About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Karen Read Trial (Pt 27.2) — Brian Albert – Cross Examination 🍿 from The Trial Channel, published June 22, 2026. The transcript contains 25,916 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Mr. Albert, this is not, this process is not the first time you've testified in a court of law, is it? No. In fact, you were a police officer for either just under or just over 30 years, is that right? Yes. During that time, how many times would you say that you testified in a court of law in any..."
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, this is not, this process is not the first time you've testified in a court of law, is it?
[00:00:06] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:00:07] Speaker 1: In fact, you were a police officer for either just under or just over 30 years, is that right?
[00:00:12] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:00:12] Speaker 1: During that time, how many times would you say that you testified in a court of law in any capacity?
[00:00:19] Mr. Lally: I would say a hundred, perhaps.
[00:00:22] Speaker 1: So you consider yourself to be an experienced witness?
[00:00:27] Mr. Lally: In what aspect? As far as being a witness as a police officer?
[00:00:34] Speaker 1: You've experienced testifying in a courtroom?
[00:00:37] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:00:37] Speaker 1: Okay, so you understand the oath?
[00:00:40] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:00:40] Speaker 1: You understand the gravity of perjury?
[00:00:43] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:00:43] Speaker 1: When was the last time you spoke to Mr. Lally before Friday when you began testifying?
[00:00:52] Mr. Lally: Before Friday, the last time I spoke to Mr. Lally was, I believe, on a conference call around the time of my grand jury testimony.
[00:01:05] Speaker 1: Which would have been 2022?
[00:01:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:01:07] Speaker 1: April of 2022? Yes. So you've not spoken with Mr. Lally since that time?
[00:01:13] Mr. Lally: I don't remember speaking with Mr. Lally since that time, no.
[00:01:16] Speaker 1: What about anybody else from the district attorney's office?
[00:01:19] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:01:20] Speaker 1: Have you gone over the facts, or what you believe to be the facts of your testimony, with anybody before you testified on a Friday, not including any lawyer that you may have?
[00:01:29] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:01:30] Speaker 1: Did you discuss any questions that you may be asked on direct examination, or questions that you may be posed on cross-examination with any member of the district attorney's office?
[00:01:39] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:01:40] Speaker 1: Were you told about any exhibits or documents that you might be shown?
[00:01:44] Mr. Lally: Just in the prep, I believe, I was shown a video of the waterfall bar.
[00:01:50] Speaker 1: And that was back in April of 2022?
[00:01:54] Mr. Lally: No. That was for the prep for this trial.
[00:01:56] Speaker 1: With whom did you prep?
[00:01:58] Mr. Lally: I'm Mr. Lally.
[00:02:00] Speaker 1: I'm confused. I thought you said you had not spoken with Mr. Lally since April of 2022.
[00:02:05] Mr. Lally: Except for the prep for this trial. I had not.
[00:02:08] Speaker 1: Okay, that was my question, Mr. Albert.
[00:02:11] Mr. Lally: Okay, I misunderstood your question. I apologize.
[00:02:13] Speaker 1: Did you prep for this trial, Mr. Lally?
[00:02:15] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:02:16] Speaker 1: When?
[00:02:17] Mr. Lally: Approximately a few weeks ago.
[00:02:20] Speaker 1: Okay. Mr. Albert, about 45 seconds ago, I asked you, have you spoken with Mr. Lally before your testimony in this process, this proceeding? And your answer was, no, I have not. Did you not understand my question?
[00:02:35] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[00:02:36] Speaker 1: What was confusing about it?
[00:02:38] Mr. Lally: I was expecting you to ask if I had prepped with Mr. Lally. I didn't hear prepped with Mr. Lally, so I didn't know what you were referring to.
[00:02:44] Speaker 1: So when I said spoke with Mr. Lally, since I didn't say prep with Mr. Lally, your answer was, no, I didn't speak with him. I just prepped with him.
[00:02:52] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:02:55] Speaker 1: What's the difference between speaking and prepping?
[00:02:57] Mr. Lally: No, there is no difference. I just misunderstood your question. That's all.
[00:03:01] Speaker 1: Tell me about that prep with Mr. Lally.
[00:03:04] Mr. Lally: Sure. I prepped with Mr. Lally about this trial with Mr. Lally and my attorney.
[00:03:11] Speaker 1: Where did that preparation take place?
[00:03:14] Mr. Lally: The preparation took place, I believe, I'm trying to remember exactly where it was. I actually don't recall where it was.
[00:03:24] Speaker 1: Would it have been at the DA's office?
[00:03:27] Mr. Lally: Yes, but it wasn't at the DA's office. No, I believe it was somewhere else, but I can't remember if it was here or the DA's office. I'm not sure.
[00:03:36] Speaker 1: I also asked you a couple of minutes ago, did you review any documents or any evidence in preparation for your testimony? And to that question, you also answered no.
[00:03:45] Mr. Lally: I said I reviewed the video.
[00:03:47] Speaker 1: Well, now you're saying you reviewed a video, but when I asked you, did you see any evidence or documents, anything, in preparation for your testimony? You said no, correct?
[00:03:58] Mr. Lally: No, I believe I said I saw a video.
[00:04:01] Speaker 1: Did you misunderstand my question when I asked it the first time as well?
[00:04:05] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:04:05] Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to try to be clearer with my questions.
[00:04:07] Mr. Lally: Okay.
[00:04:08] Speaker 1: Let me try it again. What, if anything, have you reviewed in anticipation of your testimony in this trial?
[00:04:18] Mr. Lally: So I reviewed a video of the waterfall.
[00:04:21] Speaker 1: Anything else?
[00:04:22] Mr. Lally: I reviewed my transcript from the Grand Jerry.
[00:04:25] Speaker 1: So you have reviewed your prior testimony?
[00:04:28] Mr. Lally: My transcript of the Grand Jerry, yes.
[00:04:30] Speaker 1: Which is prior testimony, correct?
[00:04:31] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:04:31] Speaker 1: When did you do that?
[00:04:33] Mr. Lally: I did that during the prep.
[00:04:37] Speaker 1: What part of the waterfall video did Mr. Lally show you?
[00:04:40] Mr. Lally: It was a small snippet of the video, and just one of the 20 seconds of video during that night.
[00:04:48] Speaker 1: Which part? There's a lot of video there. Which part, if you can tell us, which part did you review with Mr. Lally?
[00:04:55] Mr. Lally: It just showed the waterfall. It showed patrons. It showed myself and the other people I was with.
[00:05:01] Speaker 1: What were you doing in that 20-second snippet of that video?
[00:05:06] Mr. Lally: I believe in one portion of it, I was fooling around with Brian Higgins.
[00:05:11] Speaker 1: Fooling around?
[00:05:12] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:05:13] Speaker 1: What does that mean?
[00:05:14] Mr. Lally: It means we were just fooling around. That's it.
[00:05:19] Speaker 1: Fooling around, like, I don't know, like arm wrestling?
[00:05:23] Mr. Lally: No, I don't think we were arm wrestling. I think we were just pushing each other, fooling around.
[00:05:27] Speaker 1: Oh. So, play fighting?
[00:05:30] Mr. Lally: I don't think I would call it play fighting. No, I was just...
[00:05:33] Speaker 1: Remember seeing the part of the video where you took a fighting stance, sort of like this?
[00:05:36] Mr. Lally: I actually don't remember that part, no.
[00:05:38] Speaker 1: No. Remember a part of the video where Brian Higgins took a fighting stance, sort of like this?
[00:05:44] Mr. Lally: Maybe, yes.
[00:05:46] Speaker 1: Do you approach one another?
[00:05:48] Mr. Lally: I don't think I saw that whole video, no.
[00:05:52] Speaker 1: Practicing fighting techniques?
[00:05:54] Mr. Lally: I don't... I wouldn't call it that, no.
[00:05:56] Speaker 1: No, you can have that.
[00:05:57] Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what was your answer to that, Mr. Albert? No.
[00:06:00] Speaker 1: So, what you reviewed with Mr. Lally was the portion of the video where you and Mr. Higgins were somehow fooling around, and... Well, how would you describe it? If it's not fighting techniques, how would you describe it?
[00:06:13] Mr. Lally: Just joking, being silly, just fooling around.
[00:06:16] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:06:17] Speaker 1: Doing what physically?
[00:06:20] Mr. Lally: Doing... If you were a phrase...
[00:06:22] Speaker 1: Physically, I mean, you could joke with words.
[00:06:24] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:06:24] Speaker 1: Are you just joking with words, like a stand-up comedian, or were you doing something physically?
[00:06:29] Mr. Lally: No, I think we were pushing each other, fooling around, joking.
[00:06:32] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you ever show him how to throw a punch?
[00:06:36] Mr. Lally: Did I what?
[00:06:37] Speaker 1: Did you throw him... Did you show him how you would throw a punch?
[00:06:40] Mr. Lally: I don't remember that, no.
[00:06:42] Speaker 1: Did you squat down, show him how you want to get low, when you're either aggressive or defending an aggression?
[00:06:50] Mr. Lally: I don't remember that exact pose, no.
[00:06:52] Speaker 1: Did he walk over to you and grab you and act like he was going to drive a knee into your stomach?
[00:06:59] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure.
[00:07:01] Speaker 1: At some point, did you flip him around and grab him in a wrestling hold?
[00:07:07] Mr. Lally: I may have, I just don't remember it exactly.
[00:07:09] Speaker 1: Do these things sound familiar when you reviewed, as to your review of the video that you saw with Mr. Lally?
[00:07:16] Mr. Lally: No, I didn't see all those on the video of Mr. Lally.
[00:07:19] Speaker 1: Did you discuss with Mr. Lally the questions that you might be asked by him on direct examination? Did he go through, here are the topics of conversation that we're going to have?
[00:07:28] Mr. Lally: No, not like that.
[00:07:30] Speaker 1: Did he go over with you what he believed the topics of conversation might be on cross-examination by either myself or Mr. Unetti?
[00:07:38] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[00:07:39] Speaker 1: What did he tell you, you might be asked?
[00:07:43] Mr. Lally: I don't remember exactly what he told me. He said we could be asked about the night at the waterfall. We could be asked about back at the house, things like that.
[00:07:54] Speaker 1: Anything else?
[00:07:57] Mr. Lally: Not that I can remember.
[00:07:59] Speaker 1: Is there anything, given your conversation with Mr. Lally, is there anything that you want to change about the testimony that you previously gave under oath in April of 2022?
[00:08:10] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:08:10] Speaker 1: The fact that you've now reviewed that testimony?
[00:08:12] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:08:13] Speaker 1: You stick by that testimony?
[00:08:14] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:08:15] Speaker 1: Okay. Have you watched any of these proceedings on any platform before your testimony?
[00:08:23] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:08:24] Speaker 1: You've never tuned in to anything that's live streaming, any of the media coverage?
[00:08:28] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:08:31] Speaker 1: You're aware that your wife testified before you?
[00:08:34] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:08:35] Speaker 1: Did you discuss, I don't want to know what the words were. Did you discuss her testimony with her before you testified?
[00:08:42] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:08:43] Speaker 1: So she came home after testifying in this trial, and you two never brought it up?
[00:08:50] Mr. Lally: No. I just asked her how she was doing, and that was it.
[00:08:55] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, are you close friends with Brian Higgins?
[00:08:58] Mr. Lally: I wouldn't describe it as close friends, no.
[00:09:00] Speaker 1: He's a fellow law enforcement officer, correct?
[00:09:02] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:09:03] Speaker 1: Works for the ATF?
[00:09:04] Mr. Lally: He does.
[00:09:05] Speaker 1: The Department of, or the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms and Explosives, correct?
[00:09:09] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:09:10] Speaker 1: How long have you known Mr. Higgins?
[00:09:11] Mr. Lally: I think I first met Mr. Higgins about 15 years ago.
[00:09:15] Speaker 1: How did you meet him?
[00:09:17] Mr. Lally: It was a professional, something at work. We may have worked together, I think, at the time. He was a Cambridge Arson Squad member, and I think he came into the city of Boston to do something for work.
[00:09:33] Speaker 1: So you've known him for 15 years, and you were with him on January 28, 2022, correct?
[00:09:39] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:09:40] Speaker 1: And he's the person that you were, quote, joking and fooling around with, right?
[00:09:44] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:09:47] Speaker 1: You had a long road trip with Mr. Higgins on January 28, 2022, didn't you?
[00:09:56] Mr. Lally: Is there, what's the question?
[00:09:58] Speaker 1: You had a long road trip with Mr. Higgins on January 28, 2022, correct?
[00:10:04] Mr. Lally: We drove from New York to Boston, yes.
[00:10:10] Speaker 1: It's a pretty good drive, you'd say?
[00:10:12] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:10:13] Speaker 1: Consider that a road trip?
[00:10:15] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:10:16] Speaker 1: How long?
[00:10:17] Mr. Lally: I don't know if it was probably somewhere around four hours, maybe.
[00:10:24] Speaker 1: Once you got back from New York to back up to Boston, the Boston area, the two of you stopped at the location, correct? Yes. What was the location?
[00:10:35] Mr. Lally: The hillside.
[00:10:36] Speaker 1: And what did you two do at the hillside?
[00:10:39] Mr. Lally: We went into the hillside, had a drink, talked, and I think Brian may have ordered food.
[00:10:46] Speaker 1: So once you got back from that relatively long road trip, that four-hour-long trip, four-hour-long road trip, I apologize, you stopped at a bar and started drinking, correct?
[00:10:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:10:57] Speaker 1: Did you have anything to eat at the hillside?
[00:10:59] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[00:11:00] Speaker 1: But Brian did. Brian Higgins did.
[00:11:02] Mr. Lally: I left prior to Brian Higgins eating.
[00:11:06] Speaker 1: During the course of that road trip or at the hillside, did the two of you discuss Karen Reed, my client?
[00:11:13] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:11:14] Speaker 1: Did her name ever come up?
[00:11:15] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:11:17] Speaker 1: Without telling me anything that he may have actually said, did he mention Karen Reed or the topic of Karen Reed?
[00:11:23] Mr. Lally: No, never.
[00:11:26] Speaker 1: Did he mention the fact that he had been texting and flirting with Karen Reed two weeks prior?
[00:11:31] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:11:32] Speaker 1: So that subject, according to you, was never addressed or broached by Mr. Higgins or you?
[00:11:37] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:11:38] Speaker 1: During that entire day?
[00:11:39] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:11:40] Speaker 1: After you arrived at the waterfall, John O'Keefe arrived subsequent thereto, right? Yes. How long after?
[00:11:49] Mr. Lally: Approximately 45 minutes, maybe?
[00:11:53] Speaker 1: And Karen Reed was with him. Is that right?
[00:11:55] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:11:55] Speaker 1: Brian Higgins was standing right next to you when she came in along with John O'Keefe, correct?
[00:12:00] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure where people were standing when they arrived.
[00:12:02] Speaker 1: Well, you remember being, you saw a video of them, correct?
[00:12:07] Mr. Lally: Not of, I don't believe there's any, I saw a video of them walking into the waterfall, no.
[00:12:10] Speaker 1: Fair enough. But you saw at least a clip, according to you, you saw a clip of that video of you at the waterfall, correct? Yes. You were situated at a high top table, right? Yes. Your back is sort of to the camera, is that right?
[00:12:24] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure of the camera angles. The video that I saw, I was at the high top table, but I'm not sure of all the camera angles of the waterfall.
[00:12:34] Speaker 1: Brian Higgins is the guy with the sweatshirt, maybe a Harley-Davidson emblem on the back or something?
[00:12:41] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure what he wore that night. I'm sure he had a sweatshirt on, but I don't know what the emblem was.
[00:12:45] Speaker 1: He was standing right next to you in the video clip that you saw?
[00:12:48] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:12:49] Speaker 1: Okay. In other words, that was the video where he was standing right next to you. You two turned to each other and start this playing fighting thing?
[00:12:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:13:01] Speaker 1: So if it's that time or sometime around there at the high top, you were in proximity of Brian Higgins when Karen Reed and John O'Keefe came into the bar, correct?
[00:13:11] Mr. Lally: I just don't recall the timing of when they came into the bar.
[00:13:15] Speaker 1: All right. Mr. Albert, did Mr. Higgins say anything to you at that time about John O'Keefe arriving with Karen Reed at his side?
[00:13:23] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:13:24] Speaker 1: Did Mr. Higgins say anything to you about being upset that Karen Reed had shown up with John O'Keefe?
[00:13:30] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:13:31] Speaker 1: Describe your relationship with John O'Keefe, if you would.
[00:13:35] Mr. Lally: So I didn't know John that well. I had only met him a few times. But every time I met him, it was cordial, pleasant. And I would consider him to be a co-worker, even though I never really worked with him directly. He seemed like a nice guy. I knew his whole story about the fact that he had taken his niece and nephew after a tragedy in the family. And I had an unbelievable amount of respect for him doing that. But I can't say that we were good friends because I didn't really know him all that well.
[00:14:06] Speaker 1: You were far better friends with Brian Higgins than you were with John O'Keefe. That's fair to say.
[00:14:09] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:14:10] Speaker 1: On Friday, you were asked whether or not you knew my client, Karen Reed, correct? This meeting a couple days ago during your direct examination.
[00:14:20] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[00:14:21] Speaker 1: You were also asked the same series of questions at another grand jury not involving the Commonwealth. Remember that in June of 2023? Yes. I want to be clear about this other hearing. That was a non-commonwealth hearing in front of a grand jury, correct? Yes. All right. Mr. Lally and his colleagues were not there. Is that right?
[00:14:43] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:14:44] Speaker 1: I was not there. Mr. Yanetti was not there. Yes. Or Ms. Little.
[00:14:48] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:14:49] Speaker 1: Okay. At that June 2023, and I'm going to talk about a couple of dates, so I don't want it to be confusing. At that June 2023 non-commonwealth hearing, you were asked some questions about whether or not you knew Karen Reed before January 28, 2022.
[00:15:09] Mr. Lally: I believe so.
[00:15:10] Speaker 1: Is that right in question?
[00:15:11] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[00:15:12] Speaker 1: And you testified, before you testified, you were sworn an oath.
[00:15:17] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:15:18] Speaker 1: Same oath that you swore in this trial, correct?
[00:15:20] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:15:20] Speaker 1: You swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
[00:15:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:15:24] Speaker 1: And you knew that you were testifying under penalty of perjury in that hearing as well, correct?
[00:15:28] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:15:28] Speaker 1: And you testified at that non-commonwealth grand jury that you, quote, believed Karen was with John the night he came into Hillside. A female that looked similar to Karen from the waterfall came in with him on that night, and I assume that was her, but I can't say for sure, end quote. That was your testimony before that grand jury.
[00:15:53] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:15:55] Speaker 1: But you were also asked a similar question in April of 2022 by Mr. Lally at his grand jury. Do you remember that?
[00:16:06] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:16:07] Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. Before you testified in the April of 2022 grand jury, more than a year earlier, and just three months after this incident, you were sworn an oath, correct?
[00:16:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:16:24] Speaker 1: The same oath that you took in June of 2023, right? Yes. And the same oath you took on Friday?
[00:16:30] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:16:32] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that you were asked the question whether or not you knew Karen Reed on January 28th, 2022, and you testified, quote, I've never met or seen her before, end quote.
[00:16:46] Mr. Lally: No, I don't recall that.
[00:16:48] Speaker 1: Didn't you indicate that you just testified, I'm sorry, that you reviewed your grand jury testimony in anticipation for this trial? Yes. You read the whole thing?
[00:16:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:16:56] Speaker 1: And you don't recall making that statement?
[00:17:00] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:17:07] Speaker 1: May I approach on it?
[00:17:08] Speaker 3: Yes. And I'll see counsel at sidebar when you leave that with the witness.
[00:17:16] Speaker 1: Just please take a look at that.
[00:17:17] Mr. Lally: Sure.
[00:17:21] Speaker 1: May I approach on it?
[00:17:22] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:17:23] Speaker 1: Mr. Alba, did you get an opportunity to review that?
[00:17:25] Mr. Lally: I have. Thank you.
[00:17:26] Speaker 1: Does that refresh your recollections to what you said before the grand jury in April of 2022?
[00:17:38] Mr. Lally: Yes, but you didn't read the whole, you didn't read the whole quote, though. Right.
[00:17:42] Speaker 1: The whole quote is the following. Question. So the female you had never met before, is that fair to say? Answer. No. I've never met her or seen her before. Period. Maybe once. But I don't think I've ever had a conversation with her. That was the entire quote, correct?
[00:18:02] Mr. Lally: That's the entire quote, yes. That's not what you read earlier, but yes.
[00:18:05] Speaker 1: Well, what I read earlier was, I've never seen, I'm sorry, I've never met or seen her before. Those words came out of your mouth, correct? Those words came out of your mouth, correct?
[00:18:14] Mr. Lally: That's not my whole sentence, no.
[00:18:18] Speaker 1: You said, I've never met or seen her before, and then you said, maybe once, but I've never had a conversation with her, I don't think.
[00:18:25] Mr. Lally: Right. Correct? That's, yes, that's my sentence.
[00:18:27] Speaker 1: Okay. So which is it, Mr. Albert? What were you saying? Were you saying you met her and had a conversation with her? Or were you saying, I've never met or seen her before? Which one of those two things was true?
[00:18:37] Mr. Lally: I was saying that I've met her maybe once.
[00:18:40] Speaker 1: Actually, what you said was, I've never met her or seen her before. Your words, not my words, sir. Isn't that right?
