About this transcript: This is a full AI-generated transcript of Karen Read Retrial (Pt 12.3) — Jennifer McCabe — Cross Examination from The Trial Channel, published October 18, 2026. The transcript contains 28,762 words with timestamps and was generated using Whisper AI.
"Good morning, Ms. McCabe. Good morning. When was the last time you spoke with Carrie Roberts before your testimony today? She called me last night. What did y'all discuss? She asked if my daughters were going to be staying home from school today. Because her daughter would possibly join them. Did..."
[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Good morning, Ms. McCabe.
[00:00:12] Carrie Roberts: Good morning.
[00:00:13] Speaker 1: When was the last time you spoke with Carrie Roberts before your testimony today?
[00:00:18] Carrie Roberts: She called me last night.
[00:00:20] Speaker 1: What did y'all discuss?
[00:00:26] Carrie Roberts: She asked if my daughters were going to be staying home from school today. Because her daughter would possibly join them.
[00:00:32] Speaker 1: Did you discuss anything having to do with your testimony?
[00:00:35] Carrie Roberts: Not my testimony, no.
[00:00:36] Speaker 1: Did you discuss anything in that conversation with her prior testimony?
[00:00:40] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:00:40] Speaker 1: Are you aware that she testified last week?
[00:00:43] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:00:43] Speaker 1: Did you discuss anything after that, after she testified with her about her testimony?
[00:00:49] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:00:50] Speaker 1: We know that through her testimony that you had a conversation with her the morning that she testified.
[00:00:56] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:00:57] Speaker 1: Did you discuss what you anticipated to be her testimony before, in that conversation, before she testified?
[00:01:03] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:01:03] Speaker 1: Have you and Ms. Roberts ever discussed anything about either one of your testimonies, either in the last proceeding or in anticipation of this proceeding?
[00:01:13] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:01:14] Speaker 1: So for the entirety of the last year, even though you both went through a proceeding last year, where you both testified under oath, and it was highly, highly publicized, neither one of you, your good friend Carrie Roberts, and you, have ever discussed either of your testimonies between that time and this time? No.
[00:01:35] Carrie Roberts: No. No, we've discussed the case, and we've discussed what happened to that moment, the moments of the morning, but we have not discussed testimony. Okay.
[00:01:46] Speaker 1: So let's break that down for a second. I'm talking about, because the timing matters. I'm just asking, at this point, if you'll bear with me, just the year from last year, at a different proceeding, to this year, you have discussed this case.
[00:02:01] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:02:02] Speaker 1: With Ms. Roberts.
[00:02:03] Carrie Roberts: Many times, yes.
[00:02:04] Speaker 1: And you've discussed the specifics of her memory, which would be reflected in her testimony, correct?
[00:02:10] Carrie Roberts: We talked about what happened that morning.
[00:02:12] Speaker 1: So you were talking about what she remembers happening that morning, correct?
[00:02:17] Carrie Roberts: No, what happened that morning.
[00:02:18] Speaker 1: Okay. So, not to put too fine a point on it, Ms. McKay, but if you ask me what I had for dinner last night, it's my memory of what I had for dinner last night. Would you agree to that?
[00:02:30] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[00:02:31] Speaker 1: Did you talk about her perception of what happened that morning, during the last year?
[00:02:41] Carrie Roberts: We've talked about what has happened, yes.
[00:02:43] Speaker 1: Okay. So, I'm trying to break it down between you and Ms. Roberts. You discussed her perceptions and her memory of what happened, as well as, and separate apart from, your memory and your perceptions, correct?
[00:02:58] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[00:02:58] Speaker 1: So, there have been circumstances in which you and Ms. Roberts have compared, by definition, what she remembers versus what you remember, correct? I wouldn't say compare. Now, let's move to the, well, what would you say in terms of what you've discussed and why?
[00:03:16] Carrie Roberts: I would say that we've both talked about what we've discussed, but it wasn't like a comparison. We weren't comparing anything.
[00:03:24] Speaker 1: You've talked about what you discussed. What does that mean? Talked about your testimony?
[00:03:29] Carrie Roberts: No, we've discussed what happened to that moment and those moments. So, you know, oh, when I got a phone call, and that's my story. You know, that's my, I got a phone call in the morning, and then Carrie can say, yeah, I got a phone call as well.
[00:03:46] Speaker 1: As you said, that's your story, correct?
[00:03:48] Carrie Roberts: Not my story. It's the truth. It's the truth.
[00:03:51] Speaker 1: Okay. So, for instance, when you got a phone call at 4.53 in the morning, Carrie Roberts wasn't there, correct? Correct. But you've discussed that with her.
[00:04:00] Speaker ?: Correct.
[00:04:01] Speaker 1: And you've told her what your perception of that, your memory of that phone call was, even though she was not percipient to and did not witness that phone call, correct?
[00:04:10] Carrie Roberts: I've told her about the phone call, correct.
[00:04:11] Speaker 1: As well as many other details that she was not privy to personally, correct? Correct. Conversations that you've had, for instance, conversations that you claim you've had with Ms. Reed, correct? Correct. And you've told her what your perception is of those conversations, or your memory was, or is, of those conversations with Ms. Reed, correct?
[00:04:31] Carrie Roberts: Which conversations with Ms. Reed?
[00:04:32] Speaker 1: Any conversations. Just anything that she wasn't privy to. We've discussed that with her.
[00:04:38] Carrie Roberts: Some things, yes. Oh, absolutely.
[00:04:40] Speaker 4: And conversely, Ms. McCabe, obviously, she's also discussed certain perceptions and memories that she has about this case, and the facts of this case, as she recalls them, that you were not necessarily referred to, correct?
[00:04:52] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:04:53] Speaker 4: Things that may have taken place outside your presence, correct? Correct. And you've talked about things, I'm sorry, she's talked to you about things, now I'm getting myself confused. Y'all have talked about things that were outside of her perception and outside of your perception, and you've shared those with each other.
[00:05:10] Carrie Roberts: We've shared our experiences. We've become very close. We've both lived through a traumatic experience.
[00:05:16] Speaker 1: How many times would you say you and Ms. Roberts have discussed your individual perceptions of what you remember happening on the 28th or the 29th of January 2022? How many times?
[00:05:34] Carrie Roberts: It would be hard to put a number on that. We talk about, it's hard. We're bonded. We talk about the trauma that we relive every day. Karen called us for help, and we both answered the phone.
[00:05:48] Speaker 1: And that bonding is the glue that holds you two together, is this case, correct?
[00:05:54] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:05:55] Speaker 4: So that probably, by definition, is the foundation of many, many, many of your conversations. Will you agree?
[00:06:06] Carrie Roberts: We've grown into friends where we talk about many other things besides the case.
[00:06:11] Speaker 1: Sure. The movie you saw last weekend and what the kids are doing against it.
[00:06:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes. And, yes, absolutely. We talk many different things, just like girlfriends do.
[00:06:19] Speaker 4: I'm just concerned with, by asking you about the subject matter of this case and the details and the facts of this case. You two have probably talked hundreds of times, that's fair to say, about your individual perceptions, your respective perceptions of this case, correct?
[00:06:38] Carrie Roberts: This happened three years ago, and we've talked about it time and time again. This case has traumatized us, so it's a huge part of our lives.
[00:06:47] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
[00:06:48] Carrie Roberts: Oh, I'm sorry. I believe it just, I meant to traumatize our lives.
[00:06:57] Speaker 1: Okay. It would be impossible for you two to have had so many conversations about your respective perceptions of the details of that day without that influencing the other person, correct? You've somehow been influenced by Ms. Roberts' perceptions and her memories, correct?
[00:07:20] Carrie Roberts: I don't think I would say influenced.
[00:07:22] Speaker 1: Would you say that she's been influenced by your perceptions and your memories?
[00:07:27] Speaker 3: Would you say that, Ms. McCabe?
[00:07:29] Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't.
[00:07:31] Speaker 3: Next question.
[00:07:32] Speaker 1: How many times have you met with anybody from the DA's office, and I'm just going to limit the time frame right now, in anticipation of your appearance in this trial yesterday and today?
[00:07:50] Carrie Roberts: I'd say roughly four or five.
[00:07:54] Speaker 1: Can you give me a time frame when those four or five meetings were?
[00:07:59] Carrie Roberts: I don't have dates. I do remember at one point I met with Mr. Brennan. He was new to the case, so I went in and he introduced himself.
[00:08:08] Speaker 1: How long ago was that? Weeks or months?
[00:08:14] Carrie Roberts: Maybe. I can't give you a time frame. I'm sorry.
[00:08:17] Speaker 1: Do you think it was last summer?
[00:08:18] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:08:19] Speaker 1: Do you think it was?
[00:08:19] Carrie Roberts: No, it was more recent.
[00:08:20] Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, sorry. It wasn't in the fall of last year.
[00:08:23] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:08:24] Speaker 1: It was in 2025 sometime?
[00:08:25] Carrie Roberts: I believe so, yes.
[00:08:26] Speaker 1: You think it might have been February, January?
[00:08:29] Carrie Roberts: Again, I can't give you an exact. I'm sorry.
[00:08:33] Speaker 1: All right. I want to talk about the time frames of those conversations, then I'll ask you a little bit more about those conversations. So that was the first meeting that you had was with Mr. Brennan in anticipation of your testimony. What were the subsequent four meetings or so that you had? With whom and approximately what time?
[00:08:51] Carrie Roberts: Okay, so another meeting with Mr. Brennan. Are you looking for who was there?
[00:08:58] Speaker 1: Sure.
[00:08:59] Carrie Roberts: Who else was there? I mean, can I give you a general answer? I didn't write down like every meeting who was there, but generally. Was Mr. Lally there? During one or two of the meetings, he was, yes.
[00:09:09] Speaker 1: Was Ms. McLaughlin there?
[00:09:11] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:09:12] Speaker 1: Was there anybody else from the DA's office there?
[00:09:14] Carrie Roberts: The officer or trooper Tally was there at one. Trooper Buchanek was there at one. The witness advocates were there. And again, give or take the particular meeting.
[00:09:29] Speaker 1: Those are two meetings that you've talked about with Mr. Brennan and others. What about the third meeting?
[00:09:35] Carrie Roberts: No, I'm sorry. I was lumping a few of them together. Sure. I apologize.
[00:09:39] Speaker 1: How many meetings would you have? Let's just start there. How many meetings have you had with Mr. Brennan and either staff or colleagues?
[00:09:47] Carrie Roberts: So after the first initial meeting, I would sit. Again, I didn't write them down off the top of my head. I can think of two or three more after that. Okay. Excuse me, first initial one.
[00:09:59] Speaker 1: So that's either four or five meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues, Mr. Lally, Ms. McLaughlin perhaps, Mr. Nelson perhaps, the other employee of the DA's office, and troopers Buchanek and Trooper Tully. Correct. You asked questions about your, at any of these meetings, I'm just going to lump them all together, any of these five meetings. By the way, when was most recent?
[00:10:27] Carrie Roberts: Last night, I had a Zoom call. Immigods, I think the court asked them to.
[00:10:33] Speaker 1: Yes, I'm going to stop you right there. Oh, okay. I'm going to ask a different question, and if you don't mind, I'm just going to lead you through this question. Okay. You had a conversation last night. I'm not interested in that particular conversation. That was for a very specific purpose. I'm asking you about everything leading up to, but not including last night's conversation, okay?
[00:10:49] Speaker 4: Okay.
[00:10:49] Speaker 1: So let's just leave that one out. You've had, I think you mentioned either four or five other meetings with Mr. Brennan and some combination of his colleagues and or law enforcement.
[00:10:59] Carrie Roberts: Yeah, and I might have, in the five, included that one from last night.
[00:11:02] Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough. Were you asked questions in those, we're just going to call them four, four meetings. Were you asked questions during those four meetings about your testimony at the first proceeding last year?
[00:11:17] Carrie Roberts: I reviewed my, I did review some of my testimony, yes.
[00:11:22] Speaker 1: In what format? I watched. The paper transcript or?
[00:11:25] Carrie Roberts: No, we just watched a little bit of it.
[00:11:27] Speaker 1: Do you watch your direct examination?
[00:11:30] Carrie Roberts: A little bit, yes.
[00:11:31] Speaker 1: Did you watch your cross-examination?
[00:11:32] Carrie Roberts: A little, yes.
[00:11:33] Speaker 1: Who cross-examined you?
[00:11:34] Carrie Roberts: You did.
[00:11:35] Speaker 1: That was me.
[00:11:35] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:11:36] Speaker 1: And did you watch the redirect or any part of it?
[00:11:38] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:11:39] Speaker 1: Did you watch any part of the, any subsequent version of recross or additional questions that you were asked?
[00:11:45] Carrie Roberts: I don't believe so, no.
[00:11:47] Speaker 1: Was there a specific area that Mr. Brennan asked you to look at and review in terms of your direct or your cross-examination?
[00:11:54] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:11:55] Speaker 1: Did you watch the entirety of the direct examination and the entirety of the cross-examination?
[00:11:59] Carrie Roberts: I do not believe so, no.
[00:12:01] Speaker 1: Were you questioned by Mr. Brennan following your review of that, that direct and cross-examination?
[00:12:07] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:12:07] Speaker 1: So he didn't ask you any questions about any of your answers?
[00:12:11] Carrie Roberts: I don't, we would, we, he showed me a dash cam and would ask me to point out who's this, who's that, a waterfall video, who's, is this you, is this somebody? I think those are the type of questions that he asked me.
[00:12:25] Speaker 1: What about, um, what about any discussion about your demeanor and how you performed, uh, in the last proceeding?
[00:12:37] Speaker ?: Yeah.
[00:12:38] Speaker 1: Objection.
[00:12:39] Speaker 3: Objection.
[00:12:39] Speaker 1: I'll ask you a different word. What about your demeanor? I'm using a, probably a poor word, perform, how you, um, came across your demeanor in the last proceeding?
[00:12:48] Speaker 3: Objection. Objection.
[00:12:49] Speaker 1: Did you discuss changing your demeanor at, in any way, shape, form, or fashion from the last trial to, I'm sorry, the last proceeding to this trial, my mistake, and the last proceeding to this trial, was your demeanor ever discussed?
[00:13:03] Carrie Roberts: No, I was just told to slow down, answer the question, and, um, you know, answer it to the best of my memory.
[00:13:11] Speaker 1: Was there any discussion about talking about your background, for instance, your, your family and your children, and being a sports mom, as you talked about in your direct examination?
[00:13:21] Carrie Roberts: No, I believe I did that in the previous one as well.
[00:13:25] Speaker 1: Was there any discussion about crafting your testimony in any way, uh, to suggest a, a softer approach?
[00:13:33] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:13:33] Speaker 1: Uh, was there any discussion about how to develop your testimony, uh, from beginning to end?
[00:13:41] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[00:13:42] Speaker 1: Did Mr. Brennan ask you, uh, about, or, let me ask it a different way. Did Mr. Brennan take you through a series of questions, for instance, as a, uh, almost a, a test run of questions that you might be asked either in direct examination or cross-examination?
[00:13:58] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:13:58] Speaker 1: Did you practice your testimony with any member of the DA's office?
[00:14:03] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:14:03] Speaker 1: Were there any, uh, sessions where you sat and were subjected to, uh, a cross-examination, like a, a fake cross-examination or a fake direct examination?
[00:14:15] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:14:16] Speaker 1: Anything like that?
[00:14:17] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:14:18] Speaker 1: What were the, the things that stand out in your mind? You said you had at least four meetings. How long was each meeting, by the way, ish?
[00:14:26] Carrie Roberts: Uh, the first meeting, I think, was fairly quick. Um, it was just the introduction. Um, 30 minutes?
[00:14:33] Speaker 1: Less than 30 minutes?
[00:14:34] Carrie Roberts: Probably. I, I don't want to give it time, because I'm not sure. Okay. But it was fairly quick, yes. Okay.
[00:14:41] Speaker 1: What about the second meeting?
[00:14:42] Carrie Roberts: Uh, again, I don't know specific meetings, but I can tell you that there was a longer one where I did watch some dash cam video, um, look at different pictures, things like that.
[00:14:54] Speaker 1: Um, what kind of pictures did you look at other than the dash cam video?
[00:15:00] Carrie Roberts: Uh, the pictures of John's house.
[00:15:02] Speaker 1: Okay. The same photos that we saw today? Yes. Uh, how long in total would you say all of those meetings were? Just taking them all together?
[00:15:13] Carrie Roberts: I really can't give you a, uh, uh, I really can't give you an estimate. I think the first one was fairly quick. The second one, you know, one of them was a little bit longer, maybe a couple hours.
[00:15:27] Speaker 1: Okay. Um, then the third one, was that also a couple hours, or was that one fairly quick?
[00:15:33] Carrie Roberts: That was fairly quick, yes.
[00:15:34] Speaker 1: So fair to say between two, three, four hours, uh, total meeting times?
[00:15:46] Carrie Roberts: Again, I'd have to probably go back and look at the date and the time. I really can't give you a specific amount of time. I apologize.
[00:15:55] Speaker 1: Did, uh, Trooper Tully or Trooper Buchanek ask you any questions during the course of any of these meetings?
[00:16:03] Carrie Roberts: Um, regarding the case, no. But we did briefly talk about how my kids were, how their kids were.
[00:16:09] Speaker 1: But they didn't ask you any questions about your testimony, about your case, about the case, about your memories, about specific facts?
[00:16:16] Carrie Roberts: I do not believe so, no.
[00:16:17] Speaker 1: During any of these meetings, was anybody taking notes? Ms. McLaughlin, Mr. Lally, Mr. Brennan, any of the troopers?
[00:16:24] Carrie Roberts: No, I don't believe so.
[00:16:26] Speaker 1: So there was several hours worth of meetings with you and nobody, nobody scribed any notes that you saw?
[00:16:33] Carrie Roberts: None that I saw, no.
[00:16:34] Speaker 1: And these meetings were not recorded?
[00:16:36] Carrie Roberts: I do not believe so, no.
[00:16:44] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, I'm going to ask you a series of questions about your family because I just want to make sure it's crystal clear who's who. You're married to Matt McCabe, correct? Yes. Your sister is Nicole Albert. Yes. Nicole is married to Brian Albert. Yes. It was Brian Albert's home that you were at 34 Fairview, that you arrived at, where John's body was found, correct? Yes. The same home where that late night gathering was on January 28th going into the morning of the 29th, correct?
[00:17:23] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:17:26] Speaker 1: Would you consider yourself to be close with your sister Nicole and Brian?
[00:17:30] Carrie Roberts: Yes, very close.
[00:17:31] Speaker 1: Your families, it's not just you and Nicole, your whole families are close, correct?
[00:17:34] Carrie Roberts: Yes, we have a very close family.
[00:17:36] Speaker 1: How long have you known Brian Albert?
[00:17:39] Carrie Roberts: Since I was in kindergarten.
[00:17:42] Speaker 1: You consider him, even though he is not blood-related to you, you consider him family?
[00:17:48] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:17:50] Speaker 1: In addition to Brian and Nicole Albert, you're also very close with Chris and Julie Albert, correct?
[00:17:58] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:17:58] Speaker 1: Just to be clear, and I'm going to do this slowly, Brian Albert's younger brother is Chris Albert, correct?
[00:18:05] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:18:06] Speaker 1: Chris Albert is married to Julie Albert. Yes. You consider Chris and Julie family, even though there may not be a blood relation as well, correct?
[00:18:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:18:16] Speaker 1: Chris Albert is a Canton Select Board member, is that right?
[00:18:20] Carrie Roberts: Now he is, yes.
[00:18:22] Speaker 1: And the Canton, that's in Canton? I said Select Board member, did I mention Canton Select Board member? It is in Canton, yes. All right, obviously it's in Canton. The Canton Police Department reports to the Select Board, correct?
[00:18:39] Carrie Roberts: I'm not aware.
[00:18:40] Speaker 1: You're not aware of that echelon?
[00:18:41] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:18:42] Speaker 1: Okay. You're aware that Brian Albert, your friend of, I'm not going to say how many years, but since kindergarten, is a, or was, a Boston police officer. Yes. He had been a lifetime law enforcement officer for some 30 years before he retired recently, correct? Yes. He's a trained first responder, obviously. Yes. Brian Albert and Chris Albert have another brother named Kevin Albert, correct? Yes. Kevin Albert is a detective with a police department, correct?
[00:19:20] Carrie Roberts: Yes. I believe that's his title.
[00:19:21] Speaker 1: I'm not going to say. Which police department is Kevin Albert associated with?
[00:19:26] Carrie Roberts: Canton.
[00:19:27] Speaker 1: And you've grown up in Canton your whole life, you indicated.
[00:19:30] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:19:31] Speaker 1: Your entire family has grown up in Canton, correct?
[00:19:33] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:19:34] Speaker 1: And you, Ms. McCabe, have three sisters. Nicole, we've talked about. You also have a sister named Shelly, is that right? Michelle, yes. Michelle.
[00:19:43] Carrie Roberts: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:44] Speaker 1: And Denise, who you mentioned in your direct examination. Yes. Nicole is also known by nickname, is that right? Yes. What is Nicole's nickname within the family?
[00:19:55] Carrie Roberts: Coco.
[00:19:57] Speaker 1: Does Shelly also have a nickname? Well, I guess Shelly is the shortened name for Michelle, correct? Yes. What about Denise?
