Karen Read Trial (Pt 40.2) — Jen McCabe – Cross Examination

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: all right mr jackson whenever you're ready thank you miss mccabe family is important to you is it not yes as a matter of fact it's probably fair to say that family is one of the most important things in your life yes you indicated on a friday that you know john o'keefe or you knew john o'keefe and you considered him a friend yes you also indicated that you know miss reed and at some point you considered her a friend yes clearly john o'keefe was not family was he no he was not on the cave correct no he was not an albert no karen reed is not family correct correct not a mccabe no she's not an album no miss mccabe when you were at waterfall on the evening of the 28th going into the early morning hours of the 29th you spent some time with john o'keefe and karen reed correct you didn't see any tension between the two of them at the time no matter of fact they seem like a normal couple to you i didn't see them interact much they were both engaging with you correct she um i had separate conversations with them so john o'keefe we've seen from several videos i'm not going to play the video john o'keefe was situated for the most part over in that corner as the camera is looking the right corner of the bar along with you the cola keep this is uh i think matt mccabe was over there as well correct [00:01:36] Matt McCabe: i can't be sure but i know i spoke to karen in in that corner and certainly you saw nothing to [00:01:42] Speaker 1: suggest that there was any tension or discord between and among those individuals certainly between miss mc uh miss uh reed and mr o'keefe correct correct when you left fairview um were you among the first to leave or among the last to leave [00:02:07] Matt McCabe: i left with there was four of us that left total um it was myself my husband matt julie nagel and sarah [00:02:18] Speaker 1: levinson when you walked out um kareena colakeethis was close by close to the center correct oh wait are [00:02:27] Matt McCabe: you talking about leaving the waterfall oh i'm sorry i was confused i was talking about fairview leaving the waterfall correct yes we were one of the last to leave all right and miss uh kareena colakeethis [00:02:38] Speaker 1: was sort of in tow right with you as you're walking out correct yes karen reed my client was also heading that direction as well correct yes you said something to miss reed did you not as you walked out we were in a conversation yes did you say specifically you're coming with me to karen no you didn't say that not exactly those words what exactly were the words that you used i said why don't you come with me and you even waited outside in what was ultimately freezing cold temperatures correct yes if you could take a look uh your honor with your permission exhibit 53 i'd like to play about a maybe a 15 second clip from that okay mr cage you recognize what's depicted in this portion of the video i see a car it's kind of hard to see i don't know what the thing i'm the white thing is okay let's go ahead and play it let's see if you recognize it's not super clear can you see a person in that uh video from where i'm sitting now it's a little tough yes let's go ahead and play it forward well actually we can enhance that just a little bit did [00:04:12] Matt McCabe: you see a person in the background right there i don't i honestly i don't i can't make out what that is [00:04:19] Speaker 1: i don't know that's you isn't it i can't tell from that picture if that's me okay let's maybe play a little bit further forward now with the flag out of the way do you recognize anybody in the foreground down at the bottom right [00:05:06] Matt McCabe: that looks to be john mr o'keefe yes do you see someone to his right i do yes and who is that person i cannot make her make it out in the photo okay let's go ahead and play forward [00:05:23] Speaker 1: and pause you see the person with the sort of white shoes just above the car yes does that appear to be [00:05:28] Matt McCabe: you i can't make that out that it's me but i know i was there and i know i spoke with them okay so you [00:05:35] Speaker 1: do recall walking outside and sort of waiting and hovering in about that area correct i was talking with them okay does it appear that you're talking with them no this frame uh that looks like they've walked away right as a matter of fact it looked like they walked away without talking to you outside [00:05:52] Matt McCabe: correct well do you have video of moments before that when i was standing talking to them oh gee this is [00:05:59] Speaker 1: the point where i get to the point where i get to ask the questions and you get to answer so i'm asking you do you see yourself standing in the in the parking lot after john and the person who was right and walk away yes okay um let's play for just a few more seconds and what do you appear to be doing at that point walking to my car okay so you turn around and left after mr o'keefe and the person to his right walking correct correct as you sit here even though the video is leads a little to be desired you know that john o'keefe left with care correct yes so the person to his right the more petite person with long hair that would be care i would assume okay so you waited out in the parking lot for a few minutes after you said or joked you're coming with me or something like [00:06:56] Matt McCabe: that correct i wouldn't no i was speaking to them and then i walked to my car you didn't say to mr [00:07:06] Speaker 1: o'keefe you're coming with me you said to karen reed you're coming with me or something to that right [00:07:12] Matt McCabe: mr o'keefe was not outside when i said to karen you're coming with me i sold i told karen you're coming with me because john was still in the bar with matt so you asked karen to come with you in your car yes to give her a ride yes separate from john o'keefe yes i figured he could go with matt because [00:07:32] Speaker 1: they were still in the bar was there a reason why you wanted to separate miss reed from mr o'keefe at that moment no why not just walk to your car with matt go where you're gonna go matt was still inside so you thought it was important enough to make the statement you're coming with me or something that affects my client to separate her from john o'keefe even though your your testimony is john o'keefe was just [00:07:58] Speaker 3: inside the box objection sustained as to that form ask it differently sure uh did you believe it was [00:08:04] Speaker 1: important at that point uh to ask miss reed to come with you which would separate her from john o'keefe there was never any idea of separating them except for the fact the idea was you're coming with me not you two are coming with me correct incorrect by definition if she came with you you'd be separating her from john wouldn't you we were standing outside talking yes or no by definition your statement to her you come with me would separate her from john would not because we [00:08:39] Matt McCabe: were all going back to fairview road but not at the same time ma'am correct your idea is to bring karen with you separate and apart from john we were waiting we were waiting for john to come out and i said why don't you just come with me it was innocent i'm not asking for your explanation you'll get to [00:09:00] Speaker 1: that with mr lyle i'm asking for a yes or no question or yes no answer by definition your invitation would [00:09:07] Speaker 3: separate karen from john would it not objection sustained move on would it or would not separate john and [00:09:16] Speaker 1: karen for the right yes sustained now when you arrived at fairview [00:09:27] Matt McCabe: some folks were already there correct yes who was already there brian higgins brian albert nicole albert caitlin albert julie nagle sarah levinson and brian albert jr [00:09:47] Speaker 1: and then you arrived as we saw you walked through the parking lot got in your car you arrived i presume with your husband matt i yes correct i want to ask a question about mr higgins find out on friday that you saw his vehicle when you got to the scene correct yes and you said that it was pulled up a little bit in front of the mailbox correct yes can we have exhibit 66 with the court's permission please okay this is a digital model of the location do you recognize this yes there could be a relative scale model of 34 fairview yes this would be the front door correct and where's the mailbox if you can point uh point to it with the laser pointer okay so you're pointing to an area just in front of a car that's in the driveway correct yes and then the driveways to the right yes and along this line is the front lawn area and property line of 34 fairviews correct yes you indicated that that g was just a little bit in front of the mailbox meaning about there about there correct yes and the rear end of that jeep would be a buddy butting up against the driveway yes or at least the line of the driveway correct yes that's quite a bit of detail [00:11:36] Matt McCabe: about where that jeep was would you agree no because i drove down the street and i took a left into the [00:11:43] Speaker 1: driveway and there was a jeep there okay what i'm asking is you didn't just say your memory was not just somewhere in front of the house it's literally right in front of the mailbox the end of it adjoining the line of the driver correct yes that detail obviously stuck out in your mind it did because i was wondering whose jeep it was did you discuss that detail with your husband at any point [00:12:07] Matt McCabe: not sure you're not sure you're not sure why not i'm not sure if i said whose jeep is that no i don't [00:12:14] Speaker 1: mean then i mean between then and now have you and mr mccabe ever discussed where that jeep was your memories of where that jeep was possibly you're aware that he put the jeep in the exact same place that [00:12:28] Matt McCabe: are you aware of that i am oh wait no excuse me repeat the question you're aware that he puts the jeep [00:12:39] Speaker 1: in the exact same spot you just put the jeep right in front of that mailbox i know he knows where [00:12:44] Matt McCabe: the jeep was i'm not aware what he said in here does he know where the jeep was because you told him what to say about the jeep absolutely not it's because we drove together in the car and i asked [00:12:57] Speaker 1: i possibly could have asked one at a time please i'm sorry i didn't mean to step on your words that's [00:13:01] Speaker 3: okay you can continue thank you appreciate that i don't think we got your answer though okay yeah i think madam court reporter was asking for your answer can you repeat your answer [00:13:14] Matt McCabe: to the question of did he know where the jeep was i did not need to tell matt where the jeep is was he knew because we were in the car together but you two discussed it [00:13:31] Speaker 1: when are you asking at any time between january 29th and today i'm sure we have yes um you were also interviewed by trooper proctor on january 29th 2022 correct yes and you were asked a series of open-ended questions what did you see and where did you see correct yes have we put any words in your mouth now they told you what to say at that time now and you told trooper proctor that when you arrived at the scene after you got there you quote first observed the vehicle the vehicle meaning miss reed's suv parked on the street by the driveway facing the direction of [00:14:15] Matt McCabe: chaplin correct can i do you have something i can look at to refresh my memory sure do you not have [00:14:23] Speaker 1: a memory of exactly what you told trooper proctor well i know what i'm yes or no you need your memory [00:14:30] Matt McCabe: refresh i would like to see what the report says please permission yes [00:14:39] Speaker 1: paragraph three this is the face page you'll review that especially the highlighted portion let me know after you've reviewed it just read it to yourself did you have that uh is that refreshing recollection yes i know i told i'm asking you i'm so sorry to do this i don't mean to be rude i'm just asking you does that or does that not repress your recollection [00:15:00] Matt McCabe: regarding what you said to trooper proctor on the 29th well i know what i said to truck proctor [00:15:07] Speaker 1: trooper on the 29th okay i have to do it this way does that help you with your recollection of what [00:15:13] Matt McCabe: you told trooper proctor i didn't tell troop troop i told trooper proctor the car was outside the when [00:15:19] Speaker 1: i looked at the front door and was straight outside okay i can't quite get the answer i'm looking for the court is going to require me to ask this question again does that refresh your recollection yes or no as to what you told trooper proctor i did not say this to trooper proctor no it doesn't help no okay may i approach yes thank you so you did speak to trooper proctor on the 29th correct correct and trooper proctor asked you some very specific questions about where things were correct correct focused on miss reed's suv didn't he asked you questions about where miss reed's suv you can show me in the report [00:16:01] Matt McCabe: just read it so just off of what i just read is that what you're going off off of yes i'm asking for your memory you're testifying yes so my memory is exactly where the car was hold on so it's very [00:16:16] Speaker 3: important that both of you one person at a time speaks okay madam court reporter has to do what you're both saying and she can't do it simultaneously so the best way to do that is miss mccabe just let counsel ask the question and then you answer and if it takes a lot more time than we expect it to take it [00:16:34] Speaker 1: okay so just thanks go ahead mr jackson thank you i'll slow it down did you talk to trooper proctor about where the suv was yes thank you and he asked you questions about where it was situated outside correct yes and you told him that you first observed it parked on the street by the driveway facing the [00:16:57] Matt McCabe: direction of chapman correct i told him that when i looked out the front door the car was straight ahead and yes it was facing up chapman and you left out a little part by the driveway correct that could have been his interpretation or an error on his part i see so trooper proctor is wrong about what you said jackson no i'll let him have it do you think he's wrong about what you said i 100 said it was straight [00:17:30] Speaker 1: out the front door okay next question please thank you your honor and during the course of that conversation you never once miss mccabe not once mentioned a several ton jeep with a snow plow attached to it did you i'm not sure if i did or not let's take another look at the report would that refresh your recollection to see the report [00:17:56] Speaker 3: objection do you think that will help you i'll take a look at it okay may i yes you've had an [00:18:05] Speaker 1: opportunity i have yeah may i approach on yes that looks like a report from trooper proctor of your interview correct correct that interview was taken on january 29th correct correct that interview was taken just a few hours about days or weeks hours after the events in question correct correct and you were asked what you saw what you observed in front of 34th fairview on that morning correct i'm sorry the night before correct he asked specific questions about uh miss reed's vehicle okay and when you said where you remember this reads vehicle being you you placed it in the exact spot where you're now saying there was a jeep with a snow plow on it correct [00:18:50] Matt McCabe: incorrect i never placed miss reed's car in the spot where mr higgins vehicle was so as trooper proctor [00:18:59] Speaker 1: was taking notes about what you were saying he just got it wrong you'd have to ask trooper proctor i will um and you never mentioned according to that report not one word about a jeep right i was i may never have been asked about a jeep ah so if you weren't asked about a jeep you were also weren't asked about about a nissan ultima you mentioned that no right because what he asked you was what did you observe in front of the house ma'am that's what he asked you wasn't it no and you said i observed her car by the mailbox no and you never mentioned the jeep did you [00:19:41] Matt McCabe: you are not portraying what the conversation was did you or did you not mention a jeep sitting on that right by that driveway yes or no it's not in the report i don't remember recall if he asked me about [00:19:57] Speaker 1: a jeep now following the events of january 28th 29th um you spoke extensively to chris and julie albert correct what do you mean by extensively um did you speak at all yes we did between now and between then and now to chris and julie albert do i speak to chris and julie albert have you spoken to them about these events between then and now about this case is that what you're asking [00:20:30] Matt McCabe: yes mr cave i'm asking about this case of course i speak to them all the time about the vicious [00:20:35] Speaker 1: harassment we are all receiving that wasn't my question my question was did you talk to them about this case yes i realize you want to give additional answers in the tutorial i'm asking you [00:20:48] Speaker 3: very specific questions objection okay so objection as to the form we've talked about this aside by mr jackson [00:20:57] Speaker 1: you've talked to them about the details of that night correct the 28th going into the morning of the 29th yes you've talked to them about what happened at the bar correct we've spoke about how [00:21:10] Matt McCabe: we were all at the bar and karen and john came in is that yes or no yes okay you've spoken to them [00:21:15] Speaker 1: about uh your your memory of what happened at the house at 34 fairview that night yes you've spoken to them about who was at the bar not just what happened but who was there correct correct you talked to [00:21:26] Matt McCabe: them about the timing of the night correct i don't