[00:18:47] Mr. Lally: No, because in the next sentence, I say, I met her maybe once.
[00:18:51] Speaker 1: So you literally changed your testimony within your own testimony?
[00:18:55] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:18:56] Speaker 3: No, can you answer that, Mr. Albert?
[00:18:58] Mr. Lally: I believe I qualified my first sentence with a second sentence.
[00:19:03] Speaker 1: So what changed between the first sentence, where you indicated unequivocally, I've never met or seen her before, and the second sentence, when you said, maybe once?
[00:19:13] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure what I was thinking at the time that I said that.
[00:19:16] Speaker 1: Isn't it true, Mr. Albert, not only had you met Ms. Reid, but you had spent several hours with Karen Reid and John O'Keefe six days before this incident. Isn't that true?
[00:19:31] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:19:33] Speaker 1: In fact, on January 22, 2022, six days before January 28, you socialized with Karen Reid at the Hillside Bar for several hours, didn't you?
[00:19:47] Mr. Lally: I was at the Hillside Bar the week prior, yes.
[00:19:50] Speaker 1: It was a Saturday night, correct?
[00:19:51] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:19:53] Speaker 1: You were at the bar?
[00:19:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:19:55] Speaker 1: There were several other folks at the bar, correct?
[00:19:57] Mr. Lally: Several people, yes.
[00:19:58] Speaker 1: That included Chris Albert, your brother?
[00:20:00] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:20:00] Speaker 1: A guy named Tim Daly?
[00:20:02] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:20:02] Speaker 1: D-A-I-L-Y, is that right?
[00:20:05] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure how to spell his last name.
[00:20:06] Speaker 1: Julie Albert was there?
[00:20:08] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:20:08] Speaker 1: Jen McCabe was there?
[00:20:10] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:20:10] Speaker 1: Matt McCabe was there?
[00:20:12] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:20:13] Speaker 1: John O'Keefe was there?
[00:20:15] Mr. Lally: Yes, he was.
[00:20:16] Speaker 1: And Karen Reid was there, correct?
[00:20:19] Mr. Lally: Yes, she was.
[00:20:22] Speaker 1: I'd like you to take a look at a photograph. Just look at that to yourself for a second. Tell me if you familiarize yourself with it and then look up when you're ready.
[00:20:37] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:20:38] Speaker 1: May I approach?
[00:20:39] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:20:40] Speaker 1: Actually, I don't need to. Mr. Albert, you stay there. Do you recognize the photograph that's before you? Yes. How do you recognize it?
[00:20:49] Mr. Lally: Well, I recognize the people within the photograph and the background of the photograph looks like the hillside.
[00:20:56] Speaker 1: Does that appear to be a photograph that was taken on January 22nd, 2022? Yes. You were at the hillside bar? Yes. May I publish this, Your Honor?
[00:21:04] Speaker 3: Okay. Is it already in evidence?
[00:21:06] Speaker 1: It is not, Your Honor. I'm sorry.
[00:21:08] Speaker 3: So you put it in evidence first and then you publish it.
[00:21:10] Speaker 1: May I have that marked as next in order?
[00:21:12] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:21:13] Speaker 1: And then? Let me exhibit 67.
[00:21:15] Speaker 3: Thank you.
[00:21:16] Speaker 1: You see that photograph? It's the same photograph that you're looking at in front of you?
[00:21:20] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:21:20] Speaker 1: Describe who the people are going from left to right, sir.
[00:21:24] Mr. Lally: Chris Albert, myself, John O'Keefe, and Tim Daly.
[00:21:30] Speaker 1: And this was on January 22nd, 2022, about 11 p.m., correct? Yes. May I approach, Your Honor?
[00:21:39] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:21:40] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, who took the photo?
[00:21:47] Mr. Lally: I don't know.
[00:21:48] Speaker 1: Karen Reed took the photo, didn't she?
[00:21:50] Mr. Lally: I have no idea who took that photo.
[00:21:53] Speaker 1: Karen Reed took the photo. You're literally staring right at her, correct?
[00:21:58] Mr. Lally: I don't know who took the photo.
[00:21:59] Speaker ?: Well, who else do you think it could have been?
[00:22:01] Mr. Lally: Well, there are a lot of people there. You mentioned my sister, two sister-in-laws, a brother-in-law. I'm not sure.
[00:22:06] Speaker 1: Did you ever see this photo from Jim McCabe?
[00:22:11] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:22:12] Speaker 1: Did you ever see it from Julie Albert?
[00:22:15] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:22:17] Speaker 1: Chris Albert didn't take it. He's in it.
[00:22:19] Speaker ?: Right.
[00:22:20] Speaker 1: Tim didn't take it. He's in it.
[00:22:21] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:22:22] Speaker 1: You obviously didn't take it.
[00:22:24] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:22:24] Speaker 1: And who's the guy on the far right?
[00:22:26] Mr. Lally: Tim.
[00:22:27] Speaker 1: That was Tim. Who's the guy next to Tim?
[00:22:29] Speaker 3: John. Right?
[00:22:31] Speaker 1: So who do you think...
[00:22:32] Speaker 3: Do you still need the photo up? I'm sorry. I thought you were done with it.
[00:22:35] Speaker 1: Do you remember?
[00:22:36] Speaker 3: Yeah. It was John. Yeah.
[00:22:38] Speaker 1: Okay. Yes. Put the baseball cap on, correct? Yes. I don't need it, John. Okay. So given the fact that you were never shown that... You've never seen that photo before today, correct?
[00:22:50] Mr. Lally: I saw a photo that was sent to me in Discovery or to my attorney that showed only, I believe, me and John in the picture. I think it's the same photo, only that's blown up to show everybody.
[00:23:03] Speaker 1: So given what you now know about that night, who's there, the fact that John is posing for a photo right next to you, who do you think took the photo, sir?
[00:23:15] Mr. Lally: I have no idea who took the photo.
[00:23:18] Speaker 1: Could it have been Karen Reed?
[00:23:20] Mr. Lally: Objection. Sustained.
[00:23:22] Speaker 3: Let's move along from now, please.
[00:23:23] Speaker 1: In fact, you were interacting with Karen Reed. And John O'Keefe throughout that evening, correct?
[00:23:33] Mr. Lally: I remember having conversations with John that evening. I don't necessarily remember speaking to Karen that evening.
[00:23:40] Speaker 1: Irrespective of whether or not you spoke to her, you obviously saw her there.
[00:23:44] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:23:45] Speaker 1: You were there with her for a couple of hours.
[00:23:47] Mr. Lally: Well, I wasn't there with her for a few hours. I was there with other people.
[00:23:50] Speaker 1: Okay. So without splitting hairs, she was there, correct?
[00:23:55] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:23:56] Speaker 1: John was there.
[00:23:57] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:23:58] Speaker 1: You were socializing with John.
[00:24:00] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:24:00] Speaker 1: She was right next to him.
[00:24:05] Mr. Lally: Sometimes, perhaps, not maybe all the times I was talking to him.
[00:24:08] Speaker 1: So you were socializing not exclusively with her, but certainly socializing with her six days before John O'Keefe ended up dead on your lawn, correct?
[00:24:19] Mr. Lally: We were there at the same time, yes.
[00:24:21] Speaker 1: And yet, when you were asked three months later, do you know Karen Reed or how do you know Karen Reed, the actual question was, so the female you've never met before, is that fair to say? That was Mr. Lally's question. And your immediate response was, no, I've never met her or seen her before, correct? That's what you said.
[00:24:44] Mr. Lally: That's not my whole response, no.
[00:24:46] Speaker 1: That's what you said immediately upon that question, sir.
[00:24:49] Mr. Lally: That's the beginning of my response, yes.
[00:24:51] Speaker 1: That was the first sentence out of your mouth?
[00:24:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:24:56] Speaker 1: You also testified at the subsequent grand jury in June of 2023. When asked, what was your impression of Ms. Reed, you said, quote, I honestly didn't really have one. I didn't have any conversation with her. I just kind of saw her from across the table. I didn't really think of it either way, correct?
[00:25:17] Mr. Lally: I don't know what that question is referring to. Is that for the waterfall or is that for Hillside?
[00:25:22] Speaker 1: Hillside.
[00:25:23] Mr. Lally: Okay. Yes.
[00:25:24] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:25:25] Speaker 1: So in June of 2023, a little over a year later, your testimony significantly changed from, no, I've never met or seen her before to, I really didn't have a conversation with her. I saw her across the table. I didn't really think of it either way. Correct?
[00:25:47] Mr. Lally: No, I think those are very similar testimonies.
[00:25:50] Speaker 1: When you were asked in the other proceeding, and this is about the waterfall, question, did you talk to Karen Reed at the waterfall that night? You answered unequivocally, I did not. Is that right?
[00:26:04] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:26:07] Speaker 1: And that's what you told the June grand jury, June of 23, correct?
[00:26:19] Mr. Lally: Are you referring to the state grand jury? No, I'm sorry.
[00:26:22] Speaker 1: That's why I'm using dates. I'm trying to be careful. Right.
[00:26:24] Mr. Lally: I'm just not clear on what all the dates were.
[00:26:27] Speaker 1: I'll see if I can clarify. Okay. April 2022, state grand jury. June of 2023, a different grand jury.
[00:26:36] Mr. Lally: Okay.
[00:26:37] Speaker 1: Okay? When you were asked at the June of 2023 grand jury, did you ever talk with Karen Reed at the waterfall that night? Your answer was, I did not.
[00:26:47] Mr. Lally: Correct? Yes.
[00:26:48] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:26:49] Speaker 1: With the court's permission, could I play a small clip from the Institute of 53?
[00:26:53] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:26:55] Speaker 1: Starting at timestamp 1153 in 15 seconds. If we could just play this, and I would direct your attention, sir, to the upper right-hand corner.
[00:27:21] Speaker 3: Pause it.
[00:27:25] Speaker 1: Do you recognize the individuals in this clip?
[00:27:27] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:27:30] Speaker 1: Do you recognize that person?
[00:27:33] Mr. Lally: Yes, I believe that's me.
[00:27:34] Speaker 1: Do you recognize that person?
[00:27:37] Mr. Lally: I do. I believe that's the defendant.
[00:27:39] Speaker 1: Ms. Reed?
[00:27:40] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:27:41] Speaker 1: What does it appear you are doing as it relates to Ms. Reed in this clip?
[00:27:47] Mr. Lally: It appears that I'm talking at the table. I don't know if it's specifically to her, but...
[00:27:53] Speaker 1: Did you see the part of the clip starting at 1153 in 15 seconds, going back about 30 seconds?
[00:28:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:28:07] Speaker 1: Who did it appear you were talking directly to, and who did it appear was answering directly to you?
[00:28:13] Mr. Lally: I looked like I was speaking, but I can't say for sure that I was directly talking to the defendant.
[00:28:19] Speaker 1: Even though it looked like you were looking right at her and leaning toward her as she was answering you.
[00:28:24] Mr. Lally: I was definitely looking that way. I just, I don't remember the conversation.
[00:28:27] Speaker 1: The reality is, let me take that down. The reality is, Mr. Albert, you had many conversations with her throughout the night, like you would with anybody else you were socializing with, correct?
[00:28:37] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:28:38] Speaker 1: It's not like you ignored her through that evening.
[00:28:40] Mr. Lally: No, I just, no, I think that just the positioning of me on the other side of the table, I didn't have really much contact.
[00:28:46] Speaker 1: There was only one person between you, and that was Mr. Higgins.
[00:28:49] Mr. Lally: No, I don't think that was the setup for the whole night.
[00:28:51] Speaker 1: I didn't say the whole night. Right. I was talking about right then.
[00:28:54] Mr. Lally: Right. So, so...
[00:28:55] Speaker 1: That's an example.
[00:28:57] Mr. Lally: Right. Which, a question, rephrase your question, please.
[00:28:59] Speaker 1: I do not recall having conversations with Karen Reed that night at all, no. And that's what you told the grand jury under oath, notwithstanding this video evidence to the contrary.
[00:29:14] Mr. Lally: Yes, I don't think that that video shows that.
[00:29:17] Speaker 3: I'm going to let that stand. Next question, please.
[00:29:20] Speaker 1: You were interviewed by Michael Proctor on January 29th, the day after this incident, correct?
[00:29:26] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:29:28] Speaker 1: And that was six days after you spent several hours, Karen Reed, at this event, correct? Six days later? Yes. You were asked by Michael Proctor whether or not you knew or what your relationship was with Karen Reed, correct?
[00:29:49] Mr. Lally: I don't recall if he asked me that.
[00:29:52] Speaker 1: Did you say to Michael Proctor, quote, that you, quote, did not know Karen Reed, end quote?
[00:29:58] Mr. Lally: I may have, yes.
[00:30:01] Speaker 1: But when you made that statement, you did not know that Ms. Reed had a photograph of you at the hillside bar, correct? You didn't know that photo existed, did you? Objection, Your Honor.
[00:30:11] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[00:30:13] Speaker 1: Sir, you were trying to distance yourself from Ms. Reed in your interview with Michael Proctor, weren't you?
[00:30:19] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:30:20] Speaker 1: Were you?
[00:30:21] Mr. Lally: No, I was not.
[00:30:23] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, you were trying to distance yourself from knowing Ms. Reed in your grand jury testimony with, well, I'll use the date, in your April 2022 grand jury testimony, weren't you?
[00:30:36] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:30:37] Speaker 1: You were further trying to distance yourself from Ms. Reed in your June 2023 grand jury testimony as well, correct?
[00:30:45] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:30:46] Speaker 1: You thought that it was important to try to deny knowing John O'Keefe and Karen Reed during those interviews and or that testimony.
[00:30:53] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:30:54] Speaker 1: Sustained. Mr. Albert, you knew that if you admitted having a relationship with John O'Keefe and Karen Reed, you'd have a lot to answer for when Karen Reed's boyfriend ended up dead on your lawn six days later, correct?
[00:31:08] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:31:09] Speaker 3: Sustained. You can ask the question differently.
[00:31:13] Speaker 1: You knew that there would be questions about your relationship with Karen Reed if it were known that you knew her before her boyfriend ended up dead on your lawn six days later.
[00:31:24] Speaker ?: Correct? There would be questions.
[00:31:26] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:31:27] Speaker 3: Can I ask it a different way? That's sustained.
[00:31:34] Speaker 1: So you lied under oath when you said, I've never met or seen her before, correct?
[00:31:40] Mr. Lally: No, because that wasn't my whole statement.
[00:31:43] Speaker 1: The sentence, I've never met or seen her before. It's pretty unequivocal, isn't it?
[00:31:50] Mr. Lally: That was not the context of my whole sentence.
[00:31:54] Speaker 1: But that's the words that came, those are the words that came out of your mouth, right?
[00:31:58] Mr. Lally: Initially, and then I remembered that I had met her once.
[00:32:01] Speaker 1: Let me just ask it this way.
[00:32:02] Mr. Lally: Sure.
[00:32:02] Speaker 1: Is that sentence true or false that you had never met or seen her before? True or false?
[00:32:08] Mr. Lally: That portion of that sentence is false.
[00:32:14] Speaker 1: Let's get this on the record. Did John O'Keefe come into your house at 34 Fairview at any time on January 29th, 2022?
[00:32:27] Mr. Lally: Absolutely not. I wish that he had.
[00:32:29] Speaker 1: And you're as sure about that as you are about the statement that you had never met or seen Karen Reed in your life?
[00:32:39] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:32:40] Speaker 1: Correct?
[00:32:41] Speaker 3: Sustained. Can I ask it differently, Mr. Jackson?
[00:32:45] Speaker 1: I want to get back to the waterfall. I know I asked you this about the hillside. I may not have asked you about this specific question about the waterfall. Did Brian Higgins say anything to you about John O'Keefe and Karen Reed walking in together at the waterfall?
[00:33:02] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:33:03] Speaker 1: Did he say anything or give you any indication that he was upset about Karen Reed showing up with John O'Keefe?
[00:33:10] Mr. Lally: No, he did not.
[00:33:11] Speaker 1: It appeared from your observations that John and Karen were getting along at the waterfall?
[00:33:17] Mr. Lally: I didn't really notice, but I didn't notice anything was wrong.
[00:33:21] Speaker 1: They appeared pleasant?
[00:33:22] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:33:23] Speaker 1: Happy?
[00:33:24] Mr. Lally: I don't know if they appeared happy. I didn't really notice.
[00:33:28] Speaker 1: They were interacting with others? Yes. You didn't notice any tension?
[00:33:31] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:33:32] Speaker 1: No argument? No. No yelling or fighting?
[00:33:34] Mr. Lally: Nope.
[00:33:35] Speaker 1: They looked like a normal happy couple?
[00:33:37] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:33:39] Speaker 1: Did either of them appear to you to be completely drunk?
[00:33:43] Mr. Lally: I didn't have a ton of interaction with John or Karen that night, so I can't really say, but it didn't appear to them that they were drunk, no.
[00:33:51] Speaker 1: You had an opportunity to review the waterfall video. You did it with Mr. Lally, correct?
[00:33:55] Mr. Lally: The only small portion of it.
[00:33:57] Speaker 1: Right, but even in that small portion and based on your memory, you don't remember anybody being stumbling drunk and falling down over stools and things of that nature? No. Okay. They appeared to be acting appropriately? Yes. And interacting with others appropriately?
[00:34:09] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:34:10] Speaker 1: People were buying drinks for others, is that right?
[00:34:13] Mr. Lally: I'm sure. I don't recall exactly, but I'm sure that was going on, yes.
[00:34:17] Speaker 1: It's not that unusual to say, hey, I'll get this round, correct?
[00:34:21] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:34:22] Speaker 1: You left the waterfall at 11.58, is that right?
[00:34:30] Mr. Lally: Yes, approximately.
[00:34:31] Speaker 1: Who was invited to come over to your house upon leaving the waterfall?
[00:34:36] Mr. Lally: Whoever wanted to, really.
[00:34:39] Speaker 1: You'd been drinking since about what time in the evening or the afternoon?
[00:34:43] Mr. Lally: Nine-ish.
[00:34:45] Speaker 1: That's when you went to the hillside? Yes. That's when you had your first drink? Yes. And you continued drinking throughout the evening consistently?
[00:34:52] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:34:53] Speaker 1: Did you believe you were okay to drive?
[00:34:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:34:56] Speaker 1: What kind of car did you have at the time?
[00:34:58] Mr. Lally: Ford Edge.
[00:34:59] Speaker 1: Black?
[00:34:59] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:35:00] Speaker 1: Who rode? Did you drive that car home from the waterfall?
[00:35:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:35:04] Speaker 1: Who rode with you?
[00:35:05] Mr. Lally: My wife and my daughter.
[00:35:08] Speaker 1: What other cars were in the driveway when you got there?
[00:35:14] Mr. Lally: I don't recall. Brian Higgins' Jeep was in the driveway backing up as we pulled in.
[00:35:19] Speaker 1: So kind of in your way?
[00:35:21] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:35:21] Speaker 1: In other words, you weren't going to park him in?
[00:35:25] Mr. Lally: I didn't want to block him in.
[00:35:27] Speaker 1: Right. Right. So you waited until he moved his Jeep out of the way.
[00:35:31] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:35:31] Speaker 1: And then you pulled in. Yes. Where in the driveway did you pull in?
[00:35:35] Mr. Lally: I believe I pulled to the left side of the driveway.
[00:35:37] Speaker 1: You would have been closest to the garage or was there a car between you and the garage?
[00:35:42] Mr. Lally: I would have been closest to the left side walkway. I don't think there was a car in front of me, but I'm not 100%.
[00:35:48] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, did you move that black Ford Edge at any point that night after you got home?
[00:35:55] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:35:59] Speaker 1: Brian Higgins was the first person to actually physically get to the house. He got there before you, correct?
[00:36:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:36:05] Speaker 1: Describe his Jeep.
[00:36:08] Mr. Lally: He had a Jeep Wrangler. I believe it's white. I think it's white.
[00:36:12] Speaker 1: Any appendage on it?
[00:36:14] Mr. Lally: A plow.
[00:36:15] Speaker 1: A snow plow on the front?
[00:36:16] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:36:17] Speaker 1: That can hydraulically go up and down.
[00:36:20] Mr. Lally: I didn't see it that closely. I'm assuming I can, but I don't know that for sure.
[00:36:24] Speaker 1: After Mr. Higgins moved out of your way, out of the driveway, where did he put that Jeep?
[00:36:29] Mr. Lally: I don't know. I don't know where he parked.
[00:36:35] Speaker 1: So you wouldn't have gotten to the house if you left Waterfall at 11.58, you have to get out to your car, get in your car, start it up, drive home, wait for Brian Higgins to move his Jeep, park your car, then get into the house. That's a fair assessment of the mechanism of you getting home that night, correct?
[00:36:55] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:36:56] Speaker 1: You wouldn't have gotten into the house until, what, 12.15? Maybe 15 minutes for all that?
[00:37:03] Mr. Lally: I would put it more, maybe 10 past 12.
[00:37:06] Speaker 1: Okay. 12.10 or so?
[00:37:08] Mr. Lally: That would just be a guess.
[00:37:10] Speaker 1: So it could have been 12.15.
[00:37:12] Mr. Lally: Yeah, and it could have been 12.07.
[00:37:16] Speaker 1: Who was inside the house when you walked in?
[00:37:19] Mr. Lally: My nephew, Colin, my son, Brian, and then he had two friends, female friends, I believe it's Sarah and Julie.
