Gov. Josh Shapiro says Congress must tackle affordability and accountability: Full interview

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Governor Josh Shapiro, welcome back to Meet the Press, and congratulations on your re-election. [00:00:04] Josh Shapiro: Thank you. It's good to be back. [00:00:05] Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here in person. We appreciate it. Let's talk about this landslide night for Democrats. How do you see the mandate for Democrats now, moving forward? [00:00:17] Josh Shapiro: I think it's what I talk about in Pennsylvania every day. GSD, get stuff done. Folks voted for me, voted to give me a governing trifecta for the first time in Pennsylvania since 1978. They voted to send four new Democrats to Congress from Pennsylvania, effectively tilting the balance of power there. And it was all about accountability, yes, for Trump, but it has to be about real results, making their lives better, doing concrete things that they can see to bring costs down, to make sure that they have less chaos in their lives, to end the war and to make sure that we have a government that that's actually responsive to their needs. I think that's what I heard. And, Kristen, I heard it whether it was in our native place of Philadelphia, where I know you're fond of and from, but I also heard it in rural communities and areas that, you know, historically hadn't voted for Democrats. They want to see concrete change, and they want to see things get done. [00:01:18] Speaker 1: Did Democrats win or did Republicans lose on Tuesday? [00:01:23] Josh Shapiro: Well, I think there was absolutely a repudiation of Trump and Vance, but there was absolutely a core group of Democrats, let me just focus on governors for a moment, who went out and were very specific about what they were going to do, the change they wanted to bring about, the things that we could do as governors to bring down costs and increase opportunities. I think it's interesting that of the ten biggest states in America, nine of them are now led by Democratic governors, and 75 percent of the American population is led by a Democratic governor. So, yes, there was absolutely a repudiation of Donald Trump. There was also an acknowledgement the Democrats had better ideas who were on the ballot and a better approach to governing and getting stuff done. [00:02:07] Speaker 1: Let me ask you, because we saw all across the country and in Pennsylvania as well, Latino voters who were so critical to helping elect President Trump in 2024 vote overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates. How do Democrats retain those Latino voters moving forward? [00:02:27] Josh Shapiro: Well, first, they were a huge part of my coalition. I mean, I think we won by about 22 points, biggest margin in modern history. Latino voters showed up in record numbers. They were a huge difference maker in congressman-elect Bob Brooks' race in the Lehigh Valley. And I think what folks need to understand is, you know, they want mostly the same things everybody else does. Good schools for their kids, safe streets to walk down, economic opportunity and prosperity, especially for their small businesses, investment in their community. This isn't just, like, a unique thing there. This is common-sense stuff. And unfortunately, I think nationally, Democratic Party sort of walked away from that. Trump seized on that a few years ago and got their votes. But then what they also realized is they voted for lower prices, something I support. They voted to end wars, something I support. They voted, as Trump likes to say, for draining the swamp, something I support. And guess what? Trump didn't deliver on any of that. And so I think they had an opportunity to see that actually costs and prices went up. The number of wars increased, including this war in Iran. We had no business getting into it. He's got no idea how to get out of it. And corruption has dominated Washington, D.C. And so I think they realized that what he promised, he didn't deliver on. And then they saw in Democrats, someone who wanted to invest in their small businesses and their schools and in their safety, and they gave us their votes. And now it's critically important when we not take that for granted and that we continue to work to make their lives better and everyone else's. [00:03:58] Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about that critical question. How can Washington now deliver for the country? President Trump has said he's willing to work with Democrats. Where do you see an area where Democrats and President Trump can work together and actually pass legislation? [00:04:15] Josh Shapiro: Well, look, I hope one of the first things that the Congress does is to stop these Medicaid cuts, stop the SNAP cuts, roll back the cuts, the effective cuts in the Affordable Care Act. Just in my state of Pennsylvania, 510,000 people are losing health care as a result. It's 143,000 more are losing SNAP or food assistance. I hope that that's one of the first things Congress does. In general, though, I