Is the AfD a threat to Germany? Mehdi Hasan & Maximilian Krah — Head to Head

[0:00] Germany has a new political powerhouse. [0:10] The Alternative for Deutschland, or AFD, is now the second largest party in parliament [0:15] and is currently polling first nationally. [0:21] Formed in 2013, the AFD began as a Euroskeptic movement, but on the back of Europe's refugee [0:26] crisis it morphed into a hardline anti-immigration party. [0:31] Its critics say it is a far-right extremist party with ties to neo-Nazi groups and policies [0:36] that threaten the German constitution. [0:40] Mainstream German politicians are refusing to work with them so far. [0:46] But the AFD say that they are the only party that can save Germany and restore its cultural [0:51] identity through strict immigration controls and mass deportations. [0:58] My guest tonight is one of the AFD's most controversial and well-known figures. [1:02] He was a member of the European Parliament and the party's executive board, but was sidelined [1:07] after a series of controversies. [1:08] In 2025, he became an AFD member of the German parliament. [1:14] I'm Mehdi Hassan, and tonight I go head-to-head with Maximilian Krah. [1:18] I'll challenge him on the AFD's re-migration agenda, its far-right rhetoric, and some shocking [1:24] bribery allegations. [1:25] Tonight, I'll also be joined by our panel of experts, Deborah Feldman, a German-American [1:33] writer and political commentator, Gerald Knauss, chairman of the think-tank European Stability [1:38] Initiative, and Ralph Schulhammer, head of the Center for Applied History at the conservative [1:43] think-tank, the MCC. [1:43] Welcome to Head to Head. [2:05] Maximilian Krah, thank you for joining me on the show tonight. [2:07] Thank you for inviting me. [2:08] For many years, we've wondered whether we should have the AFD on this show. [2:14] You're top of the polls, but you're also considered to be an extremist party. [2:19] That is the view, for example, of Germany's domestic intelligence agency, the BFV, which [2:24] last year classified your party as a right-wing extremist organization, a designation that [2:29] admittedly is on hold, it's on pause, while your party contests it in court. [2:33] But three of your state party chapters were also classified as extremist, your youth wing [2:38] has since been disbanded. [2:40] So when your critics say the AFD is an extremist organization, a racist far-right threat to [2:45] German democracy, they're not wrong, are they, based on the evidence? [2:48] They are, because the question is, are they completely objective or are they politically [2:55] instrumentalized? [2:56] The intelligence get their orders from the Minister of Interior, and now look, we came and now [3:01] we are the strongest party in the polls. [3:03] We are, in East Germany, close to 50%. [3:06] So our success costs a lot of jobs for established politicians, and now you have two ways. [3:12] You can argue with us, like we do today, so we can debate, or you can just say they are [3:18] extremists, shut them up. [3:19] A poll came out last month from ZDF, a very respected poll, found 72% of Germans say the [3:24] AFD is a danger to democracy. [3:26] True. [3:27] That's 7 out of 10 Germans think your party is a danger to democracy. [3:31] We have to work. [3:32] We have to work and convince people that we are not. [3:34] But if the mainstream media is telling the audience that we are a danger for years and [3:40] years, then of course some people believe that. [3:42] Well, it's not just the mainstream media. [3:44] Germans' Domestic Intelligence Agency is saying it. [3:46] And you're saying they're biased. [3:47] Yes, they are biased. [3:48] But that's weird because when they were criticising Muslim groups for being extremists, you cited [3:54] them in your manifesto in 2017. [3:55] You were fine to quote them. [3:56] Yeah, but sometimes we read what they write and then we say, okay, this is maybe biased [4:01] and this is not biased. [4:02] Oh, the bit that's anti-you is biased and the bit that's anti-Muslim is not biased. [4:06] It's a question of analysing. [4:08] They take the facts and then they make an interpretation. [4:11] And what they interpret as extremists in our case is a standard for politicians outside. [4:17] So, I mean, look, we have in Austria the Freedom Party that in some parts is more to the right [4:23] wing than we are. [4:24] And we don't talk about Donald Trump. [4:26] But given the standards of the German Domestic Intelligence and taken to Donald Trump, I mean, [4:33] he would be much more than extremists. [4:35] Do you think Donald Trump is to your right? [4:37] We are very close to Donald Trump, but… [4:39] You've called yourself the German Donald Trump. [4:40] I didn't call… [4:41] Others called me that way. [4:42] And I think it's flattering. [4:43] I think you introduced yourself to a journalist from The Spectator in that way. [4:47] There are many watching today who will say that you, the German Donald Trump, are yourself [4:52] an extremist. [4:53] In the German intelligence agency's report on the AFD, you were cited hundreds of times [4:58] by name. [4:59] They said your view of humanity is incompatible with the German constitution. [5:03] You are also famously on record saying, quote, not all members of the Nazi SS were criminals. [5:10] It's so outrageous that even your own party, they kicked you out of their parliamentary [5:14] delegation. [5:15] That's not completely right. [5:16] Well, Marine Le Pen, the French far-right leader said, that's too much even for me. [5:21] And they cut off ties with you. [5:22] That is a simplification. [5:23] Marine Le Pen always wanted to kick the AFD out of her group for several traditional reasons. [5:28] The French right has with Germany. [5:30] And they needed a reason or they needed something they could sell to the press. [5:35] Are you defending the SS? [5:36] No, I never defended. [5:37] There was a lady and she told me, Mr. Carr, you said we should be proud of our ancestors. [5:43] Now my grandfather was an SS soldier. [5:48] What do you say to me? [5:49] And then I asked, have you checked the case? [5:51] Was he a criminal? [5:53] Only from the given fact that he was a member, I will not tell you that he was a criminal. [5:59] And I mean, this is the praxis that even the Allied forces during World War II made for [6:04] those cases. [6:05] So when they captured an SS soldier, they asked, are you? [6:08] The SS to be a criminal organization, as you know. [6:09] Yeah, but the SS is a criminal organization, but not each and every one. [6:13] You have to check, is he guilty? [6:15] Is he a criminal? [6:16] I never denied one German crime during the World War. [6:20] But I say, even then, you have to check personal guilt. [6:23] Look who sits with you in the German parliament right now, Matthias Helfrich, who called himself [6:28] the friendly face of Nazism, Dario Seifert. [6:32] He was a former member of a neo-Nazi group that's blacklisted by the AFD. [6:35] Is he a member of the parliament or is an employee? [6:38] Dario Seifert. [6:39] He should be my colleague. [6:40] I've never heard the name before. [6:41] He's a member of the Bundestag. [6:43] Okay. [6:44] He actually took Angela Merkel's seat in parliament, so people know him quite well. [6:47] It's weird. [6:48] That's the guy. [6:49] Yes. [6:50] That's the guy. [6:51] The former neo-Nazi group member. [6:53] Then there's Bjorn Hooker, one of your party's most influential figures, the AFD leader in [6:57] Thuringia, twice convicted in a German court for using the banned Nazi slogan, everything [7:03] for Germany, which was the motto of Hitler's stormtroopers. [7:06] Good. [7:07] He said it