[00:37:28] Speaker 1: What were they doing inside the house?
[00:37:30] Mr. Lally: They were sitting at the kitchen table.
[00:37:33] Speaker 1: And your nephew, Colin, how old was he at the time?
[00:37:39] Mr. Lally: I believe 17 or 18.
[00:37:42] Speaker 1: Describe him.
[00:37:43] Mr. Lally: In what way?
[00:37:44] Speaker 1: Height, weight.
[00:37:48] Mr. Lally: So, two and a half years ago. So, he was probably 5'11", maybe six feet, and probably, you know, I'm guessing 175 pounds.
[00:38:05] Speaker 1: Big boy. He's not a small kid.
[00:38:08] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:38:08] Speaker 1: Bigger than me, significantly.
[00:38:11] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:38:14] Speaker 1: Athletic guy?
[00:38:15] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:38:16] Speaker 1: Played football? Good at football?
[00:38:18] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:38:21] Speaker 1: You testified that you went to the bathroom after you arrived home, correct?
[00:38:25] Mr. Lally: Yes, after saying hi to everybody, I went to the bathroom.
[00:38:27] Speaker 1: Was that upstairs or downstairs?
[00:38:29] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure I have a bathroom downstairs. Not downstairs, but on that floor and then upstairs. So, I'm not sure which one I went to. I think it was upstairs. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. I think it may have been upstairs, but I'm not sure.
[00:38:40] Speaker 1: When you came back downstairs from the bathroom or came out of the bathroom, wherever it was, you no longer saw Colin?
[00:38:47] Mr. Lally: Yes. Prior to going to the bathroom, Colin had said that he was getting picked up.
[00:38:51] Speaker 1: But you never saw him leave?
[00:38:53] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:38:54] Speaker 1: You didn't see him leave the house, and you didn't see him get picked up by anybody?
[00:38:56] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[00:38:57] Speaker 1: You didn't see a car outside waiting for him, correct?
[00:38:59] Mr. Lally: I didn't, no.
[00:39:05] Speaker 1: You did give an initial statement on the morning of the 29th to Michael Lank, about 7 a.m., is that right?
[00:39:13] Mr. Lally: Officer Lank was in the house at that time and speaking to all of us, really.
[00:39:18] Speaker 1: And you've admitted that you have known Michael Lank for many years, is that right? Yes. Did you see that as a problem?
[00:39:25] Mr. Lally: In what way?
[00:39:27] Speaker 1: Conflict of interest.
[00:39:28] Mr. Lally: Jackson, Your Honor.
[00:39:29] Speaker 3: I'll let him have it. Did you see that as a conflict? No.
[00:39:33] Speaker 1: You were asked who was present at the house that night, the night before, right?
[00:39:37] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:39:38] Speaker 1: You stated the following people were at the house that night, quote, in response to Officer Lank's question, at some point during the time in question. That's how he phrased the question. Who was at the house at some point during the time in question? You understood that, right?
[00:39:53] Mr. Lally: I don't recall his question, no.
[00:39:56] Speaker 1: You knew that he was asking who was in the house, right?
[00:39:58] Mr. Lally: That's right, yes.
[00:40:01] Speaker 1: So you mentioned Brian Albert, Jr.
[00:40:02] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:40:03] Speaker 1: Your son. You mentioned Caitlin Albert, your eldest.
[00:40:05] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:40:06] Speaker 1: You mentioned Julie Nagel.
[00:40:08] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:40:08] Speaker 1: You mentioned Brian Higgins.
[00:40:10] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:40:10] Speaker 1: And then you added the detail that Caitlin Albert had left your house about 12.15 a.m., correct?
[00:40:18] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:40:19] Speaker 1: You didn't say that?
[00:40:20] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[00:40:22] Speaker 1: I may have just a moment. Yes. So you don't have to sit and read the entire thing. There's a, right at the top of this post-it, there's a word that says next. If you would read that area, that next few sentences, let me know when you're finished. Mr. Albert, did you have an opportunity to review that portion of a report? We did. Did that refresh your recollection about a conversation that you had along with your wife with Officer Lank?
[00:40:52] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:40:53] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that Officer Lank asked you, asked you and your wife, who else was in the house that night, aside from the names already mentioned? And the names mentioned were Brian Albert, Jr., Caitlin Albert, Julie Nagel, and Brian Higgins, quote, who is a friend of Brian Albert, Sr., end quote. Is that right?
[00:41:14] Mr. Lally: That's what the report says, yes.
[00:41:16] Speaker 1: And then the report goes on to say, they advised me that their daughter Caitlin left the house around 12.15 a.m. when she was picked up by her boyfriend, Kristen Morris, right?
[00:41:28] Mr. Lally: That's what the report says, yes.
[00:41:30] Speaker 1: Do you think Officer Lank got it wrong?
[00:41:32] Mr. Lally: Perhaps, yes.
[00:41:33] Speaker 1: Did you say that Caitlin left about 12.15?
[00:41:38] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:41:39] Speaker 1: Did Nicole say in your presence that Caitlin left about 12.15? She did not. At any point, did Officer Lank ask you what time Caitlin left?
[00:41:48] Mr. Lally: I don't recall him asking that. It was a very chaotic morning, and I don't remember him saying that.
[00:41:53] Speaker 1: So, in fact, if he wrote that sentence in the report that you just read, he's just making that up.
[00:41:59] Speaker 4: Objection, Your Honor.
[00:42:00] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[00:42:01] Speaker 1: Oh, let's get a different way. If that's what Officer Lank recalls, he's just wrong, right?
[00:42:07] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:42:09] Speaker 1: Anything else that he's wrong about in there?
[00:42:11] Mr. Lally: I didn't read the whole report.
[00:42:12] Speaker 1: At no point, isn't it true that at no point during that interview did you admit or mention that Colin Albert had been at the house that night?
[00:42:20] Mr. Lally: I don't believe I did, no.
[00:42:22] Speaker 1: At no point during that interview did your wife, Nicole, in your presence admit or mention that Colin Albert was in the house that night?
[00:42:29] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:42:30] Speaker 1: So, did both of you conveniently forget that Colin was there?
[00:42:35] Speaker ?: Objection.
[00:42:36] Speaker 1: I'll ask you a different one. I understand. Did you forget that Colin had been there?
[00:42:41] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:42:42] Speaker 1: Is there a reason that you left his name out?
[00:42:45] Mr. Lally: Because he left when we got there. He wasn't there for the duration of the time that we had that night.
[00:42:52] Speaker 1: Except for the fact that you just testified that you never saw him leave, correct?
[00:42:57] Mr. Lally: Well, he said he was getting picked up and then he was gone, so I assumed he left.
[00:43:01] Speaker 1: People say a lot of things, but you didn't see him leave and you didn't see him in the regular floor of the house, according to you, correct?
[00:43:09] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:43:10] Speaker 1: Ground floor of the house.
[00:43:11] Mr. Lally: Right. He was no longer in my house, so he left.
[00:43:13] Speaker 1: Well, you didn't search the house, did you?
[00:43:15] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:43:15] Speaker ?: Right.
[00:43:16] Speaker 1: And you never saw him leave?
[00:43:18] Mr. Lally: I didn't physically see him leave, no.
[00:43:20] Speaker 1: You also gave a statement to Michael Proctor later that morning. It was about noon, maybe it was in the afternoon, noon, 1230, something like that.
[00:43:29] Mr. Lally: Are you asking?
[00:43:31] Speaker 1: On the 29th. You later, after you spoke with Officer Lank, you later were interviewed by Trooper Michael Proctor over at Jenna Cave's house. Do you remember that?
[00:43:41] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:43:42] Speaker 1: Colin's name was never mentioned then either.
[00:43:45] Mr. Lally: No, because Colin wasn't at the house for the duration of the night.
[00:43:48] Speaker 1: So when they said who was in the house, you talked about Brian Albert, Caitlin Albert.
[00:43:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:43:54] Speaker 1: Folks in the house.
[00:43:55] Mr. Lally: Yes. And there were other people in the house prior to us arriving. I didn't mention them either.
[00:44:01] Speaker 1: Who was that?
[00:44:02] Mr. Lally: There were some female friends that were over prior to our arrival.
[00:44:07] Speaker 1: But you never even saw them.
[00:44:09] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:44:10] Speaker 1: So you have no idea who was there and who wasn't there before you got there.
[00:44:13] Mr. Lally: No, I know that there were people at the house prior to me getting there.
[00:44:17] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, the question that would have been posed to you by several officers was, who did you see in your home when you got there, correct?
[00:44:24] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:44:25] Speaker 1: I don't want to allow it.
[00:44:26] Mr. Lally: I don't believe that's how it was asked, no.
[00:44:32] Speaker 1: But Colin's name was never mentioned. He was left out.
[00:44:36] Mr. Lally: I testified multiple times that Colin was there when we arrived.
[00:44:40] Speaker 1: Oh, you did, after the fact, right?
[00:44:42] Mr. Lally: Yes, when I was there.
[00:44:43] Speaker 1: You knew that the defense knew that Colin was there.
[00:44:47] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:44:47] Speaker 1: Sistine. In your initial reports to the police, his name was never mentioned, was it?
[00:44:55] Mr. Lally: I did not mention it, no.
[00:44:56] Speaker 1: And Nicole did not mention it in your presence, did she?
[00:44:58] Mr. Lally: In my presence, no.
[00:45:00] Speaker 1: Let's talk about Caitlin Albert, your eldest. You told Officer Lank that your daughter, well, according to Officer Lank, let me rephrase the question based on our colloquy back and forth. According to Officer Lank, you're aware that he wrote, he was told she was gone by 1215, correct?
[00:45:20] Mr. Lally: That's what he wrote in the report, yes.
[00:45:24] Speaker 1: If Caitlin was gone by 1215, she would not have been there when John and Karen arrived. to the house, correct? Because they didn't arrive for 15 minutes later.
[00:45:38] Mr. Lally: But she was at the house, so that would be a hypothetical.
[00:45:40] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:45:41] Speaker 1: So, fine. Hypotheticals. Let me ask you a hypothetical. If, in fact, Caitlin was gone by 1215, that would mean, hypothetically, she would not have been there when John and Karen arrived 15 minutes later.
[00:45:58] Speaker 3: Objection. Sustained.
[00:46:02] Speaker 1: When you were interviewed by Officer Lank that morning, other people were in the room, not just you and Officer Lank, correct?
[00:46:14] Mr. Lally: Yes, I wouldn't consider that morning to be an interview with Officer Lank.
[00:46:18] Speaker 1: More of a conversation?
[00:46:19] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:46:20] Speaker 1: During that conversation, Nicole was there?
[00:46:24] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:46:24] Speaker 1: She was in earshot?
[00:46:27] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:46:28] Speaker 1: When she was being, when she was involved in the conversation, you were within earshot?
[00:46:32] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:46:33] Speaker 1: Brian Jr. would have been within earshot?
[00:46:36] Mr. Lally: Brian Jr. wasn't downstairs most of that morning, so he may not have been.
[00:46:41] Speaker ?: That he was there for part of the morning.
[00:46:43] Mr. Lally: Yeah, but I don't, I'm not sure that he was there at the time. My, um, uh, Lank, Officer Lank was asking questions.
[00:46:52] Speaker 1: The fact of the matter is, notwithstanding what Officer Lank wrote that you said about Caitlin leaving at 1215, she did not leave at 1215. Is that right?
[00:47:05] Mr. Lally: She did not, no.
[00:47:05] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, in truth, except for the people who lived there, Caitlin was the very last person to leave that location that morning, correct?
[00:47:15] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[00:47:17] Speaker 1: And she's admitted that she did not leave until nearly 2 a.m., 145, correct?
[00:47:21] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:47:22] Speaker 1: Sustained. You're aware that she did not leave until 145 or thereafter, is that right?
[00:47:27] Mr. Lally: I believe that's around the time, yes.
[00:47:29] Speaker 1: Were you trying to cover for Caitlin so your daughter would not be wrapped up in this investigation?
[00:47:37] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:47:41] Speaker 1: But as a reminder, when you were spoken to by the first two officers who discussed who was in the house, you never mentioned Colin was even there, correct?
[00:47:53] Speaker 4: Jackson.
[00:47:54] Speaker 3: We've gone over that. Next question, please. Sustained.
[00:48:00] Speaker 1: If Colin was gone, just like Caitlin was gone, that would eliminate them from ever being at the house at the same time as John O'Keefe and Karen Green, right?
[00:48:11] Speaker 3: Objection. Sustained.
[00:48:16] Speaker 1: On January 29th, about 1130 or 12, we talked about the fact that you were interviewed by Michael Proctor at Jen McCabe's house, correct?
[00:48:24] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:48:25] Speaker 1: You knew at the time that the state police were looking to interview Jennifer McCabe about her understanding of what had happened the night before.
[00:48:34] Speaker 3: Objection. Sustained.
[00:48:39] Speaker 1: You were notified that the state police were going to interview Jen McCabe.
[00:48:44] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:48:45] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. Were you notified that?
[00:48:49] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:48:50] Speaker 1: You knew the subject matter of an interview with Jen McCabe was going to happen over, the subject matter of the night before was going to happen over at Jen McCabe's house. That's why you went there, right?
[00:48:59] Mr. Lally: Objection. No.
[00:49:00] Speaker 3: I'll allow it.
[00:49:02] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:49:03] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that you knew you had been notified, or at least you believed, that an interview with Jen McCabe as part of an official police investigation was going to occur at her house?
[00:49:15] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:49:16] Speaker 1: You were not asked by the police to join her, correct?
[00:49:19] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:49:20] Speaker 1: You had no official reason to be at Jen McCabe's house, correct?
[00:49:26] Mr. Lally: What do you, I don't know what you mean by official reason.
[00:49:28] Speaker 1: You were not working the investigation yourself. No. You were a witness, correct?
[00:49:32] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:49:32] Speaker 1: So you had no official reason to be at Jen McCabe's house during an interview with Jen McCabe.
[00:49:36] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:49:38] Speaker 1: So, but before she gave her statement, you made sure that you were right there to monitor that interview and exactly what was said, correct?
[00:49:56] Speaker 4: Objection.
[00:49:57] Speaker 1: Were you in her house when Jen McCabe was interviewed by Michael Cocter?
[00:50:01] Mr. Lally: Her house, yes.
[00:50:03] Speaker 1: You had gone to her house, correct?
[00:50:05] Mr. Lally: I did.
[00:50:05] Speaker 1: You went there before she gave the interview?
[00:50:09] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:50:09] Speaker 1: So you were there in her house during the entirety of her interview, correct?
[00:50:15] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[00:50:16] Speaker 1: And importantly, Jen McCabe knew you were in her house during that interview, correct?
[00:50:23] Mr. Lally: I assume she knew, yes.
[00:50:25] Speaker 1: I mean, you're in her house after all.
[00:50:27] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:50:31] Speaker 1: I want to get back to 34 Fairview, if I could. In the early morning hours of January 29th, Brian Higgins directly followed you into the house after you walked in, correct?
[00:50:45] Mr. Lally: Could you rephrase that?
[00:50:46] Speaker 1: Sure. You walked in, even though there were some moving of cars, you were the first one to walk into the house. And Brian Higgins followed you. Yes.
[00:50:54] Speaker ?: All right.
[00:50:55] Speaker 1: Nicole and Caitlin then came in shortly after that.
[00:51:00] Mr. Lally: I think Nicole and Caitlin probably came in around the same time as me. And then Brian Higgins. Sorry.
[00:51:07] Speaker 1: Did you make another drink once you walked into the house?
[00:51:09] Mr. Lally: Did I make a drink?
[00:51:10] Speaker 1: Did you make a drink, grab a beer?
[00:51:13] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:51:13] Speaker 1: Okay. When I say make a drink, did you get a drink?
[00:51:16] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:51:16] Speaker 1: What drink did you get?
[00:51:18] Mr. Lally: I don't know. Probably just would have been whatever was at the house, a beer or something. Okay.
[00:51:22] Speaker 1: Did Higgins have another drink?
[00:51:24] Mr. Lally: I don't know.
[00:51:26] Speaker 1: What did you do? What did you and Brian Higgins do once you were inside the house?
[00:51:31] Mr. Lally: We just kind of hung out and talked.
[00:51:36] Speaker 1: At any point, did you and Brian Higgins go down to the basement?
[00:51:43] Mr. Lally: No, I don't remember going to the basement.
[00:51:46] Speaker 1: You don't remember going to the basement or you didn't go to the basement?
[00:51:49] Mr. Lally: No, I didn't go to the basement.
[00:51:51] Speaker 1: Did Brian Higgins go to the basement?
[00:51:53] Mr. Lally: Not that I know of.
[00:52:00] Speaker 1: And you didn't go upstairs to the basement. And you didn't go upstairs to the second floor, did you?
[00:52:03] Mr. Lally: I think I did go upstairs, yes.
[00:52:05] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that Brian Higgins has never been upstairs in your house?
[00:52:09] Mr. Lally: Prior to that night?
[00:52:10] Speaker 1: Ever. Including that night, specifically.
[00:52:14] Mr. Lally: I don't think that's true, no.
[00:52:18] Speaker 1: You owned a dog at the time, correct?
[00:52:20] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:52:21] Speaker 1: It was a German shepherd named Chloe.
[00:52:23] Mr. Lally: Yes, mix.
[00:52:24] Speaker 1: Described that dog as being not great with strangers, isn't that true?
[00:52:28] Mr. Lally: I did describe it that way, yes.
[00:52:30] Speaker 1: You testified that, quote, it started barking because it realized that people were downstairs, end quote, right?
[00:52:36] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:52:37] Speaker 1: Chloe had a penchant for barking when she heard people, correct?
[00:52:42] Mr. Lally: No, not necessarily.
[00:52:43] Speaker 1: She did that night.
[00:52:45] Mr. Lally: Yeah, I think she wanted to use the bathroom.
[00:52:47] Speaker 1: Well, that's not what you said in your testimony. You said it started barking because it realized there were people downstairs, right?
[00:52:55] Mr. Lally: Right.
[00:52:55] Speaker 1: So your German shepherd, probably a decent guard dog, if she heard commotion and people, she would bark.
[00:53:02] Speaker 4: Injection.
[00:53:03] Speaker 3: Sustained. You can ask it differently.
[00:53:05] Speaker 1: Obviously, if Chloe hears commotion and people, she's apt to bark. That's the only question.
[00:53:11] Mr. Lally: No.
[00:53:11] Speaker 1: So just that night out of nowhere, first time ever, Chloe starts barking when people walk into the house.
[00:53:17] Mr. Lally: No, it's not the first time ever, but she didn't bark often.
[00:53:20] Speaker 1: Okay. But she did bark that night, right?
[00:53:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:53:23] Speaker 1: And the reason that you gave under oath for why she started barking was because there were people downstairs milling about, right?
[00:53:29] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:53:30] Speaker 1: So in that instance, on January 29th, in the early morning hours, she was barking because she heard people.
[00:53:37] Mr. Lally: Well, I can't say why she was barking.
[00:53:39] Speaker 1: Well, you did say why she was barking.
[00:53:41] Mr. Lally: I let her out to use the bathroom. So I think that's probably why.
[00:53:44] Speaker 1: Except your testimony was it started barking because it realized there were people downstairs. Those are your words, Mr. Albert. Right.
[00:53:49] Mr. Lally: Okay.
[00:53:50] Speaker 1: Do you stand by those?
[00:53:51] Mr. Lally: Yes. Okay.
[00:53:55] Speaker 1: You ultimately did let Chloe out to go to the bathroom, correct?
[00:53:57] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:53:59] Speaker 1: And then you allowed her to stay downstairs and you monitored her with the others who were in the house. Isn't that right?
[00:54:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:54:07] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you testified in that state grand jury, the same April grand jury, April of 2022. So I let it go out to the bathroom. I let it back in. I kind of monitored it a little because we usually don't have people over the house and the dog's not great with strangers, period. So I was just making sure that the dog was all right with the people that were over, end quote, correct?
[00:54:30] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:54:31] Speaker 1: So in fact, you did keep Chloe downstairs at least for a period of time with people that were over, right?
[00:54:39] Mr. Lally: Yes, for a few minutes, I think.
[00:54:41] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, after you learned that there were questions being raised about John's injuries and dog bites and scratches, in May of 2022, you got rid of that dog, did you not?
[00:54:53] Speaker ?: Objection.
[00:54:53] Speaker 3: Sustained. You can ask it differently.
[00:54:56] Speaker 1: At some point, your family got rid of Chloe.
[00:55:02] Mr. Lally: Chloe was rehomed in May, 2020.
[00:55:05] Speaker 1: We can use whatever words we want to, rehomed, rehoused, whatever, but you got rid of her. She's no longer part of the Albert family, right?
[00:55:11] Mr. Lally: Objection. Right.
[00:55:16] Speaker 1: When did you get rid of her?
[00:55:18] Mr. Lally: So Chloe was rehomed in, I believe, May.
[00:55:21] Speaker 1: Of 2022?
[00:55:22] Mr. Lally: Of 2022.
[00:55:23] Speaker 1: Just months after the incident we were discussing.
[00:55:26] Mr. Lally: Well, after it was involved, she was involved in a dog fight with another dog out front.
[00:55:30] Speaker 1: Right, but that's also after the incident we were discussing.
[00:55:34] Mr. Lally: Yes, May.
[00:55:37] Speaker 1: That's a family pet that you had had for six years or seven years?
[00:55:40] Mr. Lally: Approximately six or seven years. I'm not sure.