think specifically no when people came to the bar [00:21:33] Speaker 1: when they left when people got to fairview when they left fairview things of that nature well they [00:21:38] Matt McCabe: were at the bar so they know who was there and when they left and ask if you know what they know i'm [00:21:43] Speaker 1: asking if you've ever spoken to them about these issues yes or no i can't be sure if we've spoken about the time um and you've talked to them about when they got there and when they left i have no idea when they arrived at the waterfall once again ms mccabe that's not what my question was do you understand my question have you spoken to them about their memory of that night and when they came to life [00:22:17] Matt McCabe: me ah they have not shared with me when they got there or when they left in the two years or two and a half years since this event [00:22:26] Speaker 1: two and a half years since this event you've had extensive conversations with your friends and family about this circumstance correct correct yes um you've told them your observations of your story correct correct your observations of the night correct and they told you their observations of the night correct correct so you all have compared and contrasted your perspectives of what happened that night [00:22:51] Matt McCabe: correct we've tried to figure out what happened to john our friend and you've talked to them extensively [00:22:57] Speaker 1: about your observations and what your story or your version is is that right to be honest not [00:23:03] Matt McCabe: extensively speaking about it is very painful and difficult what does extensively mean more than twice [00:23:09] Speaker 1: well you tell me i'm asking the questions miss mccabe that's how this works i understand but extensively [00:23:16] Matt McCabe: would mean almost every day do you talk to them almost every day i do but not about the case subjects [00:23:22] Speaker 1: about this case come up every day the harassment of the case does yes what about the specific facts [00:23:29] Matt McCabe: of the case no it's the facts aren't spoken as much as the vicious harassment is spoken about so [00:23:40] Speaker 1: you've told them your version of the events correct and they've told you their version of the events correct and remind me chris and julie albert are in fact collins parents correct at some point you became aware that um your daughter ally was involved in this matter to some extent correct yes you became aware that uh there was an extraction of your phone that revealed some data about her whereabouts [00:24:15] Matt McCabe: that's not how i became aware now like 360. yes i know what that is that's what i'm asking about well you know your phone was extracted correct i willingly handed over my phone [00:24:25] Speaker 1: oh we'll get to that oh okay you know that your phone was extracted yes i handed it over and you know that your daughter's whereabouts uh were revealed based on data on that phone correct [00:24:44] Matt McCabe: i i that is not how i became aware of my daughter's whereabouts you testified at the [00:24:51] Speaker 1: state grand jury questioned by mr lally correct yes you were asked about the life 360. yes you answer those questions very fluidly yes yes i know what life 360 is i use it all the time it's an app et cetera absolutely okay let's go over that for a second you admitted that it works as a quote gps as far as where people go and everywhere that you go correct correct you indicated that it works as a reliable quote-unquote tracking device is your testimony correct you indicated that you rely on it quote so you know where your kids are at all where your kids are at all times is that right correct and you even said that it's a quote-unquote good parenting tool is that right correct and the reason you said that is because it's accurate in your experience and it's reliable is that right it's a good tool but it is not always accurate but you said when you testified in front of the great grand jury that it's accurate and it works as a gps as far as where you go and everywhere you go correct objection [00:25:53] Matt McCabe: did you say that can i see it sure [00:26:00] Speaker 1: does that refresh your recollection it does yes question and answer well i just don't see the word [00:26:05] Matt McCabe: accurate on there i don't know if i missed it mr cave does that refresh your recollection as the [00:26:09] Speaker 1: question and answer about whether you said it works as sort of a gps as far as where you go and everywhere that you go correct and your answer was yeah correct yes okay um so where did ali go after she supposedly dropped off colin albert she went nowhere did you check her life 360 app to [00:26:31] Matt McCabe: verify that she went nowhere at that point i had no reason to check her so the answer is no you didn't [00:26:39] Speaker 1: no okay um did you ever verify through the life the 360 app that in fact ali did not go home but rather was out driving until after 1 30 a.m you ever check the app and see that did i ever check like 360 app for that yeah no okay um but you believed her when she said she came home yes and just like you believed her when she said she picked up colin dropped him off and then came home yes okay um the alberts have a dog had a dog pardon me correct yes what's the dog's name chloe you indicated that on the morning of january 29th after 6 00 am still relatively dark out you burst into the bedroom of brian nicole albert's home correct yes you did that specifically to wake up according to you brian albert nicole albert correct yes where was clinton i don't know so you'll agree that at least from their perspective you walked in the front door unexpectedly correct yes you walked upstairs unexpectedly correct yes still dark outside right yes you walked through their door and you said you burst into the door into a dark room where they were sleeping correct yes mr albert said that you were somewhat hysterical would you agree with that yes you were loud right i was trying to wake them up you were somewhat chaotic yes and you don't remember a 70 pound german shepherd having any reaction no but you don't remember the dog being there at all correct correct you never saw that dog correct i have no memory of seeing that dog okay so as you sit here today you cannot say that the dog was here because you don't have a memory of ever seeing it i did not see it no and remind me once again when you were leaving that night that early morning before [00:29:10] Matt McCabe: who was the last person to leave it's caitlin i believe she left after us [00:29:22] Speaker 1: we talked about this and i want to get into a little bit more detail about it you indicated that at some point you looked outside and you saw karen reed's suv in front of the house safe to say correct correct correct about what time was that but you first saw it [00:29:42] Matt McCabe: pro i can just give you maybe approximates um i know i texted when i saw them so whatever time that was [00:29:53] Speaker 1: all right let's see if we can narrow that down just a little bit you also indicated that you saw ryan nagel's vehicle outside saw lights okay lights belonging to the vehicle right yes i knew there was another vehicle outside and where was that in relation to miss reed's vehicle it was behind it i didn't pay much attention to it okay and where was the jeep in relation to ryan nagle's vehicle and karen reed's suv [00:30:24] Matt McCabe: i remember seeing karen reed's suv straight and then i saw the lights of ryan nagle i did not pay attention to where it was i was just looking at miss reed's vehicle was ryan nagle's vehicle and those [00:30:38] Speaker 1: lights that you remember were they in front of the jeep or behind you i am not certain i am not certain where ryan nagle's vehicle was so as you sit here now you don't know if it was in front of the jeep as you placed it by the mailbox definitely i it would be behind the jeep or somewhere in between it definitely was not in front of the jeep definitely it was not in front of the jeep no so it was definitely behind the jeep behind or to the side i'm not sure well if it's parked on the street in front of the house it's not going to be beside the jeep right that's going to be in the middle it would have been in the middle [00:31:38] Matt McCabe: of the road correct so if it's pulled over it's behind the jeep okay so now we've narrowed that down [00:31:43] Speaker 1: care reads suv as we're looking at the property care reads suv to the right of that as we're looking at on the street at the property to the right of that jeep behind that ryan nagle's vehicle correct correct you're sure about that [00:32:01] Matt McCabe: if my memory serves right yes if your memory serves okay so [00:32:09] Speaker 1: you were asked about the arrival of mr nagle's car at the state grand jury do you recall that i believe so that was in april april 26th 2022 okay okay does that sound about right yeah i expect you yes that day yes um you told the you were asked what time did you see ryan nagle's vehicle arrive at the location and you indicated that it was 12 23. do you remember that do you have it i do okay okay yes you were asked do we know what time the brother came meaning ryan nagle okay correct um and the question for mr lally was that was from a grand jury the question for mr lally was if you know correct correct and your answer was i believe he was out front at 12 23 is that right correct and the reason you could be so precise with that time miss mccabe is because you had asked julie nagle to give you her text messages with ryan for that night and you'd refresh your recollection about the time right correct all right and you've also testified that as soon as you saw miss reed's suv you texted john is that right correct your exclamation point question mark that was the first text right correct but your text to john was at 12 27. you recall that yes that's four minutes after you know ryan nagle arrived at the scene correct correct since karen reed arrived before ryan nagle she and john had to have been there four to five minutes [00:34:12] Matt McCabe: before you ever saw her miss right objection i'll let him have her is that right ryan nagle texted his sister at 12 23 here and then he texted again that he was going to leave then julie nagle went outside and that's not my question i'm explaining what happened in the four [00:34:36] Speaker 1: minutes you can explain at another question my question is very specific given the fact that karen reed by by definition arrived at the location before ryan nagle and ryan nagle arrived at 12 23 that means and you didn't notice the suv until 12 27 that means her car was there for at least four minutes [00:35:06] Speaker 3: before before you ever noticed it correct objection is that correct can you answer that question correct [00:35:16] Speaker 1: the snow condition we've heard a lot about the snow condition i'm not going to beat that dead but it's safe to say that you would agree with me that it was a light dusting of snow correct i should be specific about the time um it was a light dusting of snow at or around 12 to 12 30 12 45 something like that it was starting to accumulate okay and accumulate means stick to the ground not just fall and melt right yes so it was starting to turn like a like a very thin blanket of white yes you indicate that are you indicated on friday that you saw some sort of tire tracks is that right on friday i don't believe i thought in your testimony to mr lally on friday you indicated that you saw some tire tracks i could be wrong yes i don't remember that okay let me ask you did you see any tire tracks at one point yes okay when was that point i'm not sure was it before miss reed's vehicle got there was it after let's use that as a barometer first i believe it was after miss reed's vehicle [00:36:31] Matt McCabe: was there because that's why i was drawn to look outside and what did those tire tracks look like how would you describe it almost like as a as a way like this so uh like a like a half j to my recollection it was almost like started if miss reed's vehicles here let's pretend it was kind of like that like a bit of a weight so if you started on coming towards her it'd be more of a wave okay like [00:37:03] Speaker 1: this in the road what it sounds like is perhaps i don't want to put your mouth but perhaps what you're describing is tracks in the middle of the road if someone is pulling off parallel they would pull to the right and then stop and those are the tracks that you saw that's the wave that you saw [00:37:22] Matt McCabe: it wasn't um up to her car it was it doesn't look like your your description okay fair enough fair enough [00:37:33] Speaker 1: i'm just trying here so it didn't go up to her car those tracks belong to somebody else [00:37:40] Matt McCabe: well when i saw her car it had already moved up well wait a minute you already said that when [00:37:46] Speaker 1: you saw her car it was directly and then it moved at one point right that's what i'm asking about let's just take the point at which you first saw the car is that yes yes okay when you first saw the car [00:37:57] Matt McCabe: that's when you saw the tire tracks you just said that no i did not say when i first saw the car i saw the [00:38:02] Speaker 1: tire tracks i thought you just said a couple of questions ago that you saw the tire tracks because your attention was drawn to her car that would be the first time you saw her car [00:38:13] Matt McCabe: correct i'm saying i saw the tire tracks because i was looking out at her car i never said when i saw the tire tracks or where her car was when i saw the tire tracks well i thought you just said as i asked [00:38:30] Speaker 1: when did you see the tire tracks you said i saw the tire tracks when i looked and saw her car because my attention was drawn to her car i saw the tire tracks that would be the first time you looked at her car [00:38:42] Matt McCabe: correct it's not doesn't have to be the first time i looked at her car i looked out multiple times did [00:38:50] Speaker 1: you see the tire tracks the second time well i'm not exactly sure did you see them the third time again i'm not sure okay so it could have been the first time could have been but they didn't lead to the back tires of her car no in addition to mr i'm sorry trooper proctor interviewing you on the 29th you also gave um extensive testimony on april 26 2022 in front of a state court grand jury correct correct and you were asked about the location of miss reed's vehicle i'm still staying with that for just a quick second if you don't mind is that right correct you were asked where that suv was in [00:39:39] Matt McCabe: relation to ryan nagel's car is that right would i be able to look at it to refresh my memory please [00:39:45] Speaker 1: well let's start with this do you remember being asked about karen reed's suv and ryan nagel's truck [00:39:54] Matt McCabe: to be honest i've had a few grand jerry's so i'm if you could show me what you're talking about i would greatly appreciate it [00:40:11] Speaker 1: i did yes um as you glance those pages my question was a simple one relatively simple one i wanted you to have an opportunity um at no point when you were describing the vehicles that were out front in front of 34th fairview on that night at no point under oath in front of that grand jury did you [00:40:35] Matt McCabe: ever mention a jeep did you i was not asked about any other vehicles out front so when you were talking [00:40:42] Speaker 1: about the vehicles that you saw in front in some painstaking detail talking about the black suv and ryan nagel's truck you just left out the jeep because nobody asked you about it i didn't read [00:40:54] Matt McCabe: anything in that about ryan nagel's jeep vehicle did you miss it i must have okay is it in there [00:41:01] Speaker 1: yeah it is okay what in fact asked about ryan nagel's jeep weren't you if you want to show me well i don't want to sit here and did you review your transcript i just read it all i didn't see it miss mccade jackson can't interrupt what i'm talking okay i will do the same okay as you reviewed those pages you were asked about the cars that you saw in front did you not i was asked about miss reid's vehicle okay and at no point did you mention a jeep being behind this read's vehicle as you testified today correct the questions were all about miss reid's vehicle at no point my question is this it's yes or no you did or you didn't did you mention ever in that grand jury that there was a jeep behind the street's vehicle yes or no i'm not sure i'd have to read it all as you sit here do you recall mentioning the jeep i was asked about miss reid's vehicle and those are the questions i answered i can't you need to keep you okay sorry let's try this again as you sit here do you recall mentioning the jeep [00:42:10] Matt McCabe: i would have to reread the transcript you don't have to reread the transcript to answer that question [00:42:16] Speaker 1: do you recall mentioning the jeep if you don't you don't i may not have been asked about the jeep so [00:42:23] Matt McCabe: i did not mention the jeep fair enough [00:42:28] Speaker 1: did you mr higgins between then and now you know the the date of the incident and now have you ever had a conversation with mr higgins about where his jeep was parked now have you ever had a conversation with mr higgins about anything having to do with this case i do not believe so did anyone leaving mr higgins aside did anyone tell you anything about mr higgins's jeep and what he testified to now were you ever asked by anybody to mention a jeep to mention a jeep being behind miss reed's suv in this trial can you repeat the question please have you ever asked by anybody to make sure you mention a jeep being parked behind miss reed's suv in this trial not that i recall no after you arrived and you noticed this suv outside you started paying somewhat close attention to it did you not i went to the front door and looked out the window at the vehicle yes as a matter of fact you texted as soon as