Full Ben Shapiro Free Speech Congressional Hearing

[0:00] I want to thank you all for joining us in the audience and certainly our witnesses today. [0:04] This is our second in a series of hearings to highlight the First Amendment. [0:10] The history of intellectual growth and discovery clearly demonstrates the need for unfettered [0:14] freedom, the right to think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the [0:18] unchallengeable. That quote, taken from the 1974 Woodward Report at Yale, summarizes the policy [0:25] that was, for years, the gold standard of what free speech on campus should look like. College [0:31] is a place for young minds to be intellectually bombarded with new challenging ideas. Unfortunately, [0:37] today on many campuses, students and faculty are forced into self-censorship out of a fear of [0:43] triggering, violating a safe space, a microaggression, or being targeted by a biased response team. [0:52] Restricting speech that does not conform to popular opinion contradicts the First Amendment [0:56] principles and the right to speak freely without regard to offensiveness. Shoutdowns, disinvitations, [1:03] and even violent writing, as we saw in the video, are some of the tactics used to silence opposing [1:08] views. In the most recent example of how not to promote free speech on campus, students and even [1:15] faculty at Evergreen State College berated and threatened the professor for questioning why a [1:20] new campus initiative could not be debated. The police eventually stepped in to warn the professor [1:26] it was no longer safe. Think about this. No longer safe for him to actually come to campus. The college [1:34] administrators stood by and did nothing. In fact, when asked to come and defend their speech, [1:39] speech policies at today's hearing, Evergreen's President George Bridges refused to testify, [1:45] suggesting such policies truly are indefensible. And he was not the only one to decline an invitation to [1:51] defend the policies that limit speech and ideas on our college campuses. I see in this past academic [1:58] year, violent disruptions and the silencing of opposing opinions are detrimental to an educational [2:03] environment where students can learn and engage in civil discourse. This has serious ramifications for our [2:10] public education system. This committee is committed to help colleges reinstate the freedom of speech as an [2:18] important protection. After all, it's no coincidence that the Constitution's framers prioritize the freedom [2:24] of speech in the First Amendment. With that, I would like to recognize Mr. Krishnamoorthy, the gentleman from [2:32] Illinois, for his opening statement. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Chairman Palmer and [2:39] Ranking Member Demings. And thank you all for being here today. Free speech is a cornerstone of this nation's [2:46] commitment to ensure that we have the most robust and wide open discussion on issues that affect the [2:51] public. Our First Amendment protections are among our most cherished rights. While certain restrictions [2:58] on the time, place, and manner of speech can exist, any law that seeks to limit the substance of speech [3:05] should be approached with great caution. Restrictions may exist on how, when, and where people say things, [3:13] but the government fundamentally should not restrict what people say. The Supreme Court has rightly held [3:19] that practically any peaceably expressed idea cannot be suppressed by law, no matter how unpopular, [3:26] repugnant, crude, or ill-informed it may be. However, free speech does not mean the right to be free from [3:33] criticism. As I have a right to state my view, you have a right to disagree vocally, passionately, and [3:39] peaceably. No idea should be free from criticism. This is why I am particularly concerned about a [3:47] potential bill that's going to be discussed today, a Wisconsin bill that would allow for the suspension [3:53] or expulsion of any University of Wisconsin student who engages in, quote, indecent, profane, boisterous, [4:01] obscene, unreasonably loud, or other disorderly conduct that interferes with the free expression of [4:07] others. This law does not merely seek to restrict the time, manner, or place of speech, but it threatens [4:16] students with disciplinary action for exercising their First Amendment rights. While nobody should [4:21] interfere with anyone else's free expression, this bill, as drafted, opens the door for the state [4:27] government to quash any form of student protest its officials do not agree with whenever officials [4:34] deemed the conduct to be, quote, unquote, indecent, quote, unquote, boisterous, or quote, unquote, [4:41] profane. Regardless of the intentions behind this bill, I am very concerned about the chilling effect [4:47] on the rights of students to speak out against the ideas of others with whom they disagree. Ironically, [4:52] while proponents of the Wisconsin bill claim that it is to protect free speech at the university, [4:58] the bill's threat of harsh discipline against students who express their opinions would have [5:03] precisely the opposite effect. The Anti-Defamation League, which has worked for over a century to [5:10] protect American civil rights and is represented here today, has raised legitimate concerns with [5:16] legislative efforts that would inhibit the free speech rights of students on any side of the debate. [5:23] As the ADL points out, protecting free speech on college campuses should not be partisan, [5:29] and most importantly, should not be legislated by Congress. Rather, it should be left in the hands [5:36] of the Academy. To that effect, it is critical that in looking to address the challenges of free speech, [5:42] we do not do the very thing some here today have criticized colleges in doing, suppressing certain [5:48] forms of speech that may not be popular or as offensive to others. As we examine the issue of free [5:54] speech at our nation's colleges, we are fortunate to be joined today by Mr. Fred Lawrence, the former [6:00] president of Brandeis University and who can speak from firsthand experience the challenges university [6:05] administrators face in balancing free speech rights on campuses. Mr. Lawrence understands the [6:11] complexities of running a university in a way that legislatures do not and can explain for us the [6:16] difficulties campuses face when addressing free speech challenges. Ironically, we have a situation here [6:22] where we see some of my colleagues advocating for more government intrusion in an effort to quell the [6:28] rights of students to challenge the ideas of speakers they may have profound disagreements with. But just [6:35] as important as it is for us to stand up for the rights of others to engage in speech that may be [6:40] deeply offensive to some, it is just as critical that we stand up for the rights of students to protest [6:45] and speak out against speech they disagree with. That isn't going to happen because of greater, more [6:51] restrictive legislation such as the Wisconsin Bill. It will happen because colleges and universities are [6:57] allowed the freedom and flexibility to encourage open expression among students and faculty. Thank you, [7:03] Mr. Chairman. Chairman. I think the gentleman now recognize the subcommittee chairman, Mr. Palmer. [7:15] I yield my time to the gentleman from North Carolina, Ms. Fox. Ladies recognize. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I [7:22] thank Chairman Palmer for giving me the opportunity to say a few words on this issue. I welcome everyone to this [7:31] joint subcommittee hearing today, which is a particular interest to so many of us. It's a real privilege for [7:38] me to continue to serve on this committee while serving as chairwoman of the House Committee on [7:43] Education, the workforce. Many of you know, I spent most of my adult life in higher education as both an [7:50] instructor and administrator on a college campus. Our founders believed that a free expression of ideas and [7:56] speech were an essential foundation to our nation and captured its importance in the First Amendment. [8:03] George Washington said it perfectly in 1783. If men or women, he might add today, are to be [8:12] precluded from offering their sentiments on a matter which may involve the most serious and alarming [8:17] consequences that can invite the consideration of mankind, reason is of no use to us. The freedom of [8:25] speech may be taken away and dumb and silent, we may be led like sheep to the slaughter. Throughout [8:32] our nation's history, we the people have defended our right to express our beliefs and opinions, [8:37] no matter how unpopular, without the fear of retribution. While the way in which we express ourselves [8:44] has changed since our nation's founding, Americans still hold tight to the belief that freedom of speech [8:50] and expression are fundamental to who we are as a people. According to a 2015 Pew Research poll, 95% of [9:00] Americans believe that people should be able to make statements that publicly criticize the government. [9:06] Roughly 70% of Americans also considered it very important for people to be able to use the internet [9:12] without government censorship on matters of free speech. Apparently, this poll did not take into account [9:18] individuals on college campuses who seem to disagree. We're seeing a steady rise in anti-speech attacks [9:26] on students, faculty and invited speakers on our campuses. Pressure from students, faculty and free [9:32] speech advocates has put college administrators in a difficult position and the committee understands [9:39] their frustration. It is difficult to manage a campus when dealing with campus protests and other [9:45] disruptions by students or other members of the campus community who simply do not want a certain point [9:50] of view expressed on their campuses. College campuses are supposed to be places where students and [9:57] instructors are able to share share in diverse conversations on any topic in order to better [10:03] understand our society. In my years in the classroom, I love to see students thoughtfully and respectfully [10:11] discuss the conflicting ideas. I believe to these days, to this day, those discussions helped many students [10:18] learn to express themselves. As a lifelong learner, they helped me too. I've often told people that the [10:25] greatest compliment I ever received as a teacher was at the end of the semester evaluations when many of my [10:35] students would say she taught me how to think. There just is no greater compliment than that. When we stifle [10:45] free speech at our institutions of higher education, we are depriving students of an open environment of [10:51] thoughts and opinions. This is especially true for public colleges and universities that receive direct [10:58] taxpayer funding. Our public institutions of higher education should not be engaged in activities that would [11:06] stifle any constitutionally protected speech of a member or invited guest in the educational community. [11:14] And while private colleges and universities do not have the same constitutional obligations as their [11:20] public counterparts, I hope we can all agree that they should do what they can to ensure their campuses [11:26] foster robust discussions that include all views. Today's joint subcommittee hearing will explore these [11:33] concerns as well as how colleges may address these issues without unconstitutional restrictions on free [11:40] speech. The First Amendment promises a freedom of expression for all Americans and is the duty of [11:47] Congress to ensure that those rights are protected on the campuses of our public colleges and universities. [11:54] While Congress is not in the business of defining what is and what is not protected by the First [12:00] Amendment, we must guarantee this fundamental right is upheld. I look forward to hearing from our [12:06] witnesses and members today as we have this important discussion on one of our nation's most central [12:12] rights. And again, I thank the gentleman for yielding. I thank the gentlelady for her statement and [12:18] her service as the education and workforce chairman. And we now recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, [12:22] Ms. Demings. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to our ranking member, Mr. Christa Morphy as well. [12:32] Good morning, everyone. And thank you all so much for being here. I grew up in Jacksonville, Florida. My mother [12:40] was a maid and my father a janitor. But in spite of their lack of material wealth, they gave me everything they [12:49] had to support me and prepare me mentally, physically and spiritually to succeed. I am the youngest of [13:01] seven children, but the first in my family to go to college. My parents life lessons helped to guide me [13:09] in college when it was clear that there were some who did not want me there. When I joined the Orlando [13:16] Police Department, when women and other minorities were still trying to find their way, my parents' life [13:23] lessons guided me. And even here, they still guide me in the United States Congress. I've taken three [13:31] oaths in my lifetime. One as a young police officer in 1984, one when I was sworn in as the police chief, [13:43] and the third when I was sworn in as a member to serve in the 115th session of the U.S. House of [13:50] Representatives. In each oath, I swore that I would protect and defend the Constitution of the United [13:59] States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. I have taken each oath very, very seriously. As a law [14:09] enforcement officer, I had several occasions to provide security for many groups while they exercised [14:16] their First Amendment rights. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the neo-Nazi movement. There I was, [14:26] providing much needed protection. And if anyone, someone, anyone had tried to harm them in any way, [14:34] I would have risked my life to protect them. Not because I agreed with their speech, [14:42] but because I agreed with their right to speak. Their right as guaranteed by the First Amendment. [14:51] I appreciate this opportunity to shine a light on the real clear and present danger facing colleges [14:59] and universities around the nation. The problem is not high profile speakers like Ann Coulter. The clear [15:07] and present danger is the increase in white supremacist hate groups on campuses and the targeting and [15:14] harassing of students because of their race, religion, gender and sexual identity. For the 2016 and 2017 [15:24] school year, the Anti-Defamation League reported that students, faculty and staff on 110 American [15:32] college campuses were confronted by 159 separate incidents of racist flyers and stickers. The Southern [15:41] Poverty Law Center reported that in 10 days alone after last year's election, there were 140 incidents of [15:49] hate bias attacks on university campuses. Most recently, on May 1st of this year at American [15:58] University, bananas tied with nooses were hung across the campus after the school elected its first [16:05] African-American student government president, Taylor Dumpson, who I understand is with us today. Now, [16:11] I was proud when Taylor was elected because it demonstrated our progress, much needed progress as a nation, [16:19] but the words AKA free were written on the bananas referring to the predominantly African-American [16:27] sorority of which Taylor is a member. Taylor was also subjected to a cyberbullying campaign by a white [16:34] supremacist group on social media. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating these unprotected [16:40] illegal expressions of speech that Taylor was subjected to as a hate crime. The operative word here is crime. [16:49] Mr. Chairman, I would ask that a written statement from Taylor about the hate speech attacks and harassment [16:54] she was subjected to on the campus of American University be included in the hearing. [16:59] Not objection. Thank you so much. As Taylor explained, and I quote, I applied to college like all of our children do. [17:07] When I applied, I thought I would meet new people and learn new things, not be the victim of a racially motivated hate crime [17:16] and cyber bullying that would interrupt my academics and disrupt my mental, emotional and physical health. [17:22] As stated earlier, what happened in Taylor's case is being investigated by the FBI. Mr. Chairman, [17:30] public safety trumps everything. For students like Taylor, the issue of free speech on college campuses [17:37] isn't a right or left issue. Whether it's about criminal acts being wrapped in banners of free speech, [17:45] it is knowing that the symbols and language from 400 years of torture and terror are enough to strike fear [17:52] in the hearts of every student of color. As we examine the issue of free speech on college campuses, [17:59] let's keep the focus on addressing some of the real danger, which are any acts of violence, attempts to [18:04] threaten, intimidate, bully, harass or violate any laws that this nation holds quite dear. For even with the [18:13] guiding principles of the United States Constitution, we are a nation of laws and public safety always [18:21] has been and still is my number one concern. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And I yield back. [18:28] Thank you, gentlelady. Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare recess at any time. [18:33] And the chair will also hold open for five legislative days for any members who'd like to submit a written [18:39] statement. Finally, the chair welcomes Mr. Blum, Mr. DeSantis this morning. And the chair also notes the [18:45] presence of Congressman Brad Thompson and Mr. Rooney. Without objection, these members are welcome to [18:50] fully participate in today's hearing. I want to show one other quick video clip before we get to our panel. [18:55] And this is about 20 seconds. We can show that real quick. Okay, so, so the priority is if they stay in that room, [19:09] if they aren't in that room, then we did something wrong. So you don't need to watch that door, watch all the doors, [19:14] watch the windows. You need to keep your eyes on them. And if somebody needs to go in that room [19:17] real quick to make sure that there's no way of getting that phone for them to leave. That's the [19:21] number one priority until we get our good answers. Are you all clear? Cool. Thank you. [19:32] This is where it all ends. You start with the safe spaces, safe zone, trigger warnings, microaggressions, [19:38] bias response teams, and even riots as we saw in the first video. And where does it end? It ends with [19:44] students holding hostage a president of the university, and he has to ask permission to go [19:50] to the men's room. That's why we're having this hearing. That's why we're highlighting the attacks [19:55] on the first amendment. And now I'm pleased to recognize our distinguished panel. I'd like to [20:00] start with Ms. Nadine Strawson, law professor at NYU University, and also a long career working with the [20:06] American Civil Liberties Union. We welcome you here, Ms. Strawson. Mr. Ben Shapiro, editor-in-chief of the [20:12] Daily Wire, and columnist. We appreciate you being here as well. Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Adam Carolla, comedian, [20:19] radio personality, and TV host. Welcome as well. Dr. Zimmerman, former provost and vice president [20:27] for academic affairs at Evergreen State College, the college that was just part of that last video clip, [20:34] and more importantly, former president Oberlin College in the fourth district of Ohio. We welcome you, [20:41] Mr. Zimmerman as well, and Mr. Frederick Lawrence with the Anti-Defamation League. Welcome as well. [20:46] That's the committee rules. Pursuant to committee rules, we ask you all to stand and be sworn in. [20:51] So if you please stand, raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony [20:58] you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Let the record show [21:03] that everyone answered in the affirmative. Ms. Strawson, you know how this works. You've done it before. You get [21:08] five minutes more or less. We appreciate less, but somewhere in that vicinity would be great. [21:12] And you are now recognized for your five minutes. Thank you so much, Chairman Jordan and other [21:18] distinguished committee members. I am so grateful for your eloquent, fervent commitment to freedom of [21:26] speech, especially on college campuses where it's particularly important and for including me in [21:32] these important hearings. As the opening statements have made clear, all of us share a general neutral [21:40] commitment to freedom of speech in the abstract, but the difficulty is when we hear ideas that we hate. [21:51] It becomes very hard, as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes enjoined us all to do, to defend freedom even for [21:59] the thought that we hate. So I urge all students and others on campus to respect freedom of speech for [22:10] speakers they strongly disagree with. But I also, picking up on the point that Mr. Krishnamurti made, [22:19] also firmly defend freedom of speech for protesters, for peaceful, non-disruptive protesters against [22:29] those speakers. This is the genius of the First Amendment. I share the concern that Ms. Demings raised and [22:36] also that Mr. Jordan raised about violations of law, you know, the legal infractions, the crimes that were [22:45] committed against the administrators that we saw, but crimes including hate crimes that are committed [22:52] against students. We do not need to choose between robust freedom of speech and these countervailing [23:02] concerns of equality and respecting law and order. The question is, what is the appropriate response [23:11] to ideas that we disagree with, including hateful ideas? And here, I'm happy to say that the Anti-Defamation [23:18] League, the Southern Poverty Law Center, the ACLU, we are all on the same page that we need not and should [23:25] not sacrifice robust freedom of speech in order to counter hateful ideas and hate crimes. In fact, the [23:36] appropriate answer, as the Supreme Court has said, is more speech, counter speech. And interestingly enough, [23:43] evidence demonstrates that it is far more effective than censorship in robustly, effectively countering [23:53] ideas that we disagree with. I'm working on a book right now, and this is the whole theme of the book, [23:58] summed up in the title, HATE, all caps, because that is a very serious problem in this country. But the [24:05] subtitle is fighting it with free speech, not censorship. And we really have to educate the [24:14] activists, the students on today's campuses. I have to say, as an activist from the 60s and 70s, [24:21] I'm thrilled by the resurgence of student activism in support of racial justice and social justice. [24:27] I'm really heartened by their bringing in voices who were traditionally marginalized and disempowered. [24:34] But I am disheartened by their apparent belief that freedom of speech is an enemy. Nothing could be [24:41] further from the truth. The whole struggle for racial justice throughout the history of this country, [24:48] starting with the abolitionists going through the civil rights movement, and every movement for social [24:54] justice, including for women's rights and LGBT rights, has depended critically on robust freedom [25:01] of speech, including for ideas that were controversial and hated. Now, in addition to misunderstanding how [25:10] essential freedom of speech, including for hated ideas and hateful speech is, there's too much [25:16] misunderstanding about what the First Amendment actually means. We hear too many statements about [25:23] so-called hate speech, which, by the way, is not a legal term of art. It has no accepted definition. [25:31] So it is generally used to describe speech that conveys hateful ideas on the basis of certain personal [25:38] characteristics that traditionally have been basis of discrimination, race, religion, gender, and sexual [25:44] orientation, among others. We hear constantly statements that hate speech is not free speech. Absolutely wrong. [25:52] But we also hear equally incorrect statements that hate speech is absolutely protected. Also [26:00] equally wrong. The genius of our Supreme Court decisions on this issue, and here the Court has been [26:06] very unified from right to left, setting a model that we should all emulate in the rest of the world. This is not [26:12] a partisan or ideological issue. They have laid down two core free speech principles. One, when hate speech or any [26:22] other dislike speech may not be punished, and one, when it may be punished. And I think they are brilliant, [26:29] and make great common sense, including in this context. Number one, speech may never be censored just because [26:36] we revile its ideas. That's called viewpoint neutrality. Number two, and this picks up on points that Ms. Demings in [26:45] particular made and was also made by other speakers, the opening speakers, that if the speech does cause what is [26:55] often called a clear and present danger of harm, including instilling a reasonable fear that you will be [27:05] attacked, the incidents of the nooses, that constituted targeted harassment and threats which may and should be [27:14] punished consistent with existing free speech principles. So I think if people understood both the common sense [27:22] distinction that our law draws between protecting ideas that we hate versus not protecting but strongly [27:32] punishing speech that actually directly causes imminent serious harm, then there would be much more acceptance [27:42] of it. And I'd like to and support for it neutrally. I'd like to end by quoting, there are so many that I could quote, [27:50] prominent minority leaders who recently have spoken out against censorship on campus, not only because it is wrong in [28:01] principle, but also because it is disempowering to the student activists who are seeking greater justice. And there are many [28:10] examples. One would be former President Obama himself, but I'm going to quote somebody who was actually a university president, [28:18] Ruth Simmons, former president of Brown University, the first African American president of any Ivy League university, [28:26] and the first female president of Brown. She said, I believe that learning at its best is the antithesis of comfort. So if you come to this campus for comfort, [28:36] I would urge you to walk through yon iron gate. But if you seek betterment for yourself, for your community and posterity, [28:44] stay and fight. