Ben Shapiro vs. Cenk Uygur [FULL DEBATE] — Politicon 2017

[0:00] Editor-in-Chief of The Daily Wire and host of The Ben Shapiro Show, Ben Shapiro. [0:27] All right. [0:32] And founder and host of The Young Turks, Cenk Uygur. [1:01] All right. [1:02] If you guys can be a little more excited, that would be great. [1:09] All right. [1:11] Well, we're here to debate the future of the political parties. [1:18] And let me just say quickly one thing about the format. [1:20] I'm going to pose questions to both of our speakers here. [1:24] We'll have a response. [1:26] We can have a re-response. [1:27] We can go back and forth a few times. [1:29] When we've gone far enough, then I will step in. [1:32] I might ask a follow-up question or I might switch the topic. [1:35] So are we ready to go, guys? [1:36] All right. [1:42] Well, let's start with one of the topics in the news today, and that's health care. [1:47] And I'm going to start with Ben. [1:48] Are you proud or disappointed in establishment and GOP figures like John McCain, [1:55] Lisa Murkowski, and Susan Collins for their vote on health care? [1:59] So I'm wildly disappointed with the entire party. [2:02] The fact is that we were promised a full repeal of Obamacare. [2:05] They did not even attempt to pursue a full repeal of Obamacare. [2:07] And the fact of the matter is that there's a significant gap inside the Republican Party [2:14] about whether this should even happen or not. [2:16] There are people who believe that the Obamacare regulations are an affirmative good. [2:20] There was an attempt to basically leave all the Obamacare regulations in place [2:24] and just remove the funding mechanism, which would have led to the exacerbation of the death spiral. [2:28] The truth about health care is this. [2:29] There are three qualities of health care that you can have. [2:32] You can have affordability, you can have universality, or you can have quality. [2:35] And you can have two of those three things, but not all three. [2:38] You can have universality, affordability, or quality. [2:40] Two of those three things you can have. [2:42] And one of the things that's happened with Obamacare is that you've gotten closer to universality, [2:46] but you haven't gotten any closer to either affordability or quality. [2:49] And the Republican Party seems to be falling into the trap of basically just copying what the Democrats do [2:55] except being worse at it. [2:56] What they actually need to do is relieve the regulatory burden that is driving up the cost of health care, [3:01] and they need to stop acting as though insurance companies' jobs [3:04] is actually just to reimburse people for their bad health. [3:08] If you join up with an insurance company and your health sucks to begin with, [3:11] you're going to pay more because it's an insurance company, not a charity. [3:14] Now, that doesn't mean that we can't have some form of backup for people who have pre-existing conditions. [3:26] I would hope that the social fabric would help fill that in. [3:28] This is why I'm a big believer in charity and churches and synagogues filling that gap. [3:33] But what we can't do is suggest, as the Bernie Sanders left does, [3:37] that health care is an inalienable right, and therefore you can put a gun to my wife's head, [3:40] she's a doctor, and you can force her to provide care at any cost you want to pay. [3:45] You can't do that and hope to increase the supply of health care. [3:48] Health insurance is not health care. [3:50] They're not the same thing. [3:51] And anybody who tells you differently is lying or trying to sell you something. [4:00] Cenk, your take on the health care vote. [4:02] Great. [4:03] Before I do that, first of all, welcome to the Thunderdome. [4:10] Let's hear him speak. [4:17] Guys, wait until he does something. [4:18] In all seriousness, the reason that I kid around about that is that I really want to make sure [4:25] that Ben's opinions are heard and my opinions are heard and that this is an exchange of ideas. [4:31] And believe it or not, there are some things that we do agree on, and we won't be discussing those tonight. [4:45] So on the issue of health care, let's get going. [4:50] So the Democratic Party is incredibly proud that they defeated a bill that had 17% approval rating. [4:57] It's a low bar. [4:58] And I'm glad they held. [5:01] The Republicans have a comical position, which is that why didn't the Democrats help us defeat Obamacare? [5:07] Well, that's kind of because that was their idea. [5:09] And why in God's green earth would they help you defeat their own plan? [5:13] Now, is Obamacare enough? [5:14] Not nearly. [5:15] And there are a number of issues that we had as progressives with it, including lack of price controls. [5:20] You left it in the hands of private insurance, and of course, them being corporations, which Ben kind of alluded to there, [5:26] they're going to want to make money. [5:28] And so that is very, very normal. [5:30] And so I don't think that that was the right way to approach it, and it was originally a Heritage Foundation plan to begin with. [5:35] So I believe that the right approach and the one that Democrats should pursue next, although they probably won't, is Medicare for All. [5:50] So real quick, let me explain why. [5:53] Medicare polls at 77% and actually accomplishes the three things that Ben talked about. [5:58] It's universal coverage, it is affordable, and actually gives you good insurance. [6:02] That's why it polls at 77%. [6:05] And Medicare for All now polling at 60%. [6:09] Federally funded health insurance for everybody polling at 61%. [6:14] So I tell my Democratic friends, you might want to try something that's popular for a change. [6:24] So, and finally, like, on the idea that, hey, listen, everybody can't get health care. [6:29] Well, this is not