twice. [7:08] And then he said, it's wrong to portray Hitler as, quote, absolutely evil. [7:12] There do seem to be a lot of Nazi sympathizers in your party. [7:14] No, but let's say, I mean, the audience can decide it. [7:17] If I would say everything for the United Kingdom, then you would say, okay, it's a patriotic [7:21] phrase. [7:22] I was always interested in history. [7:24] I didn't know that this was a special Nazi slogan. [7:27] And he said... [7:28] He did. [7:29] He's a history teacher. [7:30] Maybe. [7:31] I would say we have a problem with free speech. [7:32] The phrase everything for Germany was used much, but often much before... [7:35] But is this a free speech issue? [7:36] Or is this the issue that there's a lot of people in your party who like to play footsie [7:40] with Nazis or with the Nazi period of history? [7:42] Maybe it sounds that way, but it's not the fact. [7:44] I wouldn't say that this is typical. [7:46] Look, we talk about immigration. [7:47] We talk about demographics. [7:50] We talk about economic development. [7:52] And then, okay, the party is now more than 10 years old, and you will find such examples, [7:57] which I don't like. [7:59] Those are bad examples. [8:01] But you cannot judge a party by such isolated facts. [8:04] You have to make a whole... [8:05] Isolated? [8:06] I mentioned two members of parliament, one of whom you conveniently hadn't heard of, [8:09] and the most influential state leader of your party, Björnir. [8:11] No, no, no, not the most influential. [8:12] Come on. [8:13] And Kenya is a very small state. [8:15] He is seen as one of the most influential... [8:16] In fact... [8:17] He sees himself... [8:18] In fact, Alice Weidel was asked, would you make him a minister? [8:21] And she said, yes. [8:22] So we're looking at a future government minister as well, saying this stuff. [8:24] I tell you that he will not become part of the government. [8:28] How do you know that? [8:29] Alice Weidel said she could be. [8:31] He said she can imagine, but what shall you do? [8:34] Imagine you're on a TV studio and they ask you after a member of your own party. [8:39] Then you don't begin to split your own party. [8:41] One of the biggest criticisms of your party's platform is the focus on what's called remigration, [8:45] of getting rid of immigrants, which is a far-right concept coined by an Austrian extremist ally [8:51] of your party who once stuck a swastika on a synagogue. [8:55] It was in your party manifesto, the word remigration, last year. [8:58] You have recently distanced yourself from it, I believe, having once been a champion of it. [9:02] No, I've never been a champion of it. [9:03] I have made clear that I don't like the concept. [9:06] The concept is completely unacceptable. [9:08] My own wife is from Slovakia, so she is an immigrant. [9:12] So you cannot tell me that I want to re-migrate my wife. [9:15] I'm sorry, that's not the way it works. [9:16] The fact that your wife is an immigrant from Slovakia doesn't mean you didn't write a book about remigration. [9:21] I never wrote a book about remigration. [9:23] I wrote a book on what it means to be right-wing, contemporary right-wing. [9:27] The book on remigration was written by an Austrian, Mr. Zellner. [9:31] He came up with the concept and you endorsed it and pushed it. [9:35] I just watched an interview with you this afternoon where you talked to the interviewer, [9:38] 2023 interview, only three years ago. [9:40] You said we should do it. [9:41] We could give the right incentives. [9:43] We should be doing remigration. [9:44] Yeah, but not to people who are nationalized. [9:47] Of course, we have, look, Germany has the second largest number of refugees worldwide after Colombia. [9:54] Of course, we have to take care that a large number of those people who came, [9:59] who have not integrated in society, don't speak the language, that they go back into their home countries when the war is over. [10:05] You said this is about finding a path to raise the patriotic consciousness of the indigenous population again, [10:10] and to motivate migrants, this is 2023, to either assimilate or re-migrate. [10:14] That's Politics from the Right, a book you wrote in 2023. [10:17] In Germany, there are two meanings of the word remigration. [10:20] You are right, there is one which is given by Mr. Zellner. [10:23] And I clearly... [10:24] And he's an ally of your party? [10:25] No, no, no. [10:26] I clearly distanced. [10:27] It's not even allowed to members of parliament from our party to have joint events with him. [10:33] Hold on, hold on. [10:34] Why were three members of your party at an event with him last month in Porto? [10:37] And we will clear that with them and we'll make them clear that this is not okay. [10:41] True. [10:43] We made very clear that we don't allow joint events with Mr. Zellner in public. [10:48] You used to do events with him? [10:50] I met him from a publishing house. [10:53] They had a big event. [10:54] Well, he was a guest and I was a guest. [10:56] But look, I meet so many people. [10:58] And of course there are groups that vote us and they follow his movement. [11:02] What is your definition of remigration? [11:04] Remigration is the sum of all legal ways to bring people out of the country who don't have the right to stay there. [11:13] So if you have criminals, they have to leave. [11:15] If you have people who live only from welfare and don't want to work, they should leave. [11:20] But that's not remigration. [11:21] Deporting criminals is what the Labour government does in this country. [11:24] That's not controversial. [11:25] This is not controversial because the official definition of our party, what we as a party understand by remigration was now judged by the German administrative court. [11:35] And they said in the way the AFD is using the word remigration, there is no problem with the constitution. [11:41] This is why this extremism thing is now on hold. [11:45] Because we have another, we have another. [11:48] As we mentioned earlier, one of your leading AFD leaders. [11:51] Who? [11:52] He said, Bjornhukke. [11:53] He's not leading. [11:54] He's not even in the executive board. [11:55] He's the leader of your party in a German state. [11:57] He said, without problem, we would also without problem be able to live with 20 to 30% fewer people in Germany. [12:04] How do you get to 20 to 30% fewer people in Germany without deporting German citizens? [12:07] I don't know. [12:08] He's a sports teacher, not a math teacher. [12:09] Ask him. [12:11] I'm asking you. [12:12] Do you accept that deporting 20 to 30% of the German public? [12:15] Look, once again, I don't know about his calculation. [12:18] And this is not what is written in our manifesto. [12:21] In our manifesto, it's very clear. [12:22] Remigration is the sum of all legally possible ways. [12:25] Remigration is a far-right concept that talks about deporting outside Germany. [12:29] Citizens who are not assimilated. [12:31] That is how Martin Selder defined it. [12:33] You can try and redefine it for this audience, but that's what it means. [12:36] That's why it's always been a far-right term. [12:38] It is Mr. Selder's definition, which is used here in Great Britain. [12:42] In Germany, we have Mr. Selder's definition, and we have a definition in our manifesto. [12:46] And this is why I advise my party not to use this word. [12:50] Yeah, that's interesting. [12:51] You say that. [12:52] You advised your party not to use the word, not because you don't believe in it, [12:55] but because you know you'll get banned if you use it. [12:57] It sounds pretty cynical. [12:59] We have more and more migrants in Germany who vote AFD. [13:02] And I'm the champion. [13:03] I