JKL interview — Friends and foes - Munya, Gachagua clash over opposition unity [Part 1]

[0:00] Peter Munya, former cabinet secretary, former governor of Merrill County, [0:05] and now seems to be in a tussle with DCP leader Rigadi Gashagwa. [0:10] Take a listen to what the DCP leader had to say today at Wamunyoro in Nyeri County. [0:16] Take a listen. [0:16] I want to clarify today that DCP and Rigadi Gashagwa welcome all political parties. [0:26] They come. We compete fairly. [0:31] The only thing atutaki mashindano ni kitimo ya rais peke yake. [0:39] Hii otandaka tuwelewane zote. [0:41] And since Munya anasema one time, Muturi anasema one time. [0:46] Uyu kifuthe anasema one time. [0:48] Iko vita wapi? [0:50] There's no problem. [0:51] They are all saying the same thing. [0:53] The only difference is the level of activity. [0:55] So how do we talk with the people who have not consolidated anything? [0:59] Sasa wewe kama unakuja peke yako wa mkutano na hili siyasa ya kutafuta u raisi. [1:05] Utaongea na nani? [1:07] Uwe uwe uwe peke yako natambia kama miti. [1:10] You are alone. [1:11] Atiwona dimasuku muso. [1:13] Atiwa hoteli. [1:14] How? [1:15] How? [1:15] How do you talk to somebody ya anawatu? [1:18] Sisi na wamiya wae ndasanya watu. [1:21] Then tukuja kwa mesa tuwansa kuketi. [1:25] Waziri, he says, nini ha muna hatu muna tambea peke enu. [1:29] You're alone. [1:30] What's going on? [1:31] That's the kind of language you are seeing is demeaning. [1:35] And we would ask him, and we have asked him in our press conference, to use respectful language when he is addressing other lindas. [1:44] How do you say people have no people? [1:48] I mean, I lind a party called PNU, an old party. [1:53] You've seen meetings I've been doing everywhere in the Meru. [1:57] You've seen me in political activities. [1:59] I've been elected linda for a long time. [2:02] How can you say I don't have any people? [2:06] That is demeaning. [2:09] And I think it is, it behoves Achagwa at his level of lindaship. [2:14] You have been a deputy president to speak better language when discussing other lindas. [2:19] Do you think he's... [2:20] And that's what you are saying is divisive language. [2:22] Yeah. [2:22] Do you think he's acting like a bully? [2:25] That's what he is. [2:27] He's not acting as a bully. [2:28] He's a bully. [2:29] You saw when he talked about the governor of Muranga the other day, calling him Kierereere and telling him, [2:39] and the governor was attacked by goons when he went to Olkalau. [2:43] We think he needs to act more responsibly when dealing with lindas and everybody else, all human beings. [2:50] It doesn't have to be lindas only. [2:52] Be more responsible. [2:54] Use your language in a more courteous manner. [2:58] You'll go far, farther than you have gone. [3:00] But tell me something. [3:01] Have you tried to have a private discussion with Achagwa? [3:07] Have you tried, you know, rather than airing it in public, have you tried to talk to him privately? [3:13] Well, sometimes you talk to somebody privately and you see it's not happening. [3:23] It's not changing. [3:25] You just keep quiet and it reaches a point where you feel you must express that publicly. [3:29] There was a time when he was deputy president. [3:35] I've never had any issues with him. [3:37] I've never quarreled with him. [3:38] In fact, I was one of the best friends of his late brother. [3:41] I went to visit his brother in hospital in the UK representing other governors. [3:45] I was representing governors in the funeral of his brother. [3:49] Immediately he was elected. [3:50] He went to Meru. [3:52] He said, [3:52] He needs to walk slowly. [3:59] I don't know when I walked very fast, where, and what I was saluting. [4:04] So, we don't have anything personal against Mwishimiwa Kachagwa. [4:08] We respect him. [4:10] He has done a lot of work in terms of exposing the failures of the current government, especially after being impeached, because he was also a big defender of this government when he was inside the government. [4:22] So, we respect him. [4:26] We want to work with him, but we want him to, the tendency of wanting to be a dictator and issuing threats to other people, he needs to stop it. [4:36] Tell me something, Waziri. [4:38] And it is important that he lets people judge when elections are done, who has the people and who doesn't have people. [4:43] I think I have a lot of supporters. [4:47] I've been elected several times. [4:49] I can't be lacking people. [4:51] Then how come your party got less than 30 votes or 38 votes in Okalawa? [4:54] Well, read what the young man who ran said. [4:58] He has already posted something there saying, why he ran? [5:02] He came to our office. [5:04] He