like furniture, which sometimes you allude to, Ben. [6:33] You look, you could have good furniture, bad furniture, I've had it all, right? [6:37] That's optional. [6:38] If you don't have good health care, you die. [6:39] And, and so I view it as not something that capitalism should deal with, and I, and I believe in capitalism, and I think they make great sneakers, but something that, something that is about equality of opportunity. [6:58] And you cannot have equality of opportunity if you're dead. [7:02] So Medicare for All. [7:06] Okay. [7:06] Go ahead. [7:07] Go ahead. [7:07] Get up. [7:07] So a couple of, a couple of notes in response to the Medicare for All shtick. [7:10] So this is Bernie Sanders shtick, obviously. [7:12] The problem with Medicare for All is that when people say that it's affordable, this isn't affordable to the person who has the Medicare. [7:17] It is not affordable to the country. [7:19] In fact, it is so unaffordable to the country that the state of California was a nutjob leftist state, just refused to even pass Medicare for All because it would have immediately doubled the debt. [7:28] As far as the idea that Medicare, that medical care is, is a right, but it's not actually a good or a service, this is a way to make things less plentiful. [7:44] If you declare things right, but you don't actually incentivize the creation of those things, you don't get more of them. [7:49] So the South African constitution has a right in there that health care is a right, that housing is a right. [7:54] The fact is that you don't have good housing or health care in South Africa because just declaring things right does not make them appear. [8:00] What makes more things appear is a market-based system that creates more doctors, that creates more medical care, that creates more incentive for people to join up. [8:10] So my wife is a doctor. [8:11] I mean, she has to go through a thousand years of medical training, and we have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to make her a doctor. [8:16] The idea that you're going to have the government come in and then dictate the sort of care that she should provide to each particular patient, and then dictate how much you should be paid for that care, is going to lead to a decrease in the number of people who are going into the medical industry, which decreases the level of care overall. [8:30] This is why I say that it is better to treat things as goods than as rights, because declaring something a right just means that you have the right to steal it from me. [8:38] But declaring something a good means that you get a market process that leads to lower prices and better care over time. [8:43] And the big problem we've had before Obamacare is that it was already treated quasi as a right. [8:47] You had it heavily regulated on the state level. [8:49] It is continually heavily regulated. [8:51] There's a completely unregulated market. [8:53] It's absolute nonsense. [8:54] The reason that you have employer-based health insurance in the first place was as a response to wage and price controls placed in the aftermath of World War II, and employers began giving health insurance as an actual good, right? [9:04] They gave it as an actual incentive to their employees. [9:07] If you had an actual individual-based health insurance market, you bought it just like you bought your car insurance, you would see more and better health care for everything. [9:13] Yep. [9:21] All right. [9:22] So, Ben, I don't want to steal health insurance from you. [9:25] I want you to be healthy. [9:26] That's why I want Medicare for all. [9:31] You just want to take my money and my wife's services. [9:34] So, you know, Republicans frame taxes as stealing. [9:38] That's preposterous. [9:39] So, if we don't have taxes, if we don't have taxes, well, we can't do all the things that we want to do as a community. [9:49] Now, there are some things that we just talked about that we don't want to do as a community. [9:53] We want to do as individuals. [9:54] In fact, the things that we want to do as individuals are much greater. [9:58] That's why we're a mixed economy but largely capitalist, and I agree with that. [10:02] And I run a small business myself, getting larger every day. [10:05] So, but there are some things that the government should do. [10:10] They should do the military, cops, roads, bridges, and, yes, education and health care. [10:15] That's because, you know, conservatives seem a little confused about how health care works. [10:20] Paul Ryan had a whole press conference about this. [10:23] Ben a little bit alluded to it there. [10:25] They're like, oh, my God, it turns out the healthy subsidized the sick. [10:30] Yeah, that's insurance. [10:32] That's how it works. [10:35] It's like the people with, that are not getting into accidents are subsidizing the accidents. [10:42] Yes, that's car insurance. [10:44] That's how insurance works. [10:47] And, yes, taxes work in that we all decide we're going to do X but we're not going to do Y. [10:53] And I think it is fair for a society to say that, yes, we are going to do health care for everybody. [10:58] Everybody. [10:59] We're not going to leave 20 million people uninsured. [11:01] We're not going to leave 30 million people uninsured. [11:03] That's not what we do in a civilized society. [11:10] And from time to time, they, you know, in the attack against Medicare, they say, oh, it's an entitlement. [11:16] Yeah, we paid for it through payroll taxes our whole lives. [11:20] You're goddamn right we're entitled to it because we paid for it. [11:24] We paid for it. [11:25] And so when you take out the middlemen of the insurance companies that put their profits in there, [11:31] that put their marketing in there, that put their lobbyist money in there, [11:35] that means more savings for