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Strossen. Mr. Shapiro. It's an honor to testify. It's an honor to testify before you here today. The reason that I'm with you is that I speak on dozens of college campuses every year. So I have some firsthand experience with the anti-First Amendment activities that have been taking places on the college campuses. I've encountered anti-free speech measures, [29:04] anti-free speech measures, administrative cowardice, even physical violence at campuses ranging from California State University of Los Angeles to University of Wisconsin at Madison, which is driving the legislation that Ms. [29:15] Demmings was talking about, to Penn State University, to UC Berkeley, and I am not alone. In order to understand what's been going on at some of our college campuses, [29:23] it's necessary to explore the ideology that provides the impetus for a lot of the protesters who violently obstruct events, pull fire alarms, assault professors, and even other students, [29:32] and the impetus for administrators who all too often humor these protesters. Free speech is under assault because of a three-step argument made by the advocates and justifiers of violence. [29:43] The first step is they say that the validity or invalidity of an argument can be judged solely by the ethnic, sexual, racial, or cultural identity of the person making the argument. [29:53] The second step is that they claim those who say otherwise are engaging in what they call verbal violence. And the final step is they conclude that physical violence is sometimes justified in order to stop such verbal violence. [30:02] So let's examine each of these three steps in turn. First, the philosophy of intersectionality. This philosophy now dominates college campuses, as well as a large segment, unfortunately, of today's Democratic Party, and suggests that straight white Americans are inherently the beneficiaries of white privilege, and therefore cannot speak on certain policies, since they have not experienced what it's like to be black or Hispanic or gay or transgender. [30:22] Or a woman. This philosophy ranks the value of a view, not based on the logic or merit of the view, but on the level of victimization in American society experienced by the person espousing the view. [30:33] Therefore, if you're an LGBT black woman, your view of American society is automatically more valuable than that of a straight white male. [30:39] The next step in the logic is obvious. If a straight white male or anybody else who ranks lower on the victimhood scale says something contrary to the viewpoint of the higher ranking intersectionality identity, [30:51] that person has engaged in a microaggression. As NYU social psychologist Jonathan Haidt writes, [30:56] microaggressions are small actions or word choices that seem on their face to have no malicious intent, but that are thought of as a kind of violence nonetheless. [31:03] You don't have to actively say anything insulting to microaggress. Somebody merely needs to take offense. [31:09] If, for example, you say that society ought to be colorblind, you're microaggressing certain identity groups who have been victimized by a non-colorblind society. [31:16] Note, microaggressions, as the name suggests, are not merely insults. They are aggressions. They are the equivalent to physical violence. [31:23] Just two weeks ago, psychologist Lisa Feldman Barrett of Northeastern University published an essay in the New York Times suggesting that words should be seen as physical violence because they can cause stress and stress causes physical harm. [31:34] Thus, Feldman suggested it is reasonable, scientifically speaking, to ban or restrict speech you do not like at your school. This is both inane and dangerous. [31:42] That's because it leads to the final logical step. Words you don't like deserve to be fought physically. [31:46] When I spoke at California State University, L.A., one professor threatened students who sponsored me by offering to fight them. [31:52] He then posted a slogan on the door of his office stating, the best response to microaggression is macroaggression. [31:57] As Haidt writes, this is why the idea that speech is violence is so dangerous. [32:01] It tells the members of a generation already beset by anxiety and depression that the world is a far more violent and threatening place than it really is. [32:09] It tells them that words, ideas, speakers can literally kill them. [32:13] Even worse, at a time of rapidly rising political polarization in the United States, it helps a small subset of that generation justify political violence. [32:20] Indeed, protesters all too often engage in physically violent disruption when they believe their identity group is under verbal attack by someone, usually conservative, but not always. [32:29] Not only do some administrators look the other way at Middlebury College, Cal State, L.A., Berkeley, Evergreen. [32:35] Actual crimes were committed and almost nobody has been arrested. [32:38] But they actively forbid events from moving forward, creating a heckler's veto. [32:42] The notion that if you are physically violent enough, you can get administrators to kowtow to you, to bow before you by canceling an event you disagree with altogether. [32:50] All of this destroys free speech. [32:52] But just as importantly, it turns students into snowflakes, craven and pathetic, looking for an excuse to be offended so they can earn points in the intersectionality Olympics and then use those points as a club with which to beat opponents. [33:03] A healthy nation requires an emotionally and intellectually vigorous population ready to engage in open debate at all times. [33:10] Shielding college students from opposing viewpoints makes them simultaneously weaker and more dangerous. [33:16] We must fight that process at every step. [33:19] And that begins by acknowledging that whatever we think about America and where we stand, we must agree on this fundamental principle. [33:25] All of our views should be judged on their merits, not on the color or sex or sexual orientation of the speaker. [33:30] And those views should never be banned on the grounds that they offend someone. [33:33] Thanks so much. [33:34] Mr. Shapiro, would the professors you cited in your testimony view your four minute and 48 second opening statement as a microaggression? [33:43] I assume that some of them would. [33:45] I mean, apparently college students do all the time. [33:47] Since when I speak there, I've been I think they've been riots and such. [33:50] I think they definitely will, which is kind of the sign of the times, I guess. [33:53] Mr. Corolla, you're recognized for five minutes. [33:55] Thank you. [33:56] It's an honor to be asked to speak in front of you all. [33:59] First, this quick piece of business. [34:01] Do we get to keep these pads? [34:03] This is going to be huge. [34:06] And not that I'm going to, but what do you reckon they'll get on eBay? [34:13] I'm not saying I'm going to. [34:15] I'm just pure curiosity. [34:17] I'm not as eloquent as Mr. Shapiro. [34:22] I sort of speak in beats and off the top of my head. [34:26] I've written a few down for you all today. [34:28] First off, I come from a very blue collar background. [34:32] I grew up in North Hollywood, California. [34:35] My dad was a school teacher and my mom received welfare and food stamps [34:42] and told me very importantly when I was young, when I asked her if she would get a job, [34:47] she said, and lose my welfare benefits. [34:50] No, thank you. [34:51] Which taught me a very valuable lesson, which was never to listen to my mom. [34:56] All right. [34:57] I ended up being a carpenter and then a boxing instructor. [35:01] And met Jimmy Kimmel when I taught him to box for a morning zoo stunt [35:07] and eventually made my way onto TV and radio. [35:11] In the early days of my career, I toured the country with Dr. Drew [35:16] when we were on Loveline together, a syndicated radio program also on MTV. [35:20] And we must have played a hundred college campuses with nary a word of negativity [35:28] and no safe spaces and no stuffed animals being handed out. [35:33] Simply went there, set our peace. [35:35] Many controversial ideas were exchanged. [35:38] And that's just what they were exchanged. [35:41] And then we got our paychecks and went home. [35:43] And 15 years later, I went out with Dennis Prager, conservative talk show host, and attempted to do a show at Cal State Northridge, [35:54] where my mother was a actual graduate from with a Chicano studies degree, believe it or not. [36:01] So she's rolling in dough about now. [36:06] And they pulled the plug on it. [36:08] They gave us no good reason why we couldn't speak there. [36:12] And we actually had to get attorneys involved to go back and speak at a later date. [36:18] We're talking a lot about the kids. [36:21] And I think they're just that, kids. [36:23] We are the adults. [36:25] And I don't think we are doing the children. [36:28] I mean, these are 18 and 19-year-old kids that are at these college campuses. [36:34] They grew up dipped in Purell playing soccer games where they never kept score and watching Wawa Wubzy. [36:41] And we're asking them to be mature. [36:43] We need the adults to start being the adults. [36:46] Studies have shown that if you take people and you put them in a zero-gravity environment, like astronauts, they lose muscle mass. [36:57] They lose bone density. [36:59] We're taking these kids in the name of protection, we're putting them in a zero-gravity environment, and they're losing muscle mass and bone density. [37:08] They need to live in a world that has gravity. [37:11] When you need to expose your children to germs and dirt and the environment to build up their immune system. [37:19] Our plan is put them in a bubble, keep them away from everything, and somehow they'll come out stronger when they emerge from the bubble. [37:28] Well, that's not happening. [37:30] Children are the future, but we are the present, and we're the adults, and we need to act like it. [37:38] And I feel that what's going on on these campuses is we need law and order. [37:50] We need to bring back law and order, but I think if we just had order, we wouldn't need law. [37:58] So could we just bring back order, and could the faculty and administration on these campuses act like faculty and administration? [38:10] And most importantly, adults who are in charge of these kids who need some gravity in their life. [38:20] Thank you. [38:22] Well said. [38:23] Thank you. [38:24] Thank you, Mr. Carolla. [38:25] And Mr. Zimmerman, or Dr. Zimmerman, excuse me, you are now recognized for your opening statement. [38:28] Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to speak with you about the importance of freedom of speech on college campuses. [38:35] I begin by making two points that are intricately related to the issue. [38:39] First, I believe it's important to recognize that racism in American society, both overt racism as well as more subtle but no less important forms of institutional racism, is very real and needs to be addressed. [38:51] Second, nothing that anyone might say today should undermine the critical role that colleges and universities play in American society. [38:59] While these institutions aren't perfect, and while those of us in the academy need to work toward improvement, higher education has been and remains the single best way for individuals to dramatically improve their socioeconomic status. [39:12] Beyond that personal benefit, there's ample evidence demonstrating that society is richer when it's well populated by an educated citizenry. [39:21] I've spent almost 40 years working at institutions as a faculty member and administrator promoting the value of a liberal arts education. [39:29] Such an education should teach students how to think rather than what to think. [39:34] It should teach them how to differentiate facts from opinions, and it should teach them how to articulate their thoughts cogently rather than repeating those of others. [39:43] As we've all seen, there have been problems on American campuses. [39:46] Some voices have not been welcomed, while others have been violently excluded. [39:50] Let me say this as clearly as I can. [39:53] This is wrong, and it must stop. [39:55] But what we don't need is additional legislation. [39:59] We currently have all the tools we need to fix the problem, if we have the courage to use them. [40:04] College administrators need the courage to do what is right, to stand for principles rather than expediency, and to risk alienating some in the name of those principles. [40:13] On campuses where such strong leadership exists, conflict rarely escalates to crisis. [40:19] At the same time, faculty members need to hold their colleagues accountable. [40:24] The problems we've seen on campuses are not, I'm confident, supported by the vast number of faculty members. [40:30] But most faculty have opted to remain silent, to censor themselves, and therefore they've ceded control of their institutions to a small but vocal minority. [40:40] This silence is understandable. [40:42] Speaking out distracts people from their important work of teaching and scholarship, while often bringing them into conflict with their colleagues. [40:49] Asking faculty to encourage civil discussion and to celebrate a range of voices and perspectives is asking a great deal of them, more than we see in our political discourse. [40:58] But if diverse opinions are not celebrated on campuses, where we're supposed to be trafficking in ideas, I doubt they'll find any welcoming environment. [41:06] When we shut out voices, we shut out ideas, and serious consequences ensue. [41:12] Part of the problem on campuses, I believe, stems from a rise in the belief that all knowledge is socially constructed, and that there are no absolute truths. [41:21] Or the concept of postmodernism, as it is known in academic circles. [41:26] Why has this idea made a comeback now? [41:28] One possibility is that the relentless disparagement many have leveled on disciplines in the humanities, arts, and social sciences has led to a backlash. [41:36] It shouldn't be surprising that when practitioners see their fields portrayed as useless by those who promote only STEM, science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, [41:45] they push back, and the resistance often manifests itself as antipathy towards science. [41:50] When we marginalize certain voices, we all lose. [41:54] We need to recognize that disciplines each bring something important to our understanding of the world. [41:59] Privileging some fields over others yields a fragmented and incomplete picture. [42:05] I say this as a scientist. As important as science is, it certainly isn't all there is. [42:10] Much of the tension on campuses today comes from a similar historical silencing of certain voices. [42:15] Voices of the marginalized, voices of people of color, the disabled, those with non-traditional sexual orientations, the poor, and many others. [42:24] As these individuals rightfully try to insert their voices into conversations, tensions arise. [42:30] But these voices deserve to be a part of the conversation. [42:33] The comparison between racism, sexism, homophobia, and other equally terribly discriminatory behaviors, [42:40] and a lack of appreciation for certain academic disciplines should be seen only as a metaphor. [42:46] In the former case, people's lives and their experiences are discounted. [42:50] Without those voices, we all suffer. Obviously not equally, but we all suffer. [42:56] The goal has to be to find ways to celebrate ideas, a wide array of ideas, and the people who hold them. [43:03] But such a celebration requires not only that more voices be at the table, but that all of us listen to those voices. [43:10] Looking beyond oneself, listening to what others have to say, understanding a perspective other than your own, [43:16] even if you don't agree with that perspective, after all, is what a liberal arts education is all about. [43:21] Thank you. [43:22] Thank you. [43:24] Thanks, the gentleman. Mr. Lawrence. [43:25] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, ranking members, and distinguished members of the committee. [43:29] I am the tenth secretary and the CEO of the Phi Beta Kappa Society, [43:33] and I say that I am delighted to hear Dr. Zimmerman's celebration of the liberal arts and sciences. [43:38] Phi Beta Kappa was founded, like our nation, in 1776, and dedicated to the notion of free expression, free inquiry, [43:44] and that the liberal arts and sciences would bring us to a better place. [43:48] Indeed, it has in this country. [43:50] I am honored today to appear on behalf of the Anti-Defamation League, of which I am a national commissioner [43:55] and former chair of the National Legal Affairs Committee. [43:59] The challenge of free expression on our campuses has never seemed greater, and I am grateful for the opportunity [44:04] to address it today before this committee. [44:06] I know from my years as a law school dean and as a university president that these challenges come in all directions [44:12] and all contexts. [44:14] They come from the left, and they come from the right. [44:17] Mr. Lawrence, just pull the mic a little closer. [44:19] Pull your mic a little closer to you there. [44:21] Yeah, we're talking. [44:22] Did you miss any of the good stuff, Mr. Chairman? [44:24] Got it all. [44:25] Got it all. [44:26] Keep going, brother. [44:28] I want to make sure that my board heard everything, Mr. Chairman. [44:31] The challenges of free speech come from the left, and they come from the right. [44:35] They involve students, they involve faculty, and they involve those outside the campus who affect the community [44:41] as invited speakers and sometimes as uninvited agitators. [44:45] Given our current polarization in our society, it is perhaps no surprise that this issue presents itself with such urgency on our campuses today. [44:54] Public campuses and private small liberal arts schools and large research universities. [44:58] At this moment, it is especially important to clarify first principles pertaining to our democracy's core values of free expression as they manifest themselves on our campus. [45:08] And I would articulate two such principles. [45:10] First, and I think there is broad agreement in this panel today on this, robust free expression and free inquiry are central for the mission of our colleges and universities. [45:20] The limits of such expression are way out on the margins of expressive activity, and they involve behavior that threatens or instills fear in a victim or victims. [45:30] Hate speech is protected. Hate crimes are not. [45:34] The second principle is that constitutionally protected hate speech still causes harm to members of our community. [45:43] There is a moral imperative, therefore, for campus leaders vigorously to criticize hate speech. [45:48] Not to suppress it, not to prohibit it, but to identify it for what it is and to criticize it. [45:55] These two principles lead me to a third conclusion, that efforts to legislate bright-line solutions to subtle and complex situations are misguided and they are doomed to fail. [46:07] Campus administrators must be given the discretion to handle cases of hate speech and to judge when cases have crossed the line into hate crimes. [46:16] If we are to do our job, as Congresswoman Fox said, to teach our students how to think, that must be left in the hands of those on campus who are best equipped to make those decisions. [46:26] Let me elaborate briefly on the two principles. [46:30] Free expression is a core value of our system of government and our society, and it is especially true on our campuses. [46:36] Most, if not all, of our campuses share a common mission to discover and create knowledge and to transmit that knowledge through our teaching and our scholarship. [46:45] For this mission, free expression and free inquiry are essential. [46:50] I therefore start from the presumption that speech on campus and writings on campus are protected, but this is not a presumption without a limit. [46:59] Where should the limit for expression be? [47:01] Where does protected hateful speech cross over into being behavior that a university may prohibit and sanction? [47:09] As is so often the case in the law, for example, in basic principles of criminal law, we do best to focus on the actor's intent. [47:16] The division between that which we may protect and that which we may prohibit should be based on the intent of the actor. [47:22] Is the intent to communicate, however hateful the idea, or is the intent to intimidate and threaten a particular victim? [47:29] A recent example that helps