Interview: Mary Robinson's climate change mission — The Stream

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Hello there, you're in the stream, and I'm Femi O'K. How can principles of human rights and justice combat climate change? That's just one of the questions that I will be asking former Irish president, Mary Robinson, in our special show today. If you have more questions and comments, let us know on Twitter and YouTube. Mary Robinson has an auspicious reputation as a stateswoman and a defender of human rights. Now she's focusing on how grassroots activists can tackle climate change. Robinson has a storied career in politics and advocacy. She became Ireland's first woman president in 1990. She served for seven years before her appointment as the UN's High Commissioner for Human Rights. Her efforts were key to placing justice and equality at the very core of the UN's work. Other major UN responsibilities followed, including a year serving as special envoy for the Great Lakes region of Africa, and that was in 2013. More recently, Robinson has focused on tackling climate change. She served as a UN envoy on climate change in 2014, and a UN Special Envoy on El Nino and climate in 2016. She's now merging her commitments to human rights and the environment through the Mary Robinson Foundation Climate Justice. The organization places justice and equity at the heart of responses to climate change. And those values are also at the heart of her new book, Climate Justice, Hope, Resilience, and the Fight for a Sustainable Future. So Mary joins us from Dublin, Ireland, to discuss climate justice and her lifelong commitment to human rights. Mary Robinson, it's so good to have you on the stream. Welcome. [00:02:00] Mary Robinson: Great to be with you, Femi. [00:02:01] Speaker 1: You dedicate your climate justice book to those whose stories of hope and resilience inspired the actual book. I would love you to tell us a story about a Ugandan woman who had the remnants of her house still standing, no roof, and a number of people all staying with her. Because that was one of the moments that prodded you to realize that there was a link between human rights and climate change. [00:02:31] Mary Robinson: Yes, it's very true. I mean, I'm quite humble about it because when I was serving for those five years as the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, I didn't make the connection between human rights and climate change. It was when I was in Africa and meeting people like Constance O'Kellett from a village in Uganda who became a climate-wise woman. She was found, in fact, by Oxfam, and I was Honorary President of Oxfam. And I first met her when I sat on a tribunal with Archbishop Desmond Tutu, and we listened to five farmers from different countries in Africa. And four of those five were women, which makes sense because women do so much of the farming in Africa. And it was Constance when she stood to say, with great dignity, you know, when I was asking, is this a question of farmers always complaining about the weather? And she stood and she said, no, she said, this is outside our experience. And that really struck me. And I wondered, you know, in an African village, how long is that? And I worked it out to myself. If you think of a grandparent talking to a grandchild and that grandchild talks to his or her grandchild, that's probably the best part of 200 years. And so what Constance was saying was, this is so different. And in 2007, a huge flood had destroyed her village, had destroyed school. And she formed a women's group to fight back and become more resilient. And first of all, had to beg for food and then got microcredit, planted trees, began diversity, began teaching, began to learn about climate change and became this voice at various conferences now and a very good friend. We're grandmothers together. We're both grandmothers. [00:04:18] Speaker 1: So on Twitter, lots of comments and questions for you, Mary. Here's one from D Prince. Climate change is a big threat in Africa. It's impacting hard on agriculture products, drought, flood, etc. To mitigate this effect, we need to adopt CSA measures. And the majority of our local farmers lack the basic knowledge of climate change and measure to mitigate its effect. [00:04:44] Mary Robinson: It's very true. And, you know, there is also the gender dimension. It affects women even more. They have to go further for water, further for firewood, have to put food on the table. Maize doesn't do well in extreme drought and so on. So you need the diversity of crops. And so we need far more attention to supporting farmers and in particular, even with land rights, supporting women to be able to become more resilient and to cope. It's amazing what women are doing. And I'm very impressed. But they're not getting enough help. And farming communities are at the front end of the injustice of climate change because those farming communities in Africa that are so affected haven't been responsible. They don't drive cars. They don't have big manufacturing and central heating. In fact, they often don't have access to electricity, which they should have. And that's the upside of what we must do for climate justice, is get off-grid clean cookstoves and solar and other hydro and wind power where it's appropriate so that everybody has access to electricity so they can take themselves out of poverty and cope with the shocks of climate change. [00:05:56] Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about climate change as a man-made problem with a feminist solution. That is pretty radical in terms of where feminism can actually take the world. Can you unpack that a little bit, Mary? [00:06:13] Mary Robinson: That's part of the podcast that I'm doing on Mothers of Invention. And we make it clear that, you know, climate change is a man-made problem, which includes, it's a generic term that includes