Americans. [11:38] And so finally, you know, the idea that it can't be done is preposterous [11:44] since every other Western developed country does some version of single payer. [11:49] It obviously can be done and it is done at lower rates and better coverage. [11:55] So let me add something to this question, and you can respond to it if you want to. [12:04] But Cenk referenced Paul Ryan. [12:06] When the Republicans took control of Congress, Paul Ryan, the Speaker of the House, famously said, [12:12] we need to switch from being an opposition party to being a proposition party. [12:17] So what's your evaluation been of their efforts in that direction to unite the party and move legislation forward? [12:23] I mean, we all have eyes. [12:24] They suck at it. [12:25] I mean, and Paul Ryan is not exactly my go-to guy when it comes to political acumen and genius. [12:32] So I'd more want to respond to some of the contentions that Cenk was making about Medicare for all and single payer health care. [12:38] A couple of things. [12:39] One, when you say we pay for it, that's not technically true. [12:42] The idea that everybody who's paying into Medicaid paid for it and now they get out what they paid in is obviously not true. [12:47] It's a redistributive program, and to pretend otherwise is just silly. [12:50] The people who are paying the payroll taxes are not the people who are taking out through Medicaid, obviously. [12:54] Can I just address that super quick? [12:56] So we're talking about Medicare, right, not Medicaid. [13:00] Right. [13:00] So in Medicare, so you're both correct and incorrect. [13:03] So it's not like I put in $20 and I get $20 back. [13:06] That part is true. [13:07] Right. [13:08] But we all pay into Medicare together, and then we all get it when we are sick, which is insurance. [13:13] So can I ask you a question? [13:13] I have two questions, really serious questions. [13:15] One, what is your ideal tax rate? [13:17] Because it's going to cost a lot of money for a lot of this stuff. [13:20] And two, what is your ideal level of medical care? [13:22] Because the fact is that we can spend millions of dollars on people in end-of-life care. [13:27] We can spend millions of dollars on surgeries and preventative care. [13:30] I mean, health care is an expensive business even under a single payer system, which is why generally you end up with rationing. [13:35] So what is your ideal level of health care that is provided to everyone, and what sort of tax rate are you proposing to subsidize that? [13:41] Yeah. [13:42] So those are very, very fair questions. [13:43] So let's talk about taxes for a second. [13:46] So conservatives agree, or say all the time, that the golden era of America was the 1950s and 1960s. [13:54] Well, there's a lot of truth to that. [13:56] Our economy was booming at the time, and we became the number one economy in the world at that time. [14:00] The tax rate for the highest bracket fluctuated between 70 and 91 percent. [14:05] So that is when we were at our best. [14:09] Now, I want to be clear. [14:12] I'm also a businessman, and boy, that seems high. [14:15] It does, okay? [14:16] And one of the reasons my family were Republicans when I was growing up was because before Reagan came in, the highest marginal tax rate was 70 percent. [14:24] So now we are nowhere near that. [14:28] We have reduced taxes to bare bones, and we have shifted the taxes onto the middle class and away from the rich and corporations. [14:37] So there is a much better balance to be had. [14:41] And if you said to me, well, you're going to have $800 in taxes that are new, I'd say, wow, that hurts. [14:47] But you're going to save $1,000 in premiums, deal. [14:50] That is a deal I will take every time because I can do math. [14:53] Okay. [14:54] So that is the beginning of your answer to taxes. [14:58] And then you said, how much care? [15:00] Well, so that is something that all the countries that do single payer or a version of single payer struggle with, [15:05] and they have learned a lot of lessons. [15:07] And if we stop saying, America's number one, we might actually just, first of all, on this issue, we're number 37. [15:13] And if we looked at what Japan is doing so well, keeping costs down to half of ours and less, [15:19] we might actually learn something from Japan, Switzerland, and other countries. [15:23] And by the way, when we say Medicare for all, Medicare Advantage exists. [15:27] So you can actually add private insurance on top of that, and I find that perfectly great. [15:32] I have no problems with that at all. [15:33] So that is the government making sure you don't die and actually lowering rates for you. [15:40] And then if you want more insurance, no problem. [15:42] So all this sounds great except for the fact that Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security eat up 66% of the federal budget every single year. [15:47] The idea that all of these socialized medicine countries have it so much better than we do, [15:51] particularly in terms of cancer care, is a joke. [15:53] We are still number one in terms of five-year cancer survival rate here in the United States. [15:57] And when you talk about top marginal tax rates in the 1950s, there are a couple things that are worth noting. [16:06] One, that was top individual marginal tax rates, not necessarily the business tax rate. [16:10] We now have some of the highest corporate tax rates altogether in the industrialized world. [16:15] And if you would prefer for us to destroy half of the world before we become the only country [16:19] that didn't have its industrial capacity destroyed, which is what happened in the 1940s, [16:23] leading to us being the only productive country on planet Earth, essentially, for the next two decades, [16:27] I'm not with you there. [16:29] I'm not really