made a lot of videos in which I made clear, especially the Turkish community should vote AFD. [13:09] The former Soviet community is already with us. [13:12] Okay, so let's talk about those immigrants. [13:13] Why does your party leader, Alice Weidel, distinguish between Germans and passport Germans, she says. [13:20] People who acquired German citizenship weren't born with it. [13:23] Will there be two classes? [13:25] How many years ago? [13:26] Will there be two classes? [13:27] How many years ago? [13:28] She said it in 2019. [13:29] Yeah, this is seven years ago. [13:30] Never since. [13:31] Never since. [13:32] Let me finish. [13:33] Then in August 2025, last year, she was asked about it and she defended the use of passport Germans in an interview with Welt. [13:40] Okay. [13:41] So I only know the old thing. [13:43] Okay, Mrs. Weidel, her wife is from Sri Lanka. [13:47] Yeah. [13:48] You will really tell me that the party leader who has a wife from Sri Lanka has a racist view on the world? [13:55] I mean, come on, that's . [13:56] When you have a wife from Sri Lanka who looks like Sri Lanka, then you are not a racist. [14:01] Okay. [14:02] It's obvious. [14:03] That's what you think racism comes down to. [14:05] Yeah, but I mean. [14:06] Whether you have friends or family who are non-white. [14:08] It's obvious. [14:09] Really? [14:10] This is the way, I mean, this is the typical accusations we are fighting against. [14:12] Maximilian, it's 2026. [14:13] Why did you say last year the equality of citizens based solely on a piece of paper that one holds is the founding myth of the modern state? [14:20] Because it is the way. [14:22] The modern state says that every. [14:24] There's not an equality between a Turkish-German. [14:26] It's a complete equality. [14:27] The myth or the basis of the modern state is that every citizen is equal. [14:32] Maximilian, this is what you said in 2023. [14:34] When we talk about the people, das Volk, we are talking about a community of similars. [14:38] When we talk about the people, it's far more than a political or legal category. [14:41] It is a natural, biological, verifiable reality. [14:46] The German language has a problem. [14:48] Das Volk means both the ethnic group and the citizenship. [14:52] Why did you say it is not a social contract? [14:54] It is something that is in the genes. [14:56] In the ethnic group? [14:57] Do you understand why people worry when German politicians start talking about the genes? [15:01] Yeah, we are not Sidney Sweeney. [15:04] But the point is, the point is very easy. [15:08] You have ethnic group and you have the citizenship. [15:10] You mentioned a lot of migrants are voting for the AFD. [15:12] Let's talk about Muslim Germans, a lot of Muslims in Germany. [15:14] Turks, for instance. [15:15] You have said that Islam belongs in Saudi Arabia, not Germany. [15:18] And the 2026 manifesto for the state of Saxony-Arnhalt, this year's big election, [15:23] calls Islam a culturally alien religion. [15:26] Islam does not belong to Germany. [15:29] You know who used similar rhetoric about a religious minority in Germany back in the 1930s? [15:33] Please don't bring now Hitler. [15:34] Why? [15:35] Everyone wants to bring Hitler when there is a problem in Germany. [15:37] Why? [15:38] It sounds to me like exactly how the Nazis spoke about Jews. [15:40] No. [15:41] I can point it to you if you want. [15:42] I say Turkish Germans shall vote for AFD. [15:45] I mean what religion usually Turks have. [15:46] The Jews are not German. [15:48] They are an alien people in our midst. [15:50] That was Hitler's words. [15:51] How is that different to the AFD manifesto? [15:53] Islam is a culturally alien religion, does not belong to Germany. [15:56] Where is it from? [15:57] Is it at the state level? [15:58] It is the Saxony-Arnhalt manifesto for this year from the AFD. [16:01] Are you going to disown this as well? [16:03] But this year is no election in Saxony. [16:05] This is the 2026 manifesto. [16:07] I'm reading from it now. [16:08] My constituency is in Saxony. [16:10] I should know my manifesto and I know that there is no election this year. [16:14] Saxony-Arnhalt election, September 2026. [16:17] Saxony-Arnhalt. [16:18] This is another... [16:19] Okay. [16:20] I think everyone here heard me say Saxony-Arnhalt multiple times. [16:23] I'm sorry. [16:24] We have many states in Germany and I'm not able to... [16:27] Can we focus on the issue here? [16:28] Hitler said the Jews were not part of Germany. [16:30] They were alien religion. [16:31] This is what the AFD is saying about Muslims today. [16:33] Not really. [16:34] The point is we invite every German citizen to be part of this. [16:38] We have meanwhile an organization that is called Migrants Within the AFD, [16:43] which are very influential. [16:45] Did the Kurds say, okay, we are not an extremist party anymore? [16:51] Of course, our critics always bring points, even mistakes we made. [16:57] The critics did not write your manifesto, Maximilian. [17:00] The AFD wrote this manifesto saying Islam does not belong in Germany. [17:04] Do you agree with that sentence that Islam does not belong in Germany? [17:07] The manifesto was written by a scholar who speaks fluent Arabic, [17:12] has a highly appreciation of Islamic culture and Islamic people. [17:16] I think you need to understand that it doesn't matter whether you have Muslim friends [17:18] or you're married to Sri Lankans, racism is racism. [17:21] These statements are racist. [17:22] Let's go to our panel here who are waiting patiently. [17:25] I'm joined by Gerald Knauss, chairman of the Berlin-based think tank, [17:29] the European Stability Initiative. [17:30] You heard us talking a lot about re-migration. [17:32] Maximilian says we've misunderstood it all. [17:34] It just means deporting criminals. [17:36] What's your response to that? [17:37] If the AFD is found to use Martin Sellner's term, re-migration, [17:43] it can be brought to the constitutional court and be closed down. [17:46] So it's very important for the AFD in its manifesto to write exactly the words [17:51] that they were advised by lawyers. [17:53] Maximilian Kran knows, as a lawyer, how dangerous it is for the AFD. [17:57] So he's warned about it. [18:00] Since January this year, AFD has continuously met Martin Sellner, [18:03] inviting him to Thuringia to the Landtag. [18:06] Björn Höcke, whose party really this has become, [18:09] Alice Weidel tried to kick him out once, she was unable. [18:12] His party in Thuringia has invited Martin Sellner. [18:15] Martin Sellner has made events in Brandenburg, [18:17] where another AFD, active politician, [18:20] who's just been also in Portugal, [18:22] has said Germany would do well with 20 million less people. [18:25] And what the party in Sachsen-Anhalt is saying here [18:28] is based on the most toxic myth in German, European and Western politics today. [18:34] The idea that there is a great replacement that needs to be reversed [18:37] because it's an existential threat. [18:39] I've lived in the Balkans in the 1990s. [18:41] I've lived in Sarajevo. [18:42] I've seen after the Cold War in Europe, [18:45] how these kinds of ideas have led to ethnic cleansing, expulsions, [18:49] and in the end, the genocide in Srebrenica. [18:52] And when political parties talk like this, [18:54] we need to be very, very careful because it's serious. [18:57] Before I let Maximilian come back in, [18:59] let me bring in some other panelists here. [19:00] I'm also joined by Ralph Schulhammer, [19:02] head of the Center for Applied History at the MCC, [19:04] a conservative think tank in Budapest. [19:06] Ralph, what's your response to what you heard from Gerald [19:09] and