. A lot of them had just been [1:28:33] hired within the past month. In Miami, you have the Cuban government running these DME companies [1:28:40] that are fleecing and quite literally looting from Medicaid. A lot of foreign governments have infiltrated [1:28:45] our Medicaid because it's so simple and so easy to defraud. By the way, we know it's 700 million [1:28:50] dollars because government watched it go out. They let it go. They didn't even put the IRS on on the [1:28:57] case. You know, it's truly remarkable what we're allowing to happen here. So again, Mr. Chairman, [1:29:03] I commend you like Senator Ernstead for holding this hearing and, you know, Ashley Moody. This is an [1:29:08] incredibly important hearing and it speaks volumes. That only the ranking member showed up to, you know, [1:29:15] denigrate Mr. Shirley's efforts, quite honestly. That's why he showed up and not one of them are [1:29:20] here talking about these hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars worth of fraud that we we [1:29:27] can't allow to continue because we are mortgage your future. But thank you, Mr. Chairman. The autism [1:29:31] centers that were abusing this, it's under which program and did they sign up in the state? How do you [1:29:38] sign up for the program? It's underneath Medicaid. I can't say exactly what one it is, but it's part of [1:29:43] Medicaid. Part of Medicaid. Yeah. And so it gets back to this overarching. I mean, if we're talking [1:29:47] about big pools of money, Medicaid is this big pool of money, but it's a split between the federal and [1:29:52] the state government. And we do have to look at it. It's the only way we fix this. And the thing is, [1:29:58] is people look at it and they say, oh, you'd want to take away health care from poor people. [1:30:03] There's another way of looking at this is what about preserving health care for the very poor people who do [1:30:07] need it and getting rid of, you know, somebody who's able bodied who's lying about a disability [1:30:12] and is on Medicaid is actually taking money away from a deserving person. So I think there's another [1:30:18] way of looking at that. But people are very, very fearful of any kind of dollars. They think every if [1:30:23] you were to cut one dollar from Medicaid, that it's being taken away. But if they can be made to see [1:30:28] that, yeah, you're taking away from some guy stealing 10, 15, 20 million or 700 million dollars. [1:30:35] So I think this is a good hearing. And I think this may lead us to some other things that we can talk [1:30:40] about both with in the voting fraud atmosphere as well as more. So keep in touch with us and let us [1:30:46] know more. Did you have a final comment, Senator Ertz, that you want to make? [1:30:51] Of course, we always have a final comment. But no, again, just really appreciate our witnesses [1:30:57] coming today and sharing information with us and just reinforcing that we need to do our job as Congress [1:31:05] as well to ensure that when we do identify areas of fraud and loopholes that exist within our code, [1:31:14] that we take the initiative and close it up. But I would remind people that in order to do that, [1:31:21] we do have to have participation from the members on the left. Because in the Senate, we do require [1:31:27] bipartisan movement on any piece of legislation that comes to the Senate floor. So if they're not even [1:31:34] willing to engage in a hearing, then it's unlikely that they're actually going to engage in code or law [1:31:43] that will help us prevent fraud and recover those dollars for our American taxpayers. So thanks for [1:31:50] not only exposing fraud today, but exposing that we don't have support from the left on preventing fraud and [1:31:58] actually moving legislation that would solve the problem. So again, thank you all for being here [1:32:05] today. Thanks to the chair for being willing to hold this hearing. I'd like to thank our witnesses [1:32:10] for joining us today to share their testimony and expertise with the committee. The record for this [1:32:14] hearing will remain open until 5 p.m. on Friday, July 17, 2026 for the submission of statements and [1:32:20] and questions for the record. The hearing is now adjourned. Thank you.