in favor of having a giant world war that destroys all industrial capacity across the West [16:33] so we're the only people who actually have the capacity to produce anything [16:36] and just markets that we can provide to. [16:38] Right. [16:39] So, first of all, it is fair to say that, of course, the 1950s and 60s were different. [16:43] We'd just come out of the war. [16:45] So, but you have to consider all the different factors. [16:49] So one was that factor, and the other factor that was the one I mentioned. [16:52] So when Republicans and conservatives say, [16:55] well, high taxes by definition will lead to slower growth, [16:58] well, we know because of our experience in the 1950s and 60s that isn't true. [17:02] Now, you can say there are other factors, [17:04] but you can't say that the highest marginal tax rate being 70 or even 90% slows down growth [17:09] because it didn't, and it wasn't in Japan and Switzerland. [17:13] It was right here. [17:15] And so, and by the way, as a guy who grew up Republican, I was surprised by that, too. [17:20] I was surprised that Finland's system of non-competition in schools work, but it does. [17:25] So we have to be open to facts and understand. [17:28] And on the issue of where we're good and not good in health care, [17:31] sure, there are different areas where we excel. [17:34] But, Ben, honestly, you're cherry-picking there one particular area that we're good. [17:38] Overall, we're number 37. [17:41] That is not a good result. [17:43] Well, you have to break down what that means. [17:44] So we're not dying from cancer. [17:45] We're dying from other things. [17:46] It's empirical. [17:48] We are not as healthy. [17:50] Finally, and finally, this idea that corporations are paying the highest tax rate [17:59] is both, again, true and untrue. [18:01] The part that it's true is, hey, there's a rate of 35%. [18:05] The part that's not true is they don't actually pay that. [18:08] There is giant loopholes. [18:11] And they've got $2 trillion sitting offshore, and they won't bring it in. [18:16] And the reality is that if you look at the taxes from the 1950s, [18:22] corporations used to pay about a third of our taxes, about 33% of the taxes overall. [18:27] So they did their fair share, and that is fair. [18:29] I don't want them paying all of it, but I want them paying a reasonable amount. [18:34] Now, the share that corporations pay of taxes is down to 10%. [18:38] You see what they did there? [18:40] They did wealth redistribution. [18:42] They took your wealth and redistributed it to them. [18:44] But then I'll let you respond to that. [18:51] One more quick point, and then I'll be done with this, [18:53] because we can do health care for eight hours here. [18:56] But two things. [18:57] One, I'd like to know which tax deduction – when people say tax loopholes, [19:00] a tax loopholes is just a tax deduction that's available to everyone, [19:02] and some people take advantage of it and some people don't. [19:04] I can't take advantage of certain corporate tax deductions [19:06] because my business isn't in those businesses, for example. [19:09] I'm sort of with you in the sense that I'm not in favor of tax deductions. [19:13] I'm in favor of a lower tax rate and get rid of a lot of the tax deductions [19:15] because I think that it's ridiculous that we have people gaming the system. [19:18] That said, I'd like to know which tax deductions you'd like to do away with, [19:22] and I'd like to know also when you say that corporations pay 10% of the taxes, [19:26] right, and individuals pay the other 90%, [19:28] okay, so that means the taxes are still getting paid [19:30] to a higher rate than we ever have in our history [19:32] in terms of the tax revenue of the government. [19:34] The amount of tax revenue of the government right now [19:36] is trillions of dollars every year. [19:38] And final point here. [19:40] You elided this question by saying we can learn stuff from Japan. [19:42] The standard of care is the entire question when it comes to single-payer health care. [19:47] That is the entire thing. [19:49] If people felt like they were going to get the same access to care [19:51] in a single-payer health care system [19:53] as they did in a system where they can pay their own way, [19:57] then we would have no controversy here. [19:59] But the fact is that rationing is mandated [20:02] as soon as you start having the government run the health care system [20:05] and decide what level of care people get. [20:06] So I don't want anyone deciding what level of care that I can get. [20:09] I don't want anyone else to say, they don't care about me. [20:11] They don't know my child's name. [20:12] They don't know my name. [20:13] All they know is how much I cost. [20:16] I mean, Ezekiel Emanuel is at least honest about this. [20:18] Ezekiel Emanuel comes out and says, [20:19] listen, I want to die at 70, right? [20:20] I want to die at 80. [20:21] That's fine with me. [20:22] I'd rather die that, well, that's good for him. [20:24] But if I don't want to die at 80, [20:25] or I don't want my father to die at 80, [20:26] it's none of his damn business. [20:34] So when you say tax revenue is at its highest point, [20:41] now you know that that's misleading [20:42] because everything economically is at its highest point, [20:45] meaning that we have a lot more people [20:48] in the country than we did in the 1950s and 60s, [20:50] so hence we are collecting more overall taxes. [20:53] But the reality is, as a percentage, [20:56] it is clearly down. [20:58] The top bracket now is around 39%. [21:01] It used to be at 91%. [21:02] That's inarguable, right? [21:04] But our economy is significantly larger than it was then, [21:06] and part of that is because of reductions in taxes [21:08] over previous decades. [21:09] Well, we tried