make this point referred to by ranking member Dennings, and that refers to the statement of Ms. Taylor Dumpson, seated behind me in the room today, makes the point. [47:44] As the ranking member said after her election as the first black woman to hold the position of president of the student government at American University, [47:51] She was the victim of targeted, hate-motivated actions, bananas hung with nooses with the letters of an African-American sorority. [47:58] This reaches beyond the boundaries of free expression to a hate crime and has no place on an American campus. [48:05] To be sure, not all hateful speech is similarly threatening and prescribable. Much is protected. [48:11] What is the proper response when hateful speech that is protected occurs on our campuses? [48:18] Here, I believe, as Professor Strassen said at the very beginning, we do well to look to Justice Louis Brandeis' famous dictum in the case of Whitney against California, [48:28] where he said, the answer to hateful or offensive speech is not enforced silence, it is more speech. [48:36] And in the face of hate speech on campuses, the call for more speech is not merely an option. [48:40] It is a moral obligation on behalf of our campus leaders on all sides. [48:45] We observe with alarm the disturbing increase in the number of cases of white supremacist activity on our campuses, [48:51] as has been well and disturbingly documented by the Anti-Defamation League. [48:56] But even then, the answer will generally not be the enforced silence of which Justice Brandeis warned. [49:02] The answer is to assert the highest values of our academic communities. [49:07] Doing so precisely in the context of how we debate and how we disagree is at the heart of the enterprise of a college or a university. [49:15] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [49:16] Thank you all for your eloquent testimony. [49:18] We appreciate that and, frankly, think Congress broke some new ground today. [49:21] First reference ever to Wawa Websey in a congressional hearing. [49:25] But we will start with the chairman of the Education and Workforce Committee, the gentlelady from North Carolina. [49:30] Thank you again, Mr. Chairman. [49:31] And I want to thank our witnesses again for being here. [49:34] As we all agree, free speech is fundamental to a free society. [49:38] It's astonishing to me that so many young adults today are willing to throw those constitutionally protected rights out the window just because they're on a college campus and may disagree with the content of what is being said. [49:52] However, it's not surprising that so many colleges are struggling without a handle of free speech rights on campus. [49:59] Mr. Zimmerman, you note your written testimony. [50:02] It's important for colleges and universities to continue to be a place where free exchange ideas, even though some may disagree, is allowed and even encouraged. [50:12] I strongly agree. [50:13] Can you discuss some of the challenges public colleges and university administrators face when trying to balance their constitutional responsibility to protect free speech with ensuring the safety of the campus community, particularly when opposition to that speech leads to threats of potential violence? [50:32] I can certainly try. [50:34] It's not an easy. [50:35] There's no simple answer to that. [50:37] The most important thing, I think, goes back to something Nadine Strausson said and has written about eloquently. [50:46] And that is, in American society and on campuses today, we don't have a good enough understanding of what the First Amendment actually means. [50:55] We need to educate each other within the academy and beyond the academy about the importance of freedom of speech. [51:01] So often on college campuses, there are two kinds of issues. [51:05] There are the internal issues that administrators are more easily able to deal with if they have the courage to do so. [51:11] And then there are the external issues when the attacks on freedom of speech come from external educators. [51:17] And that's much more difficult because administrators don't control those individuals. [51:23] Administrators have to have the courage to stand up and, as Mr. Lawrence has said, to speak out eloquently in favor of ideas that they are opposed to and make it clear. [51:36] And speak out in favor of the opportunity for those ideas to be expressed while making it clear that those ideas should not be expressed. [51:43] And to call the people who are saying those hateful words into question, not their right to say them, but their obligation not to say them if they want to live in a civil society. [51:54] So what administrators need to do is change the nature of the discourse, to ask for much more civil discourse. [52:01] And that doesn't mean closing down ideas. [52:02] It means respecting each other and the diversity of opinions that each of us should have. [52:07] Thank you very much. [52:09] Ms. Strassen, in your testimony, you discussed several instances where speech may be restricted because of specific, objectively demonstrable serious harm that it directly causes. [52:24] Can you expand on those instances and discuss how colleges and universities can appropriately draw the line? [52:31] And again, I appreciate all of you all coming today. [52:35] Too eager to talk. [52:39] Too eager to talk. [52:40] As one educator to another, I'm especially eager to answer that fine question. [52:45] The basic, the most important examples that would apply on campuses include what the law calls a genuine threat or a true threat and targeted harassment. [53:01] Now, we have to be very careful because we tend to use the word threat or harassment very loosely in everyday conversation. [53:10] And I am very concerned about students and even faculty members saying, I feel assaulted by that speech or even I feel, you know, that speech is committing violence against me. [53:20] No, no, no. [53:21] The test is appropriately narrow. [53:24] The element of intent, as Mr. Lawrence said, is very important. [53:28] When the speaker means to instill a reasonable fear, not a fear that someone subjectively feels, but a reasonable person in the position of the student who was targeted would reasonably feel fear of violence or harm. [53:47] That is a true threat. [53:48] And it doesn't, the speaker need not intend to actually carry out the threatened harm, but to instill the fear, which itself is intruding into the liberty. [53:58] So, and it's a very fact-specific determination, which is why I agree with Mr. Chris Namurti that we must not make this into a punitive matter because it is a matter that involves discretion and judgment. [54:14] You would look at all the facts and circumstances and certainly one of them, as Ms. Deming said, is the history that is associated with the expression. [54:24] The noose certainly would convey a reasonable fear of racist violence. [54:31] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [54:32] I yield back. [54:33] The ranking members recognize Mr. Krishnamurti. [54:35] Ms. Strassen, you're free to exercise your free speech rights to mispronounce my name. [54:42] That's perfectly okay. [54:43] The other day, I introduced myself. [54:45] I said, hi, my name is Raja Krishnamurti. [54:47] And someone said, Roger Christian Murphy. [54:49] Very nice to meet you. [54:50] So, I'm used to it. [54:52] You know, I think that the three principles that I'm hearing. [54:55] Look, I think there's room for us to come to agreement on a few principles that I'm hearing echoed in your excellent testimonies across the board. [55:04] First, I personally believe that Dr. Lawrence is absolutely right that college administrators should have maximum discretion to, you know, essentially enforce these free speech rights. [55:17] Both for those who are peacefully protesting and those who would show up and, as Mr. Shapiro said, you know, practice their viewpoints or espouse their viewpoints. [55:27] The second principle is kind of goes along the lines of what you're saying, Ms. Strassen, which is you have to have some principle that's equally applied to both sides. [55:39] And that is, is it the reasonable person test? [55:42] Would a reasonable person feel they are about to be attacked? [55:47] Or would they, a reasonable person perceive an intent to attack? [55:54] Et cetera. [55:55] And then the third principle, I think, is we don't want anything to border on violence, any kind of incitement to violence. [56:06] That is, that is why when Ms. Demings brought up the case of Taylor, who's with us in the audience. [56:14] I'm sorry, I, I, I forgot your last name, Ms. Taylor. [56:17] Ms. Humson. [56:18] Humson. [56:19] Thank you for, for coming. [56:21] I think that that particular episode, to me, I think as a reasonable person, hopefully most people would agree that is crossing a line into a place where, you know, there might be violence on its way. [56:37] And that's very, I'm very sorry that even happened to you. [56:41] At the same time, I'm disturbed when I see videos of people getting shouted down and shut down. [56:46] And so my question to the administrators, the people who are in the shoes trying to, of the college presidents and administrators who are trying to enforce these principles, Dr. Lawrence and Dr. Zimmerman. [56:57] I mean, how do you, A, prevent that kind of shouting down and, and, and, and just, you know, shut down of speech, which we saw. [57:06] And on the other hand, prevent what Ms. Demings, Congresswoman Demings talked about, which is that hate, that hate crime, in my view. [57:14] I mean, what's the, what are the challenges there? [57:17] And from a public policy standpoint, like, is there anything that you need in terms of tools to, to help in that particular area? [57:26] Well, let me start with the, the last question. [57:30] Is there anything else that, that we need, uh, besides the goodwill of the House of Representatives? [57:34] Uh, we certainly do not need more legislation in this area. [57:37] Um, I think the, the question of how do you deal with the, the conflict between, on the one hand, protecting students from hate crimes, [57:44] on the other hand, exposing students to troublesome ideas, even offensive ideas, and teaching them how to respond to it. [57:50] That, that is the challenge that we meet. [57:53] Uh, but you start, I think, by recognizing as a university administrator, that it is, those are not the only two options. [57:59] Either we protect speech and embrace it, or we prohibit speech. [58:03] There's this whole middle category that says speech is protected, it is encouraged, and university administrators also have first amendment rights, and also get to speak. [58:13] So in many cases, the answer is not to run to the extreme of shutting down an event. [58:19] If there is a, even, even a white supremacist on campus, if they are invited by a campus group, or in a state university, if they are entitled to be there by the state university rules, [58:29] then you don't shut it down, but you do counter it with, with comments of your own. [58:34] And the administration has to say, we have values in this university, and we represent all of our students of all backgrounds, and this is what we stand for. [58:41] And these are the high values of this university. [58:44] I, I know outside the context of the university, this sounds like thin stuff. [58:48] Within the university, on the campus, for those of us who spent our lives there, this is not thin stuff. [58:53] This is the real stuff. [58:54] This is where students and faculty are engaged in the life of the school on a daily basis. [58:58] So this is where Justice Brandeis really did have, have it right. [59:02] The answer is not enforced silence, but it is more speech. [59:05] And more speech is not just an option, it's a moral obligation. [59:08] Dr. Zimmerman, can I just add on to that? [59:10] Like what, has something changed in the last 10, 15 years, whereby the incidents that Congresswoman Demings talked about have been on the rise? [59:20] Especially as of late against many different minority groups. [59:25] And also what Mr. Shapiro is talking about as well. [59:28] I mean, has something changed that we need to be aware of? [59:32] What a great question. [59:33] Let me back up for one second and agree with Dr. Lawrence and say one other thing, and that is, you can't wait until one of these events happens. [59:42] You have to change the culture from the beginning. [59:44] Right, right. [59:45] You have to, the first day students come to campus, before they come to campus, they have to know they're coming to a place where they're going to be trafficking in ideas. [59:51] And some of those ideas, as so many of you have said, might be controversial and might make them uncomfortable. [59:57] But that's what makes them educated. [59:59] I guess that the deep, the real answer that I see to your wonderful question is, are we a less civil society in general than we used to be? [1:00:09] Are we, are we more at odds with one another? [1:00:12] Do we have a deeper misunderstanding and more distrust when we talk with people who disagree with us? [1:00:18] Are, are college campuses the epicenter of this or are they a reflection of what's going on in society? [1:00:24] And, you know, I, we're sitting here in, in house chambers, um, or a conference room. [1:00:29] The house doesn't interact with, the members don't interact with each other, at least publicly, very well often. [1:00:36] We on college campuses, students, faculty model the behavior we see. [1:00:40] And it's not that you are the problem, but you are part of American society. [1:00:44] We have all come to this, I think. [1:00:46] We need to collectively to come to a better understanding of how to disagree civilly and respectfully. [1:00:52] And unless we understand what our opponents are saying, we're never going to make cogent arguments against them. [1:00:58] We, we need to understand our position and we need to understand their position if we're going to make rational decisions. [1:01:05] Thank you. [1:01:07] Uh, Mr. Uh, Mr. Corolla, uh, we, we've heard from the other side. [1:01:12] We've heard from a couple of our witnesses about intent to cause violence. [1:01:15] We've heard the term agitator use. [1:01:16] We've heard, uh, that it's appropriate to criticize hate speech. [1:01:19] When you're on campus, do you engage in hate speech? [1:01:21] Well, that, that's, it's all in the ear of the beholder. [1:01:27] That's the problem and everyone's ears are getting super sensitive these days. [1:01:32] I express ideas and ideas. [1:01:34] I believe in an oftentimes jokes like, uh, Mr. K. [1:01:39] Did they charge you extra for the name plate? [1:01:42] You know, like I have a wrap around and you bring a van to the car wash. [1:01:47] They charge you more. [1:01:48] I just figured with 128 letters there. [1:01:51] Uh, I, uh, you know, I, I, I, I try to be a little more philosophical about all this stuff. [1:01:57] And, um, I, I was at a Home Depot in Glendale, California, two days ago, standing in the tool department. [1:02:05] And a Taylor Swift song came on and I was initially agitated. [1:02:11] Um, I just didn't feel like it was good thematically for me to be looking at Roto Hammers with Taylor Swift, [1:02:18] talking about how hot she was, uh, pumping, uh, above my head like a halo. [1:02:23] But all I did was keep shopping, keep walking. [1:02:28] I realized some people like this music. [1:02:30] Some people don't like this music. [1:02:32] It's the prerogative of whoever manages the Home Depot to play Taylor Swift at that time. [1:02:39] I didn't complain. [1:02:40] I didn't throw something at the speaker and I didn't start a fire. [1:02:44] I just got my tools paid and left. [1:02:48] And I just thought if more people could do that with ideas they disagree with or people they disagree with or music they disagree with, [1:02:57] it's not an endorsement of Taylor Swift. [1:03:00] It's I have a life to lead. [1:03:02] I need a Roto Hammer. [1:03:04] And I don't personally hold the manager of this Home Depot. [1:03:08] Like nothing against him. [1:03:09] If he wants to play, he or she wants to play Taylor Swift. [1:03:13] And I think if people could just sort of have that in their mind, and I'm not saying don't have an opinion, [1:03:20] and I'm not saying don't voice your opinion, but when other people are voicing their opinion or singing their song, [1:03:27] sometimes it's time just to grab your Roto Hammer and head for the parking lot. [1:03:31] And your appearances on campuses, has your intentions ever been to cause violence on college campuses? [1:03:36] Oh, sorry, sorry for skirting the question. [1:03:39] No, no, no. [1:03:40] It's a second question. [1:03:41] It's a second question you did fine on the first. [1:03:43] Literally talking about Taylor Swift and skirting, mini skirting the question. [1:03:48] Of course not. [1:03:49] Never. [1:03:50] No. [1:03:51] And I don't know who does have those ideas. [1:03:56] I personally want to exchange ideas. [1:03:59] I basically want to just take my ideas and put it into your head. [1:04:04] But I don't want to put my fist or foot in your head. [1:04:06] Mr. Lawrence, do you think that when Mr. Shapiro is on campus that he has any intentions to cause violence or promote violence? [1:04:13] Do you think he's an agitator or do you think he engages in hate speech? [1:04:16] No, I have no reason to believe he's there to create violence. [1:04:20] And in fact, I would say that the wise university president does not get in the business on a daily basis of calling First Amendment balls and strikes. [1:04:27] Generally speaking, you want to let the game play on. [1:04:30] You want ideas to be exchanged. [1:04:31] Mr. Carolla wants to come to campus and do his seething critique of Taylor Swift. [1:04:35] I would say have at it. [1:04:37] But those aren't the hard cases that we're talking about. [1:04:40] Where you do weigh in are precisely cases. [1:04:43] What do you mean they're not the hard cases? [1:04:45] Mr. Shapiro has been shouted down, uninvited, violence at the thing. [1:04:49] So what do you mean it's not the hard case? [1:04:51] If you think his speech is appropriate, he's engaging in the kind of ideas, robust debate that we want on college campuses, then why is the reaction the way it is then? [1:05:01] There shouldn't be that reaction. [1:05:03] And what I mean by not being a hard case is that it should not be a hard case for a university administration to protect his right to speak. [1:05:08] I think there's no problem with that. [1:05:10] It seems to be. [1:05:11] But what I mean by the hard cases is that when you do see a dramatic increase in white supremacist incidents on campuses, [1:05:18] university administrators have to pay attention. [1:05:21] And particularly when there are people who come from the outside and the university president has a hard time keeping control of her or his campus. [1:05:27] But that's a different situation from Mr. Carolla. [1:05:29] Mr. Shapiro, you an agitator? [1:05:31] Not as far as I'm aware. [1:05:35] So I think that some of what's been said does miniscort the debate. [1:05:42] You know, Mr. Krishnamoorthy, I got it right. [1:05:44] When you were talking about the Wisconsin law, I believe that law was brought up in direct counter to what happened. [1:05:51] And people talked about it on the floor of the legislature. [1:05:55] In direct counter to what happened when I spoke at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, [1:05:58] where you had a bunch of protesters who stood in front of the stage and obstructed the stage and then refused to leave. [1:06:04] And when I asked the police would they remove the protesters, they've been going for 15 minutes. [1:06:08] By the way, personally, two things just to preface. [1:06:11] I have no problem whatsoever with people protesting my speeches. [1:06:14] I do have a problem with people who won't actually let me speak. [1:06:17] And number two, as far as all the talk about white supremacy, I can speak from experience. [1:06:22] Mr. Lawrence, your organization named me the number one target of anti-Semitism online last year. [1:06:27] So I have a trophy at my house that's number one hated Jew in America. [1:06:31] So I'm totally familiar with the level of vitriol that's become common in our politics. [1:06:36] But one of the things that's a problem and I think we have to be careful about is when we say leave it to the administrators [1:06:42] and then the administrators do what they did at UW, which is the police, I said to the police, [1:06:46] will you remove these protesters? [1:06:48] And the police said, we have been told by the administration that if we remove the protesters, [1:06:52] we are to shut down the event entirely. [1:06:54] So we can't remove the protesters. [1:06:55] We literally had to wait until they just got tired and walked out basically. [1:06:58] When that's the response of the administration, shouldn't there be some sort of repercussion for that? [1:07:03] Because what I'm seeing is a heckler's veto that's taking place on campus. [1:07:06] What I'm seeing is people who are not engaging in free speech designed to enrich the debate, [1:07:11] but in order to shut down the debate. [1:07:13] And there have to be some sort of ramifications for people who are actually committing trespass. [1:07:20] I mean, this is not a question of... [1:07:23] Everyone is trying to focus in on this term hate crime and hate speech. [1:07:29] But the important part of those phrases is not the first word. [1:07:33] It's speech versus crime. [1:07:34] So if there's a crime that's being committed, we're all in agreement. [1:07:36] If somebody commits a crime and they're speaking of an imminent threat to somebody, [1:07:40] of course that's a crime. [1:07:41] But that has very little to do with the hate and a lot more to do with the crime as to whether that's prosecuted. [1:07:44] Because hate speech is not prosecutable, nor should it be policed by the campus. [1:07:48] So the fact is that what we are seeing is a conflation between speech and active attempts to obstruct [1:07:56] in order to promote the obstruction by some administrators on a few college campuses. [1:08:00] Can I add to that? [1:08:01] Sure can. [1:08:02] I think that the bigger problem and what's sort of insidious here is I believe that the administration [1:08:11] does not agree with Ben Shapiro and Ben Shapiro's thoughts and what Ben Shapiro is going to say. [1:08:18] So it becomes a tacit agreement. [1:08:20] And they disagree. [1:08:21] They're basically Steeler fans. [1:08:24] And he's a Baltimore Ravens fan. [1:08:27] And he's going to come up and make a speech. [1:08:29] And all the Steeler fans say, well, he should be allowed to, but we're not a fan. [1:08:34] And so quietly they go along with it. [1:08:37] And I think that's a problem. [1:08:39] I think that's a big problem. [1:08:41] Everyone agrees on free speech. [1:08:43] Everyone agrees that the college campus should be a petri dish of free speech or melting pot [1:08:50] or whatever it is, a sea sponge of free speech. [1:08:54] But when the administration doesn't agree with what Ben Shapiro has to say, they don't [1:08:59] defend his right to say it as vigorously as they would if someone came on who they agreed [1:09:05] with. [1:09:06] It's quiet. [1:09:07] No one ever talks about it, but I believe that's what's going on. [1:09:09] They tell him like they did last week that, oh, there's no venue that will accommodate him [1:09:13] in September. [1:09:14] Wow. [1:09:15] Right? [1:09:16] You can't find a place on campus to have him come and address this. [1:09:19] I think, if I may for a second, I think that that's one of the dangers here is