pleaded that he needed to run because he's a young man. [5:06] He needs to get experience because we didn't want to run anyone. [5:10] We said, because I also ran when I was a very young man. [5:13] I said, we can't stop the dream of this young man merely because we know he can't win. [5:19] He said, let him get the experience. [5:20] We knew he wouldn't get much votes. [5:22] You'd even see me campaigning for him there. [5:24] But he insisted, as a young man, he needed to be given an opportunity to start experiencing politics for the future. [5:33] The young girl also came to my office with elders from Memuru and Kiri, 27-year-old girl. [5:41] Came with elders to my office. [5:44] She also said she wants to run. [5:46] And asked her, why are you not running in the parties that are popular in your area? [5:51] She said, it is because PNU is the only party that has done a lot of work in Memuru and Kiri during Kibaki's time. [5:59] That's why they have chosen to run in the party. [6:03] I said, in this case also, I can't destroy the dreams of a young person who is 27 years. [6:09] Merely because I can see they are not likely to win. [6:12] Politics is about participation. [6:13] Politics is also about winning only. [6:15] It's about numbers as well. [6:17] Well, numbers, it is. [6:19] It's also about participation. [6:21] You can't exclude young people, marginalize them, because you think they can't win. [6:26] One of the principles of PNU is to support young people in leadership. [6:32] And be winning is not an event. [6:34] There are people who win first time. [6:36] There are others who lose, who win second time or the other time. [6:41] A lot of people, I mean, it is winning and losing. [6:44] It's part of it. [6:45] So to demean those who don't win an election and call them names and say they have no people is again demeaning. [6:51] He does not understand the constitution of Kenya, the right to participate in elections, freedom of association. [6:57] Those are the fundamental rights we are telling him. [7:00] Stop trending on them. [7:06] They are important, even as much as winning is important. [7:11] And you know he led an election in Mbere. [7:15] Yeah, in Mbere, yes. [7:16] He was the lead campaigner. [7:18] That candidate lost. [7:20] Did he win? [7:22] So in politics, there is winning and losing. [7:25] But that was a DP candidate, not DCP. [7:28] Irrespective. [7:29] Why did he become a DP candidate when he lost? [7:32] Because he was in the forefront for the campaign, for that candidate. [7:36] So if he loses, he's not his candidate. [7:38] Okay. [7:38] If he wins, it is his. [7:40] Fine. [7:40] DCP won. [7:41] He can't choose, you know, blowout and code. [7:43] Sure, but DCP won in Okalao. [7:47] As I've said, you can win and lose. [7:50] One time you win, another time you lose. [7:51] They won. [7:52] I am not saying that. [7:53] We congratulated him. [7:54] Even in rallies, in Mbere, I congratulated him. [7:57] And I said, it's a good example for the opposition. [8:00] Does that mean he should demean us because he won in Okalao? [8:04] When he loses, what will he do? [8:08] Tell me something. [8:08] This bullying attitude that you describe, do other principles in the opposition feel the [8:17] same way? [8:18] I think so. [8:20] I think so. [8:21] I can tell you. [8:22] I don't want to give names, but there's that general feeling that he's a bully. [8:27] And he does that publicly all the time. [8:30] How many times has he said, you know, people with a few votes, even now you're saying we [8:35] don't have people, isn't that bullying come with people and he's acting like a prefect. [8:40] Is he the one who designs, who brings what people and where, who has appointed him those [8:47] positions? [8:47] So, so, so we are saying if we really want to win, let us look at the bigger picture. [8:56] Let us treat each other with respect. [8:59] Let's sit down and discuss, look for a structured manner in which we can bring the opposition [9:05] together. [9:06] And then we can be able to face our opponents, who is the current president and his government. [9:12] Wazir, I want you to take a listen to what you and Justin Motori and Lenny Kivuti had [9:16] to say yesterday in the press conference. [9:18] Let's take a listen to that. [9:21] Why are you saying in the absence of those other leaders or those parties, why are you [9:25] telling them to dissolve and join DCP? [9:29] And you just, I mean, you formed your party the other day. [9:33] You found these parties in existence. [9:36] What has prompted you to think that they should dissolve and join these new outfits? [9:43] We also reject any impression that Honra Bugachagua has been appointed or mandated to speak on [9:53] behalf of all