supply-side economics. [21:18] Hey, Kansas, how's that working out for you? [21:19] So there's this myth that... [21:24] It's working out for you. [21:24] Your business is doing great. [21:25] Okay, yeah. [21:27] Well, we just had eight years of Obama. [21:31] So the tax rate is clearly lower [21:36] for the richest people in the country. [21:38] It is clearly lower for corporations, in effect. [21:41] And so to say that it's a record collection is misleading. [21:45] So in terms of the health care [21:48] and how that relates to the government... [21:50] Oh, by the way, one more thing on taxes. [21:52] You said, name me a tax loophole. [21:54] So, yes, there are plenty of those. [21:56] For example, they hide their money offshore. [21:59] They do tricks like the double Dutch [22:01] and the Irish sandwich or the reverse. [22:03] And I would end that. [22:06] I would say, hey, you know what? [22:07] We've got a 35% rate. [22:08] Here's the new rule. [22:09] You're going to pay 35%, okay? [22:12] And you're not allowed to hide your money. [22:13] I don't care if it's in the Cayman Islands. [22:15] We're going to make that illegal, Mitt Romney. [22:18] We're going to make it illegal, okay? [22:21] And so then every once in a while, [22:23] they do a tax holiday. [22:25] Well, that must be nice. [22:25] You remember when you got a tax holiday? [22:27] I don't remember getting a tax holiday. [22:29] No, that's only for corporations who bribe politicians. [22:33] So they brought that rate down from 35% to 5%. [22:37] And they said they were going to create more jobs. [22:40] Color me surprised when it turns out they didn't. [22:43] They offshore taxes. [22:44] They took that 30% extra, put it in their pocket, [22:47] gave it to their executives, and created no new jobs. [22:51] Because that's how it works if you just trust corporations [22:54] to do the right thing. [22:55] Corporations are not evil. [22:57] They just want to maximize profit. [22:59] That is what they're built for. [23:01] So please don't be naive and be like, [23:03] no, but the corporations will look out for our interests. [23:06] No, they look out for their bottom line. [23:09] And finally, just last quick thing, Medicare Advantage. [23:12] You keep saying rationing health care. [23:14] But Medicare gives you the bare minimum, [23:16] and people seem to be very, very happy about it [23:18] given how well it pulls. [23:20] But you can do Medicare Advantage and get more. [23:22] I want you to be able to do that. [23:24] If you're incredibly rich and you want every kind of treatment, [23:26] I don't want to deny that to you. [23:27] Get Medicare Advantage. [23:28] So Ben, let me just ask, and you can respond to that too. [23:31] The problem is when you pay a higher tax rate [23:33] throughout the course of your life [23:34] to pay for all of the Medicare that you are talking about, [23:36] you don't have enough money to pay for Medicare Advantage [23:38] in many cases. [23:39] And as far as this idea that corporations, [23:42] they don't have any of your interests at heart, [23:44] you are a corporation. [23:45] TYT is a corporation. [23:46] You have 80 employees. [23:48] I assume that you're not just a greedy asshole, [23:50] and that you actually would like to help your employees [23:52] from time to time. [23:53] And you just talked about how under Obama, [23:55] everything got better with your business. [23:57] Well, under Obama, he didn't radically escalate taxes. [24:00] Okay, there was not a radical escalation of taxes [24:02] under President Obama. [24:03] And finally, you seem to be identifying [24:06] a higher tax rate in the 1950s with higher level of growth. [24:08] So if that's the case, [24:09] why not just tax everybody at 100% [24:11] and we can have massive growth from here to eternity? [24:15] Because... [24:15] Let me just ask, since we're talking about taxes, [24:18] do you think we'll see tax reform in the next few months here? [24:21] Okay, so let me try to address all that [24:23] in your question as well. [24:24] So just real quick, look guys, [24:26] I said it however many questions ago, [24:28] of course you have to find the right balance [24:31] on all of these issues, including taxes. [24:33] So I never said there's no end to how much you can... [24:35] I'm just asking why, though. [24:37] Yeah, so this leads to... [24:40] No, wait a minute. [24:41] This leads to big government versus small government. [24:44] You're asking me what the ideal tax rate is, [24:46] and then you did a straw man there for a second [24:48] and said it should be 100%. [24:49] I never said that. [24:50] In fact, I said... [24:51] No, you said the economy... [24:53] Let me understand what you said. [24:55] You said the economy grew faster [24:56] when the top marginal tax rate was 91%, [24:58] so I'm asking you why shouldn't the top tax rate [25:01] or all tax rates be 91%? [25:02] You seem to be identifying a higher rate of growth [25:05] with higher taxation. [25:06] So I'm asking you, on principle, [25:08] you keep talking about the glories of a mixed economy. [25:10] So now tell me about the glories of capital... [25:11] I've heard about the glories of high tax rates. [25:13] I've heard about the glories of government-provided health care. [25:15] Now tell me some of the glories of actual capitalism, [25:18] which is the basis for all the things you're talking about. [25:19] Tell me why it's good. [25:20] Right. [25:21] So now, look, when you... [25:25] I used the example of the 91% and the 70% [25:28] to give you a sense of that I was surprised [25:30] and you'd be surprised to find out [25:32] that our economy was booming in those times. [25:34] That's not to say that that is the right tax rate for us today. [25:36] And so the exercise of finding the right tax rate is... [25:39] Guys, try to follow