that what [1:09:23] we're seeing in many cases is use of what would normally be time, place, and manner restrictions [1:09:28] in order to restrict the actual type of speech. [1:09:30] As a pretext. [1:09:31] Yes. [1:09:32] If I might say, responding to points that Mr. Krishnamurti made and also Chairman Jordan, [1:09:38] that this really is not such a new phenomenon. [1:09:43] Back in the 60s and 70s, there was actually epic violence on campuses, massive shutdowns, [1:09:51] outside agitators, students alike, faculty members and administrators imprisoned within [1:09:57] their offices. [1:09:59] And that gave rise to that fabulous report that Chairman Jordan referred to, the Woodward [1:10:05] Report, which I think is responsive to a number of questions that have been raised. [1:10:09] What should campus administrators do? [1:10:12] Because it really, in concrete terms, spells out the distinctions between speech that should [1:10:18] be protected, including vehement protest, and where it crosses the line into coercion and [1:10:24] intimidation, where it is important for the university to enforce its own rules. [1:10:30] But that's as distinct from government getting into the frame. [1:10:34] Well said. [1:10:35] The General Lady from Florida is recognized, and we will relax the time restraints a little bit. [1:10:40] Oh, that's good. [1:10:41] Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. [1:10:44] And again, thank you to all of our witnesses for being here today and engaging in this very [1:10:50] important discussion. [1:10:52] Mr. Lawrence, in your written testimony, you talk about white supremacists are engaged in [1:10:59] unprecedented outreach on American colleges and campuses. [1:11:05] What do you believe accounts for the rise in outreach? [1:11:11] And what do you believe white supremacist groups are hoping to achieve by the increase in targeting [1:11:19] colleges and universities? [1:11:20] I think what they are hoping to accomplish is to influence the next generation of leaders [1:11:26] in society, and so they come to campus with that in mind. [1:11:29] I think they also are hoping to get a high level of visibility, which they do. [1:11:33] Campuses get a high level of attention in the media, in the press, in government, and mostly [1:11:39] for good reasons, but I think that raises that as well. [1:11:42] And I think to a certain extent we are living in a highly hyper-polarized environment right [1:11:47] now, and there is a violence to the vocabulary that comes very quickly, and there is a racialized [1:11:54] version to much of this vocabulary that comes very quickly. [1:11:57] But let me hasten to add that even when those groups come to campus, I still think the answer [1:12:02] is more speech not to restrict. [1:12:05] But I do think this is where the job of the administrator becomes very complicated, but [1:12:10] terribly important, to be a voice of clarity to say, on this campus we believe that all [1:12:17] are entitled to come here and have a satisfying learning experience, to be challenged, to be [1:12:22] challenged intellectually, to be troubled with ideas, but not to be threatened and not to be [1:12:27] stigmatized because of who they are or what they are. [1:12:29] You know, as I indicated in my opening statement, I have been directly involved in numerous, [1:12:37] providing security for numerous protests as persons who I agreed with and groups that I [1:12:43] didn't exercise their First Amendment rights. [1:12:45] So I take this conversation very, very seriously. [1:12:48] You talked earlier about kind of the complicated and sometimes difficult job of the college [1:12:56] administrator who is trying to balance protecting the right to free speech, but also thinking [1:13:03] about the welfare and safety and wellbeing of their students, which can be a difficult line. [1:13:11] Could you, or even Mr. Dr. Zimmerman, I'd like to hear from both of you, kind of talk more [1:13:16] about, even though we've said it's a tough, it's difficult, could you kind of talk more [1:13:21] about the role of the college administrator in balancing the right to free speech and the [1:13:27] welfare of the students on campus? [1:13:30] Let me start with something very important that Dr. Zimmerman said. [1:13:33] These discussions do not best start once an event has already happened on campus. [1:13:40] It starts at first year orientation discussions. [1:13:43] It starts in dinners in the president's home. [1:13:45] It starts in discussions in the office, talking about what do we stand for? [1:13:48] What does a civil learning climate mean? [1:13:50] What does it mean to challenge each other? [1:13:51] It comes with how we treat each other. [1:13:53] I think he's also right that there are precious few good role models for civil disagreement in our [1:14:00] society right now. [1:14:01] So we have to create those on our university campuses. [1:14:04] When an event does happen, I think there also are very significant rules of engagement that have [1:14:09] to be enforced. [1:14:10] So, for example, if Mr. Spiro wanted to come to my campus, he obviously would be free to come, [1:14:15] and I would make sure that there were no protestors who kept him from coming. [1:14:18] But I would require, and I'm sure he'd be happy with this requirement, that he'd have to take questions [1:14:22] and answers. [1:14:23] He couldn't just give a speech and leave. [1:14:24] I have no reason to think he wouldn't agree with that. [1:14:26] In fact, I actually, at all my speeches, I say, if you decide, [1:14:30] disagree with me, you go to the front of the line for Q&A. [1:14:32] That's always how it works. [1:14:33] When I got pushed back, particularly from some of my trustees about certain speakers, [1:14:38] they disagreed with vehemently. [1:14:40] Why are they on campus? [1:14:41] My response was always, trust my kids. [1:14:43] I'm going to make sure that these speakers have to answer questions. [1:14:48] And they're going to stay until the questions are done. [1:14:50] Trust my students to ask hard questions. [1:14:53] That's where the training how to think actually happens. [1:14:55] So you create those environments as well. [1:14:57] But look, let's be clear as well. [1:14:59] When the situation gets out of control, usually because you've got people from the outside, [1:15:04] not only, sometimes it's inside, but usually when you've got people from the outside, [1:15:07] then you've got the same questions on campuses that law enforcement, such as your experience, [1:15:12] are more adept at dealing with. [1:15:14] And these will continue to be challenges for our universities. [1:15:17] In your written testimony, you also talked about the just unbelievable number of incidents of racist-related stickers, flyers on campuses. [1:15:28] Could you talk a little bit about the impacts that you have seen on certain groups as it pertains to those flyers and stickers? [1:15:36] Look, you've got to go all the way back to first principles. [1:15:39] Universities are not punitive institutions. [1:15:42] They are educative institutions. [1:15:43] We exist for a purpose. [1:15:44] It is to educate our students. [1:15:46] When there is a pervasive expression of racism on campus, that disables the learning of certain students. [1:15:55] Again, that doesn't necessarily mean you would repress some of that expression, but you have to respond to that, [1:16:01] not just because you think that's a nice thing to do. [1:16:03] You have a professional obligation as an educator to see to the learning ability of the students on your campus. [1:16:10] So the incidents that you're referring to have a deeply negative impact on the ability of students to learn, [1:16:15] which at the end of the day is the mission of the institution. [1:16:18] Okay, thank you. [1:16:19] I'm out of time. [1:16:20] Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. [1:16:21] I yield back. [1:16:22] Thank you. [1:16:23] Chair notes the presence of Congressman Heiss and Professor Raskin, and without objection, [1:16:25] they will be welcome to participate fully in today's hearing. [1:16:29] And now I recognize the Chairman, Mr. Palmer. [1:16:31] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:16:34] I just want to bring up something from your written testimony that, frankly, Mr. Lawrence will find troubling. [1:16:43] You cite an instance at Central Michigan University where there was a Valentine's Day card that went out [1:16:50] that was extremely offensive to Jews. [1:16:53] And you do point out that the Creator, and it was attributed to a Republican student group. [1:17:00] And in your written testimony, you point out that the Creator of the Valentine turned out to not be a student. [1:17:07] But you never disengaged, you never mentioned in here that it was not the Republican group. [1:17:16] That an inquiry into this by Central Michigan University found, led by Kathryn Lasher, said that they determined the leaders of the student organization, [1:17:31] the College Republicans at CMU, were unaware of the card. [1:17:35] And that your director said the members of the student organization were shocked and remorseful. [1:17:39] Why didn't you make that clear? [1:17:42] Congressman, I apologize if it was not clear in the written testimony as you see it. [1:17:48] I did say in the testimony that it was determined not to be from a student group. [1:17:53] But you didn't make clear that it wasn't the Republican. [1:17:58] Not only was not a student, it wasn't the Republicans. [1:18:01] I guess I'm a little sensitive about that, Mr. Chairman. [1:18:03] I'd like to enter this into the record, if I may. [1:18:05] Not objection. [1:18:06] Because I realize that some speech does incite inappropriate behavior, even violence. [1:18:13] And I know that firsthand because I was one of the Republican baseball players that was on the field. [1:18:18] I was 20 steps from the guy when he started shooting. [1:18:21] And it was clear that he was incited by a certain speech. [1:18:25] But I'd like to point out that as traumatic as that experience was, I have not heard a single demand from anyone of those who were present, [1:18:35] who were injured or wounded, for restriction of anyone's right to speak their views on any issue. [1:18:42] And I just think, you know, I was at the University of Alabama in the mid-1970s. [1:18:49] 1965 was the first time an African American was allowed to enroll in the university. [1:18:55] It was a dark time in our history. [1:18:57] There's no question about it. [1:18:59] But in 1976, we elected the first African American president of the Student Government Association. [1:19:07] The year before that, the executive vice president of the Student Government Association. [1:19:11] And there were people who disagreed and protested. [1:19:14] But we didn't have this inability to communicate that we have right now on university campuses. [1:19:21] Mr. Chairman, I would agree that it is critically important that on campuses we not get in the business of name calling [1:19:33] and certainly not prohibiting others from speaking. [1:19:35] And in fact, one of the reasons that I think it is very important for universities not to rush to judgment [1:19:41] and not to look at these as cases to punish but as cases to educate is that the goal at the end of the day [1:19:47] is to teach students how to challenge each other intellectually but not physically and not with ways. [1:19:52] You have a responsibility, though, to make sure that both sides have the opportunity to engage. [1:19:57] This idea that denying students the opportunity to hear views or ideas that are contrary to what they believe, [1:20:02] these safe spaces, I think are dangerous. [1:20:08] You're not protecting students. [1:20:11] You're denying them the ability to engage in debate, to defend their views or oppose other views [1:20:18] because when they leave college, I promise you, they're going to run into views that are opposite to their own. [1:20:24] You and I are in complete agreement on that. [1:20:27] It is the obligation of a university to expose students to views they disagree with. [1:20:32] You and I are in complete agreement on that point. [1:20:34] I want to ask Professor Strawson, while I find the numerous instances of speakers being disinvited or shouted down problematic, [1:20:43] I think the most troubling aspect of the anti-free speech movement is the surprising amount of traction it has gained with the younger generation. [1:20:53] There was a Pew Research Center study that showed that 40% of millennials believe that the government should be able to prevent people from publicly making statements that are offensive to minority groups. [1:21:06] Does your experience as a professor confirm that students are likely to support restrictions on speech? [1:21:15] I am not going to rely on anecdotes because I have to say, by definition, when I'm invited to speak on campus, [1:21:23] I'm often perceived as a controversial speaker for defending freedom for everybody from A to Z. [1:21:31] How does it impact you in the classroom? I'm not talking about this. [1:21:35] In the classroom, you can't teach a law class without forcing students to do well to be able, and here my students can quote this, [1:21:48] articulate and defend all plausible perspectives on every issue. [1:21:54] You're going to fail my class if you just adhere to the civil libertarian line or any other line. [1:22:00] You have to be able to answer back, and interestingly enough, there has been some suggestion that these problems do not exist at law schools. [1:22:08] The new dean of the Yale Law School just wrote a very interesting essay in Time Magazine in which he said, [1:22:14] isn't it striking that we don't have these problems at law school? [1:22:17] It may well be because we so emphasize critical thinking and forcing students to advocate against their own deeply held beliefs. [1:22:27] Understanding, first of all, that may open their minds and change their perspectives. [1:22:31] That's not the worst thing to happen in life. [1:22:33] And secondly, even if it doesn't, it enhances their ability to effectively advocate their own positions. [1:22:41] So that could be an educational model for undergraduates, and for that matter, high schools and below as well. [1:22:49] I'm encouraged to know that you're promoting critical thinking skills. [1:22:55] One last thing, Mr. Chairman, I hear you tapping there. I heard that. [1:23:01] Mr. Shapiro, proponents of curtailed speech often argue that certain types of speech amount to violence, [1:23:07] noting that certain listeners are emotionally harmed when listening to ideas with which they disagree. [1:23:12] There was an article in the LA Times that made this argument going so far as to call on courts and legislatures to allow the restriction of hate speech, [1:23:20] as do all other economically advanced democracies in the world. [1:23:24] Is there any limiting principle at play where forbidden speech is anything that a particular person or group of people find offensive? [1:23:32] No, I haven't seen any limiting principle at play at all on college campuses, which is the problem. [1:23:36] You'll have people like Jason Riley from The Wall Street Journal treated exactly the same way as Ann Coulter or Milo Yiannopoulos [1:23:42] in their polls apart in terms of how they express themselves and in many of the views that they hold. [1:23:45] So this idea that there is some sort of bright line, this is why I hate, even the term hate speech is really difficult, [1:23:51] because it just suggests that if I don't like what you're saying or if I impute to you an intent that you may not have, [1:23:57] then now you're hateful and you should be banned. [1:24:00] It seems to me that a more effective use of terminology would say speech I find insulting or speech I find offensive. [1:24:10] But the idea of hate speech itself, there are certain types of speech I think we can all agree are objectively hateful, [1:24:15] but I don't think that there is any limiting principle at play from a lot of administrators, [1:24:19] because I think that they use that club of hate speech in order to cudgel people with whom they disagree. [1:24:24] They just say, okay, I don't like what you're saying now, and that's hate speech. [1:24:27] And microaggression culture contributes to this. [1:24:29] I mean, literally on campuses, students will be told that if you say to another student, [1:24:33] where are you from, that this is some sort of microaggression, that this is a minor, minor form of hate speech. [1:24:38] If you say, where are you from, because you're implying they're not from here. [1:24:41] I mean, of course you're not from here. [1:24:42] I mean, I assume you weren't born on this spot, but it doesn't matter. [1:24:45] The idea that you're going to broaden out terminology in order to prohibit groups that you don't like or ideas that you don't like, [1:24:51] I would much prefer that if we're going to move the ratchet in any one direction, let's move the ratchet in favor of more speech. [1:24:58] And I agree, of course, with Mr. Lawrence that it's perfectly appropriate if an administrator wants to say that I personally disagree, [1:25:06] the university doesn't agree with the views that are being espoused by a particular speaker. [1:25:09] That's perfectly appropriate, but sometimes there are gray areas in terms of what the university is doing. [1:25:15] When Mr. Lawrence was at Brandeis University, Ayaan Hirsi Ali was uninvited from the university because of blowback from some of the students. [1:25:21] I mean, is that a case of her free speech rights being violated? [1:25:24] It's a private university, but if it were a public university, would that be a case of her free speech rights being violated [1:25:29] because administrators decided not to stand up for those because students were upset? [1:25:33] I mean, this is why I think that the notion that there is some sort of grand intelligentsia running the universities [1:25:42] who are capable of discriminating between hate speech and normal speech [1:25:45] and should be sitting atop a hill somewhere under a palm tree like a Cottey dispensing justice on a case-by-case basis, [1:25:51] I think it's nonsense, and I don't think that they have any rational standards they apply. [1:25:54] I'll just conclude with this, Mr. Chairman, that I think this hearing is very important. [1:26:00] I think the main thing that students ought to get, and all of us ought to get, is to deny ourselves access to other people's views, [1:26:08] is to deny ourselves furthering our own education. [1:26:10] This is how you learn. [1:26:12] And I would like to compliment Mr. Carolla on his metaphors, football and hardware. [1:26:18] Thank you very much. [1:26:20] I thank the gentleman. [1:26:22] When Mr. Shapiro was given his example about asking the question, and it being perceived as a microaggression, [1:26:28] asking the question, where are you from, I noticed the students in the audience all nodding their heads. [1:26:33] And so in our subsequent hearings, we're going to look to get some students here [1:26:37] who can give us some firsthand knowledge of what it's like from their perspective on these particular campuses. [1:26:42] And with that, I recognize the gentlelady from Illinois for her questioning. [1:26:45] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [1:26:49] I find this conversation very interesting. [1:26:51] I used to work on the college campus. [1:26:53] I was a director of minority student services for Bradley University, and I'm now on the board of trustees of Bradley. [1:27:00] That's my alma mater. [1:27:02] And something you said, Mr. Zimmerman, we did start, you know, we had student orientation. [1:27:07] And as part of the orientation, the students went through diversity training and diversity orientation. [1:27:15] As freshmen, they had to go through a class for half of the semester. [1:27:20] Mr. Lawrence, anti-defamationally, came to the campus. [1:27:23] That's where I cut my teeth. [1:27:24] I'm a diversity trainer, and we did a campus of difference. [1:27:28] And one thing I wanted to say also, I know on the outside it may look like we don't get along, [1:27:35] but I just hosted something I called Breaking Bread, and there were 75 of us Democrats and Republicans that ate together. [1:27:42] And not that probably Mr. Meadows, the head of the Freedom Caucus, and I probably never vote alike, but we are very close. [1:27:52] You can ask him. [1:27:53] And Mr. Palmer and I bring him popcorn from Illinois. [1:27:57] So we do get along better than people think. [1:28:00] Maybe we need to show it a little bit. [1:28:02] And I brought you Valentine chocolate. [1:28:04] That's true. [1:28:05] Well, we Valentine's. [1:28:06] But I think we do get along better than people think. [1:28:10] We may not agree on how to get to a goal, but there are a lot of similar goals also. [1:28:17] But Mr. Palmer said, and I deeply understand how he's sensitive because of what he experienced. [1:28:26] But I also think about Taylor and the impact on her. [1:28:31] And even though I agree with free speech and all of that, but we do need to think about the impact and the long lasting impact that it does have on people. [1:28:41] And I don't want to speak for her, but like maybe her trust or, you know, when she meets someone new or how the campus is and those kind of things. [1:28:52] I think that we need to really need to make sure that we give the students support. [1:28:57] And I agree with being open minded to different ideas and things like that. [1:29:00] But it does have an impact on people. [1:29:03] When I went to college a long, long time ago, it was so segregated. [1:29:08] I grew up in New York City. [1:29:10] I went to college, Bradley University, and I just was not used to that. [1:29:14] And I still remember the impact that it had on me and people's attitudes and things like that. [1:29:20] And maybe that led me to be passionate about diversity and becoming a diversity trainer. [1:29:25] But what do you think about that, the impact that it has on people, even like Mr. Palmer said? [1:29:30] And he's a full grown adult, a congressman, and the impact of what he went through has on him. [1:29:36] But how can we support students? [1:29:38] Well, I think the more we talk with one another and the more we listen to one another, the easier it is to understand one another. [1:29:49] When we look at others as other, we can demonize them. [1:29:54] We can ignore their ideas and know that their ideas are wrong. [1:29:57] When we understand who these people are and what they believe, it's so much easier to share what we have in common instead of looking for our differences. [1:30:07] So the fact that you had 75 members together is absolutely wonderful. [1:30:13] But I think you're right. [1:30:14] That needs to be demonstrated more openly because that's not the image that's seen. [1:30:18] And we as members of the academy, as I've said, we as citizens, we as human beings look for role models. [1:30:26] And we model what we see, whether we mean to or not. [1:30:29] And when we see from cable news segregation of ideas, not segregation in terms of race, but some of that as well. [1:30:37] But segregation in terms of ideas, when we see that so obvious, we internalize that and say that must be the way American society should work. [1:30:45] We need to work together. [1:30:47] We need to understand each other and we need to be able to disagree. [1:30:50] There's nothing wrong with disagreeing, especially with the ideas, but not with the people. [1:30:54] But I also think in disagreeing, there has to be a certain level of respect. [1:30:58] Absolutely. [1:30:59] That's the other part too. [1:31:00] And again, I go