think Democrats need to have an aggressive agenda that cuts costs, that ends the war, that gets put on the president's desk. Hopefully, he will sign it because it'll be common sense stuff that makes people's lives better. If he chooses to veto it, it's yet another signal to the American people the president actually doesn't care about their well-being. I think that, pardon me, at the same time, I think the Congress needs to be responsive to where voters are on corruption. And there has to be real accountability for this administration. The key thing for Democratic majorities in Congress is to show they can walk and chew gum at the same time. Pass meaningful legislation that makes people's lives better and have real accountability for the corruption that exists in Washington. It can't be either or. It has to be both ends. [00:05:31] Speaker 1: I'm going to follow up with you on that point, but let me ask you, as you note, President Trump does have to actually sign any legislation in order for it to become law. Should Democrats be held accountable in 2028 if the economy doesn't improve by then? [00:05:46] Josh Shapiro: Well, I think it's important to see that we put bills, get bills through Congress, put them on the president's desk, and if the president wants to veto legislation that would raise wages, or the president wants to veto legislation that would drive down the cost of health care or increase health care access. That's on him, and that's a reflection of the Trump-Vance Republican Party as we go into the next election. Here's the thing, though. I don't think we should be thinking about 28. I think we should be thinking about how to make people's lives better in 2027, and it's incumbent upon the Congress to now do that, and it's incumbent upon governors now to continue to lead the way in our states. [00:06:24] Speaker 1: Is it incumbent upon Democrats to try to work with the president to find legislation that he will sign off on, in other words, as opposed to putting something in front of him that they know he'll veto? [00:06:36] Josh Shapiro: Look, I'm a governor who works with people on both sides of the aisle. I mentioned before we have a trifecta in Harrisburg for the first time since 1978, but the reality is that for the last four years I've had a divided legislature. So every bill I've passed to strengthen our schools and public safety, to grow our economy, we've got the only growing economy in the Northeast. We've created more jobs in the last three years than the prior 15 years combined, Kristen. The reality is I've had to do that by finding ways to work with Republicans. So sure, if the president of the United States wants to work with the Democratic majorities in Congress to raise wages and cut costs, absolutely should work with them. If he doesn't, then I think it's incumbent upon us to stand firm in our convictions, put bills on his desk, and if he's going to veto it, he's going to have to own that with the American people. [00:07:25] Speaker 1: As you have said, and Democrats have said, part of the agenda includes oversight and investigations. How should Democrats make sure that oversight doesn't come at the expense of taking action on the economy? [00:07:41] Josh Shapiro: It really goes back to what I said before. We've got to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think just because you're pursuing oversight, it means you don't care about cutting costs. I think we can do both. And, you know, I think Hakeem Jeffries has made very clear that both are going to be on the agenda for the first hundred days and for these next two years. And I think there are leaders in place who can both ensure that there is actual accountability and to make sure that costs are being cut, policies are being passed, or at least put on the president's desk. I would just say one more thing about accountability. It is very important that it is real accountability that informs the American people and changes some of these corrupt practices, not just accountability, and I mean this with the most respect, that gets headlines on your news program. I think it has to be about real accountability. I'll just give you one example, and sadly there are hundreds of examples. the defense secretary at the president's direction are blowing up fishing boats in the middle of oceans. There has been no accountability for that. There have been no oversight hearings about that. There's been no real questioning about why that's happening. It is critically important that Secretary Hegseth answer those questions, that anyone in the White House that was part of the chain of command to order those strikes answers for it, and that ultimately it's not just about the headlines that come out of it, but real accountability for how our military is conducting itself. Again, I don't want to suggest that's the most or the only thing, most important or the only thing we need to do when it comes to accountability, but it's one example of the serious approach we've got to take to ensuring accountability. [00:09:27] Speaker 1: Do you think