along, okay? [25:44] It's called logic. [25:54] So it would be preposterous to set the tax rate at zero. [25:58] It would be preposterous to set it at 100%. [26:01] So what we have to do as a society is figure out [26:04] where we can maximize the most amount of good for the country. [26:09] It could be closer to zero, closer to 100. [26:10] But not too much away from us. [26:13] So, for example, the reason why when taxes are higher, [26:16] it winds up being better for the economy [26:18] is because it recirculates the money. [26:22] So if you give it to the rich... [26:24] This is hilarious. [26:26] If you're uneducated, please at least don't... [26:30] Don't make it obvious. [26:33] It's the most interesting conversation on taxes I've heard. [26:39] So if you don't know the concept of recirculation of money, [26:43] then go look it up. [26:46] And so the way that it works [26:47] is that when the middle class... [26:49] When the middle class has more money, disposable income, [26:53] they spend it. [26:54] Why? [26:55] Because they're not living in the lap of luxury. [26:57] They're not saving it for their yacht. [26:58] So they need to buy food for their family. [27:01] They need education for their family. [27:02] So they spend it, and it goes back into the economy. [27:05] If you just give it in supply-side economics to the rich [27:08] and hope that it trickles down on us eventually decades later, [27:11] what they wind up doing with it is something that is logical. [27:14] They save it. [27:16] But that means it does not recirculate in the economy. [27:19] And that is why when you have lower taxes, [27:23] ironically, the economy does worse. [27:25] But of course it's a balancing act. [27:27] Okay, so now you're making a strong case for Keynesian economics, [27:30] which is totally fine, obviously. [27:32] The problem with Keynesian economics [27:34] is that it doesn't even work in theory. [27:35] Because again, once you go to the logical extreme, [27:37] which is remove all of the money from the rich people [27:39] who are saving all their money [27:40] and give it to all the poor people to buy hamburgers, [27:42] that doesn't help the economy or spur the economy. [27:44] What spurs the economy is a higher level... [27:47] What spurs the economy is the creation of new products and services, [27:55] and that is only going to be done by people who have expendable capital [27:59] to actually invest in the new products and services that we all enjoy. [28:02] This is what creates economic growth. [28:05] It's also worth noting that this myth [28:08] that spending is inherently better for an economy than saving, [28:11] that's only true if you're talking about somebody [28:12] who's actually taking the cash and just shoving it into their mattress. [28:15] Banks are in the business of lending. [28:17] When they take the money in, [28:18] they don't just stick it in Al Gore's fake lockbox. [28:20] They actually lend the money back out to people [28:23] to actually create new businesses and new products. [28:25] You had an investor, right? [28:27] When you started TYT, [28:28] you were given $4 million by Buddy Romer to start TYT. [28:31] That's great. [28:31] That's the way business should work, right? [28:33] But that money didn't come from a bunch of poor people buying hamburgers. [28:35] It came from a very, very wealthy guy [28:37] who gave you money to create a business a lot of people want to patronize. [28:40] If you want better products and better services, [28:42] you need more investment in the products and services. [28:45] The basic name, trickle-down economics, [28:47] the basic name, trickle-down economics, [28:55] is not something that any conservative even proposed. [28:57] It's a leftist revision of what economics actually is [29:00] because you're not giving me the money. [29:02] It was my money in the first place, [29:03] created through voluntary transactions that I had with others. [29:06] I've not stolen money from anyone, neither have you. [29:09] And the idea that money has to be forcibly taken from you [29:12] and handed to somebody at the bottom end of the economic spectrum [29:14] to somehow jog the economy, [29:16] that may jog McDonald's, [29:17] but is not going to jog all of the creation of the products and services [29:20] that make all of our lives much better today [29:21] than they were 30 years ago [29:23] in terms of the stuff we have access to. [29:24] Cenk, I'll let you respond to that briefly, [29:29] and then we'll switch topics. [29:30] Yeah. [29:31] So I'll try to answer that as briefly as I can, [29:33] and I'll go on to your questions. [29:34] So when you talk about, [29:37] hey, the banks are, [29:38] they're not going to just keep the money, [29:39] they're going to put it out and lend it to people, [29:42] unless they decided to do their own investments, [29:44] which is what they did because we repealed Glass-Steagall. [29:47] So it's not as simple as, [29:49] oh, I have money, [29:50] so then I will now utilize it or I'll lend it out. [29:53] So that is way oversimplistic. [29:55] Speaking of oversimplistic, [29:57] to say that, [29:58] oh, well, they'll go buy hamburgers with it, [30:01] come on. [30:01] You were going to have food. [30:02] So the middle class is struggling right now, [30:05] and we've turned this into a Walmart economy [30:07] where people are getting $7.25, [30:09] and that, [30:10] if you're getting around $10, [30:11] I think that's about $15,000 a year. [30:14] So don't, [30:15] like, [30:15] that is serious pain and difficulties. [30:17] So if you give those people money, [30:19] it's not like, [30:19] ah, [30:19] I just wanted to go get a hamburger. [30:21] No, they desperately need that money, [30:23] and they, [30:24] yes, [30:24] they will spend it all back into the economy. [30:27] So that's an economic