you saw the vehicle that 12 27 here correct correct and then a few minutes later at 12 31 you texted pull behind me to john is that right correct and then at 12 40 you texted hello correct correct and at 12 42 you texted where are you correct and at 12 45 you texted hello correct correct so that's five text messages and each time you texted him you were walking to the door and looking out at the vehicle as you're texting correct i know for the first two i was you testified at another hearing another proceeding on june 8 2023 correct correct in that other proceeding did you testify that you got up and sat down and got up and sat down every time you were texting possibly okay so if you got up and walked over to the door and you see the suv and you text and then you walk away from the door and sit down for a second that would be one text and one view of the suv correct yes so if you did that at 12 27 12 31 12 40 12 42 and 12 45 you'd agree that's five times that you were up and down looking at the suv correct i'm not sure if i did it five times how many [00:45:24] Matt McCabe: times you think you did do it i know i definitely did it the first when i said here i know i definitely did it when i said pull behind me because that's when the vehicle had moved up a little bit and then did you see the vehicle move up again a second time yes that's when i told him to pull behind me [00:45:41] Speaker 1: okay so that's the first time so just so we're clear when you first saw the suv it was stationary [00:45:47] Matt McCabe: correct when i first saw the vehicle it was straight ahead out the front door stationary and [00:45:53] Speaker 1: you texted here correct then you walked back over to the window or i'm sorry to the door to the storm door and you said pull behind me correct at 12 31 correct all right at that point you saw that it had moved up a little bit is that right yes okay so if you saw it move up a second time which you just said you did then that would be a third time that you had to have seen it and texted correct why would that be third time because it only moved once so far you saw it move twice so the first time i saw it [00:46:25] Matt McCabe: it was here and i said here and then the next time i texted i said pull behind me so that was one time [00:46:34] Speaker 1: two times keep going you said you saw it pull up again a second time so you saw it move twice [00:46:44] Matt McCabe: from one place to the flagpole to further up right so that's three times that you're up to the door okay is that yes i'm telling you my memory is twice to the door okay it's not a trick question you [00:46:58] Speaker 1: just testified that you saw the car move twice by definition that has to be you looked at it three times stationary move once move twice maybe i used the wrong wording maybe so when you testified in front of this other proceeding didn't you tell didn't you testify that you walked up and sat back down five different times watching that car and texting every single time [00:47:44] Matt McCabe: would you be able to show me that it's going to take a minute [00:47:57] Speaker 3: may i yes [00:48:03] Speaker 1: you had an opportunity miss mccade to review those few pages from your testimony in june of 2023 yes did you talk about you're asked about going getting up and sitting down and looking at the suv several different times and texting yes uh in fact you indicated that you got up and text and sorry got up and looked outside through that storm door several times correct yes and as a matter of fact you looked every single time that you texted you indicated that you looked out at the suv and saw something that prompted you to text something correct correct correct and then after the last time which would be five times five texts five looks after the last time you texted you got back up which would be a sixth time and the suv was gone just chronologically [00:48:55] Matt McCabe: correct my my husband and i were both getting up and looking so i didn't ask you about your husband [00:49:00] Speaker 1: okay just about you the answer is correct yes okay um so you're indicating that you're trying to communicate with the occupant of the suv that was sitting what would you say 30 feet outside the front door i'm not good with distance it's further than you and i are from each other correct correct correct at least double that correct okay so could you give me maybe yards are easier like 10 yards 15 yards again i'm not good with measurements okay uh just right outside the front door then straight outside yes well straight outside [00:49:39] Matt McCabe: until it to the front door of the front door is where it was okay straight outside until it moved according to you correct yes and then it moved correct and then moved the second time correct it moved to the flagpole and then it moved up again okay then you indicated that you had an absolutely [00:49:58] Speaker 1: clear view of the suv you were asked those questions correct if i had a clear view clear view [00:50:04] Matt McCabe: i could see the car out front yes you were asked you were looking out the front door of the house [00:50:10] Speaker 1: your answer was uh-huh you were asked and there's a window in that door right answer it was opened yeah question so you had a clear view outside answer a clear view outside yes remember that yes okay um and is [00:50:27] Matt McCabe: that your memory you had a clear view i had a clear view of karen's vehicle outside correct [00:50:34] Speaker 1: and then you reiterated that with the following inter exchange question was the amount of snow action down sufficient so let's hear the question was the amount of snow coming down sufficient to obstruct your view of the vehicle or did you have a clear view of it answer i had a good view of it [00:50:55] Speaker 3: the objection is as to the form of the question and the reading no that's okay i'm going around [00:51:00] Speaker 1: the question was that your testimony yes so not only did you have a clear view you indicated in your words you had a good view of it right correct then you noticed that the suv was gone after the 1245 text right correct so you're looking at that suv over the course of between the beginning text and the end text it's about 19 minutes right 1227 or so to 12 45 18 19 minutes something like that correct correct we may add a minute because you got back up and didn't text the suv was gone right correct so you would agree we just do some basic math you're looking at that suv on average about every three three and a half minutes [00:51:50] Matt McCabe: i guess i i'm if you want to pull out the times and you can look at them well we talked about the times [00:51:56] Speaker 1: and you agreed that you were texting between 12 27 and 12 45 correct right so if you were just to divide that by five times sitting up and looking um i don't know i was doing the math in my head maybe it's every three minutes or so correct at no time did you hear any noise or sound outside that was unusual no you didn't hear any squealing of tires or squealing of brakes no you didn't hear any screaming or yelling no you didn't hear any loud voices or foul language or door slam no you didn't hear any verbal argument or the revving of an engine anything like that no matter of fact you didn't hear any collision or crash did you no matter of fact the entire time that you looked out at that vehicle with that clear and that good view you didn't see anything out of the ordinary did you no and you would agree with me as you looked at the suv you're looking over the bond to the suv out of the street correct correct there was no obstruction between you and the suv you've already testified to that is that right correct and you can see everything in your field of view correct and then you saw the suv gone it had driven away after 12 45. correct so i have a question ms mccabe [00:53:40] Matt McCabe: where was the body i have no idea i'm assuming the body was on the front lawn [00:53:50] Speaker 1: the problem with that is you were looking at the front lawn [00:53:57] Matt McCabe: i was looking at the vehicle and where it had moved [00:54:00] Speaker 1: you know what the field of view is [00:54:05] Matt McCabe: would you like to explain it [00:54:09] Speaker 1: you had a clear and good view across that lawn to the suv didn't you when it was straight out i did yes i could see the black suv correct nothing was obstructing your vision i wasn't looking at the ground i didn't ask you about the ground yet we'll get to the ground nothing was obstructing your vision was it no so you had a clear and good your words not mine a clear and good view of the suv yes and everything in front of it i never said everything in front of it i saw [00:54:48] Matt McCabe: the suv it's black it has lights on and as it moved i could see it with its lights you had a clear view [00:54:56] Speaker 1: of everything between you and the suv all the things closer to you and the suv i wouldn't say that [00:55:03] Matt McCabe: so your view was obstructed on what was between you and the suv but not obstructed on the suv that's not what i was saying no of course not because if you had a clear field of view to the suv you could [00:55:15] Speaker 1: see everything in front of it as well meaning between you and the suv as well if i'm looking [00:55:21] Matt McCabe: straight out at an suv i'm not looking down at the ground question about that you're focusing right [00:55:27] Speaker 1: now on my face yes as you're answering these questions you think you'd see i don't know an alligator sitting in front of me if it was there objection on yes i think you would see something can you clearly see that there is nothing between you and me except a podium yes well there's a table and you don't have to look down to see that right correct you're looking directly in my face but you can see things that are between you and me because you have a field of vision right objection so i'm [00:55:56] Speaker 3: going to see council at sidebar for just a minute [00:56:05] Speaker 1: miss mccabe as you looked over that flat lawn with that good and clear view of the suv you could see the suv and everything between you and the suv correct when i looked out the front window i [00:56:19] Matt McCabe: could see the suv clearly like i'm looking at you while right now and it was further away than you [00:56:25] Speaker 1: are and you did it not once not twice not three times you did it five times and then a sixth after it was gone correct correct and after that suv was gone and you looked out that window with that clear [00:56:43] Matt McCabe: and good view there was no body was there i never saw a body thank you i wish i had [00:56:54] Speaker 1: sounds like that's a little rehearsed not at all it's not at all i'll let the answer stand you left the location about 145 is that right yes you didn't see anything out of the ordinary as you got in was it your car or mr mccabe's car it was my car when you got in that suv of yours you didn't see anything out of the ordinary outside correct i wasn't looking outside okay i know that that is the answer that you want to give every question my question is yes or no did you see anything out of the one there no thank you you didn't see anything out of the ordinary when you got in the vehicle no you didn't see anything out of the ordinary when the black vehicle backed up no when that vehicle turned to the i guess it would be to the right to lead toward chapman and the headlights illuminated the area in front of you didn't see anything out of the ordinary i wasn't looking out the front window again there's that question i mean there's that answer my question is [00:58:11] Matt McCabe: did you see anything out of the ordinary well you were asking about the headlights out the front that's why i said i didn't see anything out there front you didn't see the headlights turned on i was turned [00:58:22] Speaker 1: to the back right did you see that the headlights came on the car yes in the driveway the headlights came on right and you're seated in front passenger seat correct correct so according to you you got in the car and immediately twisted yourself looking directly to the rear and never turned back around and never looked outside the windows correct got it is that normal for you um yeah i'm a very chatty [00:58:47] Matt McCabe: person so i turned to talk to the girls so you made sure that you didn't look out the window nope that's [00:58:52] Speaker 1: not it at all you also didn't hear anybody you did hear some girls in the back since they were so chatting talking about bread and sandwiches or something right correct but you never heard anybody say anything about noticing anything out of the ordinary correct correct you didn't hear julie nagel say that she saw a black object in the yard never heard that but you were turned around looking right back according to you correct correct indeed engaging them in conversation according to you correct so that you can make sure that you weren't looking out the front or right windows objection can you answer [00:59:28] Matt McCabe: that is that why you did it no that's not why i did it i was talking to the two girls [00:59:35] Speaker 1: when you got home what did you do i went up to bed what time do you think you got home [00:59:44] Matt McCabe: somewhere after approximately between 2 and 2 15. um took you a few minutes to drop the girls off correct [01:00:00] Speaker 1: when you got home you got on your phone correct yes before you got on your phone you went upstairs to your bedroom yes did you use any applications well let me ask it this way first did you make any phone calls just using your phone in phone calls after you got home either downstairs or downstairs i do not believe so did you use any applications to communicate with anybody uh through wi-fi do you know what i mean by that like facetime audio or whatsapp phone calls things like that text message no actually talk and you may not use these but i'm asking did you use any kind of third-party app that uses wi-fi viop voip calls other than just a phone call no okay sounds like you don't even know what that is i [01:00:56] Matt McCabe: don't even know what you're talking about fair enough [01:01:01] Speaker 1: so it's safe to say that you didn't use or you don't use any multimedia to communicate you don't [01:01:05] Matt McCabe: use facetime or snapchat or signal or anything like that i've used facetime with my children yes [01:01:11] Speaker 1: not for phone calls no facetime audio is a way that you can make a call no i've facetimed with [01:01:18] Matt McCabe: my kids at school but that's videos oh okay so yeah i guess not you didn't do that that night either [01:01:25] Speaker 1: not that i recall did you now i'm going to get back to your question did you text anybody i did yes [01:01:35] Matt McCabe: i texted my sisters and i texted my husband and a friend in a group chat um you texted your [01:01:45] Speaker 1: husband and a friend in a group chat yes yes your husband was home yes i want to switch gears for a second and ask you real quick about later that morning when you went to john mckee's house you mentioned on friday that you went into his house and began to look around for him when you first got there with kerry roberts and my client karen reed correct yes uh you indicated that you saw you looked in his bedroom and saw that the bed was made correct yes you also looked you indicated that you looked around other parts of the house looking for him searching for him is that right yes you obviously saw the blankets and pillows on the couch downstairs in the living room correct i peeked over at the couch and you're aware that karen reed stayed on the couch that night to wait for john to come home [01:02:47] Matt McCabe: i'm not aware of that now [01:02:51] Speaker 1: you testified on friday that my client said at the scene when you got back to the scene uh 34th airview just after 6 a.m but she said i hit him three times she declared it correct correct not once not twice three times i hit him i hit him i hit him correct correct you have a very specific memory of that event do you not i do obviously that's an incredibly impactful thing for you to remember for you to remember is that right it was an impactful statement yes and you remember it today as well as you remember it the day she did yes i'm going to hand you a document did you before i ask you about that specific document did you review anything before you testified in preparation for your testimony today or friday yes did you review your grand jury testimony i did yes you did review your grand jury testimony correct yes so the document in front of you you recognize it yes that is in fact a true and correct copy of your grand jury testimony on what you gave on april 26th 2022 is that right correct you'll agree that your testimony in that case uh in that in that hearing rather april of 2022 that was just a few months after the events in question right yes you were under oath at the time that you gave that that testimony yes and you were subject to the penalty of perjury when you're answering those questions correct yes miss mccabe i'd like you to turn to the page since you've reviewed this turn to the page of that document where you ever said in your testimony that my client said i hit him i hit him i hit him i'm not sure if it's in this document but i can tell you today with 100 [01:04:57] Matt McCabe: 100 clarity she said i hit him i hit him i hit him on that morning so it's not in that document is it i'm not sure if if i could take the time and do you want me to [01:05:13] Speaker 1: read to over 200 pages may i approach yes no i don't want to take the time because you just indicated that you reviewed this document in anticipation of your testimony right correct so you've gone over it recently a few weeks back so we don't need to read it you know that you never testified to that in the grand jury in april of 2022 don't you i don't know that as a fact i [01:05:36] Matt McCabe: would have to reread 222 pages or however long it is you think you might have missed it when you reviewed [01:05:43] Speaker 1: your