[00:20:02] Carrie Roberts: She's Dee Dee.
[00:20:03] Speaker 1: Dee Dee?
[00:20:04] Carrie Roberts: Yeah. D-E-E-D-E-E.
[00:20:06] Speaker 1: Your father lives close by in a neighboring town, correct?
[00:20:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:20:15] Speaker 1: Don't tell me the town, but it's relatively close to Canton.
[00:20:19] Carrie Roberts: 20 minutes, yes. Okay.
[00:20:21] Speaker 1: Name is Tom Weeks?
[00:20:22] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:20:28] Speaker 1: There are, I'm not going to go through all of them right now because the family tree is getting large, but there are children, cousins, second cousins, nephews, aunts, uncles. There's a combination of familial relations within that set of folks that I just talked about. Chris and Brian and Nicole and you and Matt and the folks that we just talked about.
[00:20:51] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:20:55] Speaker 1: That family, that large family celebrates holidays together, I'm guessing.
[00:21:00] Carrie Roberts: We don't typically, you know, celebrate with Kevin and Chris, but my family does, yes.
[00:21:06] Speaker 1: Along with Brian, Albert, and Nicole?
[00:21:07] Carrie Roberts: Yes, of course.
[00:21:08] Speaker 1: Birthdays are celebrated within that family. Yes. Go on vacations together, I'm guessing. Yes. Gatherings, like the one on the 28th. Yes. Special events. Yes. Spend weekends together. Yes. You mentioned a lot of sporting events. There's a lot of sporting events that y'all go to together.
[00:21:25] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:21:27] Speaker 1: So it is very, very easy to see that it's an extremely close-knit family.
[00:21:33] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:21:34] Speaker 1: And naturally, you're very protective of your family, as anybody would be.
[00:21:37] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I love my family.
[00:21:38] Speaker 1: You also said that you knew, and your words liked, Karen Reed, my client, on the 28th of January, 2022, correct?
[00:21:49] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:21:50] Speaker 1: But she very much is not family, correct? Correct. She certainly was not as important to you as your actual family. The Alberts, the McCaves, the folks associated with them. Is that right? Yes. On January 28th, 2022, members of the Alberts family and the McCabe family all went to a bar together, had drinks together that night, waterfall, we heard a little bit about that, correct?
[00:22:22] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[00:22:24] Speaker 1: Ultimately, you went back to your sister's house for the after-party that we've heard so much about. That was at Brian Albert's house, is that right? Yes. You've been interviewed, I think you indicated multiple times, you didn't even give a number of how many times you've been interviewed by police in this case, is that right?
[00:22:41] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:22:41] Speaker 1: Your family is connected to people at Boston Police Department, we've just talked about that, Brian Albert, is that right?
[00:22:47] Carrie Roberts: Well, Brian is a Boston Police Officer.
[00:22:50] Speaker 1: Right. So when I say connected, there's some familial or family or friendly connection to that police agency, Boston Police Department, it'd be Brian Albert in this case, correct?
[00:22:59] Speaker 3: The objection is sustained.
[00:23:04] Speaker 1: There's also a connection to the Massachusetts State Police through your family, is that right? Objection.
[00:23:11] Speaker 3: So define connection.
[00:23:15] Speaker 1: Julie and Chris Albert are very, very close to you, correct?
[00:23:19] Carrie Roberts: I'm close with Julie and Chris, yes.
[00:23:21] Speaker 1: You're aware that Michael Proctor's sister, Courtney, is basically best friends with Julie?
[00:23:29] Carrie Roberts: No, I'm not aware of that. She's best friends with Julie's sister, Jillian.
[00:23:35] Speaker 1: Okay. So Courtney is best friends with Jillian, who's sisters to Julie, who's married to Chris, who's an Albert, who's the little brother of Brian Albert. Yes. Okay. And Canton Police Department, there's also some connections there as well. Kevin Albert being the most obvious of them. Objection.
[00:23:54] Speaker 3: I'm going to a wire there.
[00:23:55] Carrie Roberts: Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department? Not with the department, but with Kevin Albert.
[00:24:01] Speaker 1: Right. He's a member of the department.
[00:24:03] Carrie Roberts: Yes. But my relationship's with him.
[00:24:05] Speaker 1: Understood. You've indicated that you've been interviewed by law enforcement agents associated with Massachusetts State, I'm sorry, with Canton Police Department. That'd be Officer Leink. Yes.
[00:24:16] Speaker 3: Can I stop for a second and see counsel at Sidebar, please? Sure. All right, Mr. Jackson, go right ahead. Thank you, Your Honor.
[00:24:23] Speaker ?: Thank you, Your Honor.
[00:24:24] Speaker 1: When last we left off, we were talking a little bit about some of the familial connections that your family has with certain law enforcement agencies. We talked about Boston Police Department, obviously, Brian Albert. We talked a little bit about Massachusetts State Police and knowing friends of friends with regard to Chris and Julie, correct? Yeah.
[00:24:45] Speaker 3: Knowing friends of friends of Chris and Julie?
[00:24:48] Speaker 1: Friends of friends of Chris and Julie.
[00:24:51] Speaker 3: Is that your relationship? With who?
[00:24:56] Speaker 1: I'd ask you about, I'll ask you a different question. Okay. A little bit vague. Courtney Proctor is friends with Julie's sister. Yes. And obviously knows, Courtney also knows Julie and Chris, correct?
[00:25:09] Speaker 3: Sustained.
[00:25:10] Speaker 1: And there's also a connection to Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert. Is that right? Exactly.
[00:25:18] Speaker 3: Can you answer that? Is there a connection? Do you have a connection with the Canton Police Department through Kevin Albert?
[00:25:23] Carrie Roberts: Not with the police department, but Kevin Albert is Brian Albert's brother.
[00:25:27] Speaker 1: Right. And Kevin works for whom?
[00:25:29] Carrie Roberts: The Canton Police.
[00:25:30] Speaker 1: Thank you. So you've been interviewed many times by different law enforcement agencies, be they Massachusetts State Police, Canton Police, or otherwise, correct? Yes. Those interviews have not just been over the period of weeks, it's been over the period of weeks and months and even years since this occurred, correct?
[00:25:49] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:25:51] Speaker 1: You were contacted by another law enforcement agency that was not Massachusetts State Police and not Canton Police Department at one point in April of 2023. Do you remember that? Yes. I want to talk for a second about that series of interviews, or that interview. You were contacted at your residence by these members of this law enforcement agency, correct? Yes. All right. Later that same day, you did sit down with those same law enforcement officers for a formal interview.
[00:26:25] Carrie Roberts: On that?
[00:26:26] Speaker 1: On that same day that you were contacted by them, they also went into your home and actually interviewed you, correct?
[00:26:32] Carrie Roberts: Yes, it was brief.
[00:26:33] Speaker 1: All right. Those law enforcement officers identified themselves as being associated with an agency that is not Massachusetts State Police, you understood that.
[00:26:42] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:26:42] Speaker 1: And you understood that they were not involved with Canton Police Department either, correct? Correct. Completely separate agency, is that right? Yes. During the course of that interview, those officers informed you very specifically, Ms. McCabe, that it is a crime to lie to them, even during an interview, correct? Yes. Those law enforcement officers informed you that they were investigating certain circumstances attendant to John O'Keefe's death, correct?
[00:27:12] Carrie Roberts: They were very vague on what they were. Understood. I don't know what they were investigating.
[00:27:17] Speaker 1: But you did understand that it was having something to do with your involvement at 34 Fairview on January 28th, 29th, 2022. Objection. As a witness or otherwise. Objection.
[00:27:33] Speaker 3: Sustained as to certain terminologies. Sure.
[00:27:37] Speaker 1: Let me see if I can rephrase that, Ms. McCabe. You were aware of the subject matter of their interview, right? They weren't interviewing about a car you bought last year, correct? Correct. They were interviewing you about, basically about what you're testifying to here, correct?
[00:27:54] Carrie Roberts: When I first spoke with them, the conversation was pretty vague.
[00:27:59] Speaker 1: But the subject matter, vague or specific, was about this subject matter?
[00:28:04] Carrie Roberts: Yes. Okay, fair enough.
[00:28:11] Speaker 1: They first contacted you telephonically. They called you on the phone. Is that right?
[00:28:17] Carrie Roberts: Actually, they walked up to my car.
[00:28:19] Speaker 1: They walked up to your car? Yes. Okay, that was the very first introduction, correct?
[00:28:23] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:28:23] Speaker 1: At that point, they had not identified themselves, correct? They didn't, no. All right. And at that point, you told them that you were not Jennifer McCabe. They asked you who you were, and you said, I'm Nicole.
[00:28:32] Carrie Roberts: I thought they were, like, selling something, so I was like, oh, no, I'm not the homeowner.
[00:28:36] Speaker 1: Fair enough, fair enough. However, after they said, sorry, after you said, I'm not Jennifer McCabe, you walked into the house, they then called you on the phone? Yes. They were still sitting outside your house?
[00:28:50] Carrie Roberts: I don't know where they were, but they did call me.
[00:28:52] Speaker 1: They were close by?
[00:28:54] Carrie Roberts: I'm not aware.
[00:28:55] Speaker 1: Well, the call came almost immediately after you walked back in the house, correct?
[00:28:59] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure how much time had passed.
[00:29:01] Speaker 1: Give me an idea. It wasn't an hour.
[00:29:03] Carrie Roberts: No, it was soon after. I'm just not sure. I can't tell you where they were located. I'm sorry.
[00:29:09] Speaker 1: They told you that they would, at that point, they identified themselves as being law enforcement agents, correct?
[00:29:14] Carrie Roberts: When they called me, yes.
[00:29:16] Speaker 1: And they told you at that time that they were not with Canton Police, you knew at least, they were not with Canton Police Department, they were not troopers with Massachusetts State Police, correct? Yes. Okay. And they told you that they would like to have an interview with you, they'd like to have a sit-down talk with you, correct?
[00:29:28] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:29:29] Speaker 1: And you told them that you would be willing to submit to an interview, but you needed about 10 minutes to get ready, correct? Yes. And it was during that formal interview inside the home that it was explained to you that it would be a crime for you to lie to them on any material issue, correct? That's right.
[00:29:57] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:29:57] Speaker 1: During the course of your interview, your husband, Matt McCabe, came home, is that right? Yes. As these law enforcement agents continue to question you, as law enforcement officers continue to question you at some point, you informed them that you did not feel comfortable with any further questioning, and you suspended the interview, correct? Yes. Before leaving, however, those same law enforcement officers asked you if you had contacted anyone in those 10 minutes when you indicated, "I need 10 minutes to get ready," between the time they called you and the time that they showed up and came inside your house, correct? Yes. You told them that you had contacted your husband Matt McCabe, which is why he came home, and you told them that you had called Carrie Roberts before they interviewed you, correct, at that moment?
[00:30:57] Carrie Roberts: Well, I'm not 100% sure, but if you have it, I'll, it seems like something I would do, but if you have it, could show me. Absolutely.
[00:31:09] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. May I report you briefly?
[00:31:12] Speaker 1: Yes. All right.
[00:31:14] Speaker 3: Okay.
[00:31:15] Speaker 1: First, I'm going to ask you, Ms. McCabe, if you recognize that as being a report better, if general?
[00:31:28] Speaker 4: Yes or not?
[00:31:29] Carrie Roberts: It appears to be, yes.
[00:31:31] Speaker 4: May I, uh, please move in the statement and stand by the witness statement for a couple of questions?
[00:31:34] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:31:35] Speaker ?: Thank you. Okay.
[00:31:37] Speaker 4: If I can have that. Sure. I want to direct your attention, if I may, um, for corporate counsel, page three and four, starting with the second to the last full paragraph, going into page five, top full, I'm sorry, page four, top full. Okay.
[00:31:53] Speaker 1: If you could review those two paragraphs, leave them to yourself, to yourself, and then look up and let me know when you're finished. May I approach that? Yes. Thank you.
[00:32:05] Speaker ?: Thank you, Ms. McCabe.
[00:32:06] Speaker 1: Yes. Did reviewing those paragraphs refresh your recollection as to whether or not, as to what you told those agents initially? I'm sorry, what you told those officers initially from that other law enforcement agency, uh, that, about who you contacted in that 10 minute interval? Yes, I told them. And you told them that you, you had contacted your husband, Matt McCabe. Yes. And Carrie Roberts. Correct. I'll stick with that for just a quick second. Mm-hmm. One of the first calls you made after being contacted by this other law enforcement, these other law enforcement officers from a different agency, uh, one of the first calls you made was to Carrie Roberts. Is that right?
[00:32:48] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:32:49] Speaker ?: She was the first one?
[00:32:49] Carrie Roberts: She was the first one.
[00:32:50] Speaker 1: That's what I'm asking. One of the first two calls you made, your husband. Right. Come home. There's law enforcement outside my door. I'm guessing is what you said, correct?
[00:32:59] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:33:00] Speaker ?: I don't remember my exact words.
[00:33:00] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember my exact words now, but I did ask him to come home. Correct.
[00:33:03] Speaker 1: Yes. And Carrie Roberts. Okay. Yes. You wanted to let Ms. Roberts know that you had been contacted by certain officers from a different agency, correct?
[00:33:12] Carrie Roberts: I was curious if, uh, I was curious to, as if they had already been to her.
[00:33:18] Speaker 1: That was my next question. Yeah. You also wanted to find out, have these, uh, law enforcement officers from this different agency contacted her, correct? Yes.
[00:33:28] Carrie Roberts: Because typically, if you enter a town, she's...
[00:33:31] Speaker 1: Ms. McCade, yes or no? Oh, sorry.
[00:33:33] Carrie Roberts: I was just trying to explain.
[00:33:34] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Is that why you contacted her to find out if, in fact, they had contacted her before you? Yes or no? Yes. And you also wanted to find out what she told them, if she had been contacted by them, correct? That was your motive in calling her?
[00:33:51] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:33:52] Speaker 1: So you just wanted to find out had she been contacted, but if she had said yes, you weren't going to say, and what the hell did they say? What'd they ask you?
[00:34:01] Carrie Roberts: Well, I can't, I most, I can't say what I would have answered, what I would have asked her, but I know I was calling to see if they had been there. Yes.
[00:34:11] Speaker 1: That was correct. That was your intent?
[00:34:13] Carrie Roberts: That was correct. That was your intent? I called to ask her if they had been there.
[00:34:16] Speaker 1: Yes. So that was your intent? Yes? Yes.
[00:34:20] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[00:34:24] Speaker 1: Yes. Your motive in calling Carrie Roberts at that moment before your interview was to ensure that your story would line up with her story, Ms. McCabe. Isn't that right?
[00:34:36] Carrie Roberts: No. No, that is not.
[00:34:38] Speaker ?: No, that is not.
[00:34:39] Speaker 1: You wanted to find out if she had talked to these particular law enforcement officers and what she had told them so that your story could somehow align or it could inform how you responded to questions that they asked you. Isn't that true?
[00:34:54] Carrie Roberts: That's not true. We both know what happened. We don't have to have a story. Okay. There is no story.
[00:35:00] Speaker 1: There is what happened and that's it. So if that's true, Ms. McCabe, you have no reason to call Carrie and ask her if she had been contacted by these law enforcement agents because it's just the truth, right?
[00:35:13] Carrie Roberts: We're going through this whole experience together. We call each other about everything. That's nothing more than that.
[00:35:20] Speaker 3: I'm sorry. Let her finish your answer. Go ahead, Ms. McCabe. You can finish that.
[00:35:24] Carrie Roberts: There's nothing more than me calling and saying, "Hey, did they come to your house?" That's what we did when the media showed up, when Ms. Reed's private investigator showed up. We just give each other the heads up. Hey, somebody's coming because we're just like normal moms. We're not used to this.
[00:35:38] Speaker 4: And that's helpful in making sure that the stories she tells are consistent with the stories you tell the different law enforcement agencies, correct?
[00:35:49] Carrie Roberts: No, we are not telling stories.
[00:35:52] Speaker 3: Let her finish. You said no what?
[00:35:54] Carrie Roberts: I said, "No, we're not telling stories. We don't have to compare."
[00:35:57] Speaker 4: And in fact, what you're telling is just the truth. There's no reason for you to inquire about who's contacted her when the police were closed.
[00:36:13] Carrie Roberts: There's no inquiring. It's like when the ice cream truck was at the street next door and I'm saying, "Did the ice cream truck come?" It's really that simple.
[00:36:24] Speaker 3: So you asked a question. No, I understand. An argumentative question and she responded in kind. Next question. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:36:34] Speaker 1: You also testified in your direct examination, staying with Ms. Roberts for just a second, about a timeline that you and Ms. Roberts put together. Correct? Yes. That's another example of the two of you talking about your own perceptions and comparing and contrasting those perceptions and putting it down on paper, correct?
[00:37:05] Carrie Roberts: No. I...
[00:37:07] Speaker 1: Yes or no?
[00:37:08] Carrie Roberts: It's a no. Can I explain or no?
[00:37:10] Speaker 1: No. I'm sure Mr. Ben will have follow-up questions.
[00:37:13] Speaker ?: Okay.
[00:37:14] Speaker 1: After you gave that answer to those law enforcement officers at that separate law enforcement agency, they asked you, "Was there anyone else that you contacted in that 10-minute period before we got a chance to talk to you?"
[00:37:27] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. And your answer was, "No." Correct?
[00:37:30] Speaker 1: Correct. And that was a lie. Correct? It wasn't a lie. No. Was it true? I had... Was it the truth or a lie? It wasn't a lie. Okay. So it was the truth. You had not spoken to any other person. Between the time they contacted you telephonically and you said, "I need 10 minutes," and then they came in the door. During that part of the time, you didn't talk to anybody else or contact anybody else other than Matt McCabe and Carrie Roberts.
[00:37:49] Carrie Roberts: Now your testimony is a lie.
[00:37:50] Speaker 1: Correct.
[00:37:51] Carrie Roberts: And that was a lie. Correct.
[00:37:53] Speaker 1: And that was a lie. Correct. And that was a lie. Correct? It wasn't a lie. It wasn't a lie. No. Was it true? I had... Was it the truth or a lie?
[00:38:03] Speaker 4: It wasn't a lie. Okay. So it was the truth. You had not spoken to any other person. Between the time they contacted you telephonically and you said, "I need 10 minutes," and then they came in the door. Other than Matt McCabe and Carrie Roberts. Now your testimony, that was a true statement.
[00:38:15] Speaker ?: Carrie Roberts.
[00:38:16] Carrie Roberts: I put... I can't answer that yes or no.
[00:38:20] Speaker 5: It's a pretty binary. Had you talked one SMS, in point of fact, you didn't talk to other people. You contacted others.
[00:38:29] Speaker 4: In addition to Matt McCabe and Carrie Roberts, right? Yes or no?
[00:38:33] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[00:38:34] Speaker 4: Okay.
[00:38:35] Speaker 5: When you said no to the answer, did you contact anyone other than Matt and Carrie? That would be, by definition, Mr. McCabe, a lie. Correct?
[00:38:48] Carrie Roberts: No.
[00:38:49] Speaker 5: It's not a lie? Is there some shame of lying among her?
[00:38:53] Carrie Roberts: It's the way you're asking the question. If I could explain, if I could explain... Let me ask you a different way. It would make more sense to you.
[00:39:00] Speaker 1: The agents asked you... I'm going to go over this one more time, then I'm going to move on. The agents asked you, in fact, did you contact anyone between the time we called you and set up the interview and the 10 minutes before we walked in the door? They asked you that question, correct?
[00:39:19] Speaker 3: The objection sustained. Watch the choice of lying.
[00:39:23] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I meant the law enforcement agency. That law enforcement agency, the members of that law enforcement agency, contacted you.
[00:39:33] Speaker 5: Sorry.
[00:39:34] Speaker 1: They asked you who you had contacted between the time they first telephoned you and walked in
[00:39:40] Speaker 4: the door saying, I'm sorry. Correct? Correct. Data point number one. Data point number two, you told them Matt and Carrie, correct?
[00:39:48] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[00:39:49] Speaker ?: And you said no. Is that correct?
[00:39:51] Speaker 5: At that moment, I said no. Yes. Or any more. No, at that moment, because they just come in my house.
[00:40:10] Speaker 3: Only one person can talk at a time.
[00:40:13] Speaker 4: You said the word no.
[00:40:15] Speaker 3: Right. She was finishing her answer for you.
[00:40:19] Carrie Roberts: I had said no, because I'm going to be, I was in a situation where there are two officers from a different agent had come in, were asking me questions, or they had said, can I come in and ask you questions? At first I thought they were selling something. Then they identified themselves. I just dropped my kids off at school. I'm going to be completely honest. I hadn't brushed my teeth. I, so I kind of made some phone calls. Objection, Your Honor. This is no response.
[00:40:47] Speaker 3: So next question. Thank you.
[00:40:49] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, after you said no, that you hadn't contacted anybody else, those two law enforcement officers from that separate agency, who had told you it was a crime to lie to them, they left. Correct?
[00:41:07] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:41:08] Speaker 5: Subsequent to that, Mr. McCabe, your husband, they left you their card so you could call
[00:41:20] Speaker 1: them if need be. Correct?
[00:41:22] Carrie Roberts: Yes, they did.
[00:41:23] Speaker 1: And you in fact did call them back. Correct?