fact. [30:29] And so, [30:32] and, [30:32] and Ben, [30:32] for the 88th time, [30:34] we have to find a balance [30:36] where you have provided an incentive [30:37] for people to save and invest, [30:39] and you have provided an incentive for people [30:41] to be able to put money back into the economy [30:44] and to be able to live. [30:46] And it's not, [30:47] and taxes is not stealing from you. [30:48] So you're right, [30:49] I want a business. [30:49] So in order for people, [30:51] my employees to get to my company, [30:53] you know what they have to do? [30:53] They have to drive on roads. [30:56] Okay, [30:56] so it's not stealing from me [30:58] to build that road. [31:00] That helps my business. [31:02] They had to go to school. [31:04] The, [31:04] the fact that they went to public schools [31:06] allows them to work for me. [31:07] All these things are things that I benefit from. [31:10] I didn't build that company by myself. [31:12] Every single person that works there [31:13] helped me to build that company. [31:15] And that's what it means to work together. [31:21] So, [31:22] and so, [31:23] to answer Steve's question finally, [31:26] look, [31:26] you know, [31:27] what, [31:27] what is this Congress going to do on, [31:29] on tax reform? [31:31] And Ben and I disagree on this too, [31:32] because we, [31:33] we just talked about it a second ago. [31:35] Um, [31:35] and this is just political prognostication, [31:37] but I, [31:38] I, [31:38] I think that the Republicans will definitely pass tax reform. [31:42] And I, [31:42] and the reason I say that [31:44] is because the Republican Party at this point [31:47] is completely dependent on their donors. [31:50] And by the way, [31:50] don't get me wrong, [31:51] the Democratic Party is also largely dependent on their donors. [31:54] I think the Republicans are a tiny bit more corrupt. [31:57] But, [31:57] uh, [31:58] so, [31:58] I think that, [32:00] I think, [32:01] I think that, [32:02] uh, [32:03] their donors [32:04] are going to demand those tax cuts. [32:06] And if I am right, [32:08] and we'll all see this, [32:09] you know, [32:09] because it's something that's going to happen later, [32:11] not something that has happened, [32:12] they will do everything. [32:14] They will move mountains [32:15] to make sure that those rich donors and corporations [32:18] will get their tax cuts. [32:20] Okay. [32:21] So this is, [32:22] this is an interesting case where, [32:24] uh, [32:24] I say to Cenk's prognostication [32:26] from his mouth to God's ears, [32:27] and he says about mine [32:28] from my mouth to God's ears, [32:29] because I don't think they're going to pass anything, [32:30] uh, [32:31] because I think that there's a high level of incompetence [32:33] inside the Republican caucus, [32:34] and it's pretty fractious. [32:35] Um, [32:35] but, [32:36] uh, [32:36] I, [32:36] I do want to go back to a couple of points, [32:38] because you actually had some major thematic points. [32:40] You talked about roads, [32:41] and the fact that we need roads [32:42] in order to get to work. [32:43] This is a point Elizabeth Warren made, [32:44] and obviously a point that President Obama made at the time. [32:46] I don't think anyone argues [32:47] that we don't need roads to get to work. [32:49] The problem is that when you're talking about roads [32:50] as a percentage of the budget, [32:51] we are talking about a tiny, tiny, tiny percentage [32:54] of the federal budget, [32:55] and of the state budget, [32:56] and even of the local budget. [32:57] So the idea that you're justifying massive tax rates [33:00] on corporations in order to pay for roads [33:01] is just intellectually dishonest. [33:03] It's a tiny, [33:03] the stuff that we agree on, [33:05] that government should spend on, [33:06] is a tiny percentage of spending, right? [33:08] It's all the other stuff that we disagree on. [33:10] As far as the idea that I'm somehow being, [33:12] you know, dismissive toward people who are buying hamburgers, [33:15] I'm not. [33:16] I'm saying the people who are poor need to buy hamburgers [33:18] to feed their children. [33:19] They don't have the money to invest in building an iPhone, [33:21] because when you're just trying to get by, [33:22] and you are living in a Walmart subsistence economy, [33:24] you're using that money to buy the products and services [33:27] you need to get by. [33:28] That does not create new products and services [33:30] that become cheaper over time through competition. [33:32] You need somebody to make those investments. [33:34] You said this about Glass-Steagall, for example. [33:36] He said the banks, they might make their own investments. [33:38] In what? [33:39] In what? [33:39] They're not investing in themselves. [33:41] I mean, they have to take that money, [33:42] and then they have to use it to invest in something else. [33:44] Places like Apple. [33:45] Places, some that fail and some that succeed. [33:47] This idea that banks are somehow evils [33:49] is just not the case, [33:51] unless you are talking about them working in Congress. [33:53] Here, you and I agree. [33:54] Working in congruity with a Congress, [33:57] with a legislature that is attempting to give them kickbacks. [34:00] Both you and I agree on this. [34:01] So, and finally, as far as the idea [34:03] that Republicans pass tax cuts [34:05] because they're beholden to their donors, [34:06] okay, and Democrats pass tax increases [34:08] because the unions give them [34:09] hundreds of millions of dollars every year. [34:10] And I don't see Democrats complain about this. [34:15] Um, so, you got me there. [34:20] The unions give money to the Democrats. [34:22] Um, so, am I... [34:25] Are you angry about that? [34:26] I mean, does it upset you as much as, you know, [34:27] bankers giving money to