from Maximilian about remigration, ethnic cleansing, [19:12] Islamophobia in Saxony-Anhalt? [19:14] I mean, I can give you easily, easily a handful of quotes [19:18] from the National Socialist Economic Program, [19:21] and you will find people on the American and European left [19:23] and also on the right who would agree with it. [19:25] But it's a little bit of a gotcha game. [19:27] But secondly, the term remigration was coined [19:29] as the description of Jews after World War II [19:32] going back to the countries they fled from. [19:33] That is the historic origin of the term. [19:35] And by the way, remigration is happening as we speak. [19:38] Germany is now the country with the second largest refugee population. [19:41] The reason why it's no longer Iran and Turkey, [19:43] that they no longer have a larger population than Germany, [19:46] is because people are leaving Iran back to Afghanistan, 2.2 million, [19:50] and people are leaving Turkey back to Syria. [19:52] Do you believe that German citizens should be quote-unquote remigrated? [19:55] No, but when Alice Weil speaks about passport Germans, [19:58] I think we have to keep in mind how did naturalization laws change [20:01] in Germany over the last couple of years. [20:03] There was a term not coined by me by the German government, [20:06] so-called turbonaturalization. [20:08] So they created quotas. [20:10] I think in Berlin it was 40,000. [20:12] That is it. [20:13] 40,000 people every year need to get citizenship. [20:15] So this was no longer tied to people integrate, [20:17] they learn the language, they become part of society, [20:20] that we need to meet a number. [20:21] Therefore they have to become citizens. [20:23] They're always shaking his head. [20:24] Is that correct, incorrect? [20:25] Do you agree? [20:26] Well, no, it's incorrect. [20:28] The German law is very clear. [20:30] The turbonaturalization of citizenship was for some people extremely qualified, [20:36] the Japanese or the Indian engineer who is in the country and who after three years should get it. [20:40] Very few people got it. [20:41] What we have in Germany is a system where after five years and a lot of refugees came more than five years ago. [20:47] There are some conditions as well. [20:49] But the reality is that Germany has had a lot of refugees who have been given protection. [20:54] I need to bring in Deborah, who has been waiting patiently. [20:56] Deborah Feldman is a German-American writer, political commentator. [20:59] The AFD is soaring in the polls. [21:01] They may secure their first state premiership in Saxony-Anhalt in September. [21:06] Thank you. [21:07] As an immigrant and a Jewish woman living in Berlin, how concerned are you about the rise and rise of the AFD in Germany? [21:13] Well, I'm a passport German, but I got my passport on the basis of my Jewish great-grandfather, [21:20] who was actually the son of an ethnic German Catholic who had an illegitimate child with a Jewish woman. [21:28] As a result of this, he was expelled from the German Volk. [21:31] So, in a sense, I'm a product of what Mr. Kraa has referred to as mixed culture. [21:38] I already feel uncomfortable in Germany before the AFD is in power because I am a progressive and anti-Zionist Jew. [21:45] So, the liberal mainstream in Germany is very narrow and expels anything that doesn't belong. [21:50] So, Mayanese is already great and is, of course, increasing with the approach. [21:55] If you say that the liberal mainstream is narrow and they blame everyone of extremism, [22:00] like even you from the left side, and they do with us. [22:03] I'm not going to vote for you. [22:05] Everyone is extremist. [22:06] He is not mainstream. [22:07] I mean, it's very easy. [22:08] What do you make of Maximilian's position that re-migration now is not the definition? [22:13] He's not a fan of the concept. [22:14] Do you buy that? [22:15] You've very openly said that you understand it is not strategic to maintain these convictions publicly, [22:21] and I understand you want to bring your party into the mainstream. [22:24] You would like to have access to the power that the mainstream now has access to. [22:28] What you've said about Jews in Germany is the Israelis are great because they're ethno-nationalists defending their borders. [22:34] The current Jews in Germany have nothing to contribute. [22:36] And most of the Jews are left and basically communist. [22:40] That is your ideological answer. [22:42] Maximilian briefly response. [22:43] Because the last, I mean, if you have seen my Instagram, last weekend, last- [22:47] You know, have you read the comments on your Instagram? [22:49] Let me make a point. [22:50] Last weekend I was at a wedding on the Code Azur where my good German Jewish friend here, Tam, [22:57] who got the German passport the same way like you because his great-grandmother came from Germany, [23:02] and he came, had to leave because the Nazis. [23:04] He came back and became, he married his German bride. [23:08] So, and now you tell me I have something against Jews in Germany. [23:12] That's complete nonsense. [23:13] You said earlier, you want more migrants voting for the AFD, more Turkey. [23:16] Do you think there are too many Muslims in Germany? [23:18] I look after the different groups that come, and I think- [23:21] That was a very simple question that you couldn't answer. [23:23] No, if I ask, sorry, if I ask a Turk, do you want to have more Syrians? [23:28] Then he said, of course not. [23:29] If I ask him, what about your Turkish cousin? [23:32] Of course, yes. [23:33] That's great, but to say that- [23:34] We're not asking the Turkish or Syrians, I'm asking you Maximilian Krah. [23:36] I don't like the phrase that we put all the Muslims in one basket. [23:40] Do you think there are too many Muslims in Germany? [23:43] From today, I would like- [23:44] I don't know what's going on up there. [23:46] It's a very simple question. [23:47] Are you thinking of the political- [23:48] Are you worried what your base is going to say? [23:50] Do you think there are too many Muslims in Germany? [23:52] If I would now get the answer, can we take young people from Tehran to Germany who are formerly Muslim? [23:58] I would say yes. [23:59] I understand you're a politician, and you answer a question with a question, but I will ask it again. [24:03] Do you think there are too many Muslims in Germany? [24:05] Which kind of Muslims? [24:08] You tell me. [24:09] I have no problem if you say we have now 10,000 young people from Tehran in Iran who come to Germany for study and have no problem with them. [24:17] I don't want to have 10,000 Somalis. [24:20] Okay? [24:21] It's a difference. [24:22] You don't like Somalis? [24:23] I know the data, and I know how Somalis perform in Western countries, and I know how Iranians perform in Western countries. [24:31] Both are Muslims. [24:32] Do I have a problem with Iranian Muslims? [24:33] No, I don't have. [24:34] Do I have a problem with Somali Muslims in Western countries? [24:37] Obviously, I have. [24:38] I'll ask you one last time. [24:39] Do you think there are too many Muslims in Germany? [24:41] I think the question can't be answered because you cannot put all Muslims in one basket. [24:46] I think that is not correct. [24:47] Well, let's end on a point of agreement. [24:49] We shouldn't put Muslims in one basket. [24:50] Of course not. [24:51] Yes, so you should chat with your friends in Saxony and Holt. [24:54] I will tell him your regards. [24:56] We will take a break there. [24:57] That is the end of part one of Head to Head. [24:59] When we come back, we're going to talk about some of the AFD's foreign policy controversies. [25:04] Don't go away. [25:05] Coming