[00:55:43] Speaker 1: Your explanation just now for having gotten rid of that dog is because it bit another dog and ultimately sent two women to the hospital, correct?
[00:55:52] Mr. Lally: I believe two women went to the hospital, yes.
[00:55:56] Speaker 1: But you took no action to get rid of Chloe until after you knew that serious questions were being raised about John O'Keefe's- Objection. Correct? Sustained. At some point you did realize there were questions being raised about John O'Keefe's injuries on his arm, correct?
[00:56:16] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[00:56:16] Speaker 3: They'll allow that. Did you realize that?
[00:56:19] Mr. Lally: I heard some talk about it, yes.
[00:56:25] Speaker 1: As of January of 2022, John O'Keefe had never been in your house, had he?
[00:56:31] Mr. Lally: John O'Keefe was never in my house before or after that date.
[00:56:35] Speaker 1: Certainly, John O'Keefe, you would agree with me, he would count, were he in your house, he would count as a stranger to Chloe.
[00:56:46] Mr. Lally: Hypothetically, yes.
[00:56:49] Speaker 1: I want to ask a couple of questions about your house. Where are, I know there's multiple bedrooms, are all the bedrooms on the top floor?
[00:57:01] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:57:02] Speaker 1: Okay. How many bedrooms?
[00:57:04] Mr. Lally: Five.
[00:57:05] Speaker 1: As we're looking at your house, from the street, looking at your house, are your bedroom windows, your and Nicole's bedroom windows, visible from the street?
[00:57:16] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:57:17] Speaker 1: Which windows would they be?
[00:57:19] Mr. Lally: If you were facing the house, they would be far left corner.
[00:57:24] Speaker 1: Upper or lower?
[00:57:25] Mr. Lally: Upper.
[00:57:26] Speaker 1: Upper and left corner?
[00:57:27] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:57:27] Speaker 1: How many windows? Three or two service that bedroom?
[00:57:29] Mr. Lally: Two.
[00:57:32] Speaker 1: Governor, with the court's permission, could I display exhibit 66? Okay. Do you see what is displayed on that television?
[00:57:44] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:57:45] Speaker 1: What does that appear to be to you?
[00:57:47] Mr. Lally: The house had 34 Favio Road.
[00:57:49] Speaker 1: Okay. Understanding this is a graphic representation, not a photograph, do you see the windows that you've just described servicing your bedroom on that graphic?
[00:58:02] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:58:04] Speaker 1: Are they right there?
[00:58:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:58:07] Speaker 1: Okay. Upper left, two windows, correct?
[00:58:09] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:58:09] Speaker 1: And those overlook what part of the lawn?
[00:58:12] Mr. Lally: The front lawn.
[00:58:14] Speaker 1: Okay. Front lawn toward the left side of the house, not toward the driveway, correct?
[00:58:20] Mr. Lally: Right. I mean, it's the whole front lawn, but yeah.
[00:58:23] Speaker 1: Right. But they're toward the left side of the house.
[00:58:25] Mr. Lally: The windows are, yes. I thought you asked about the view.
[00:58:28] Speaker 1: Right.
[00:58:29] Mr. Lally: So the view is the whole front yard.
[00:58:30] Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make a record, the spoken record as clear as possible. Right. They're on the left side of the house. Yes. They overlook, directly overlook, they directly overlook this portion of the lawn, the left side of the lawn.
[00:58:42] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:58:44] Speaker 1: Furthest from the driveway.
[00:58:45] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:58:49] Speaker 1: Where's your bed or where was your bed inside that room as relates to the windows?
[00:58:59] Mr. Lally: I'm just trying to think of how to describe it. So the bed would be in the middle of the bedroom.
[00:59:04] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:59:04] Speaker 1: It's a bad question on my part because we haven't done that. Let's do it this way. How many feet from the windows would the closest part of your bed be to those windows?
[00:59:13] Mr. Lally: Maybe five feet. Six feet.
[00:59:20] Speaker 1: You indicated that Nicole came to bed about two o'clock in the morning?
[00:59:24] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:59:26] Speaker 1: Where was the dog?
[00:59:28] Mr. Lally: The dog was in my room.
[00:59:30] Speaker 1: And she was sleeping on a mat in your room?
[00:59:33] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:59:34] Speaker 1: And that mat is also about six feet from the windows?
[00:59:38] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[00:59:41] Speaker 1: Six feet being from me to Ms. Little. Maybe this far?
[00:59:48] Mr. Lally: Could be, yes. Maybe a little further, but yes.
[00:59:51] Speaker 1: Maybe this far?
[00:59:52] Mr. Lally: Maybe.
[00:59:56] Speaker 1: It's a relatively quiet street, generally. Fairview.
[00:59:59] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:00:01] Speaker 1: Not an enormous amount of through traffic?
[01:00:04] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:04] Speaker 1: Not a busy freeway or a highway, correct?
[01:00:06] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:08] Speaker 1: Not an especially noisy street?
[01:00:10] Mr. Lally: The street, no.
[01:00:11] Speaker 1: Especially at 6 a.m. on a Saturday morning, right?
[01:00:13] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:00:16] Speaker 1: Where were you at 603? On the morning of January 29th, 2022?
[01:00:21] Mr. Lally: I was sleeping in my room.
[01:00:23] Speaker 1: Six feet from that window?
[01:00:25] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:00:26] Speaker 1: Was Nicole in bed with you?
[01:00:28] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:00:28] Speaker 1: Had you taken any medication the night before?
[01:00:31] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:31] Speaker 1: Were you on any sedatives?
[01:00:33] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:34] Speaker 1: Sleeping pills?
[01:00:35] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:36] Speaker 1: Were you wearing a sleep apnea machine?
[01:00:38] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:38] Speaker 1: Were you wearing an eye mask? No. Were you wearing earplugs?
[01:00:42] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:00:46] Speaker 1: You shortly thereafter became aware that six emergency vehicles, including a fire engine, police cruisers, and unmarked police vehicles, a civilian SUV, were all parked in front of your house that morning, correct?
[01:01:00] Mr. Lally: I'm not aware of what type of vehicles were parked in now.
[01:01:05] Speaker 1: You've seen photographs since this incident?
[01:01:07] Mr. Lally: Of the vehicles out front? Right. No.
[01:01:13] Speaker 1: Are you aware that all of those vehicles had their engines running?
[01:01:17] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:01:18] Speaker 1: Are you aware that all the emergency vehicles at least had their lights on, flashing lights?
[01:01:23] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:01:25] Speaker 1: Were you aware that there were a number of first responders outside their vehicles, traipsing around your lawn?
[01:01:31] Mr. Lally: Was I aware?
[01:01:32] Speaker 1: Were you aware at the time?
[01:01:34] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:01:35] Speaker 1: Were you aware that there were emergency responders, first responders, who were talking to each other over the den of the wind and the snow to communicate with each other?
[01:01:45] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:01:46] Speaker 1: Were you aware that there were three women on your lawn at one point?
[01:01:50] Mr. Lally: Just only after the fact.
[01:01:52] Speaker 1: And at least one of those women was screaming to the top of her lungs at 6 o'clock?
[01:01:57] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:01:59] Speaker 1: Again, your German shepherd was six feet from the window, correct?
[01:02:04] Mr. Lally: I don't know that for sure.
[01:02:06] Speaker 1: That's where her mat was.
[01:02:08] Mr. Lally: Well, that doesn't mean that's where she always is. She also sleeps in the closet area sometimes.
[01:02:12] Speaker 1: Oh, so now Chloe's in the closet.
[01:02:13] Mr. Lally: I didn't say she was in the closet. I said she sleeps in the closet area sometimes.
[01:02:17] Speaker 1: Was she sleeping in the closet area that morning?
[01:02:19] Mr. Lally: I don't remember.
[01:02:20] Speaker 1: Likely heard that she was sleeping on that mat five or six feet from that window, correct?
[01:02:23] Mr. Lally: Judge, I don't know.
[01:02:28] Speaker 1: And your explanation, and by the way, we've already talked about this. Earlier that day, you've already indicated she was barking because she heard people and noises downstairs when you guys came in the house.
[01:02:43] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:02:43] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:02:44] Speaker 1: And your explanation is that you and Nicole and Chloe, the German shepherd, all slept through the entirety of that commotion on your front lawn.
[01:02:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:02:58] Speaker 1: To be clear, you are a trained first responder.
[01:03:02] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:03:04] Speaker 1: Yet during that entire event, after you were awakened, all that chaos on your front lawn, you never came out of your house to assist or investigate in any matter whatsoever, did you, Mr. Albert?
[01:03:18] Mr. Lally: Once I was awakened?
[01:03:19] Speaker 1: Correct.
[01:03:20] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:03:25] Speaker 1: We've talked about this a little bit, but I want to ask you a couple of other questions about the layout of the house. The house is sitting on top of a basement, correct? Yes. Describe how you get to the basement from inside the house if you come in the front door. And when I say, I'm sorry to do this, I don't mean to interrupt you. There's two front doors that you go in, correct?
[01:03:49] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:03:51] Speaker 1: For purposes of my question, Mr. Albert, I'm going to talk about the one that's right in front of you, the obvious one, as the front door, and the one to the right of it, as you're looking at the house, is the side door. Okay? Okay. Because I don't know how else to describe it. If you come in the front door, describe for the jurors, where is the basement door as compared to that?
[01:04:11] Mr. Lally: So, you walk straight ahead, you pass the kitchen, dining room area, opening on your right-hand side, and there's a door on the left.
[01:04:22] Speaker 1: How many paces, the door opens, how many paces to walk over and grab that door handle?
[01:04:30] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure.
[01:04:31] Speaker 1: I'm not sure how many paces, but I'm not sure how many paces, but I'm not sure how many paces, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there.
[01:04:39] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there, but I'm not sure how many paces are out there. You know, six feet?
[01:04:53] Speaker 1: Six feet?
[01:04:54] Mr. Lally: Six to eight feet, maybe.
[01:04:55] Speaker 1: Got it. What was the basement used for in January of 2022?
[01:05:03] Mr. Lally: So the basement had a weight room in one of the rooms, and the other room was nothing at the time. It had been damaged, water damaged, due to an overflowed toilet.
[01:05:16] Speaker 1: So part of the flooring had been ripped up?
[01:05:18] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:19] Speaker 1: And that opened up some slab concrete downstairs?
[01:05:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:24] Speaker 1: There was also some plywood downstairs?
[01:05:26] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:27] Speaker 1: There were a couple of mats where the actual weights were, so they're not slamming down onto concrete?
[01:05:31] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:32] Speaker 1: But there was a good amount of that floor that was just exposed concrete?
[01:05:36] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:39] Speaker 1: The workout equipment would include things like, what, barbells, dumbbells?
[01:05:43] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:44] Speaker 1: Heavy weights?
[01:05:45] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:46] Speaker 1: Heavy bars?
[01:05:47] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:48] Speaker 1: Made from metal?
[01:05:49] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:05:56] Speaker 1: Once you're down in the basement, by the way, there's two flights that you go down at angles to get to the basement. A series of steps, a landing, take a left, another series of steps, and you stand on the basement.
[01:06:10] Mr. Lally: Yes, not a long staircase, very small, but... Right.
[01:06:14] Speaker 1: I mean, it's narrow and tight, but in other words, you don't just walk straight down a staircase. You go down to a landing, turn left.
[01:06:21] Mr. Lally: Turns a little.
[01:06:22] Speaker 1: Go down, turn left again, and now you're in the basement. Yes. If you wanted to move something large or heavy out of that basement without having to go through the house, could you do that?
[01:06:37] Speaker 4: I'll allow it.
[01:06:37] Speaker 1: I'll allow it.
[01:06:43] Mr. Lally: Could you rephrase the question?
[01:06:45] Speaker 1: I'll say it again. If you wanted to move something large or heavy out of that basement without having to go through the main house, could you do that?
[01:06:53] Mr. Lally: Yes, it would depend on what it was, obviously, how big it was.
[01:06:58] Speaker 1: How would you do that?
[01:07:00] Mr. Lally: There's a bulkhead door you can use.
[01:07:02] Speaker 1: Got it. Where does that bulkhead door come out of?
[01:07:04] Mr. Lally: It comes out to the backyard right at the kitchen area. You can, you can see it from the kitchen.
[01:07:13] Speaker 1: And right to the left of that is the side fence.
[01:07:17] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:07:19] Speaker 1: And directly through that side fence is the front yard.
[01:07:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:07:24] Speaker 1: The same side of the front yard as John O'Keefe's body was found.
[01:07:29] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:07:34] Speaker 1: May I approach?
[01:07:35] Speaker 3: Yes.
[01:07:39] Speaker 1: Do you see the, what's depicted on the television screen?
[01:08:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:08:06] Speaker 1: Does that appear to be the same as what you said? As what you're holding right there, that, that exhibit?
[01:08:11] Mr. Lally: It does, yes.
[01:08:12] Speaker 1: Okay. I'm going to direct your attention, if I could, to the lower left portion of this photograph. And right there. Do you see that? Tell me what that is.
[01:08:24] Mr. Lally: I can't.
[01:08:25] Speaker 1: Let me, let me highlight it one more time. Right there. Maybe it's easier if you look on your photograph.
[01:08:33] Mr. Lally: Are you referring to the doorknob? I got, I got it here. Yes.
[01:08:37] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I was sort of hitting on that photograph, so I apologize. Is that the door that swings open or closed to close off the basement?
[01:08:49] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:08:50] Speaker 1: Then if you open that door, it's in the open position now, correct?
[01:08:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:08:54] Speaker 1: So the photographer is standing in the basement looking toward the doorway, correct? Yes. Then you climb seven or eight stairs.
[01:09:04] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:09:05] Speaker 1: And that bulkhead door, which is where all the light is emanating, how does that open?
[01:09:12] Mr. Lally: So the bulkhead door opens straight up.
[01:09:15] Speaker 1: Okay. At least in that photograph, it was hinged toward the house and it would open up like a, I don't know, like a sandwich or something.
[01:09:22] Mr. Lally: It opens straight up to the bay windows that are in the kitchen.
[01:09:26] Speaker 1: Got it. Okay. Okay. That's all I need for that photograph. Your Honor, I have a flash drive with a video on it. I'd ask that this be marked as next in order, court's permission.
[01:09:42] Speaker 4: Assuming it's the same one, no objection.
[01:09:44] Speaker 1: It's the same one.
[01:09:45] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:09:46] Speaker 1: I think it's at 69. Thank you. Mr. Albert, I want to ask you to take a look in just a second at a video and then describe if you recognize what's in that video. I'll probably play maybe five or ten seconds of it and then pause it. Do you recognize what's depicted in that video at least up to that point? Do you recognize what's depicted in that video at least up to that point?
[01:10:26] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:10:28] Speaker 1: Does that look like your basement door, although the bulkhead doors have been replaced differently?
[01:10:35] Mr. Lally: The whole thing looks different to me.
[01:10:37] Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and play the video.
[01:10:38] Speaker 5: Just a second. Pause. Now you recognize what's depicted in the video.
[01:10:49] Mr. Lally: Yes. What is that? So that was my backyard.
[01:10:52] Speaker 1: Okay. And what area is over to the left over here?
[01:10:59] Mr. Lally: That's a gate.
[01:11:02] Speaker 1: Okay. And what does that gate open up to?
[01:11:05] Mr. Lally: To the front yard.
[01:11:07] Speaker 1: So the area that we're looking at right now, where the photographer is standing, is the backyard?
[01:11:12] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:11:13] Speaker 1: Now having seen that, notwithstanding the way that the bulkhead doors opened, now do you recognize what was depicted at the beginning of the video, which was that staircase?
[01:11:23] Mr. Lally: Yes. The downstairs door, the door itself, the wooden door itself also looks different.
[01:11:28] Speaker 1: Okay. So, but it is...
[01:11:29] Mr. Lally: But it is the stairway, yes.
[01:11:32] Speaker 1: Going into the basement? Yes. Or coming out of the basement? Yes. So in other words, another way to put that is, that represented the ingress and egress through the bulkhead to the basement? Yes. Okay. Let's go ahead and play this. Did you recognize what was depicted in the video? Bring the lights up. Thank you. Thank you, Your Honor. Did you recognize what was depicted in the video as it continued to play? Yes. Describe that for the jurors, please.
[01:12:40] Mr. Lally: It looked like the video was from walking from the backyard towards the front yard.
[01:12:45] Speaker 1: So, the video started at the bulkhead door, turned toward the fence, went through the fence, and right up toward the flagpole, correct?
[01:12:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:12:56] Speaker 1: Is that an accurate representation of the layout of the house where you lived there on January 28th, 29th, 2022? Yes. With the exception of the bulkhead door having been replaced and maybe the basement door?
[01:13:08] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:13:10] Speaker 1: By the way, the 34th Fairview House had been in your family at that time in 2022 for two generations?
[01:13:23] Mr. Lally: My parents built the house in the late 70s, 79 maybe.
[01:13:28] Speaker 1: So, if your parents are one generation, you and your family are another generation, two generations.
[01:13:33] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:13:33] Speaker 1: Nearly, maybe actually a little more than 50 years, half a century.
[01:13:39] Mr. Lally: That what?
[01:13:40] Speaker 1: That it was the Albert home?
[01:13:42] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:13:44] Speaker 1: The fact is, you listed that house for sale for the first time ever in November of 2022, correct?
[01:13:54] Mr. Lally: That's the time we listed it, yes.
[01:13:56] Speaker 1: Just months after John O'Keefe was found on your lawn?
[01:14:00] Mr. Lally: Jackson.
[01:14:01] Speaker 1: Mr. Dean? Mr. Albert, is that timing, according to you, a coincidence?
[01:14:09] Mr. Lally: Is what?
[01:14:10] Speaker 1: Is that timing a coincidence?
[01:14:12] Mr. Lally: Well, that's not the timing, actually. We contacted the realtor in 2021, finally listed it in 2022.
[01:14:19] Speaker 1: Got it.
[01:14:19] Mr. Lally: So, that would be pre-incident.
[01:14:22] Speaker 1: So, the listing coming nine months after John O'Keefe was found dead in your lawn, dying in your lawn, that's just coincidence. You had this in place long before that.
[01:14:32] Speaker 4: Jackson.
[01:14:34] Speaker 3: So, I'll sustain the question. You can ask it differently.
[01:14:37] Speaker 1: Sure. All I'm asking is the timing, November of 2022, listing that house for sale for the first time in November. That, in your mind, is just a coincidence?
[01:14:49] Mr. Lally: It's not a coincidence, because we started trying to look into selling the house in 2021, which was the few months prior to the incident.
[01:14:58] Speaker 1: On January 28th, 2022, you were still an active Boston police officer, correct?
[01:15:04] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:15:05] Speaker 1: What was your job title in January 2022?
[01:15:07] Mr. Lally: Sergeant detective.
[01:15:08] Speaker 1: That means you not only respond to incidents, you actually conduct investigations as a detective, correct?
[01:15:16] Mr. Lally: Yes. Primarily fugitive investigations.
[01:15:18] Speaker 1: You have additional training in order to hold the title and hold the position as a detective. Is that right?
[01:15:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:15:24] Speaker 1: Not just a regular patrol officer. You have to have special training to get to the rank of detective. Is that right?
[01:15:30] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:15:31] Speaker 1: As a sergeant detective, that's above a regular detective, indeed, because you're a supervising detective. Is that right?
[01:15:38] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:15:38] Speaker 1: You have experience and training in order to hold that position as a supervisor in the detective's spot as well.
[01:15:46] Mr. Lally: Yes. There are civil service tests for the rank, but yes.
[01:15:49] Speaker 1: And you've investigated crimes, I mean, I'm guessing just a ton of different types of crimes, including assaults, manslaughter, homicides, kidnappings, things of that nature. No. You've never investigated anything like that. No. So what's the parameters of your investigative skills as you held that title of sergeant detective?
[01:16:11] Mr. Lally: So my parameters were investigating fugitive investigations. That was my specialty, I guess you could say.
[01:16:19] Speaker 1: So you've responded to, obviously, to countless incidents and scenes as both a patrol officer as well as a detective. Yes. You've supervised the investigation of at least the fugitive type of crimes, correct? Yes. Fugitives trying to thwart investigators to try to find them, right? Yes. That's their whole, it's the cat and mouse thing, right?
[01:16:40] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:16:41] Speaker 1: You being the cat, correct?
[01:16:44] Mr. Lally: Sometimes.
[01:16:45] Speaker 1: You're also trained in techniques, obviously, any detective would be trained in techniques that culprits might use or suspects might use to sort of cover up investigations. I'm sorry, to cover up crimes to thwart investigations, correct?
[01:17:00] Speaker 3: Jackson. Do you have that training, sir? No.
[01:17:04] Speaker 1: So you, in all of your training, 30 years as a boss, and as a sergeant detective, you don't have any training in what techniques criminals might use to try to cover up their conduct?
[01:17:16] Mr. Lally: No. I've never gone to a training for criminals to cover up conduct, no.
[01:17:20] Speaker 1: Never been trained in the fact that, I don't know, somebody might want to clean up blood at a scene.
[01:17:26] Mr. Lally: No. Jackson.
[01:17:27] Speaker 1: What about sanitizing a location?
[01:17:31] Mr. Lally: Jackson.
[01:17:33] Speaker 1: I'll allow it.
[01:17:34] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:17:34] Speaker 1: What about getting rid of electronic data? You've got to have training in that.
[01:17:39] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:17:39] Speaker 1: In other words, the fugitives that you chase down and try to find, you don't try to utilize electronic data to go after them?