the people, all political parties associated with the Mount Kenya region. [10:00] Nor has any consensus been reached conferring such authority upon him. [10:08] And we are part of the United Opposition. [10:11] So, would you rather have us not talk anything about the reorganizing, about the self-respect, about, you know, how things should be? [10:26] You would like us to keep quiet until we sit in a boardroom? [10:29] Waziri, why is the United Opposition so divided? [10:34] We have differences of opinion. [10:40] And it's some of those also, the utterances of our brother in that part that is causing this division. [10:48] But I'm sure they are not insurmountable. [10:50] We can sit down and discuss and be able to reach somewhere. [10:53] And I'm happy with what he has said, even though he still uses condescending language. [11:00] I'm happy he has retreated in terms of saying the other parties should resolve. [11:07] He has taken back his words. [11:10] So, we are just telling him to tone down his language in terms of denying greeting other lenders. [11:17] And then let's have a, create an atmosphere where we can be able to sit down as opposition leaders and be able to agree on the way forward in terms of presenting one candidate to face the WUNDA candidate. [11:31] And you've got 12 months to do this. [11:34] Can you people unite behind one candidate? [11:39] The way you are so divided right now, the way you are fighting amongst yourselves. [11:43] Can you unite in this time, in the 12 months? [11:45] 12 months is a long time in politics. [11:49] We can and we have started. [11:51] You saw us at the SKM Center reorganizing Azimio and there are several parties, many parties. [12:01] We have invited other parties also to join. [12:04] Linda Manainchi is in the process of transforming itself into a party. [12:08] And they have also indicated the likelihood of joining. [12:11] Gachagua and the chairman of Azimio have been having discussions on the possibility of Gachagua and his outfit also joining. [12:23] What we are saying is to create an environment where we can be able to work together. [12:28] We need to reduce that bravando and name calling and condescending language in our discussions. [12:38] Even as we compete, because nobody is saying we don't compete. [12:41] We are competing for candidates. [12:43] He is looking for candidates. [12:44] I am looking for candidates. [12:45] Other leaders are looking for candidates. [12:47] We are all in agreement that the top seat will represent one candidate. [12:53] What we need is a structured way and a transparent way in which we can be able to pick that one candidate. [13:00] And I think the environment we are in now where we are talking at each other and calling each other names and demeaning each other is not the right environment for that kind of discussion. [13:12] We are telling him that he needs to tone down that language if he is interested in actually the success of the opposition. [13:22] What if he doesn't? [13:25] Well, why can we assume he won't? [13:29] You can see he is already retreating in his language. [13:34] So I don't want to assume that he will not. [13:39] But he told you today in that function, he says, [13:42] You are valueless politically. [13:50] That's why Ape is not a presidential candidate. [13:55] Because I don't think I would want that kind of a person to be, I would not support that kind of a candidate, a person to run the country. [14:03] Because those dictatorial tendencies are the same ones we are saying we don't want in the current government. [14:08] How can you call people meaty, walking like sticks? [14:11] He thinks there is something wrong with, there is something wrong with him and he needs to address that very angently. [14:22] Tell me something, did this come up at Monday's Azimeo Council meeting, which was attended virtually by former President Uhuru Kenyatta? [14:30] Did it come up with this matter of the bullying and the dictatorial? [14:36] In the discussion, the general discussion? [14:37] Yes. [14:38] Not at all. [14:39] We consulted, me, Justin Muturi and Lenny Kivut on this particular matter. [14:46] And we decided to make a statement. [14:48] Because he talked about our parties. [14:50] He didn't talk about WIPA. [14:51] He didn't talk about even Jubilee, even though he has talked about Jubilee in the past. [14:55] He talked about our parties, DP, PNU, the Mbass party, and another party led by Kawira. [15:08] So we consulted and said we needed to make a statement that would advise him to change his ways. [15:16] When were you asked to dissolve your party? [15:19] He was in a church function in Meru. [15:21] And after the church is when he addressed Mindya in a rally and said we need to