Interview: Smriti Irani Exclusive On Women's Reservation Bill And Delimitation With Rajdeep Sardesai

[0:00] Remember the numbers. It's now about the numbers. [0:03] 4 p.m. tomorrow, the voting will take place on these contentious bills. [0:08] The numbers at the moment make the Modi government's challenge very clear and difficult [0:13] because these are constitutional amendment bills. [0:15] They require two-thirds present and voting to have them passed. [0:19] The current state of strength of the Lok Sabha is 540 members. [0:23] So, effectively, to pass a constitutional amendment like the Women's Reservation Bill, [0:27] the government will need the support of at least 360 MPs. [0:31] At this point, the NDA has 293 MPs, which is well short of that mark. [0:36] The India Bloc has 234 MPs, making it clear that if the opposition stays united, [0:42] it will be very difficult for the government to get these bills passed. [0:46] So, that is where the state of play is. [0:50] Time now to turn to my newsmakers tonight. [0:53] Okay, my first guest then on the big debate today on women's reservation and delimitation [1:04] is the former women's and child development minister, also BJP leader, Smriti Irani joins us. [1:11] Good to have you on the show, Ms. Irani. [1:13] The big question, the government is saying this is a moment, this is an idea whose time has come. [1:19] The opposition is saying the government is using women's reservation to actually push through delimitation [1:25] and redraw the political map of the country to their advantage. [1:30] This is not about women's reservation. [1:32] This is about redrawing the political map of the country and undermining democracy. [1:37] Your view. [1:39] The question is, when was representation, which is to be assured by parliament, [1:45] to women of this country divorced from the reality of delimitation? [1:48] In 2023, when you were women and child development, you all decided to link women's reservation [1:59] to the next delimitation after the census, which was to take place in 2026. [2:04] In 2023, Mr. Sardesai, even then the question was, when will it be implemented? [2:11] The government's position was post-census, post-delimitation. [2:14] Today, when the opposition was up in arms in 2023, insisting that it get implemented in 2029 [2:23] and wanted an assurance from the government to implement it in 2029, [2:29] why is it that now the opposition wants to walk away from that position? [2:35] The government is ensuring that it is indeed implemented in 2029, [2:41] and hence, to cede to the demand of the opposition to ensure the speedy implementation of 33% [2:48] preservation of women, it is essential that the government's constitutional position today [2:53] be supported by the opposition. [2:55] But didn't you know it in 2023 that the census and the delimitation exercise could take a very [3:01] long time and not meet the 2029 target? [3:04] Suddenly, for three years of doing nothing, then five days before Tamil Nadu and West Bengal [3:09] are going to the polls, government decides a special session. [3:12] So there are questions whether this is politically time to take electoral advantage. [3:17] Again, it's not about women's reservation, it's about political advantage. [3:22] Firstly, Mr. Sardesai, you insult the intelligence of the Indian voters, [3:26] especially in the states that you have mentioned, that they can be so swayed. [3:31] Secondly, there isn't a month in our country where we do not celebrate our democracy [3:35] or do not have some or the other of an election. [3:39] Can you please tell me in the next forthcoming five to ten years, which one quarter of our country [3:47] will never have an election? [3:49] You could have done it in the monsoon session of parliament, after the election, monsoon session [3:54] of parliament, after discussion and consultation. [3:57] What was the hurry, the urgency that we've got to have a special session on the 17th and 16th to 18th of April? [4:04] This could easily be done in the monsoon session. [4:06] Which election is, post which, how many elections are around the corner, Mr. Sardesai? [4:11] Next year in February. [4:15] How many other elections are around the corner? [4:18] Next year in February is the next round of elections. [4:20] What is the guarantee? [4:21] What is the guarantee? [4:23] Then the opposition does not stand up and say, let this election go through. [4:29] Can you give me guarantees on behalf of the opposition? [4:32] I can give you no guarantee, all I'm questioning is the timing and the intent. [4:37] That's what the opposition is questioning, timing and intent. [4:40] Allow me, sir. [4:42] What is the guarantee? [4:43] What is the guarantee that once the census which is underway is completed, [4:48] this very opposition will accept the data that comes forth [4:51] and will not cast aspersions on the data? [4:57] Can you please guarantee me? [4:58] Ma'am, you make the point that can the opposition give any guarantees. [5:03] Let me flip that. [5:04] You're actually raising a point which is important, [5:07] the mistrust between the opposition and the government. [5:10] So here's a simple