[01:17:53] Mr. Lally: Sometimes we do, but I don't have any training in it per se.
[01:17:58] Speaker 1: Things like GPS data, phone calls, text messages, communications, things of that nature, obvious.
[01:18:05] Mr. Lally: Yes. Yes.
[01:18:07] Speaker 1: Clearly. These are all things that, at least those things are things that if you didn't have formal training, you got on the job training and just have common sense about how to go after these type of, this type of evidence, correct?
[01:18:21] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:18:22] Speaker 1: Sir, you had an iPhone with a number ending in 0888 back in January 2022. Did you not?
[01:18:30] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:18:31] Speaker 1: How many years did you have that iPhone as of January 28, 2022?
[01:18:36] Mr. Lally: Of several years. I'm not sure how many, but multiple years.
[01:18:42] Speaker 1: And Mr. Albert, you were notified by the Commonwealth that on September 23rd, 2022, in the fall of 2022, a judge specifically ordered that you were to preserve that phone. Objection, Your Honor. Correct?
[01:18:56] Speaker 3: I'll see counsel at sidebar.
[01:19:02] Speaker 1: You are currently represented by Mr. Henniger.
[01:19:05] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:19:05] Speaker 1: Seated behind me. The gentleman right there. Yes. In the gray suit. Correct? Yes. Okay. Without telling me anything you've ever communicated with him, when did you hire him as your lawyer?
[01:19:19] Mr. Lally: I'm not exactly sure of the date.
[01:19:21] Speaker 1: Give me a time frame. Let's see if you can narrow it down.
[01:19:27] Mr. Lally: 2022. I'm just not sure. I'm just not sure the exact date or even the month.
[01:19:35] Speaker 1: For the end of 2022?
[01:19:38] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure. I believe the prior to some of the other testimony that I gave. So, prior to...
[01:19:49] Speaker 1: Prior to April of 2022? The state grand jury?
[01:19:54] Mr. Lally: No. Prior to the other testimony.
[01:19:57] Speaker 1: Okay. That was in June of 2023. That's my question. Did you hire Mr. Hennig in 2023 in anticipation of giving testimony in June of 2023?
[01:20:07] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure of the exact date. I believe it was maybe the end of 2022. I'm not sure.
[01:20:16] Speaker 1: Did you get a subpoena for the other hearing?
[01:20:19] Mr. Lally: I did.
[01:20:20] Speaker 1: Okay. Did you hire Mr. Hennig after you got that subpoena?
[01:20:25] Mr. Lally: I can't say... I believe so. Right around that time, yes. Okay. I'm just trying to remember the time and I can't remember it. Okay.
[01:20:31] Speaker 1: So, you did not hire...
[01:20:33] Speaker 5: Well, Your Honor, I think that answers the question. You're not represented in place.
[01:20:41] Speaker 3: I'm going to see it sidebar about the extent of the inquiry.
[01:20:48] Speaker 1: May I interrupt? Yes. Thank you. You had received... I want to draw your attention to 2023 now. I'm sorry. Now I'm doing it. The fall of 2022, September of 2022.
[01:21:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:21:04] Speaker 1: Did you receive a notice on Commonwealth letterhead indicating that you were not to destroy or in any way manipulate any data on your cell phone, destroy the phone itself, or to manipulate or destroy any data on that cell phone?
[01:21:21] Mr. Lally: I do not remember getting that letter. No.
[01:21:26] Speaker 1: I'm going to read this for the record, Your Honor, if I may, with course permission. Yes. Did you receive a letter that said, in essence, not even in essence, it should be quoted as the following, quote, You, Mr. Albert, are hereby notified that the defense in the case of Commonwealth v. Kieran Reed, Norfolk Superior Court, criminal case number 22-117, has filed a motion pursuant to Mass R-Crim P-17, for the production of any cell phones that you used between January 28, 2022 and February 28, 2022, and/or any data associated with those cell phones, period. The hearing on Ms. Reed's motion will be held on October 3, 2022 at 2:00 p.m. in Courtroom 1 of the Norfolk Superior Court. You may be heard on the motion at that time. You are hereby placed on notice that these cell phones are the subject of pending litigation, and you must not alter, delete, destroy, or in any way manipulate any of these electronic data associated with the cell phones at issue, period, end quote. Did you receive a notice from the Commonwealth with that language?
[01:22:41] Mr. Lally: I don't remember receiving that document, no.
[01:22:44] Speaker 1: Were you told in any other capacity that you were not to get rid of or delete your cell phone, in other words, preserve your phone?
[01:22:52] Mr. Lally: Subsequent to me upgrading my phone, I spoke with the DA's office, so after that, they told me via a phone call that that was the case.
[01:23:04] Speaker 1: So, your testimony is, you never received the notice that I just read, but you did talk to the DA, and he told you to preserve, you were on notice that you were to preserve your phone?
[01:23:16] Mr. Lally: After.
[01:23:17] Speaker 1: I don't want to say that, Mr. Albert. My question is, did you have the conversation with Mr. Lally?
[01:23:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:23:23] Speaker 1: Okay, when was that conversation, sir?
[01:23:25] Mr. Lally: So, I don't have the exact date of the conversation, I'm not sure.
[01:23:29] Speaker 1: Who did you talk to on the phone exactly? Was it Mr. Lally alone, or was it a conference call?
[01:23:34] Mr. Lally: It was a conference call.
[01:23:35] Speaker 1: Who else was on that conference call?
[01:23:36] Mr. Lally: I believe Steve Nelson, and other witnesses in the case were on the conference call.
[01:23:45] Speaker 1: Can you name those witnesses for us?
[01:23:47] Mr. Lally: I believe it was Brian Higgins, I believe Jen McCabe, Matt McCabe, and maybe somebody else, but I can't recall.
[01:24:01] Speaker 1: Who initiated that conference call?
[01:24:05] Mr. Lally: I believe it was somebody in the DA's office, so either Mr. Lally or Steve Nelson, somebody like that.
[01:24:13] Speaker 1: Did everybody just call into a central number, a conference line?
[01:24:17] Mr. Lally: Yes. Yes.
[01:24:19] Speaker 1: And what exactly did Mr. Lally say to you during the course of that conversation about preserving your phone?
[01:24:27] Mr. Lally: During the conversation, Mr. Lally said that the defense had filed a motion to ask for the phones to be preserved.
[01:24:39] Speaker 1: And anything else?
[01:24:41] Mr. Lally: That's what I remember, that's what I remember him saying.
[01:24:44] Speaker 1: Did you volunteer that, oh my goodness, I just upgraded my phone last week from being here. I don't have that phone anymore.
[01:24:51] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:24:51] Speaker 1: You didn't say that to Mr. Lally?
[01:24:53] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:24:54] Speaker 1: You just took the information that he gave you and hung up the phone and went about your business.
[01:24:58] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:24:58] Speaker 1: Without notifying him that the very phone that he had just ordered you to preserve had just been destroyed days earlier.
[01:25:05] Mr. Lally: No, the phone wasn't destroyed. I upgraded the phone.
[01:25:08] Speaker 1: The data was destroyed, sir, correct?
[01:25:13] Mr. Lally: I did not destroy any data on any phone.
[01:25:15] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert.
[01:25:17] Mr. Lally: I upgraded my phone.
[01:25:19] Speaker 1: When you upgrade a phone, you know that the phone is set back to factory reset before your new phone is handed to you, correct? Happens every time.
[01:25:26] Mr. Lally: I don't know that.
[01:25:28] Speaker 1: So if you have personal texts with your doctor, personal communications with Mr. Henning, your lawyer, you're just going to hand that to a pimply-faced kid at Best Buy and say, here's my phone? You know that data is destroyed when you upgrade your phone, right?
[01:25:44] Mr. Lally: I think some things come over across contacts, things like that, so I don't know that for sure.
[01:25:49] Speaker 1: You can back up your data, sir, but the phone data is destroyed for all purposes. It's factory reset, correct?
[01:25:57] Mr. Lally: I don't know that.
[01:25:58] Speaker 1: Oh, you have a phone. That's an iPhone.
[01:26:03] Mr. Lally: Years.
[01:26:04] Speaker 1: How many times have you upgraded your iPhone?
[01:26:06] Mr. Lally: Multiple times.
[01:26:07] Speaker 1: Every single time you upgrade it. You know that the phone prior, the data is destroyed on it, correct?
[01:26:15] Mr. Lally: Usually my contacts come over and my photos come over.
[01:26:18] Speaker 1: So that's a backup.
[01:26:20] Mr. Lally: No, I don't have, I don't think I have that on backup, but okay.
[01:26:25] Speaker 1: Irrespective, you didn't tell Mr. Lally that you had gotten rid of that phone.
[01:26:29] Mr. Lally: I was not asked that and I didn't tell him that.
[01:26:31] Speaker 1: I see. You felt like if you weren't asked that, you didn't need to volunteer it, even though the conference call was specifically about preserving your phone pursuant to a judge's order, correct?
[01:26:41] Mr. Lally: What was the question?
[01:26:43] Speaker 1: You didn't offer to Mr. Lally that you had gotten rid of the very phone that he was telling you had to be preserved due to a judge's order.
[01:26:52] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[01:26:53] Speaker 1: And you didn't seek any advice from, I'm not asking you for the communications. You did not seek any advice from counsel at that time for those purposes.
[01:27:02] Mr. Lally: I don't believe I did, no.
[01:27:07] Speaker 1: At some point, you indicated, Mr. Albert, at another proceeding, under oath, in relation to a conversation that you had with Brian Higgins about your phone. Quote, I don't recall saying I was going to get rid of my personal phone to Brian Higgins. I may have said that. You know, there's personal stuff on my phone. But I don't recall saying that to him. But I don't know. We had multiple conversations about things. You remember saying that at another hearing?
[01:27:41] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:27:42] Speaker 1: You literally admitted at that hearing there's personal private data on that phone. Hence, you got rid of it, right?
[01:27:54] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:27:55] Speaker 1: You certainly wouldn't allow some kid at the AT&T store to have your personal private data. You're a cop.
[01:28:02] Mr. Lally: No, I assume he doesn't have it.
[01:28:04] Speaker 1: Why would you assume that?
[01:28:06] Mr. Lally: Because he took the phone and has it.
[01:28:09] Speaker 1: And what do you think happens to the data on the phone, sir? Let's just use common sense. What do you honestly think happens to the data on the phone when you turn it in and upgrade your phone?
[01:28:20] Mr. Lally: I'm sure that the data's not there anymore, I'm sure.
[01:28:23] Speaker 1: It's destroyed, sir, correct?
[01:28:26] Mr. Lally: I don't know that for a fact. I know that some things are transferred back to the new phone.
[01:28:31] Speaker 1: You just said you know the data is not there.
[01:28:34] Mr. Lally: Some data, I guess, isn't. Yes.
[01:28:38] Speaker 1: No, that's all I have.
[01:28:39] Speaker 3: All right. Mr. Lally, any questions?
[01:28:41] Speaker ?: No, you're not. Okay.
[01:28:43] Speaker 3: All right, I'm going to take a short recess. I want to let this witness, if he chooses to, to have a few minutes. All right, Mr. Jackson, go right ahead.
[01:28:53] Speaker 1: Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Albert, you were notified by the Commonwealth that on September 23rd, 2022, a judge specifically ordered you to preserve that phone and all its data. The phone ending in 0888. Is that right?
[01:29:13] Mr. Lally: At what time are you asking me that I was notified?
[01:29:16] Speaker 1: That day or the next?
[01:29:18] Mr. Lally: On the 23rd?
[01:29:19] Speaker 1: On the 23rd or the 24th of September?
[01:29:21] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:29:21] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that you were provided a letter by the Commonwealth that stated the following? Your Honor, if I may read this?
[01:29:30] Speaker 3: Yes, there's no objection. Thank you.
[01:29:32] Speaker 1: Quote, "You are hereby notified that the defense in the case of Commonwealth versus Karen Reed, Norfolk Superior Criminal Case, sorry, Norfolk Superior Court Criminal Case number 22-117 has filed a motion pursuant to Mass R-Crim P-17 for the production of any cell phones that you used between January 28, 2022, and February 28, 2022, and/or any data associated with those cell phones. The hearing on Ms. Reed's motion will be held on October 3rd, 2022, at 2:00 PM, in courtroom 1 of the Norfolk Superior Court. You may be heard on the motion at that time. You are hereby placed on notice that these cell phones are the subject of pending litigation, and you must not alter, delete, destroy, or in any way manipulate any of the electronic data associated with the cell phone at issue." You received input, you received that notice on either the 23rd or the 24th, is that right?
[01:30:42] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[01:30:43] Speaker 1: Governor, I would pose a stipulation. I spoke with counsel off the record, if I may.
[01:30:51] Speaker 3: You both have a stipulation that I haven't seen?
[01:30:54] Speaker 1: We just determined I'm happy to approach it.
[01:30:57] Speaker 3: Why don't we approach quickly?
[01:31:04] Speaker 1: Governor, I would offer the following stipulation that on either September 23rd or September 24th, the Commonwealth sent a letter on Commonwealth letterhead to Mr. Albert's attention, stating exactly what was just read into the record, pursuant to the court order dated September 23rd, 2022.
[01:31:27] Speaker 3: Okay. All right, next question.
[01:31:32] Speaker 1: Thank you, Your Honor. Isn't it true that you were in fact ordered to preserve your cell phone by the Commonwealth?
[01:31:42] Mr. Lally: At some point I was made aware of that, yes.
[01:31:44] Speaker 1: All right, let's just get to the brass tacks. Where's your phone?
[01:31:49] Mr. Lally: My phone was upgraded and traded in for a new phone.
[01:31:54] Speaker 1: Your phone was upgraded and traded in for a new phone?
[01:31:57] Mr. Lally: Yes. Okay.
[01:31:58] Speaker 1: Another way to say that is you traded your phone in and got rid of it, correct?
[01:32:04] Mr. Lally: I traded my phone and upgraded it, yes.
[01:32:07] Speaker 1: When did you get rid of your phone ending in 0888?
[01:32:11] Mr. Lally: I upgraded my phone in September, third week of September, maybe around 22nd.
[01:32:19] Speaker 1: The 22nd of September?
[01:32:20] Mr. Lally: I believe so. I can't be sure of the exact date.
[01:32:23] Speaker 1: So according to you, you got rid of the phone that was the subject of a court order preservation the day before it was ordered preserved, right?
[01:32:38] Mr. Lally: What's the, rephrase the question please.
[01:32:41] Speaker 1: This order, it was just stipulated, this order is dated September 23rd, 2022. It was just stipulated that on the 23rd or 24th, you were then sent a notice to preserve the phone. And your testimony is on the 22nd, the day before this all happened, you upgraded your phone and got rid of it in total, correct?
[01:33:08] Mr. Lally: I upgraded my phone on, on and around the 22nd, yes.
[01:33:12] Speaker 1: And you knew that all of the data on that phone would be factory reset and destroyed?
[01:33:19] Mr. Lally: Objection. Do you know that, sir? I do not know that.
[01:33:22] Speaker 1: How many times have you upgraded your phone in your iPhone?
[01:33:25] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure, four or five times, maybe.
[01:33:28] Speaker 1: You're aware that when you turn a phone in and you upgrade it, the phone that you turn in, that data is factory reset, meaning it's gone. It's destroyed off of that device, correct?
[01:33:38] Mr. Lally: Well, I think some data transfers and some doesn't.
[01:33:40] Speaker 1: We're not talking about a backup. I'm talking about the physical, the physical phone. That physical phone becomes a brick when you turn it in, correct?
[01:33:53] Mr. Lally: Correct, that it becomes a brick? I don't know.
[01:33:56] Speaker 1: It becomes effectively a brick. There is no data left on the phone. I'm not talking about backup data onto a cloud. I'm talking about that phone.
[01:34:04] Mr. Lally: So the old phone, yes.
[01:34:06] Speaker 1: Yeah. It's just, everything on it's destroyed, correct?
[01:34:09] Mr. Lally: Right, although some trans, some of the data transfers to your new phone.
[01:34:13] Speaker 1: And you're aware that the very data that you were ordered to preserve would have been destroyed, according to you, according to you, the day before. Correct?
[01:34:28] Mr. Lally: Rephrase the question and ask me a question.
[01:34:29] Speaker 1: If you're, if you're, are you claiming that you got rid of your phone on the 22nd?
[01:34:35] Mr. Lally: I upgraded my phone around that. I'm not sure if that's the exact date, but yes.
[01:34:39] Speaker 1: So it could have been after the 22nd?
[01:34:41] Mr. Lally: I don't think it was after the 22nd.
[01:34:43] Speaker 1: Could have been the 24th?
[01:34:45] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:34:45] Speaker 1: Could have been the 25th?
[01:34:46] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:34:47] Speaker 1: So you're absolutely sure that you could not have upgraded your phone and gotten rid of it any time after the 23rd when this judge ordered that it be preserved?
[01:34:58] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:34:59] Speaker 1: Because you know that if you got rid of that phone after you had been notified that you were ordered by a court to preserve it, you'd be committing a felony.
[01:35:07] Speaker 4: Objection, Your Honor. Sustained.
[01:35:13] Speaker 1: So you now claim that you got rid of the phone on September 22nd, 2022. Hours before you were ordered to preserve it. That's your testimony, correct?
[01:35:27] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:35:30] Speaker 1: Is that just a coincidence?
[01:35:33] Mr. Lally: September 4th was my birthday. The phone was broken and failing. I had planned on getting a new phone, and that just happened to be the day that I got it.
[01:35:42] Speaker 1: Happy birthday. Was that a coincidence?
[01:35:47] Speaker ?: Objection.
[01:35:48] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[01:35:51] Speaker 1: You were asked at another hearing in June of 2023. That exact question, correct? Whether it was a coincidence. Do you remember that?
[01:36:02] Mr. Lally: I don't.
[01:36:04] Speaker 1: You recall being asked, quote, So it's just a coincidence that within minutes, hours or days.
[01:36:10] Speaker 4: Jackson, Your Honor.
[01:36:13] Speaker 3: Let's hear the question first.
[01:36:14] Speaker 1: Within minutes, hours or days of you trading in your phone, that phone you had in January of 2022, that you were ordered to preserve it? Answer. Yes. Question. That's a coincidence. Answer. Yes.
[01:36:29] Speaker 4: Jackson, move to strike.
[01:36:30] Speaker 3: I'll let that stand.
[01:36:33] Speaker 1: That was your testimony, wasn't it? Yes. And that's what you're saying today to these jurors. Yeah. Just a coincidence.
[01:36:39] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:36:46] Speaker 1: Did you and Brian Higgins agree with each other that you're both going to get rid of your phones?
[01:36:54] Speaker 4: Objection.
[01:36:54] Speaker 3: I'll allow that.
[01:36:55] Speaker 4: No.
[01:36:58] Speaker 1: You told, you testified at the other hearing in June of 2022, quote, I don't recall saying that I was going to get rid of my personal phone to Brian Higgins. I may have said that, you know, there's personal stuff on my personal phone, but I don't recall saying that to him, but I don't know. We had multiple conversations about things, end quote. You remember testifying to that?
[01:37:22] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:37:24] Speaker 1: So you're not ruling out the fact that you may have told Brian Higgins that you intended to get rid of your phone, correct?
[01:37:31] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:37:32] Speaker 1: You're not ruling out the fact that Brian Higgins may have told you that he intended to get rid of his phone?
[01:37:39] Mr. Lally: No, I don't remember him saying that to me.
[01:37:42] Speaker 1: Your testimony was, quote, I know there were conversations about the phones. I just can't say if he was going to get rid of his phone or not, end quote. You testified to that, didn't you?
[01:37:53] Mr. Lally: Yeah, I have no idea what he was going to do.
[01:37:55] Speaker 1: I'm asking, are those your words? Did you testify to that under Oak?
[01:38:00] Mr. Lally: Yes. Although I don't know the context of the time that they were asking that question.
[01:38:04] Speaker 1: June of 2020.
[01:38:05] Mr. Lally: No, not the date of the hearing, but when they were asking if and when that conversation took place.
[01:38:11] Speaker 1: Does it really matter when it took place?
[01:38:14] Mr. Lally: I think so, yes.
[01:38:16] Speaker 1: When you talked to Brian Higgins about getting rid of your phones, when do you think you had that conversation?
[01:38:21] Mr. Lally: I don't think I talked to Brian Higgins about getting rid of my phones.
[01:38:23] Speaker 1: Well, you just said you can't rule out the fact that you had conversations with Brian Higgins about your phones and possibly getting rid of your phones, right?
[01:38:33] Mr. Lally: No, I don't think that's what I said.
[01:38:36] Speaker 1: You two discussed the fact that you both wanted to get rid of your phones.
[01:38:41] Mr. Lally: I don't remember having that conversation with Brian Higgins at all.
[01:38:44] Speaker 1: Your testimony was, quote, "I know there were conversations about the phones, sir," correct?
[01:38:53] Mr. Lally: Correct that that's what you're reading.
[01:38:55] Speaker 1: So if you're having conversations with Brian Higgins about the phones, what the heck were you talking about?
[01:39:02] Mr. Lally: I don't know the timing of when they asked when those conversations were.
[01:39:05] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, I'm leaving it open to you. I don't care when it was. I'm asking you, have you ever had a conversation with Brian Higgins about your phones, respectively?
[01:39:19] Mr. Lally: We may have. I just don't, I can't remember that conversation specifically.