[00:41:26] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[00:41:27] Speaker 1: Without telling me the content of the conversation you had, did you have a conversation with Mr. McCabe? Objection. Sustained. Did you call them back and say, I'm calling you back because my husband told me that I lied to you and I had better clear that lie up.
[00:41:53] Speaker 3: Yeah. So sustained. Jurors, remember I told you before that only answers to questions are evidence? Be mindful of that. Next question. Yes. May I?
[00:42:03] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:42:04] Speaker 1: Thank you, Your Honor. You ultimately called these officers back, correct? Yes. And you explained to them that you had been untruthful with them, correct? I explained that I had forgotten to mention a couple of people that I had reached out to.
[00:42:25] Carrie Roberts: You had forgotten.
[00:42:26] Speaker 1: You had forgotten. Is that your testimony? Yes. You had forgotten. You remembered Matt and you remembered Carrie, but you had forgotten the others that you had just contacted maybe 30 minutes before.
[00:42:40] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:42:41] Speaker 4: There were five people that you contacted.
[00:42:46] Carrie Roberts: I contacted Matt. Let's go through them.
[00:42:50] Speaker 4: Yeah.
[00:42:51] Carrie Roberts: I know far off the top of my head. Okay.
[00:42:54] Speaker 4: Let's go through them.
[00:42:55] Speaker 1: Okay. You contacted your husband, correct? Yes. You contacted Carrie Roberts, correct? Yes. You contacted Peggy O'Keefe, correct? Yes. Then, Ms. McCabe, you contacted the district attorney's office, correct?
[00:43:10] Carrie Roberts: My witness advocate.
[00:43:11] Speaker 1: The district attorney's office.
[00:43:13] Carrie Roberts: My witness advocate who works for the district attorney's office. Thank you, Ms. McCabe.
[00:43:17] Speaker 1: Yes. And you also left out that you contacted Brian Albert himself, correct?
[00:43:25] Carrie Roberts: Yes, my brother-in-law.
[00:43:27] Speaker 1: For some reason, your brother-in-law, who's the 30-year Boston police detective, correct? Yes. And on whose lawn John O'Keefe was found dead or dying? Objectional. I don't know that.
[00:43:43] Speaker 3: Correct?
[00:43:44] Speaker 1: Yes. For some reason, you did not want these officers to know that you had communicated specifically with Brian Albert, the homeowner, just before you talked to them, correct? No, incorrect. There was some reason that was important enough for you to lie about that, even though you had been admonished that it's a crime to lie about that to those officers, correct? Incorrect.
[00:44:11] Carrie Roberts: I didn't lie to them. I had forgotten who I had called.
[00:44:15] Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, you had an epiphany right after they walked out the door?
[00:44:20] Carrie Roberts: Yes. Matt said, "Who have you spoken to?"
[00:44:23] Speaker 1: Objection.
[00:44:24] Speaker ?: I'm going to allow it.
[00:44:25] Speaker 3: It's out and not to go any further, Mr. Johnson.
[00:44:30] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, I want to draw your attention to January 28th. You had gone out drinking with your family at the Waterflower Bar and Grill, correct?
[00:44:45] Carrie Roberts: I went with my husband and met my sister, yes.
[00:44:48] Speaker 1: And met the other family, correct? The other family members. My niece. Meaning Matt McCabe, Nicole, Chris, Julie, Caitlin, correct? Yes. And I think you mentioned Tristan was there as well? Yes. You were later joined by Nick and Karina Kolakithis, is that right? Yes. Ultimately, Brian Higgins showed up? Yes. And Brian Albert showed up? Yes. You previously indicated that Caitlin's boyfriend, Tristan, left early for whatever reason. He had errands to run her and had to get to bed early for some reason, is that right? He left before us, yes. So he didn't stay through the shank of the evening?
[00:45:27] Carrie Roberts: Through the what?
[00:45:28] Speaker 1: The shank of the evening, through the course of the evening.
[00:45:31] Carrie Roberts: Oh, okay.
[00:45:32] Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes. Okay. And ultimately at the Waterfall, John O'Keefe and Miss Reed showed up as well. Yes. You didn't see any tension at all between John O'Keefe and Karen that night, did you? No, I didn't. They appeared to be getting along?
[00:45:49] Carrie Roberts: Yeah.
[00:45:50] Speaker 1: Yes. Sort of a normal couple having a nice evening out together?
[00:45:54] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:45:57] Speaker 1: Neither John nor Karen Reed appeared drunk or inebriated out of sorts?
[00:46:04] Carrie Roberts: No, I wouldn't categorize them as drunk or inebriated. And not- But again, I don't know what, I mean, what the definition of drunk is.
[00:46:12] Speaker 1: Well, that's a fair statement. Yeah. I'm not asking for their BAC, but they didn't appear to be stumbling around, falling all over themselves and sloppy drunk, correct? No. Out of control, nothing like that? No. Okay. Um, you did see Brian Higgins and Brian Albert at a high-talk table sort of together through the course of that evening, correct?
[00:46:34] Carrie Roberts: And we were all kind of around like a long high-talk table.
[00:46:39] Speaker 1: And John O'Keefe, and as you look at that, I'm going to use the perspective of the video that we've seen, that camera angle that we've seen, John O'Keefe and Ms. Reed were sort of further off in the corner, closer to the bar rather than to the tables, correct? Yeah. Along with the Colachitises and you, as a matter of fact.
[00:47:00] Carrie Roberts: Yes. At different times, everyone was kind of moving around. I spent the majority of the time that Karen and John were there speaking with Karen.
[00:47:08] Speaker 1: Did, and that was sort of over toward the bar?
[00:47:12] Carrie Roberts: We weren't in the bar. We were at the table. So it was one side of the table and the other. Fair enough. It wasn't like far away.
[00:47:19] Speaker 1: Right. I'm using the bar sort of as a landmark. I didn't mean you were sidled up to the bar, but just sort of as a landmark. You were closer to the bar than, for instance, in the foreground, which would be the high-top tables in the foreground, correct?
[00:47:30] Carrie Roberts: We were just on the other. I'm confused about this. We were just on the other side of the table.
[00:47:35] Speaker 1: Okay. You did see on the opposite side of that high-top table, that's where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were standing, talking and communicating with each other. Is that right? I believe so.
[00:47:47] Carrie Roberts: I was talking to Ms. Reed. I wasn't really paying attention to them.
[00:47:50] Speaker 1: Did you ever see those two men get physical with one another that night?
[00:47:54] Carrie Roberts: I did not. That night I did not see that.
[00:47:59] Speaker 1: Have you ever seen a full review in all the hours that you've sort of prepped for your testimony? Have you been shown that waterfall video from the time you got there until the time you left?
[00:48:09] Carrie Roberts: Not the full video, but I have seen a good portion of it, yes.
[00:48:13] Speaker 1: Okay. And you've certainly seen the portion where Brian Albert and Brian Higgins get up from the table and sort of get physical with one another, correct?
[00:48:21] Carrie Roberts: I would say more like play-fighting, and Nick Kolakidis was a little bit like doing it with them as well. Okay.
[00:48:28] Speaker 1: So the physical part is, all I'm asking is do they touch each other? Yes.
[00:48:33] Carrie Roberts: Yeah, I guess. I mean, yeah, I guess. Yeah.
[00:48:36] Speaker 4: And you described it as play-fighting, correct?
[00:48:38] Carrie Roberts: I don't, we could watch the video and might explain it better than I could.
[00:48:42] Speaker 4: I don't remember them squaring off, like I said, I just watched the video.
[00:48:55] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember it from that night and I didn't really pay attention. It looked like foolish, like guys just, I don't, I don't even know how to describe it.
[00:49:04] Speaker 1: From your perspective, having watched the video, it appeared that they spread off on each other and sort of took a fighting stance.
[00:49:11] Carrie Roberts: I didn't look at that in depth, so I could not say that.
[00:49:14] Speaker 5: Did you see them walk up to each other and grapple with one another? Like they were thin and nose punching each other. Right. I guess that. When they grappled with one another, like faking punches to each other.
[00:49:25] Carrie Roberts: I don't know.
[00:49:26] Speaker 5: Almost like sparring a little bit.
[00:49:29] Carrie Roberts: To be, I don't honestly know. I saw them together. It's blurry and they're kind of, I don't know really what they're doing.
[00:49:37] Speaker 4: Okay, but they won't stand in their hands for a second.
[00:49:39] Carrie Roberts: Oh God, no.
[00:49:40] Speaker 4: No.
[00:49:43] Carrie Roberts: They were engaging with each other, play, playfully grabbing at each other. I don't really.
[00:49:48] Speaker 4: Playfully grabbing each other, play fighting, correct? That's not fair.
[00:49:53] Carrie Roberts: I'd have to watch the video to categorize it as play fighting.
[00:49:56] Speaker 4: You don't have that in their time.
[00:49:57] Carrie Roberts: I didn't, no, it was a quick clip. I wasn't like focusing on Brian O'Brien. I was just identifying that that was myself in the video and there was Miss Reed. And I believe Miss Reed actually did some play fighting to Matt.
[00:50:10] Speaker 4: There was in fact to Matt. Yeah.
[00:50:13] Carrie Roberts: I feel like she was about like this to Matt at one point. Yeah. In the video.
[00:50:17] Speaker 1: So let's talk about, let's talk about Brian and Brian, right? Mm-hmm. Those two men, very large in structure, correct?
[00:50:25] Carrie Roberts: They're the guys, yeah.
[00:50:26] Speaker 1: Big ones. Mm-hmm. A lot bigger than me, right?
[00:50:29] Carrie Roberts: Yeah.
[00:50:30] Speaker 1: They took a fighting span from each other and started grappling, playing, coming toward each other as if they were engaging in a fake physical altercation, correct? I did not see that.
[00:50:40] Carrie Roberts: I'm sorry. Okay.
[00:50:42] Speaker 1: You didn't even see it on the video.
[00:50:45] Carrie Roberts: I saw them on the video grabbing at each other. I didn't see stances or, but again, I didn't pay much attention to it.
[00:50:53] Speaker 1: And that's your best memory as you sit here today? Yes. Okay. Eventually, you, your husband, Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole, Caitlin, everybody went over to 34th Fairview at the end of the night, correct? Yes. The bar closed at, I'm guessing midnight. Okay.
[00:51:15] Carrie Roberts: Is that right?
[00:51:16] Speaker 1: I think.
[00:51:17] Carrie Roberts: We were wrapping up around then. I don't know what time it actually closes.
[00:51:20] Speaker 1: When you left Waterfall, the people that were still there included Matt, your husband, and John O'Keefe. Is that right? Yes. You walked out with Karina Kolakithis and Karen Reed. Yes. And you said to Ms. Reed something along the lines of, "You're coming with me," correct?
[00:51:39] Carrie Roberts: I said, "Why don't you come with me?"
[00:51:41] Speaker 1: Okay. Fair enough. You were prompting her to join you for the ride over to 34th Fairview. Is that right?
[00:51:48] Speaker ?: Yes.
[00:51:49] Speaker 1: You even went outside and sort of waited in the cold. There's a video. Have you seen the video of you outside? The surveillance video of you outside in the cold?
[00:51:57] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:51:58] Speaker 1: And you're sort of waiting there, moving from foot to foot like it's freezing out, which I'm sure it was, correct?
[00:52:04] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:52:05] Speaker 1: In a big puffy coat of some kind, right?
[00:52:07] Carrie Roberts: So the question, was I moving foot to foot in a coat? Yes.
[00:52:11] Speaker 1: My question is more, did you see yourself waiting outside the cold? I saw myself convert.
[00:52:15] Carrie Roberts: I believe I was in a conversation at that point when I was standing out there with John and Karen.
[00:52:20] Speaker 1: And that's when you were asking Karen to come with you?
[00:52:22] Carrie Roberts: No, I had asked Karen previously when we were at the door to come with me because I didn't know how long Matt and John were going to be in the bar because they were in there still.
[00:52:31] Speaker 1: And that would have by definition brought Karen to 34 Fairview separate and apart from John O'Keefe if Karen had come with you. Yes. Ms. Reed ultimately declined your invitation and did go with John, is that right?
[00:52:54] Carrie Roberts: John ended up coming to the door so they just weren't together, yes.
[00:52:57] Speaker 1: And finally you walked away and went with your husband Matt over to 34 Fairview in your personal vehicle, correct?
[00:53:03] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:53:07] Speaker 1: When you arrived at 34 Fairview, were you the first among the group that we've just talked about to arrive or had others arrived before you?
[00:53:16] Carrie Roberts: Others had arrived before me.
[00:53:18] Speaker 1: When you walked in to 34 Fairview, where was everybody generally located? Give me a layout of the interior of the home, how you walked in and where everybody was located, the people that were there when you walked in from the waterfall.
[00:53:33] Carrie Roberts: So I walked in through the front door, I took her right into the kitchen, and then there were people sitting around the kitchen table, Brian Albert Jr., Julie Nagel, Sarah Levinson, Caitlin Albert. My sister was over more towards like the counters and the sink, and Brian Albert and Brian Higgins were, there's like a room right off of the kitchen, like a TV room, and they were in there just talking. I think Nicole had like put up some new pictures, so, or maybe the Sun and the Marines, they might have been looking at a picture. I vaguely have a faint memory of that.
[00:54:15] Speaker 1: You indicated that you walked in the front door, correct?
[00:54:17] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:54:20] Speaker 1: May I approach briefly?
[00:54:21] Speaker 3: Yes.
[00:54:22] Speaker 1: Can you just take a look at that photograph for just a quick second? Yes. Do you recognize that photograph? Yes. What do you recognize that photograph as being?
[00:54:31] Carrie Roberts: It's my sister's house. 34 Fairview? Yes, sorry, 34 Fairview.
[00:54:34] Speaker 1: Brian Albert's house as well.
[00:54:35] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:54:36] Speaker 1: Your Honor, I'd like to mark this as marked for identification. There's a…
[00:54:41] Speaker 3: Identification's problem.
[00:54:42] Speaker 1: Thank you. If I'm any… Your Honor, with the porch permission, I'm going to show a different exhibit until the other issue can be resolved. With the porch permission, it's Commonwealth Exhibit 3. Permission to publish? Yes. Yes. Mr. Wall, could you highlight or enlarge the house as much as you can? Yes. Thank you. Ms. McKay, do you recognize what's depicted in this photo? I know it's a little bit of an angle. Yes. What is that?
[00:55:14] Carrie Roberts: That is 34 Fairview.
[00:55:16] Speaker 1: Okay. Can you… I think this laser will work. Can I approach? Yes. Use that laser and point to the front door that you entered when you walked in the house. Okay. That's directly in the middle of the… just to the left of the flagpole for purposes of this photograph, correct? Yes. Okay. Is there another entry door on the house that you may not be able to see, but you know the general area? Yes. Where is that door?
[00:55:51] Carrie Roberts: So that would be… see where these two windows are? Yes. The door would be kind of behind that right there. So it's right to the left of those two windows.
[00:55:59] Speaker 1: And Ms. McKay, just staying with doors for a second, is there another door associated with the garage?
[00:56:04] Carrie Roberts: Oh, actually, yeah, there is. Right there.
[00:56:08] Speaker 1: Right there next to that side door? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yes. You didn't go in the side door, you went in the front door that night?
[00:56:16] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:56:17] Speaker 1: You indicated that once inside the house, you were sort of in the kitchen area, is that right?
[00:56:30] Carrie Roberts: I was in the kitchen, yes.
[00:56:31] Speaker 1: You weren't paying special attention to Brian Albert or Brian Higgins, what they were doing. As a matter of fact, I think they went into a different room, is that right?
[00:56:39] Carrie Roberts: Yes. It's a room, kind of the kitchen opens up into the TV room. So they were in there.
[00:56:43] Speaker 1: So the only two that you recognized at this point in the night, not being sort of with everybody else, were Brian Albert and Brian Higgins separated out in the family room or whatever that room is called, living room?
[00:56:56] Carrie Roberts: Yeah. Yeah. Like just right there, you know, right where they are. Okay.
[00:57:00] Speaker ?: Just kind of right in the next room.
[00:57:03] Speaker 1: When you first pulled up, did you notice any vehicles in front of Brian Albert's house? Yes, I did. What vehicles did you notice, vehicle or vehicles?
[00:57:13] Carrie Roberts: Just one.
[00:57:14] Speaker 1: What was that vehicle?
[00:57:15] Carrie Roberts: It was a Jeep.
[00:57:17] Speaker 1: Can you describe the Jeep for us, please? I really can't.
[00:57:20] Carrie Roberts: All I can say is that when I pulled down, the Jeep was parked on the street in front of the mailbox and I turned into the driveway. Okay.
[00:57:28] Speaker 1: Did the Jeep have any special features on it that you remember, that you can describe? No.
[00:57:36] Carrie Roberts: Not that I can recall.
[00:57:38] Speaker 1: Big giant snow plow on the front?
[00:57:41] Carrie Roberts: Again, it was dark. I just, I didn't really pay much detail to it beyond I just asked whose Jeep is that. And did you learn whose Jeep that was?
[00:57:48] Speaker 1: I did, yes. Whose Jeep was it?
[00:57:50] Carrie Roberts: It was Brian Higgins Jeep.
[00:57:52] Speaker 1: And you said that it was parked in front of the mailbox, is that right? Yes. So as you're looking at the house, the mailbox would be closest to the driveway, is that right? Yes. Rather than, for instance, the flagpole on the other side of the lawn. Correct.
[00:58:09] Carrie Roberts: So if the flagpole's here, there's the lawn and then here's the drive. I mean, here's the mailbox and then the driveway's over here. Okay. Does that make sense?
[00:58:17] Speaker 1: It does to me. Okay. Thank you for that. You've previously indicated that the back edge of his, of that vehicle, Brian Higgins' Jeep, was at the side, basically, of the driveway, which is what you've just described. It would be blocking the mailbox, the rear end associated with the driveway entrance. Correct?
[00:58:36] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:58:37] Speaker 1: Have you ever discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else in this case?
[00:58:48] Carrie Roberts: Is that including previous testimony or?
[00:58:51] Speaker 1: It is. At any time. Before you testified at the previous hearing, had you discussed having seen that Jeep in that spot with anybody else? For instance, your husband. He's here. Was there any other car on that curb line, if you will, other than the Jeep when you pulled in?
[00:59:16] Carrie Roberts: Not that I remember.
[00:59:18] Speaker 1: And Brian Higgins, if it's his Jeep, he's in the house, that Jeep's not moving. Correct? So it stayed where it was?
[00:59:24] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:59:25] Speaker 1: At some point, did you observe Ms. Reed's vehicle pull up to the driveway? I'm sorry, pull up to the house.
[00:59:36] Carrie Roberts: I was told there was a vehicle outside, so I went and looked.
[00:59:39] Speaker 1: Yes. Where was that vehicle? When you looked that first time, where was Ms. Reed's SUV?
[00:59:46] Carrie Roberts: When I went to the front door and looked out, it was straight ahead.
[00:59:49] Speaker 1: Okay. So that would be parallel, actually in line with the Jeep, correct?
[00:59:56] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[00:59:57] Speaker 1: Directly in front of the Jeep?
[00:59:58] Carrie Roberts: I don't know the distance, but yes, you're correct. It was in front of the Jeep.
[01:00:01] Speaker 1: So if the Jeep was a normal, it's a full-size Jeep, correct?
[01:00:05] Carrie Roberts: I do not. I don't know what size it is.
[01:00:09] Speaker 1: Certainly the SUV is a full-size SUV. Yes. All right. So that would take up much of the room of the curb area in front of 34 Fairview. Between the Jeep, assuming there's a snow plow, and a full-size SUV, correct?
[01:00:25] Carrie Roberts: I'm not really sure of the whole area, but there was the Jeep and then there was the car. I just don't know the distance between them.
[01:00:31] Speaker 1: You gave a description of the vehicles that were out in front of 34 Fairview in your January 29, 2022 interview with Trooper Proctor, correct?
[01:00:44] Carrie Roberts: He came to my house and asked me questions, correct?
[01:00:48] Speaker 1: When you gave that interview to Trooper Proctor, you indicated to him that you first observed Ms. Reed's vehicle parked on the street by the driveway, correct?
[01:01:00] Carrie Roberts: I never said by the driveway, no.
[01:01:02] Speaker 1: So if that's in a report, Trooper Proctor got that fact wrong, got that detail wrong.
[01:01:07] Speaker 3: I'm sustained.
[01:01:09] Speaker 1: If in fact... Well, let me ask it this way. What did you say to Trooper Proctor about where that vehicle was?
[01:01:25] Carrie Roberts: Ms. Reed's vehicle?
[01:01:27] Speaker 1: Correct.
[01:01:28] Carrie Roberts: I told him it was straight out front, the window. Oh, the straight out front of the front door. Sorry.
[01:01:34] Speaker 4: To Trooper Proctor wrote a report about who's interviewed with you, correct?
[01:01:44] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[01:01:45] Speaker 1: You've seen that report in other hearings, is that right?
[01:01:48] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:01:52] Speaker 1: Your interview with him was... On January 29th, do you remember the date? I'm sorry. I just said the date. Do you remember the time? My mistake.
[01:02:10] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember the exact time. I'm assuming afternoon, like after 12 or I'm not 100%. Sorry.