back to what Taylor went through. [1:31:05] That's beyond the pale. [1:31:07] And I do think things should be done about that. [1:31:09] Could I possibly say something? [1:31:11] First of all, Congressman Kelly, I've spoken at Bradley and I have wonderful memories. [1:31:16] There weren't protests. [1:31:17] But studies have been done by social psychologists and legal theorists also have supported the notion [1:31:25] that a major harm from even threatening speech that could be punished, much less constitutionally protected hate speech, [1:31:34] is not the initial speech itself, but if there is lack of objection to it from the surrounding community, [1:31:42] if there is lack of support for the person who is the target of the hate speech. [1:31:47] Conversely, when you have university presidents, student body leaders, other members of the campus community, [1:31:54] rallying to support the students who are the target of that speech, that ends up being not such a – it can become a resilient, empowering kind of experience. [1:32:06] Thank you, General. [1:32:09] The gentleman from Kentucky, Mr. Massey, is recognized. [1:32:11] I remember my very first day on campus. [1:32:15] I grew up in a rural town in Kentucky, 1,500 people, and I went to a school in Cambridge, Massachusetts. [1:32:21] I had never even visited the campus. [1:32:23] I crossed the crosswalk. [1:32:25] We didn't have any crosswalks where I grew up. [1:32:27] And a car honked at me. [1:32:29] I thought, what are the yawns? [1:32:32] I've been here an hour and already met somebody I know. [1:32:35] I turned around and waved at the car. [1:32:38] I think they were waving back with one finger. [1:32:40] But what that showed me is these people may have different ideas or a different upbringing than I had. [1:32:47] Ms. Strausson articulated a threshold for reasonable expectation of whether something is hate speech or whether it's protected or not. [1:32:59] Mr. Lawrence, she said it would – maybe the threshold should be reasonable expectation to – that it would instill fear or violence – of fear of violence or harm. [1:33:09] Is that – would you like to, in less than 30 seconds, if you could, sort of articulate the standard of what might be protected and what might not? [1:33:17] Mr. Yeah, I think that Professor Strausson and I are in roughly the same place on this. [1:33:22] I would just focus more, as we often do in the criminal law, on the intent of the actor. [1:33:27] So, was it behavior that was intended to threaten or intimidate? [1:33:31] Not to confound, not to trouble, not to raise new opinions, but to threaten or to intimidate. [1:33:36] Mr. Okay. I've got a document here you may not recognize. [1:33:39] It's the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. [1:33:43] If I brandish this, Mr. Lawrence, in your presence, are you intimidated? [1:33:48] Does it strike fear in your heart? [1:33:50] Do you think that harm may come to you very soon? [1:33:52] Mr. I think it is actually much safer than crossing the street in Cranbridge, Massachusetts. [1:33:56] Mr. I would agree, but the administrators at the Kellogg Community College don't. [1:34:03] They arrested students for handing out a constitution. [1:34:07] Can you imagine that? [1:34:09] That's the height of irony. [1:34:11] How far has this ridiculousness gone if students are arrested for handing out constitutions? [1:34:17] This is the document that contains the First Amendment, the protection in there. [1:34:22] I think maybe we have gone too far if this is now recognized as something that passes that threshold. [1:34:30] Mr. Carolla, I know King George may have found this to be insightful, but do you find it threatening? [1:34:39] Is he a basketball player? I don't keep up. [1:34:43] Is he on the Kings? [1:34:45] I was just having a thought. [1:34:48] I'm sorry, continue your question. [1:34:50] No, I just want to know, is this a threatening document? [1:34:52] Does this cross the threshold? [1:34:54] Not unless there's a knife hidden inside of it. [1:34:57] Right. [1:34:58] No, but as I was hearing everyone speak, I never went to college. [1:35:05] There's something I would like to touch on very quickly, which is going through diversity training, going to college. [1:35:14] We're all sitting here, first off, under the assumption that 100% of kids go to college. [1:35:21] I didn't know anyone who went to college. [1:35:23] So I had to figure out a way to be a decent human being, not to be racist, not to be filled with hate, to be tolerant, minus college. [1:35:31] I think that starts at home. [1:35:33] So if you get to 18 or 19, I believe the cement on the sidewalk of your brain has already dried and good luck carving your initials into it with diversity training. [1:35:46] If you're a bad kid and we get hold of you in college, you're probably just going to be a bad adult. [1:35:52] You need to learn to be a good human being from zero to college instead of us all converting you once you get to college. [1:36:00] And especially since more than half the people don't end up in college. [1:36:04] So we're sitting here with a grand plan of how to coach everyone up once they get to college. [1:36:08] What if they never get to college? [1:36:10] What about their parents and what kind of job are they doing coaching the kids up so that they need no coaching, whether they go to college or not? [1:36:19] Mr. Shapiro, I'm going to assume you don't find this to be a threatening or a harmful document. [1:36:26] I've read a few people myself. [1:36:30] Look, the college's defense when they arrested these students, by the way, they spent overnight in jail, seven hours in jail for handing out constitutions. [1:36:39] You said something earlier that struck me that time, place and manner regulations are being used to restrict free speech because that's what the college said to these students who belong to Young Americans for Liberty. [1:36:50] They said if you just filled out the paperwork, if you'd stood 100 feet over there instead of where you're standing and if you'd done it at this time, we would have allowed you to hand out our nation's founding document. [1:37:02] Can you speak to how time, manner and place restrictions are being abused? [1:37:07] So most obviously, UC Berkeley did that with Ann Coulter where they kept moving around her room and they kept saying they didn't have rooms available. [1:37:13] They said the same thing to me a week ago. [1:37:15] There was some public outcry and now they're offering some rooms, which, you know, I hope that that event goes forward. [1:37:19] It's not rare. They do this a lot. [1:37:22] It's a private university that did it. [1:37:25] It was DePaul University. [1:37:26] I was threatened with arrest if I set foot on campus. [1:37:28] I actually showed up there and a security guard told me, I asked him, if I move six inches forward, are you going to arrest me? [1:37:33] And he said yes. And he had the sheriff of Click County behind him. [1:37:35] So this is, you know, it's become a cover for ideological discrimination because if Ta-Nehisi Coates wants to speak on these campuses, there's not going to be any problem. [1:37:44] The administrators will make certain that time, place and manner restrictions don't get in the way. [1:37:48] And this is why I say, saying that the discretion of administrators is wonderful is all well and good, except that they very often are attempting to achieve a particular political end by using means that are normally legitimate. [1:38:02] And that's definitely a dangerous thing. [1:38:05] If you don't mind, I have a quick note on something that I think it was Mr. Lawrence was saying earlier about the damage that's done to students by various things that happen on campus, by threats of violence and this sort of thing. [1:38:17] And obviously, everyone, I think, agrees that what happened to Taylor is unacceptable. [1:38:22] But one of the things that I think should also be pointed out is we have a lot of other students in the crowd and administrators who spend an enormous amount of time pushing stuff like white privilege means that you must accept that you are subordinate in terms of your view because of identity. [1:38:36] This also has some lasting damage with regard to First Amendment exercise and with regard to how people perceive the freedom of the country. [1:38:42] And I understand that this is universally held belief among university educators that we have to accept the guilt of particular races or particular sexual orientations for discrimination that's happened in the past. [1:38:56] But when you teach a bunch of 18 and 19-year-old people this, you shouldn't be surprised when, number one, they go into hiding with their viewpoint or, number two, they become frustrated. [1:39:06] It's an absurdity to suggest that you can tell people that their viewpoints are out of line because of their identity at the same time you're telling other people that their viewpoints are completely in line because of their identity and that any assault on their senses must be protected or prevented at any cost. [1:39:20] I would just like to point out in closing that the group Young Americans for Liberty that is handing out constitutions on campuses all across the country has changed free speech restrictions on 25 campuses just by handing out this document, not by setting fires because they didn't like the speaker or throwing rocks through windows, but by handing out this constitution. [1:39:40] And I am inspired that there are young people who are inspired by this document and it should never be illegal to hand out this document. [1:39:48] Well said, Mr. Massey. Real quick, Ms. Strawson, is Mr. Shapiro right? Are most of the anti-speech activities going on on campuses targeted towards conservatives and libertarians? [1:39:59] Certainly the well-publicized ones have been. And I can't speak for campuses across the country, but I go back to an opening point that I made, which was best summarized in the title of a book by Nat Hentoff. [1:40:14] But I just, I just wanted to answer. I can't, we'll come back to that, but I just was wanting to respond to Mr. Shapiro's point. [1:40:20] Sure. I mean, that's my understanding as well. And I, I'll be. [1:40:22] Those are the well-publicized incidents and it would be consistent with what surveys show about the prevailing beliefs on campus that the majority of students have are on the liberal end of the political spectrum. [1:40:35] The majority of faculty members are on the liberal end of the political spectrum. [1:40:39] I find that shocking. [1:40:40] So they would be more likely to be offended by conservative speakers. [1:40:44] Professor Raskin, you're smiling. You find that shocking too, don't you? The gentlelady from the District of Columbia is recognized for her five minutes. [1:40:50] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased that the entire panel appears to believe that exposure to speech that hurts is part and parcel of living in a democratic free speech society. [1:41:09] It pains me, I have to say, when I hear of African American students in particular, claiming about hurt feelings when it comes to speech. [1:41:20] I say as a black woman and ask them to remember that Frederick Douglass and I'm pleased that this committee has just passed a resolution. [1:41:32] Sorry, a bill that will allow Douglass's bicentennial to be commemorated that at the same time that African Americans were enslaved. [1:41:44] Frederick Douglass was able in even that society to denounce slavery all over the United States. [1:41:56] Mr. Shapiro, I dare say I've had the opportunity to defend people who were even more controversial than you are. [1:42:09] I was assistant legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union. [1:42:13] It was a small office and I had a memorable opportunity to argue before the Supreme Court a so-called prior restraint case. [1:42:27] That was a case where, as a matter of fact, it was in Princess Anne County. [1:42:33] At that time, I lived in New York, Princess Anne County, Maryland. [1:42:36] And a proto-Nazi racist party came in that county and gave a speech of the kind you might expect that denounced blacks and Jews and anybody else they could think of. [1:42:54] Well, the state's attorney went into court and got an injunction against their ability to speak the next day. [1:43:03] And that case was appealed all the way I argued the case in the Supreme Court, not as it was appealed up. [1:43:12] Supreme Court ruled unanimously that those vile words could be spoken without being being censored ahead of time. [1:43:22] In essence, this kind of activity in the country and on the campus is intended to have some kind of chilling effect to keep people from wanting to speak at all. [1:43:36] The Republican led assembly in Wisconsin has taken a stab at what to do about this because I don't think we want to encourage hateful speech. [1:43:48] And I appreciate what professors Zimmerman and Mr. Lawrence have said about the anecdotes to hate speech. [1:43:57] But if you leave this to legislatures, they have only the law at their disposal. [1:44:09] Now in Wisconsin, the state assembly there passed the bill and recently passed a bill that would require disciplinary action. [1:44:20] And that action could be suspension or expulsion. [1:44:24] This is how they framed what would get you suspension or expulsion. [1:44:31] Any student who engages in indecent, profane, boisterous, obscene, unreasonably loud or other disorderly conduct that interferes with the free speech, free expression above the others. [1:44:45] Every Democrat voted against this. [1:44:47] What kind of polarization is this? [1:44:49] I'm glad to see we don't have it in this committee. [1:44:51] Every Democrat voted against that. [1:44:53] Every Republican voted for that. [1:44:57] The state assembly, by the way, was not shy in making clear what their purpose was. [1:45:05] It was to suppress the campus protests that they had seen over that time. [1:45:11] Ms. Strawson, I read your written testimony where you give a wonderful expository about free speech. [1:45:25] And you mentioned vague, unclear guidelines as having a potential chilling effect when people read those guidelines. [1:45:35] And I guess when you start when you talk about clear objective guidelines, I just read to you the words of the Wisconsin legislature gauges in indecent, profane, boisterous, obscene, unreasonably loud, etc. speech. [1:45:56] Would you have concerns about that statute, that Wisconsin statute, and what do you think would be the concerns of, for example, the Supreme Court of the United States? [1:46:09] Well, as Justice John Marshall Harlan, who is a graduate from New York Law School, I have to correct that typo, where I teach, famously said, [1:46:20] one person's vulgarity is another person's lyric. [1:46:25] One person's indecent, profane speech is somebody else's poetic speech. [1:46:31] One person's unreasonably loud speech is somebody else's clearly audible speech. [1:46:36] The reason why we do not allow government to enforce these vague standards is that they depend on subjective value judgments, [1:46:47] which can turn on nothing other than the political preferences of the enforcing authorities, which is exactly what we're all complaining about. [1:46:56] We need to have clear objective standards relating to demonstrable serious harm, such as violence or threats, to constrain the discretion so as not to punish disfavored ideas. [1:47:10] Now, Chairman, Congresswoman Norton, I don't know if you got to the appendix to my testimony, but it includes a very old but still timely, sadly, law review article, [1:47:21] which quotes a certain Eleanor Holmes Norton, way back in 1990, who said, and this is exactly on point, [1:47:29] It is technically impossible to write an anti-speech code that cannot be twisted against speech nobody means to bar. [1:47:38] It has been tried and tried and tried. [1:47:41] So you answered your own question very eloquently. [1:47:44] Thank you very much. [1:47:46] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:47:47] I think I should, I should end with that. [1:47:50] And on a high note there, that's great. [1:47:52] Yeah, thank you. [1:47:53] The gentleman from, gentleman from Virginia, gentleman from Virginia is recognized. [1:48:01] Not that they want to recognize you today, but technically Mr. Meadows is up next, but I'll go to you and then we'll come back to Mr. Meadows. [1:48:06] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:48:09] And my two colleagues are letting me go prior to them because it's my birthday and my parents are out in Statuary Hall. [1:48:15] And so my, I'm a professor. [1:48:18] I see a lot of young people out there. [1:48:20] It's great to see you. [1:48:21] Raise your hand if you're young. [1:48:22] Raise your hand if you feel young. [1:48:25] All right, good. [1:48:26] So we got a lot. [1:48:27] I'm a professor for 20 years. [1:48:29] So I used to torture you all in economics 101 classes. [1:48:32] So I see you sitting here. [1:48:33] So here you go again. [1:48:34] We'll give you a little philosophical lecture. [1:48:37] And the witnesses today were all just phenomenal. [1:48:40] Mr. Carolla in the last series of questions said, we got to learn to be good. [1:48:47] And that right there sums it up. [1:48:49] And I'm going to ask the college presidents how we ground our philosophical statements. [1:48:53] That'll be my question, right? [1:48:54] So they can give a cursory view of Western Civ in the 30 seconds I leave you at the end. [1:48:59] But I have a famous painting in my office with Plato pointing up, right? [1:49:03] What is the good? [1:49:04] He thought it was up there in the realm of the forms. [1:49:06] And Aristotle's pointing down. [1:49:08] And no one has resolved that question philosophically in 2,400 years. [1:49:13] There is no definition of the good. [1:49:15] That's what makes it crucially important that we do the liberal arts education and allow all views to be heard from 2,400 years of human history. [1:49:24] And on that note, I hope we all agree. [1:49:26] My colleagues on the other side of the aisle have spoken about atrocities that have occurred in Western Civ. [1:49:31] I totally agree with them. [1:49:32] That's not what this is about today. [1:49:34] But it's about teaching these first principles. [1:49:36] Everyone's talking about shared values today. [1:49:39] I'm not sure if there are any shared values today. [1:49:42] The guy, if you want to read a good book, read Alistair McIntyre. [1:49:45] He'll start off on the good, right? [1:49:47] You've probably heard of him. [1:49:49] But his book is called Which Rationality? Who's Justice? [1:49:53] Same question, right? [1:49:54] Who's Justice? Which Rationality? And what is the good? [1:49:58] And we don't have answers to that right now. [1:50:01] So your generation better get moving. [1:50:03] The liberal arts I started teaching about 20 years ago. [1:50:06] We went from liberalism. [1:50:08] I'm a 19th century liberal, right? [1:50:10] They call me a right-wing knuckle-drager in the newspaper, right? [1:50:13] But I'm a class. [1:50:14] I believe in Adam Smith and James Mattis and the author of the Constitution. [1:50:18] And liberals, my liberal colleagues on the Democratic side of the aisle always used to respect my view 20 years ago. [1:50:24] That shifted in academia in the last 20 years. [1:50:26] Now it's the hard left, and they're following a philosophy called deconstruction. [1:50:31] They're ripping apart the foundations of the country. [1:50:33] The Judeo-Christian tradition, the rule of law, and free markets are under attack by the left. [1:50:38] Not my Democrat friends I go to church with. [1:50:40] That's a distinction. [1:50:41] And if you ask them to ground their definition of the good or name a philosopher that undergirds their thinking, they can't do it. [1:50:48] So make sure you young people, ask your professors when they're spouting off, say, name a philosopher. [1:50:54] And if they can't do it, write about it in the student newspaper because it's an embarrassment. [1:50:59] And so I went to Princeton Seminary. [1:51:01] The seminary voluntarily moved itself across the tracks because we don't believe in forcing religion on other people. [1:51:06] That's the great debate, right? [1:51:08] So we've had the Enlightenment project. [1:51:11] We tried to ground reality in human reason alone. [1:51:14] Worked great in the sciences. [1:51:16] But in the moral realm, it failed, right? [1:51:19] Jefferson, Immanuel Kant was kind of the end of the Enlightenment project. [1:51:24] And the moral vision failed because they could not tell you why it is that human beings are worthy of dignity in the first place. [1:51:32] But our shared values were delivered in the Declaration was fairly clear. [1:51:38] We have inalienable rights that come from our creator. [1:51:41] Wow. [1:51:42] There's a shocker. [1:51:44] Ask your leftist professors if they believe in those shared values, those inalienable rights, right, that precede the existence of government that come from our creator. [1:51:54] And boy, there you have it all, right? [1:51:57] So that has been rejected by the left. [1:52:00] In K-12 education, I'm sad to report the kids are not taught any system of ethics for the first 13 years of their education. [1:52:07] And then in college, they're taught leftism. [1:52:11] And so now we're left talking about free speech, one particular part of the First Amendment and a narrow part. [1:52:20] And we're being told by some people, leave it to the academic institutions. [1:52:26] You've got to be kidding me. [1:52:28] These are the first principles that ground and surround the space that universities inhabit, right? [1:52:35] So the rule of law has to precede what educational entities do. [1:52:38] And that's why we're here today talking about the law that will surround the space you all act in. [1:52:44] And so I'll just give you another quiz. [1:52:48] Here's the ethical schools that are taught in higher ed. [1:52:51] Raise your hand if you're an Aristotelian. [1:52:54] No, none of them. [1:52:56] All right, raise your hand if you're a follower of utilitarianism. [1:52:59] Bentham, John Stuart Mill. [1:53:01] Really? Good, good for you. [1:53:04] Okay, that's the harm principle. [1:53:05] Ms. Strassen mentioned that. [1:53:07] Raise your hand if you're a follower of Immanuel Kant, if you're a Kantian. [1:53:11] So we've got two people, good. [1:53:15] So those are the schools of thought you're allowed to teach because they're the Enlightenment schools of reason, right? [1:53:19] Now, no one follows those schools of thought. [1:53:22] But in higher ed, you're not allowed to teach about the Judeo-Christian tradition, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, and religion. [1:53:30] How many people in the audience and in the real world live out those traditions? [1:53:34] Just about 7 billion people out of 8 billion, right? [1:53:39] And that's why I think we've got a fundamental problem. [1:53:41] So there's my lecture. [1:53:43] Presidents, if you want to weigh in on what has gone wrong in higher ed over the past 20 years, and how can we fix it? [1:53:52] 30 seconds. [1:53:54] 30 seconds. [1:53:55] I wouldn't dare touch that. [1:53:57] But what I am willing to touch, until you tell me otherwise, is two things. [1:54:02] First, I want to thank you for your passion in defense of the liberal arts, because the liberal arts, which has nothing to do with liberal or conservative, [1:54:10] it has to do with its origin, is critically important. [1:54:14] And the liberal arts are based on an idea that all ideas need to be discussed. [1:54:18] I'd argue with you just a drop in saying that I frankly don't believe the majority of