Secretary Hegseth should be impeached? Is that accountability? I mean, look, [00:09:31] Josh Shapiro: that's a question for Congress to determine, but there has to be real questions asked. There has to be real accountability. I would just tell you, from my perspective, he is completely incompetent. He's like an eight-year-old playing with toy soldiers every day. He is someone who I think is making America less safe, and there has to be real accountability. If the Congress determines that the best approach is impeachment, then they'll do that. It does seem, and you're closer to this than I am, it does seem that there is a growing consensus amongst not just Democrats, but Republicans as well in the current Congress, not even the new Congress, that his time as Defense Secretary should be up. [00:10:13] Speaker 1: Well, there's, of course, a robust discussion within the Democratic Party about potentially impeaching President Trump. Do you believe that President Trump has committed impeachable offenses in his second term? [00:10:25] Josh Shapiro: So, again, I think there has to be real accountability. We've just spent a few moments talking about that. And it will be up to the Congress to determine, since that is a political tool of Congress, whether they want to go down that path. Here's what I will say. Over the last hundred years, one of the worst decisions ever by the Supreme Court of the United States has been to grant to the president absolute and total immunity for any crimes he may commit. It is clear that this president is corrupt. Kristen, he's put $2 billion in his pocket during his time as president. That's $2 billion that has come out of our pockets. It's $2 billion that has led him to not regulating AI. It's $2 billion that has led him to making decisions that are against America's national security interest. Selling chips to China, as an example, which undermines our national security, but probably indirectly enriches the president or his children. And so I think there has to be accountability for that. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court has taken away legal accountability. The Congress has to hold him accountable. They'll determine what the best approach is. [00:11:39] Speaker 1: But it sounds like you're saying impeachment should be left on the table. [00:11:42] Josh Shapiro: I think that's up to the leadership to determine and to the members of Congress, but there has to be real accountability. Let me be very clear. Just because I'm suggesting we leave that up to the Congress because it is exclusively within their purview, I think there has to be real accountability. He's got to be held to account. And the American people have to understand that as he's gotten richer as president, how their lives have been made worse, how our national security has been undermined. That's what I'm talking about when I talk about accountability that doesn't just lead to headlines, but leads to informing the American public and ideally changing behavior. [00:12:21] Speaker 1: And I just want to be very clear about what you mean by real accountability. Do you mean potentially passing legislation that prevents someone in the highest office from making money while they're in office? What specifically does real accountability mean to you? [00:12:36] Josh Shapiro: No, and I appreciate the question and the chance to go further on this. When our founders in Philadelphia 250 years ago set up, declared our independence from a king and then a decade later set up the scaffolding of our new nation. One of the things that Franklin and Madison in particular were deeply concerned about is that we wouldn't have enough guardrails in place and thus it would lead us to having yet another tyrant lead this nation. But there was an assumption amongst the founders that these would be not angels, as Madison said, but good men who would be bound by guardrails that would ensure their interests would be in the interests of the American people, even where there would be disagreements. Two and a half centuries later, we are now faced with really the first president, I believe, whose focus is not on the American people but on enriching himself. That worry of our founders combined with the decision of the Supreme Court leads me to believe that this Congress needs to pass a number of anti-corruption measures. And let's see if the president vetoes them. First and foremost, this is pretty low-hanging fruit, you can't do insider trading. Right? President, I mean, the members of Congress have done that pretty extensively. The president, I think, on the chart I saw did 2x the amount of the entire membership of the Congress. That's a basic thing. Stop insider trading. Stop stock trading based on the private information that members of Congress and the president get. I think we need to look at other measures as well, but I would say legislatively, we can no longer lean on the assumption that our founders had that these would be good men focused on doing things in the interest of the American people. Instead, we've now got to legislate it