[01:02:17] Speaker 1: You had been contacted by Trooper Proctor while you were still at 34 Fairview. Is that right? Yes. Ultimately, instead of coming from the Canton Police Department to 34 Fairview, you went home to your house. I did. To the Country Lane address. Yes, I did. And Trooper Proctor ended up meeting you there, correct? Yes. And in addition to you and Matt being there, Brian Albert showed up, correct?
[01:02:40] Carrie Roberts: I asked him to come.
[01:02:41] Speaker 1: So you asked your brother-in-law to come to the interview that you were having with Trooper Proctor formally in furtherance of his investigation surrounding the circumstances of this case.
[01:02:57] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:02:58] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:02:59] Speaker 1: But Brian Albert did show up at your house. He did.
[01:03:01] Carrie Roberts: I asked him to come, yes.
[01:03:02] Speaker 1: And he was inside the house when Trooper Proctor ultimately interviewed you, correct? He was in the house, yes. And you'd spoken to Brian Albert before Trooper Proctor had interviewed you formally, correct? I believe so, yes.
[01:03:13] Carrie Roberts: I believe so, yes.
[01:03:14] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, several times you had to have spoken to him at 34 Fairview. You've already said that, right? Oh, right.
[01:03:18] Carrie Roberts: Yeah.
[01:03:19] Speaker 1: We were out there in the kitchen. And then obviously you spoke to him about the interview before Trooper Proctor got to your house to interview you on the 29th as well, correct?
[01:03:26] Carrie Roberts: We were just talking about what happened. It wasn't like specifically about Trooper Proctor. Right.
[01:03:32] Speaker 1: Not about Trooper Proctor. You talked to Brian Albert about the circumstances of this case before you spoke with Trooper Proctor. Yes, I had. Do you remember exactly what you said to Trooper Proctor about the location of the SUV in front of the house?
[01:03:54] Carrie Roberts: I know what I said, yes. Okay.
[01:03:56] Speaker 1: What exactly did you say?
[01:03:57] Carrie Roberts: I said the car was straight out front of the front door. When I was looking out the front door, it was straight ahead.
[01:04:06] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that what you actually said, Ms. McCabe, is that you first observed the vehicle parked on the street by the driveway facing in the direction toward Chapman. Objection.
[01:04:19] Speaker 3: I'll allow it. Is that what you said?
[01:04:21] Carrie Roberts: Those are not my words, no.
[01:04:23] Speaker 3: Okay, next question.
[01:04:28] Speaker 1: You've already indicated that following the events of January 28th and 29th, you have spoken extensively with your family and your friends, members of your family and your friend group about what happened that night, correct?
[01:04:41] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:04:42] Speaker 1: And that includes Brian and Nicole Albert, is that right? Yes. That includes Matt McCabe, your husband, correct? Yes. That includes Chris and Julie Albert? Yes. That includes other people that were there that night, including Brian Higgins?
[01:04:55] Carrie Roberts: I haven't spoken to Brian Higgins since, I believe, John O'Keefe's wake.
[01:05:00] Speaker 1: But you did speak to him that morning at 34 Fairview, is that right?
[01:05:04] Carrie Roberts: Oh, yes. He was there, yes.
[01:05:06] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, he's the one that told you to call Officer Lank back and have Officer Lank come back for the additional statement that you wanted to give Officer Lank.
[01:05:14] Speaker ?: Is that right?
[01:05:15] Carrie Roberts: He may have suggested it, I'm not sure.
[01:05:19] Speaker 1: So, in those discussions that you've had with all these folks, you've talked to the details about that night being at the bar, the house, who was where, all of those things, correct? Yes. You've talked about the timing of the night, who arrived, when people arrived at 34 Fairview, when people arrived at Waterfall Bar and Grill, correct?
[01:05:36] Carrie Roberts: No, those really aren't details we discuss. I mean, everybody kind of knows when they came and when they left. We talk more about, you know, living with everything that we've gone through.
[01:05:48] Speaker 1: Well, what about on the morning of January 29th, when everybody was still in that sort of friends and family gathering inside 34 Fairview?
[01:05:58] Carrie Roberts: When I was there with my husband and sister and brother-in-law and, you know, then Brian's friend and Julie Albert, I was trying to piece together what had happened. They were all being supportive. They had no idea what happened. We were just kind of sitting there in utter shock, waiting to hear from Carrie about John. It was nothing more than just us being together and trying to figure out what had happened. I had gotten a phone call from Karen to help her.
[01:06:26] Speaker 1: And during that conversation, during that conversation or that series of conversations, you were sharing what your observations of that evening were, what your story was, how the evening started, how it ended for you, correct? Or the morning ended for you, correct?
[01:06:39] Carrie Roberts: We didn't, no, I'm not correct.
[01:06:45] Speaker 1: During the time that you folks were inside the house discussing this, there was no law enforcement agent or officer inside that house, correct? Correct. So the entire family and the friend network that we're talking about, with whom you discussed all these events, everybody was entitled to and did coordinate their statements without any separation and without any law enforcement oversight, correct?
[01:07:11] Carrie Roberts: I was with my family. My sister, my brother-in-law, it wasn't really a big group of us. As I've mentioned, I had five or six people. I was in shock. I didn't know what had happened. They were just asking me what happened, questions like that. And I absolutely told them, but it was no story. There was no us being allowed to do it. That was my family. They were just there with me. But nobody was separated by law enforcement, correct? I don't believe there was a reason to separate us.
[01:07:38] Speaker 1: Well, notwithstanding what you think was the reason, you're not a professional investigator, correct?
[01:07:43] Carrie Roberts: I'm not, no.
[01:07:44] Speaker 1: You're not a trained investigator. No. You're certainly not a homicide detective, correct? No. None of you witnesses were ever separated, were you that morning?
[01:07:50] Carrie Roberts: There was no reason to separate us.
[01:07:52] Speaker 4: I was with my family, we didn't need to be allowed.
[01:08:03] Carrie Roberts: Okay.
[01:08:04] Speaker 5: I'm trying this again. Was anybody in that house separated? Were the witnesses separated from each other?
[01:08:10] Speaker 4: The family who are witnesses separated from each other. By law enforcement.
[01:08:15] Carrie Roberts: At that point, I don't think anyone but myself and Matt were maybe even witnesses.
[01:08:20] Speaker 4: Okay. I'm not asking you what your determination of who the witnesses are. I'm asking you whether the folks in that house were separated by law enforcement before you were able to have discussions about the events of January 28th or 29th. That's a yesterday question. Were you separated or not?
[01:08:38] Carrie Roberts: At one point, when Mike Lank was in the house, he had separated and talked to Nicole, then Brian, and then Matt.
[01:08:44] Speaker 4: And then he promptly left and left everybody in the house together, correct?
[01:08:48] Carrie Roberts: He left us, yeah. Right.
[01:08:50] Speaker 1: Nobody was taken down to the station, is that right?
[01:08:55] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:08:56] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Trooper Proctor didn't even come over to 34 Fairview, the scene of the incident, to interview you, correct?
[01:09:04] Carrie Roberts: I asked him to meet at my house because I had to go home to my children.
[01:09:08] Speaker 1: And he accommodated you, didn't he? He did, yes. And he accommodated the fact that Brian Albert escorted you to the house for your interview, correct?
[01:09:16] Carrie Roberts: Brian didn't escort me, no.
[01:09:18] Speaker 1: Well, he went to your house at the same time that Trooper Proctor was there to interview you, correct?
[01:09:23] Carrie Roberts: He came at some point, yes, by himself.
[01:09:25] Speaker 1: Before Trooper Proctor did the interview.
[01:09:28] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if he was there, if he got there before or when he arrived.
[01:09:32] Speaker 1: Well, you've testified in the past that Brian Albert came to your house alone. I don't mean you came in the same car. Yes. They followed you over to your house before Trooper Proctor ever got there. And he was in the house while Trooper Proctor conducted his interview, correct?
[01:09:47] Carrie Roberts: Yes, Brian was in the house for the interview. Thank you.
[01:10:00] Speaker 1: You've already indicated that you have been discussing this case with certain other witnesses, not for days or weeks or months, but literally for years, most specifically Carrie Roberts, correct?
[01:10:11] Carrie Roberts: The case in general, yes.
[01:10:17] Speaker 1: Just before Carrie Roberts testified at a grand jury proceeding in this case, you were with her, weren't you?
[01:10:28] Carrie Roberts: I don't recall what you're talking about.
[01:10:32] Speaker 1: Do you remember being at the grand jury? Yes. Do you remember testifying at the grand jury?
[01:10:38] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:10:39] Carrie Roberts: The one back in April? April. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Sounds about right.
[01:10:47] Speaker 4: Yeah. Do you remember being there in an anti-room with some other folks?
[01:10:51] Carrie Roberts: What's an anti-room?
[01:10:52] Speaker 1: An anti-room? A waiting room? Oh, yeah. Yes. Do you remember Carrie Roberts being with you in that exact same anti-room? Yes. And that was right before her testimony, correct? I believe so, yes.
[01:11:02] Speaker 4: Any answer to my question?
[01:11:03] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. You two were together with you just before she testified at the grand jury proceeding,
[01:11:05] Carrie Roberts: the first formal underword testimony that she ever gave. Is that right?
[01:11:07] Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. When she testified at the grand jury, was that before or after you two had gotten together and created this timeline? We did the timeline right after John had passed. So she testified. The answer is, she testified after the first formal underword testimony that she ever gave. Is that right?
[01:11:18] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:11:19] Speaker 1: When she testified at the grand jury, was that before or after you two had gotten together and created this timeline?
[01:11:37] Carrie Roberts: We did the timeline right after John had passed.
[01:11:41] Speaker 1: So she testified. The answer is, she testified after the timeline was created, correct? Yes. Brian Albert and his family had a dog on January 29th, 2022. Did they not?
[01:11:58] Carrie Roberts: Yes, they did.
[01:11:59] Speaker 1: What was that dog's name?
[01:12:00] Carrie Roberts: Chloe.
[01:12:01] Speaker 1: What kind of dog was Chloe?
[01:12:02] Carrie Roberts: A German Shepherd.
[01:12:04] Speaker 1: Was it a, do you know if it was a purebred German Shepherd or a mix of Malinois and German Shepherd or do you know?
[01:12:09] Carrie Roberts: I have no idea. Big dog. Yeah.
[01:12:12] Speaker 1: Big size dog.
[01:12:13] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:12:14] Carrie Roberts: 70 pounder. I don't know its weight.
[01:12:16] Speaker 1: Wasn't a little munchkin dog though. No.
[01:12:19] Carrie Roberts: It's a full size German Shepherd. It's a full size.
[01:12:21] Speaker 1: Yeah. So, on the morning that you described going into the house, January 29th, 6:40 AM or so, you indicated that you burst into the bedroom to wake your sister and Brian Albert. Is that right?
[01:12:37] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I went into the bedroom. It's still dark out, correct?
[01:12:40] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:12:41] Speaker 1: There had been relative chaos on the lawn for a number of minutes, from about 6:10 until at least 6:40. There were still emergency vehicles with lights on and engines running. Chaos, relative chaos.
[01:13:02] Speaker 4: Then one, as somebody has said, on that front lawn, correct?
[01:13:07] Carrie Roberts: It was more on their side lawn and down the street, kind of like all the cruises. A lot of them were behind their lawn.
[01:13:14] Speaker 4: Right from the front at 34th Airview, correct?
[01:13:19] Carrie Roberts: To the side, in the side yard of 34th Airview, yes.
[01:13:23] Speaker 4: And on the lawn of 34th Airview. Yes. Where the first responders were responsible, correct? Yes. And you said that night was screaming to the top of your lungs, is that right? Yes, she was. And Kara Roberts screaming back at her? Yes. Shut the fuck up, right? Yes.
[01:13:39] Carrie Roberts: Yeah.
[01:13:40] Speaker 1: Then at 6:40 AM, under the cover of darkness, you walked in the front door, the unlocked front door of Brian Albert's house, correct?
[01:13:52] Carrie Roberts: I went into my sister's house, correct?
[01:13:54] Speaker 1: It wasn't Brian Albert's house?
[01:13:55] Carrie Roberts: And Brian Albert, yes, I'm sorry.
[01:13:58] Speaker 1: You then climbed the stairs up toward the bedrooms, correct?
[01:14:02] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:14:03] Speaker 1: You walked into the bedroom door, where Brian Albert and Nicole Albert, according to you, were sleeping. Is that right? Yes. So you would agree that you unexpectedly, in terms of their view, unexpectedly walked into their house, basically in the middle of the night, middle of the morning? Yes. You indicated that when you went through their bedroom door, you sort of burst through, correct? I opened the door. I don't know if I used the word burst. You previously indicated that when you went through the door, it was chaotic because you were so amped up from the events. Is that right?
[01:14:44] Carrie Roberts: I don't know if I used those words.
[01:14:51] Speaker 1: Would you say that you were loud or quiet?
[01:14:56] Carrie Roberts: I think as I explained earlier, I was like where everything was going on around me and I was kind of like in a, just a state of shock. And I remember thinking, I don't want to startle them, but I have to wake them up because obviously when I wake them up, they're going to be panicked and think something terrible happened. Well, why didn't you want to startle them?
[01:15:15] Speaker 1: Something terrible had happened.
[01:15:17] Carrie Roberts: I didn't want to give them a heart attack when I woke them up.
[01:15:19] Speaker 1: But you didn't walk up and just nudge and say, hey, Nicole, can you wake up or something?
[01:15:25] Speaker 4: You didn't do that.
[01:15:26] Carrie Roberts: No, I was like, Brian, Brian, Nicole, wake up, wake up. Exactly.
[01:15:30] Speaker 1: But you weren't saying it in that voice either. You were saying, Brian, Brian, Nicole, get up.
[01:15:35] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if it was that loud, but I definitely was, definitely like trying to wake them up. Yes.
[01:15:43] Speaker 1: What was the dog's reaction?
[01:15:45] Carrie Roberts: I don't recall seeing the dog.
[01:15:48] Speaker 1: So, according to you, to the dog at least, when you get in the mind of a dog, a relative stranger walks in the front door, climbs a set of stairs, the house is completely dark, walks into a bedroom door and starts barking. The person starts barking, get up, wake up, Brian, Nicole. And you don't remember seeing or hearing a dog at all. Sustain. As you indicated, it's not that the dog wasn't reactive. It's that you don't remember the dog even being there. Correct?
[01:16:30] Carrie Roberts: I have no memory of the dog now.
[01:16:32] Speaker 1: But you do know that that dog sleeps in Brian and Nicole's room. Correct?
[01:16:41] Carrie Roberts: It may. I don't know for sure.
[01:16:43] Speaker 1: The reason you don't remember the dog being there is because the dog wasn't there, was it?
[01:16:59] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember the dog. I don't remember the dog.
[01:17:01] Speaker 1: Right. So when you walked out of the room, sorry, when you walked in the house, didn't see the dog?
[01:17:06] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:17:07] Speaker 1: When you walked up the stairs, no dog? No. Walked down the hallway, no dog?
[01:17:12] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:17:13] Speaker 1: Walked into Brian and Nicole's bedroom door, no dog?
[01:17:18] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember seeing the dog. I realize that.
[01:17:20] Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Dog or no dog? No dog.
[01:17:23] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember seeing the dog. It doesn't mean it wasn't there or it was there. I just don't remember seeing it.
[01:17:28] Speaker 1: No dog came up to you and barked at you, correct?
[01:17:31] Speaker ?: No. No.
[01:17:33] Speaker 1: You didn't see or hear a dog whining or howling, did you? No. You didn't hear or see a dog scratching at the door?
[01:17:40] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:17:41] Speaker 1: There's no sign of a dog at all in Brian and Nicole Albert's house at 6:41 a.m. when you walked into that house, correct, or 6:40?
[01:17:48] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember seeing the dog.
[01:17:50] Speaker 1: And this was a 70-pound German Shepherd, correct?
[01:17:53] Carrie Roberts: I don't know the weight of the dog.
[01:17:55] Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a description given about that dog by Brian Albert? Anybody else? That dog was not good with strangers? Object. Did you know that you said you're very, very dear friends and obviously dear friends with Brian Albert, relations with Nicole Albert, your sister. Are you aware that that dog was not good with strangers? Object. Do you know that?
[01:18:24] Carrie Roberts: I don't. It wasn't good with other dogs is what I knew, so I could never bring my dog over there. That's all I know about the dog.
[01:18:30] Speaker 1: Right. Had some aggression, correct? At least with other dogs? Possibly.
[01:18:34] Carrie Roberts: Possibly with other dogs. Yeah.
[01:18:36] Speaker 3: Thank you, Your Honor.
[01:18:38] Speaker 1: If you could remind the jurors, in your memory, who was the last person to leave the House 34 Fairview on the early morning hours of January 29th?
[01:18:53] Carrie Roberts: I believe Caitlin left after us, my niece.
[01:18:58] Speaker 1: Thank you. At some point, we've already talked a little bit about this. You said you looked out the front door glass. Was it a window or the whole door glass?
[01:19:13] Carrie Roberts: The whole door was glass, I believe.
[01:19:15] Speaker 1: Is it like a, and pardon my ignorance, is there like a wooden door that is open and there's a storm door that's all glass that was closed? Is that what we're dealing with?
[01:19:24] Carrie Roberts: I believe so. Yes.
[01:19:26] Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds about right. Can we take one more glance? I'm going to back up for a quick second. Can we take one more glance at that exhibit?
[01:19:36] Speaker 4: we did it. We did it. We did it.
[01:19:39] Speaker ?: We did the course information. Okay.
[01:19:41] Speaker 4: Thank you so much. May I approach? Yes. I'm about to ask you and I apologize.
[01:19:45] Speaker 1: Thank you. One more point of reference. Can you please show the jurors where Brian and Nicole Albert's bedroom window is in that photograph?
[01:19:54] Carrie Roberts: Sure. It's right there.
[01:19:56] Speaker 1: Upper left window, uppermost left window, correct? Yes. Thank you. May I approach? Yes. Let me get back on track. You indicated that you looked out that storm door and saw Ms. Reed's vehicle, her SUV, directly in front of you, correct? Yes. That was the first time you noted or clocked that SUV being there?
[01:20:20] Carrie Roberts: First time, sorry.
[01:20:21] Speaker 1: The first time you noted the SUV, in other words, that you visually saw it, it was directly in front of you. It was not back by the mailbox, correct?
[01:20:28] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[01:20:29] Speaker 1: Did you still see the Jeep parked back by the mailbox?
[01:20:32] Carrie Roberts: I looked out the window. I saw the car. I really didn't pay attention to details of other cars. I just looked and saw her car.
[01:20:40] Speaker 1: When you first looked out that window and saw, or looked out the door and saw the SUV, what time was that?
[01:20:47] Carrie Roberts: I don't remember off the top of my head. I'm sorry.
[01:20:50] Speaker 1: Does the time 2:23 AM sound familiar?
[01:20:53] Carrie Roberts: 2:23? I'm sorry.
[01:20:55] Speaker 1: 12:23. I'm sorry.
[01:20:57] Carrie Roberts: Again, I'm not sure.
[01:21:01] Speaker 1: When you looked out the door, did you see any other vehicles at that time? Other than the Jeep, other than Ms. Reid's SUV?
[01:21:16] Carrie Roberts: I believe I saw lights, oh sorry, lights like over here, somewhere if the Jeep's there and the car, sorry, is there. Okay.
[01:21:25] Speaker 1: May I, can you describe for the record what you did that the there's don't come across on the record? Oh, sorry.
[01:21:31] Carrie Roberts: Yes, straight out would be Ms. Reid's vehicle that I looked at. Okay. Um, I don't, I kind of looked at that. I remember my peripheral vision seeing lights over there to the left. Sorry.
[01:21:46] Speaker 1: All right. So the way that you're describing this, and that's lights to a vehicle, right? Yes. As a matter of fact, you know what vehicle that is? I do, yes. What vehicle is it? Describe it to the jurors, please.
[01:21:55] Carrie Roberts: It's Ryan Nagel's. Ryan Nagel's what?
[01:21:57] Speaker 1: Car or truck? I believe he has a truck.
[01:21:59] Carrie Roberts: I believe he has a truck.
[01:22:01] Speaker 1: Okay. Um, so what you're describing is you looked out the window, you saw Ms. Reid's SUV directly in front of you. Right behind that, in line, was Brian Higgins' Jeep, and behind that was Ryan Nagel's truck. Is that right?
[01:22:17] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure where his truck lines up. I just remember seeing lights. I just quickly went, saw Ms. Reid's car, and went back into the room. I wasn't, I apologize, paying attention for like specific details about cars.
[01:22:31] Speaker 1: At some point, you did become interested in exactly what time Ryan Nagel's truck arrived, correct? This is after the fact. Well after the fact. Months after the fact.
[01:22:43] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[01:22:44] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you took it upon yourself to ask Julie Nagel, Ryan's sister, to send you something, correct?
[01:22:52] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[01:22:53] Speaker 1: What did you ask her to send you?
[01:22:55] Carrie Roberts: I ran into the two of them.
[01:22:56] Speaker 1: I didn't ask you who you ran into, just what did you ask her to send you?
[01:22:59] Carrie Roberts: Oh, okay. I'm sorry. A text message.
[01:23:02] Speaker 1: A screenshot of a text message?
[01:23:03] Carrie Roberts: Yes, a screenshot of a text message between Julie and Ryan Nagel.
[01:23:07] Speaker 1: You knew at the time that Ms. Nagel, very obviously, was a recipient witness in this case, correct?