up very soon. [25:06] Welcome back to Head to Head on Al Jazeera. [25:19] I'm joined by Maximilian Krah from the very controversial AFD party in Germany. [25:23] We've been talking domestic politics, some of the immigration rhetoric, Islamophobic rhetoric in part one. [25:28] Let's talk a little bit about some of the foreign policy controversies associated with your party. [25:32] And you in particular, Maximilian in 2025, your former European parliamentary aide, Jian Gua, [25:38] was sentenced to nearly five years in prison for spying for Chinese intelligence [25:42] in what prosecutors called an especially serious case of espionage. [25:45] A German court found that he collected information on AFD leadership on European Parliament negotiations. [25:50] He spied on Chinese dissidents. [25:52] When your colleagues in the AFD came to you and raised their concerns about this guy working for you, [25:57] who is a good friend of yours, you dismissed them as racist. [26:00] How could you have been so naive to have a Chinese spy in your office? [26:03] First of all, indeed, it chose that I'm not a racist at all because he was a friend and I hired him. [26:09] I'm a lawyer by training. [26:10] I wanted to see evidence. [26:11] And my party colleagues at that time when they came and said he is a spy, they had no evidence. [26:16] The only evidence was that he had Chinese origin and that is not the base to fire someone. [26:21] I completely agree with you. [26:22] There are also some Germans working for the Chinese government. [26:24] Indeed. [26:25] You've been accused of working for the Chinese government. [26:26] No, I was never accused. [26:27] Actually, you are currently under investigation by the German authorities. [26:31] But not for working for the Chinese government. [26:33] No, for taking bribes from the Chinese government. [26:36] Payments allegedly facilitated by your former aide. [26:38] And they didn't find any cent. [26:40] Nothing. [26:41] That investigation is ongoing, isn't it? [26:43] It hasn't been closed. [26:44] It hasn't been closed. [26:45] They raided my apartment and they found nothing. [26:47] The point is that the German state has a very small mainstream. [26:51] It is very radical against everyone outside of this mainstream. [26:54] I have a colleague of mine, Mr. Bistron, who had 23 raids in his apartment as a member of parliament. [27:00] That is Germany, by the way. [27:02] I only had one. [27:03] So you see how harmless am I? [27:05] And they found nothing. [27:06] But do you understand why people might not take your denial seriously given you did have a Chinese spy working in your office? [27:12] I was obviously the victim of espionage. [27:15] That is something different than to be a spy, isn't it? [27:18] You deny taking bribes from the Chinese government? [27:20] Of course I deny. [27:21] It's a complete bull****. [27:22] Okay. [27:23] You don't take money from the Chinese government, you say, but you're happy to push Chinese government talking points. [27:27] In the European Parliament, you voted against a resolution for China to stop suppressing the Uyghurs. [27:32] You call the accusations anti-Chinese propaganda. [27:35] On the 70th anniversary of Chinese rule of Tibet, you congratulated China for being proud of what they achieved in Tibet. [27:41] You were also vice chair of an EU-China lobbying group that disbanded after an investigation to its ties to the Chinese Communist Party. [27:48] So whether you're paid or not, bribed or not, your critics would say you are pushing a Chinese government line. [27:53] No, I don't. [27:54] The European Parliament has to every major country a friendship group, also to China. [27:59] So I was a member of. [28:00] Why? [28:01] At that time, China was the biggest trade partner of Germany, and sometimes it's good to be friends with the biggest trade partner, [28:06] because especially when you're an export nation. [28:08] So there is nothing wrong with it. [28:10] Maximilian, did you go to Xinjiang and visit detention centers where Uyghurs are held? [28:13] I never visited Xinjiang. [28:15] Okay, but you're a defender of the Chinese government. [28:17] No, but look, I know that there is a lot of propaganda underway. [28:21] Don't trust in information given by some Soros-funded NGO until you double-checked it. [28:26] I mean, this is the difference I have with Mr. Knauss, who comes from a Soros-funded NGO. [28:30] I only believe him if I double-check his facts. [28:32] And usually, Soros-funded NGO facts are just lies. [28:36] Multiple human rights groups have documented what's happened. [28:39] Who pays multiple human rights groups? [28:42] I don't know. [28:43] Who pays NGOs? [28:44] Why Donald Trump defunded USAID? [28:47] Maximilian, Adam, Amnesty International, and you, you're the one being investigated for taking bribes. [28:52] They can investigate me as long as they want. [28:54] They will not find anything. [28:55] An investigation does not make me guilty. [28:57] I didn't say it was. [28:58] Let's talk about Russia as well, because you've got some issues there. [29:01] President Putin has praised your party. [29:02] Of course. [29:03] The AFD. [29:04] He's called, your party's called for an end to sanctions on Putin's Russia. [29:07] Of course. [29:08] You yourself and another AFD colleague are currently being investigated by the German authorities [29:13] for, wait for it, allegedly receiving bribes from the Russian government. [29:17] No, I'm not investigated. [29:18] I'm not investigated. [29:19] No, there is no case against me. [29:21] Not even an investigation. [29:22] So the Dresden Public Prosecutor's Office. [29:24] Yeah, it's called a pre-investigation. [29:27] This is a new, you know what a pre-investigation is? [29:30] Okay. [29:31] They don't have the evidence. [29:32] I call that a preliminary investigation. [29:33] They don't have the evidence to make an investigation. [29:34] And though they say, now we do for the press one month before election. [29:38] Oh, it's a pre-investigation to interfere into elections. [29:41] There is no investigation. [29:43] There is just a statement to the press to bring people who are, believe those nonsense, [29:49] not to vote for me, but it doesn't help. [29:51] So they vote for me. [29:52] But it doesn't help that, again, your party is super close to Russia. [29:55] No, we are close to America. [29:56] Your colleague, Markus Frommeyer, was described in a leaked Russian intelligence email, [30:01] our absolutely controlled MP in the German parliament. [30:04] And you know that this leak is correct? [30:06] And his assistant, I'm sorry, that is not true. [30:08] His assistant was accused of launching false flag attacks in Ukraine. [30:12] What is up with assistance to German MEPs and MPs from the AFD? [30:16] I don't know his assistance, I don't know him. [30:19] The point is the German government has no arguments against us. [30:22] So they produce one after the other such fake accusations. [30:26] And then for us, all our voters know that it's fake, so they don't react anymore. [30:32] Because we know there is the next fake story because they don't have an argument. [30:35] There is a poll, we have 29%. [30:37] Then there's the next fake story. [30:38] Then we have 30%. [30:39] Then there's the next fake story. [30:41] They don't learn it. [30:42] People want to go into politics and we have the best concepts in foreign policy. [30:45] That's why people vote for us, by the way. [30:47] Let me bring in Gerald Klaus, who you mentioned. [30:49] He's the director of the Think Tank European Stability Initiative. [30:51] Soros Vandert. [30:52] Gerald, do you want to respond? [30:53] A lot of attacks on you tonight. [30:55] Do you