two and a half centuries later. [00:14:30] Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about your fellow Pennsylvania Democrat now, Senator John Fetterman, who has broken with the Democratic Party at various moments, have been critical of the Democratic Party as well. Now that Democrats have a comfortable majority in the Senate, do you believe that Senator John Fetterman still belongs in the Democratic Party? [00:14:53] Josh Shapiro: I mean, look, I have no idea what John is going to do. Probably wouldn't shock you. He has not confided in me what his political plans are, but here's what I would say. The good people of Pennsylvania have just voted, and they don't want people enabling Donald Trump anymore. They want real accountability for Trump. They want people who actually show up in their communities every day and do the hard work to make their lives better. And I think John's got a lot of work to do to earn the trust of the people of Pennsylvania, re-earn the trust of the people of Pennsylvania. He's got to show up, and he should speak to the people of Pennsylvania about what his plans are. [00:15:30] Speaker 1: Do you think that Senator Fetterman should face a primary challenge in 2028? [00:15:34] Josh Shapiro: I think there's going to be a robust primary challenge. [00:15:37] Speaker 1: That's what you're anticipating if people reached out to you about that? [00:15:39] Josh Shapiro: I think there's no question that people are lining up to run, and he has to decide if he's going to run. [00:15:44] Speaker 1: If Senator Fetterman decided tomorrow to become a Republican, would you be comfortable with that? Would you support that? [00:15:52] Josh Shapiro: Well, no, because the people of Pennsylvania elected a Democrat to that seat. So he would have a lot of explaining to do. [00:15:59] Speaker 1: Okay. Let me ask you about something that has loomed over these midterms, the issue of redistricting. Obviously, Republicans engaged in this rare mid-decade redistricting in an attempt to try to gain political advantage in the House. Democrats did follow suit in some blue states. A ballot measure just passed in Maryland that would allow Democrats to keep the fight going into 2028. Is it time for both parties to abandon this redistricting war? [00:16:27] Josh Shapiro: Well, look, I think we talked before about some new measures that need to be passed to combat corruption. I think we need an anti-gerrymandering law at the federal level. I think what you saw the Republicans do was just, you know, absolutely wrong. it was undermining our democracy, it was undermining the votes of people. I mean, heck, you know, we had a great night in South Carolina, right? Elected a Democratic U.S. senator, elected a new member of Congress, re-elected James Clyburn. But remember, six months ago, they were trying to write James Clyburn out of the House of Representatives, trying to silence black voices in South Carolina and elsewhere. It all backfired, and voters rose up, and they said they were not going to allow that. I think now what we need is not an arms race on redistricting, but real anti-gerrymandering laws in this country and redistricting reform. [00:17:26] Speaker 1: To that point, Democrats now have the majority in the Pennsylvania state legislature. Do you rule out redrawing the Pennsylvania maps before 28? [00:17:36] Josh Shapiro: We have a little bit of a different situation in Pennsylvania because our Supreme Court ruled just a few years ago that our maps were unconstitutional, they were redrawn, and we had competitive maps, and you saw what just happened in these elections. We went four for four on the competitive battleground districts, won all four of them, because the people of Pennsylvania ultimately had the final say. [00:17:58] Speaker 1: So would you redraw the maps any further? [00:18:00] Josh Shapiro: It's really not something that has been on our agenda, particularly given that Supreme Court ruling. [00:18:05] Speaker 1: It's not on your agenda, but can you rule it out? [00:18:08] Josh Shapiro: It's not on our agenda at this time. [00:18:10] Speaker 1: Okay. All right. Let's talk about another big idea for reform, this debate over the Supreme Court. Former Vice President Kamala Harris has said there should be 13 justices on the Supreme Court. Is that something you support? Would you support adding justices to the Supreme Court as many as getting up to 13? [00:18:29] Josh Shapiro: I think we need to have wholesale reform in the Supreme Court. I'm not sure 13 is the right number, 11. I mean, we can debate that number, and I think the Vice President is right to make the point. I think this is the point she was making, that we have to have real reform. I am in that camp of real reform at the Supreme Court. They have largely been a rubber stamp to this president. As I mentioned a moment ago, they also, I think, undermine our democracy when they say not just this president, but all future presidents are not accountable to the law. I think that we can have responsible reform that is not reactive to one's political