women. And a feminist solution definitely includes men. In fact, our most recent episode, which we did live in New York during Climate Week at the end of September, included Kumi Naidu, now head of Amnesty International. And he was delighted, as a man, to be talking about the feminist solution. So it's, you know, that's the way we approach it. But we listen to mostly women from different countries, from different walks of life, incredible stories of what they're doing, either coping in the way that Constance O'Kelit was coping in her village in Uganda, or inventing, inventing digestible cups, first of all, and then straws to get rid of plastic straws. Two young women in the United States are developing plastic straws that are edible to avoid the plastic. We have an enormous range of women from various parts of the world who are showing their inventiveness, their entrepreneurial spirit, but also their commitment to climate justice. And, you know, the Black Lives Matter, a young Black Lives Matter person, who is also a woman who's working also on environmental issues, impressed me greatly. [00:07:44] Speaker 1: I want to show our audience and play our audience a little bit of your podcast series. It's one to six. And this is a little excerpt from episode one, where there's a very young climate change warrior, climate action warrior, who's deciding to take some action in the United States. Have a listen. [00:08:03] Speaker 3: My name is Kelsey Cascadia Rose Giuliana. I'm 22 years old. I live in Eugene, Oregon. And when I was 14 years old, I co-filed a lawsuit against the governor of Oregon. Then when I was 19 years old, I sued the federal government. There's 21 young people from across this nation who feel strongly enough that, yes, this issue of climate devastation is important to them. Yes, they're feeling the harms right now from climate change. And yes, they want to represent their voices, but also their peers' voices and future generations' voices in front of government through the courts. [00:08:42] Speaker 1: So Agatha says on Twitter about the podcast, I love the dynamic between Mary and Maeve Higgins and how Mary's long career is shared so honestly, providing both a learning experience and a source of inspiration for Maeve and the audience and how they approach the climate change issue from different angles and profiles different climate warriors. So this is an accessible way to get into the whole issue of climate action and climate justice. You also have a barometer, Mary, which you use with taxi drivers as you're driving around your home, which is what? What is that taxi driver barometer that you use? [00:09:22] Mary Robinson: Well, you know, 10 years ago, taxi drivers were the most sceptical in Dublin and they do talk a lot and they know everything or they think they know everything and they knew everything that denied climate change. They have completely turned around. They are now very strong advocates for Ireland doing more. Our country is not doing enough on climate change. They want electric cars. They want hybrids at least. And, you know, they're a real voice now, which is good. The case that you, the clip that you just did from the Mothers of Invention is a very, very important case, the Children's Trust case. It's coming to hearing in the court in Oregon this month against the federal government that the federal government is not protecting people from climate change. This could be an extraordinarily important case. And it's only one example of what I've learned from those that were interviewing on the programme. But of course, Maeve keeps these very funny remarks. We were talking, for example, about waste and the fact on the series on plastics that countries of the West have sent their waste to countries like China and China is refusing to take the waste now from developing countries. And Catherine Wilkinson, an expert, was talking on the programme and she said, you know, it's not even recycled waste. It's often dirty nappies. And then Maeve starts to rant about the responsibility of babies for these dirty nappies. And we all roar laughing. And, you know, I like that because, you know, humour is important. And I think young people, you know, are very able to take their serious points with a lot of humour, which is really good. [00:11:01] Speaker 1: I want to introduce you, Mary, to another young person. Her name is Mahendra and she is a climate warrior for an organisation in Peru called Tierra Activa Peru. She tweets, first of all, that the key to climate justice and gender justice in Peru, understanding the feminisation of the countryside where women stay to work the land while men migrate to cities to work, increasing both women's exposure to natural disasters and constraining their financial capacity to respond. So much in that tweet. And then she has this to ask you, Mary. Have a listen. [00:11:35] Speaker 4: My name is Mahendra Rodriguez and I'm from Lima, Peru. I think one of the biggest challenges that we're facing now is well summarised by the most recent IPCC report, which states that we need to peak global emissions rapidly and drastically. My question for you would be, as a former head of state, what strategies do you think are most feasible in this current political context to make those changes happen? We know change needs to be from the bottom up, but there also needs to be clear-cut action taken from the top down. Thank you. [00:12:06] Mary Robinson: So, Mary. Thank you for such an important question. I agree with you about the importance of that report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change telling us what staying at 1.5 degrees of warming means for the world and the difference between 1.5 degrees and 2 degrees. And that's really important that we understand that 2 degrees is the outer limit of dangerous and that we must stay at 1.5 degrees to have a safe world. That means, as you