want to respond? [30:56] Soros Vandert. [30:57] Well, last week I was in Ukraine. [30:59] I spent the night in the shelter because Ukraine for four years has been bombed by Putin. [31:06] In St. Petersburg, leaders of your party have made very clear they want a Europe in which Germany and Putin's Russia cooperate again. [31:15] And that means at the expense of other European nations. [31:18] No. [31:19] Putin, who's been threatening the Baltic States, who's been threatening Poland, who's been threatening Moldova and who's waging a brutal war in Ukraine. [31:27] You want to lift the sanctions. [31:29] Your party leader has said Vladimir Putin is not. [31:32] He doesn't think he's a war criminal. [31:34] For other European nations that have for the last 80 years relied on Germany to be a pillar of the European structure of peace. [31:44] To see your party come close to power in that country that justifies the methods of Vladimir Putin means that very soon Danes, Poles, Baltics, Belgians and other Europeans need to be afraid. [31:57] Because your approach is that a man who uses force to change borders, that a man who denies the nationality, is an ally. [32:05] Let me just put a direct question. [32:06] Do you see Vladimir Putin as an ally? [32:07] Not as an ally. [32:08] How do you see him? [32:09] He's the president of Russia. [32:12] Okay. [32:13] Great. [32:14] I mean, come on. [32:15] This is... [32:16] What you hear now is nonsense talk because... [32:18] Maximilian, is he someone you like or admire? [32:20] Look, I'm a politician. [32:21] I'm not here to tell you I like you or I don't like you. [32:23] Is he someone you want to work closely with? [32:25] Can you answer a question? [32:26] Germany has traditionally and should have cultural, economic exchange with Russia. [32:33] It makes no sense to have an endless war. [32:34] Who wins in an endless war? [32:35] Would an AFD government host him in Germany? [32:37] He's an indicted war criminal suspect for the ICC. [32:40] We should host every politician worldwide who represents important states because we need diplomacy to end wars. [32:47] The solution he brings is an endless war with billions of pounds going to Ukraine. [32:52] And if you want to end the war, you have to talk to people. [32:55] Stop this war and not making points. [32:58] They are evil. [32:59] We don't like them. [33:00] There is a big crime. [33:01] The crime is to continue this war. [33:04] You have no solution. [33:05] We have a solution. [33:06] Dare I ask? [33:07] I know we're behind them. [33:08] What is your solution to Ukraine? [33:09] Immediately, immediately joined Donald Trump's peace process and stopped giving European money. [33:14] Donald Trump miserably failed to do a peace process in Ukraine. [33:16] No, he didn't fail because the Germans paid to continue the war instead of following Trump's approach. [33:21] Let me bring in Ralph Schulhammer, head of the Center for Applied History at the Matthias Corvinus Collegium, a conservative think tank in Budapest. [33:27] A lot of far right parties in Europe have been accused of being too close to Russia and Vladimir Putin. [33:32] Marine Le Pen's national rally. [33:34] Viktor Orban in Hungary, who just lost. [33:36] Do you think it's going to cost parties like the AFD in the medium to long term to be seen as so close to Vladimir Putin? [33:42] No, absolutely. [33:43] I think this is a problem. [33:44] But I think we should be fair in our comparison. [33:46] It is true, right, that the AFD believes there should be direct contacts with Russia. [33:50] By the way, Sigmar Gabriel, the former socialist minister, just came out yesterday and said the same thing. [33:55] If you look at trade of the UK, of Germany, of France, of Italy, with countries in Central Asia, you will see in 2022, they skyrocket. [34:03] So either it is that that Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan all of a sudden need all these machines from Germany, or it is that they simply buy them in Germany and then sell them to Russia. [34:11] So what's happening is European goods, particularly in the machine industry, still reach Russia. [34:16] It's just via Central Asia. [34:17] And the European Union knows this very well. [34:19] Second, very quick question. [34:20] Who was really doing the bidding of Vladimir Putin? [34:23] Who was behind Nord Stream 2, who banned fracking in Germany, who decided to close down the nuclear power plants, which all played into the hands of Putin. [34:31] That was not the AFD because they've never been in government. [34:33] And would you say you're correct? [34:34] You said 80 years. [34:35] But until 2022, every European politician was lining up in Moscow to do business with Putin. [34:41] So now all of a sudden they have discovered that this is wrong. [34:43] Good for them. [34:44] But that's a new position they've taken. [34:45] That's fair. [34:46] Deborah Feldman is also a German-American writer, political commentator. [34:49] You argued in part one about the AFD and the Jewish community. [34:53] A big foreign policy issue in Germany right now is Israel and the genocide in Gaza and the German government's position. [34:59] Alice Weidel says we need to protect the existence of Israel. [35:02] She says the AFD is the only protector in Germany of the Jewish people. [35:07] We are. [35:08] We are, says Maximilian. [35:10] What's your response to that? [35:12] Well, the anti-Semitism within the party and above all within the party's voting base is clearly documented. [35:17] But of course, far right parties all over the Western world are known to have discovered the power of philo-Semitism already in the 90s. [35:25] This idea of we need to rid ourselves of the reputation for being anti-Semis. [35:29] And the best way to do that is to show ourselves as being associated with, not with Jews, but with the idea of Jewish power, which is the state of Israel. [35:36] It's a very thin veneer. [35:37] The party itself is broken into various factions. [35:40] But what we know is that philo-Semitism has been useful until now in order to legitimize Islamophobia, in order to fuel anti-migrant rhetoric, [35:49] and to use against the liberal mainstream in order to convince them to move further to the right by saying that they're not protecting Jews enough. [35:57] It's a thin veneer, Deborah says. [35:59] Deep down, you, your party, your party members are anti-Semitic. [36:01] Of course not. [36:02] There is no... [36:03] She said this is evidence. [36:04] There is no evidence. [36:05] There is evidence. [36:06] There was a poll done by a study done by the Conrad Adenauer Foundation. [36:09] They found that one in five people who prefer the AFD tend to agree or strongly agree that rich Jews rule the world. [36:15] 6% of AFD supporters show elevated agreement with anti-Semitic statements compared to 2% of ordinary Germans. [36:20] Conrad Adenauer Stiftung is the official party think tank of our biggest competitor. [36:26] I mean, to ask them about us... [36:28] I mean, that's a poll. [36:29] That's a poll of AFD supporters. [36:30] ...is nonsense. [36:31] And to be honest, there is no... [36:33] Why did you listen to the comments on your Instagram? [36:35] The German domestic intelligence blamed us for everything. [36:38] They blame us also for bad weather, but among them, they blamed us for being anti-Semite. [36:42] And even two years ago, the Kurd in Nordrhein-Westfalen pushed away this accusation. [36:50] So it's nonsense. [36:51] You don't think Jewish communities in Germany face a threat from far-right Germans? [36:54] No. [36:55] No, they don't face a threat from far-right Germans. [36:57] Really? [36:58] There is no... [36:59] Not one attack against the Jewish community