solution. [5:12] Tomorrow morning, government says, forget delimitation, forget census, [5:15] 543-member parliament, 181 seats are being reserved for women [5:19] and it will be done on 2029. [5:22] Easiest way. [5:23] Why is the government reluctant to do that now? [5:25] Mr. Sardesai, your position is, [5:28] hence the government should absolutely reject constitutional provisions [5:33] your position is, the government should reject constitutional procedures. [5:39] Your position is that the government should reject the maryada of the constitution [5:44] and take the Rajdeep Sardesai formula and help it implement. [5:49] No, this is not a Rajdeep Sardesai formula. [5:51] This is the same formula which in 2010 was used. [5:54] 543 seats, it was passed in the Rajya Sabha, one-third will be for women. [5:58] I'm saying tomorrow morning it will end all the mistrust on both sides. [6:04] How will you redraw constituencies without delimitation? [6:09] You can do it without delimitation. [6:10] And allow women to have. [6:12] That's exactly why, Mr. Sardesai, [6:14] since you do not respect constitutional positions and procedures, [6:19] thank God you're not the Prime Minister of India. [6:21] No, I'm not. [6:22] But I'm asking you a simple question. [6:24] Instead of 850 seats and increasing Parliament, [6:27] in the present Parliament itself, [6:29] what happens if one-third are reserved for women? [6:31] That's the commitment that both sides should show. [6:36] Either I can answer or you can pontificate. [6:39] No, please go ahead. [6:43] The question is this. [6:44] Is there a procedure under which the 33% reservation for women [6:48] is to be implemented? [6:49] Yes. [6:51] Are constituencies to be redrawn through delimitation? [6:54] Yes. [6:54] Is there a data subset that a government needs to depend on? [6:59] Yes. [6:59] Is that data available to the government? [7:02] Yes. [7:03] Is that data being proffered by this government? [7:06] Or is the legacy of the UPA led by the Congress Party? [7:10] So if this government is showing faith in a census [7:17] which was undertaken by a Congress-led government, [7:20] I do not know why then the opposition hankers so. [7:25] The fear is not the census of 2011. [7:29] The real fear, I sense, is delimitation. [7:32] Redrawing of maps. [7:33] You've already seen the southern states saying they will lose out. [7:36] And the fear is of gerrymandering that constituencies [7:39] will be redrawn to favour the government of the day. [7:41] My second question is this. [7:44] Not at all. [7:44] You have the Prime Minister and the Home Minister [7:46] giving assurances on the floor of the House [7:48] and their word has been upheld on the floor of the House [7:53] assuring that no state, no community will be disenfranchised. [8:01] That is a position the government has clearly taken. [8:04] The opposition says, look at Assam and Jammu and Kashmir. [8:08] The constituencies have been redrawn to favour the government. [8:10] Their fear is you want to redraw, I repeat, [8:13] the political map of the country under the guise of women's reservation. [8:18] Mr. Sardesai, their fear is that they are already unpopular. [8:22] There will be opportunities for them to be unpopular even more. [8:27] Can I ask you this, ma'am? [8:30] Not the position of the government. [8:32] Sir, allow me to finish. [8:34] From what I have heard, it is not the position of the government [8:37] that any political party is constrained from fighting from any seat in the country. [8:45] So, is the opposition of the position [8:47] that the delimited status of constituencies today [8:51] has historically favoured the opposition? [8:57] Is the opposition's position today [8:59] that when they were in power, they redrew constituencies [9:04] so that it politically favours them [9:08] and hence is fearful that others will follow suit? [9:13] Spriti Irani, the point, the point, ma'am, Spriti Irani, is I come back to it [9:19] because of the level of mistrust, you need an alternative formula. [9:23] Now, there are two alternatives. [9:24] I am saying existing 543, reserve one third. [9:28] You're saying that's not possible, that's constitutionally not possible. [9:32] But it's very easy. [9:33] It's a very easy, that's the easiest thing to do. [9:36] You'll agree with that? [9:38] Do you agree that's the easiest thing to do? [9:40] But democracy and the constitutional processions [9:42] that the government has to serve [9:44] is not easy. [9:48] It has to be thoughtful and purposeful [9:50] and work within the confines of [9:52] what is the government's constitutional responsibility. [9:56] You talk, Mr. Sardesai, about mistrust [10:03] between the government and the opposition. [10:06] As a citizen, let's answer. [10:09] How can you trust an opposition [10:10] that wanted the government [10:13] to implement 33 present reservation in 2020 [10:16] in 2023 [10:17] but reverses his position in 2026? [10:20] No, but both sides have gone and reversed it. [10:24] You've also said earlier you had agreed [10:26] that it would be the census and delimitation of 2026. [10:29] Now you're going back to 2011. [10:31] So it's not as if