[01:39:22] Speaker 1: Then why in June of 2023 did you testify, "I know there were conversations about the phones with Brian Higgins," end quote?
[01:39:32] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure of the context of that.
[01:39:35] Speaker 1: So now you just can't remember?
[01:39:36] Mr. Lally: No, I don't think I could remember during that testimony either. I think if you read the whole thing, I think I said I'm not sure. I don't remember.
[01:39:45] Speaker 1: Your quote was, "I know there were conversations about the phones. I just can't say if he said he was going to get rid of his phone or not," end quote.
[01:39:57] Mr. Lally: Right, right.
[01:39:57] Speaker 1: Does that help refresh your recollection?
[01:39:58] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:39:59] Speaker 1: So now as you sit here and you answer my question, did you and Brian Higgins have a conversation about your phones?
[01:40:06] Mr. Lally: I don't remember having that conversation with Brian Higgins.
[01:40:11] Speaker 1: All right. Let's shift gears. Before I shift gears. You're aware that Brian Higgins has also gotten rid of his phone, correct?
[01:40:30] Mr. Lally: I am not aware of that until after the time you're talking about.
[01:40:37] Speaker 1: So without qualifying your answer, answer my question. As you sit here, you're aware that Brian Higgins has also gotten rid of his phone.
[01:40:46] Mr. Lally: I know at some point Brian Higgins.
[01:40:48] Speaker 3: Yes or no, Mr. Albert?
[01:40:50] Mr. Lally: Did he? Jackson, Your Honor.
[01:40:51] Speaker 3: Can you answer that, yes or no, sir?
[01:40:54] Mr. Lally: Yes. Okay.
[01:40:59] Speaker 1: Now I'd like to shift gears. I'm talking a little bit about Michael Proctor. Did Michael Proctor come into your home at 34 Fairview on January 29th?
[01:41:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:41:07] Speaker 1: Michael Proctor? Let me rephrase the question. I want to make sure we're, I'm not talking about Officer Lange, Officer Good. Right. Michael Proctor from the Massachusetts State Police. Did he come into your home on January 29th?
[01:41:23] Mr. Lally: He conducted an interview with my wife and I don't remember if it was the 29th or the 30th. That's what you're asking.
[01:41:32] Speaker 1: Wasn't that interview on February 3rd?
[01:41:37] Mr. Lally: I feel like it was earlier than that, but it could have been February 3rd.
[01:41:40] Speaker 1: Okay. Presumed for purposes of my question that it was February 3rd that Michael Proctor interviewed your wife. Then he would not have come into your home on the 29th, 30th, 31st, the 1st, or the 2nd?
[01:41:54] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:41:56] Speaker 1: And you know from your training, obviously, as a first responder, the first 48 hours of an investigation are absolutely critical, correct?
[01:42:03] Mr. Lally: Jackson.
[01:42:05] Speaker 3: Do you know that, sir?
[01:42:09] Mr. Lally: In that context, I don't.
[01:42:11] Speaker 1: Okay, next question. I mean, you're aware there's a TV show called First 48.
[01:42:16] Speaker 4: Jackson, Your Honor.
[01:42:18] Speaker 1: Assistant. Do you think the first 48 hours of a criminal investigation are critical?
[01:42:23] Speaker 4: Jackson.
[01:42:24] Speaker 1: You do know that the longer you wait to properly investigate anything, the better chance that evidence can be manipulated or destroyed, right? You would agree with that.
[01:42:38] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:42:39] Speaker 1: Did an investigator or any forensics team ever come into your house ever to photograph your entire home?
[01:42:44] Mr. Lally: No. I wish they had.
[01:42:46] Speaker 1: Did an investigator -- yeah, me too.
[01:42:50] Mr. Lally: Jackson, Your Honor.
[01:42:50] Speaker 1: Just kidding. Did an investigator or a forensics team ever come into your house to search for physical evidence?
[01:42:57] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:42:58] Speaker 1: Did an investigator or a forensics team ever come into your house to search for trace evidence? No. Did an investigator or forensics team ever come into your house to take carpet samples, flooring samples from the basement, for instance?
[01:43:12] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:43:14] Speaker 1: And to this day, you're aware that that's never happened?
[01:43:18] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:43:20] Speaker 1: Sir, you were in the Marines before you were a police officer, correct?
[01:43:24] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:43:24] Speaker 1: You're a combat veteran?
[01:43:26] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:43:27] Speaker 1: How long were you in the Marine Corps?
[01:43:29] Mr. Lally: Four years.
[01:43:31] Speaker 1: During the course of your Marine and military training, did you have any training in hand-to-hand combat?
[01:43:36] Speaker 4: Jackson.
[01:43:38] Speaker 3: I'll allow it.
[01:43:41] Speaker 4: Yes.
[01:43:43] Speaker 1: In addition to your Marine training on the subject, did you also receive additional training from the police department through the academy or otherwise on basic hand-to-hand combat?
[01:43:52] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:43:53] Speaker 1: So that's not part of the academy?
[01:43:56] Mr. Lally: Not hand-to-hand combat, no.
[01:43:57] Speaker 1: Fighting techniques, use of batons, things of that?
[01:44:00] Mr. Lally: Defensive tactics.
[01:44:01] Speaker 1: Defensive tactics. Okay. That's fighting, right?
[01:44:03] Mr. Lally: Well, it's not hand-to-hand combat, no.
[01:44:05] Speaker 1: Okay. Fair enough. I may be using the wrong word. It's physical. It's training on how to either defend yourself or control another person physically.
[01:44:14] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:44:15] Speaker 1: I mean, they're not going to send you out there on the streets completely ill-equipped. They need to know that you know how to defend yourself and how to put somebody in custody that doesn't want to be in custody, correct?
[01:44:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:44:24] Speaker 1: And that might include fighting.
[01:44:26] Mr. Lally: It could, yes.
[01:44:30] Speaker 1: And beyond your marine training and your police training, you're independently trained in techniques of fighting.
[01:44:42] Mr. Lally: Have I boxed before? Yes. Okay.
[01:44:45] Speaker 1: And you've trained in boxing. It's not like you just walk up and smack a heavy bag, right?
[01:44:50] Mr. Lally: You'd have to rephrase.
[01:44:52] Speaker 1: You've trained. You're a trained boxer. You're a trained fighter.
[01:44:57] Mr. Lally: I've boxed in the past and I've trained to box, yes. Yeah.
[01:45:01] Speaker 1: I mean, I've hit a heavy bag.
[01:45:03] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:45:04] Speaker 1: But I'm not a trained fighter. You're a trained fighter.
[01:45:06] Speaker 3: All right. So, I'm going. There's an objection you were standing, Mr. Lally. Yes, sir. Jurors, disregard that. Mr. Jackson, no comments, just questions, please.
[01:45:14] Speaker 1: Yes, your honor. In fact, your boxing skills were featured in a TV show that you were featured in as well, correct?
[01:45:22] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[01:45:23] Speaker 3: I'll allow that.
[01:45:26] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:45:27] Speaker 1: You were in fact, no?
[01:45:29] Mr. Lally: That they were featured in a show, no.
[01:45:31] Speaker 1: You've never shown on TV in a ring sparring with somebody?
[01:45:35] Mr. Lally: I may have been shown training, but I don't think I was having a boxing match, no. Okay.
[01:45:40] Speaker 1: That's, I wasn't suggesting that you were having like a paper. I was asking, is there a TV show that have showed you in a ring, boxing?
[01:45:48] Mr. Lally: Well, that's not what you asked me, but if you're asking me that now, yes.
[01:45:50] Speaker 1: I'm asking you that now. I apologize. My questions are somewhat, somewhat inarticle. Yes. You understand the question now? Yes. And you have been shown, I use the word featured, you've been shown on television in a boxing ring.
[01:46:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:46:03] Speaker 1: Sparring.
[01:46:05] Mr. Lally: I didn't, haven't seen the video in a while. I'm not, I'm not sure if I was sparring.
[01:46:09] Speaker 1: If we can, your honor, with the court's permission, can we take a look at exhibit 53?
[01:46:13] Speaker 3: Okay.
[01:46:15] Speaker 1: There's a clip starting at, it's time of day 11:47 and 15 seconds to 11:48 and 35 seconds, maybe a minute and a half. Can you enhance that? Pause. Do you see the two men in the foreground?
[01:46:52] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:46:53] Speaker 1: Who are those two men?
[01:46:54] Mr. Lally: Looks like myself and Brian Higgins.
[01:46:56] Speaker 1: Does it look like yourself and Brian Higgins, or is that yourself and Brian Higgins?
[01:47:00] Mr. Lally: Yes, it is.
[01:47:01] Speaker 1: Okay. Would you go ahead and play that?
[01:47:11] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you.
[01:48:11] Speaker 1: I've got one more clip to play, but I have a couple of questions, Your Honor.
[01:48:16] Speaker 3: Let's take it down and you can put the other one up after the questions.
[01:48:21] Speaker 1: Did you see what was displayed on that video? Yes. Had you seen that before?
[01:48:24] Mr. Lally: Part of it, yes.
[01:48:25] Speaker 1: Is that what you and Mr. Lally went over in your preparation for your testimony?
[01:48:29] Mr. Lally: I don't think that we went over it, but he showed me a quick clip of it.
[01:48:33] Speaker 1: When you say he showed you a quick look, did he ask you questions about it?
[01:48:37] Mr. Lally: I don't think so, no.
[01:48:38] Speaker 1: Did you give him any answers about it?
[01:48:40] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:48:40] Speaker 1: Any explanations?
[01:48:42] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:48:43] Speaker 1: Did he just show you the clip?
[01:48:44] Mr. Lally: Yeah, he just said, yeah, it looks like we were fooling around.
[01:48:47] Speaker 1: Okay, so you did make an explanation. You were giving him an explanation for it?
[01:48:51] Mr. Lally: Right, I said I think we were just fooling around.
[01:48:53] Speaker 1: Okay. It's the same thing you told us this morning, right?
[01:48:55] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:48:56] Speaker 1: Just fooling around.
[01:48:57] Mr. Lally: Yeah, just having fun with my friends and hanging out and fooling around.
[01:49:00] Speaker ?: Absolutely.
[01:49:00] Speaker 1: What were you doing? Describe what you were doing.
[01:49:04] Mr. Lally: Having fun with my friends, hanging out, just being silly.
[01:49:07] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:49:08] Speaker 1: Describe physically what you were doing in the video.
[01:49:14] Mr. Lally: I was playing around, sort of getting in a boxing stance.
[01:49:19] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:49:19] Speaker 1: Otherwise, when it was a fighting stance, correct?
[01:49:22] Mr. Lally: Yeah, for a second, yes.
[01:49:24] Speaker 1: Okay, and what did Brian Higgins do when you got into a fighting stance?
[01:49:28] Mr. Lally: It looked like he was kind of doing the same thing.
[01:49:31] Speaker 1: You got into a fighting stance as well, correct?
[01:49:32] Mr. Lally: Yeah.
[01:49:33] Speaker 1: What were you two talking about? Did you tell him you were talking?
[01:49:36] Mr. Lally: Yeah, I don't know what we were talking about. We were just being silly, fooling around, having fun.
[01:49:40] Speaker 1: Were you giving him advice on the proper way to get into a fighting stance or a boxing stance? No. Were you giving him some advice or some indicators about how to best position himself? If someone was taking an aggressive stance against him?
[01:49:55] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:49:56] Speaker ?: No.
[01:49:57] Speaker 1: Is he telling you what he thought was a good technique for fighting a boxing?
[01:50:01] Mr. Lally: I don't think it was that serious. We were just playing, fooling around.
[01:50:05] Speaker 1: But both of you were in fighting stances facing off against each other, correct?
[01:50:09] Mr. Lally: Yeah, for a second or two.
[01:50:10] Speaker 1: And Mr. Higgins, you saw him bob his head and then started walking up toward you like a boxer, correct?
[01:50:18] Mr. Lally: Yeah. Yes.
[01:50:20] Speaker 1: And then you got down, pulled your pant legs up, and you squatted down to indicate getting low, having low center of gravity, correct?
[01:50:28] Mr. Lally: That would never, that's indicating being silly. Okay. That's not.
[01:50:32] Speaker 1: And then at some point, while you're being silly, you then faked a right punch toward him, correct?
[01:50:37] Mr. Lally: I didn't notice that, but I'm not sure.
[01:50:42] Speaker 1: Can we take a look at the next part of this cliff, which is at time of day, 11.55 and 51 seconds. I'm sorry, 11.54 and 52 seconds. Highlight it. Okay, there's several individuals crowded around a table. Can you describe who, where you are and where Mr. Higgins is?
[01:51:09] Mr. Lally: Brian Higgins is the guy on the right with the hooded sweatshirt and the emblem on the back. I have a pointer. Do you want me to use it?
[01:51:17] Speaker 1: That'd be great. That'd be great.
[01:51:19] Mr. Lally: So that's Brian Higgins, and that's me.
[01:51:22] Speaker 5: Okay. Do you want to play this? Pause. Did you see what you just did?
[01:51:35] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:51:35] Speaker 5: What did you do when you slapped his right arm?
[01:51:38] Mr. Lally: What did I do?
[01:51:39] Speaker 5: What did you do? What are you doing?
[01:51:40] Mr. Lally: It looks like I'm just being silly, fooling around.
[01:51:42] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:51:44] Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you for a little bit more physical description. What are you doing? Why are you grabbing him from behind?
[01:51:49] Mr. Lally: I don't really know.
[01:51:50] Speaker 1: Is that a wrestling hold?
[01:51:52] Mr. Lally: No. Is that a control hold? No, I don't think so.
[01:51:55] Speaker 1: Is that some sort of a control hold that you've used in the past?
[01:51:59] Mr. Lally: Bear hugging somebody? No. That's just a silly fooling around with my buddy.
[01:52:03] Speaker 5: Let's go ahead and play this.
[01:52:09] Speaker 1: Do you see what Mr. Higgins just did?
[01:52:30] Mr. Lally: I did, yeah.
[01:52:31] Speaker 1: When you let him go, what did he do?
[01:52:34] Mr. Lally: I don't know. He did some kind of, I don't know, he pretended to knee me or something.
[01:52:38] Speaker 1: Knee to the abdomen?
[01:52:40] Mr. Lally: Yeah, I don't know if it made contact or not.
[01:52:43] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, I'm not suggested by my questions that you two are actually in fight.
[01:52:47] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:52:48] Speaker 1: I'm asking what he's doing, does it seem to view that he's playing like or practicing like techniques in fight?
[01:52:59] Mr. Lally: I don't know what his intent was. It looks like he's just fooling around just like I was.
[01:53:02] Speaker 1: But if a grown man walks up to you, grabs you from behind and puts a knee up to your solar plexus, that's probably not the same as a high five. Right?
[01:53:15] Mr. Lally: What is your question?
[01:53:17] Speaker 1: In other words, it looks like he's practicing some sort of fighting technique.
[01:53:20] Mr. Lally: Practicing? That's not how I see that.
[01:53:22] Speaker 1: How would you describe it?
[01:53:23] Mr. Lally: I would just describe it as him fooling around, we're in the bar together, we're good friends, and we're just being silly and fooling. That's all.
[01:53:30] Speaker 1: There's a number of people in that bar. You would agree with that?
[01:53:33] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:53:33] Speaker 1: You see anybody else in that video at any time getting physical with one another?
[01:53:38] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[01:53:40] Speaker 1: How much of this video have you actually watched?
[01:53:44] Mr. Lally: Not much.
[01:53:45] Speaker 1: Okay, then let me ask a different question. From your memory of that night, who are the only two people in the bar that seem to be getting physical with one another?
[01:53:52] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[01:53:53] Speaker 3: Can you answer that?
[01:53:54] Mr. Lally: Sure. The only person I remember being physical with was fooling around with Brian.
[01:54:00] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:54:01] Speaker 1: Just a little bit longer. Almost finished. Did you see the rest of that video?
[01:54:31] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:54:32] Speaker 1: No question that you two are being friendly with one another, correct? Yes. You would agree with that?
[01:54:38] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:54:39] Speaker 1: But there's also no question that of all the people in that bar, the only two people that appear to be imitating, fighting, are you and Mr. Higgins, correct?
[01:54:52] Mr. Lally: In that video, yes.
[01:54:54] Speaker 1: Is there another video?
[01:54:55] Mr. Lally: Well, no, I just don't know what everybody else was doing in the bar.
[01:54:58] Speaker 1: Do you remember anybody else? You know, Julie Albert or Nicole getting into a scrap with someone?
[01:55:06] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:55:06] Speaker ?: No.
[01:55:06] Speaker 1: Just you two, correct?
[01:55:08] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:55:10] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, this is minutes before everybody headed to your house at 34 Fairview, correct?
[01:55:18] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:55:18] Speaker 1: Including John O'Keefe?
[01:55:21] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:55:23] Speaker 1: Going back to the morning of January 29th, everyone had left your location. This is after you had already arrived, had a couple of beers, people started leaving. Everybody was gone from your location at about 1.45 a.m., maybe a little thereafter?
[01:55:43] Mr. Lally: That seems right.
[01:55:44] Speaker 1: Caitlin being the last person to leave?
[01:55:46] Mr. Lally: I believe so, yes.
[01:55:57] Speaker 1: What did you do to get ready for bed, to settle in?
[01:56:04] Mr. Lally: I went upstairs and just lied in bed. The TV was on. I was just kind of watching TV.
[01:56:11] Speaker 1: Do you have a nightstand?
[01:56:13] Mr. Lally: I do.
[01:56:14] Speaker 1: Is it on your side of the bed or Nicole's or do you have one on each?
[01:56:18] Mr. Lally: We may have had one on each in that house.
[01:56:21] Speaker 1: Put your phone on your nightstand?
[01:56:24] Mr. Lally: No.
[01:56:25] Speaker 1: Where did you put your phone?
[01:56:27] Mr. Lally: The phone was in bed with me.
[01:56:30] Speaker 1: So, your testimony is that you get in bed after being on a road trip all day long, then at restaurants, then at bars, then at a get-together at your house, and when you go to bed, you don't charge your phone?
[01:56:49] Mr. Lally: No. I had the phone in the bed with me.
[01:56:52] Speaker 1: Why would you have the phone in bed?
[01:56:54] Mr. Lally: We have five kids. You know, if somebody was trying to call or if I needed to reach them. It's just kind of a habit I do. I put my reading glasses and my phone in bed with me.
[01:57:08] Speaker 1: And you don't charge it?
[01:57:10] Mr. Lally: Sometimes I charge it, but not as a routine, no.
[01:57:13] Speaker 1: So, if you're worried about having your kids out, they might need to get a hold of dad, so you make sure that your phone is nice and close, but it can just run out of batteries?
[01:57:25] Mr. Lally: Well, if it's dying, then I'll put it in the charger, but if not, I just leave it on the bed.
[01:57:30] Speaker ?: Well, what about that night?
[01:57:32] Mr. Lally: That night, the phone was on the bed.
[01:57:34] Speaker ?: How do you know?
[01:57:36] Mr. Lally: Well, I remember the phone being on the bed.
[01:57:38] Speaker 1: You have a specific recollection from two and a half years ago about the state of the battery charge on your phone, such that you know it was in your bed that night.
[01:57:47] Mr. Lally: No, I just know as a routine, I keep my phone in the bed with me.
[01:57:51] Speaker 1: That's not what you just said. You just said, it depends on whether or not the battery needs to be charged, whether or not you charge it.
[01:57:56] Mr. Lally: My answer is that sometimes I, of course, charge my battery, but I sleep with the phone in my bed.
[01:58:04] Speaker 1: Every single night?
[01:58:06] Mr. Lally: Yes, mostly every night.
[01:58:07] Speaker 1: I thought you just said, four questions ago, it depends on whether or not the phone needs to be charged. Sometimes you keep it in the bed, sometimes you put it on the charger.
[01:58:17] Mr. Lally: If the phone needs to be charged, I charge it, but I sleep in bed with my phone.
[01:58:22] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, did your phone need to be charged that night?
[01:58:25] Mr. Lally: I don't remember if it did. But I slept in bed with the phone.
[01:58:28] Speaker 1: You've been on a road trip most of the day, correct?
[01:58:31] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:58:32] Speaker 1: You've been out at bars that night, correct?
[01:58:35] Mr. Lally: Mm-hmm.
[01:58:35] Speaker 1: Is that yes?
[01:58:36] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:58:36] Speaker 1: You weren't charging your phone. We just saw the video. You weren't charging your phone at the bar.
[01:58:40] Mr. Lally: Right.
[01:58:42] Speaker 1: So when you got home, you clearly put your phone on a charger, didn't you?
[01:58:46] Mr. Lally: I did not.
[01:58:48] Speaker 1: So if your kids needed to get a hold of you, why would the phone being in your bed be an assistance to you instead of just on the charger with the nightstand?
[01:58:56] Mr. Lally: That's just what I've always done. I just keep it in my bed. My wife does the same thing.
[01:59:02] Speaker 1: So now you've got two phones in the bed.
[01:59:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:59:04] Speaker 1: Okay. And your glasses.
[01:59:05] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:59:06] Speaker 1: Right between the two of you.
[01:59:07] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:59:07] Speaker 1: Got it. Does your phone have a ringer on it?
[01:59:12] Mr. Lally: It does.
[01:59:13] Speaker 1: Ever thought about maybe turning the ringer on just in case the kids need to get a hold of you?
[01:59:17] Mr. Lally: Sometimes it's on vibrate. Sometimes it's on ring. It depends.