professors on college campuses have taken the view that you've espoused. [1:54:28] Unfortunately, some have. [1:54:29] From my 40 years in the academy, I've had any number of conversations with parents in which I've said what good faculty members want to do, [1:54:39] and I believe in the institutions I've been a part of, almost all of our faculty members are good faculty members, [1:54:45] they want to teach your students how to think. [1:54:47] And if, in the course of that instruction, they think something different at the end than they did at the beginning, that's okay. [1:54:55] If they don't think anything different, that's okay, as long as they can articulate either of those beliefs. [1:55:01] Very rarely, I believe, do faculty go into a classroom and say, here's what you need to think. [1:55:07] You need to learn to think like I think. [1:55:09] You need to parrot back what I believe. [1:55:12] Yes, that happens, and it happens not very often but too frequently. [1:55:17] Because if it happens at all, it's too frequent. [1:55:20] But I don't think that's the norm. [1:55:21] Yeah, I would agree with that. [1:55:24] It's interesting, one of your colleagues said a little earlier that actually there's very good working relationships across the aisle here. [1:55:30] We don't see it out in public, and I think that's exactly the same phenomenon we're talking about in the university. [1:55:35] There's a lot of things that happen in the classroom and office hours and seminar rooms that don't get a lot of play. [1:55:40] Because if it bleeds, it leads, is the way the media treats you and also treats us in academia. [1:55:46] As the CEO of the Phi Beta Kappa Society, I would be remiss if I did not thank you for your deep embracement of the liberal arts. [1:55:53] Phi Beta Kappa stands for philosophia bio kubernetes, which means love of learning is the guide of life. [1:55:59] I mention that, Congressman, because it's about the process of the learning, which I think is key. [1:56:04] And when we lose track of that, then I think we get ourselves in problems. [1:56:08] But the great legal philosopher Alexander Bickel said, the only true integrity is the integrity of process. [1:56:13] And the process by which we learn in our universities, which is really what we're here talking about today, is the glory of our university system in this country. [1:56:22] I just want to thank the panel, and Mr. Shapiro, you're a first-rate philosopher on the rise, I can tell. [1:56:28] Thank you very much. [1:56:29] Before, I think the gentleman, before we recognize Ms. Plaskett, I should point out, we've been here a couple hours. [1:56:33] If anyone needs a facility to use the restroom or anything, just let us know, and we can take a short recess. [1:56:38] Or if you need anything, you've got plenty of water and all that. [1:56:41] So we'd like to go for a little while longer, and we'll now go to Ms. Plaskett for her questioning. [1:56:46] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to have a discussion on this topic. [1:56:54] Mr. Zimmerman, I think that what you stated, Dr. Zimmerman, that universities and schools are for teaching individuals how to think. [1:57:04] That's primary, as you stated, Mr. Lawrence. [1:57:08] And Mr. Crowley, I couldn't be more than an agreement with you about the toughness that's needed by young people. [1:57:16] And I have to tell you, you don't have to look at any other group that's tougher than young black men and women who go to universities, or I have gone to universities, or predominantly white schools. [1:57:30] You've got to eventually, if you're going to come out of there on top, have a thick skin. [1:57:35] I went to one of the most elite private boarding schools in the early 80s when almost nobody was there that looked like me. [1:57:46] You know what it's like to be an African-American Caribbean woman at a boarding school in Connecticut when you grew up in Brooklyn, New York, [1:57:55] and being asked to give the black point of view in the classroom when you didn't even know you had a point of view at 13 years old. [1:58:04] But I think what we need to discuss here, and my colleague Mr. Bratt talked about it, about the influence of the extreme left, [1:58:13] but he didn't talk about the influence of the extreme right as well, and how that is affecting our young people on campuses. [1:58:23] What does the alt-right as well as the extreme left doing to the discourse and the civility on campuses? [1:58:31] I'm very honored to have Ms. Dumpson, Taylor Dumpson here. [1:58:37] I am a graduate of American University's Law School, where one of my first-year law professors sits next to me. [1:58:44] I'm always happy to point out that he's more junior than I am now in Congress, but he was my professor there. [1:58:51] And I understand what you go through, and I'm grateful that your mother is here with you and that you have the support of your family. [1:58:58] That's important because, you know, the Anti-Defamation League has recently reported that in the past six months alone, I quote, [1:59:07] they have seen a spike in anti-Semitic hateful incidents on campuses. [1:59:11] And I know that we're talking about free speech. Free speech is important, but I think that it would be inclusive for us to discuss this, [1:59:19] not just in the context of how it affects conservative speech and conservative students, but how it affects all students. [1:59:26] I think that we are doing the American public a disservice when we only talk about one side of the coin and not the other. [1:59:34] I fear for our conservative young children who feel that they can't say what they want to say in a respectful manner. [1:59:44] And in the same way, I am concerned for those who come on campuses who are not respectful in their speech, whether it be to Mr. Shapiro, [1:59:53] whether it be to Taylor Dumson, having an ability to hold office on the campus for which her family has supported her to be there. [2:00:03] That's a problem. And that's a problem that this committee should be concerned with. [2:00:07] But who is the appropriate individual or the institutions to address that? [2:00:12] I don't think it's the legislature's job to do that. [2:00:17] I think it's for us to question the institutions and ensure that they do it. [2:00:22] On May 1st, after being elected the university's first African-American student body president, [2:00:28] we discussed that Ms. Dumson was met with, hung nooses around campus, some with bananas, with the message of AKA free, [2:00:38] which references Alpha Kappa Alpha, a traditionally African-American sorority that Ms. Taylor Dumson belongs to. [2:00:47] And I am me-fi-me right now myself. I'm sorry. I never belonged to a sorority. [2:00:53] But we appreciate the work of your sorority in the African-American community along with the others. [2:00:59] And not too long after, she was subjected to harassment on social media by a known neo-Nazi group. [2:01:06] So, Lawrence, are you familiar with the hate speech incidents that she, I just described? [2:01:11] Yes, I am. [2:01:12] And is that an example of hate speech that crosses the line and should have no place on a college campus? [2:01:17] That is correct, Congresswoman. I would say that's actually, you know, what I usually mean by hate speech or hateful speech is the kind of speech that is in fact protected [2:01:28] and ought to be criticized by university administrators. I would say what happened to Ms. Dumson crosses the line actually over to being a hate crime. [2:01:35] Why is that? [2:01:36] Because of the clear intent of the actor is not to communicate a view, but to threaten her, to intimidate her, to instill fear in her. [2:01:45] When that happens, we're no longer in the realm of having an even difficult, provocative conversation. We've crossed over the line into threats. [2:01:52] So, it's as Ms. Strossen discussed, that a reasonable person would see that as threatening speech, not as one that is merely to express an opinion that may be different. [2:02:05] That is certainly how I would understand it. [2:02:07] And would you agree with that as well, Ms. Strossen? [2:02:09] And I should say, the fact that we call it a hate crime or a bias crime means that it is subject to increased punishment even beyond a non-hateful or discriminatory crime, [2:02:20] because it causes additional harm not only to the immediate target, but to the surrounding community as well. [2:02:27] Now, it's interesting, Mr. Shapiro, you talked about white privilege. [2:02:32] And just this week, I had a conversation with Rachel Lazar, who's done some work, a Jewish American woman who's done some work on this area, [2:02:42] as well as having extensive conversations with Dr. Greg Parks of Wake Forest University, who's also talked quite a bit about critical race theory. [2:02:54] And it's my understanding that white privilege is not telling individuals that they cannot speak, but it is a term for societal privilege that individuals have as a benefit of their white skin. [2:03:07] And I don't think that, and I think universities would be remiss to then say that because you're white, you're not allowed to say anything that's critical of white people. [2:03:19] I didn't know that white privilege actually went into that sphere. [2:03:23] My understanding is it's just, and the issue is that white privilege makes people uncomfortable to talk about the societal privilege that they have. [2:03:31] Well, to me, what I say on campuses all the time is if you want to cite instances of racism that we can all find and fight together, [2:03:40] that's something that I'm more than willing to stand next to you and fight because that's obviously stuff that we should fight together. [2:03:46] But when you just say that there is a white privilege out there in the ether and that by dint of birth your skin color generates for you an advantage, [2:03:52] what you're really saying to people is that your view is less valuable because you have not experienced what I've experienced. [2:03:58] And that is an identity argument that's a character argument that's not a rational political argument that can actually be taken on in any way. [2:04:05] It's more of a cudgel and a club than it is an attempt to open a discussion. [2:04:10] Well, I think it's a demonstrable evidence that through society's demographics that being white has societal privileges that being black does not. [2:04:24] We can talk about how that manifests. [2:04:26] I'm also interested in what you just said now is that you would stand next to anyone who has this. [2:04:31] So, Mr. Shapiro, my question to you is, for Ms. Dumpston, the tying the noose around the campus and writing messages that target African-American young students, [2:04:42] would you consider that hate speech and then would you stand next to her and fight for her? [2:04:46] As I say, this is the first time I'm hearing about it, honestly. [2:04:49] Really? [2:04:50] Yeah. [2:04:51] But from hearing about it, maybe it's local. [2:04:54] I mean, I'm from L.A. [2:04:55] But in any case, I'm more than happy, more than happy to stand alongside her [2:05:00] and fight whatever group was responsible for this. [2:05:02] Not only more than happy. [2:05:03] I mean, you're talking about the alt-right. [2:05:04] Again, I was the number one target of anti-Semitic harassment from the alt-right last year. [2:05:08] Thank you. [2:05:09] I'm more than happy to do all that. [2:05:10] And I think there's one more distinction that has to be made. [2:05:12] When we talk about cases like Taylor's, they're horrific and the administration is siding with Taylor. [2:05:19] The administration is doing the right thing by Taylor or trying to do the right thing by Taylor, as they should be. [2:05:25] And I think that we need to make a distinction between cases where the administration is actively participating in the suppression of speech [2:05:30] and cases in which the administration is trying to do the right thing in order to make people, in order to punish people for application of crime. [2:05:39] The gentleman, the gentleman's time has expired. [2:05:41] Thank you. [2:05:42] The gentleman from North Carolina is recognized. [2:05:43] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [2:05:44] And as we look at this, this fundamental question of free speech and where we cross the line is certainly something that is not new in terms of how we argue this point. [2:05:55] And yet here I find it interesting today that some of the direction we're going seems to be at odds with what we've looked at institutions of higher learning [2:06:06] and being the beacon of free speech, which would not normally be the norm. [2:06:12] And now all of a sudden we're there. [2:06:14] And without giving a name of the particular university, I was really surprised to find that there was a free speech zone that allowed to actually be out of the mainstream view of most people. [2:06:29] And they allowed you to write in chalk, but it was the chalk that was written in the word Trump was there. [2:06:39] All of a sudden people got fearful for Trump being written in chalk. [2:06:42] Now I went by this and I can't imagine anybody being afraid of a chalk drawing on a sidewalk. [2:06:51] And if that's the case, then I would say that there's probably bathrooms all over this country where people would not want to go in for fear of what they may see on a bathroom wall. [2:07:01] So let's don't take it to extremes and let's make sure that we understand that free speech is the bedrock of who we are. [2:07:10] It is truly what we must fight for. [2:07:13] And if we start to take it to extremes, we have a problem. [2:07:17] That being said, as an evangelical, I come out very strongly in defense of my Jewish friends who truly who have had persecution for years. [2:07:28] And yet somehow on college campuses, it is not okay to defend that. [2:07:33] In fact, we go the other way to suggest that they shouldn't be defended. [2:07:37] And I find that offensive. [2:07:39] And until we get that right, we're going to have a number of issues. [2:07:44] So with that opening statement, let me go into a couple of questions. [2:07:47] Mr. Zimmerman, I'm a little concerned and I understand that you perhaps have been critical of your previous alma mater, we might say, [2:07:56] or place of employment, Evergreen State College, because I look here and we've had $22 million in grants and scholarship aids that have gone to them. [2:08:07] We've had over $7 million in federal grants that have gone to them. [2:08:12] We've had another $15 million in student loans. [2:08:15] And yet we're seeing a chilling effect on free speech. [2:08:18] Do you think they're getting it wrong? [2:08:20] Yes, I do. [2:08:22] Okay, thank you. [2:08:23] And I assume that you would say that. [2:08:25] Do you think that they took bad advice from someone when they were invited here to testify [2:08:30] and they said that a member of Congress said that they shouldn't come before the oversight committee to defend their position? [2:08:35] Do you think that that was misinformed? [2:08:38] I can answer it. [2:08:40] The answer is yes. [2:08:41] Would you agree with that? [2:08:43] That's not for me to say. [2:08:47] Well, would it be for you to say that if we're going to take away federal dollars from universities [2:08:53] who will not truly defend free speech, that that would be appropriate? [2:08:59] I'm sure that they would want to weigh in on that. [2:09:01] Oh, I believe every administrator on every campus ought to be defending free speech. [2:09:05] Absolutely. [2:09:06] All right. [2:09:07] So, Mr. Lawrence, let me come to you because I understand with your new position at ADL, [2:09:14] of which many times people on my side of the aisle would see them as being in contrast to that. [2:09:22] I don't. [2:09:23] In fact, I've encouraged my son to actually join you in really fighting for those things that are critical. [2:09:31] But I am troubled by one part of your kumbaya opening testimony. [2:09:37] I take it you mean that as a compliment. [2:09:40] Well, I wouldn't take it that way yet. [2:09:42] So let's go ahead and let's go there. [2:09:46] Here is my concern, because in your previous career, you talked about, well, we're all about free speech and we are really there. [2:09:55] And yet there was a certain young lady, a Somalia born activist that was disinvited from getting an honorary degree at your direction. [2:10:06] And it was in 2014 where Miss Ali was disinvited because, quote, the university defended this decision saying it could not, quote, [2:10:18] overlook certain of her past statements that are inconsistent with Brandeis University core values, close quote. [2:10:24] Now, the problem is she is espousing anti-Islamic views and the promotion of women's rights. [2:10:32] So which one of those are against their core views? [2:10:36] First of all, not neither of those. [2:10:38] The. [2:10:39] So they're both your core views. [2:10:40] But the. [2:10:41] What I would say. [2:10:42] No, I would say neither of those was the subject of. [2:10:45] So why did she get this? [2:10:46] Why did you disinvite her when she is being a true activist? [2:10:50] Do you think that some terrorists in some foreign land are upset and fearful for their life because of her words? [2:10:57] No, I would say two things, Congressman. [2:10:59] First, first of all, I think it's critically important. [2:11:01] So was this a correct decision? [2:11:02] If I may respond. [2:11:04] Respond to that one first and then I'll let you go ahead and opine on the other. [2:11:08] Was this a correct decision? [2:11:10] Yeah, I believe that was a correct decision. [2:11:12] Based on what? [2:11:13] May I answer? [2:11:14] Sure. [2:11:15] Briefly, I only have five minutes. [2:11:17] Well, I'll use as little of your five minutes as I can to give a full answer. [2:11:21] First, in terms of this hearing and particularly relevant to this hearing, nothing in this decision was about free speech. [2:11:28] She had my entire time as president, and I have every reason to believe my successor would say the same thing, an open invitation to speak on campus. [2:11:36] So this was not about free speech. [2:11:38] So it was just about honoring her free speech? [2:11:40] It was about honoring the same way. [2:11:42] So you didn't want to honor her free speech? [2:11:44] It's not about. [2:11:45] It protects women. [2:11:46] Her speech about women is admirable and was the reason in large part for the original invitation. [2:11:55] There was speech that specifically said that Islam should be crushed. [2:12:02] And when she was asked, this is on the record, when she was asked, you mean radical Islam, you don't mean all Islam. [2:12:08] She said, no, I mean all Islam. [2:12:10] This is a direct response to that question. [2:12:12] It must be crushed and something new built on its level. [2:12:16] If someone had said that about Christianity, if someone had said that about Judaism, that is someone who would not have been honored by Brandeis University. [2:12:24] Would they have been free to speak? [2:12:25] Absolutely. [2:12:27] So I assume since you pulled away her doctorate, you invited her back to give lectures on a regular basis, right? [2:12:34] Did that publicly and did that personally and privately? [2:12:37] And so she did. [2:12:38] She felt welcome to do that? [2:12:39] I can't say whether she felt welcome. [2:12:41] I can. [2:12:42] So did she feel welcome from you, Mr. Lawrence? [2:12:44] She did, in fact, not come to campus for a public event. [2:12:47] She did come to campus subsequently for events, a program at the business school, but she had a standing invitation. [2:12:54] So do you not see what you did had a chilling effect on her free speech? [2:12:58] You know, she's out there actually. [2:12:59] I would put it in the same category, Congressman, as a. [2:13:03] I know you would, but I wouldn't put it in the same category as what? [2:13:06] Go ahead. I'll let you finish. [2:13:07] All right. [2:13:08] A university, a faith-based university that said that although students are free to express pro-choice views, we will not give an honorary degree to someone who is an advocate. [2:13:20] So are you saying that what you should do is actually, I'll yield back. [2:13:28] Time, place, and manner. [2:13:31] I may not be the only one in the room who wanted to hear how that sentence would be. [2:13:35] Yeah. [2:13:36] So much for free speech. [2:13:38] And you all know Mr. Meadows is my best friend in Congress. [2:13:42] So the gentleman from Maryland, the professor is recognized. [2:13:47] Mr. Chairman, thank you for convening this most fascinating hearing that I've experienced in my six months in Congress. [2:13:53] So I appreciate your very much doing it. [2:13:55] I want to give a quick shout out to Taylor Dumpson, who is an American University where I've been a professor of constitutional law for the last 27 years. [2:14:04] So you guys have entered my world of constitutional law and the First Amendment, so I could be here for hours with you. [2:14:10] But I've boiled it down to four questions. [2:14:13] I'm going to try to get them all out, direct them to specific people. [2:14:15] And if you would take notes, if you would, and give me the answer back and maybe I'll follow up if I can. [2:14:21] I tell my students at law school there's only two things you have to fear, the Socratic method and the platonic relationship. [2:14:27] You've got to do it for that on your own. [2:14:29] All right. [2:14:30] Let's start with this. [2:14:31] Free speech is like an apple. [2:14:34] Everybody wants to take just one bite out of it. [2:14:36] Somebody doesn't like left-wing speech, take a bite. [2:14:38] Somebody doesn't like right-wing speech, take a bite. [2:14:40] Somebody doesn't like Nadine Strowson's eloquent defense of pornography, take a bite. [2:14:44] Some people don't like anti-pornography speech and so on. [2:14:47] At the end, there's nothing left to the apple if you're not willing to stand up for the whole thing. [2:14:51] We devour the entire thing. [2:14:53] Question for you, Ms. Strowson. [2:14:55] At a time when freedom of speech is under attack at the highest levels of the government, the media is being demonized as the enemy of the people. [2:15:04] Press conferences are being carefully micromanaged, video being shut down, Washington Post, New York Times kicked out of the press room and so on. [2:15:12] How do we overcome the negative messages that are being sent about free speech at the highest levels of government so young people understand, as Congressman Meadows said, as others have said, that this is really who we are, number one. [2:15:23] Number two, this is for Professor Lawrence. [2:15:29] Speech exists in a context of power. [2:15:32] For example, in Congress, for decades before the Civil War, there was a gag rule. [2:15:38] You couldn't mention slavery because of the power of the pro-slavery delegations. [2:15:43] It could not be mentioned on the floor of Congress. [2:15:45] That was one of the things that precipitated the Civil War. [2:15:48] Even today, it's a wonderful panel, but four of you have been chosen by the majority under our rules. [2:15:53] And one of you has been invited by the minority. [2:15:55] So speech always exists in the context of a set of complex power relationships. [2:16:00] Now, in the 1960s and 70s, tens of thousands of people were suspended, expelled, or otherwise disciplined in anti-Vietnam War protest from campuses. [2:16:09] Their speech, there was an effort to drive their speech off the campus. [2:16:12] When I was in college in the 1980s, we saw thousands of people disciplined for protesting the universities and corporate complicity with apartheid South Africa. [2:16:21] The speech codes that were