dissolve our parties and join the Mulima party. [15:32] He says DCP is a Mulima party. [15:35] One party, one people, one region. [15:38] That is his approach. [15:40] Yeah. [15:41] Are you going to dissolve PNU? [15:44] We refused to dissolve PNU. [15:46] Remember there was a time that parties were being merged to support President Uhuru Kenyatta for his second re-election. [15:55] We refused. [15:57] We actually went to court to ensure that PNU does not merge. [16:02] Because we believe Kenya being a multi-party democracy requires us to have multiplicity of parties so that ideas can compete. [16:12] When you narrow down to a monolithic political system, you start taking us back that path we have gone before, [16:20] where we had one party called Kanu that was dictating everything and the country was in a lot of problems. [16:26] So we believe for our country to prosper and democracy to grow, we need a multiplicity of parties. [16:34] And that's why we keep depending on that position whenever we see some dictatorial tendencies emerging. [16:40] And we can see them emerging. [16:41] And yet PNU has... [16:42] And if you look at, for example, you know, other areas where you are one party that has been dominating for a long time, [16:50] you see certain challenges when it comes to people expressing themselves and new ideas coming. [16:56] So we believe that parties must compete, big or small. [17:03] I mean, there's nothing wrong with being big. [17:05] Neither is there anything wrong with being small. [17:07] That's why even people are not the same. [17:09] Some are big. [17:10] Some are small. [17:12] They are all God's people. [17:13] And yet PNU has zero MPs in parliament. [17:18] So maybe Raghadi Gashagou has a point. [17:20] I think he doesn't understand it. [17:22] Last election, I was a cabinet minister. [17:24] I wasn't even the party leader in the last election. [17:26] Yeah. [17:27] Remember? [17:27] So I didn't post any candidates to run PNU. [17:32] So I'm building the party now. [17:34] Let him wait for the coming election. [17:36] We run very many MPs, very many MCAs. [17:40] If you do some opinion polling in certain regions, for example, Meru, you'll see PNU is the most popular party in Meru, as we speak. [17:50] So parties, Hunda was the biggest party in parliament now. [17:57] Can they even have one MP in Mount Kenya right now, as we speak? [18:02] So let's not look at things in that very narrow lens of looking at now. [18:10] Politics keeps developing. [18:11] Parties keep growing. [18:14] Some go down. [18:14] Others go down, depending on the circumstances and depending on the leadership at that particular point. [18:20] Last election, I was not a candidate. [18:22] I was promoting the candidature of Rayla Odinga. [18:25] I didn't post any candidates. [18:27] Actually, I promoted Jubilee candidates. [18:29] And the Jubilee candidates won in Meru. [18:32] So we have Jubilee candidates whom I was supporting as a campaign chairman of that region that time. [18:40] And they won. [18:41] Yes. [18:42] Meru actually produced three MPs on Jubilee ticket, which I was supporting. [18:48] Tell me something. [18:50] You were there in 1992 during the multi-party democracy, right? [18:53] Yes. [18:53] Do you see a repeat, a deja vu of 1992? [18:57] In terms of the split between Matiba and Jaromogi then? [19:08] This was done by Moe. [19:11] Moe was tactical. [19:13] And it might be the same thing in 2027. [19:16] Well, I don't want to... [19:18] That danger is always there, of course. [19:23] Governments will always try to divide people. [19:25] This government can only survive, in my view, if it is able to put a range of division in the opposition ranks. [19:35] And that danger is there. [19:37] And that's why we are saying a key player like the Jaguar needs to do better than he is doing in terms of trying to bring people together. [19:46] Remember, Asimil lost last election by 200,000 votes. [19:50] Yes. [19:52] So those are not a lot of votes. [19:54] And you can lose even with less. [19:56] You can lose even with 50,000. [19:59] You can lose even with 20,000. [20:01] Now, some of these people you are calling small and calling them trees working are the people who could bring you that 50,000 votes or 100,000 votes to make you win. [20:15] So we are telling him he needs to be more mature in how he addresses these things. [20:20] Even as he grows his parties and he feels good about it. [20:23] For instance, you can see now people in Kisi reacting the same and saying they are being not treated well. [20:33] If they moved out tomorrow, how many votes are those? [20:37] They left opposition because of that kind of treatment. [20:40] When you look at the United States... [20:42] When I'm