testimony in anticipation for i'm sorry when you reviewed your transcript in anticipation for your testimony [01:05:48] Matt McCabe: objection i read it i read it i read it a few weeks ago [01:05:55] Speaker 1: it's probably the most powerful part of your testimony ma'am [01:05:58] Matt McCabe: and i will never forget it check okay so that's [01:06:01] Speaker 1: stricken would you agree do you think that's a powerful part of your testimony [01:06:08] Matt McCabe: it is yes did you see it in the transcript i cannot recall it's over 200 pages [01:06:18] Speaker 3: it is yes [01:06:27] Speaker 1: these are select pages out of your grand jury testimony isn't it true miss mccabe that you were asked and you testified no fewer than 12 times what my client said either at the scene or on the way to the scene at the scene i was asked twice according to this my question is isn't it true that in april of 2022 you testified no fewer than 12 times 12 separate statements you gave about what my client's statements were either at the scene or in the car ride on the leading up to to go into the scene you remember that you remember that i do okay so on page 190 of what you're looking at these should all be highlighted it is you testified that my client said to you over the phone at 4 53 a.m she asked the question did i hit him you see that i do number two on page 192 page 193 lines one through two you testified that in the car once again she asked the question could she have hit him you're relaying that meaning could i have hit him correct correct page 193 page 193 line 23 in john's driveway she asked the question quote and she's asking if she could have hit him yes page 201 driving to fairview she asked the question what if i hit him and could i have hit him correct correct page 202 lines one through two while driving to fairview she asked the question could i have hit him correct page 202 lines 24 through 25 outside at fairview she asked the question did i hit him and went on to ask could i have hit him correct correct and your testimony was also on page 208 that karen was yelling non-stop in front of the female emt did i hit him could i have hit him is he dead correct correct correct may i approach yes that's 12 times that you read it reiterated under oath under penalty of perjury in april of 2022 when my client's statements were either at the scene or leading up to getting to the scene correct correct every single one of those 12 separate times you indicated that she asked a question something like could i have hit him or did i hit him correct correct not one time in that testimony did you say she declared i hit him i hit him [01:10:08] Matt McCabe: i hit him did you the questions that were asked when she said i hit him i hit him i hit him that was at the scene in response to an officer asking questions what i just read was asked when she first called me or when we were driving in the car or when we were at john's house so i was answering the question that i was [01:10:32] Speaker 1: asked so you believe that you weren't asked the question did she say to an officer i hit him i hit him i hit him and if you're not asked the question did she say to an officer i hit him i hit him i hit him you're not going to volunteer that she said i hit him i hit him that's your testimony no that's not my [01:10:50] Matt McCabe: testimony is officer was asking her what his name was and different things about him and at that point she was saying i hit him i hit him i hit him which officer i do not recall well you recall me i hit him [01:11:07] Speaker 1: you just told me that was the most impactful thing in the morning it was it was shocking so what officer [01:11:11] Matt McCabe: did she say this to supposedly i was more focused on her and her hysteria than which officer was asking the [01:11:18] Speaker 1: question so you have no idea who the officer was even correct i'm not sure which officer was asking [01:11:23] Matt McCabe: her it could have been an emt someone said what is his name does he have medical conditions how old [01:11:28] Speaker 1: is he but you were asked that question ma'am on page 208 you were asked what she said in front of the female emt who was asking her questions and her answer was i'm sorry your answer was she said did i hit him could i have hit him is he dead is that right that is correct that would have been a good time to offer up that she confessed i hit him i hit him i hit him right objection sustained as to that form miss mccade the truth of the matter is you've manufactured this new story for this jury because you think it helps you out absolutely not you called 911 at 604 a.m is that right yes your honor with the court's permission exhibit 36 has already been marked and entered i would ask to play a portion of that 9-1-1 tape not the entirety of it okay with the court's permission i'd ask uh to play about run time 1 30 to 1 45 john is um 46 how long has he been outside i don't know um i i don't know he got out of the car and [01:13:15] Speaker 4: me [01:13:18] Speaker 1: was that you yes that was that the 911 to call yes it was and what did you just say [01:13:24] Matt McCabe: i said i don't know he got out of the car he got out of the car [01:13:28] Speaker 1: what you said correct yes and this was at 603 in the morning correct correct this is before you ever talked to brian albert correct correct or you ever talked to your sister nicole albert correct before you ever talked to chris albert correct or you ever talked to julie albert correct you haven't talked to anybody at this point other than kerry roberts correct and karen reed and my client correct and in that 911 call [01:14:02] Matt McCabe: you said you said he got out of the car i did because karen reed had told me that she had left him there [01:14:12] Speaker 1: your words were he got out of the car correct correct correct did you make any other calls other than to 911 i called my sister what time was that [01:14:27] Matt McCabe: i believe it was after the 911 but i'm not sure you claim that your sister didn't answer is that right she did not answer [01:14:41] Speaker 1: but you do know that your phone interaction shows that that was an answered call [01:14:44] Matt McCabe: at 607. if that's what it shows but i can tell you she did not answer the phone and you [01:14:52] Speaker 1: are sure about that as you are my client said i hit him three times right i certainly am yes perfect you also called her at 608. i might have called her twice yes your honor i have a um exhibit this may be as good a time as any to take a break if you wish i just have to queue it up it's up to [01:15:15] Speaker 3: you i don't mind folks we'll take um okay whenever you're ready mr jackson thank you your honor [01:15:26] Speaker 1: mccabe i want to go back very briefly to something you said just before we broke and that was in respect of the statements that you attribute to my client out of the scene you said well there was an officer possibly asking questions or it could have been a female emt and i wasn't answering questions about that correct hence you didn't say i hit him i hit him i hit him can you be clear on your question let me rephrase that before we broke a few minutes ago you had said the reason i didn't say i hit him i hit him i hit him because i was never asked and the subject never came up about what an officer asked her when she declared that so i just didn't offer it and then you said or it could have been an emt yes i'm unclear who was there isn't it true that at the grand jury the question that was posed to you and this is council page 208 the question that was posed to you is quote so where does what happens next with yourself miss roberts and miss reed and your answer was so there are different you know police officers getting statements from us at one point i'm standing with miss reed and she's saying did i hit him could i have hit him and there was i believe an emt a female standing right next to me and listening to her yelling did i hit him could i have hit him is he dead is he dead is he dead was pretty much non-stop remember that testimony i do so in point of fact you were answering the direct question about what happened in front of the police officer and the emt correct there were multiple police officers and multiple emts present so now this is another police officer and a different emt i'm not saying that okay but nowhere in this did you say that she declared the words i am correct we'll agree on that correct your honor i have a um an item i would like to mark as next in order okay yes with the court permission i would like to play a portion of this and then stop it okay [01:17:50] Speaker ?: and ask us a couple questions about it okay it's audio um yes i need some of the 34th year people uh 34th year people get mapped because they may and stop throwing in the snow um yes i need some of the 34th year people uh 34th year people get mapped because they may and stop throwing in the snow [01:18:20] Speaker 5: okay i've paused the audio tape just to ask you a couple of foundational questions do you recognize [01:18:36] Speaker 1: what's on that audio tape yes that is my voice okay uh you recognize you starting a uh a 911 call correct correct similar to the call we just listened to a few minutes ago which would be actual 911 call correct what's the difference between the two of them i'm about to explain it it's a it's a confusing question i apologize this appears to be a open voicemail overhearing your 911 call [01:19:04] Matt McCabe: do you recognize that now that you explain it okay you hear a rhythmic [01:19:12] Speaker 1: the windshield wipers okay so that would have been that was my next question that would have been an open voicemail that was recorded inside the cab of the suv that you were seated in correct correct overhearing you call 911 and overhearing whatever else was going on ambient noise at the scene correct correct does that sound like a true incorrect copy of at least a portion of the 911 call that you heard i have to listen to it again but well why don't we continue listening to it and see if you recognize it okay with more information yes it's about four minutes in total your honor okay weird blankets do you hear a person in the background screaming yes who is that miss reid [01:20:38] Speaker 5: okay okay [01:21:38] Speaker ?: okay okay [01:22:04] Speaker 5: okay [01:22:18] Speaker ?: okay okay okay okay okay okay [01:22:18] Speaker 5: okay [01:22:32] Speaker ?: okay okay okay okay okay okay okay [01:22:32] Speaker 5: okay [01:22:46] Speaker ?: okay okay okay do you hear uh the audio recording that we just marked uh in evidence i did it was very muffled and some parts were very hard to understand [01:23:00] Matt McCabe: understood [01:23:14] Speaker ?: understood [01:23:14] Speaker 1: the person on the phone who was that person i called 911 [01:23:18] Matt McCabe: i called 911 [01:23:20] Speaker 1: and the person that was for the most part the person's voice that you could hear streaming sounding sort of hysterical who was that Karen could you also hear Carrie Roberts voice at various times in the background [01:23:32] Speaker ?: yes [01:23:32] Speaker 1: and she was a lack of a better word trying to calm Karen down yes [01:23:40] Matt McCabe: yes [01:23:42] Speaker 1: at some point telling her to just shut up you're not helping yes exactly because she was so hysterical and so upset erratic um i want to play the rest of this it appears that the this recording is longer than your 911 call you would agree with that well i'd have to see well the 911 calls already ended correct i'm not sure how long was the 911 call okay [01:24:06] Matt McCabe: this is about three and a half minutes into a four minute recording [01:24:08] Speaker 1: um my only question is would you agree that the 911 call is subsumed within this full four minute recording i couldn't make that from that muffled you couldn't tell i couldn't tell [01:24:20] Matt McCabe: so if you have my phone racket you could i'm assuming tell when the four the 911 call ended because i know the 911 call was long because there were multiple they you know they had transferred me multiple times right [01:24:38] Speaker 1: my question to you is i'd like you to listen very very closely and i know that is a it is a muffled recording by definition um from this point forward i want you to pay very close attention i want to ask you if you hear a voice very muffled toward the face of this recording yes did you hear a muffled voice [01:25:00] Speaker ?: in the foreground after you heard miss reed scream or yell i heard two people talking okay and one of those was a very muffled voice [01:25:14] Speaker 1: on this recording correct most of the recording was muffled the one i'm talking about it i just played the voice that was muffled in the foreground of the audio recording for one of the better phrase [01:25:36] Matt McCabe: yes you just i heard that yes was that you i don't i'm going i don't know if that was me [01:25:42] Speaker ?: there's nobody else in the cabin car with you was there [01:25:44] Matt McCabe: i was standing at the trunk of the car [01:25:46] Speaker 1: outside of the car yes they were kind of running back and forth at times [01:25:50] Matt McCabe: and jerry was over by mr o'keefe for most of that [01:25:52] Speaker 1: yes but you were the one by the car [01:25:56] Matt McCabe: back and forth yes they were kind of running back and forth at times [01:26:00] Speaker 1: and jerry was over by mr o'keefe for most of that [01:26:04] Matt McCabe: yes [01:26:06] Speaker 1: but you were the one by the car [01:26:08] Matt McCabe: back and forth [01:26:10] Speaker ?: mm-hmm [01:26:12] Speaker 1: you called nicole your sister uh by the way had this in it did we we finished playing this just for um [01:26:22] Speaker ?: 15 minutes okay thank you okay [01:26:42] Speaker 1: that appears to be the end of the date [01:26:44] Speaker ?: okay [01:26:44] Speaker 1: okay uh you called your sister at 607 and 42 seconds correct [01:26:52] Matt McCabe: i don't have my phone record in front of me [01:26:56] Speaker 1: does that sound about right [01:26:58] Matt McCabe: approximately [01:27:00] Speaker 1: and you've made a second phone call at 608 and 17 seconds does that sound about right [01:27:06] Matt McCabe: i did call her twice yes [01:27:08] Speaker 1: and both of those calls show in your extraction that they were answered in phone calls [01:27:14] Speaker ?: right [01:27:14] Matt McCabe: i don't have my extraction in front of me [01:27:17] Speaker 1: well you've been asked this question a bunch of times right you were asked this question at the other proceeding is that right [01:27:24] Matt McCabe: yes [01:27:25] Speaker ?: yes [01:27:25] Speaker 1: and [01:27:27] Matt McCabe: well if you have them i could see them here you were shown the phone records then [01:27:30] Speaker ?: yes [01:27:30] Speaker 1: okay and at that time you were confronted with the the fact that the phone records show a seven second call for 607 objection [01:27:40] Speaker ?: objection [01:27:41] Speaker 3: i'm going to strike the word confronted go ahead and ask i'll pick another go ahead and ask the question [01:27:45] Speaker 1: you were shown evidence that the 607 call lasted seven seconds [01:27:52] Matt McCabe: my sister never answered the phone [01:27:54] Speaker 1: okay i know you want to answer your own questions yeah i'd like you to answer my question were you shown records that showed the call lasted seven seconds [01:28:03] Matt McCabe: i cannot recall the exact record i was shown but i was shown a phone record [01:28:09] Speaker 1: okay and you were shown the same phone record showed that the 608 call lasted eight seconds right [01:28:16] Matt McCabe: again i don't have it in front of me [01:28:18] Speaker 1: does that sound about right [01:28:20] Matt McCabe: about right and there were a number of other calls that showed answered that weren't answered [01:28:24] Speaker 1: well we'll get to those in a minute so the two calls at 607 and 608 at least the records indicate about 15 seconds worth of open line time talk time seven seconds eight seconds right [01:28:38] Matt McCabe: you have the record in front of you i don't [01:28:42] Speaker 1: i'm just asking if you were in front of if you were there's that word again if you were shown records that established that based on your phone phone extraction your phone records the 607 call seven second call the 608 call was an eight second call right [01:28:57] Matt McCabe: i was shown records but i don't know exactly what what they were how long the call said because she never answered the phone regardless [01:29:07] Speaker 1: if you had my could share my phone record it would be very helpful do you recall it [01:29:22] Matt McCabe: i know i called my sister and i called my brother-in-law in the house i do not know the exact times [01:29:29] Speaker 1: you made a phone call to brian albert as well right [01:29:32] Matt McCabe: i believe so [01:29:33] Speaker 1: that was around 6 23 it was a few minutes after you had called nicole twice right correct and that call was not answered [01:29:42] Matt McCabe: none of them were answered [01:29:44] Speaker 1: but the record showed that that call was not answered as opposed to nicole's two calls right right [01:29:52] Matt McCabe: okay [01:29:53] Speaker 1: um the calls to nicole were deleted from your phone before you turned that phone into law enforcement weren't they [01:30:06] Matt McCabe: not by me [01:30:07] Speaker 1: by somebody else [01:30:08] Matt McCabe: i never deleted any calls when i willingly handed my phone over [01:30:14] Speaker 1: you claim that you didn't delete calls but you do know that your phone was forensically analyzed and those calls were in the deleted file folder correct [01:30:23] Matt McCabe: i have seen that but there were 20 calls all in a group that were all deleted so cherry picking a few makes it look a different way [01:30:31] Speaker 1: okay so we'll get to those i'm not sure i'm picking anything okay i'm asking you questions about the records [01:30:38] Matt McCabe: which i would love a copy of if