[01:59:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. It depends on you. Just put it on ringer. Wouldn't that make more sense to go to bed and put it on ringer?
[01:59:28] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[01:59:29] Speaker 3: Can you answer that?
[01:59:32] Mr. Lally: All I can answer is that I sleep with my phone in my bed. That's just what I do.
[01:59:39] Speaker 1: And you know what I'm about to ask you, which is why you're saying you sleep with the phone in the bed, correct? Yeah. All right. So that's sustained. That's stricken for Mr. Jackson. All right. What else is in the bed with you? Your keys, your wallet, any other pocket items? No. Just the phone and your glasses?
[01:59:58] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[01:59:59] Speaker 1: And Nicole's phone?
[02:00:01] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:00:01] Speaker 1: Right between the two of you?
[02:00:03] Mr. Lally: Usually, yes.
[02:00:04] Speaker 1: What about that night?
[02:00:06] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:00:08] Speaker 1: Sir, did you make any phone calls after you went to bed between the hours of 1.45 a.m. and 6.30 a.m.?
[02:00:15] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:00:18] Speaker 1: Who did you call?
[02:00:20] Mr. Lally: I inadvertently called Brian Higgins.
[02:00:24] Speaker 1: What time?
[02:00:26] Mr. Lally: I don't recall the exact time. After 2.
[02:00:32] Speaker 1: 2.22 and 35 seconds. Does that sound familiar?
[02:00:37] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:00:37] Speaker 1: Did you speak to Brian Higgins at any point between 1.45 a.m. and 6.30 a.m. that night?
[02:00:49] Mr. Lally: No.
[02:00:51] Speaker 1: You say you inadvertently called him at 2.22 in the morning?
[02:00:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:00:57] Speaker 1: How did you inadvertently call him?
[02:01:00] Mr. Lally: Well, I don't know because it was inadvertently called him at 2.45 a.m. that night? Well, I don't know because it was inadvertently called him at 2.45 a.m. that night? Well, I don't know because it was inadvertently called him at 2.45 a.m. that night?
[02:01:03] Speaker 1: Well, it's kind of like a butt dial.
[02:01:04] Mr. Lally: Well, it's kind of like a butt dial.
[02:01:06] Speaker 1: Kind of like a butt dial. All right. How long have you used an iPhone?
[02:01:12] Mr. Lally: For a long time.
[02:01:13] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you've been asked this question before, haven't you?
[02:01:23] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:01:24] Speaker 1: Hence my question. You knew what I was going to ask you. I'll withdraw. You indicated previously at a different hearing in June of 2023 that you were, quote, hanging out with your wife and you must have butt dialed Mr. Higgins, correct? Yes. At 2.22 and 35 seconds on January 29, 2022, correct?
[02:01:50] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:01:52] Speaker 1: You were asked how that could have happened, much like I just asked how that could have happened, right?
[02:01:56] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:01:57] Speaker 1: And in that hearing, you said, quote, I'm not totally sure. Similar to what you just said here.
[02:02:03] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:02:04] Speaker 1: And here you added that it could have been a butt dial.
[02:02:08] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:02:12] Speaker 1: You were then called back to that same hearing, but at a different date, an ongoing hearing, right?
[02:02:18] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:02:18] Speaker 1: That was in July of 2023, correct?
[02:02:21] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:02:22] Speaker 1: You then changed your testimony and said, and I don't mean to be indelicate, but your testimony was then that you were in an intimate situation, I'll put it that way, with Nicole at the time. And that's how you butt dialed Brian Higgins, correct?
[02:02:37] Mr. Lally: I don't believe I said that's how I butt dialed Brian Higgins.
[02:02:40] Speaker 1: That's the time.
[02:02:41] Mr. Lally: I think I said there was a time frame that that was close. Okay. So I didn't say that, no. All right.
[02:02:48] Speaker 1: What you said was you were in an intimate situation with Nicole at the time that the butt dial occurred,
[02:02:56] Speaker ?: correct?
[02:02:56] Mr. Lally: I'm not sure if you, if you have something you can read me or show me.
[02:03:04] Speaker 1: Is it your testimony? Let me just ask. Sure. Is it your testimony that you and your wife were in the middle of some sort of sexual or intimate situation, and that's what caused you to butt dial the phone at that time at 2.22 a.m.?
[02:03:17] Speaker 4: Objection.
[02:03:17] Speaker 1: Sistine. I'd like to show you an exhibit briefly. Oh, sorry. Sir, I just want to find out if this refreshes your recollection. Look at lines 11 through 13, and then let me know when you're prepared.
[02:03:39] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:03:40] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[02:03:40] Speaker 1: May I approach? Yes. Does that refresh your recollection that you indicated at the other hearing?
[02:03:50] Speaker 3: Just the first part of that first.
[02:03:52] Speaker 1: Does that refresh your recollection?
[02:03:54] Mr. Lally: It does.
[02:03:55] Speaker 1: Okay, now you can. Thank you, Your Honor. Isn't it true that at the other hearing, you indicated that at or around the 2.22 time frame, you and your wife were in bed together in an intimate situation?
[02:04:08] Mr. Lally: Yes, around that time, I think it reads.
[02:04:10] Speaker 1: Do you recall every call that you made between, say, 1.45 a.m. and the next couple of days? Do you remember every single one of those calls?
[02:04:22] Mr. Lally: No.
[02:04:23] Speaker 1: Do you think it would refresh your recollection to look at a log of those calls during that timeframe if we're going to discuss those? Yes.
[02:04:31] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:04:31] Speaker 1: May I approach your honor? Yes. That's two pages worth of documents. If it refreshes your recollection as we walk through this with the court's permission, let me know if you need to refer to that.
[02:04:47] Speaker ?: Right.
[02:04:48] Mr. Lally: Right. I'm not going to be able to read it right now. I'll do it as you ask.
[02:04:51] Speaker 1: Correct. Correct. Yeah. No, you don't need to read it right now. I just wanted to have it in front of you. By the way, you've seen these records before, correct, at the other hearing proceeding?
[02:05:06] Mr. Lally: I've seen some records before, yes. I don't know if these exact records are not. All right.
[02:05:11] Speaker 1: And you've acknowledged that at least the first page, these are your phone records for the number ending 0888, correct? Yes. Okay. And these are call records from January 29th? Yes. At 2:22 and 35 seconds in the morning, correct? Yes. Whose number ends in 5421? According to this, it's Brian Higgins. The call at 2:22 and 35 seconds appears to be one second in length. And that's from you to him, correct?
[02:05:49] Mr. Lally: It says one second. I don't...
[02:05:52] Speaker 1: That would be the call, the initial call from you to him, the one that you claim is a butt dial. Is that right? Yes. Did that call roll to voicemail? And then you immediately hung up?
[02:06:02] Mr. Lally: No, I don't, I don't, I don't recall if it, I don't, I don't know.
[02:06:05] Speaker 1: So according to you, it was a butt dial. That went to his phone, it somehow lasted one second.
[02:06:13] Mr. Lally: Right.
[02:06:14] Speaker 1: Okay. Then there's a second call. If you look at the second line down, there's a second call at 2:22 and 52 seconds, 17 seconds later, correct?
[02:06:24] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:06:25] Speaker 1: That call is actually from Brian Higgins to you, isn't it? Yes. And that call doesn't last one second. That call lasts 22 seconds, correct?
[02:06:35] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:06:36] Speaker 1: And obviously you know how long 22 seconds is. What's that? You know how long 22 seconds lasts? Yes.
[02:06:43] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:06:44] Speaker 1: So according to your phone records, you placed a call to him and then 17 seconds later, he returned a call to you that lasted 22 seconds, correct?
[02:06:55] Mr. Lally: That's what the records reflect, yes.
[02:06:57] Speaker 1: When you woke up in the morning, you obviously checked your phone. Did you not?
[02:07:01] Mr. Lally: I don't know if I did.
[02:07:04] Speaker 1: Are you telling this jury that the call that came into your phone was a missed call or did you answer it?
[02:07:10] Mr. Lally: I did not answer it.
[02:07:12] Speaker 1: So it would have been a missed call?
[02:07:14] Mr. Lally: I just know I didn't answer the call.
[02:07:16] Speaker 1: So it would have been a missed call?
[02:07:18] Mr. Lally: I don't know. I don't know that to be a fact. I just know I didn't answer the phone call. I missed the call, yes.
[02:07:24] Speaker 1: That's what I mean. Right. You missed the call. Right. It did something on your phone and you just didn't answer according to you. Right.
[02:07:31] Speaker ?: Okay.
[02:07:32] Speaker 1: And again, you're using an iPhone.
[02:07:34] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:07:35] Speaker 1: If you butt-dialed Brian Higgins and he called you back and you didn't answer, you would have a very bright red missed call in your call log, correct?
[02:07:45] Mr. Lally: Josh.
[02:07:46] Speaker 1: Do you know that?
[02:07:47] Mr. Lally: I don't know that.
[02:07:48] Speaker 1: Have you ever missed a call on your iPhone before?
[02:07:50] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:07:51] Speaker 1: And when you go to your call logs, it says missed call in red, correct? I think your wife calls you and your kids call you.
[02:07:58] Mr. Lally: I don't think I've ever noticed that it's in red. And so, no, I don't know that to be true.
[02:08:03] Speaker 1: You're certainly alerted to the fact that it's a missed call. That you missed the call, correct?
[02:08:07] Mr. Lally: If I were to go back and look at my incoming calls, it would probably say missed the call, yes.
[02:08:13] Speaker 1: And, of course, if we asked you to show us your phone and show that that was a missed call, you couldn't do that because you've gotten rid of that phone, correct?
[02:08:25] Speaker 4: Objection.
[02:08:26] Speaker 1: Distinct. Did you tell anyone in law enforcement that next day that, oddly, Brian Higgins was calling you at 2:22 a.m. and you missed a call?
[02:08:35] Mr. Lally: No, I wasn't aware of that call.
[02:08:37] Speaker 1: If a call went to voicemail on your phone, you would get that voicemail, correct? You would get that voicemail, correct? You'd get notice of it.
[02:08:44] Mr. Lally: If I checked my voicemails and there was a voicemail, I would get it, yes. That's my question.
[02:08:49] Speaker 1: Did you get a voicemail from Brian Higgins? No. Which means you didn't leave a voicemail. Right. We suggest that you answered the call, correct? Objection. Distinct. Let's talk for a second about this butt dial. You went to bed and you closed and your phone was -- you closed and locked your phone, correct? Yes. I don't want you to tell me what the passcode is, Mr. Albert. That's important. I want to make sure you understand. I'm not asking you to tell me what the passcode is, but at the time was your passcode a four-digit or six-digit passcode?
[02:09:26] Mr. Lally: Four, I believe.
[02:09:28] Speaker 1: And that locks the phone when it's not in use, correct?
[02:09:31] Mr. Lally: The phone will lock after it's not used for a while. I don't know the exact timing of it.
[02:09:37] Speaker 1: You're exactly right, Mr. Albert. I said it that way. The phone automatically locks, you have to use the four-digit passcode to unlock it, correct?
[02:09:43] Mr. Lally: Well, no. I also have voice -- I mean face recognition, too, so it can open that way without any passcode.
[02:09:49] Speaker 1: We'll get to that in a second. The phone locks when it's not in use, correct?
[02:09:54] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:09:55] Speaker 1: And then to make a call once you open the phone, either through facial recognition or through the passcode, then you have to tap on the phone app in order to open up the phone app, correct?
[02:10:10] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:10:11] Mr. Lally: I believe so. Once you open up that phone app, there are only three ways that you can initiate a phone call.
[02:10:21] Speaker 1: Favorites, recents, and contacts, correct?
[02:10:24] Mr. Lally: I don't know that.
[02:10:26] Speaker 1: If you tap on a contact, that opens up the contact page or the contact app, right? You know that. Yes. That's where all your contacts are. Yes.
[02:10:37] Mr. Lally: They're alphabetized.
[02:10:38] Speaker 1: Yes. You have to either scroll through or do a search and type in the name of the person you're looking for. Right.
[02:10:44] Speaker ?: You didn't do that, did you?
[02:10:45] Speaker 1: No. You tap favorites. If you have favorites listed, there's a list of favorites. You have to scroll through and tap the one that you want to call, correct?
[02:10:54] Mr. Lally: I think so. Yes. I'm not totally aware of that, but.
[02:10:57] Speaker 1: And if you tap on recents, those are the recent calls that you've had. You've either received or made. And of course, you have to tap on the contacts in the recents list that you want to call, right? Yes. And then, of course, you would have to tap again to end whatever call you initiated, right? Yes. I mean, don't just say goodbye. You've got to say goodbye and hang up. You've got to tap it to hang it up.
[02:11:22] Mr. Lally: Right.
[02:11:23] Speaker 1: So would you agree from a closed and locked phone, there is no physical mechanism by which a person can hit one button and make a phone call?
[02:11:37] Speaker 4: Objection.
[02:11:38] Speaker 1: Are you saying that from your closed and locked phone, you inadvertently tapped your phone one time and that initiated a butt dial to Brian Higgins?
[02:11:54] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[02:11:55] Speaker 1: Objection. Is that what you're saying?
[02:11:57] Mr. Lally: No, that's not what I'm saying. Tell me what you're saying.
[02:11:59] Speaker 1: How did you butt dial Brian Higgins? I don't know.
[02:12:02] Mr. Lally: What are you doing in the morning? I don't know that the phone was locked. I could have been looking through my phone. I butt dial people often and make inadvertent calls. I could have hit a last call from him by accident, thus calling his phone.
[02:12:18] Speaker 1: So you were actually awake and on your phone at the time?
[02:12:22] Mr. Lally: I was awake and I could have been looking at my phone.
[02:12:25] Speaker 1: So, Mr. Albert, how did you miss the call 17 seconds later?
[02:12:31] Mr. Lally: Well, my wife was in the room with me and we were hanging out and I never got the second call from him, so I'm not sure what time he called. I'm not sure what I was doing at that second, but I don't know.
[02:12:45] Speaker 1: But it didn't go to voicemail.
[02:12:48] Mr. Lally: Well, I didn't get a voicemail from him, no.
[02:12:50] Speaker 1: So it didn't go to voicemail.
[02:12:51] Mr. Lally: Well, I don't know that it didn't go to voicemail. I just know that I didn't receive a voicemail from him. I mean, we're all guessing here, but I mean, he could have called voicemail. We're not all guessing here. Well, you are because you don't know if he left a voicemail or didn't or at least got voicemail and then hung up the phone.
[02:13:10] Speaker 1: I think one of us is trying to guess.
[02:13:12] Mr. Lally: Jackson, you're on. I'm saying it could have been.
[02:13:14] Speaker 3: Are you saying that it was? I don't know. Mr. Albert, you were the only person that was there with your phone.
[02:13:20] Speaker 1: Was the phone unlocked and did you make a call? Objection. Can you answer that? Sure.
[02:13:25] Mr. Lally: I don't know.
[02:13:26] Speaker 1: And 17 seconds later, again, presuming you're the only person there with the phone, did you answer that call? Objection.
[02:13:34] Speaker ?: I did not.
[02:13:34] Mr. Lally: You would agree that in order to answer a call, you can't just look at your phone to answer it.
[02:13:39] Speaker ?: It has to be swiped physically, correct?
[02:13:40] Speaker 1: I think you can hit, I think it comes up green or red for the phone call whether it's locked or not and you can hit green.
[02:13:49] Speaker ?: Right. But you have to hit a button.
[02:13:51] Speaker 1: Yes.
[02:13:52] Speaker ?: You hit a button to answer a call from Brian Higgins at 2:22 and 2:22 and 2:22 and 2:22.
[02:13:52] Speaker 1: You would agree that in order to answer a call, you would agree that in order to answer a call, you can't just look at your phone to answer it. It has to be swiped physically, correct?
[02:13:57] Mr. Lally: I think you can hit, I think it comes up green or red for the phone call whether it's locked or not and you can hit green.
[02:14:06] Speaker 1: Right. But you have to hit a button.
[02:14:08] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:14:09] Speaker 1: Did you hit a button to answer a call from Brian Higgins?
[02:14:12] Mr. Lally: I don't.
[02:14:13] Speaker 1: I don't need to talk over you. Please let me finish my question. Did you hit a button to answer a phone call from Brian Higgins at 2:22 and 52 seconds in the morning?
[02:14:22] Mr. Lally: Not that I know of.
[02:14:23] Speaker 1: You do know that that phone will not answer on its own, correct? Yes. And simply touching your butt will not answer that phone. It has to be swiped.
[02:14:32] Mr. Lally: No, I don't think it has to be swiped.
[02:14:34] Speaker 1: You'd agree that a 22 second call from Brian Higgins had to have been answered by you, isn't that right? Jackson. Do you agree with that?
[02:14:42] Mr. Lally: No.
[02:14:43] Speaker 1: Who else was in the room?
[02:14:45] Mr. Lally: Just myself and my wife.
[02:14:47] Speaker 1: And Chloe? Yes.
[02:14:49] Mr. Lally: But Chloe's not a human, so it was myself and my wife.
[02:14:52] Speaker 1: By process of elimination, Nicole didn't answer that call, did she? No. Chloe, the non-human, didn't answer that call, did she? No. So who had to have answered the call, sir?
[02:15:06] Mr. Lally: Objection. Can you answer that? I don't remember answering that call. Could have hit the phone by accident causing it to answer.
[02:15:15] Speaker 1: Okay.
[02:15:16] Speaker 3: Let's move on from this, Mr. Jackson.
[02:15:18] Speaker 1: Your Honor, if I could have one or two more questions. One more question. Now your testimony is you could have answered the call, correct? No.
[02:15:26] Mr. Lally: My testimony is that I don't know. You're asking me how it could have answered, and I'm trying to answer your question.
[02:15:32] Speaker 1: At a prior hearing in June of 2022, you were asked this exact question, and you answered, quote, yeah, it's only possible that it's me, end quote, correct?
[02:15:44] Mr. Lally: I don't recall answering that way, but I'm not sure.
[02:15:51] Speaker 1: And you were also asked, after being confronted with these records, I guess I could have talked to him, meaning Mr. Higgins, correct? I don't recall saying that, no. Let's move on. Did you have any conversation that Brian Higgins about a 2:22 a.m. phone call?
[02:16:18] Mr. Lally: That next morning, while everything was going on, I mentioned to Brian that I may have butt dialed you last night. Sorry about that.
[02:16:28] Speaker 1: Did the two of you agree that you were going to both say those calls were butt dials in order to cover up those calls?
[02:16:36] Mr. Lally: Objection.
[02:16:37] Speaker 3: You can answer that.
[02:16:38] Mr. Lally: We did not say that.
[02:16:40] Speaker 1: But let's be clear, since then and now, you've gotten rid of your phone, correct? I upgraded my phone, yes. And since then and now, Brian Higgins has gotten rid of his phone, and you're aware of that as well?
[02:16:52] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:16:53] Speaker 1: By the way, you indicated that you were awakened in the morning by Jim McCabe about 6:30, correct?
[02:17:01] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:17:02] Speaker 1: And when you woke up, you said you grabbed your phone to make a call. Is that right?
[02:17:07] Mr. Lally: No.
[02:17:08] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that you grabbed your phone and made a call at 7:20 in the morning?
[02:17:17] Mr. Lally: Yes. Yes. But that's not when I was awoken by my sister-in-law.
[02:17:23] Speaker 1: Sorry, that wasn't my question. After you're awake and you're up. Right. You started making calls. Right. My question is, what was the first call you made at 7:20? Can I look at this? If that refreshes your recollection with the court's permission? Yes.
[02:17:40] Mr. Lally: At 7:20, I called Brian Higgins.
[02:17:44] Speaker 1: Mr. Alvin, you have six siblings and five kids, right? Yes. You have in-laws, cousins, huge family, correct? Yes. But on the morning you find out that John O'Keefe is laying dead or dying on your lawn, the first call you made at 7:20 was to Brian Higgins. Is that right? Yes. The same person you had a call with, or at least the logs indicate you had a call with at 2:22 in the morning, correct? Yes. During that 7:20 a.m. call, did you two discuss the 2:22 a.m. calls? No. I thought you just said that you told him, "Oh, I think I may have butt dialed."
[02:18:25] Mr. Lally: Yeah, that was later in the morning when he came to the house.
[02:18:28] Speaker 1: Not on that 7:20 a.m. call?
[02:18:30] Mr. Lally: No.
[02:18:31] Speaker 1: What did you talk about on that 7:20 a.m. call?
[02:18:34] Mr. Lally: I informed him of what was going on at my house. We were out the night before and I thought it was important for him to know what had happened.
[02:18:41] Speaker 1: Mr. Albert, I have a couple more questions about the phone usage that morning and throughout the day. You called Brian Higgins at 7:20 a.m. for 1 minute and 56 seconds, correct? Yes. You called Brian Higgins at 7:57 a.m. and spoke for 12 minutes and 33 seconds.
[02:19:16] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:19:17] Speaker 1: You then called your brother, Kevin Albert, at 9:40 a.m. and spoke for 1 minute and 5 seconds.
[02:19:22] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:19:23] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz called you at 9:50 a.m. and left a voicemail, is that right?
[02:19:29] Mr. Lally: He didn't leave me a voicemail, but I think he called me.