[01:23:16] Carrie Roberts: I believe so, it was very early on.
[01:23:18] Speaker 1: Oh, and she was in the house. She was in the house.
[01:23:20] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:23:21] Speaker 1: She was in the house when Ms. Reed's vehicle appeared, correct? Correct. She was in the house when you were looking at the vehicle. Correct. She was in the house when everybody came home from the 34th interview from the Waterfall
[01:23:34] Speaker 4: Barrier Grill, correct? Correct. Yes.
[01:23:37] Speaker ?: She went outside at some point to talk to your mother outside the house, right behind the
[01:23:37] Speaker 4: SUV that you're describing as Ms. Reed's SUV, correct? Yes.
[01:23:39] Speaker 5: So you knew that she was, and you knew all this when you asked her for that screenshot.
[01:23:53] Carrie Roberts: I was trying to piece together. You knew all this when you asked for the screenshot.
[01:23:58] Speaker 1: Yes. You knew what her position was in this case, correct?
[01:24:01] Carrie Roberts: She had no involvement. What happened outside was different. I didn't ask you if she had involvement.
[01:24:05] Speaker 3: Let her finish your answer. Go ahead.
[01:24:08] Carrie Roberts: I didn't, what happened outside was separate from anything that happened inside.
[01:24:15] Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you again. You knew all of that information that she was, Julie Nagle was a recipient witness in this case, as was everyone else inside 34 Fairview when you asked for that screenshot, correct? Yes. That is another example of you coordinating information with other witnesses in this case, correct?
[01:24:35] Carrie Roberts: No, that is not correct.
[01:24:36] Speaker 1: You were advised, were you ever advised by Michael Proctor not to coordinate information with other witnesses in the case? Did he ever say don't do that? I don't recall.
[01:24:46] Carrie Roberts: I don't recall.
[01:24:47] Speaker 1: So you don't recall or he didn't?
[01:24:49] Carrie Roberts: I don't recall if he did or not.
[01:24:51] Speaker 1: Okay. If he did tell you not to coordinate with other witnesses, this would be a breach of that agreement. Objection. Sustained. Indeed, once you got that screenshot, we'll talk about that in just a second. When you got the screenshot, did you ever share that with law enforcement?
[01:25:13] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if I did or not.
[01:25:15] Speaker 1: You never provided that to Michael Proctor or any other investigator, did you?
[01:25:20] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if I did or not. I'm not sure if I did or not.
[01:25:22] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Ms. McCabe, the only reason we know about that screenshot is because of the extraction of your phone. Isn't that right?
[01:25:27] Carrie Roberts: If that's how you know about it, I'm not sure.
[01:25:31] Speaker 1: You asked for that screenshot for your own personal use, for your own personal information, for your own personal coordination, correct, of what happened that night?
[01:25:44] Carrie Roberts: That's… What are you asking? There's three questions there.
[01:25:47] Speaker 1: Did you ask for that screenshot for your own personal use?
[01:25:52] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:25:53] Speaker 1: And indeed, you do know what time it was that you looked out and saw Ryan Nagel's truck, because the screenshot told you that, correct?
[01:26:05] Carrie Roberts: The screenshot told me when Ryan Nagel pulled up. It didn't tell when I saw.
[01:26:12] Speaker 1: And what was the time when Ryan Nagel indicated that he pulled up?
[01:26:18] Carrie Roberts: I'd have to look at the screenshot. 2:23 AM?
[01:26:20] Speaker 1: I told you from 3:00 AM somewhere? If you have it and that's what it says, absolutely. Mary Ann. Okay.
[01:26:24] Carrie Roberts: Take a look at that. Transcript that column. Can you read that to yourself?
[01:26:27] Speaker 4: I'll put it to yourself to be heard. Why don't you come to county?
[01:26:29] Speaker ?: Why don't you come to county?
[01:26:30] Speaker 4: Why don't you come to county? Yes. May I approach? Yes. Thank you.
[01:26:35] Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do this. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do this.
[01:26:39] Speaker ?: I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do this. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do this. Okay. May I approach?
[01:26:43] Speaker 4: Yes.
[01:26:44] Speaker 1: Thank you. May I approach? Yes. Thank you. Pull it up on my right, folks. Can you tell me if that refers to your recollection about anything we've been discussing?
[01:26:55] Carrie Roberts: Could I, is the page available before this?
[01:27:02] Speaker 1: I'm sorry, just a yes or no. Does that refresh your recollection about anything that we've been discussing?
[01:27:08] Speaker ?: It's just what we've discussed.
[01:27:13] Carrie Roberts: It doesn't really refresh. Okay. So it does not refresh her memory.
[01:27:18] Speaker 3: Next question.
[01:27:19] Speaker 1: I don't think that's what she said. Is that, that's what you said?
[01:27:22] Speaker 3: Yes.
[01:27:23] Speaker 1: That's what I said. That was her answer. That does not refresh her recollection?
[01:27:27] Speaker 3: That was her answer. Next question, Mr. Jackson.
[01:27:33] Speaker 4: May I approach? Yes.
[01:27:35] Carrie Roberts: Thank you.
[01:27:36] Speaker 1: Take a look at the bottom of that page, and so that refreshes your recollection about anything we were just discussing. May I?
[01:27:44] Speaker ?: Yes. Thank you. Ms. McCabe, have you seen it easy?
[01:27:47] Speaker 1: Does this refresh your recollection about what we were just discussing concerning that conversation? Regarding me asking Julie Nagle for the time? Correct.
[01:27:50] Speaker ?: Yes, it does. Okay.
[01:27:52] Speaker 1: And what time did that, that was attended to a screenshot that you asked for, correct? Yes. And that time was what? Do you remember the time?
[01:28:09] Speaker ?: Can I look at the paper?
[01:28:09] Speaker 1: I was reading everything. I didn't look at the exact time. So the question is whether you remember the time.
[01:28:12] Carrie Roberts: Oh, do I remember it? I don't remember the exact time, but I can read it off the paper. That's different than a memory. That's different. Next question. So this does not refresh your recollection at the time that was reflected on that screenshot.
[01:28:18] Speaker ?: I can read the time, but in my memory.
[01:28:18] Carrie Roberts: Okay. Sorry. Does it refresh your recollection as you sit here, having read this, as the time that was
[01:28:29] Speaker 1: reflected on that screenshot?
[01:28:30] Carrie Roberts: I can read the time, but in my memory.
[01:28:35] Speaker 1: Okay. Sorry. Does it refresh your recollection as you sit here, having read this, as the time that was reflected on that screenshot?
[01:28:45] Carrie Roberts: I don't. Sitting here today, the only reason I know there's a time is because of what's on that paper.
[01:28:52] Speaker 1: But you did ask for a screenshot from Ms. Nagel, correct?
[01:28:55] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[01:28:56] Speaker 1: And that screenshot said something to the effect of outside. Is that right?
[01:28:59] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:29:00] Speaker 1: What's that?
[01:29:01] Speaker 3: Just that question. The screenshot said something about outside? Is that right?
[01:29:05] Carrie Roberts: I believe it said here, yes. Maybe it's here. Yeah. Something.
[01:29:10] Speaker 1: The screenshot from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel indicating that he had arrived.
[01:29:14] Speaker ?: Yes. Can you repeat the question? Sure.
[01:29:17] Speaker 1: It was a screenshot of a text message from Ryan Nagel to Julie Nagel saying, I've arrived. Yes. In other words, I've arrived at 34 Fairview. Yes, it was. Because he was intending to give her a ride home, which she had asked for. Is that right? Objection. You did see Julie Nagel go outside and approach the vehicle, correct?
[01:29:28] Speaker ?: I never saw her go near the vehicle.
[01:29:28] Speaker 1: I saw her go outside. Got it. Did she ultimately come back indoors? Yes. Did she come back in with anybody else? No.
[01:29:34] Speaker ?: About what time would you estimate that to have been in the course of that evening? When she came back inside?
[01:29:36] Speaker 1: When she came back inside. When she walked out and came back inside. Soon after she went out. She talked to her brother. She came back inside.
[01:29:41] Carrie Roberts: About what time would you estimate that to have been in the course of that evening?
[01:29:45] Speaker 1: When she came back inside.
[01:29:46] Speaker ?: When she came back inside. When she came back inside.
[01:29:47] Speaker 1: When she walked out and then came back inside. Soon after she went out. She talked to her brother. She came back inside. About what time of day was that?
[01:29:52] Carrie Roberts: If you know.
[01:29:53] Speaker 1: I mean, this was all happening while we were at my sister's house. Right. But, you know. I mean, this was all happening while we were at my sister's house. Right. But, you know.
[01:29:59] Carrie Roberts: I mean, this was all happening while we were at my sister's house. Right.
[01:30:01] Speaker 1: But, you know. I mean, this was all happening.
[01:30:03] Carrie Roberts: I mean, this was all happening. I mean, this was all happening. I mean, this was all happening. I mean, this was all happening.
[01:30:07] Speaker 1: About what time of day was that? If you know.
[01:30:10] Carrie Roberts: I mean, this was all happening while we were at my sister's house.
[01:30:14] Speaker 1: Right. Was it 12:15? 12:30? 12:45? 1:00?
[01:30:19] Carrie Roberts: Well, according to the paper, I would have had to be. That's not what I'm asking. Not according to the paper.
[01:30:24] Speaker 1: Do you have an independent recollection of about. If not down to the minute. About what time that was.
[01:30:29] Carrie Roberts: I could say. I'd have to be. I wasn't looking at my watch that night, so it's very hard for me to give a time. Just off of my memory. I know what I've seen, but.
[01:30:45] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:30:46] Speaker 1: It's hard. You did see both Ryan Nagel's truck and Miss Reed's SUV in front of the house at the same time, correct?
[01:30:58] Carrie Roberts: I saw his lights in my peripheral vision on the left.
[01:31:02] Speaker 1: But the lights are attached to what?
[01:31:04] Carrie Roberts: The car. But it wasn't out front. Miss Reed's vehicle was out front.
[01:31:07] Speaker 1: Right. When I say in front of 34 Fairview, we're going to talk about the spacing in just a second. I just meant out in front of the house.
[01:31:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes. Over to the side, correct. Okay.
[01:31:17] Speaker 1: And you're indicating that, and I want to be clear about this, as you're looking out that storm door window, going from right to left, it was Miss Reed's vehicle, correct? Yes. Then Higgins' Jeep. Is that right? His Jeep was in front of the mailbox. Then behind that, was there a space, and then Mr. Nagel's truck, or was the truck right behind the Jeep? That's what I can't tell you.
[01:31:44] Carrie Roberts: I just remember seeing lights. I didn't look over and pay much attention to it. I was just quickly looking at the Miss Reed's car, and then I went back and sat down.
[01:31:54] Speaker 1: Do you recall testifying at a prior hearing that your perception was Miss Reed's car, her SUV, the Jeep, a space, and then Mr. Nagel's truck from right to left?
[01:32:09] Carrie Roberts: I remember Mr. Nagel's truck over to the left in my peripheral vision. I can't give you the exact location.
[01:32:16] Speaker 1: But there's no question in your mind as you sit here that Brian Higgins' Jeep was between Brian Nagel's truck and Miss Reed's SUV. You remember that very clearly, correct?
[01:32:31] Carrie Roberts: I know that this Miss Reed's vehicle was here, and there were lights in my peripheral vision over here. Okay. I wasn't, you know, I just was looking quickly.
[01:32:40] Speaker 4: So let me ask you a question then.
[01:32:42] Carrie Roberts: Okay.
[01:32:43] Speaker 4: Assuming that the lights have taxed for something, my Nagel's truck, we've already established that. What you're looking at, when you look out the stormwater door, there's Miss Reed's truck from SUV. So just behind that, Mr. Nagel's truck, as you're looking at it, you see who is the Jeep, correct? Yes. And behind that, Mr. Nagel's truck. Do you remember the Jeep being between the truck and SUV, correct?
[01:33:09] Carrie Roberts: I remember looking out the window. It was dark. I remember seeing lights over to the left. That is what I remember.
[01:33:16] Speaker 5: Where was the Jeep as it relates to the lights?
[01:33:19] Carrie Roberts: I'm assuming the Jeep was still parked at the mailbox.
[01:33:23] Speaker 5: It was dark.
[01:33:26] Carrie Roberts: I wasn't studying outside. It was a quick thing I did. I looked, I saw it, I went back to the table. Okay.
[01:33:33] Speaker 4: And I'm asking for what the salt part was. Let's just slow down on the salt. Okay. You looked and you saw it. Ryan Nagel's truck. Then you saw James' Jeep. Then you saw Miss Reed's SUV, correct?
[01:33:44] Carrie Roberts: I saw Miss Reed's SUV parked straight out front. And in my peripheral vision, I saw lights that, yes, must have been attached to a truck. But I didn't, I didn't study the, the lineup of cars. I'm sorry. All right.
[01:34:00] Speaker 4: Can I have one more question?
[01:34:01] Carrie Roberts: One more question.
[01:34:02] Speaker 4: Where was the Jeep? Was it a part of the SUV? Behind the dirt? Where was the truck? Or was it the turning into it? It's something awesome.
[01:34:11] Carrie Roberts: You're asking what I saw when I looked outside. I didn't. And I'm telling you exactly what I saw. It was dark. It was Karen's car there. And in my peripheral vision, I saw lights. And then I went back to the table. Okay. That's the last question. We're gonna break the lunch.
[01:34:26] Speaker 3: All right. Sorry about the delay, Jared. We were told that we blew a fuse. And that's why we couldn't get started on time. So, these old courthouses. So, all right. We appreciate your patience. Go ahead, Mr. Jackson. Thank you, Your Honor.
[01:34:42] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, when you first saw Ms. Reed's SUV pull up, very shortly thereafter, you sent a text to John O'Keefe, correct?
[01:34:53] Carrie Roberts: I walked to the door, saw the car. And that's when I sent him the text, yes.
[01:34:57] Speaker 1: Right. So, you walked up to the door, saw the SUV outside, and then texted him something basically while you were standing at the door.
[01:35:04] Carrie Roberts: I believe so, yes.
[01:35:05] Speaker 1: What did you text him?
[01:35:06] Carrie Roberts: Here.
[01:35:07] Speaker 1: Okay. That was, do you remember the time?
[01:35:10] Carrie Roberts: I don't know.
[01:35:11] Speaker 1: Right now. Would it refresh your recollection if you were to look at a series of text messages contained in a Celebrate report? I think you've seen this before. Sure. May I approach, Your Honor? Yes.
[01:35:23] Speaker ?: Thank you.
[01:35:28] Speaker 4: May I ask one foundational question? Okay.
[01:35:30] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, I'm going to ask you about a series of text messages. It's not a memory contest in terms of the timing. I'm going to ask you about probably five or so. All of those purport to be contained in here. Do you remember the times of those five texts?
[01:35:47] Carrie Roberts: I don't off the top of my head.
[01:35:49] Speaker 1: Do you think it would refresh your recollection to look at all those in one fell swoop as you look at this document? Sure. So I don't have to go back and forth?
[01:35:57] Speaker 3: Are these in evidence?
[01:35:58] Speaker 1: Yes. This is not an evidence to my knowledge. Okay.
[01:36:01] Speaker ?: Not yet.
[01:36:02] Speaker 3: Do we help you to remember? Yeah. Okay. Why don't you bring it to yours? Thank you.
[01:36:08] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.
[01:36:11] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:36:12] Speaker 1: May I ask? Yes. Thank you.
[01:36:15] Carrie Roberts: I'm not going to have to remember the exact times of all five, am I?
[01:36:18] Speaker ?: I'll help. Okay.
[01:36:20] Speaker 4: Thank you.
[01:36:21] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, did you see a text on here that was consistent with your memory that you texted here? Yes. And was that at 12:14, I'm sorry, at 12:27 a.m.?
[01:36:46] Carrie Roberts: I don't know exactly. I'm assuming if it's on that paper.
[01:36:55] Speaker 1: Let me have this one here. Sure.
[01:37:00] Speaker 3: Ms. McCabe, we're going to make it a little easier for you, okay? Okay. Thank you.
[01:37:07] Speaker 4: Thank you.
[01:37:17] Speaker 1: May I? Yes. Your Honor, I would offer the following stipulation. At 12:14:27 on January 29, 2022, text message from Jen McCabe to – I'm sorry, text message from John O'Keefe's phone to Jen McCabe's phone, where to? At 12:27, all these are on January 29, 2022. At 12:27:33, from Jennifer McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone, here, exclamation point, question mark. Same date, 12:31 and 47 seconds from Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone, pull behind me. Same date, 12:40 and 31 seconds from Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone, hello. 12:42 and 9 seconds, text message from Jennifer McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone, where are the letter U? Okay, thank you. Finally, 12:45 and 53 seconds from Jen McCabe's phone to John O'Keefe's phone, hello. I would offer the stipulation that those are correct times and dates and contents and text messages between John O'Keefe's phone and Jim McCabe's phone on January 29, 2022.
[01:38:49] Speaker 3: All right, and that's what you're agreeing to, Mr. Brennan?
[01:38:53] Speaker 1: Yes, Your Honor, it's contained in the Celebrite Report. Okay.
[01:38:56] Speaker 3: All right, folks. All right, so I told you yesterday about a stipulation when I talked about something in the front line. This is similar. So what you just heard, both lawyers agree that that's information contained in a Celebrite Report.
[01:39:09] Speaker ?: Thank you, Your Honor.
[01:39:10] Speaker 1: May I continue? Yes. At some point, you indicated that, and by the way, Ms. McCabe, at 12:27, it's now been stipulated to, you texted a single word here, exclamation point, question mark, correct? Yes. You indicate that you saw the SUV move up after it was in front of the 34 Fairview residence. It moved up some number of feet, correct? Yes.
[01:39:43] Carrie Roberts: The next time I looked, it was at a different location. Right.
[01:39:47] Speaker 1: Now, you did not see the white Jeep move from the place that you originally saw it in front of the mailbox, correct?
[01:39:56] Carrie Roberts: I never looked out at the white Jeep.
[01:39:58] Speaker 1: But you never saw that move, ever?
[01:40:01] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:40:02] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, Mr. Higgins, that Jeep was in the same spot while Mr. Higgins was inside the residence until he left, correct?
[01:40:08] Carrie Roberts: That's what I would assume, yes.
[01:40:10] Speaker 1: Okay. And you never saw him go out and move his car and come back in or anything like that?
[01:40:14] Carrie Roberts: I never did, no.
[01:40:16] Speaker 1: After you, it's fair to say that once you noted that the SUV, Ms. Reed's SUV, was in front of the location, you started paying some attention to it.
[01:40:27] Carrie Roberts: I went to the door a few times to look out, yes.
[01:40:30] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, in the course of about 19 minutes, you went to the door no fewer than five times, correct?
[01:40:36] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if it was five. I'm not sure if it was five.
[01:40:39] Speaker 1: You've indicated previously that for every time you went to the door and saw the SUV, you texted something, which are the texts contained in the document that was just stipulated. Is that right?
[01:40:52] Carrie Roberts: I did text five times, you are correct.
[01:40:55] Speaker 1: Okay. So, it's fair to say if you texted five times, then you went to the door five times if those were associated with one another. You walked up, looked at the door, see the SUV and texted something.
[01:41:11] Speaker 4: Here, pull behind me. Where are you? Those texts, correct?
[01:41:16] Carrie Roberts: I remember going to the front door, seeing the car and texting here. When I went to the door the second time, the car had moved up towards the flagpole and I texted pull behind me because I thought, did they not know where to park? Did they think they were at the wrong house?
[01:41:35] Speaker 1: So, my question is this. Every time you went to the door, you texted something?
[01:41:40] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure that I did, yes. I'm not sure that I did. Sorry.
[01:41:45] Speaker 1: Do you remember a year ago testifying that every single time you texted, you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something?
[01:41:58] Carrie Roberts: Am I aware that I said that?
[01:41:59] Speaker 1: Correct.
[01:42:00] Carrie Roberts: Could you show that to me, please? Sure. Thank you.
[01:42:05] Speaker 1: May I add your honor? Yes. Take a look at the highlighted portion. Sure. And just read that to yourself and know when you're finished. Ms. McCabe, does that refresh your recollection about the issue we were just talking about?
[01:42:17] Carrie Roberts: I see what's written down, yes. Okay.
[01:42:20] Speaker 1: Did you testify in answer to the following question? And as a matter of fact, you looked every single time that you texted, you indicated that you looked out at the SUV and saw something that prompted you to text something, correct? Answer, correct? Answer, correct?
[01:42:35] Carrie Roberts: I answered correct to that, yes.
[01:42:36] Speaker 1: Okay. So, if you looked out, I'm sorry, if you texted five times, that's all I'm getting to, you went to the door about five times? I'm not sure.
[01:42:44] Carrie Roberts: I remember definitely going twice. And again, if I misstated or I said I went five times, four times, I apologize.
[01:42:55] Speaker 1: Well, do you think this testimony is an error? No, I don't.
[01:43:00] Carrie Roberts: I'm thinking with my memory, it was three years ago and I'm thinking that maybe I wasn't clear on that detail of how many times that I went to the door. And certainly -- What I can tell you I'm clear on is that I did go twice and I saw it. I saw it straight ahead. I saw it at the flagpole and a third time further on. I cannot say with certainty with my memory today that I was up at that door every single time. I'm sorry.