saying that, I'm not saying Jaguar is the one who has the responsibility to bring everyone. [20:46] I'm saying we all have that responsibility. [20:48] Is he the weakest link in the opposition? [20:53] He is not the weakest link. [20:55] He's done a lot of work in terms of promoting the opposition politics. [21:00] I don't want to be unfair to him. [21:03] But he has also very serious weaknesses that we are telling him to address. [21:09] Because, you know, the politics cut both ways. [21:15] You could do very well in terms of opposing the government like he is doing. [21:21] But at the same time, you're also causing havoc in terms of dividing the people. [21:25] So we are just telling him. [21:28] And we have done it. [21:30] He seems to have heard because he has talked. [21:33] The way he has talked. [21:35] We leave eventually or torn down and we'll be able to work together. [21:38] Yeah. [21:38] He has even said, come and work together. [21:40] And I hope he's saying, come and work together in a structured manner. [21:46] Because some of us won't go to Wamunyoru. [21:47] We can't go to somebody's house to discuss national issues and make national decisions. [21:55] We need neutral meeting places where everybody is comfortable. [22:02] Where we can be able to discuss that structure. [22:06] An inclusive structure that allows all the bosses in the opposition to participate in the discussions. [22:12] Then we are able to arrive at one presidential candidate for the coming elections. [22:19] I guess what a lot of critics are saying is that, are we going to be able to get a 2002 moment where Raila said, ki baki tosha. [22:29] Are we going to get that in 27? [22:31] Or will the opposition be so divided that, you know, this is going to be a done deal? [22:39] I don't think the opposition. [22:41] From what I'm hearing and the discussions we are having within the opposition, we have a lot of hope in terms of arriving at one candidate. [22:54] We have a lot of hope. [22:58] What we require is, as I've said, is that ability to speak together. [23:04] And remember that has started with the Asmio coalition coming together and talking to other like-minded parties. [23:13] So the differences are not as big as the impression being created. [23:20] It is possible to talk. [23:22] We can be able to talk. [23:23] He has also said so. [23:25] All we are saying is, let's not let our own individual ambitions blide us to the reality that we need to all work together. [23:34] When I'm saying this, I am not a presidential candidate myself. [23:37] I'm running for the position of Governor Omeru, but I know we need a good government at the national level, even for devolved units to do better. [23:50] Because remember, resources come from the national government. [23:53] So if the national government is not doing well, even counties will not be able to do well. [23:57] So even as we play at the county level, we still require a responsive government at the national level. [24:06] That's why we are working to arrive at that goal. [24:12] Yeah. [24:13] And I would also want to say that I don't have a problem with Gachagu having candidates running for Governor Omeru. [24:22] I have never told him to stop having a candidate. [24:26] He has a candidate. [24:27] He can have candidates everywhere. [24:30] I have never ran an opposed anywhere. [24:35] For the period I've been in leadership, I've never been an opposed. [24:40] So I don't have a problem with that. [24:41] Okay, well, as you want to take a break, come back and talk some more about this Mount Kenya region, East versus West. [24:49] The mountain is becoming quite slippery right now. [24:52] What's the division? [24:53] What can the mountain unite in 2027? [24:57] And also, KC leadership, they're speaking out. [25:03] Yeah, Anthony Kibagendi, you heard the other day, right? [25:05] They're speaking out. [25:06] Just today, actually. [25:07] Just today? [25:07] Yes. [25:08] So I want to talk more about that. [25:10] And also, if Gachagu is listening to you right now, think about what you're going to tell him to his face, right? [25:21] Thank you. [25:21] And don't worry. [25:22] And don't forget, the president is watching all this from afar. [25:25] He's the guy who has the cards. [25:30] He's the chess master, grandmaster. [25:32] So he thinks. [25:34] Peter Munoz in the house, PNU party leader, former cabinet secretary, former governor of Omeru. [25:40] You're running for governor again. [25:41] Yes. [25:42] Oh, breaking news. [25:45] Keep tweeting. [25:45] At Koinanga Jeff, at CitizenTVK, the hashtag is JKLive. [25:50] JKLive takes a break. [25:51] We'll come back, do a little business, a little sports, and back with PNU party leader, Peter Munoz, in a moment.