in Germany. [37:02] So... [37:03] I'm sorry, they blame... [37:04] So according to RIS data, this federal government data, anti-Semitic violence has surged in Germany in recent years, [37:09] with far-right Germans responsible for three times as many incidents as Islamists. [37:13] You know, if... [37:14] I know your party likes to claim Islam and Islam... [37:15] You should know how they count what is far-right. [37:17] If you are a far-right Muslim, then this is a far-right violence against Jews. [37:21] So they don't distinguish between immigrant far-right and ethnic German far-right. [37:27] All those data from German official authorities that are concerning us are usually nonsense. [37:33] Three to one. [37:34] Three to one. [37:35] This is far-right against Islamists. [37:36] That's what the official data says. [37:37] This is why no German believes them. [37:38] Every time you say there's no evidence, I give you evidence and then you say it's all a conspiracy against the AfD. [37:41] Yeah, but no German believes those numbers anymore because they know it's wrong. [37:44] Actually, 72% of Germans, as we discussed at the top of the show, think your party's a danger to democracy. [37:48] You accepted that they believed the data. [37:50] You can't have it both ways. [37:51] You're not the strongest party and... [37:52] You're the strongest party in a country that is a multi-party democracy. [37:55] You're at less than 30% nationally. [37:57] Let's go to our audience who have been waiting patiently here in Conway Hall. [38:01] If you have a question, do raise your hands, wait for the microphone to come to you. [38:04] There's around 12,000 Syrian doctors in Germany, which makes them the largest group of healthcare professionals in the country. [38:15] Many of them work in remote areas like East Germany. [38:18] And I'm wondering, how will you prevent the collapse of the healthcare system if you deport these Syrians? [38:26] We don't deport doctors. [38:27] It's very easy. [38:29] I thought the AfD is very keen on repatriating Syrian refugees. [38:32] 6,000 are naturalized, right? [38:34] So it's absolutely clear that we don't repatriate naturalized persons. [38:37] So we talk about 6,000 that are not naturalized yet. [38:40] Right? [38:41] And then they are doctors and they are integrated and they have a job in a hospital. [38:45] So hold on. [38:46] You think Syrian doctors are doing a great job helping Germany? [38:49] Yeah. [38:50] My brother is the director of a hospital in a rural area. [38:53] And I talked to him and he said, we now have two Syrian doctors. [38:56] Works fine. [38:57] Okay. [38:58] So why have you spent years complaining about Syrian refugees? [39:00] Complaining about Angela Merkel? [39:01] Complaining about invasions? [39:02] Complaining about great replacement? [39:03] Because not every Syrian refugee is a doctor. [39:05] Okay. [39:06] So you keep the Syrian refugees with a doctor? [39:08] You know that most refugees in Germany, 70% work in high-skilled professions. [39:12] They're not in low-skilled professions. [39:13] No, that's not true. [39:14] That is true. [39:15] 70% of refugees? [39:16] No. [39:17] 70% of working refugees who are able to work. [39:19] Yeah. [39:20] And 50% are not working and are on welfare. [39:21] Many of them are in restrictions. [39:22] And they cost a lot of money. [39:23] And many of them are in restrictions. [39:24] You know that. [39:25] We have the second highest number of refugees worldwide. [39:26] What are you going to do when you run out of workers? [39:27] I know you're very anti-migrant. [39:28] It's too much. [39:29] It's too much. [39:30] You cannot blame us to lower the number of people pouring in. [39:34] Immigration is down. [39:35] It's hugely down and you know this. [39:37] No. [39:38] Because they don't count the families who come down. [39:40] Immigration is down almost half. [39:43] In December, more people left Germany than arrived. [39:45] Let's go to the gentleman here. [39:47] Yes, second in. [39:49] We haven't heard so much about your policy towards the United States and Donald Trump. [39:54] What is your party's policy to the US? [39:57] Aren't we entitled to think that you're advocating not the greatness of the German nation, [40:02] but its subjugation to these global oligarchs and tyrants? [40:07] Okay. [40:08] Donald Trump is the most successful example of a right-wing movement changing politics. [40:16] So obviously for us, he's an example because we see how he gained power and how he could make a base that could win elections. [40:27] More, we know that Donald Trump and his administration admires Germany. [40:31] J.D. Vance made great speeches when the government went after us. [40:37] Both Marco Rubio and his deputy foreign minister made public statements to defend us. [40:43] So we see ourselves among all the right-wing parties in Europe as Marga's greatest ally. [40:50] And I personally, I think that Donald Trump is a man who brings the right change into the world despite all the deficits I see too. [40:59] You mentioned Trump. [41:00] One thing I always find about Trump is that he's fine with foreigners abroad. [41:04] He loves going to Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, China. [41:06] He loves foreign dictatorships. [41:07] But he doesn't like immigrants at home. [41:09] And that seems to be the case with your party as well. [41:11] No, look, look, the left is doing endless wars against the whole world. [41:16] Donald Trump just launched the war against Iran. [41:18] The guy you just phrased. [41:19] Iran is a problem. [41:20] But the right-wing tries to have diplomacy. [41:22] The left didn't launch the war in Iran. [41:23] Our approach is not endless war in Ukraine, endless war in Syria, endless war in Afghanistan. [41:28] Our approach is peace. [41:29] We don't want to have endless wars. [41:31] But not in Iran. [41:32] But not in Iran. [41:34] Iran is, when Iran has began in February, I'm optimistic that it will end very soon. [41:41] You're right. [41:42] Iran is a sin. [41:43] Let's go to the judgment here in the second room. [41:44] Let's wait for the microphone to come in and then we'll go to the back. [41:47] Britain was able to rescue itself from the EU through Brexit. [41:52] Will Germany be able to rescue itself, get out of the EU? [41:55] Before I came here, I was today in the House of Lords. [41:58] And I met with Lord Glassman, who is a blue Labour Lord. [42:02] And we agreed that the EU will collapse within the next five to ten years. [42:06] AFD is the only party who's prepared for that. [42:09] And of course, there will be no EU in ten years. [42:12] You think the EU will be gone in ten? [42:14] Bring it to the bank. [42:15] And the AFD government would pull out of the EU, just to be clear. [42:17] The EU is now the most economically weak, less innovative, demographically collapsing, [42:24] big room and big space in the world. [42:27] We don't have AI. [42:28] We don't have any innovation. [42:31] We don't have, and we don't have growth. [42:33] So of course, such an area, such a construct must fail. [42:36] It will fail and we will be happy about it. [42:38] Thanks a minute. [42:39] Did I imagine that you just said, it's demographically collapsing? [42:42] It's over-aged. [42:43] And how do you deal with the over-aging population? [42:45] First, increasing productivity, reforming the pension system and making clear that people should [42:52] No serious economist in Germany or beyond doesn't believe that immigration isn't a part of dealing with an aging society. [43:00] The immigration we have. [43:01] That's why every serious German economist is attacking your party. [43:04] No, no, no. [43:05] You cannot say the