i could see [01:30:40] Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a second i'm just going by your memory you've seen these records a bunch of times you've been you've been questioned about these records a bunch of times right yes okay so we know that you called at 607 608 or there else and about 623 two to nicole one to brian correct correct and you'll agree with me that notwithstanding those phone calls by the way did you leave voicemails no when did you hang up before they went to voicemail or was it into voicemail before you hung up [01:31:20] Matt McCabe: so it was a bit of a hysterical scene that morning and i was in a state of shock and i was just calling my sister and my brother-in-law they did not answer the phone i cannot tell you when i hung up because it was a hysterical scene i was in a state of shock everyone was running around and what seems to be forgotten is that my friend was lying there on the ground [01:31:41] Speaker 1: i don't think anybody's forgotten that um you in fact did not leave voicemails for any of those three calls did you [01:31:54] Matt McCabe: again i don't have my phone record in front of me [01:31:58] Speaker 1: that's because nicole didn't get any voicemails because the calls were answered right [01:32:03] Matt McCabe: the calls were not answered [01:32:05] Speaker 1: you do agree with me that brian and nicole albert brian albert being a police officer never came out of the house correct [01:32:18] Matt McCabe: neither did any neighbor neither did any neighbor [01:32:22] Speaker 1: i know you'd like to continue editorializing after the fact there's probably a time and a place for it this isn't it if you can answer my question i'd ask that you do that did brian albert come out of the house [01:32:35] Matt McCabe: no [01:32:36] Speaker 1: did nicole albert come out of the house no thank you how many of the initial police officers from henton police department who responded to the scene were you friends with [01:32:55] Matt McCabe: i was i would say i am friendly with mike lank he was a few five years older than me i knew him i knew him i knew him growing up if i saw him around town i would say hey how are you pretty much that's the extent [01:33:16] Speaker 1: anybody else other than mike lank that you're friends with [01:33:19] Matt McCabe: um not that i am friends with i knew of officer sean good but i wouldn't say i was friends with him i just knew who he was [01:33:28] Speaker 1: and you also knew that officer lank was very good friends with the albert family [01:33:33] Matt McCabe: good friends yes [01:33:35] Speaker 1: um you knew that mike lank and chris albert had a long time long standing friendship correct correct [01:33:42] Matt McCabe: correct [01:33:43] Speaker 1: uh you just indicated you also knew officer good is that right [01:33:46] Matt McCabe: didn't know him i said i knew of him [01:33:48] Speaker 1: okay uh with regard to names like sarah pelaney not so much [01:33:54] Matt McCabe: sarif um has a sister that's the same age as my sister but i had never to my knowledge met sarah [01:34:03] Speaker 1: and of all the officers who responded to the scene the two who actually went inside the albert home to talk to brian albert and others was in fact mike lank and officer good [01:34:16] Matt McCabe: i don't remember officer good in the house i only remember officer lank [01:34:23] Speaker 1: the reason you know that the reason you have a memory of what was happening inside the house is because you were allowed to actually go into that home correct correct [01:34:30] Speaker ?: correct [01:34:30] Speaker 1: correct and you went into that home before any of the officers went into the home is that right correct correct you were allowed to have private conversations with brian albert [01:34:38] Matt McCabe: i woke brian albert up [01:34:41] Speaker 1: were you allowed to have private conversations with brian albert yes and you were allowed to have private conversations with your sister nicole yes that was before the police ever went in to do any formal interviews of you brian or nicole correct [01:34:56] Matt McCabe: correct [01:34:58] Speaker 1: did you discuss in these private conversations how you three were going to answer any questions for the police when they were asked no did you talk about what you were going to say in any respect [01:35:09] Matt McCabe: we were in shock there was no no [01:35:12] Speaker 1: did you talk about what brian and nicole were going to say in their interviews with the police no did you give any did brian albert give you any advice as a police detective what you should do or say when you were interviewed no did he give you any advice as a police detective what you should do with your cell phone no uh did you did he tell you that the police might want to get a hold of your cell phone at some point no did you two discuss the calls that you made to nicole albert at 607 and 608 and the call that you made to brian albert at 623 no did you ever discuss the idea of potentially deleting any of those calls that were made that early morning [01:35:55] Matt McCabe: absolutely not [01:35:57] Speaker 1: would you tell us if you did [01:35:59] Matt McCabe: yes because i'm an honest and truthful person [01:36:02] Speaker 1: did you tell them which officers were outside i don't recall did you tell them that officer lank specifically when the alberts was outside [01:36:18] Matt McCabe: i don't recall [01:36:19] Speaker 1: and then your husband matt mccabe arrived at the scene correct correct he was allowed to come in the house as well right [01:36:27] Matt McCabe: i believe officer lank was in the house before matt came into the house [01:36:32] Speaker 1: and a little bit later that morning julie albert came over correct correct and by the way officer lank after just a few minutes then left the house correct correct [01:36:46] Matt McCabe: correct [01:36:47] Speaker 1: leading all the witnesses inside together [01:36:49] Matt McCabe: correct [01:36:50] Speaker 1: and i can't remember if i asked this question i just thought it out loud did julie albert come over [01:36:56] Matt McCabe: she did [01:36:57] Speaker 1: and then chris came over [01:36:59] Matt McCabe: yes [01:37:01] Speaker 1: even brian higgins came over correct these are all friends and family of yours correct [01:37:09] Matt McCabe: not brian higgins i had only met a handful of times [01:37:14] Speaker 1: but you consider him a friend [01:37:15] Matt McCabe: a friend a friend of brian alberts is how i would reference him fair enough [01:37:22] Speaker 1: so these are friends and family of brian albert correct and everyone was permitted to discuss the circumstances of the evening before the early morning hours with each other with no police there correct [01:37:39] Matt McCabe: i sat with my family in shock and horror [01:37:43] Speaker 1: were you allowed to discuss the circumstances of the night before or into the early morning hours amongst yourselves without any police presence yes or no [01:37:53] Matt McCabe: there was no reason for us to be allowed or not allowed we did nothing wrong [01:37:56] Speaker 1: can you understand my question did you get it [01:37:58] Matt McCabe: yes i understand your question [01:38:00] Speaker 1: can you answer it yes or no were you allowed that group of folks were you allowed to discuss the case without a police presence [01:38:06] Matt McCabe: yes [01:38:13] Speaker 1: okay so you listened during the that friends and family gathering you listened to what brian albert had to say correct correct [01:38:24] Matt McCabe: he didn't really say much [01:38:28] Speaker 1: he was able to listen to what you had to say [01:38:30] Matt McCabe: again you're creating a scene that didn't happen [01:38:33] Speaker 1: anything ms mccabe i'm asking some questions that you don't seem to want to answer objection your honor [01:38:38] Speaker 3: all right so let's ask a question and let's get an answer okay yes or no [01:38:42] Speaker 1: was brian albert there within your shot and you discussed your version of what had happened [01:38:50] Matt McCabe: i didn't discuss much i sat there in shock and horror so i spoke very little to be honest with you [01:38:56] Speaker 1: but when lulu you did speak he could hear yes and nicole could hear yes and chris albert could hear [01:39:02] Matt McCabe: chris came much later [01:39:03] Speaker 1: and your husband matt mccabe he could hear yes okay and then when chris is talking about what happened at waterfall you could hear and ryan could hear in other words everybody could hear everybody [01:39:13] Matt McCabe: chris came much later i when chris came i was almost about to leave [01:39:19] Speaker 1: i'm guessing that the topic of what had happened was still on everybody's mind [01:39:24] Matt McCabe: everybody was trying to figure out what had happened [01:39:27] Speaker 1: and you're discussing it discussing it amongst yourselves that's my point [01:39:31] Matt McCabe: with my sister and my brother-in-law and my husband correct [01:39:41] Speaker 1: before you left you said you were about to leave before you left another albert came over to the house correct [01:39:50] Matt McCabe: i don't recall seeing him kevin albert [01:39:55] Speaker 1: how'd you know i was talking about kevin albert [01:39:57] Matt McCabe: because you said another albert came over and i was six brothers i was told later it was kevin i see [01:40:03] Speaker 1: so you believed that kevin was not there when you were still there [01:40:07] Matt McCabe: i was in a state of shock he may have walked in i don't remember i don't remember it no he could have been absolutely and you knew he was a canton police officer yes [01:40:18] Speaker 1: you had already gotten a call from michael proctor hadn't you yes he told you he wanted to speak with you correct so you knew at that point that the massachusetts state police troopers had taken over the investigation of the case correct correct correct did michael proctor tell you that canton the canton police department had been recused from the case objection [01:40:36] Speaker 3: sustained [01:40:37] Speaker 1: let me ask it a different way did you have knowledge in any way take former questions at that point that canton police department was not supposed to be involved in the case objection [01:40:46] Speaker 3: sustained [01:40:47] Speaker 1: speaking of trooper proctor when you first interviewed uh with him that was january 29th 2022 we've already discussed that a little bit today correct correct and he was taking notes uh while you were interviewing with him is that right i believe so you mentioned on friday your observations of the taillight uh that day is that right correct uh you told mr lally that you indicated that uh the taillight looked and you saw it just like the photograph that he showed you correct [01:41:22] Matt McCabe: i told him it was hard to make out and with the snow on it but it looked in the picture that he showed [01:41:28] Speaker 1: he showed you a second photo a close-up basically of the of the suv in a sally bar is that right yes and you said yeah that's the condition of the taillight correct yes um you also told officer i'm sorry trooper proctor about your observations of the taillight on that same day the 29th right correct that's literally the same day that you saw the taillight correct correct just a few hours later is that right correct and what you told trooper proctor that day was that you quote saw a crack in it end quote correct [01:42:03] Matt McCabe: i told him that the taillight was cracked [01:42:06] Speaker 1: that's what he said i said i'm telling you i said the taillight was cracked that's what he said i said i'm telling you i said the taillight was cracked this is another example of him screwing up your words correct you'd have to ask trooper proctor [01:42:18] Matt McCabe: so i'm asking you did you say i saw a crack in it [01:42:25] Speaker 1: i said the taillight was cracked [01:42:27] Matt McCabe: so you didn't say i saw a crack in it right [01:42:33] Speaker 1: i said the taillight was cracked did you say i saw a crack in it [01:42:38] Matt McCabe: i said the taillight was cracked [01:42:40] Speaker 1: so you didn't say i saw a crack in it right [01:42:45] Matt McCabe: i said the taillight was cracked [01:42:48] Speaker 1: the photograph that you were shown with the court's permission it's exhibit 92 i believe from friday okay may i have your arm [01:43:01] Speaker 3: yes [01:43:02] Speaker 1: you see that photograph you were shown this photograph on friday yeah does that look like does it look like it has a crack in it [01:43:09] Matt McCabe: it's cracked yes yes [01:43:12] Speaker 1: it's actually completely missing [01:43:15] Matt McCabe: yeah and i believe in one of the reports one of the many reports it will say that i said it was cracked and missing pieces right [01:43:23] Speaker 1: does that look like it's cracked and missing pieces or does that look like the entirety of the taillight is basically gone [01:43:30] Matt McCabe: again in that picture there are the red pieces there are some of it still there so it was cracked and missing in a state of shock that was my description [01:43:39] Speaker 1: got it so in a state of shock you said there was a crack in it no [01:43:43] Matt McCabe: hours after i said it was cracked i never said there was a crack in it [01:43:49] Speaker 1: so if trooper proctor wrote that down that would be an example of him getting your words wrong yet again [01:43:56] Speaker 3: objection [01:43:57] Speaker ?: right [01:43:58] Speaker 3: that's been answered let's move along please [01:44:00] Speaker 1: that's okay for that thank you your honor okay i want to get back to january 29th uh that that interview with trooper proctor after this interview with michael link you eventually made it made your way back to your house is that right yes you went with your husband matt [01:44:23] Matt McCabe: yes [01:44:24] Speaker 1: and you knew that trooper proctor was going to show up and interview you and matt mr mccade correct [01:44:30] Matt McCabe: on the phone he asked he wanted to speak with me he said yes so i wasn't aware he asked to speak with me i wasn't aware if he was going to speak with matt [01:44:40] Speaker 1: okay uh you were at least aware that you were going to be interviewed correct you told brian albert trooper proctor was planning on interviewing you as well [01:44:49] Matt McCabe: correct correct [01:44:51] Speaker 1: before trooper proctor showed up to conduct that interview at your house brian albert actually showed up at your house correct correct so brian albert made sure that he was in your home before trooper proctor made it to your house correct objection brian albert was in your home before trooper proctor was in your home is that right [01:45:24] Matt McCabe: i am not sure who arrived first [01:45:27] Speaker 1: but he was there when you were interviewed wasn't he [01:45:29] Matt McCabe: he was upstairs yes [01:45:31] Speaker 1: and you believe of course with that statement he didn't hear anything about what was going to happen right 100 he didn't hear anything about the interview [01:45:43] Matt McCabe: no i don't think he could hear it from where he was [01:45:45] Speaker 1: but you knew he was just a few feet away [01:45:49] Matt McCabe: i knew he was up in my bedroom [01:45:51] Speaker 1: we've talked a little bit about your call records and i want to i want to pivot for a second and ask you about those call records um this is exhibit 90 don't know if you had a coach yes do you recognize that document i do yes you were showing this document last week is that right correct uh this is a forensic extraction report of john o'keefe's cell phone that you were showing on friday right correct um you acknowledge that it's an accurate report of calls found on john's phone between you and him is that right i believe so yes okay and this shows the calls that you made to john's phone or you received from john's phone on or between or at or between [01:46:42] Speaker ?: or at or between [01:46:42] Speaker 1: or at or between 12 14 a.m. and 12 50 a.m. i want to direct your attention to those time frames correct correct all right i want to start at the at the bottom and it may go in reverse chronological order okay i think it does at 12 14 it shows that you called john o'keefe and that call was answered is that right yeah correct at 12 18 a.m. it shows that john o'keefe called your phone and that was answered as well [01:47:08] Matt McCabe: correct [01:47:09] Speaker 1: and then at 12 29 a.m. you also called john o'keefe's phone and y'all had a short conversation as well is that right no that the record shows unknown correct in terms of whether it was missed or answered [01:47:34] Matt McCabe: excuse me can you repeat that [01:47:37] Speaker 1: sure the 12 29 i want to concentrate on the 12 29 a.m. call [01:47:41] Matt McCabe: okay [01:47:42] Speaker 1: that one in the celebrate extraction it shows in terms of whether the call was answered or not the status is unknown correct it's on the last page [01:47:54] Matt McCabe: yeah [01:47:55] Speaker 1: second from the second row from the top [01:47:57] Matt McCabe: a 12 29 unknown yes [01:48:00] Speaker 1: unknown um however you've already acknowledged that y'all did have a short conversation on that 229 no [01:48:08] Matt McCabe: no we didn't speak at 229 we spoke at we spoke at 12 14 and we spoke at 12 18 we never spoke at 12 29 [01:48:18] Speaker 1: so you're indicating uh that 12 29 call was either missed or otherwise went to voicemail something the 12 29 yes [01:48:28] Matt McCabe: okay [01:48:29] Speaker 1: um i want to show you a document well let me ask it this way according to this there were six more calls um between your your phone and john o'kee's phone correct correct one two three five six and that's before or that's up to 12 50 a.m. is that right correct [01:48:58] Matt McCabe: correct [01:48:59] Speaker 1: i'd like to show you another document i'd like to show you another document i don't know if i can approach briefly may i yes [01:49:10] Speaker 3: thank you i'll take uh [01:49:12] Speaker 1: so we don't get mixed up i'll take the exhibit and i'll be back okay thank you i want to show you one more document that you weren't shown on friday do you recognize this one [01:49:30] Matt McCabe: no [01:49:31] Speaker 1: okay if you look where it indicates on the left column i'm just putting my thumb here okay column the msisdn user there's a number that ends there 0142 sorry 0142 [01:49:53] Speaker 3: you want to make a approach yes [01:49:56] Speaker 1: so i'm going to answer this question before we approach [01:49:59] Speaker 3: i have no idea what we're approaching about this document yes why don't we just go up there sure may i have that please i know you need to look at it [01:50:10] Speaker ?: thank you [01:50:11] Matt McCabe: you're welcome [01:50:12] Speaker 1: uh if you look on the left column mccabe yes uh you'll see something that says apple id [01:50:20] Matt McCabe: yes [01:50:21] Speaker 1: look to the right of it do you recognize that unredacted portion i don't want you to read it out or anything you recognize that yes whose apple id is that [01:50:28] Matt McCabe: that's mine [01:50:29] Speaker ?: that's mine [01:50:29] Speaker 1: okay if you look um six lines below that there's a full phone number again don't leave the phone number out tell me if you recognize it i do [01:50:41] Speaker ?: whose is that [01:50:41] Speaker 1: that's mine [01:50:42] Matt McCabe: okay [01:50:43] Speaker 1: may i call your honor yes i'll take the unredacted copy back [01:50:47] Speaker ?: okay [01:50:47] Speaker 1: so we don't get it mixed up [01:50:48] Speaker ?: okay [01:50:48] Speaker 1: so we don't get it mixed up does this appear to be uh cell bright extraction of your phone records and your apple id is your apple id [01:50:58] Speaker ?: yes [01:50:59] Speaker 1: okay um and you recognize this without telling me what it is you recognize that phone number as your phone number back at the time and the apple id back at the time yes [01:51:09] Speaker ?: yes [01:51:09] Speaker 1: associated with the phone you've been turned in to law enforcement correct correct you've just looked at the extraction report for john o'keefe's phone and you saw those calls between your phone and john o'keefe's phone after going from 1214 after that all the way up to 1250 correct correct correct [01:51:33] Matt McCabe: correct [01:51:35] Speaker 1: take a look at the last couple of pages page three and four of your own cell phone extraction report and tell me if you see a single call listed between you and john o'keefe for january 29th between 1214 and 1250 [01:51:51] Matt McCabe: there are calls to a number that i'm assuming is john i'm just not sure not sure um i see a call wait a minute this report has times everywhere right [01:52:16] Speaker 1: it's chronological except for the calls that were deleted you see a call at 552 to john o'keefe's phone [01:52:24] Matt McCabe: i see a call at 552 yes [01:52:28] Speaker 1: but there is not a single call before 552 am between 1214 and 1250 am is that right not one [01:52:42] Matt McCabe: i'm just trying to say that it goes from 721 to 552 to 733 to 749 there's no order they're out of order i understand that but if you look at every one of the entries there's not a single entry for 1214 1218 or any of the subsequent 1229 any of the subsequent phone calls that are all shown on john o'keefe's phone extraction [01:53:12] Speaker 1: do you agree with that [01:53:27] Speaker ?: correct may i approach yes thank you [01:53:31] Speaker 3: thank you [01:53:32] Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is according to those celebrate records and that extraction from your own phone every one of the calls that you made to john o'kee's phone between 1229 and i'm sorry between 1214 and 1250 am was deleted and unrecovered correct i didn't understand that report and i'm not an expert when you compare the two you saw a bunch of calls on john o'kee's phone right you know he couldn't have deleted them they passed away right correct you saw your cell phone extraction which is the handshake for john o'kee's phone and all your calls are missing right objection [01:54:25] Matt McCabe: can you can you answer that question i'm confused that paper i don't understand it it was vague there were numbers there were calls everywhere there was a number of missing calls [01:54:36] Speaker 1: there's a bunch of missing calls right you didn't see any of the calls that were reflected on john o'kee's phone is that right yes or no they're not there [01:54:45] Matt McCabe: a lot of calls are missing i'm not really even sure what's there because the numbers are all it's all redacted [01:54:51] Speaker 1: so the the you were not seeing any redacted calls [01:54:56] Matt McCabe: the page you just had in front of me was redacted [01:55:00] Speaker 1: it's now an exhibit your personal information was redacted none of the calls were redacted now [01:55:08] Matt McCabe: the numbers i don't know people's phone numbers i just have them as contacts [01:55:13] Speaker 1: miss mccabe you just said a second ago we could do this all day long or we could just make it simple the fact of the matter is that report did not show any of the calls that john o'keefe's phone report showed correct from 12:14 to 12:50 [01:55:26] Matt McCabe: i believe there was one on there [01:55:28] Speaker 1: 5:52 that's the next morning ma'am right [01:55:32] Matt McCabe: were there other calls in that time period on the celebrate [01:55:36] Speaker 1: you just said there weren't you just looked at it [01:55:39] Matt McCabe: i've told you that that celebrate report was extremely hard to read right [01:55:44] Speaker 1: the fact is there are no calls on your own phone extraction between you and john o'keefe between 12:14 and 12:50 would you just agree with that at least on that report jackson you're on [01:55:55] Speaker 3: sustained [01:55:56] Speaker 1: the fact is that you deleted your call record before you turned your phone in didn't you miss mccabe that's what that report shows [01:56:05] Matt McCabe: absolutely not [01:56:06] Speaker 1: you sanitized your phone because you didn't want the police to know who you had been calling or the fact that you had been calling john o'keefe's phone incessantly correct incorrect [01:56:16] Matt McCabe: incorrect i willingly turned over my phone [01:56:19] Speaker 1: after you deleted your phone call logs correct absolutely not what date did you turn your phone over [01:56:26] Speaker ?: okay [01:56:27] Matt McCabe: possibly february 3rd how many days after this incident was that [01:56:36] Speaker 1: four or five so you had plenty of time to talk to that friends and family group and ultimately decide to delete your phone calls correct [01:56:50] Speaker 3: jackson sustained [01:56:52] Speaker 1: did you ever have any group chats with family members who are witnesses in this case yes [01:56:58] Matt McCabe: may i approach on [01:57:01] Speaker 1: yes well mr lally is looking through that packet can i just ask uh to make sure the record is clear did you delete any of your calls before you turn your phone into law enforcement [01:57:13] Matt McCabe: i spoke with the two officers that i handed my phone over to and i asked if i could delete the personal conversations with my daughters and they said absolutely yes that i could [01:57:25] Speaker 1: so other than calls with your daughters that you deleted did you delete any other calls on your phone at all [01:57:32] Matt McCabe: they would text message it was actually text messages with my daughters that i deleted and that was all i deleted [01:57:38] Speaker 1: did you delete any phone calls [01:57:40] Matt McCabe: i do not recall deleting any phone calls at all i would have no reason to delete anything [01:57:50] Speaker 1: well that's very different than i didn't delete any phone calls i do not remember deleting phone calls means you might have [01:57:58] Matt McCabe: in day to day life people delete things but i do not recall deleting any phone calls [01:58:04] Speaker 1: in day to day life did you delete any of the calls to john o'keefe no did you delete any of your calls with nicole albert [01:58:16] Matt McCabe: no [01:58:17] Speaker 1: did you delete any of your calls with brian albert no with chris albert no with julie albert [01:58:24] Matt McCabe: no colin albert [01:58:26] Speaker 1: no with any of the witnesses in this case did you delete any calls before you turn that phone over [01:58:31] Matt McCabe: no no no [01:58:34] Speaker 1: may i appreciate that yes Ms. McCabe i'm handing you a packet of documents it appears to be about 10 pages long do you recognize what's in those documents [01:58:48] Matt McCabe: yes [01:58:49] Speaker 1: you indicated already that you were part of a group chat with certain members of your family and friends correct did that group chat i'm most interested in the group chat between yourself nicole albert brian albert matt mccabe on or around that group chat starting on or around february 1st 2022 okay does that look like a true and accurate reflection of the text messages between or certain of the text messages between and among that group [01:59:19] Matt McCabe: yes the one i've the ones i've seen yes can you just tell me what page you're on i'm sorry of course your honor [01:59:25] Speaker 1: the bait stamp number [01:59:26] Speaker 3: 21.8 [01:59:27] Speaker 1: okay thank you start thank you and they should go relatively chronologically your honor page by page [01:59:34] Speaker ?: okay [01:59:34] Speaker 1: on february 1st 2022 around 2:15 in the afternoon on this group chat did you receive a message from your husband on the group that's this is on page 2148 that should be the middle bubble the middle and the bottom bubble quote Julie said channel 4 is in D.E. you see that yes and the response from Matt mccabe is eating i assume quote ask chris to ask some questions tell them the guy never went in the house in quote you see that yes you look at the next page the top [02:00:06] Speaker ?: 149 [02:00:06] Speaker 1: there's a one word answer from brian albert mm-hmm [02:00:11] Speaker ?: what is that answer exactly [02:00:11] Speaker 1: does it appear to you from this chat that matt mccabe was directing witnesses to the office to ask some questions to ask some questions tell them the guy never went in the house in quote you see that yes you look at the next page the top 149 [02:00:27] Matt McCabe: there's a one word answer from brian albert [02:00:28] Speaker ?: mm-hmm what is that answer exactly [02:00:31] Speaker 1: does it appear to you from this chat that Matt mccabe was directing witnesses to the office directing witnesses specifically chris albert what to say to the news media objection [02:00:45] Speaker 3: i'll allow that is that what you're seeing [02:00:49] Matt McCabe: that is not how i would understand this [02:00:52] Speaker 1: he never went in the tell them he never went in the house was the story that had been conducted between and among this group of people on this chat correct objection i'll allow that [02:01:03] Matt McCabe: no john never went in the house it wasn't a story it was the truth and it is the truth [02:01:10] Speaker 1: just like she said i hit it correct so according to this chat at least the very base level this is one witness telling another witness to give certain information to the media that could be useful to the group correct tell them the guy never went in the house right objection sustained matt mccabe was directing chris albert chris albert wasn't even at the house was he [02:01:43] Speaker ?: chris albert was not at the house no [02:01:44] Speaker 1: but this chat is mike i'm sorry matt mccabe your husband telling chris albert who was never at the house and would have no personal knowledge of what happened at the house to specifically say the guy never came in the house the guy by the way being john by the way being jones [02:02:02] Speaker ?: right [02:02:03] Matt McCabe: that's what he wrote [02:02:07] Speaker 1: does that sound to you a little bit like collusion objection sistine at some point you sought out uh Carrie roberts' cell phone number shortly after the 29th or maybe not maybe on the 29th correct correct you didn't have her cell number in your phone no one of your primary concerns was to make sure that you got in contact with Carrie roberts before the days in right [02:02:42] Matt McCabe: i wanted to speak to Carrie as she was on her way to the hospital and i wanted to check in on john [02:02:49] Speaker 1: one of your primary concerns miss mccabe was that you wanted to make sure you got a hold of Carrie roberts and had communication with her before the end of the day [02:02:59] Matt McCabe: it had nothing to do with getting in touch with her by the end of the day it was a friend reaching out wondering how her friend was doing who was just taken off the front lawn [02:03:09] Speaker 1: on the 29th [02:03:11] Speaker ?: on the 29th yes [02:03:13] Speaker 1: so before the end of the day miss mccabe you can do this all day long before the end of the day you were trying to get a hold of Carrie roberts correct [02:03:22] Matt McCabe: immediately in the morning i wanted to get in touch with her right [02:03:26] Speaker ?: right [02:03:26] Speaker 1: so you sought out her phone number first you tried my client Karen Reed correct correct but then you found another source for that information is that right [02:03:35] Matt McCabe: correct [02:03:36] Speaker 1: and you said just a second ago you were claimed that you needed that information because you were you knew that she was on the way to see John O'Keeffe's parents [02:03:45] Matt McCabe: she was picking them up [02:03:47] Speaker 1: um and you wanted to check on them correct you've been friends with the O'Keeffe family for years haven't you [02:03:55] Matt McCabe: correct [02:03:56] Speaker 1: so you didn't have a need to get Carrie roberts phone number did you [02:04:01] Matt McCabe: i wanted to speak with Carrie see how she was doing i was not going to call peg [02:04:07] Speaker 1: you had her phone number didn't you i do yes so if you wanted to check on somebody you could have just called her [02:04:15] Matt McCabe: i was not going to call Peg O'Keeffe on the way to see her son at the hospital to check on your friend that was just too much i wanted to ask Carrie i didn't i'm sure she was boggled down and probably did not want to speak with anyone it was a simple thing i made sure i got Carrie roberts number so i could check in and see how John was doing also we had just been through an extremely traumatic event together there's nothing evil here [02:04:45] Speaker 1: i wanted to make sure that you control her story as she left your your site correct [02:04:55] Matt McCabe: absolutely not [02:04:57] Speaker 1: did you take any steps whatsoever any steps whatsoever to influence Carrie roberts's statements [02:05:06] Matt McCabe: no [02:05:10] Speaker 1: because that would be collusion wouldn't it [02:05:12] Speaker 3: jack sustained [02:05:15] Speaker 1: did you write a text to the group including brian albert nicole albert and matt mccabe i'm sorry where you inform them that quote and this is your honor on page 40 i'm sorry 21 58 where you inform them quote Carrie is here going over timeline end quote correct so you reported back to brian nicole and matt that Carrie was where [02:05:42] Matt McCabe: she came over my house [02:05:44] Speaker 1: and you two sat down and went over a quote timeline together [02:05:48] Matt McCabe: Peggy spoke to Carrie [02:05:50] Speaker 1: so no i didn't ask about Peggy [02:05:52] Matt McCabe: well that's where the timeline started at [02:05:55] Speaker 1: did you ask Carrie or did Carrie come over show up at your house and quote unquote go over a timeline [02:06:03] Matt McCabe: Carrie showed up asking to sit down with me to do a timeline so we would remember everything that had happened [02:06:10] Speaker 1: and you wanted to be super helpful about that right Jackson here on him ask it differently sure you wanted to be helpful to Carrie roberts [02:06:20] Matt McCabe: the two of us were trying to figure out what had happened to our friend [02:06:24] Speaker 1: and so you made sure that you created and drafted with Carrie roberts a timeline for her correct [02:06:31] Matt McCabe: i didn't make sure of anything she was the one that asked me to do it [02:06:34] Speaker 1: and not only did you create a timeline you then reported back to your group ryan albert nicole albert matt mccabe that she was creating this timeline with you on february 1st 2022 isn't that right [02:06:51] Matt McCabe: yes [02:06:58] Speaker 1: after you created or drafted this timeline with Carrie she actually sat for an interview with the police did she not [02:07:08] Speaker 5: um [02:07:09] Speaker 1: that's not in the uh chats i'm just asking she sat down for an interview with the police didn't she [02:07:15] Matt McCabe: when [02:07:16] Speaker 1: you tell me that's my question [02:07:18] Matt McCabe: i'm not sure of when you're talking about [02:07:20] Speaker 1: okay let's start over [02:07:21] Matt McCabe: yes [02:07:22] Speaker 1: after this timeline was created on february 1st mm-hmm and at some point they're after kerry roberts conducted a formal interview with the police about this case correct [02:07:32] Matt McCabe: do you have the report of that date [02:07:36] Speaker 1: we're sort of bearing the lead she did the interview in your living room ma'am she did the interview in your living room ma'am [02:07:45] Speaker ?: right [02:07:45] Matt McCabe: there was on tuesday two officers came to the house and she sat in the other room and spoke with them so [02:07:55] Speaker 1: using my question she did the interview at your house oh [02:08:02] Matt McCabe: they came to my house to interview me and she happened to be there so they asked if they could speak with her also okay [02:08:10] Speaker 1: did she or did she not do an interview at your house did yes that wasn't that hard you were present for that interview weren't you [02:08:24] Matt McCabe: i was eating dinner [02:08:26] Speaker 1: you were present