[01:43:29] Speaker 1: And then -- and by the way, when you testified as you just saw, that was a year ago, correct? Yes. A year earlier and a year closer to the event, correct?
[01:43:39] Carrie Roberts: Yes, it was.
[01:43:40] Speaker 1: Your memory would have been a little bit fresher then than it is now, a year later.
[01:43:43] Carrie Roberts: I don't think I can compare my memory then to now. You can't compare your memory?
[01:43:47] Speaker 1: Do you think your memory gets better with time or fades a little with time?
[01:43:51] Carrie Roberts: Well, some things, unfortunately, I think about every single day with this case, the trauma of it. Sure. And what I experienced and went through. And there are some things that I am certain I will never forget. And I know for sure where the car was. And I know for sure I sent those two texts. But I apologize if I misstated I went out more than I did. I'm just trying to give you what I remember today.
[01:44:18] Speaker 1: Let's talk about those texts and you looking out the door. You did approach the door and you saw that the vehicle was there the initial time, correct? That's one.
[01:44:28] Carrie Roberts: When I texted here, yes.
[01:44:29] Speaker 1: And you texted here, exclamation point, question mark. Is that right? Correct. And you indicated that when you first saw the vehicle, it was straight out ahead of you in front of the front door and it was stationary. Is that right?
[01:44:41] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:44:42] Speaker 1: Then you said you went back to the door and you saw that it had moved up, quote, a little bit. Isn't that right? Yes. Toward the flagpole.
[01:44:50] Carrie Roberts: Is that right? Is that the flagpole?
[01:44:52] Speaker 1: And when you saw that it had moved up toward the flagpole, then you texted again at 12:40, which has been stipulated to hello. Is that right?
[01:45:02] Speaker ?: When I saw it move up to the flagpole?
[01:45:03] Carrie Roberts: When I saw it move up to the flagpole, I believe I texted pull behind me.
[01:45:11] Speaker 1: The second time. And by the way, it was my mistake. I jumped over one. It was 12:31, 47, which we stipulated to pull behind me. That's when the SUV was up closer to the flagpole, correct? I believe so, yes. Then you went yet again at 12:40 and saw the SUV yet again and texted hello. It was the second hello.
[01:45:39] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure if that was when I texted hello.
[01:45:43] Speaker 1: But you did see that the SUV had moved again.
[01:45:46] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:45:47] Speaker 1: Now, where was it?
[01:45:49] Carrie Roberts: At first, it was straight ahead. Then it was at the flagpole. And then it was further out.
[01:45:55] Speaker 1: Then at 12:42, two minutes later, you texted where are you, correct?
[01:45:59] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:46:00] Speaker 1: Okay. At that point, it was still up by the flagpole?
[01:46:04] Carrie Roberts: No, I'm not saying that it was still outside.
[01:46:06] Speaker 1: Where was it?
[01:46:07] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure where the vehicle was.
[01:46:09] Speaker 1: At 12:45, you texted yet again, hello. Is that right?
[01:46:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I did.
[01:46:15] Speaker 1: You indicated that you texted hello the last time you saw the vehicle. Is that right?
[01:46:21] Carrie Roberts: I'm not saying that today, no.
[01:46:23] Speaker 1: Well, did you say it previously?
[01:46:26] Carrie Roberts: In my testimony, did I say that the last time I texted? Do you have that written that I could see? You just read it. Well, that was your question that you had read to me. I never came out and said that.
[01:46:36] Speaker 1: Okay. I asked you if you testified to that a year ago. That's my question. Did you testify to that a year ago that when you went every single time you went to the door, you texted something because seeing the vehicle prompted you to text something to John?
[01:46:48] Carrie Roberts: That's a summary of maybe the-
[01:46:51] Speaker 5: Did you testify to that a year ago?
[01:46:53] Carrie Roberts: That's what? That when I went to the door? Yeah, different times when I went to the door, I did text, yes.
[01:47:00] Speaker 1: And then you testified as well that you went to the door a final time and saw that the SUV was gone and then left, correct? Yes, at one point I did. And that was just a couple of minutes after your last text at 12:45, is that right?
[01:47:18] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure of the time.
[01:47:20] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you testified previously that it was around 12:50 that you first- I'm sorry, that you last went to the door and noted that the car was completely gone. Is that right?
[01:47:31] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure of that.
[01:47:33] Speaker ?: I-
[01:47:34] Speaker 1: You're not sure of that?
[01:47:36] Carrie Roberts: No. If you could show me, I'd appreciate it.
[01:47:38] Speaker 1: At some point, did you note that the vehicle was gone? Let's get to that. Yes. Around what time was that?
[01:47:45] Carrie Roberts: I do not know.
[01:47:46] Speaker 1: 12:45, a little before, a little after? I'm not sure.
[01:47:50] Carrie Roberts: I can't give it time.
[01:47:51] Speaker 1: Would it refresh your recollection to look at how you testified to that particular time last year? Sure.
[01:47:58] Speaker 3: May I? Yes.
[01:48:03] Speaker 1: Matt? Yes. Mr. Kate, does that refresh your recollection as to what time last year you indicated that you went to the door and saw that the SUV was gone?
[01:48:14] Carrie Roberts: It says on the paper that I was asked if after 12:45 it was gone and I answered correct.
[01:48:21] Speaker 1: Okay.
[01:48:22] Carrie Roberts: I never gave it time.
[01:48:23] Speaker 1: All right. And that coincides with the last hello that you texted to John's phone, correct?
[01:48:28] Carrie Roberts: Again, I don't have that paper in front of me. Is that the time? Well, that's stipulating.
[01:48:33] Speaker 1: You don't need to worry about that. Okay. That's been stipulated to your last hello text was at 12:45. Okay. Yes. Okay. So that coincides, that testimony from last year coincides with your last text message saying hello. You noted that the SUV at that point had gone and left, correct? Correct. So if I hear your testimony correctly, you saw the SUV in position one. Yes. There was a text or something or two maybe. Then you saw it in position two. You went back to the door and noted that SUV had moved and it was now closer to the flagpole, correct?
[01:49:09] Carrie Roberts: Well, you've just asked two questions.
[01:49:12] Speaker 1: It had moved closer to the flagpole.
[01:49:14] Carrie Roberts: The first question is you said I saw it and I sent a text or two. I know I just said one here. Okay.
[01:49:20] Speaker 1: Then you saw it a second time.
[01:49:22] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[01:49:23] Speaker 1: And now it's closer to the flagpole. Yes.
[01:49:25] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[01:49:26] Speaker 1: And there's texting going on. I'm not getting down to the minute of the text, but there's texting going on.
[01:49:30] Speaker 4: You're sending texts.
[01:49:31] Carrie Roberts: I'm sending.
[01:49:32] Speaker 4: Yes. Okay. Then you went back to the door a third time and saw that it moved beyond the flagpole,
[01:49:39] Speaker ?: correct?
[01:49:40] Speaker 4: Correct.
[01:49:41] Speaker 5: Then, according to your testimony last year, you went back to the door at least a fourth time to see that it was gone.
[01:49:46] Speaker 1: Correct?
[01:49:47] Carrie Roberts: I believe so.
[01:49:48] Speaker 1: Yes. Okay. Based on your testimony today, you were at the door looking out the window at that portion of either the yard directly in front of you, in front of the house, or toward the flagpole, or beyond the flagpole, four times. Correct?
[01:50:04] Carrie Roberts: From last year's testimony, but what I remember today with certainty is twice. You need to let her answer the question. Answer your question, please. Go ahead. Okay. What I remember certainty is looking at it out front, at the flagpole, and beyond. I don't remember how many times I went up to the door. I was back and forth.
[01:50:30] Speaker 1: Right. But according to you, you saw the car in three different positions, correct? Correct. So that's at least three times to the door, correct?
[01:50:39] Speaker 5: Correct. And you saw the car gone, right?
[01:50:42] Speaker 4: Correct. Three plus one is four, correct? Correct. So now you're telling us that you went to the door a minimum of four times and looked across that yard at the SUV, correct? Correct.
[01:50:54] Speaker 1: You had a clear view of that SUV as you looked out the storm door every time you went to the door, didn't you?
[01:51:05] Carrie Roberts: It was dark and snowing, but I could see a vehicle out there, yes.
[01:51:09] Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you've indicated that it was a clear view. There was nothing obstructing your vision, correct?
[01:51:14] Carrie Roberts: No, there was nothing but the weather conditions.
[01:51:17] Speaker 1: And you indicated that, and by the way, the blizzard had basically just started. There was a dusting on the ground.
[01:51:23] Carrie Roberts: It was snowing, it was accumulating. Right.
[01:51:26] Speaker 1: But it was early.
[01:51:27] Carrie Roberts: Right.
[01:51:28] Speaker 1: Early in the storm.
[01:51:29] Carrie Roberts: Oh, yes, absolutely.
[01:51:30] Speaker 1: Right. And when asked about whether or not you had a view, well, let me ask it a different way. In terms of your view of the SUV and the distance from the storm door to the SUV, to that curb line, there was nothing obstructing your view. You had a clear view of that, a good view of the SUV, correct?
[01:51:48] Carrie Roberts: When I looked out the window, I could see the SUV in front of me, yes.
[01:51:52] Speaker 1: At no time during any of this interaction with the door, meaning going back and forth through the storm door, texting, looking outside, seeing the SUV in position one, seeing the SUV in position two, seeing the SUV in position three, at no time, did you hear any noise that was unusual? Did you? No, I didn't. No. You didn't hear any screaming? No. You didn't hear any yelling?
[01:52:17] Speaker 5: No.
[01:52:18] Speaker 1: No loud voices? No. No foul language? No. You didn't hear a door slam? No. You didn't hear a verbal argument or a fight of any kind? No. You didn't hear a revving engine? No. You didn't hear the squealing of tires or the scraping of tires on pavement? No. You didn't hear a collision take place? No. Or a crash? No. Or screams for help? No. Moaning, groaning, as in someone was in distress? No. So, as you looked at the SUV the first time, you've already indicated that you had a clear view straight out the door, right? It's right in front of the front door as a crow flies, right? It's not at an angle.
[01:53:00] Carrie Roberts: Right there.
[01:53:01] Speaker 1: Perfect.
[01:53:02] Speaker ?: Okay.
[01:53:03] Speaker 1: You also previously indicated that you saw tire tracks in the roadway. Yes. In that very, very light dusting of snow, the accumulation that you talked about, you saw tire tracks of some sort.
[01:53:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:53:15] Speaker 1: So that's down on the ground, beyond the yard, somewhere in the roadway? In the street, correct. You had a good view of those tire tracks as well, correct? Yes. As a matter of fact, you were able to describe those as sort of almost a wave, I think you once said? Yeah, across the street. I could see it because of the street light that was across the street. Okay. And that presented at least enough illumination based on your view, you could see the tire tracks in the snow.
[01:53:42] Carrie Roberts: Yes. Over to the left, yes.
[01:53:44] Speaker 1: And you detailed not just the shape of those tire tracks as being sort of like a wave, but where those tire tracks were. Correct?
[01:53:54] Speaker ?: Yes.
[01:53:55] Carrie Roberts: Yeah. Where did you see them?
[01:53:57] Speaker 1: I believe over to the left, if I'm looking outside at the SUV, I'm just going to turn my back to the jurors for a second for perspective. If you're looking outside the door, when you say straight out, the SUV is straight outside, when you say to the left, you need to the left of the SUV on the ground, that's where you saw the tire tracks? Yes. Like somebody like parallel park or something?
[01:54:21] Speaker ?: Kind of a wave.
[01:54:22] Carrie Roberts: Yeah. I can't really explain what it was. I just saw it. You weren't paying special attention.
[01:54:28] Speaker 1: You weren't looking for tire tracks, were you? No.
[01:54:31] Carrie Roberts: When I glanced out, I saw it. When I glanced out, I saw it.
[01:54:33] Speaker 1: You weren't looking for anything in the roadway at that point. You just glanced out. There was something in your peripheral vision and you made note of it.
[01:54:40] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:54:47] Speaker 1: And the only thing between you and the SUV as you looked out was the lawn. Correct. There's no ditches or hills in that lawn. It's a flat lawn, correct?
[01:54:58] Carrie Roberts: I wasn't looking at the ground. I was just kind of looking like I am at you right now, straight.
[01:55:02] Speaker 1: That's not my question. You know that lawn. You've been in that house a hundred times, 500 times. There's no ditches or berms or hills or mountains on that lawn. It's just a flat lawn, right?
[01:55:12] Carrie Roberts: I guess you could categorize it as flat, yeah.
[01:55:16] Speaker 1: Okay. Can we take a look? Can you take a look at that? Sure. For a quick second. Tell me if you recognize it. I do, yes. What do you recognize that as being?
[01:55:32] Carrie Roberts: 34 Fairview.
[01:55:33] Speaker 1: That's the same photograph with just a little model that she saw a few minutes ago. Yes.
[01:55:39] Speaker 4: Your Honor, I would ask that you mock this identification. Okay. What is for published?
[01:55:48] Speaker 3: Not for identification, no.
[01:55:50] Speaker 4: Your Honor, if it's marked for identification, I wouldn't object to showing it.
[01:55:56] Speaker 1: Okay. What's depicted in that photograph?
[01:56:00] Carrie Roberts: 34 Fairview.
[01:56:01] Speaker 1: Do you see the front door that you went in?
[01:56:04] Carrie Roberts: I do, yes.
[01:56:05] Speaker 1: Can you point it out for the jurisdiction?
[01:56:06] Carrie Roberts: Sure. Right there. Okay.
[01:56:09] Speaker 1: The one with the brick steps leading up to it? Yes. Now, with this perspective, can you point out the side door?
[01:56:16] Carrie Roberts: Sure.
[01:56:17] Speaker 1: That looks like a screen door just to the right of the hedges? Yes. With that perspective, can you point out the garage door?
[01:56:29] Carrie Roberts: Or that one? Sorry.
[01:56:31] Speaker 1: Like just to the right of the window inside that recess of the home?
[01:56:35] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:56:36] Speaker 1: Okay. And does that fairly and accurately depict the lawn as it was on January 28th, 29th? Other than the fact that it's different weather? Right. The shape of the lawn? Yes. Okay. The first time you looked out over that lawn to the SUV, you did not see John O'Keefe, did you?
[01:56:59] Carrie Roberts: No, I did not.
[01:57:00] Speaker 1: He was not outside that SUV?
[01:57:02] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:57:03] Speaker 1: He was not standing or sitting?
[01:57:05] Carrie Roberts: Not that I saw.
[01:57:06] Speaker 1: He certainly wasn't on the ground, was he?
[01:57:08] Carrie Roberts: Not that I saw.
[01:57:09] Speaker 1: The second time you looked out and saw the SUV. Now the SUV is more toward the flagpole, correct? Yes. And you had a clear field of view between you standing at that door and the SUV. You already described that view, correct?
[01:57:25] Carrie Roberts: I can see the SUV, correct?
[01:57:27] Speaker 1: Correct. And you could see everything in front of the SUV as well, couldn't you?
[01:57:31] Carrie Roberts: I just would go to the door and look at the SUV. I wasn't taking in all the surroundings. Right.
[01:57:38] Speaker 4: But just like you weren't taking any surroundings specifically looking for tire tracks, you saw the SUV standing apart, sitting right in front of you, you saw that through your peripheral vision, you know the tire.
[01:57:48] Carrie Roberts: Yes. And that's lighted where a ROM SUV was very dark.
[01:57:52] Speaker 4: I don't know if you are lying yet. We'll get to that.
[01:57:54] Speaker 5: I'm sorry. You had any tire tracks, even though you weren't looking for tire tracks, right? Yes, I did. You stood out to you when you were peripheral vision. There they are.
[01:58:02] Carrie Roberts: Yes, absolutely. Mm-hmm.
[01:58:04] Speaker 1: That second time you looked directly at the SUV with no obstruction between you and the SUV, you did not see John O'Keefe standing outside the SUV? No. He wasn't sitting down? No. He wasn't lying down? No.
[01:58:22] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:58:23] Speaker 1: He certainly did not see his body in the snow toward that flagpole?
[01:58:26] Carrie Roberts: No.
[01:58:27] Speaker 1: And you would have been looking directly toward that flagpole, correct? Directly.
[01:58:32] Carrie Roberts: I was looking at the vehicle.
[01:58:34] Speaker 1: Directly toward the flagpole, Ms. McCabe.
[01:58:37] Carrie Roberts: I was looking in the direction of the flagpole. Right. At the vehicle. Yes.
[01:58:44] Speaker 1: Right. And you saw no body in the snow, did you?
[01:58:47] Carrie Roberts: I didn't look for a body in the snow.
[01:58:49] Speaker 1: I didn't ask you if you looked for one. You weren't looking for tire tracks either, were you? But you saw those.
[01:58:54] Carrie Roberts: I did see those, yes.
[01:58:55] Speaker 1: And you did not see a body in the snow?
[01:58:57] Carrie Roberts: No, I did not.
[01:58:58] Speaker 1: John O'Keefe, 6'2", 216 pounds, brawny guy, big boy, right?
[01:59:06] Carrie Roberts: I don't think I'd refer to him as a big boy, but he was tall, yes.
[01:59:10] Speaker 1: All right. You certainly didn't see him prostrate in the snow the way you found him the next morning, correct? Later that morning.
[01:59:19] Carrie Roberts: I didn't see anything on the ground, no.
[01:59:21] Speaker 1: Correct. The third time you looked out toward that SUV, it's still in the direction of the flagpole, but a little further up, a little deeper to the right, correct?
[01:59:35] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[01:59:36] Speaker 1: Again, looking directly in the direction at least of the flagpole in that area of the yard, you were looking beyond that to the SUV, correct? Yes. You did not see John O'Keefe standing outside the vehicle?
[01:59:49] Carrie Roberts: I did not, no.
[01:59:50] Speaker 1: He was not sitting outside the vehicle? No. He wasn't lying on the ground, was he?
[01:59:54] Carrie Roberts: I didn't see him.
[01:59:55] Speaker 1: And the last time you looked out, Ms. McCabe, this is now 12:45 or so. The last time you looked out, the SUV was gone. Is that right? Yes. But you were still looking in that direction because that's the last place you saw the SUV. Is that right?
[02:00:12] Carrie Roberts: I looked out the window like this. I wasn't searching anywhere, but just glanced out the window and I didn't see it.
[02:00:19] Speaker 4: I'm just asking you a direction. Not whether or not you were searching. I know you didn't see them searching for it. That's not my question. My question is, were you looking toward the area where you last saw the SUV? Around 12:45 K area. Yes.
[02:00:33] Speaker 5: That would be directly across the lawn, directly past the flagpole, and directly into the street
[02:00:39] Speaker 1: where you last saw the SUV, correct?
[02:00:41] Carrie Roberts: I glanced out, yes. Correct.
[02:00:43] Speaker 1: And the same way you glanced out at the SUV, to use your words, glanced out and saw the tire tracks.
[02:00:49] Carrie Roberts: Correct, yes.
[02:00:50] Speaker 1: You did not see John O'Keefe standing on the lawn.
[02:00:53] Carrie Roberts: No.
[02:00:54] Speaker 1: You did not see him sitting on the lawn. No. And you certainly did not see his body lying on the lawn, did you?
[02:01:00] Carrie Roberts: No. No, I did not.
[02:01:07] Speaker 1: Ultimately, you left the location that night, the gathering, that 34 Fairview. Is that right? You didn't spend the night there? No, I went home. About what time was it that you left the location? Approximately, it was after 1:30.
[02:01:21] Carrie Roberts: Approximately 1:30, 1:45.
[02:01:22] Speaker 1: So this is maybe an hour later than what we've just been discussing?
[02:01:35] Speaker ?: Yes.
[02:01:36] Speaker 1: Who did you leave with?
[02:01:37] Carrie Roberts: I left with my husband Matt and Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson. Who was driving? Sorry, my husband Matt was driving.
[02:01:45] Speaker 1: And where was Sarah Levinson and Julie Nagel sitting in that SUV? In that SUV?
[02:01:51] Carrie Roberts: They were in the back seat.
[02:01:52] Speaker 1: By the way, what kind of SUV were you in that night?
[02:01:56] Carrie Roberts: A Yukon.
[02:02:01] Speaker 1: Four-door extended seating? Yes. When the SUV pulled out of the driveway, it was in the driveway? Yes. When the SUV backed out of the driveway, doing a three-point turn, backed out of the driveway, did it go toward Chapman or did it go toward Cedar Crest?
[02:02:21] Carrie Roberts: It went towards Chapman.
[02:02:23] Speaker 1: So as you backed out of the driveway, you would have been heading toward the flagpole side of the property rather than back toward the driveway side of the property, correct? Correct. You would have driven directly adjacent to the area where John O'Keefe's body was later discovered at 6:04, 6:03 AM, correct? Yes, correct. You were seated in the passenger seat of the vehicle, not the driver's seat. Correct. You were seated in the front of the vehicle, not the back seat. Correct. You would have been closest to the yard as y'all drove past, correct? Correct. That's a newer model Yukon. I'm assuming that the headlights automatically turn on at night? Yes. So the headlights were illuminated?
[02:03:14] Carrie Roberts: Yes.
[02:03:15] Speaker 1: Did your husband, Matt, did he turn on the brights or did he leave the beams on low? Or do you know? I don't know. But certainly the area in front of that SUV, that Yukon, was well lit. The lights were on, yes. You did not see anything out of the ordinary as you drove right by that location, did you?