viewpoint, but is instead reactive to the American people ensuring that we have accountability in all three branches of government. [00:19:15] Speaker 1: And just to be clear, does wholesale reform include adding more justices? [00:19:19] Josh Shapiro: I would be open to that, of course. You asked me about whether 13 is the right number. I think, in general, that is something that I am open to. [00:19:27] Speaker 1: Why not keep it at nine? Is there a concern that next time Republicans are in control, that that could potentially backfire? [00:19:35] Josh Shapiro: Again, I think there has to be real reform, not based on the politics of a particular moment, but whether our court is responsive to the needs of the American people, whether it's nine, 11, 13, whether it is an age cap so that you have, you know, a quicker cycle of justices coming on and off the court. The point I'm trying to make to you in response to your questions is I am open to those reforms. [00:20:01] Speaker 1: Okay. Let's talk about health care, another major issue throughout the course of these midterm elections. Many of the candidates, now elected officials in your party, support Medicare for all. Do you support replacing private health insurance with Medicare for all? [00:20:19] Josh Shapiro: I think what is clear is that our health care system is broken. I think Obamacare did a good job of creating more access. It did not do a great job of creating more affordability, and things have gotten even more expensive under Donald Trump. You layer on top of that the fact that they are knocking millions and millions of people, half a million in Pennsylvania, off of Medicaid, and so what you now have is a lack of access, and you have higher costs. A big reason for that is that our system has far too many middlemen in it. One example of that is PBMs, these pharmacy benefit managers, who in theory are supposed to negotiate better drug pricing in a state or in a community, and all they've done is jacked up prices and made money off of it. I'm getting to the heart of your question. I see what you're... You want to double down on that. The reality is, I don't think that we should eliminate private health insurance, but we cannot keep it the way it is, and I think for those who want Medicare as an option, they should be able to have that option. They should be able to purchase that buy-in or have it given to them based on their economic status. I think that will help create even more competition in our system and drive down prices, get those middlemen out of the system, and create more access and affordability. [00:21:42] Speaker 1: Given what you're saying, do you think it would be a mistake for this Congress to push for Medicare for All? [00:21:46] Josh Shapiro: Well, that's a question for the leadership, and it's a question for the membership of Congress. I'm not going to stand in judgment of that as a governor. You asked me what my opinion was, and I'm giving that to you. [00:21:56] Speaker 1: All right. Let's talk about a little bit of foreign policy in Israel, which emerged as a major flashpoint for Democrats in these midterms, as you know. Should the United States continue providing military aid to Israel without conditions? [00:22:11] Josh Shapiro: I think that question has now been answered by the president, by members of Congress of both parties, and seemingly by the leadership of the Israeli government. And look, I think going forward, America's national security interest still requires us to ensure there is stability in the Middle East. That is in our national security interest. And making sure that Israel or other countries have the ability to defend themselves against aggression, whether it's from Hamas, the Houthis, or any other terrorist organization that is able to fire missiles or rockets or bombs, that is an important part of our national security. But in terms of the aid that we have seen over the last number of decades, I think those days are over. [00:23:00] Speaker 1: And you're referencing the fact that President Trump, reportedly in a phone conversation with Prime Minister Netanyahu, agreed that it was time to, in the near future, start to wind down aid to Israel. You support that. [00:23:14] Josh Shapiro: It's clear that's where the consensus is. And I think it is, again, in our interest, in America, our national security interest, to have stability in the Middle East. Ideally, stability that leads to a Palestinian state living peacefully side by side with Israel, not run by Hamas, a terrorist organization, but by a duly elected government representing the will of the people. And then I think we need to focus on broadening that out even further to have normalized relations amongst the 20 or so Arab nations and have real stability in the Middle East. That is in the interest of the American people. [00:23:49] Speaker 1: All right. Let me talk to you a little bit about the future, if I might. Of course, the midterms are over, so it's sort of the unofficial start of the 2028 presidential cycle. I mean, [00:24:00] Josh Shapiro: it's