only one side [10:33] is reversing its position. [10:34] Let's be very honest about that. [10:36] The fact is that it seems almost [10:38] as if the government wants a quick fix formula. [10:40] Answer this one question of mine. [10:42] Answer this one question of mine. [10:44] Has the government taken a position [10:46] that will not depend on census? [10:50] No. [10:51] Has the government changed its position [10:54] that will not depend on delimitation? [10:56] No. [10:58] And thus my request to you, [11:00] get me a guarantee from the opposition [11:02] that this census which is opposition [11:11] and they will not cast aspersions on any data, [11:14] on any intent of any constitutional body. [11:19] Ma'am. [11:20] Can you give me that guarantee, sir? [11:22] Ma'am, I am no one to give any guarantees [11:24] that is for the leaders of political parties [11:26] to give guarantees. [11:27] Sir, the only guarantee today I have as a female citizen [11:34] is that there is a bill before both the government [11:42] and the opposition in the parliament of India. [11:45] Yes. [11:48] And it is the responsibility of every political party [11:53] to ensure that political equity [11:55] is given to women of this country. [11:58] Yes. [11:58] So, I mean, there are various ways [12:00] in which you can give political equity [12:02] without necessarily having to, [12:04] necessarily having to redraw the political map [12:07] of the country. [12:08] Sir, the only way, [12:09] the only way this will get done, [12:11] yes, sir, please allow me, Mr. Sardesai, [12:14] the only way this will get done [12:15] is through the constitutional way [12:17] so that it can never be challenged [12:19] in the Supreme Court. [12:21] You're offering formulas [12:23] so that there is such a disassociation constitutionally [12:27] so that some Tom Dickin political Harry [12:30] will get up tomorrow [12:31] and challenge that methodology in the Supreme Court. [12:34] What the government is doing today [12:37] is constitutionally proven procedures. [12:44] You know, you're saying that [12:45] that is a constitutionally proven procedure. [12:48] I took you back to 2010 [12:49] when the bill was passed in the Rajasabha, [12:52] one-third of 543 were to be reserved for women. [12:55] Sir, for the bill to be passed, [12:57] sir, since you want me to go back to 2010, [13:00] firstly, tell your viewers [13:01] that without the BJP, [13:02] it could have never passed the Rajasabha. [13:04] Second, I can never have a government [13:07] implement a bill that is only passed in Rajasabha. [13:10] Bills which passed in both [13:12] Lokasabha and Rajasabha are implementable, sir. [13:17] So, I'm saying, [13:18] why don't you want to go back to 2010? [13:20] It's the easiest formula. [13:21] That's all I'm saying. [13:22] Please don't be so dewy-eyed. [13:24] It would only have been practical [13:25] to implement such a proposal [13:27] if it had passed both houses of parliament. [13:29] So, now my question is this. [13:32] Why didn't then the Congress-led UPA [13:35] pass it in Lokasabha where it had the strength [13:36] when it knew that BJP in opposition [13:39] is supporting it in Rajasabha? [13:42] If this was genuinely the intent [13:44] of the opposition? [13:45] Okay. [13:47] Can I... [13:47] Good question, [13:49] which the Congress should answer, [13:50] but can I therefore ask you [13:51] one final question? [13:53] As one of the leading women politicians, [13:56] I saw... [13:56] I was looking at the numbers [13:57] of the last Lokasabha, 2024. [14:00] Your party gave 16, [14:01] won 6% of the seats to women. [14:04] 69 seats. [14:05] The Congress gave 13%. [14:07] Most parties gave single-digit percentages. [14:10] Do you believe that the real problem is [14:12] that we have a male-dominated political system [14:15] that simply still will do all it can [14:17] to resist genuine women's empowerment? [14:20] My answer to that is this, [14:23] that it is a male president [14:24] of the Bharatiya Janata Party [14:25] that passed 33% reservation [14:27] for women within the BJP, [14:30] while a party, [14:31] one of the oldest political organizations [14:33] in the country [14:34] with a female president [14:35] could not manage it. [14:36] Well, they passed 33% reservation [14:38] for panchayats [14:39] when Rajiv Gandhi was prime minister. [14:41] So, they could say [14:42] they started this process. [14:44] In that case, [14:45] in that case, [14:46] sir, [14:46] let me say this. [14:47] They had an historical [14:48] six-decade opportunity. [14:51] Why is it that [14:52] they denied women of this country [14:53] political equity [14:54] for six decades? [14:56] My other thing, [14:57] my other position is this, sir. [15:00] It is a male prime minister today [15:01] who is pushing for this legislation [15:04] so that it's implementable in 2029, [15:08] while we've had a UPA chairperson [15:10] who was female in gender, [15:12] who had the historic opportunity [15:14] of passing it in Lok Sabha [15:15] and did not. [15:17] Okay. [15:18] Smriti Irani, [15:19] combative as ever, [15:20] good to see you [15:21] and thank you very much [15:22] for joining me.