Interior official turns whistleblower, claiming retaliation for climate change work

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: JUDY WOODRUFF: Now, what do you do when your job changes, but you don't agree with the change? For one government scientist, it forced him into a role of a reluctant whistleblower. Our William Brangham has our conversation. WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Until very recently, Joel Clement had been working as a senior policy official in the Department of the Interior. His work included the Arctic and the dangerous climate change posed. But in June, he was reassigned, along with several dozen others, to a completely different position unrelated to his previous work. Last week, Clement went public in a Washington Post op-ed alleging that he was reassigned because of his work on climate change. He said he was now -- quote -- "a whistleblower on an administration that chooses silence over science." Joel Clement joins me now. Welcome to the "NewsHour." JOEL CLEMENT, The Washington Post: Thank you, William. [00:00:47] Joel Clement: Good to be here. [00:00:48] Speaker 1: WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So, you were one of several dozen people who were reassigned, and you allege that this was because of your work on climate change. And I'm curious, let's talk a little bit about what that work was that you were doing before you were reassigned. What did you do? [00:01:03] Joel Clement: JOEL CLEMENT: Yes, I was -- here in Washington, I was the director of the Office of Policy Analysis. I had a team of analysts and economists and scientists. And we were looking at a lot of cross-cutting issues, one of which, in particular, we spent a lot of time on was addressing the risks that climate change poses for the Alaska Native communities in the Arctic. They're on these very narrow islands, barrier islands, that are in a very dire situation. Because the Arctic is warming twice as fast as the rest of the planet, the permafrost that locked those islands in place is starting to fall apart. And the sea ice that used to protect them from the oncoming storms and floods during the season of harsh weather has receded during that season. So now these spits of land are not only falling apart under their feet and buildings sliding into the sea, but they're at the mercy of these storms that come through. And each episode can be quite dramatic. And, honestly, we worry very much that one superstorm and one or more villages could be wiped right off the map. [00:02:07] Speaker 1: You argued in your piece that you believed you were reassigned for raising concerns about these communities. You wrote -- quote -- "The Trump administration clearly retaliated against me for raising awareness of this danger." What evidence do you have that that's really why you got moved? [00:02:22] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: Well, it's clear that there has been an ongoing effort to suppress this climate change stuff, right? We didn't worry about that as much at Interior, because we work on climate adaptation and resilience issues, right? MARK SHIELDS: We're addressing the impacts that we know are coming, that are baked into the system, no matter what we do, about mitigating greenhouse gases. So, I guess, naively, we thought that the focus would be on greenhouse gases and EPA. But, really, in -- I think it was May -- President Trump rescinded an executive order from last December that set up a tribal advisory council and some other boards that would help get this work done. That's when we realized, it doesn't matter whether it's resilience, adaptation, or mitigation. They're coming after anything that has the scent of climate change to it. [00:03:12] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: And what were you doing specifically to raise awareness about this issue that you think put you in the crosshairs? [00:03:17] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: Well, I spoke very publicly about the issue. I raised it to leadership at the Department of the Interior. I raised it with leadership at the White House. I spoke on several occasions to the public about it. And just the week before I received the reassignment letter, I spoke about it at the United Nations. [00:03:34] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: Now, a spokesman for the Interior Department says that this move, transferring you from A to B, was completely appropriate. They say it's -- Interior Secretary Zinke said he was going to reorganize the department on day one, and that they argue that you signed up for this job knowing that this was likely going to happen. So, what is your response to that? [00:03:53] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: We absolutely know that the senior executive service is a mobile workforce. That's what it was intended for. Anyone that becomes an SES, a senior executive, is aware that they could at some point be reassigned, even involuntarily. What it does not allow, however, is for the administration to retaliate against employees -- employees by reassigning them, or to try and get them -- to coerce them into quitting their jobs. And it was very clear to me, based on the job they put me in, that that was their intent. [00:04:22] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: But they never said to you, we didn't like that you were talking about this or raising this issue. They simply said, we think you're better positioned to do this other job. [00:04:30] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: Yes, they actually never said anything. I didn't talk to anybody. No one reached out before the reassignment. And no one reached out after the reassignment except to tell me where my new office was. And my new office is in the office -- the accounting office that collects royalty checks from oil and gas companies. NICK SCHIFRIN: That's your current job now. MARK SHIELDS: That's where I sit now. It's not really a job. I'm a senior adviser, so there's a job title with no duties. So I think it was understood that I would quit the job before moving. [00:04:59] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: Do you see some irony there, that you were working on climate change largely driven by the consumption of oil and gas, and now you're cashing checks from the oil and gas industry? [00:05:09] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: Yes, the irony is not lost on me, nor is the very clear intent of that reassignment. [00:05:15] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: You have filed a complaint now with the U.S. Office of Special Counsel. What is it you hope comes of this? [00:05:22] Joel Clement: MARK SHIELDS: Well, I'm going to trust the process. They will do an investigation. I certainly hope that they will then ask the department to reinstate me in my old job, so I can get back to work looking out for these Alaska Native communities, looking out for the health and safety of Americans. That's what makes this work meaningful. And of course, I hope to be able to do that. I also, though, hope that others that are contemplating speaking out realize they do have rights and they do have a voice, and there's an opportunity, if they need to, if they're told to do things they don't approve of or not to do their job, that they should speak out. [00:05:58] Speaker 1: NICK SCHIFRIN: All right, Joel Clement, thank you very much for talking with us. [00:06:01] Joel Clement: JOEL CLEMENT: Thank you very much.