been like 72 hours. [00:24:01] Speaker 1: I know, I know, and I know you keep getting this question. Let me try to ask you a version of it that you can answer. [00:24:08] Josh Shapiro: Okay. [00:24:08] Speaker 1: As you sit here today, are you more likely than not to run for president in 2028? [00:24:15] Josh Shapiro: I mean, look, first of all, I'm humbled you'd even have me on your program, let alone ask me that question. And I appreciate the support we have received in Pennsylvania, overwhelmingly, from Democrats, Republicans, Independents. I'm also grateful for the opportunity to do something that Democratic governors in my lifetime have not been able to do, and that is govern with a legislative trifecta. So a big part of my focus right now is on figuring out how we advance policies like raising the minimum wage and many other things that have been blocked by Republicans who've controlled my legislature for generations. That's where my focus is. And maybe getting a little bit of sleep after the election. [00:24:54] Speaker 1: Sleep sounds good. Do you commit to serving your full four-year term? [00:24:58] Josh Shapiro: Well, I committed to run for governor, and that's the work I'm focused on doing. And if I've got something to say about my future, I'd love to come back on your show and talk about it. [00:25:07] Speaker 1: But not committing to serving out a full-four-year term? I mean, look, [00:25:10] Josh Shapiro: I am honored and humbled that I received the support of the people of Pennsylvania, and my only focus is on being their governor. [00:25:17] Speaker 1: I ask you because you are governor of arguably one of the biggest swing states. You just won it twice. Yes, and so there's a lot of focus on your future plans. You must be thinking about it. [00:25:30] Josh Shapiro: Look, I'm honored and humbled by that. But my job is to deliver for the people of Pennsylvania. My job is to set an example of what Democratic leadership can look like and make people's lives better, and that's the focus of my work. [00:25:43] Speaker 1: Congressman Clyburn, who's, of course, a kingmaker in the Democratic Party in the great state of South Carolina, says you called him after the midterms. Did you talk about 2028? [00:25:54] Josh Shapiro: I'm not going to get into our private conversation, but I'm thankful for his friendship. And, again, I think it's important for America to note that Republicans were trying to erase one of the greatest civil rights leaders of my time from Congress out of just a grossly nakedly political effort to try and squeeze an extra seat into what they hoped would be a majority, and it backfired. Clyburn got re-elected. We elected a U.S. senator there, another member of Congress. It backfired, and I'm thrilled that Congressman Clyburn is going to continue to be a leader in the House of Representatives. [00:26:33] Speaker 1: Former Vice President Kamala Harris has said she is considering a potential run for president in 2028. You were, of course, on her VP shortlist. Do you think she should run again? [00:26:45] Josh Shapiro: I mean, if she wants to run, she absolutely should run. She's an important voice in our party. And let's be very clear. Our party has gone through an era where their options were limited and restricted by insiders. The last thing I want to do or anyone else should do is try and restrict that. If the vice president wants to run, she's got an important voice, she should run. [00:27:05] Speaker 1: Does Vice President Kamala Harris' decision on whether to run for president impact your decision at all? [00:27:12] Josh Shapiro: I think everyone should make their decisions on their timelines in a way that they see fit. [00:27:17] Speaker 1: So that's a no? [00:27:19] Josh Shapiro: That's my answer. [00:27:20] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:27:21] Speaker 1: Have you booked a ticket to the fish fry yet in South Carolina? [00:27:27] Josh Shapiro: No, I don't have any tickets to the fish fry. [00:27:29] Speaker 1: All right. One quickly on Eagles, in the Eagles, if you're right. Of course, big game coming up a little bit later on on Sunday when this is going to air. How are you feeling about the game? Obviously, a new quarterback is going to be on the field. [00:27:42] Josh Shapiro: Yeah, I don't feel great. I mean, we've got a quarterback. It's got a cannon for an arm. Hopefully, he can find his accuracy. Look, this has just been a tough year for the birds. The injuries have been devastating, but a lot of faith in Howie Roseman and Jeffrey Lurie to build the team back and will be a contender for a Super Bowl again soon. I think the real storyline in Philly is the Sixers. They are hot. LeBron James, King James, is in Philly, and we are playing great, and I think we got what it takes to go all the way. [00:28:11] Speaker 1: Well, as a Philly native, I'll be watching it all right along with you. Thank you so much. Governor Josh Shapiro, great to have you, as always. [00:28:17] Josh Shapiro: Thanks for having me, Kristen. [00:28:33] Speaker ?: We'll see you next time.