immigration we have has higher costs and benefits. [43:08] If we only have immigration of people who are skilled, Syrian doctors, if we only get Syrian doctors, welcome. [43:15] But if I get 50% of Syrians in welfare, it costs more than 10,000 doctors bring. [43:20] That's not true. [43:21] It's math. [43:22] Can we get the numbers straight? [43:23] I mean, we have the official numbers. [43:25] 51% of so-called citizenship money receivers in Germany are non-German passport holders. [43:30] Yes. [43:31] So, I mean, the cherry picking of numbers, and you did this yourself, Mich. [43:33] You say, well, of those Syrians who have a job, it's high qualified job. [43:36] Yes. [43:37] But that's, at the given time right now, a very small percentage. [43:40] Let's go back to the audience. [43:41] I said I'd go to someone at the back. [43:42] Deborah, I will come back to you. [43:43] Gentleman there. [43:44] Yes. [43:45] You want to stand up? [43:46] Every country has a scheme whereby if you are wealthy enough, you can get citizenship by buying a property or investing in a business. [43:55] Does citizenship for sale make a mockery of true substantive political equal citizenship? [44:01] First of all, Germany does not have such a scheme and it would not make sense because our taxes are too high. [44:06] So if you are rich and you become a German citizen, you are very stupid. [44:10] That's the first thing. [44:11] Secondly, citizenship and traditional ethnicity go out. [44:16] And this is why we have to distinguish. [44:18] And you are right. [44:19] The more we have such schemes, the lower is the value of citizenship. [44:24] Finally, you see that citizenship becomes a purely legal model. [44:29] And this is why communities become more and more important. [44:32] When you say in your book, decency, honesty and trust can only be gained if people maintain their ethnic makeup. [44:39] Do you stand by that? [44:40] If you have a need, then you probably need a group that helps you. [44:44] And this is something you find with people who are close to you. [44:48] You wrote decency, honesty and trust can only be gained if people maintain their ethnic makeup. [44:52] Right wing politics, you wrote, commits itself to the people, which is more than the community of citizens. [44:57] Exactly. [44:58] You have the community of citizens. [44:59] That's not exactly at all. [45:00] But in the community of citizens, you have ethnic groups. [45:03] You have it in the UK. [45:04] Hold on. [45:05] And they help you. [45:06] You can have multiple ethnic groups and communities. [45:08] Yes. [45:09] Who are citizens. [45:10] So multiculturalism. [45:11] You're fine with that. [45:12] It's not much. [45:13] I don't like it. [45:14] You just described a group of different multiple ethnic communities. [45:16] No, but this is the reality. [45:17] I'm in favor of the reality. [45:19] You're the one who's trying to take us back in time. [45:21] But this is a reality that is a deep problem. [45:23] We have people in need and we have to manage it. [45:26] So we have to change politics that people have a hope and they can only get their hope if they have people who have a need. [45:32] This is the right wing approach. [45:34] All this talk about re-migration isn't actually about re-migration. [45:37] So when the AFD first came out with this re-migration scandal, the mainstream says things like, [45:43] Oh, wait till the AFD finds out that they don't have anyone to clean their toilets. [45:46] There's an attitude across the board in German society that migrants are here to be an underclass. [45:51] They're here to perform menial labor. [45:53] They're not there shouldn't be integrating because then they'll threaten our power, our dominance. [45:57] What the AFD is suggesting with talk around re-migration is a kind of intimidation and the legitimization of techniques designed to keep migrants in Germany in the underclass. [46:07] That's really what this is about. [46:08] Re-migration is not about re-migration. [46:10] So what have you talked about the first part of this, of this show? [46:14] I mean, you see how these accusations are simply nonsense. [46:17] Maximilian, when you say immigration is not about integration into the German cultural community. [46:21] It's about its destruction. [46:22] That is very inflammatory rhetoric. [46:24] Integration means integrate in the community of citizens. [46:28] Take an example. [46:29] You come from, I don't know, Turkey, then you should maintain also your language and your ancestors and your traditions. [46:35] You should not give up everything that makes you human. [46:38] So a migrant comes into a country and then he keeps, of course, what he has learned at home. [46:43] But he takes also what he finds in the new place. [46:46] That's what you support. [46:47] Yes, he should not. [46:48] That is victory the definition of multiculturalism. [46:50] Okay, last question. [46:51] The gentleman here. [46:52] Yes. [46:53] You seem to have quite an incessant focus on ethnic makeup. [46:59] And I would ask, what purpose does that serve other than perpetuating division amongst the German people? [47:06] Because people are not purely individual. [47:08] I give you your dignity and your dependency back by bringing you, giving you bonds that are independent from the state. [47:17] The state is not your mummy and your daddy. [47:20] The state often is hostile to you. [47:23] But if you have bonds to your family, to people who are close to you, to share the same beliefs and traditions, then you become a strong, independent person with your own dignity. [47:34] This is the right wing approach and this is what I stand for. [47:37] Last question. [47:38] Right now, there's a trial going on of three former AFD members. [47:42] One was a city councillor, two were party members. [47:44] Yes, it's because... [47:45] They're on trial for plotting to coup the state government and replace it with a Nazi style state. [47:52] Do you understand why when people hear stories like this, they are so worried about your party? [47:57] No, they are not worried. [47:58] And they're worried about, they shouldn't be worried when they hear that there was a plot to build a Nazi state in Saxony. [48:06] Three years ago, there was a nationwide plot to overcome the government and to make the coup d'etat. [48:12] This plot, officially plot, was maintained by people who were mostly older than 65. [48:19] They had not a real bazooka or a machine gun. [48:23] I'm not saying it was going to be successful. [48:25] Should they be worried that people with that ideology are serving in your party? [48:29] This is the typical bull our opponents bring. [48:31] They don't have arguments against me. [48:33] They don't have arguments against our party. [48:35] They invent accusations and coup d'etats and anything like this. [48:40] There has never been a real coup d'etat in Germany. [48:43] Look, the country is in crisis. [48:46] We have to talk about politics. [48:47] We have to talk about humanity, about dignity, about how to change it. [48:51] And what we're talking about, about fake accusations. [48:54] What you call fake, what other people say. [48:57] To prevent them, to keep their power. [48:58] And I want to challenge that power to make Germany a better country. [49:01] And I wish you that you will have a better UK too. [49:03] Maximilian Krah, we are not going to agree on very much. [49:07] I appreciate you coming here and taking my questions. [49:09] Thank you for coming on the show. [49:10] Thank you to our audience here in London's Conway Hall. [49:13] Thank you to our panel of experts. [49:14] Head to head, we'll be back on Al Jazeera very soon from me. [49:18] Good night. [49:19] Thank you.