used at that time then were dusted off to make life miserable for right-wing activists like Mr. Shapiro and so on. [2:16:30] Now, my question is a serious question, which is, is there an effort across partisan lines, left-right lines, to come up with a model speech code that every university and college could adopt that everybody would support universally? [2:16:43] Okay, so Mr. Lawrence, that's a few. [2:16:45] Number three, and maybe I'll address this one to Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Shapiro. [2:16:52] Are your concerns about free speech just for public universities like Berkeley or the University of Wisconsin? [2:16:57] Or do they apply to private universities too, like Yale and Harvard and Liberty Baptist or Liberty University in Virginia? [2:17:05] Georgetown, which has kicked off pro-choice speakers and shut down a gay student group at one point. [2:17:12] Catholic University, which has kicked off of campus speakers defending pro-choice. [2:17:17] And then I looked at Liberty University, for example, says that profane language is not permitted. [2:17:23] You're punished by a $250 fine and you've got to do 18 hours of community service if your speech is deemed profane. [2:17:29] Any derogatory comments of a sexual or religious or racial nature will not be tolerated. [2:17:35] Also occasion for discipline, Bob Jones University, which says there's to be no proselytizing on campus based on Calvinism or Arminianism, whatever that might be. [2:17:46] And other use of profanity or euphemisms will be occasion for discipline. Euphemisms are against the rules there. [2:17:54] So should we be equally concerned about private universities that have a religious heritage like Bob Jones, Liberty, Yale, American University, which has a Methodist origin? [2:18:03] Or are we just concerned about the public universities? I'll leave that one for you. [2:18:07] And finally, fourth question for Mr. Carolla. [2:18:12] The lost great fine art of heckling in America. [2:18:16] If you go back and read the Lincoln-Douglas debates, there was lots of heckling. [2:18:19] But they would interject something and they would wait for an answer. [2:18:22] And Lincoln and Douglas incorporated it into the debate. [2:18:25] Today, heckling is all about getting a bullhorn and shouting somebody down, which is stupid. [2:18:30] I mean, that's just a blunder of this generation if that's what they're doing. [2:18:33] Can we restore an art of heckling that allows some reasonable interchange between the audience and the speaker without shutting down speech on campus? [2:18:42] There we go. [2:18:43] Mr. Stroson, to you. [2:18:44] It's a great, great approach. [2:18:46] Five questions. [2:18:47] Four questions in five minutes. [2:18:48] Now you get another five minutes for them to respond. [2:18:50] You've been very liberal, Mr. Chairman. [2:18:51] I know. [2:18:52] Very liberal today. [2:18:53] Was I supposed to make fun of your hair during that? [2:18:56] Or I don't know if you're asking me to heckle. [2:19:02] Perhaps Professor Dreyfus could weigh in on this one. [2:19:05] Okay. [2:19:06] I think you got the answer to the fourth question right there. [2:19:12] Professor Raskin, I thought this was going to be a take-home exam, but I'm happy to answer it orally now. [2:19:17] I was going to quote the title of Nat Hentoff's book, Free Speech For Me But Not For Thee, How the Left and Right in America Are Constantly Censoring Each Other. [2:19:28] So I've found it very helpful in my education and my advocacy on free speech to always give an example that will bother that person. [2:19:38] If you hate the media for this reason because they're giving this message that you disagree with and you therefore think government should have the power to censor messages offensive to minorities. [2:19:48] Let me give you a counter example where you are in an environment where you are considered a minority and your view is a minority view and or the other way around and therefore can be subject to censorship. [2:20:01] Unfortunately, given the diversity of environments we have, including some of the private universities that you cited, I can give you an example where for one campus where perspective A is censored, there's another campus where perspective anti-A is censored. [2:20:17] And that's why we have to maintain neutrality. [2:20:20] But I think as an educator we have to give concrete examples. [2:20:23] The abstraction is not going to be persuasive. [2:20:26] Thank you. [2:20:27] Professor Lenz. [2:20:29] Is there going to be a model speech code that everybody will agree on? [2:20:32] I guess that's an easy one. [2:20:33] The answer almost certainly is no. [2:20:34] Can we make an effort in that direction? [2:20:36] I think the answer there is yes. [2:20:38] And it will look something like this. [2:20:40] A overwhelmingly strong presumption in favor of protection of free speech, certainly on campuses, of all kinds for all comers to belong on those campuses. [2:20:51] That's principle number one. [2:20:52] Principle number two, there's a limiting principle that is the kind of thing that Professor Strassen and I have been talking about. [2:20:58] Where you actually have an intent to do harm, to threaten, to intimidate. [2:21:02] Not to confound, not to trouble, but to actually literally do harm. [2:21:06] And then principle number three is that what is the obligation of a university even in the realm of protected speech when it is hateful speech? [2:21:15] I think those three principles in some form or another are going to form the model of the kind of speech codes that you'll get the broadest consensus that you can. [2:21:23] The more specific you try to be about this is in and this is out, you're going to start making mistakes. [2:21:27] And that's why virtually every university speech code has been struck down by university, by by courts. [2:21:33] Mr. Shapiro, I think. And then Mr. Carollo. [2:21:37] Yeah, I mean, as far as the distinction between public and private, I do make a very strong distinction between public and private universities when it comes to speech rights, because private universities, I believe, should have the like private business, the broadest possible purview to act in accordance with their values. [2:21:52] To censor speech. [2:21:53] If they are a private university, sure, which is why when I went to DePaul University and they threatened to arrest me, I left the campus. [2:21:58] If they had done that at Cal State L.A., I would have stayed and been arrested. [2:22:00] Okay. [2:22:01] Dr. Do you agree with that? [2:22:02] Do you think there's a free speech value we should be fighting for on private campuses as well as public? [2:22:06] Absolutely. [2:22:07] But it's a different kind of free speech right. [2:22:09] That is, the right to free speech is absolutely should absolutely be there because it's a college campus. [2:22:14] If we value college education, we have to value alternative views. [2:22:19] If we value the liberal arts, we have to value other people's ideas. [2:22:23] We can have meaningful discussion if we only have one side of that discussion. [2:22:26] But that's different than the state mandating that you have to be able to do that. [2:22:34] Mr. Heckler? [2:22:35] Geez, I want to talk about my white privilege so badly. [2:22:41] I graduated North Hollywood High with a 1.7 GPA. [2:22:47] I could not find a job. [2:22:49] I walked to a fire station in North Hollywood. [2:22:51] I was 19. [2:22:52] I was living in the garage of my family home. [2:22:55] My mom was on welfare and food stamps. [2:22:57] And I said, can I get a job as a fireman? [2:23:00] And they said, no, because you're not black, Hispanic, or a woman. [2:23:04] We'll see in about seven years. [2:23:06] And I went to a construction site and dug ditches and picked up garbage for the next seven years. [2:23:11] I got a letter in the mail sent to my father's house saying, your time has come to do the written exam for the L.A. Fire Department. [2:23:20] I took it, and I was standing in line, and I had a young woman of color standing behind me in line. [2:23:25] And I said, just out of curiosity, when did you sign up to become a fireman? [2:23:29] Because I did it, or a person, seven years ago. [2:23:33] And she said, Wednesday. [2:23:35] That is an example of my white privilege. [2:23:38] I think it's an economic privilege more than it is the color of your skin. [2:23:42] That being said, heckling people, busting their chops, making fun of them is an actual overture of love, friendship, and it's a positive thing. [2:23:55] My friends, I hang out with Jimmy Kimmel and his cousin and many, many other comedians, Jeff Ross and people of that nature. [2:24:02] And that's all we do. [2:24:04] And the day that stops, that'll be the day I know they don't like me anymore. [2:24:08] Now, obviously, doing it to strangers on campus is a different story. [2:24:14] But lightening the mood a little bit and lightening up a little bit in general when people, you know, I'm an atheist, and I go out and do things with Dennis Prager. [2:24:28] He's a devout Jew. [2:24:29] He loves it when I make Jew jokes. [2:24:31] I love it when he makes atheist jokes. [2:24:34] And that's how we know that we're friends. [2:24:36] And I'd say the same for Ben Shapiro as well, although I don't know if he loves it when I make the Jewish jokes. [2:24:43] No, it's fine with me. [2:24:45] Okay. [2:24:46] You guys are clearly not running for Congress. [2:24:51] Thank you very much for your testimony, all of you. [2:24:54] I yield back, Mr. Chairman. [2:24:55] Thank you, Professor. [2:24:56] We now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Grothman. [2:24:59] Yeah, just one quick comment for Mr. Ziruma before I ask him a question. [2:25:04] In your testimony, you said higher education has been and remains the single best way for individuals to dramatically improve their socioeconomic status. [2:25:11] There's a little bit of snobbery there I don't like. [2:25:14] But the point I'll make is, at least in my district and I think around the country, we have a lot of young people taking this stuff to heart. [2:25:21] And they wind up graduating from an institution like yours with $50,000 or $60,000 in debt. [2:25:27] They really do not find a way to move up economically and they wind up having to go back to a tech school or a trade school, which are very wonderful when they're 39 or 40 and their whole life is delayed. [2:25:39] And I want you to be conscious of this kind of unqualified worship of all forms of secondary education because I think it is leading a lot of people to a lot of trouble. [2:25:49] But I will ask you a question. [2:25:53] In Evergreen University, I don't know how many professors you have there, but can you tell me about how many professors you have and how many you think, say, voted for Trump in the last election? [2:26:04] Full-time, part-time, we have about 180 probably. I have not a clue of who they voted for. [2:26:13] You never talk about politics with any of the people hanging around that campus? [2:26:17] We certainly talk politics occasionally. I suspect not many of them voted for Trump, but I couldn't tell you. [2:26:24] You can't guess. Any of your buddies say they voted for Trump on all the times you talk? [2:26:28] There are a couple of people on campus who have, but not very many, I suspect. [2:26:32] Not very many. Ms. Strauss, NYU Law School. I'm going to give you the same question. [2:26:36] New York Law School. [2:26:38] Again, I'll go to surveys that reflect that the overwhelming majority of faculty members are Democrats and have voted for and given money to Democrats. [2:26:51] And I think this is a serious problem because when we talk about diversity, it should include ideological diversity as well as other kinds of diversity. [2:27:01] And I'm very supportive of a number of initiatives that have been started in the recent past to address this problem, one of which is called the Heterodox Academy, which was spearheaded by Jonathan Haidt, who does teach at NYU. [2:27:15] And there's a similar project called the Madison Project that's done together by Cornell West, African American, extremely liberal, some would say radical professor, together with Robert George, a conservative white male Princeton professor. [2:27:33] But all of us agree that education suffers when we have too much agreement, too much political orthodoxy in any direction. [2:27:43] Right. How many professors do you know? I mean, you guys, I assume, unlike here on the Evergreen, you must talk about who you vote for. [2:27:52] How many do you know on a personal level who voted for Trump in your faculty? [2:27:56] You know, I didn't actually ask people for whom they voted, but my educated guess would be— [2:28:00] People must talk about it in the hallway. [2:28:02] Respecting privacy, my educated guess would be extremely few. [2:28:06] Could it be not? [2:28:08] Extremely few. But here's something sad. I do know people who privately supported Donald Trump but are embarrassed to say that they voted for him. [2:28:18] Okay. So they're kind of muzzled. Okay. And my question for Mr. Carolla, and I'm sorry what you had to go through the prejudice in our country, but— [2:28:26] I landed on my wallet. [2:28:31] Do you believe part of the problem here is it's easy to hate people and demonize people if you don't know any people like that? [2:28:40] And maybe one of the reasons why we seem to have difficulty with free speech on college campuses the way you wouldn't have difficulty in other American institutions is because some of the faculty members on college campuses, they can spend, you know, extensive periods of time without talking to anybody who has political opinions significantly different than their own. Is that part of the problem? [2:29:06] Oh, absolutely. And it's—I'm sort of bewildered by it because knowing guys like Dennis Prager and Ben Shapiro, knowing them to be great guys, or even sometimes seeing what happens when Dr. Drew says something and the Twitter sphere goes ballistic and what—talking about what a bad person he is or what have you. [2:29:28] Yeah, when you get to know almost anybody, you look at them as a person rather than an idea. And we need to look at people as human beings, not ideas or representatives of ideas. And it always helps when you're exposed. [2:29:45] I personally—this may sound like a sidebar, but I grew up playing football. I played 10 years organized football. I played with every different kind of human being except the Jews actually, Ben. [2:29:56] Females? [2:29:57] Maybe the holder. [2:29:58] Females? [2:29:59] Yeah. [2:30:00] Yeah, the punter. [2:30:01] Yeah, they cheered. Yeah, it was awesome. So I got exposed to everyone and realized that everyone who came from every different neighborhood was, you know, there for one reason, and that was trying to win a game. And I think it helped a lot in my view of life. And then later on, when I stepped on a construction site, I got the same thing again. [2:30:19] So I do feel like surrounding yourself with diversity and ideas as well as skin color is a good thing. [2:30:26] Okay. Mr. Shapiro, I'm going to ask you to follow up on that. I just—you hear things in this job, people come up to you. And I do believe there are certainly departments on major American campuses in which you can spend, you know, all day walking up the hallways where the faculty work and never be exposed to anybody who voted for a candidate. [2:30:47] That about half of half Americans populist did, which is kind of amazing that you find such, you know, lack of diversity. [2:30:59] Oh, yeah. Anywhere. And I wondered if one of the reasons for the left's rage is because they sometimes do go to work on college campuses and they don't have any friends who even voted for somebody who about half the American public voted for, which is hard to believe there's anywhere in society that that kind of cloistered. [2:31:20] But I'm afraid on college campuses—I wonder if that's one of the reasons why you have this hatred for, say, people who believe in, you know, more conservative half of the American populace. [2:31:32] I think you do have some leftist professors who attempt to, you know, be open to other ideas. [2:31:37] I mean, Lonnie Guiniere was one of my professors at Harvard Law School, and she ended up writing a job recommendation for me because we got along so well. [2:31:43] And she's very far to the left. But that's more a rarity than it is the common thread. [2:31:49] I mean, even if you put aside President Trump, the fact is that I think the polls show that well under 10 percent of the faculty at Ivy League schools voted for Romney in 2012. [2:31:59] So, I mean, this has been very consistent. And this is why I think you are seeing some of the violence. [2:32:04] When I spoke at Cal State L.A., you actually saw the professors calling me a member of the KKK before I got there. [2:32:09] And so most of the students had no clue who I was, but they were perfectly willing to go out and protest and beat people up. [2:32:14] Mr. Zimmerman, are you doing anything? I assume your campus—I mean, Evergreen has got kind of a reputation. [2:32:22] Are you doing anything to— [2:32:25] We'll come back to that. We've got to move on. I think the gentleman—and I apologize. [2:32:29] We're trying to give everyone a little extra time, but we can't go too much longer. The gentleman from Florida is recognized. [2:32:34] Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to the witnesses. [2:32:38] Ben Shapiro, who came up with the thug life, Ben Shapiro? [2:32:43] I have no idea. What me? I have never listened to a complete rap song in my entire life. [2:32:50] It's funny, and it's well done. It has some of your greatest hits. Let me ask you, you mentioned the professors. [2:32:56] Obviously, the professors overwhelmingly are on the left. Some are fair and want to do. Some are more pushing in ideology. [2:33:04] But I wonder—I see some of the things that you've dealt with others. I mean, is it the professors doing this, or are these students just predisposed to do this? [2:33:12] It seems like there's a lot of radical students anyways, and a lot of them are kind of going to do this even if the professors weren't egging them on. Is that true? [2:33:19] I think there are three groups. I think there are usually a couple of radical professors who egg them on. [2:33:23] Not the entire left faculty, because that would be pretty much everyone, but like a couple of radical professors who decide that they think it's worthwhile for there to be massive protests. [2:33:31] Some student organizers. And then, very often lately, you've been seeing people bust in from the outside. [2:33:36] So, at Berkeley, you saw people coming in from Antifa and integrating with the Berkeley student population and then doing acts of violence. [2:33:44] At Cal State LA, there were a couple of busloads of people who were bused in. So, it's really those three groups, I think. [2:33:48] And when you're dealing with the anti-Semitism and anti-Israel views on campuses, is that faculty-driven or is that outside the university? [2:33:57] Well, I mean, I haven't dealt with that as much because I think that in the last couple of years, most of the opposition has been coming from the Black Lives Matter movement, from the Bernie Sanders socialist wing of the Democratic Party. [2:34:10] It hasn't been coming too much from the Israel stuff. I don't speak about the Israel stuff all that often on campus. [2:34:15] But, I mean, the BDS, I know for a lot of Jewish students on campus, it's very uncomfortable because there are a lot of professors who support boycott divestment sanctions from Israel and activate their students to do the same. [2:34:25] So, just from a conservative perspective, we look at some of what's going on on college campuses and we don't necessarily like it. [2:34:32] But, you know, we don't really want government involved in a lot of this anyways. But on the other hand, people will point out is we're funding these universities. [2:34:39] So, the American taxpayer is underwriting a lot of this stuff. So, is there a role for government given that we're funding it or is it just type of thing that, you know, we funded and we still got to just keep our hands off? [2:34:50] If we weren't funding it, then I would think that there would not be a role for the federal government at all. [2:34:54] But given, I mean, a lot of money is going to these universities. [2:34:57] Yes. I mean, the Wisconsin law that's been discussed repeatedly has been, I think, a little bit unfairly maligned because people are refusing to read the end of the phrase in the law, [2:35:04] which is that this is speech that interferes with the speech of others. [2:35:07] Meaning, if you have administrators who are basically handing a heckler's veto to people who are standing up in front of other speakers and then attempting to block it, that's not actually free speech. That's trespass. [2:35:16] So, I don't know that you need another piece of legislation. I think you do need enforcement of existing law that exists to prevent what is, in fact, criminal activity and not free speech activity. [2:35:27] But there's going to have to be some sort of consequences for administrators who don't abide by the current law because what they're doing is they are they are essentially saying we can't shut down the speech. [2:35:35] But if you go and you make a big fuss, then we'll say that in order to shut down the fuss, we have to shut down the speech. [2:35:40] And if they continue to do that, then I don't see, you know, why federal funding should be going to I don't see why my taxpayer dollars should be going to university that bans me because the university refuses to protect my right to free speech. [2:35:51] That's a good point. Now, you talked about the hierarchy of based on identity in terms of who does and like a white male would be at the bottom kind of deal. [2:36:01] But, you know, how how honest is even that standard applied? Because like somebody like a Justice Clarence Thomas, who obviously has a very compelling background, how would he be received at these universities in terms of his story, given that he's a constitutional originalist? [2:36:16] Jason Riley from The Wall Street Journal. I mean, it's it's obviously it's intersectionality in that philosophy is a stand in for hardcore leftism. [2:36:23] And it's just a way of using multiculturalism as the entree to leftist points of view. [2:36:28] It isn't actually as you say, if Clarence Thomas says something, nobody on the left is going to say, well, you know, he suffered as a black man. [2:36:35] So his perspective is more valuable than Joe Biden's perspective on a particular issue. [2:36:39] You're not going to hear anyone on the left ever say that. Carolla, thanks for coming. [2:36:43] Thank you, man with the tan from Florida. Try my best. [2:36:48] You don't have to recognize him as the man from Florida. We can all see where he hails from. [2:36:53] Yeah, no. Well, I appreciate that. It's hot there. We don't have the the temperate climate that you guys have in L.A. [2:37:00] So it's it's 95 and heating right now. [2:37:04] Well, it's it's dry, but there are a lot of blowhards there in L.A. [2:37:07] So there's a lot of hot wind blowing around. [2:37:10] So what do you I mean, you've kind of come here. We appreciate it. [2:37:14] You know, you look at this experience. [2:37:16] How do you view kind of what goes on in Washington as potentially being able to help stand up for free speech? [2:37:22] Because we get involved in things. A lot of times we make it worse. [2:37:28] You know, I I've I've I hosted a show called Love Line for over a decade, and I had a very unique perspective because I was able to talk to