said, we have to reduce the emissions by 45% by 2030, which is less than 12 years away. And we need a carbon price globally on carbon so that people move away from carbon towards clean energy. We need to remove all the subsidies on fossil fuel. We need to have incentives to move to clean energy. And, you know, top down, the laws of governments matter a great deal, but also bottom up. If people begin to take it seriously in their own lives, then they'll begin to put pressure on governments. They'll use their voice and their vote and their pressure to make sure that governments are much, much more ambitious. The small island states and the least developed countries are the most ambitious now. For example, the Marshall Islands has said it will be carbon neutral, zero carbon emissions by 2050. We're trying to get the European Union to make a similar commitment. I mean, the European Union is rich, rich countries. They should be making that commitment now. And I think this is the pressure that we need. [00:13:37] Speaker 1: Mary, I'm hearing climate optimism from you, but online I'm seeing some climate scepticism. Let me share this with you. Mark McCaw, climate change is the greatest threat to humanity ever. I do not believe governments will act. And if so, it will be far too little, far too late. One more from Thelma Young. There's a new kind of climate denial. World leaders like Justin Trudeau recognise that climate change exists, but then still approve pipelines. How do we push world leaders to do what is necessary? [00:14:10] Mary Robinson: I think, you know, governments are not at the moment doing enough. There's no doubt about that. So we're not on course for a safe world. And that's serious. And that's why we need a really urgent conversation at all levels about this. And we need governments to step up more to the plate and to do what is necessary. We're going to have the climate conference in Poland, in Katowice, very shortly. I hope that governments will take things more seriously. What I'm hearing, which is quite encouraging, is that the business that is not fossil fuel business is beginning to really understand, because they plan a bit more long term than the election cycle of many governments, which is two, three or five years, and then you're fighting the next election, and that's your focus. But business is planning ahead, and they're seeing that this is not going to be a safe world unless the emissions are reduced. And I'm seeing more and more businesses that are not fossil fuel committing to net zero greenhouse gas emissions in their companies and in their supply chain by 2050. And we must encourage that. It needs business. It needs cities. It needs governments. It needs states that are below the government level, local governments, regional governments. But it also needs civil society to call for and absolutely insist on a safe world for our children and grandchildren. That's what we're talking about. [00:15:36] Speaker 1: Mary, it's fascinating watching you now because you are so well versed on climate action, climate change, the science, the human rights angle of it. You have all of that down. And I'm currently looking at a picture of you, which is a campaign picture from 1990. Mary Robinson, a president with a purpose. You barely look different between that time and right now. But the purpose back in 1990, Mary, what was it that you wanted to do as an independent politician? [00:16:11] Mary Robinson: The purpose was to open up Irish society, which was very dominated by the Catholic Church in a kind of old fashioned way. Our laws reflected that, etc. And I felt not least if we were to open up to Northern Ireland, but open up to the world. And then we must amend our laws. We must amend our laws, remove the ban on divorce and legalize family planning and remove the stigma of criminality on people who are gay. And the first measure that I actually took in 1971 was to legalize family planning. And I learned a big lesson for me. I got very bad, you know, hate letters and pressure. And I learned that if you really believe in something, you must be prepared to pay a price. You must be prepared to be unpopular for a while in order to, you know, do something that might be difficult at a particular point in time. I think governments now have to learn to be unpopular in certain measures in order to get us out of this real problem that we're in with climate change. We've got to take hard decisions now because they'll be so much harder in a few years' time. And we won't have that window of time that we have at the moment, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. We have that time before 2030 that we must take hard decisions and put a strong price on carbon. That drives up the price of diesel and gas and oil, etc. Therefore, families that are poor must be protected from that. But the rest of us must bear the brunt of it so that we get a safe world. That's a hard decision, and we have to be prepared to take these hard decisions. [00:17:48] Speaker 1: Jean-Marc, who's probably listening to you right now, wish she could run for president again. Mary, when you said unpopular, I think you kind of glossed over what you meant by unpopular. There was hate mail and a lot of hate mail. [00:18:03] Mary Robinson: Yes, and even denounced from the pulpit in Catholic churches, and I'm from a Catholic background, it was a great pain for my parents who were very paid-up Catholics. And, you know, at the time I was very young. I was 25, 26, 27. And Nick, my husband, we were married in December 1970. He burned all the hate letters. And now we regret that because that's part of kind of a social record. We believe in archival material, but actually some of it was burned because I was so affected by it. But I learned, you know, to become tougher and to develop this scar tissue in order to be able to move forward and just believe in something, not