[02:19:33] Speaker 1: You called Chief Berkowitz back at 9:54, 4 minutes later, and spoke for 4 minutes and 40 seconds, right? Yes. You called Jim McCabe at 11:30 a.m., is that right? Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Jim McCabe called you back at 12:20 p.m. and spoke for 7 minutes and 52 seconds. Yes. Chief Berkowitz: You called Kevin Albert again at 2:01 in the afternoon and spoke for 8 minutes.
[02:19:57] Mr. Lally: Yes.
[02:19:58] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: You called Kevin Albert at 6:45, I'm sorry, you called Brian Higgins at 3:24 p.m. and spoke for 6 minutes and 5 seconds, is that right? Chief Berkowitz: And if it refreshes your recollection, there's a second page, second log, you'll turn your attention to the 3:24 p.m. timeframe.
[02:20:22] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Trying to find it.
[02:20:24] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Take your time.
[02:20:27] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I see it, yes.
[02:20:32] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: And there's a second call, you call Brian Higgins at 6:12 p.m. and speak for a minute and 7 seconds. Chief Berkowitz: Right? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And then the third one on that page, you called Brian Higgins at 6:35 p.m. and spoke for 10 minutes and 12 seconds, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Turning back to your call logs, you called Kevin Albert at 6:45 on that same day, spoke for about 16 minutes. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Then on the next day, January 30th, you called Chief Berkowitz and spoke for a minute and 6 seconds. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And the following day, you spoke with Jen McCabe who called you at 8:04 p.m., correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And finally, Chief Berkowitz called you at 1:48 p.m. on February 1st, right? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Three days later, you spoke again to Brian Higgins at 8:48 a.m., is that right? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: The subject of these calls, Mr. Albert, were all about the fact that John O'Keefe was found dying on your yard, on your lawn, on January 29th, 2022, isn't that right?
[02:21:37] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I don't know the subject of all these calls, no. Chief Berkowitz: You had to have been talking about that event.
[02:21:41] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Of course.
[02:21:42] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: It was a horrible situation that was going on. Chief Berkowitz: Everybody was distraught and there were a lot of phone calls. Chief Berkowitz: This call log doesn't encompass all the phone calls. Chief Berkowitz: No, it doesn't. Chief Berkowitz: There were a lot of phone calls being made to a lot of people because of this horrible situation.
[02:21:58] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: And the point is, Mr. Albert, those many calls that you've just described, Chief Berkowitz: especially as they pertain to Brian Higgins, Jen McCabe, Kenny Berkowitz, your brother Kevin Albert. Chief Berkowitz: Were those many calls and efforts to get stories straight at the time?
[02:22:18] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, absolutely not.
[02:22:19] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Were those many calls and efforts? Chief Berkowitz: We're going to send the jury out. Chief Berkowitz: Thank you. Chief Berkowitz: Mr. Albert, I want to address a couple of quick things that we talked about a little bit earlier. Chief Berkowitz: The September 22nd, 2022 date, recall that date? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: That's the date that you indicate that you believe you got rid of your phone or turned your phone in for an upgrade? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Did you watch the proceedings on this case, the Commonwealth versus Karen Reed, on September 22nd, 2022? Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: You were not aware that that was the first date that I appeared on this case, and it was nationally televised? Chief Berkowitz: Objection.
[02:22:55] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Sustained.
[02:22:56] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Were you aware that that hearing date of September 22nd, 2022 was a televised hearing?
[02:23:03] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Objection. Chief Berkowitz: Sustained.
[02:23:05] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: What did you know about the hearing date of September 22nd, 2022? Chief Berkowitz: I didn't know anything about it.
[02:23:10] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: You knew nothing about it?
[02:23:11] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:23:12] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Okay.
[02:23:13] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Let me ask you a different question. Chief Berkowitz: This is going to dovetail into an earlier conversation that you and I had concerning a statement that you gave in June of 2023 in the other hearing. Chief Berkowitz: You understand what I'm saying? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: I'm fumbling the language a little bit, but you understand the hearing that I'm talking about?
[02:23:38] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:23:39] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: You had indicated a little bit earlier in my questioning that you did not recall saying something to the effect of, yeah, it's only possible that it was me who answered the phone. Chief Berkowitz: Do you remember saying that? Chief Berkowitz: That you didn't recall that? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Okay.
[02:23:55] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: May I approach your honor?
[02:23:56] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:23:57] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Thank you. Chief Berkowitz: Mr. Albert, there's a highlighted portion of that transcript. If you would just take a look at that and when you're finished reviewing it, just look up at me and let me know.
[02:24:08] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes, I got it.
[02:24:09] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: May I approach your honor? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:24:11] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Thank you.
[02:24:12] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Mr. Albert, did that refresh your recollection as to the colloquy that you had with someone questioning you about this issue in June of 2023? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And in fact, you testified as follows, question, is there, can you just but then you?
[02:24:30] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Objection, Your Honor, as far as the reading. Chief Berkowitz: As far as what? Chief Berkowitz: Reading from the transcript. Chief Berkowitz: He's asked him if his memories are fresh. Chief Berkowitz: All right.
[02:24:38] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: So go ahead and ask him a question. Chief Berkowitz: Don't read from the transcript.
[02:24:40] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Did you in fact say in answer to the question, if it's not your wife and it's not your dog, who else is it possible on earth to answer this phone? Chief Berkowitz: Answer. Chief Berkowitz: Yeah. Chief Berkowitz: It's only possible that it's me. Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:24:55] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Did you say that?
[02:24:56] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:24:57] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Just before the break, I was asking you about those, as you indicated, many phone calls that you traded between and among your family members and friends, including Brian Higgins. Chief Berkowitz: Do you recall that? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Were those many calls and effort to get your stories straight about how you were going to, what statements you were going to give to law enforcement and how are you going to testify if this case ever went to trial?
[02:25:28] Mr. Lally: Brian Higgins: No, absolutely not.
[02:25:29] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Were those calls, those many calls and effort to coordinate narratives between you and your friends and your family?
[02:25:36] Mr. Lally: Brian Higgins: No.
[02:25:37] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Were those many calls in any way discussing the fact of creating a story of mysterious butt dials? Chief Berkowitz: Objection. Chief Berkowitz: Distained.
[02:25:47] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Thank you, Your Honor. Chief Berkowitz: I have nothing further. Chief Berkowitz: Okay.
[02:25:50] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Thank you, Your Honor. Chief Berkowitz: Good afternoon, sir.
[02:25:52] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Good afternoon.
[02:25:53] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: You were asked some questions about the week prior to being at the waterfall. At some point, you were at the hillside, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And you were there with friends and family, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And you weren't specifically there with either Mr. O'Keefe or the defendant, correct?
[02:26:17] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, I was not.
[02:26:18] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And same with respect to the waterfall on January 28th, you were there with friends and family, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And you weren't specifically there with Mr. O'Keefe or the defendant, correct?
[02:26:28] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, they came unrelated to anything I was doing.
[02:26:30] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And you were shown some video from the waterfall from January 28th in which Chief Berkowitz: you were speaking at a sort of section of the table, correct?
[02:26:41] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:26:42] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And was the defendant the only person in that section of the table? Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: There were other people around her, behind her, is that correct?
[02:26:48] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes, it looked like there were other people at the table as well as situated right behind where she was sitting.
[02:26:54] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And those other people around her, behind her, those are people that you knew Chief Berkowitz: far better on January 28th than the defendant? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:27:01] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Those are my relatives and friends and that's why I was at that location.
[02:27:05] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: You were asked some questions about going over to Ms. McCabe's house later on the afternoon of the 29th, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And why did you go over there?
[02:27:18] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I went to Jen's house because she's my sister-in-law. Chief Berkowitz: She was going through an awful time that morning, as we all were. Chief Berkowitz: And I wanted to be there to comfort her if she needed anything. Chief Berkowitz: Because we're so close, I didn't want her to feel like this was too much for her to handle.
[02:27:38] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And again, how long have you known Ms. McCabe?
[02:27:40] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I've known Jen since she was probably six or seven years old. Chief Berkowitz: She's like a sister to me.
[02:27:46] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, at your home on the January 28th and the January 29th, when people came back after the waterfall, did you at any point in time go into the basement area of your home?
[02:28:00] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:28:01] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Did Brian Higgins at any time go into the basement area of your home?
[02:28:03] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Not that I know of.
[02:28:04] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Did you see anyone go into the basement area of your home during the time that you were there after coming home from the waterfall? Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: Now, you were asked some questions about your dog, Chloe, and that she wasn't great with strangers. Chief Berkowitz: What exactly did you mean by that?
[02:28:18] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: All I meant was that she wasn't overly affectionate with strangers. Chief Berkowitz: She's a heavy dog. Chief Berkowitz: Not everybody likes dogs. Chief Berkowitz: So, if there's going to be people at the house that don't know the dog, they might not particularly want her around them.
[02:28:35] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And were you more concerned about the people in the house that didn't know Chloe, or were you more concerned about Chloe yourself? Chief Berkowitz: The people in the house.
[02:28:43] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Never has the dog, to my knowledge, been aggressive to anybody except for the time that there was a fight between two dogs.
[02:28:52] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, you were shown in Exhibit 66 that was sort of a drawing of your house, do you recall that? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And had you ever seen that prior to today? Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: And do you recall specifically within the drawing or the artist's rendering of your house? Chief Berkowitz: There were certain lights on around the garage and the front door?
[02:29:12] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I did notice that, yes.
[02:29:13] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And do you recall whether or not those lights were on when you came home from the waterfall on January 29th?
[02:29:19] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I don't recall, but oftentimes those lights are off and sometimes the bulbs don't even work in them.
[02:29:26] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And when Ms. McCabe comes into your bedroom sometime after 6:00 a.m. on the 29th? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: That was following a day in which you woke up in New York City and went to a funeral, is that correct?
[02:29:41] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes, I went to a funeral that morning in New York.
[02:29:43] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And that was for a former police officer from New York City?
[02:29:47] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes, a police officer in New York that had been murdered while on duty. Chief Berkowitz: And that was his funeral.
[02:29:52] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And did you know that police officer whose funeral you attended? Chief Berkowitz: Objection. Chief Berkowitz: The objection sustained.
[02:29:57] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Next question.
[02:29:58] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, with reference to, you then drive all the way home from New York to Massachusetts, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And you went out to a couple of different places, had a couple of drinks,
[02:30:12] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:30:13] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And then went back to your home and went to bed sometime around 2 a.m. Chief Berkowitz: Yes, after 2. Chief Berkowitz: And so, about how long had you been asleep from the time that you dozed off to the time that Ms. McCabe comes into your bedroom that morning?
[02:30:27] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Only a few hours, probably three, four hours, three and a half, four hours.
[02:30:33] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, in relation to waking up that morning, you testified that you did not go outside, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:30:41] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: And why not? Chief Berkowitz: Initially, when I woke up and I was told what was going on out front, I looked out my window and I saw some emergency vehicles. Chief Berkowitz: I did not see John at that time. Chief Berkowitz: I came downstairs with my wife and she asked, where was John?
[02:31:04] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: What was your understanding of where Mr. O'Keefe was when he came downstairs? Chief Berkowitz: Objection.
[02:31:17] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Ask it differently, Mr. Lally.
[02:31:19] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: In reference to when you came downstairs, what was your understanding of, medically, what was going on outside? Chief Berkowitz: Objection. Chief Berkowitz: The objection system.
[02:31:31] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Was there any reason for you to go outside of your house?
[02:31:32] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:31:33] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: There was not. Chief Berkowitz: At that time, there was no victim out in front of my house.
[02:31:35] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So there was no first aid for me to give. Chief Berkowitz: There was nothing I could do.
[02:31:50] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: You were asking questions about the bulkheads in the back of your house, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Where is that bulkhead in relation to the bay windows of the kitchen that you were testifying about?
[02:32:01] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So the bulkhead door is directly under the bay windows in the kitchen. Chief Berkowitz: The bulkhead door opens up almost directly into the windows, obviously without hitting them, but it opens up into the front of the bay windows.
[02:32:16] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: What you saw as far as that video that was shown to you, that's not what the bulkhead looked like? Chief Berkowitz: That's not what the door looked like at that time on January 28th or 29th of 2022?
[02:32:25] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, those are not the doors we had.
[02:32:27] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And as far as the bulkhead was concerned, when that bulkhead was opened around that time, what, if any, kind of noise would that bulkhead make?
[02:32:35] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: A loud, creaking, old, rusty metal sound when you opened it.
[02:32:41] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Is that something that if it was open and you were in the kitchen area, you could hear? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:32:46] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:32:47] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, in reference to that bulkhead, what, if any, security or what, was it open, was it locked, how was that left?
[02:32:54] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So the bulkhead door was shut and it was broken, so sometimes you could turn the middle thing to lock it and sometimes it would be hard to do. Chief Berkowitz: But the wooden door that goes into the basement has a lock on the doorknob. Chief Berkowitz: That is a door that we keep locked because we don't use it.
[02:33:13] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, as far as from the bulkhead, you were shown in that video a gate that opens up to the front yard area of the house, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And what if any other gates are located on the fence in your backyard?
[02:33:28] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So we also have a gate on the rear part of the fence and there's also a gate on the opposite side of the house.
[02:33:36] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And the gate in the rear area of the fence, where does that lead to?
[02:33:40] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So that leads to some woods and then eventually you'll hit some train tracks.
[02:33:45] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now with respect to your phone, that was something that you had upgraded prior to any notification you received from the district attorney's office or anything in relation to preserving the phone, is that correct?
[02:33:59] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:34:00] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now with respect to that, as far as the information contained within the phone, there are certain types of information are you familiar with being sort of backed up by the cloud?
[02:34:10] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:34:11] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Would that include calls?
[02:34:13] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: It could.
[02:34:15] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Could that also include texts? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Could that include photos? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Could that include contacts?
[02:34:20] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:34:21] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And the information that you were shown as far as certain call logs or call records, as far as you know, was that generated after that September 2022 date? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Now, with respect to the preservation, that was in regard to a motion the council had filed for your physical phone, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Are you also aware of a judge's order denying that repeatedly as far as them gaining access to your physical phone? Chief Berkowitz: Objection. Chief Berkowitz: I'll allow it.
[02:34:49] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:34:50] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: It was denied on multiple occasions. Chief Berkowitz: I'll strike the multiple occasions.
[02:34:52] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: You were asked some questions about boxing, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And the boxing that you did, that was in relation to a group associated with the Boston Police Department, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And the boxing that you did, that was in relation to a group associated with the Boston Police Department, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:35:16] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:35:17] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And when was the last time that you were involved in any kind of actual boxing match?
[02:35:22] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Close to 20 years ago.
[02:35:25] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, with respect to some of the training that you were talking about, with respect to the Boston Police Department, you were given some training as far as defensive tactics, is that correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And is that something that is standard that is sort of given and administered to every Boston Police Officer?
[02:35:41] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: So, within the academy, you go to the defensive tactics training. Chief Berkowitz: And that would include John O'Keefe, correct?
[02:35:47] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Now, as far as your house, where you used to live, 34 Fairview Road.
[02:35:50] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: What, if anything, did you observe or notice with reference to cell phone reception in that area of your home?
[02:35:57] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: So, oftentimes, using the phone within my house, it seemed like it was a -- it's a slang term, the dead zone for the phone -- the reception wasn't great.
[02:36:12] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: And is that something that occurred over the time that you lived there? Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:36:32] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Now, with reference to the phone, and prior to the intimate moment that you shared with your wife sometime after 2 a.m., do you recall whether or not the phone screen was locked at that time? Chief Berkowitz: Were you checking that at that particular time?
[02:36:49] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I don't recall the exact timing, but I know it was opened sometimes, and then it was closed, obviously, at some point, but I don't know the exact timing.
[02:36:58] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: So, the phone may not have been locked at the time that you began that situation with your wife?
[02:37:03] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: It may not have been.
[02:37:05] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: In reference to the call logs and phone records that you were shown, the best of your memory, is that the entirety of the phone calls that you made around that time?
[02:37:14] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, it looks like it's selective people in numbers.
[02:37:18] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: And with respect to those conversations, if you recall, what, if anything, in general terms, we'd be discussing with either those people in the logs or other people?
[02:37:28] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: In general, I'm sure there was some discussion about the awful thing that had taken place, and there may have been other calls unrelated as well.
[02:37:37] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Mr. Albert, on the early morning of January 29, 2022, did John O'Keefe ever come into your house that night?
[02:37:47] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: John never came into my house that night. He would have been welcomed, and the defendant would have been welcomed with open arms had they come in, and I wish they had. I really do.
[02:38:00] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Were you ever even aware that John O'Keefe or the defendant were anywhere in the area of your house during that early morning of January 29? Chief Berkowitz: I was not.
[02:38:08] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I had nothing further on it.
[02:38:09] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: Very good.
[02:38:10] Speaker 4: Chief Berkowitz: Okay.
[02:38:11] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: You talked about cell phone reception not being good in your house. When did you and Mr. Lally talk about that cell phone reception issue in your house? Chief Berkowitz: The what? Chief Berkowitz: Cell phone reception issue in your house.
[02:38:28] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: It came up during one of the preps. Chief Berkowitz: Which prep? Chief Berkowitz: I don't remember which prep, probably the last one.
[02:38:35] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: I thought you only had one prep with Mr. Lally.
[02:38:37] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Well, we had the prep before the grand jury, and then I had the prep for this trial. Chief Berkowitz: Okay. Chief Berkowitz: So that's two.
[02:38:42] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: So you brought up the fact that you had that cell phone reception in that preparation? Chief Berkowitz: The conversation came out, yes.
[02:38:48] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: So he was taking notes?
[02:38:49] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: I don't recall if he was taking notes.
[02:38:51] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Was this recorded?
[02:38:52] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: I don't believe so.
[02:38:53] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: And where did you say this conversation took place?
[02:38:54] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: So the prep was at the digital.
[02:38:59] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: The district attorney's office, which is in Canton.
[02:39:03] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: This morning when I asked you, you said you couldn't quite remember where it took place.
[02:39:09] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: You're right, I couldn't remember this morning.
[02:39:11] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: And I asked you, could it have been the DA's office, and now your memory is refreshed? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: What refreshed your memory between this morning and now?
[02:39:18] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: I was just thinking about it in my head and reminded myself that it was the DA's office. Chief Berkowitz: You caught me off guard when you had asked me. Chief Berkowitz: I didn't have it at the top of mind.
[02:39:25] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: Did you talk to Mr. Lally over the lunch hour?
[02:39:30] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Briefly.
[02:39:31] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Bring up the fact that you had cell reception in your house over the lunch hour?
[02:39:36] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Just now, no.
[02:39:37] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: What did you talk about over the lunch hour?
[02:39:40] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Just how much time I was going to have left on the stand. Chief Berkowitz: That was really about it.
[02:39:45] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: So you and Mr. Lally talked about the fact that you've been on cross-examination for two and a half hours, and the conversation consisted of probably another ten minutes.
[02:39:53] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Yeah, I think he was going to lunch or doing something, so.
[02:39:57] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: So you didn't talk about the substance of your testimony? Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: He didn't tell you what questions he was going to ask you on redirect?
[02:40:03] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Maybe he mentioned one thing he may ask me, but that was it.
[02:40:07] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: What was that?
[02:40:08] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Just he was going to ask about what happened at the house. Chief Berkowitz: In the morning. Chief Berkowitz: You know, some of the questions on redirect, that's all.
[02:40:17] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: Meaning he was going to ask you the question about whether or not John came in the house?
[02:40:21] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No. Chief Berkowitz: Not necessarily.
[02:40:23] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: He was going to ask you about whether or not you had that cell reception in the house?
[02:40:26] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:40:27] Speaker 5: Chief Berkowitz: What was he going to ask you?
[02:40:28] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: He was going to ask about the morning of the incident, about coming downstairs and why I didn't go outside.
[02:40:34] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Did he tell you what he thought would be helpful to the Commonwealth?
[02:40:38] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Nope.
[02:40:39] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: Did he tell you how he thought you should answer that question?
[02:40:41] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:40:42] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: He did ask you about a situation concerning the motion to preserve, correct? Chief Berkowitz: No.
[02:40:44] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: I'm sorry. Chief Berkowitz: He asked you on redirect about the motion to preserve? Chief Berkowitz: Oh, yes. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Okay. Chief Berkowitz: And he mentioned that there was a motion that had been denied for us to get for the defense to get access to your physical phone, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: You're aware that that motion was denied in October of 2022, correct? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: You had already gotten rid of your phone a month earlier, hadn't you? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And the preservation order from the judge was still in place when you got rid of that phone, wasn't it?
[02:41:04] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: No, I believe the phone was upgraded prior to the preservation order. Chief Berkowitz: Oh, right.
[02:41:04] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: The day before. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: The day before. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: Got it. Chief Berkowitz: That's all I have. Chief Berkowitz: Okay. Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: You had already gotten rid of your phone a month earlier, hadn't you? Chief Berkowitz: Yes. Chief Berkowitz: And the preservation order from the judge was still in place when you got rid of that phone, wasn't it?
[02:41:25] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: No, I believe the phone was upgraded prior to the preservation order. Chief Berkowitz: Oh, right.
[02:41:30] Speaker 1: Chief Berkowitz: The day before. Chief Berkowitz: Yes.
[02:41:32] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Got it.
[02:41:33] Speaker ?: Chief Berkowitz: That's all I have.
[02:41:34] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: All right, Mr. Albert, you are all set, sir. Chief Berkowitz: Okay, thank you.
[02:41:38] Mr. Lally: Chief Berkowitz: Thank you, Jerry.
[02:41:39] Speaker 3: Chief Berkowitz: Your next witness, Mr. Lally.