[02:03:37] Carrie Roberts: I was looking in the back seat when we were driving.
[02:03:40] Speaker 1: Did you see anything out of the ordinary on that lawn as you drove by in that SUV?
[02:03:46] Carrie Roberts: No, because I wasn't looking at the lawn.
[02:03:49] Speaker 1: You certainly did not see John O'Keefe dressed in dark clothing, laying prostrate in the lawn.
[02:03:55] Carrie Roberts: No. I just know it.
[02:03:59] Speaker 1: You said that you were turned around talking to the other young ladies in the SUV, Julie Nagel and Sarah Levinson. Is that right? Yes. You indicated that you were engaged with them about a conversation having to do with Brad and maybe Panamai or something. Yes. Do you think as you passed by that location adjacent to where John O'Keefe was discovered,
[02:04:23] Speaker 4: you didn't hear your juvenile say anything out of the ordinary about having seen something?
[02:04:28] Carrie Roberts: No.
[02:04:29] Speaker 4: Do you hear Sarah Levinson say anything out of the ordinary about having seen something?
[02:04:34] Carrie Roberts: No.
[02:04:35] Speaker 4: According to you, you were turned around directly engaged with both of these young ladies as you passed by that area where John O'Keefe was discovered. Is that right?
[02:04:44] Carrie Roberts: When we pulled out, I turned around and I was talking to them. About the bread and the peanut butter. I'm not sure exactly where we were driving, but it was when we pulled out. Yes.
[02:04:55] Speaker 1: You certainly never heard anybody say anything like what was that or anything close to that? No, I didn't. I'd like to turn your attention to your arrival back at 34 Fairview just after 6:00 a.m. the next morning. You indicate that the visibility was relatively poor and that you could not see John O'Keefe on that lawn from your perspective, correct?
[02:05:29] Carrie Roberts: It was the visibility was extremely poor and no, I could not see him.
[02:05:34] Speaker 1: You were in the front seat, passenger side? Yes, I was. It was Karen Reed who actually saw Mr. O'Keefe and jumped out of the car and began attending to him immediately, correct?
[02:05:47] Carrie Roberts: Karen got out of the car and ran to John O'Keefe.
[02:05:51] Speaker 1: And you stayed by the car and Ms. Roberts ran over to assist Ms. Reed in giving first aid to at least initially to Mr. O'Keefe. Is that right?
[02:06:01] Speaker ?: No, that is not.
[02:06:02] Carrie Roberts: Carrie got out and walked over and then I got out and walked over.
[02:06:06] Speaker 1: Yesterday you testified in pretty significant detail that when you got out of the car you could not see anything even close to the flagpole, correct?
[02:06:20] Carrie Roberts: Visibility was very bad, yes.
[02:06:22] Speaker 1: Matter of fact, you used the word whiteout conditions, is that right? Yes, I did. Whiteout conditions, you basically can't see your hand in front of your face.
[02:06:29] Carrie Roberts: I wouldn't say that extreme, but I used whiteout as there's just snow coming at you.
[02:06:35] Speaker 1: You were specifically asked by Mr. Brennan how close did you have to get before you could actually see anything of note where Ms. Reed had gone, is that right? Yes. You testified yesterday that you could see just merely shadowy figures of Ms. Reed and Carrie Roberts and it wasn't until you got very close over to them that you could see John in your words. Correct. As a matter of fact, you followed that up by saying that that was the first moment once you got basically on top of them, that was the first moment that you realized that it was John, that there was a body on the ground, correct?
[02:07:11] Carrie Roberts: I said as I got close to them. I said as I got close to them, I don't think on top of them.
[02:07:15] Speaker 1: Fair enough. My words, not yours. You did say, quote, very close to them, correct? I'd have to see it.
[02:07:21] Carrie Roberts: Well, you just testified yesterday.
[02:07:22] Speaker 1: You remember saying I could get very close to them.
[02:07:27] Carrie Roberts: I know, I said I had got very close to them or close to them, something like that, yes. Okay.
[02:07:32] Speaker 1: I don't have a chance to go through yesterday's testimony. I'm sorry. Last year you testified to something very different than that though, didn't you?
[02:07:44] Carrie Roberts: No.
[02:07:45] Speaker 1: Isn't it true that last year you testified that you got out on the passenger side of the vehicle, which is, we'll agree, the furthest side from the lawn as Ms. Roberts was driving from Chapman toward Crestview. Sorry, Cedar Crest, correct? Yes. You testified that you were on the passenger side and as you got out of the vehicle, you noted that Karen Reed was already at John. Is that right?
[02:08:18] Carrie Roberts: As I got out and walked around the back of the vehicle, the shadowy figure of Karen had already gotten onto something.
[02:08:26] Speaker 1: You further testified that as you got out of the vehicle, you noted that she straddled John, lifted up his shirt, lifted up her shirt and went to lay on it. And Ms. Roberts went over and said she would, and she was, started removing snow from John's face. Correct? I have the page and line number. Where are you, Mr. Justin?
[02:08:48] Speaker 3: Sure.
[02:08:49] Speaker 1: May 17, 2024, RT 114, lines 14 to bottom, onto 115, line four. Is that how you testified last year?
[02:09:07] Carrie Roberts: I'm sorry, would you mind just repeating it?
[02:09:09] Speaker 1: Sure. Thank you. You were on the same substance that you were on the passenger side of the vehicle and as you got out, quote, "as I got out," end quote, she, Ms. Reed, was already at John. You indicated that you saw her straddle him, lift up his shirt, lift up her shirt, and lay on top of him while Ms. Roberts went over and removed snow from his face. That's how you testified last year, correct?
[02:09:37] Speaker 3: Thank you. Is that how you testified last year? I'm not sure.
[02:09:45] Carrie Roberts: I know. Next question.
[02:09:47] Speaker 1: Would it refresh your recollection if you would look at a copy of your testimony from last year?
[02:09:52] Carrie Roberts: I don't think looking at, it would refresh my memory. I know. I might have used different words, but the bottom line is I got out of the car, went behind the car, went over, and Karen had done that.
[02:10:06] Speaker 4: Ms. McRae, I'm going to ask you, do you think it would refresh your recollection how to testify last year? Underload. Sitting on that for the fitness day. I'm asking, do you think it would refresh your recollection to see your transcript last year?
[02:10:19] Carrie Roberts: I don't need to see my transcript. I know what I know and I know what I remember, so. That's not my question.
[02:10:24] Speaker 4: I'm not asking what you remember now. I'm asking how you testified here. I don't know.
[02:10:28] Carrie Roberts: Whether I said it was as we're fighting over silly words. Whether I said as I got out of the car, we're there. Words matter.
[02:10:36] Speaker 5: You're having a lot. Okay.
[02:10:38] Speaker 3: So remember, Mr. Jackson, no comment. Ms. McRae, can I answer his question? Okay.
[02:10:45] Speaker 4: Do you remember exactly how it is that you testified last year? I do not, no.
[02:10:50] Carrie Roberts: May I have one?
[02:10:51] Speaker ?: Yes. May I, Your Honor? Yes. Thank you.
[02:10:55] Speaker 4: Ms. McCabe, does that refresh your recollection as to how you testified in substance last year?
[02:11:05] Speaker 1: I see what it says, I said, but it's a little bit different than what you stated.
[02:11:21] Carrie Roberts: Okay.
[02:11:22] Speaker 1: Then let's walk through that. Did you indicate last year that as you got out of the vehicle, that's when you could see what Ms. Reed was doing with John O'Keefe, down to the detail of pulling her shirt up and pulling his shirt up to try to go skin to skin? Skin to skin.
[02:11:37] Speaker ?: Exactly. Yeah.
[02:11:39] Speaker 3: Why don't I see a tie-bomb, which way do I get to Mr. Jackson first?
[02:11:43] Speaker 1: Ms. McCabe, is it true that you had the following colloquy last year on this subject? Answer, I was on the passenger side, so as I got out, she was already at John. Question, so she gets out and essentially makes a beeline over to where John was? Answer, correct. Question, and you're getting out of the passenger side, and by the time you come around the car, she's already there? Answer, yes. Question, and when she gets over there, what, if anything, could you see at that point? Answer, she straddles John and lifts up his shirt, and then she lifted up her shirt and went to lay on him, and Ms. Roberts went over and she was removing the snow from his face. Is that how you testified last year?
[02:12:37] Carrie Roberts: Yes, that's how I answered the questions. Okay.
[02:12:40] Speaker 1: Clearly, you didn't indicate last year that it was white-out conditions, you could see nothing of a kind, and you had to get very close to him before you could see anything, correct? Objection. Sustained.
[02:12:52] Speaker 3: It's the first word that's problematic.
[02:12:53] Speaker 1: Yesterday, you testified that it was white-out conditions, you had to leave the car, walk all the way over and get "very close" to John before you recognized that it was even a body. Is that right? Yes. But last year, you testified that you were still at the car when you noted the detail of
[02:13:23] Speaker 4: hearing, basically giving life-saving aid to John, you could see that yield all the way from the car, right?
[02:13:31] Speaker 3: Objection. Is that what you said, Ms. McCabe?
[02:13:33] Speaker 1: No. Is there a reason, Ms. McCabe, that you might wish to improve your testimony this year than over last year, with regard to the distance that you could see Ms. Reid engaged with Mr. O'Keefe? No. Are you trying to suggest or improve your testimony to suggest that you had no idea that there was a body there and nobody reasonably could have even seen the body there as you drove out?
[02:14:11] Speaker 4: Okay.
[02:14:12] Speaker 3: Is that what you're trying to say Ms. Reid?
[02:14:16] Speaker 5: Yes, Ms. McCabe. Okay.
[02:14:19] Carrie Roberts: Can you repeat the question, please?
[02:14:22] Speaker 5: I'm not sure. I'm sorry.
[02:14:24] Speaker 4: Are you trying to improve your testimony this year, over the last year, to suggest that reasonably nobody could have seen their telemarks from the car?
[02:14:38] Carrie Roberts: I'm not trying to improve my testimony, no.
[02:14:42] Speaker 1: You claimed on direct examination today, as a matter of fact, that Ms. Reid looked at you at the scene and said the phrase, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him." She said it three times, very distinctly, according to your testimony, correct? She did, yes. It was so impactful that it had the effect of putting you in some sort of shock and horror. Is that right?
[02:15:09] Carrie Roberts: I was in shock the whole morning, but that statement definitely was a lot.
[02:15:14] Speaker 1: And that's an incredibly memorable statement for you to have heard and now recount to us in this trial, correct?
[02:15:22] Carrie Roberts: Correct.
[02:15:23] Speaker 1: Something that you wouldn't easily forget or overlook, is that right? Something I wouldn't? Something you would not easily forget or overlook, is that right? Correct, yes. As a matter of fact, it's, some might say it's the centerpiece of your testimony. Objection. Abstain. Ms. McCabe, you testified at a grand jury in April of 2022, did you not?
[02:15:52] Carrie Roberts: I did, yes.
[02:15:53] Speaker 1: Before you testified, you took an oath, very much like the oath that you took before you testified in this case, correct? Correct. You swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, correct? Correct. And that included the whole truth at the state grand jury, correct?
[02:16:11] Speaker ?: Correct.
[02:16:12] Speaker 1: That was only weeks, several weeks, but weeks after this incident, right? April 26th versus January 29th, 2022. Is that right? Correct, yes. Things were much fresher in your mind then than they are now.
[02:16:29] Carrie Roberts: I wouldn't necessarily say that.
[02:16:31] Speaker 1: Especially something as momentous as an admission from my client that she hit him. Would you agree? Would I agree that she said that? Would you agree that that would be fresh in your mind, something as momentous as that? You wouldn't forget that? I'll never forget it.
[02:16:51] Carrie Roberts: You wouldn't overlook that.
[02:16:52] Speaker 1: I will never forget it. You would not overlook that either, would you, Miss McCabe?
[02:16:57] Carrie Roberts: I answer the questions I'm asked.
[02:17:00] Speaker 1: Can you answer the question that I just asked? You're not answering my question. Would you overlook that?
[02:17:05] Carrie Roberts: No.
[02:17:06] Speaker 1: And the reason you wouldn't overlook it is because it was so impactful on you, having heard that. Not once, not twice, three times. I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. Is that right? Yes.
[02:17:23] Speaker ?: Thank you. May I approach? Yes. Thank you. Take a look at that document.
[02:17:28] Speaker 3: Can you recognize it? Yes.
[02:17:30] Speaker ?: Yes, I see it.
[02:17:30] Speaker 3: Is that a transcript of your entire testimony at the grand jury in April of 2022?
[02:17:31] Speaker ?: I believe so, yes. Yes. You've reviewed it in the past? I have read it about a year ago. Yes. Okay. Yes.
[02:17:38] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you.
[02:17:40] Speaker 4: Take a look at that document.
[02:17:41] Speaker ?: Can you recognize it?
[02:17:42] Carrie Roberts: It's, yes, I see it.
[02:17:47] Speaker 1: Um, is that a transcript of your entire testimony at the grand jury in April of 2022?
[02:17:58] Carrie Roberts: I believe so, yes.
[02:17:59] Speaker 1: You've reviewed it in the past?
[02:18:01] Carrie Roberts: I have read it about a year ago, yes.
[02:18:03] Speaker 1: You read it in anticipation of your testimony a year ago, correct?
[02:18:06] Carrie Roberts: Yes, I reviewed it.
[02:18:07] Speaker 1: Have you reviewed it in preparation for your testimony today?
[02:18:10] Carrie Roberts: No, I haven't.
[02:18:11] Speaker 1: Yesterday. Um, Ms. McCabe, turn to the page or pages in that transcript where you reach out to the the grand jury in the past.
[02:18:23] Speaker ?: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:23] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:28] Speaker ?: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:31] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:34] Speaker 3: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:37] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:40] Speaker 3: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:43] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:45] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:48] Speaker ?: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:49] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:51] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:53] Speaker ?: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:18:54] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:07] Speaker 1: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:08] Speaker 3: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:11] Speaker 1: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:17] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:21] Speaker 5: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:22] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:23] Speaker 5: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:26] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:27] Speaker 5: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:29] Speaker 4: I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:30] Carrie Roberts: I'm going to read it in the past. I'm going to read it in the past.
[02:19:32] Speaker 4: That's not my question. Listen to my question, Ms. McCoy. I'm sorry.
[02:19:36] Speaker 5: Was it important to you, before you testified, to tell these jurors, on your own, that my client said, "I hit him three times"?
[02:19:48] Carrie Roberts: As a juror, I mean, as a witness, it's important to tell the truth and to answer the question you were asked.
[02:19:54] Speaker 5: And in point of fact, in your entire grand jury testimony, you never said, "My client said the words, "I hit him," did you?"
[02:20:06] Carrie Roberts: Again, it's 227 pages.
[02:20:09] Speaker 5: Ms. McCoy, you were there. They're your words. I'm not asking you to rehearse something. You were there. Did you tell the grand jurors that my client said, "I hit him"?
[02:20:19] Carrie Roberts: I have testified a number of times, but I was there the morning of January 29th when your client said, "I hit him, I hit him," I hit him.
[02:20:28] Speaker 1: Did you tell that to the grand jurors?
[02:20:30] Carrie Roberts: I'm not sure. It's because you didn't, did you? Again, I'm not sure.
[02:20:36] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy, you were asked, in your grand jury testimony, no fewer than a dozen times, 12 separate times, you were asked to repeat words that my client said both before, going
[02:20:50] Speaker 4: to, and at the scene at 24:30 that morning, correct?
[02:20:55] Carrie Roberts: Objection.
[02:20:56] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: Do you know the answer to that? No.
[02:20:58] Speaker 4: You were asked multiple times what my client's words were, that you heard her say, going to, and at the scene, correct? Ms. McCoy: I was correct.
[02:21:11] Speaker 5: And you recounted those words, truthfully and honestly at that time, correct?
[02:21:16] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Correct.
[02:21:17] Speaker 5: Because you were under the same oath that you heard her today. Ms. McCoy: Correct.
[02:21:21] Speaker 1: And things were much fresher in your mind then, than they are now, three and a half years later. Would you agree with that?
[02:21:28] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, it's just as fresh today as it was three years ago.
[02:21:34] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Turn to page 190, if you wouldn't mind. Ms. McCoy: Sure. Ms. McCoy: You recounted what Ms. Reid said to you over the phone, to the grand jurors, correct? Ms. McCoy: Correct. Ms. McCoy: And what she said at 4:53 a.m. was, did I hit him, could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: Could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: She didn't say it, she asked it, correct?
[02:21:57] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: She didn't say that at 4:53.
[02:22:00] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Did you testify that what Ms. Reid said to you that morning over the phone was, could I have hit him, did I hit him?
[02:22:12] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I did. Ms. McCoy: May I have heard?
[02:22:14] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: If you turn to page 192, what did you tell the grand jurors my client said in that answer? Ms. McCoy: What are we talking about? Ms. McCoy: I'll ask it a different way. Ms. McCoy: Did you answer a question on page 192, line 4, concerning my client's statement? Ms. McCoy: Did I answer a question? Ms. McCoy: You were answering a question, correct?
[02:22:46] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Oh yes, yes. Ms. McCoy: I'm sorry.
[02:22:48] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And the answer that you gave to the grand jurors was, she said, could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: Correct?
[02:22:57] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, that's part of the answer I gave.
[02:23:00] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Turn to page 193. Ms. McCoy: I'd object.
[02:23:07] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: So, I don't want to have to see itself out. Ms. McCoy: We need context in order for this to be admissible, Mr. Jackson. Ms. McCoy: I have no idea what that said.
[02:23:14] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Everyone, I can make an offer of proof and sidebar, if you would. Ms. McCoy: Sure.
[02:23:19] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: And bring them.
[02:23:21] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: On page 192, line 4, for context, were you talking about a statement that was made Ms. McCoy: in Karen's car on that morning before you got to the scene? Ms. McCoy: 192.
[02:23:36] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: 192, line 4. Ms. McCoy: Yes, that was a comment she made in the car.
[02:23:41] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And she said the phrase, you recounted that she said the phrase, could I have hit her? Ms. McCoy: Correct?
[02:23:46] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, that was part of my answer.
[02:23:48] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Take a look at page 193, line 1 through 2. Ms. McCoy: This was also in the context of the conversation that was in Karen's car, correct?
[02:24:02] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:24:04] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And the phrase that you attributed to my client was, could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: The question, correct?
[02:24:13] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:24:14] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Page 193, line 23, in the context of being in John's driveway at 1 Meadows? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: And you attributed the statement. Ms. McCoy: And she's asking if she could have hit him, correct?
[02:24:30] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, when she showed me her tail light.
[02:24:33] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Page 201, lines 23 and 24. Ms. McCoy: This is driving to Fairview. Ms. McCoy: She asked, what if I hit him, could I have hit him, correct?
[02:24:53] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Can you tell me the lines?
[02:24:55] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: I'm sorry, lines 23 and 24. Ms. McCoy: Page 201. Ms. McCoy: Okay, sorry.
[02:25:02] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Okay, I've read it.
[02:25:04] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: She stated, according to you, what if I hit him, could I have hit him, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes, she did. Ms. McCoy: Page 202, top of the page, line 1 and 2. Ms. McCoy: Again, in context, this is driving to Fairview before you arrived at Fairview. Ms. McCoy: And she again asked, quote, according to you and your testimony in front of the grand jury, could I have hit him, correct?
[02:25:29] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I see that here as part of my answer.
[02:25:33] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Then turn to page 208, lines 24 and 25. Ms. McCoy: For context, this is at the scene, outside Fairview. Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: And you told those grand jurors under oath, she asked, did I hit him, could I have hit him, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: On page 208, lines 24 and 20, I'm sorry, 208 and 209, going on to page 209, lines 1 through 3. Ms. McCoy: You actually recounted to the grand jurors a conversation that you said my client had with a female EMT standing right there, Ms. McCoy: Exactly as you testified to today, female EMT. Ms. McCoy: You see that?
[02:26:28] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I do, yes.
[02:26:29] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And what did you say my client's statements were in front of that female EMT?
[02:26:38] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: In this, I say that she said, could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:26:42] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: It's actually, did I hit him? Ms. McCoy: Oh, sorry, I missed that part.
[02:26:45] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I apologize. Ms. McCoy: Did I hit him? Ms. McCoy: Could I have hit him? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:26:51] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:26:59] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:03] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:12] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:14] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:22] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:28] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:30] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:36] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead?
[02:27:49] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Is he dead? Ms. McCoy: Was pretty non-stop. Ms. McCoy: Pretty much non-stop. Ms. McCoy: That was your testimony in front of the grand jurors, correct?
[02:28:09] Carrie Roberts: Ms. Yes, it was.
[02:28:10] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And that was April 26, 2022, correct?
[02:28:15] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Correct.
[02:28:16] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Not one time, Ms. McCoy, did you utter the phrase, "I hit him," as it relates to my client in front of that grand jury on April 26, 2022, did you? Ms. McCoy: Not once.
[02:28:37] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I'd have to read through the 227 pages to see.
[02:28:41] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: As you sit here today, do you remember ever saying to those grand jurors, she said,
[02:28:48] Speaker 4: "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him."