for the interview miss mccabe [02:08:28] Matt McCabe: i was in the house yes [02:08:30] Speaker 1: and you listened to that interview didn't you [02:08:33] Matt McCabe: no i did not [02:08:34] Speaker 1: you made sure you gave kerry roberts everything she needed for that interview correct quote everything she might need for that interview didn't you [02:08:45] Matt McCabe: and where is this that you're quoting from i'm asking you oh i'm sorry when you quoted i thought it was in here i apologize [02:08:52] Speaker 1: we'll get to it in a second did you tell her everything that you wanted her to say [02:08:57] Matt McCabe: no i did not [02:08:59] Speaker 1: did you in any way attempt to influence her testimony before she gave that interview in your living room [02:09:04] Matt McCabe: absolutely not kerry is her own person [02:09:07] Speaker 1: but then you did report your pro her progress to the albert and mccabe group in that group chat didn't you [02:09:16] Matt McCabe: can you show me where please sure [02:09:19] Speaker 1: is it true that in a group text with brian albert nicole albert matt mccabe you wrote and this is on page 2159 quote [02:09:31] Speaker ?: quote [02:09:31] Speaker 1: and we handed carry sorry and handed phone to carry remember that i see that yes and the very next text is from you telling the group she's telling him everything in all caps two exclamation points yes and then you went on to say at 2 55 p.m. basically the same moment quote quote [02:09:48] Speaker ?: quote all the stuff end quote [02:09:48] Speaker 1: correct correct correct so when you said a couple of minutes ago that you weren't listening to what she was saying that was a lie wasn't it we're talking about two different interviews i'm talking about when the officers came to my house and spoke to her there you're saying that i handed the phone over so that would be a different interview [02:10:09] Matt McCabe: mccabe this is on february 1st at 2 55 i wasn't there you were there she was in your house on february 1st giving an interview to the police wasn't she one day she was there giving an interview to the police and while she was there [02:10:20] Speaker 1: but i do not believe it was at 2 55 it was later in the evening so i think you might have to tell you that i was at 2 255 i was in the evening so i think you might have to tell me that i was at 2 255 it was later in the evening so i think you might have two events confused either way whether she was on the phone with the police or sitting there in your living room with the police you were listening to her and reporting back to the group she's telling them everything [02:10:51] Matt McCabe: the one no it's not correct the one that she did with the police she did in the other room and the one she did on the phone i said she's telling them everything because carrie is an extremely blunt person and she was giving personal feelings about the situation and i was horrified by it to the police to the police and you're listening [02:11:15] Speaker 1: i heard a statement she said that horrified me and then you're reporting it back to the group weren't you [02:11:22] Matt McCabe: that one thing she stated i reported back to the group yes so you're listening in on a police interview [02:11:29] Speaker 1: correct it was a phone call one side of it right it was a phone call you're listening in on a police interview one side of it correct you're eavesdropping on that interview correct i'm sitting with her and she's taking the call and then you're reporting that interview back or her success in that interview in your mind back to the group involving brian albert nicole albert and matt mccabe isn't that what you're doing objection [02:11:54] Matt McCabe: i'll allow it i absolutely not that is not how it went i was horrified because carrie's a blunt person not like me and she had made a comment about miss reed and mr o'keefe's relationship and i was shocked and horrified that she said it the way that she did [02:12:10] Speaker 1: and you're so shocked and horrified i said oh my god she's telling them everything yes you decided it was so important to you to report that back to brian albert [02:12:20] Matt McCabe: i was i was horrified so you reported that back yes i said she told them everything [02:12:26] Speaker 1: when you were first confronted with these messages at a separate proceeding in june of 2023 you claimed that you couldn't remember what that exchange was about correct correct and now you just all of a sudden have this newfound memory of exactly what that text message was referring to correct objection [02:12:46] Matt McCabe: i'll allow it yes because carrie roberts said a statement and a jog i said oh my god that's what i meant when i said she said everything [02:12:54] Speaker 1: when did she say this statement [02:12:56] Matt McCabe: uh probably in the fall she has sent me this statement a few times in reference to karen [02:13:02] Speaker 1: roberts are still coordinating your statements together oh no we're not it's just an opinion she she has of miss reed and all of a sudden that became your quote everything all this stuff [02:13:16] Matt McCabe: it didn't just become it i forgot that i had written it and one day carrie made the statement and i'm sure it happens to everyone you forget something and then you're like oh my god that's what it was i'm not sure if that happens to everyone objection [02:13:30] Speaker 1: sustained let me ask you a different question when you were asked under oath a year ago when it was things were fresher in your mind you were asked specifically what she was referring what you were referring to and your answer was i have no idea correct correct because you didn't want to tell them that you had coordinated your statement with carrie roberts isn't that right [02:13:54] Matt McCabe: no that is not right i did not remember what it was [02:13:56] Speaker 1: went on to be asked specifically uh do you know who you were referring to and you said maybe carrie maybe i'm talking to carrie and the question was but you don't recall this text and your answer was i don't remember that's what you testified to a year ago correct correct but now you're talking about some memory of a disparaging comment that carrie roberts has about my client and that's the everything in your mind [02:14:22] Matt McCabe: yes the things that she was saying [02:14:26] Speaker 1: quite obviously what you were referring to in that text in real time miss mccabe was that carrie roberts was telling the police quote everything that you had laid out for her in this timeline meeting you had with her correct [02:14:42] Speaker 3: objection so it sustained as to that form you can ask that question in a proper way [02:14:48] Speaker 1: the everything you referred to in that text in real time was what you had what you had worked out with carrie in that timeline meeting wasn't it [02:15:00] Matt McCabe: correct incorrect we never worked together to come up with the story we have the facts and the everything was a comment about your client [02:15:12] Speaker 1: you went on in your group chat with brian albert nicole albert matt mccade to give running updates running updates about whether or not carrie roberts was actually following the script correct incorrect there was no script there was no script there was no script that you had to do it [02:15:40] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:15:42] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:15:48] Speaker 3: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:15:52] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:15:56] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:07] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:08] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:13] Speaker 3: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:15] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:17] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:20] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it There was no script that you had to do it [02:16:25] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:30] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:31] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:40] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:41] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:46] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:49] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:50] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:51] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:16:59] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:00] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:01] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:09] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:10] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:13] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:16] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:18] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:28] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:29] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:40] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:41] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:17:47] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:01] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:01] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:03] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:11] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:16] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:17] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:18] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:21] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:23] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:24] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:40] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:42] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:48] Speaker 3: there was no script that you had to do it it was no script that you had to do it [02:18:50] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:18:53] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:00] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:05] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:06] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:18] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:20] Speaker ?: there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:21] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:25] Speaker 3: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:28] Speaker 1: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it [02:19:37] Matt McCabe: there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it there was no script that you had to do it I'm saying there's a possibility if I'm sitting in this room eating dinner and someone's in another room talking you can hear bits and pieces was I eavesdropping no is there some big cover-up story no [02:19:57] Speaker 1: well why Ms. McCabe does your story does your testimony keep evolving a second ago you said you told this jury you said I couldn't hear a thing all I could hear was voices like muffled voices from the other room she's going on and on about something yeah and then when I confronted you with a text message where you said she's telling them everything now it's well I may have heard a couple of things [02:20:15] Matt McCabe: which is it no she was going on and on and on like she does and you're listening [02:20:20] Speaker 1: on and on and on like you do I was [02:20:23] Matt McCabe: probably hearing bits and pieces why was [02:20:30] Speaker 1: it so important to report back to the group that you were happy that Carrie that Carrie Roberts was saying quote everything objection we had both lost our [02:20:46] Matt McCabe: friend Carrie Roberts was in shock as was I in shock the two of us had all this information that just kept coming back to us and back to us and it was it's terrifying when you you go through an experience and you're in shock and Carrie was remembering things I was remembering things so I was happy for her that she was piecing it all together and I had pieced it all together because at the end of the day our friend was dead and we were trying to figure out what had happened to him together there was no direction we were all trying to figure out what had happened because that's what you do when you lose somebody you [02:21:32] Speaker 1: love were you happy for her or were you happy for you and Brian and Matt and Nicole [02:21:41] Matt McCabe: for me and for her because we were going through this together there was no conversation got the story out that [02:21:49] Speaker 1: you're trying to get out to Carrie [02:21:51] Matt McCabe: Roberts I'll allow that there is no there is no story there's facts and truth on this side there's no story the story that you've created is not the [02:22:02] Speaker 1: truth did I create I hit him I hit him or did you that's fact a fact that conveniently you didn't mention in your report to lank grand jury right that [02:22:16] Speaker 3: kind of fact Jackson that is the fact [02:22:20] Matt McCabe: I mentioned so in some reports it's [02:22:23] Speaker 1: there the fact is you wanted to keep very close tabs on Carrie Roberts Roberts didn't know January 29th if you look on page 22 23 did you text the group quote Carrie talked to cops and kept it simple in the quote yes okay it's becoming a habit for you to keep tabs on Carrie Roberts isn't it in the [02:23:03] Speaker 3: direction sustained [02:23:05] Speaker 1: you'll agree that over and over and over and over again you're reporting to this tight group Nicole Brian Albert your husband how Carrie's doing in her stories to the police aren't you over and over and over and over I am telling them what is [02:23:30] Matt McCabe: going on I wouldn't say it well let's count them was there four of them you're saying over and over and over and over over and over it's a bit extreme I see so [02:23:41] Speaker 1: you take issue with the way that I phrase over and over and over well it's [02:23:45] Matt McCabe: misleading I believe I see okay let me [02:23:47] Speaker 1: see if I can try this in a non misleading way okay okay so at least one of us I'll withdraw you consistently reported back to the group how Carrie Roberts was doing with the police didn't you I would update [02:24:08] Matt McCabe: them after Kelly Carrie saw and spoke to the police again we were all trying to figure out what had happened to John [02:24:16] Speaker 1: there's yet another text from Brian's wife Nicole on January 29th and this is on page 22 26 she says quote we'll get more info tomorrow don't want to text about it in quote I mean you texted right correct correct what's that about [02:24:45] Speaker 3: Jackson I'll allow it we decided that we [02:24:50] Matt McCabe: would talk on the phone my children look on my phone her children look on her phone we were working with the police I was sharing information and everything that had happened we didn't want it to leave our little circle because we were trying to figure out what happened and we're not going to go running around letting people see oh my gosh they think this might have happened or that might have happened it was nothing more than let's not text [02:25:20] Speaker 1: about it so you wanted to keep it in your words in your little circle correct [02:25:26] Matt McCabe: correct I didn't want it all out there what we had fought had happened I was going to let the police do their job [02:25:32] Speaker 1: so by definition the info that Nicole Albert was talking about that needed to be kept very tight very secret correct [02:25:42] Matt McCabe: correct we needed the police to do their job so we weren't going text and Nicole [02:25:49] Speaker 1: wanted her text and the group wanted their text to be kept secret and private isn't that right not secret and private [02:25:58] Matt McCabe: we just weren't going to communicate certain things over text did you give [02:26:03] Speaker 1: or did anybody give you any private information the next day on January 30 [02:26:12] Matt McCabe: didn't even give me private information [02:26:15] Speaker 1: so let me put it in context that text from Nicole Albert we'll get info we'll get more info tomorrow I don't want to text about it that was on the 29th right okay did you get additional info on the 30th the next day I have no idea did anything significant happen on January 30th in connection with this case any meetings any get-togethers I went to [02:26:43] Matt McCabe: the O'Keeffe's house other than that anything else on the way home Carrie Roberts daughter is good friends with Michael Lank so we dropped her off at Michael Lank's house and Mike's wife came out of the house him and Carrie are friends and she you know jumped in the car and was consoling Carrie and asks how the O'Keeffe's were doing and you know we talked to her [02:27:14] Speaker 1: so you pulled up to Michael Lank's house on the 30th that's never been reported has it I guess I never thought much of it I didn't meet I didn't [02:27:39] Matt McCabe: meet with Michael Lank I see so you [02:27:41] Speaker 1: pulled up in the car tell me about that again you pulled up in the car and what [02:27:43] Matt McCabe: happened and Lex her daughter went into the house okay and then you just drove away no Michael's wife came out of the house okay and y'all had a conversation [02:27:54] Speaker 1: about what she got in the car and was [02:27:57] Matt McCabe: her and Carrie are friends and she was checking on Carrie and you know just saying oh my god this is so crazy you know just checking in on the O'Keeffe's How long did that take? Well Carrie's a talker so it could have been an hour. [02:28:12] Speaker 1: Could have been an hour standing outside? [02:28:14] Matt McCabe: Sitting in the car. [02:28:15] Speaker 1: Sitting in the car on February 30th never came in the house? [02:28:19] Matt McCabe: Not February 30th. [02:28:21] Speaker 1: I'm sorry I said February 30th. January 30th. Never went in the