troubled kids, teenagers, two hours a night for a decade. [2:37:45] And I really got to learn something about young people and how they work and what works and what doesn't work. [2:37:54] And, you know, people say, well, you're not a professor. You never read a book. You never went to college. [2:37:59] How are you an expert on this? And I say, well, I'm a journeyman carpenter as well. [2:38:05] I've never read a book on carpentry. And who would you like to build your house? [2:38:08] Someone who read a book on it or someone who just did it every day for over a decade. [2:38:13] And I learned that all of these problems that we're talking about free speech, discrimination, hatred toward other people and drug addiction, violence, crime, it all stems from the family. [2:38:27] And when the family is intact, much of this stuff just goes away. [2:38:31] You don't have to legislate it away. [2:38:33] It just goes away because people are brought up in intact families with decent, caring parents, whatever their color, whatever their background is. [2:38:41] And then they produce little, decent individuals who go off to college or a job place of work. [2:38:48] And they don't need to be coached up and they don't need to be legislated and they don't need to be bloviated by people like us. [2:38:54] They grew up in an intact family. So my feeling is all the stuff we're talking about is at the outside of the rim. [2:39:02] The hub is the family and the discussions should center around the family and who is creating these people who think it'd be a good idea to take a baseball bat to the window of a Starbucks in their community. [2:39:16] Well, I think that's well put. And if we could deal with that core, the free speech stuff, and a whole host of other problems would go. [2:39:24] And that's better than any tax bill or anything else we could be doing. [2:39:27] And obviously it's not going to be government's role per se. It's a societal thing. [2:39:30] But, Mr. Chairman, thanks for your leadership on this issue. [2:39:32] Well said. Well said. To our panel, my goal was 12 o'clock. We're going to be pretty close. [2:39:37] It may go a few minutes after. If that's okay with everyone, we have two others and then maybe a couple other questions from the ranking member myself to close things out. [2:39:47] Mr. Heiss from Georgia is recognized. [2:39:50] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you allowing me to be a part of this hearing today. [2:39:56] Mr. Shapiro, I feel for you and I met just recently with a group of Jewish students who had experienced a great deal of very difficult from lack of free speech to harassment and all sorts of things on the various college campuses that they represent. [2:40:13] I am also an evangelical Christian and I've seen it on the other side as well and have been, in fact, on the front line of this for a long, long time where Christian students are disallowed to even share their faith. [2:40:26] They're restricted to free speech zones where Christian organizations are kicked off campuses or even forced to allow non-Christians to take leadership roles in the Christian organizations. [2:40:39] Like how backwards can this possibly be? And in many instances, Christian perspective is even looked upon his hate speech, which is absolutely astounding to me where this is going. [2:40:51] And I want to transition, Ms. Strawson to you. I appreciate you being here as well. Are you familiar with implicit bias testing? [2:40:58] Yes. [2:40:59] Okay. This is intended to detect biases or prejudices from individuals by various tests. Some colleges are actually using these tests now. [2:41:10] to force those who fail the test to be cured of their biases, prejudice, whatever it may be. In essence, creating on campuses thought police. Are you, you're aware of this? I see it by your reaction. [2:41:28] I'm shocked. And of course, I am against creating thought crimes. I am completely in favor of information. I've taken one of those implicit bias tests. [2:41:40] And it's very interesting. So if it's presented to you as a way to expand your horizons about subconscious or semi-conscious assumptions and stereotypes to which all of us are prone. Many atheists have negative stereotypes about evangelicals and vice versa. [2:41:58] Sure, we all have those. But we should overcome them through education, not through indoctrination. [2:42:03] Well, and they're not necessarily wrong, one view or another. We've got to accept the fact that you're different from I am and I'm different from you and it's okay. Absolutely. We can disagree. [2:42:11] So a college really has no business trying to cure people of their background. [2:42:16] Absolutely not. That would be a violation of everything the First Amendment stands for, everything that academic freedom stands for. [2:42:22] Absolutely. Let me kind of go on. What are some of the biases that are identified as needing to be cured? Are you aware of that? [2:42:29] I'm sorry. All right. Well, let's let's go on. I don't have time to dig into this. There's so much more to deal with. [2:42:36] But would you not agree that when a university or college whatever starts branding people as hateful, as bigots, as politically incorrect, as whatever, [2:42:46] and then creating an effort to cure them of those deficiencies, the school is in itself creating a thought police environment that is very dangerous. [2:42:56] And it's also something that violates equality principles, right? We're talking about trying to create campuses where everybody feels welcome and included and part of the community. [2:43:07] And to stigmatize people because of their beliefs or their ideas is as offensive to equality and free speech principles as stigmatizing people because of the color of their skin. [2:43:18] Not to mention that. It's also an American and unconstitutional force. [2:43:21] And bad education and ineffective. You're not. Let's assume the worst. Let's assume somebody is a convinced hate monger. [2:43:29] You're not likely to dissuade that person from discriminatory views by treating that person as an outcast. That's the least effective way to persuade that person to change his ideas. [2:43:41] Absolutely. I appreciate what you said a while ago, too, about the vast majority of professors are Democrat or left leaning, whatever it may be. [2:43:51] While we were in fact sitting here, I did a quick search. It's not from my state. The University of Georgia profs are 12 to one Democrat over Republicans. [2:44:01] I think from what you're sharing and from my experience, that's probably fairly consistent across the country. I can't fully explain it, but it does have an impact on the overall culture that is created [2:44:12] and the resistance towards those who disagree with a political. And I'm sure you and I would make the same negative conclusion if it was skewed the other way. Sure. [2:44:22] Right. Absolutely. Now, we've got these speech codes in place. It's been identified already a lot about this. We have court decisions that, as one of you mentioned a while ago, [2:44:37] the court decisions overwhelmingly have ruled against the majority of the speech codes in universities. And yet, to this day, about 40% of our colleges still have speech codes in place [2:44:49] against what has been determined by the rule of law. And why is that? [2:44:55] You know, law is not self-enforcing. The Constitution is not self-enforcing. We still have segregated schools all these decades after Brown versus Board of Education. [2:45:06] And that's why it's so important for organizations like the ACLU, FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education to be able to bring lawsuits to actually enforce principles. [2:45:17] I mean, the examples of using so-called time, place and manner restrictions as a pretext for suppressing ideas, that's illegal and unconstitutional. But you have to bring a lawsuit in order to vindicate that position. And if I may say, Congressman, just last, a couple of weeks ago, [2:45:35] a couple of weeks ago, the United States Supreme Court unanimously said, speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful. [2:45:46] But the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express the thought we hate. If only we could have the same unanimity in society as a whole, [2:45:58] as those very ideologically diverse justices have on that cornerstone principle. [2:46:04] Mr. Chairman, I'm not going any further because I know I'm not even a part of this subcommittee. And again, I appreciate you letting me be a part of it. [2:46:11] I've got a lot more to cover, though. But where this is going with the clear distinction between one viewpoint versus another, creating a culture of intimidation and silencing a particular viewpoint has got to be dealt with. [2:46:24] And I thank you for leading this year. I thank the gentleman and now recognize the wait a minute. [2:46:29] Now recognize the second tan man from Florida. Mr. Rooney is recognized. [2:46:35] Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for the opportunity to make a few comments about free speech here and for your taking the liberty of highlighting the problems that we face. [2:46:44] Under the guise of protecting students, the freedom to express views not deemed acceptable to an intolerant judgmental elite is being attacked and denounced by students, professors and occasionally administrators. [2:46:56] These people have the intellectual arrogance to think they should decide for all of us which ideas are to be heard and which are not. [2:47:03] This to me reeks of totalitarianism, which, as we all know, creeps in gradually and until it takes root. [2:47:10] In The Road to Serfdom, Frederick Hayek described how the threat of totalitarianism in Europe in the 1930s was foreshadowed by a society moving away from the basic ideas on which European civilization had been built. [2:47:25] This behavior in the United States today contradicts the original concept of what a university should be and how it originated in its medieval beginnings as venues promoting the free exchange and rigorous debate. [2:47:37] Colleges use many different methods to suppress free speech. One such example are these free speech zones, which have been talked about here on campus. [2:47:47] To me, the mere idea of a free speech zone is wholly incompatible with the Constitution of the United States, and it turns the words free speech into a gross oxymoron. [2:47:58] This transforms an absolute truth, a right guaranteed under our Constitution, into a negotiable, transient morsel of policy. [2:48:07] I wonder which of our constitutional rights and liberties will be next. [2:48:11] An ironic case at Kellogg Community College in Michigan, you can't make this stuff up. [2:48:16] Students were arrested for handing out copies of the United States Constitution without the administration's permission. [2:48:23] How incredible is this? In their greatest hopes, Marx and Lenin couldn't have been bold enough to try this. [2:48:29] Cancellation of conservative speakers and events on campus has become another method for constraining freedom, as has been talked about here. [2:48:37] Following protests and sometimes riotous behavior by the scripted, biased students and faculty, many administrators and boards and trustees seem to prefer acquiescence and political correctness instead of confrontation, willing to accept the connected erosion of freedom. [2:48:55] In 2014, protests by leftist students at Rutgers caused former Secretary of State Rice to cancel a commencement speech. [2:49:03] This is an individual who rose up from desperate circumstances with a life of persistence and achievement like none other. [2:49:10] Condi is certainly the American dream. [2:49:12] This year, again, violent student riots at Berkeley caused the school to cancel a speech by the conservative writer and speaker Ann Coulter. [2:49:21] So much for colleges fostering an environment of free speech. [2:49:24] Further, many college professors seek to indoctrinate and discourage free debate in class. [2:49:29] Much has been written about this, leading to something called groupthink. [2:49:32] The desire for conformity replaces rational thought, and conservative opinions are routinely suppressed, as has been talked about in this hearing today. [2:49:41] This lack of ideological diversity in academia undermines the free exchange of ideas, and it's no wonder that so much has been written about the lack of critical thinking skills of younger Americans. [2:49:54] Colleges and universities that refuse to respect and enforce our laws and the Constitution should not be subsidized by the United States of America. [2:50:03] Our taxpayers should not have to pay for infringements against our Constitution. [2:50:07] If schools want to go it alone, free of taxpayer money, they can and should do whatever they want to do. [2:50:12] Many has been said that about here today. [2:50:15] The schools that take our taxpayer money should follow the Constitution and be thankful that we have it. [2:50:20] Not all colleges and universities have succumbed to this political correctness. [2:50:23] We know that Mitch Daniels made a very strong statement in 2015 at Purdue to protect academic freedom and individual liberty. [2:50:30] John Ellison at the University of Chicago, not exactly known as a conservative bastion, did the same thing, denouncing these free speech zones and things like that. [2:50:40] And I'd like to also finish with the idea that the real world, the one where us carpenter apprentices and journeyman carpenters grow up, by the way, doesn't recognize free speech zones. [2:50:52] Colleges and universities that promote them are committing what I consider to be educational malpractice, failing to prepare students for a life beyond the cocoon of campus. [2:51:02] Higher education should be a platform for the peaceful exchange of ideas and debate and formation, where learning comes from having one's beliefs challenged and having to defend them. [2:51:12] That's what the original university was about, and that's what we need in America. [2:51:15] If we can get back there, then maybe we will find that we have a new generation of critically thinking Americans that can take our country to even greater heights. [2:51:23] Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having me. [2:51:25] You bet. I think the gentleman, the gentlelady from Florida has recognized Ms. Deming. [2:51:28] Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. [2:51:31] And, you know, we've had a, I believe, a very robust conversation today about the First Amendment, which we know is guaranteed by the United States Constitution. [2:51:45] We've talked about a lot of things, but we've also talked about a young woman who was attending American University, was elected president of the student government by her peers. [2:52:05] And instead of celebrating, was a victim of harassment. [2:52:12] She was threatened, victim of cyber bullying and hate crimes. [2:52:19] I believe that Taylor Dumpson represents thousands of students in this country who are just trying to live the American dream. [2:52:30] And since one of my colleagues thought it necessary to issue out an apology today, I'd like to issue an apology to Taylor Dumpson for what she had to endure. [2:52:46] Someone who was doing it right and was the victim of hate crimes, not just hate speech, but hate crimes as investigated by the FBI. [2:53:00] That's my statement, Mr. Chairman. [2:53:02] And I'd also like to ask permission to enter a unanimous consent to introduce an article. [2:53:10] KCC response to political organizations lawsuit into the record. [2:53:15] Without objection. [2:53:16] Thank you so much. [2:53:17] I yield back. [2:53:18] I thank the gentlelady. [2:53:19] Just we'll close out here with a few more questions. [2:53:21] But first, I do want to recognize Ms. Taylor Dumpson as well. [2:53:25] Obviously, what happened to you on campus is wrong, should not be tolerated, and is just disgusting. [2:53:31] But we appreciate you overcoming that. [2:53:33] And the fact that you're a student government president, someday you're going to be sitting up here asking to do the same kind of hearing. [2:53:41] And we look forward to those days in the future as well. [2:53:45] But my guess is, at American University, they probably had some diversity training. [2:53:51] They probably had some bias training. [2:53:53] So maybe this gets to the point Mr. Corolla made earlier. [2:53:56] It's not all the bias training and diversity and these tests kids have to take now or students have to take now. [2:54:03] Do you – well, let me just go to Mr. Shapiro. [2:54:05] Do you think this – the bias training is something that is actually helpful? [2:54:09] I don't think it's effective. [2:54:12] I think that, in fact, it tends to alienate a lot of the people who feel like I'm not a racist. [2:54:16] Why am I being forced to endure the implication that I'm a racist and I have the necessity of undergoing bias training? [2:54:22] Yeah. [2:54:23] I mean, it seems to me that either Americans – their bias training is not any good or it's just largely probably not – [2:54:29] People who tie nooses around bananas are not going to be dissuaded from doing so by bias training. [2:54:33] They're garbage human beings. [2:54:34] To Mr. Corolla's point, right? [2:54:36] It's a lot more about what kind of background and belief system they bring to the university. [2:54:43] I agree wholeheartedly. [2:54:46] That starts at home. [2:54:47] Anyone who's been in the corporate world knows you have to have sexual harassment training as well. [2:54:55] And the cases of sexual harassment have probably gone up tenfold since the training began. [2:55:00] So I don't see any direct line from training to effective application of it. [2:55:07] In fact, it could be almost a converse, right? [2:55:09] I feel it is. [2:55:11] Yes. [2:55:12] But Mr. Corolla also talked about the positive impact of actually working together with a diverse group of people. [2:55:19] And I think that's what we have to do. [2:55:21] We have to bring people together in education and work and other contexts. [2:55:26] You know, and it's been my experience, some of the strongest advocates for left policy – and I always use the example – one of my good friends is Dennis Kucinich. [2:55:37] And you cannot get farther apart than Jim Jordan and Dennis Kucinich. [2:55:41] But we have respect. [2:55:42] And a lot of times where we really work together is on civil liberty issues, these kind of issues. [2:55:48] That's why I so appreciate this panel we have here today. [2:55:51] I mean, that's how it's supposed to work. [2:55:53] So there was talk earlier about a speech code. [2:55:55] It seems to me the speech code is the one that's right behind me, right? [2:55:58] Isn't that the speech code in America, the First Amendment itself? [2:56:02] Speech code and common sense, as Mr. Corolla has talked about. [2:56:06] So, Mr. Shapiro, your thoughts on a speech code? [2:56:09] Or shouldn't it be the First Amendment? [2:56:11] Shouldn't that be sufficient? [2:56:13] Absolutely. [2:56:14] And I think that we're moving into very dangerous territory when we start identifying speech as violence. [2:56:18] And that, I think, is what's happening more and more often in our politics. [2:56:21] I think it's happening on college campuses. [2:56:23] When you start saying that what you say offends me to the point where I'm going to treat it as violence, then we are moments away from an actual violent conflagration. [2:56:31] And that has to stop immediately. [2:56:33] Do you think, Mr. Shapiro, that some of the things we have seen from the federal government are contributing to the, what I would describe as, you know, crazy situation we see on many campuses, situations you've had to go through and live through. [2:56:50] Do you think some of the things that the federal government has done are chilling free speech on college campuses? [2:56:56] And specifically, and frankly, what prompted my renewed interest or greater interest, I should say, in this series of hearings we're having on the First Amendment, was a few years ago when we discovered that an agency with the power and the ability to intimidate and impact people's lives, the agency known as the Internal Revenue Service, was systematically, and for a sustained period of time, [2:57:19] targeting people for their political beliefs. [2:57:22] Do you think that has some chilling impact on what may in fact be happening on our, what is in fact happening on our college campuses? [2:57:27] I mean, sure. [2:57:28] When people have an enormous amount of power, whether it's at an administrative level or at the federal level, they tend to use it in ways that benefit the side that they, that they control. [2:57:37] And, and that's, that, that has, I mean, I think you've seen this, it's a completely different topic, but I think you've seen this in the, in the context of how a lot of the sexual assault hearings are taking place on campus now. [2:57:48] Or they're taking place under Title IX auspices and they don't actually follow any sort of constitutional due process procedures. [2:57:54] That's, that's an area where the federal government has gotten involved and, and really overridden individual rights. [2:58:00] And listen, nobody is in favor of sexual assault. [2:58:02] Everyone wants to see rapists prosecuted. [2:58:04] But we, we need to come back to some sort of rational standard of application, not just what we wish we could do in, in some sort of utopia. [2:58:11] Oh, just, just two final points. Mr. Raskin raised the, the, the point earlier that the majority party invites four of the witnesses, that the minority party invites one. [2:58:21] That's standard practice. [2:58:22] I would point out of the four witnesses, I think probably two come from, four majority witnesses, probably two come from the left on the political, uh, uh, spectrum. [2:58:31] Uh, Mr. Shapiro hasn't exactly been a fan of the, uh, current administration. [2:58:35] Uh, and I don't know exactly what Mr. Carolla's, uh, I, I, I tend to, I would think he's fairly libertarian. [2:58:42] But I don't know if he's Republican or Democrat. [2:58:44] So we tried to invite people who believe in the sign that's behind me. [2:58:47] That's what we tried to do. [2:58:48] And people who are willing to defend it, who are willing to say that this is paramount to the American experience and who we are as a nation. [2:58:55] And that's what this, uh, series of hearings that we're undertaking in this committee, um, are all about. [2:59:01] So final question is to the, the heckler in the middle. [2:59:04] When is the, uh, when's the movie coming out again? [2:59:07] No safe spaces. [2:59:08] Uh, Dennis Prager and myself have, uh, gotten together to do this subject. [2:59:13] Uh, but the, uh, 86 minute version of it, not the 477 minute version. [2:59:20] Yes, my bladder's very angry at you. [2:59:23] Um, I think it's coming out mid early, uh, 2018. [2:59:28] So look forward to that. [2:59:29] Well, we look forward to it as well. [2:59:31] I want to thank each of you for being here today and participating in this important hearing. [2:59:35] And we look forward to having more. [2:59:36] And frankly, what we're going to do, we may invite some of you back, but we certainly want to have some of the, uh, students, maybe even some of them who are in the room. [2:59:43] A gentleman from Alabama. [2:59:44] I'm sorry. [2:59:45] I just want to thank the students for coming and I hope you look back on this and count this as one of the best days in your education that you've ever had. [2:59:55] I yield back. [2:59:56] I thank the gentleman. [2:59:57] With that, we are adjourned. [2:59:58] Thank you very much. [2:59:59] Thank you very much.