[02:28:52] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I've spoken to a few grand juries. Ms. McCoy: What I said specifically at different ones, I don't recall at this moment, but I do know that morning your client said, "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him," three times and there was a female EMT there.
[02:29:11] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: You spoke with Trooper Proctor just the same day, right, January 29th? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: Trooper Proctor was taking notes? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: About your conversation? Ms. McCoy: Yes, he was.
[02:29:32] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Did you review those notes?
[02:29:33] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Simple.
[02:29:34] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I didn't review his notes, I think I've seen a report at one point or another.
[02:29:39] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: On that very day, January 29th, 2022, when you were asked to recount what happened at the scene, who was doing what and who said what? Ms. McCoy: You never told Trooper Proctor that my client said I hit him either, did you?
[02:29:59] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Oh, I told him, yes, I did.
[02:30:01] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: You just leave that out of his report?
[02:30:03] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I'm not responsible for his report.
[02:30:06] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: No, you're not, but you have read his report.
[02:30:08] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: So again, no comments, Mr. Jackson.
[02:30:11] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: You haven't read it before, right?
[02:30:13] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I have seen it before, yes. Ms. McCoy: May I have a look, right?
[02:30:16] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: No problem.
[02:30:18] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Thank you. Ms. McCoy: You look at that report for another particular form, but you still recognize it?
[02:30:33] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I do.
[02:30:38] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Can you review that report, scan it? Ms. McCoy: And let me know when you're done.
[02:30:46] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Okay, is there something specific I should be looking for?
[02:30:49] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: I don't think you're going to find it, Ms. McCoy. Ms. McCoy: I hit him.
[02:30:52] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: All right, so again, jurors, disregard the comments. Ms. McCoy: So it's question, answer, format only.
[02:30:58] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: My question is, do you see the phrase, "I hit him," as it's attributable to my client in that report of Dexter. Ms. McCoy: System. Ms. McCoy: Do you recall telling Trooper Proctor that my client said, "I hit him," "I hit him," "I hit him?"
[02:31:26] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: Do you recall that?
[02:31:29] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I told him.
[02:31:31] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: He was taking notes at the time? Ms. McCoy: He was taking notes, correct?
[02:31:34] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Does that seem to have been normalized in a formal report?
[02:31:36] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: I'm assuming he -- Ms. McCoy: The report is your hold? Ms. McCoy: Yeah.
[02:31:40] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: It's his name.
[02:31:41] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Does that appear to be a report in January from that 11:35 or so AM interview that you did with Trooper Proctor?
[02:31:55] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, it does. Ms. McCoy: You said you reviewed that report in the past?
[02:31:57] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Yes, in the past.
[02:31:58] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Yes, in the past. Ms. McCoy: Yes, it does. Ms. McCoy: You said you reviewed that report in the past?
[02:32:01] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, in the past. Ms. McCoy: In the past.
[02:32:03] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past?
[02:32:08] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past?
[02:32:10] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past?
[02:32:12] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past? Ms. McCoy: In the past?
[02:32:15] Speaker 1: Ms. In the past? Ms. In the past? Ms. I want to draw your attention to the very early morning hours of January 29th, around 4:53 AM, when you indicated you received that phone call from Kaylee's phone. Ms. Do you have that time and date in mind? Ms. McCoy: Yes, I do. Ms. McCoy: My client told you that John had not come home, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: And you knew that Ms. Reed, at that point, was awake and looking for John?
[02:32:36] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I didn't know what -- I just knew that she was awake and screaming.
[02:32:42] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Right, because she was worried about where John was. Ms. McCoy: Objection. Ms. McCoy: Just kidding. Ms. McCoy: You've been asked who you communicated with first thing that morning after you received that first call from the street, is that right?
[02:32:55] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:32:56] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: You were asked by Trooper Prince in her formal interview. Trooper Prince interviewed you on February 1st, about three days after the incident, correct?
[02:33:04] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I've met with a lot. I don't really remember specific days.
[02:33:08] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Do you remember a female trooper?
[02:33:10] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I do, actually.
[02:33:11] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: In your house? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: I should say at your house? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: That was around three days after the incident?
[02:33:19] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Was it Tuesday? Ms. McCoy: Tuesday, maybe? Ms. McCoy: Yeah.
[02:33:23] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: I don't know. I wasn't there.
[02:33:25] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I think so, yes, if it's the one I'm thinking.
[02:33:28] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Okay.
[02:33:29] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: You were also asked at the same grand jury who you communicated with on the morning of January 29th. Ms. McCoy: Okay. Ms. McCoy: Do you remember that?
[02:33:40] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Not specifically.
[02:33:42] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Would it refresh your recollection if we were to take a look at a specific page of grand jury transcript?
[02:33:49] Speaker 3: Ms. McCoy: Sure.
[02:33:50] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: All right. Whenever you're ready, Mr. Jackson. Ms. McCoy: Thank you, Your Honor.
[02:33:53] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Ms. McCoy: I want to draw your attention back to the morning, later in the morning, after you're back at 34 Fairview, after the police have already cleared the scene, and you're back with your friends and family inside the home at 34 Fairview. Ms. McCoy: We've already talked about the fact that the witnesses were not sequestered in any way. Ms. McCoy: They were not separated in any way by the police. Is that right?
[02:34:19] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: We were just sitting together with friends and family. Ms. McCoy: Right.
[02:34:25] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: So yeah, no. Ms. McCoy: Everybody was free. Ms. McCoy: All the friends and family that were in there were free to talk amongst themselves, which you did do, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: All right. Ms. McCoy: Everybody had the opportunity to say their piece and to listen to others say their piece as well.
[02:34:36] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: We had conversations. Ms. McCoy: There was really nothing more than that.
[02:34:41] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: At some point you did, I think you mentioned this on direct examination, you did reach out to Mike Lank. Ms. McCoy: Is that right? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: Remind us who Mike Lank is in your world. Ms. McCoy: In addition to being a Canton police officer, police sergeant I think he was at the time, who is he in your world?
[02:34:59] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: He was just a local guy that I knew was friendly with.
[02:35:03] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: And had you gone to high school with? Ms. McCoy: No. Ms. McCoy: Was he in high school?
[02:35:08] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: We weren't in high school at the same time.
[02:35:10] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: He was about five years in high school, is that right? Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:35:13] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Okay. Ms. McCoy: But you've known him or known of him from basically childhood or young adulthood?
[02:35:21] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yeah, I just knew him from around town.
[02:35:23] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: At some point you decided that you were going to call Sergeant Lank back to the scene, Ms. McCoy: because there was a piece of information that you wanted to provide him again. Ms. McCoy: Sorry, provide him so he needed to come back again.
[02:35:42] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:35:43] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Ultimately, you called him on his cell phone, right?
[02:35:47] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I did, yes.
[02:35:48] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: So you were close enough that you had his cell phone number, he had your cell phone number?
[02:35:51] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: No, I didn't have his cell phone number.
[02:35:53] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Where did you get that number?
[02:35:54] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I asked Julie Albert for that number.
[02:35:56] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: So Julie had his cell phone number? Ms. McCoy: Yes, she did. Ms. McCoy: And Julie is Chris's wife? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: She was at the location? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: When I say the location, 34 Fairview that morning? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: As was Chris?
[02:36:07] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: He came at some point, I don't know if he was there when I called Officer Lank or not.
[02:36:12] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: As was Brian Higgins, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes, he was. Ms. McCoy: He came back over to the location as well? Ms. McCoy: Yes, he did. Ms. McCoy: As a matter of fact, it was Brian Higgins who suggested that you reach out to Officer Lank. Ms. McCoy: Officer Lank.
[02:36:26] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I'm not sure if it was him who suggested it.
[02:36:29] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Someone suggested to you that you reach out to Officer Lank, is that right?
[02:36:33] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: As I was sitting there remembering things, I believe, you know, I can't say who did or didn't.
[02:36:42] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: So as you were sitting there remembering things, you weren't just remembering things, Ms. McCoy: you were remembering things and then telling others things that you remember. Ms. McCoy: Oh, absolutely. Ms. McCoy: So others were absorbing whatever information you were providing to them and vice versa.
[02:36:57] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: No one was really providing me any information because they didn't know what happened. Ms. McCoy: So you were, sorry, go ahead. Ms. McCoy: Okay, I'm sorry. Ms. McCoy: I was just sitting there trying to recount what had transpired since I got that 453 phone call.
[02:37:11] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And one of the things that you decided, Ms. McCoy: you wanted to tell Sergeant Lank was a statement by my client. Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: So you called Sergeant Lank on his cell phone and you're able to get a hold of him, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: Whatever he's doing, was he, I'm guessing he was busy at the time.
[02:37:32] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I don't know what he was doing.
[02:37:34] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: I would assume, I, again, don't know what he was doing. Ms. McCoy: But in fact, after you got the phone call, you dropped everything and headed back to 34 Fairby, correct? Ms. McCoy: Yes. Ms. McCoy: Assistant. Ms. McCoy: Did he come back to 34 Fairby quickly?
[02:37:53] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: He was there fairly quickly, yes, I would tell you.
[02:37:58] Speaker 4: Ms. So you had your request?
[02:37:59] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, I called him and asked him to come back.
[02:38:01] Speaker 4: Ms. Because you told him that you had information that was important to him that he needed to get over there so you could tell him in person what this information was.
[02:38:10] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I called him and told him that I was remembering things and asked if he could come back.
[02:38:15] Speaker 4: Ms. And he didn't just say, you're not just telling me what he was in the car. Ms. He literally said, "Okay, I'm going to get in my car, drive in a blizzard." Ms. McCoy: It was still a blizzard, right? Ms. McCoy: Yes, it was. Ms. I mean, get all my gear on, drive in a blizzard, back over the place with my security, get out of my cruiser, come into the house, and get ready for this new information that you're going to give me, correct? Ms. McCoy: He did not say all that, no. Ms. No, that's what he did.
[02:38:35] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I have no idea what he did.
[02:38:37] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: I called him and then he came.
[02:38:38] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Well, he didn't walk with him. Ms. McCoy: He came over to his car, right? Ms. McCoy: I would assume so, yes.
[02:38:41] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: So he had to take his car, drive over to the blizzard, get out of the car, walk through the blizzard, go to the front door and get ready for this new meeting that he's going to have, correct?
[02:38:54] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Yes, that seems like steps one would take.
[02:38:58] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And whatever it was that you wanted to tell him, you let him know it was important enough to have a special, additional meeting. It wasn't something that you were just going to sit on, you wanted to give him this information immediately, without hesitation, correct?
[02:39:13] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: He said if I remembered anything, to give him a call, so I did.
[02:39:17] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: So when he came back over, he obviously had a notepad and a pen in his hand, correct?
[02:39:20] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I believe he was taking notes.
[02:39:23] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: And you told him, you testified this morning, that what you told him was Karen Reed said, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, right?
[02:39:35] Speaker 5: Ms. McCoy: Correct.
[02:39:36] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: What he wrote in the report, you said, she said, I hope I didn't hear him, correct?
[02:39:47] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: I don't have his report in front of me.
[02:39:50] Speaker 4: Ms. McCoy: Thank you.
[02:39:53] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Thank you.
[02:39:54] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: You're welcome. Ms. McCoy: If you could turn to the orange tab. Ms. McCoy: Do you see that? Ms. McCoy: I do, yes. Ms. McCoy: Okay, and have a chance to read it?
[02:40:10] Carrie Roberts: Ms. McCoy: Just the highlighted.
[02:40:12] Speaker 1: Ms. McCoy: Okay. Ms. McCoy: May I approach? Ms. McCoy: Yes.
[02:40:15] Speaker ?: Ms. McCoy: Say it. Ms. McCoy: Okay.
[02:40:17] Speaker 1: in fact what you told officer lank was something to the effect of i hope i didn't hit him
[02:40:30] Carrie Roberts: correct incorrect i told him that she said i hit him he wrote in his report she just read
[02:40:38] Speaker 1: something to the effect of i hope i didn't sustain is this another example of an officer getting a report wrong is that report right your honor
[02:40:53] Speaker 3: move on mr jackson
[02:40:56] Speaker 1: i hope i didn't hit him or something to the effect of i hope i didn't hit him
[02:41:08] Speaker 4: it does it does sound similar yeah
[02:41:18] Speaker 1: you testified yesterday that during that first phone call that first phone conversation with miss reed at 4 53 a.m she told you according to your testimony that in that phone call in that very first phone call ms reed said she had gotten into a fight her taillight was cracked and she asked could i have hit him or did i hit him
[02:41:52] Carrie Roberts: correct incorrect tell me where i'm wrong um the first phone call she had said we got into a fight and he didn't come home and i left him at the waterfall in the second phone call once i told her that i saw her outside of my sister's house um on fairview that is when she said could she have hit him and talked about her tail light
[02:42:16] Speaker 1: so two hours after ms reed found john o'keefe and began giving him cpr you were interviewed by sergeant sean good correct that's actually
[02:42:32] Speaker 3: ask the question differently mr jepson
[02:42:36] Speaker 1: two hours after miss reed found mr o'keefe about two hours later say eight o'clock 8 30 in the morning after the scene was cleared you were interviewed by sean good were you not objection let me report your honor yes while you were at the scene after miss reed had been giving cpr sean good interviewed you correct
[02:43:13] Carrie Roberts: i don't remember a formal interview with sean good do you remember talking to him when he arrived at the scene i do remember briefly talking to him after all three of us gave john cpr and he gave you
[02:43:28] Speaker 1: he asked you rather he asked you certain questions about what you'd seen what you'd heard what had
[02:43:34] Carrie Roberts: happened correct i have to tell you that i remember seeing him there and i remember talking to him but i do not remember specifics of any conversation or any questions that he asked me do you remember
[02:43:45] Speaker 1: him telling you i'm sorry do you remember him asking you about any initial calls you had and you telling him about that 453 call and the early morning calls thereafter the initial calls before you met up with miss reed i don't recall did you tell sergeant good by the way he's a sergeant at the time sean good was a sergeant not an officer i'm not sure okay um by the way you knew sergeant
[02:44:08] Carrie Roberts: good did you not i didn't know him i knew of him like i knew his name but that was it how'd you know of him before that day because his sister is a year or two younger than me and i knew she had a brother that was younger that was a canton cop just through the town but i didn't know him okay friendly but not friends i wouldn't even say i was friendly with him okay
[02:44:33] Speaker 1: you actually told sergeant good at the time when he asked about those first phone calls that when miss reed called you she was inquiring about john's whereabouts correct
[02:44:52] Carrie Roberts: again i don't recall my conversations with sean good you certainly never mentioned to sergeant good
[02:44:59] Speaker 1: the incessant screaming and hysteria that you've described here in court objection did you ever mention anything about an argument or a fight to sean good objection
[02:45:12] Speaker 3: sustain mr jackson she said she didn't remember next question i have to go through the the the
[02:45:18] Speaker 1: theories of machinations i don't know what she remembers and doesn't remember next question mr jackson did you mention anything about a cracked tail light to sergeant good objection do you have no memory at all about what you talked to sergeant good about there were many
[02:45:33] Carrie Roberts: officers there and like i said i know i talked to sergeant good but i do not remember the specifics of my conversation during that chaotic scene i'm sorry let me ask a different question there
[02:45:44] Speaker 1: were many officers there and many officers were asking you questions correct correct did you ask i'm sorry did you tell any officer while at the scene that during those first few phone calls uh first couple of phone calls with miss reed that there was incessant screaming and hysteria
[02:46:02] Carrie Roberts: again there were many officers asking me questions most of them were regarding who john was if he had medical issues or concerns things like that right it was a chaotic scene i don't remember any
[02:46:15] Speaker 1: specific questions about phone calls i apologize but you did tell at least one officer about the initial phone call that you received indicating that john may be missing correct
[02:46:29] Carrie Roberts: i possibly said i got a phone call and that's why i'm here we all came out to look for him i i apologize
[02:46:35] Speaker 1: for not remembering specifics did you tell any officer at the scene anything about an argument or fighting that miss reed said occurred on that first couple of phone calls again the conversations were very brief and
[02:46:49] Carrie Roberts: they were with a lot of different officers there was yes or no in-depth conversation let her answer the
[02:46:55] Speaker 1: question do you recall that is a yes or no question do you recall telling any officer about a conversation in the initial couple of phone calls that you had with miss reed about fighting or being in an argument
[02:47:09] Carrie Roberts: do you recall that i cannot answer yes or no well you either do or you don't if you don't i said there was many different conversations i am not sure so you don't recall i'm not sure on specific conversations
[02:47:25] Speaker 1: about that i apologize is there a reason why you're not telling us that you simply don't recall making that statement sustained do you recall telling any officer about a cracked tail light that came up in
[02:47:38] Carrie Roberts: one of those first two phone calls at the scene at the scene again i think all the phone call all the conversations were about what was happening in the present time and literally this was a couple of
[02:47:50] Speaker 1: hours after this incident correct when everything was freshest in your mind these conversations were at
[02:47:56] Carrie Roberts: the scene when miss reed was running around screaming were you also interviewed by an officer malaney again there were many officers there that i spoke to miss mccabe do you understand my question did you understand the last question i asked if i spoke to an officer malaney again i i could have i am not sure i don't remember every officer it was a chaotic scene i just found my friend on the ground so the answer is i don't remember i don't remember speaking to him no sorry
[02:48:45] Speaker 1: later that morning you did have a conversation with officer length that you actually do remember correct yes correct what you told officer lank or sergeant lank was that you received a phone call from kaylee's phone and that karen reed was distraught because john never came home correct i told him she was i don't
[02:49:12] Carrie Roberts: remember the exact words but i told him something like she was hysterical and screaming and said john never
[02:49:18] Speaker 1: came home you never mentioned that she said anything about a fight during that initial phone call correct
[02:49:25] Carrie Roberts: again i'm not sure what exactly was said during that initial phone call
[02:49:31] Speaker 1: you never mentioned that she said something about a cracked taillight in that initial phone call or those two phone calls correct these phone calls with who who are these phone calls here who am i speaking to initial phone calls that you had with miss reed yes you never mentioned to officer lank or sergeant lank that miss reed mentioned anything about a fight or an argument correct i i don't remember you don't you never mentioned anything about uh having a miss reed saying anything about a cracked taillight in one of those two initial phone calls correct
[02:50:04] Carrie Roberts: again i don't remember what i all the things that i told officer lank and you certainly never mentioned
[02:50:09] Speaker 1: that miss reed said anything about could i have hit him during in either of those initial phone calls
[02:50:15] Carrie Roberts: correct again i don't remember my specific conversation with officer lank
[02:50:23] Speaker 1: so you don't remember the conversation that you had with officer lank when it was the clear light of day you had had a chance to take a beat and a breath catch your breath because it's now 11 30 11 o'clock in the morning you don't remember anything about that conversation but according to your testimony you remember in detail what my client said waking you out of a dead sleep correct
[02:50:50] Carrie Roberts: so i didn't speak to him at 11 30. it was earlier in the morning when he came back to fear view
[02:50:55] Speaker 1: let's call it nine o'clock whatever okay right whatever it wasn't the same chaos as my client
[02:51:03] Speaker 5: screaming into the phone that john never came home waking you out of a dead sleep correct correct
[02:51:09] Speaker 1: but when you recounted that conversation or those conversations to sergeant lank you didn't see a thing about miss reed saying that there had been an argument did you i'm saying i don't remember
[02:51:22] Carrie Roberts: the specifics of my conversation with officer lank i'm also saying that i was woken up out of a dead sleep i was karen showed up at my house screaming i went out to help her look for john and then we found one of my closest friends on the front lawn and she was saying crazy things and acting crazy and acting erratic and so every police officer that i spoke to let her finish every police officer that i spoke to i tried to answer their questions the best i could it took me hours and in some cases days to remember all the things that miss reed had said my mind i was in a state of shock but i the minute i remembered she said i hit him i hit him i hit him i called officer lank and your memory is getting
[02:52:13] Speaker 4: better even as we speak today correct there are certain things i will never forget mr jackson including the fact that you never ever ever said she said the words like him to a grand jury when you were asked about it three months after this she said i hit him i hit him i hit him i never told that to the grand
[02:52:34] Carrie Roberts: jurors did you i don't i can't i don't remember specifically that every grand jury and everything i said but i can tell you with a hundred percent accuracy she screamed i hit him i hit him i don't recall if i did to get the truth correct the truth is she said i hit him i hit him i hit him you were
[02:52:57] Speaker 1: asked that specific question at the grand jury what did she say at the scene in front of the female emt and you know what your answer was you do because you just read it i wasn't asked what she was said at
[02:53:12] Speaker 3: the same answer to that question i'm objecting the objection sustained ask one more clear questions
[02:53:18] Speaker 4: to jackson what was the answer you gave in the in the answer to the question about what was said by
[02:53:25] Speaker 5: miss reed to the emt the female emt at the scene what did you say she said i don't know if i was asked
[02:53:34] Carrie Roberts: specifically what she said to a female emt all right we're going to end this now your honor i have one
[02:53:39] Speaker 3: more question go ahead i can't end it like this okay jurors ignore the comments of counsel ask one
[02:53:49] Speaker 1: question mr jackson you said that she said could i have hit him did i hit him in the presence of the female emt that's what you testified to underloat at the grand jury isn't it yes because she also said
[02:54:04] Speaker 3: that all right so folks we are done for today um you remember tomorrow is the day that we're not in session so i will see you friday friday is a full day and i have to give you those questions you can you can stay file out after the jurors