house? [02:28:25] Matt McCabe: I might have ran in to go to the bathroom. [02:28:27] Speaker 1: It's the back end of a blizzard it's freezing cold outside. Sitting in the car for an hour? [02:28:32] Matt McCabe: The car was running Carrie and they were talking. It's her friend. [02:28:42] Speaker 1: Did you have any conversation before your testimony today with anybody about you going to Michael Lang's house on January 30th? Anybody? [02:28:56] Matt McCabe: Yes. [02:28:57] Speaker 1: Tell me about that. Who was it and when? [02:29:00] Matt McCabe: It was a couple of weeks ago at the DA's office. [02:29:04] Speaker 1: The DA's office had an interview with you, correct? Not an interview. [02:29:08] Matt McCabe: They just explained this process. [02:29:10] Speaker 1: I mean a conversation? How about that? [02:29:14] Matt McCabe: Yeah. [02:29:15] Speaker 1: Yes. The folks from the DA's office. Who'd you meet with? [02:29:19] Matt McCabe: Um, Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin, Steve Nelson, um, Trooper, Brian Tully. Um, I, I believe L.M. and another woman. I can't remember her name unfortunately. Someone from the DA's office? Yes. [02:29:44] Speaker 1: Billin? No. [02:29:46] Matt McCabe: Lynn Billin? [02:29:47] Speaker 1: No. [02:29:48] Matt McCabe: Um, she's here today. She works with Steve Nelson. Ah. [02:29:51] Speaker 1: But an employee of the DA's office. Yes. That sounds like a pretty big meeting. I wouldn't call it a big meeting. There was, what, five of them? [02:29:56] Speaker ?: How long did you, five of them and then you? [02:29:57] Matt McCabe: Uh, my daughter Allie came with me also. The meeting's getting bigger. Mm-hmm. [02:30:01] Speaker 1: Anybody else? No, we both went. [02:30:03] Matt McCabe: Was Allie in the room when you were, I'm going to say interviewed, but you take issue with every word I use, when you were talked to by the DA? [02:30:10] Speaker 1: Allie and I were both, um, in the room when they received, when they went over everything, you know, how this all works because this is all brand new to us. [02:30:18] Matt McCabe: And then they asked me to leave the room. [02:30:39] Speaker 1: Um, you were about to say, and I lost the end of that sentence, when they received, received what? [02:30:51] Matt McCabe: I didn't mean the word received. [02:30:54] Speaker 1: Did you receive anything? [02:30:55] Matt McCabe: No. I looked at my grand jury notes. [02:30:58] Speaker 1: Um, now, at this meeting, was anybody taking notes? [02:31:03] Speaker ?: No. [02:31:04] Speaker 1: You have a bunch of lawyers and DAs, and nobody has to go back in the room? Like, those? [02:31:10] Matt McCabe: I believe Mr. Lally had a number of folders on the table. [02:31:14] Speaker 1: You taking notes? [02:31:15] Matt McCabe: Any notes? I, no, I do not believe anyone was taking notes. It was a casual meeting to explain this process. [02:31:21] Speaker ?: Was that a meeting recorded in any way that you're aware of? [02:31:23] Matt McCabe: No. [02:31:24] Speaker 1: How long did the meeting last? [02:31:27] Matt McCabe: Allie and I were probably in the room, I don't know, approximately 20 minutes, then I left, and they spoke with her, and then I went back in, and they spoke with me. [02:31:37] Speaker 1: How long did they speak with you? [02:31:39] Matt McCabe: Honestly, maybe a half hour, hour. [02:31:42] Speaker 1: And during that half hour to an hour, did they go over with you what they expected your testimony to be? [02:31:48] Matt McCabe: They never spoke about what they expected my testimony to be. They just, um, showed me some pictures that might be shown. Um, I listened to the 911. [02:31:58] Speaker 1: What pictures? [02:31:59] Matt McCabe: Um, just of the house and how I'd be asked to, you know, show. Okay, we're gonna put a picture of the house and they'll have a laser. [02:32:06] Speaker 1: Okay, when we started this conversation, it was because you said, in answer to my question, was anything ever brought up to you about this meeting at Lang's house? Mm-hmm. You said yes. Mm-hmm. So, obviously, they did talk to you about your testimony. It wasn't just about the process, correct? [02:32:27] Matt McCabe: I was told, I asked what discovery had been turned in in regard to me. [02:32:34] Speaker 1: So, you wanted to prepare to make sure that you knew what you might be asked on cross-examination, correct? [02:32:42] Matt McCabe: I wanted to know what was coming. Yes. [02:32:45] Speaker 1: And you knew that one of the things was coming after this meet- Well, let me ask it a different way. During this meeting, did Mr. Lally tell you one of the things that's gonna be coming is you had an off-the-books meeting at Lang's house for 45 minutes? Did he tell you that? [02:32:58] Matt McCabe: No, that's not how I was told. [02:33:00] Speaker 1: Did he tell you that the defense had uncovered a report that established that you were actually at Michael Lang's house for 45 minutes that had never been reported to the defense or the prosecution before the phone extraction had been done? Did he tell you that? [02:33:25] Matt McCabe: I was told, I was asked, "Oh, were you at Michael Lang's on the 30th?" [02:33:29] Speaker 1: So, you've had a lot of time to come up with a story about why you were at Michael Lang's, correct? Objection. [02:33:37] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. [02:33:38] Matt McCabe: I didn't need time to make up a story because I have the truth of why we went. [02:33:43] Speaker 1: And the truth, according to you, is you pulled up at Michael Lang's house. The first responding officer and friends of the Albers had a meeting with him the next day that was never reported to anybody for any purpose. I just met with his wife out in the car while the car was running for 45 minutes to an hour. That's your story. [02:34:07] Matt McCabe: It's not a story. It's the truth. Carrie dropped her daughter off. The wife came out. Carrie is a talker. They started talking. A tragedy had happened the day before. [02:34:20] Speaker 1: It is interesting, would you not agree, that the day before, you have this off-the-boats meeting at Michael Lang's house. Nicole Albert says, we'll get more info tomorrow, meaning the very day you show up at Lang's house. [02:34:42] Matt McCabe: Again, I never spoke with Mike Lang at his house. It was not an off-the-books meeting. It was Carrie dropping her daughter at one of her good friend's house whose husband happens to be a Canton cop. That is what it is. That is the truth. A lot of coincidences. [02:35:01] Speaker 1: Do you agree? Jack. Jackson. The stand. By the way, what did Mr. Lally show you in respect of this issue about this meeting at Michael Lang's house? He showed me nothing. [02:35:23] Matt McCabe: He just told you about it? Brian Tully told me. [02:35:28] Speaker 1: Okay. What did Mr. Tully tell you, Trooper Tully, what exactly did he tell you at this meeting about this Michael Lang issue? [02:35:35] Matt McCabe: He said, did you go to Michael Lang's on January 30th? And at first I said, no, I've never been to his house. And then I thought about it and I said, oh my gosh, yes, I did go there. And that was the extent of the conversation. [02:35:51] Speaker 1: You said, yeah, I did go there and he didn't ask to follow up like, what the heck were you doing at Michael Lang's house the day after this issue? Josh. I'll allow it. He didn't ask to follow up like that? I do not believe he did. So, Trooper Tully, had you come down for an interview, he confronted you with a fact that had never been disclosed before to wit. You showed up at Michael Lang's house and when you said, yeah, oh yeah, hang on, I think your words were, oh my gosh, yeah, I think I did go there. And he didn't ask a follow up question? [02:36:25] Speaker ?: He was there. You're spinning all of this. [02:36:25] Speaker 1: Ma'am, I do a lot of things. [02:36:26] Speaker ?: Yeah. [02:36:27] Matt McCabe: I don't spin. There's a judge here to make sure that I don't spin. [02:36:29] Speaker ?: I'm asking you a question. [02:36:30] Matt McCabe: It's very direct. I do not believe he asked me a follow up question. So that was the end of that conversation about Michael Lang, correct? Correct. [02:36:34] Speaker 1: Mr. Lally didn't have any follow up questions? I don't believe Mr. Lally was in the room. Who else? [02:36:37] Speaker ?: I thought you said Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin. [02:36:37] Speaker 1: They were, they might not have been in the room at that time. I see. So Mr. Lally just happened to what, just saunter out? It was a different time. So Mr. Lally was in and out of the conversation? [02:36:42] Matt McCabe: I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. [02:36:45] Speaker 1: I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. [02:36:48] Matt McCabe: I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. [02:36:49] Speaker 1: I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. [02:36:51] Matt McCabe: I don't think I was in and out of the conversation. [02:36:54] Speaker 1: Who else? I thought you said Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin. [02:36:56] Matt McCabe: They were. They might not have been in the room at that time. I see. [02:36:59] Speaker 1: So Mr. Lally just happened to, what, just saunter out? [02:37:02] Matt McCabe: It was a different time. [02:37:03] Speaker 1: So Mr. Lally was in and out of the conversation? [02:37:07] Matt McCabe: Mr. Lally was not there when this conversation happened. [02:37:10] Speaker 1: Well, why is that? [02:37:15] Matt McCabe: Because I met with Brian Tully and he was not there. [02:37:19] Speaker 1: Was Brian Tully taking notes? [02:37:21] Matt McCabe: No. [02:37:22] Speaker ?: No. [02:37:23] Speaker 1: He's a state trooper interviewing a witness. He was- Objection. [02:37:27] Speaker 3: Sustained. [02:37:28] Speaker 1: The same report that has you at Michael Lang's house also has you picking up Nicole Albert going by 34 Fairview just before you went to Michael Lang's house. You aware of that? [02:37:48] Matt McCabe: We did not pick up Nicole Albert. [02:37:50] Speaker 1: So you went by 34 Fairview, then diverted, and right after you went by 34 Fairview, went directly over to Michael Lang's house. What was the reason that you stopped by 34 Fairview first? [02:38:02] Matt McCabe: We didn't stop by. Maybe Carrie slowed down, but we did not stop by 34. [02:38:07] Speaker 1: So you drove by, did a drive by 34 Fairview for Kittles? [02:38:12] Matt McCabe: No, that's how we get to Michael Lang's house. [02:38:16] Speaker 1: If the report shows that you actually stopped at 34 Fairview and then went to Michael Lang's house, would we have another oh my gosh moment? [02:38:23] Matt McCabe: Nope, no oh my gosh moment. We did not pick up Nicole Albert. [02:38:26] Speaker 1: Did anybody else go with you over to Michael Lang's house? [02:38:30] Matt McCabe: No, it was Carrie myself and her daughter. [02:38:32] Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Okay. We've talked in some detail about your calls with John O'Keefe on the morning of January 29th. Do you recall that? Yes. I want to focus your attention on or about or at or about 12:14 a.m. moving up to about 12:50 a.m. Do you ever have that time in mind? Yes. You've seen the cell right extraction from John O'Keefe's phone, which Mr. Lively showed you the other day, correct? Correct. And you went through the series of phone calls that were made and that appear on his extraction report, correct? Correct. I'm going to run through those time-wise very quickly just to orient you if I can and then I'll ask you some specific questions about it. There was a call at 12:14 a.m., correct? Correct. That was a call that you indicated was answered. You had a conversation with Mr. O'Keefe. Correct. There was a call at 12:18 and 47 seconds. That call also was answered by you. John O'Keefe made that phone call, correct? [02:39:42] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:39:43] Speaker 1: Then there's the 12:29 and 44 second call that you indicated was not answered. Correct. And that was a call to you, sorry, from you to him. Correct. There was a 12:41 call from you to John O'Keefe, correct? That was correct. There was a 12:41 and 54 second call from you to him. Correct. There was a 12:43 and 19 second call from you to him. Correct. 12:46 a.m. and 16 seconds from you to him. [02:40:12] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:40:13] Speaker 1: 12:47 and 52 seconds from you to him. Correct. 12:47 and 52 seconds from you to him. Correct. And 12:50 and 37 seconds from you to him. Correct. And 12:50 and 37 seconds from you to him. Correct? Correct. You saw in his extraction report that all of those calls after 12:50 18 were missed calls. Correct? [02:40:40] Matt McCabe: In the, his report that you showed me? Correct. [02:40:44] Speaker 1: In other words, the only two calls that were answered were the 12:14 and 12:18. Everything else was a missed call. I believe so. [02:40:50] Matt McCabe: I would have to refer to it again because I've seen so many reports. [02:40:55] Speaker 1: And this, the kid, according to the extraction reports that you've seen this morning, comparing yours to his, every single one of those calls was deleted off your phone. [02:41:10] Speaker ?: Correct? [02:41:11] Speaker 1: According to the reports. [02:41:13] Matt McCabe: According to that report. Yes. [02:41:15] Speaker 1: Let me ask you another question. Have you ever misplaced your phone? [02:41:23] Matt McCabe: Yes. [02:41:24] Speaker 1: In LA? Everybody doesn't, right? Yes. What's one of the first things you do if you're with your daughter or your husband or a friend and you're in your house and you misplaced your phone? What do you do? [02:41:37] Matt McCabe: I'll ask them to call my phone. [02:41:39] Speaker 1: Right. Even over and over and over, right? Correct. Could be as many as five, six, seven times. [02:41:49] Matt McCabe: Usually I hear it the first or second time. [02:41:52] Speaker 1: You're looking for a buzz or a ring. Isn't that right? [02:41:55] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:41:56] Speaker 1: And you might do that if you're searching for a missing phone. Correct? [02:42:00] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:42:01] Speaker 1: With regard to the calls that were deleted from your phone, you were asked about this under oath at another proceeding, weren't you? [02:42:13] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:42:14] Speaker 1: And you claimed that another proceeding that you had an explanation for all these missed calls starting at 1229, 1241, 1241, 1243, 1246, 1247, 1250. You have an explanation for that, right? [02:42:32] Matt McCabe: Can I see the report? [02:42:34] Speaker 1: I'm asking you about your prior testimony. And I'm asking about these calls. Yes. [02:42:40] Matt McCabe: I'm asking, can I see it, please? [02:42:42] Speaker 1: I'm asking you a different question. At this other proceeding, which you were under oath. Yes. Right? You explained that these calls were what? These missed calls, incessant missed calls. What were they? You used a word. As a matter of fact, it's two words. [02:42:58] Matt McCabe: I believe I used the word butt dials. [02:43:02] Speaker 1: You claimed that every one of these calls was a butt dial. Is that right? Yes. So according to you, you literally butt dialed John O'Keeffe's phone six times in the span of 19 minutes. Is that right? [02:43:20] Matt McCabe: I don't remember making any of those calls. So my assumption is I put my phone in my back pocket and that was it. [02:43:33] Speaker 1: When you dial someone by mistake, you hit a button, set your phone down, the phone has to be open. You'll hear that, right? Correct. Can't be locked. It takes several iterations of movement to get a phone open. Face ID or password, right? Correct. So when you hit the button by mistake, walk away. That's a butt dial. People call butt dials. What happens with the call? [02:43:59] Matt McCabe: I assume it goes to voicemail. [02:44:03] Speaker 1: Good assumption because that's exactly what it does, isn't it? You've had a phone for a lot of years, right? Yes. It rings and rings and rings until it goes to voicemail. [02:44:12] Matt McCabe: Correct. [02:44:13] Speaker 1: So in order to hang up that butt dial, you have to interact with that phone yet again, don't you? [02:44:21] Matt McCabe: Yes. [02:44:22] Speaker 1: So if you had six butt dials, you'd not only have to interact with the phone once to butt dial, John, you'd then have to interact with it every single time to turn off that phone ringer so it doesn't go to voicemail. Wouldn't you? [02:44:41] Matt McCabe: I suppose. [02:44:42] Speaker 1: Which makes 14 interfaces with that phone over the course of 19 minutes. Is that right? [02:44:53] Matt McCabe: I mean, I guess I don't have it all right in front of me, but there were also text messages I was sending. So, again, maybe I said, oh, shoot, I called them and then I turned it off. [02:45:06] Speaker 1: But your claim is you don't remember those incessant butt dials and those incessant hang-ups at all, correct? [02:45:13] Matt McCabe: I honestly don't. [02:45:16] Speaker 1: So you would have had to forget that you interacted with, by the way, you'll agree that the phone extraction showed that John will keep up. So that means you would have had to interact with that phone 14 times over the course of 19 minutes at the exact timeframe that the Commonwealth suggests John O'Keefe lost his life. [02:45:45] Speaker 3: Objection. Sustained. You can ask that differently and this will be your last question for today, please. [02:45:50] Speaker 1: Yes, Your Honor. The period between 12:29 and 12:50, which is the exact period that you were, quote, "butt-dialing" John multiple times. That's also the exact period that John O'Keefe, which rendered incapacity. Isn't that right? [02:46:11] Speaker 3: Jack. That's sustained. We'll start up again tomorrow, okay? Thank you. [02:46:15] Speaker 5: All right, folks. I'm going to . [02:46:18] Speaker ?: All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.