arrogantly, but if you know that something has to be done, then pay a price for it, but go ahead. [00:18:55] Speaker 1: Wow, you're not of this time, Mary. I think that we should be able to dip into some of your colleagues, your climate warriors. Christiana Figueres is part of the architect of the Paris Climate Agreement. And that agreement was the members of the United Nations saying, it is about time we need to take climate action, and this is what we're going to do by 2020. So that is Christiana. She also happens to be a friend of Mary Robinson. As a friend, Mary, she asks you this. [00:19:29] Speaker 5: Dear Mary, one of the things that I love about you, one of the many things I love about you, is how often you have encouraged and even incited young people to all types of rebellion. Where does that feistness come from inside of you? [00:19:44] Mary Robinson: Oh, that's easy to answer, Christiana. I grew up in the west of Ireland as the only girl among four brothers, too older than me and too younger than me. So, of course, I had to have an early interest in human rights and gender equality and even using my elbows. But, you know, and I had parents who told me that I had the same opportunities as those brothers, even though the wider Irish society wasn't telling me that. It was telling me, you know, that boys were going to be altar boys, they were going to be priests, they were going to be important in society, they were going to be decision makers, etc. And girls had so many handicaps. But, Christiana, you've been a wonderful champion of what we need to do on climate. I love your mission 2020. I love the optimism that you've always had. I actually am influenced by Desmond Tutu when I was on a panel with him in New York, and he taught me a lesson when he was accused by a journalist of being, why are you so optimistic? And he replied, oh, no, I'm not an optimist. I'm a prisoner of hope. And that, for me, was a really important lesson. Because if you're a prisoner of hope, you've got to see maybe the glass isn't half full. There's only a little bit in it. But whatever is in the glass, you work on it. You make sure that you are actively making a difference, fighting back, becoming more resilient, arguing for change, warning about the possibility that we're not on course for a safe world, all of that. [00:21:14] Speaker 1: Elizabeth Susans basically says what you were just talking about. She remembers that quote from Archbishop Desmond Tutu, to be a prisoner of hope. And then as we were chatting to her, she wondered whether you have this attitude of fortitude in adversity. I'm too young to remember the war, but perhaps it was a little of what those brave people had, that you still, you're not a climate skeptic. You think that climate action, climate justice is still very much possible. Where does that come from? [00:21:50] Mary Robinson: I think I was very influenced. Even during my five years when I served as High Commissioner for Human Rights, I used to go to the places where there were the worst violations of human rights, to the Democratic Republic of Congo, to Chechnya, to Colombia, when Colombia, Bogota, was a terrible place for human rights defenders. And human rights defenders were teachers, trade unionists, ordinary people defending their human rights, and the courage of ordinary people, and the importance that they placed on rights. And now we hear a lot about the shrinking of civil society space, that people have less room, that if you speak out against a government, you can be branded a terrorist, even though you have no idea of violence or terrorism, but you can be called that, because that's what happens now. And we have to understand that this is a bumpy time. We have autocratic leaders, we have a populism, we have a nationalism that's very centered on countries rather than solidarity of a more global sort. And all of this means we have to struggle, and that's the lesson I learned. Human rights is a struggle, it doesn't always go smoothly forward, but you have to keep fighting for what is right and what is true, and what is important to people. And people all over the world want their human rights, they want to be free, they want to have freedom of expression, they want the space to develop and have a fairness in their society. And these are things really worth fighting for, human dignity and human rights. [00:23:20] Speaker 1: I want to just squeeze in Jamie Moore, he is a UN youth envoy. Have a quick listen to him, Mary. [00:23:26] Speaker 6: Hi, my name is Jamie Moore and I am a UN Youth Delegate for Ireland. My question is, how can we make it a priority for governments to develop meaningful youth participation structures at all levels of democracy, especially for those who are more seldom heard, in an effort to make human rights, global issues and development education more relevant to today's young people and future generations. [00:23:51] Speaker 1: Mary, just a 30-second answer right at the end of the show. [00:23:55] Mary Robinson: I love, yeah, I actually love that voice because young people have such ability, such knowledge of what the solutions are. They are the leaders of now, not of the future, of now. Let's give them the opportunity, let's make space for them, let's hear those voices, let's make them part of the decision making. I'm all for that. [00:24:17] Speaker 1: I'm going to end with a final tweet before I thank you, Mary Robinson. This is Alive Hedon, who says on Twitter, she just sent this to us, she says, Mary Robinson, seeing you in my early childhood, leave the country as the first woman to do so and then advocate for human rights globally, made me never question what I could do as a young Irish woman, including what I do today, working with the United Nations in South Sudan. Mary Robinson, it's been a pleasure having you on the stream. Thank you so much. Thank you. [00:25:12] Speaker ?: Thank you.