Republicans? [34:29] No, no. [34:29] Corporations give way more than the unions. [34:32] Um, so... [34:34] It depends which corporations. [34:35] That's not really true. [34:35] That's okay. Look it up. [34:36] You can Google it. [34:37] It's really easy. [34:38] Um, so, do I object to taking out union money from politics? [34:44] Hell no, I don't object. [34:46] Take it all out. [34:47] Take the union money out. [34:49] Take the corporate money out. [34:51] Take all the big money out. [34:52] They're supposed to represent us [34:54] and not the donors, [34:56] no matter who the donors are. [35:00] So, in terms of the question that you asked, [35:03] Glass-Steagall, well, aren't they investing in things? [35:05] No. [35:05] Uh, I have a literal answer for you. [35:07] So, oftentimes, what they do is financial derivatives. [35:09] In fact, that's the majority of what they do. [35:11] And financial derivatives is simply gambling. [35:14] That's what crashed the 2008 economy. [35:17] And... [35:17] And what is so damaging about the removal of Glass-Steagall is, [35:23] now they could do their financial derivative gambling [35:25] with depositor money. [35:27] Boy, isn't that nice. [35:28] They take your money and they gamble with it. [35:31] And if they lose, well, that's a sad day for you. [35:34] But if they win, they keep the profits. [35:36] You know what that is? [35:37] That's privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. [35:41] So, it's not... [35:43] It's not that banks are evil. [35:46] Of course they're not evil. [35:48] It's just that they're driven to make more money. [35:50] Of course. [35:51] That is the whole point of maximizing profit. [35:54] So, if we say, hey, banks, you're allowed to go and buy politicians. [35:59] Although the Supreme Court would say, no, they're just talking to them. [36:02] They just gave them billions of dollars. [36:04] They're just having a conversation, right? [36:06] Just because they gave them billions of dollars, they don't... [36:08] Do they want something in return? [36:09] Of course they want something in return. [36:12] And that's our money. [36:15] So, what they got was laws passed by politicians [36:20] to remove Glass-Steagall, and yes, Clinton and Gingrich, [36:25] yes, both parties are guilty on that, [36:27] but now the Democrats want to put it back on the Republican stone. [36:29] And they took our depositor money, and they gambled with it. [36:33] And if you thought... [36:35] If you gambled, you get to keep all the profits, [36:37] and if you lost, it didn't affect you at all, [36:40] you would probably gamble a lot of money, too. [36:41] And you would take a lot of risk until you crash the economy, [36:45] and that's exactly what happened. [36:46] Okay, so... [36:47] Ben, let me just add one piece to this question. [36:49] You'll respond to it, too. [36:51] You've talked a lot about the corruption in politics, [36:53] and a core part of the Trump campaign [36:57] was railing against the establishment, [37:00] which he thought was corrupted, [37:01] and a lot of the big donors were initially against him. [37:03] So, which way is the Republican Party going to go on this? [37:06] Is it Trumpism and the grassroots movement, [37:09] or the establishment? [37:10] Well, I mean, when it comes to money in politics, [37:13] I think that that breakdown doesn't really hold. [37:15] I mean, the fact is that President Trump, [37:17] during the campaign, talked routinely about [37:18] how he engaged in putting money into politics. [37:20] So, I mean, this is a game that a lot of people are playing. [37:22] It's kind of a weird question. [37:23] But as far as the idea that all money should be out of politics, [37:26] here is the problem. [37:28] Okay, TYT, I, we both have corporations, [37:30] and we expound upon politics every single day. [37:33] And we motivate thousands of people, right, [37:35] every day on both sides of the aisle. [37:37] That is effectively an in-kind contribution. [37:39] Now, you campaigned with Bernie Sanders. [37:42] Did you do it because you expected... [37:43] That's fine. [37:44] Did you expect... [37:45] Did you do that because you supported Bernie Sanders, [37:47] or did you do that because you expected some gimme for TYT in return? [37:51] I assume you did it because you supported Bernie Sanders, right? [37:53] Yes. [37:53] So, okay. [37:54] So, the point that I am making is to attribute to everyone else [37:57] bad intent when it comes to political spending in politics, [37:59] but to yourself, it's totally fine. [38:01] And when it comes to other media entities [38:03] that give in-kind contributions on a regular basis [38:05] through their coverage, [38:07] this is when the New York Times, [38:09] when the New York Times, which is biased to the left, [38:11] spends an inordinate amount of time and money [38:13] reporting on Mitt Romney's idiotic stories [38:17] about how he was in high school [38:18] and cutting a gay kid's hair in 1932. [38:21] If you're saying to me that that is less impactful [38:23] on the political sphere than a corporation, [38:26] which is a group giving money to a political candidate [38:29] for purposes of supporting that candidate, [38:31] I fail to see how you can say for yourself [38:33] that you are innocent in this, but everyone else is guilty. [38:37] I don't believe that. [38:37] Either everyone's guilty or everybody is innocent, [38:39] or if you can find the actual cases of guilt [38:40] where there's a quid pro quo, then we agree. [38:42] That's prosecutable, right? [38:43] So, other point. [38:45] When you talked about the 2008 economy, [38:47] you talked about Glass-Steagall and how this led to the crash, [38:49] the real reason that the crash happened [38:50] had far less to do with Glass-Steagall. [38:52] I oppose the bailouts, by the way. [38:54] It had far less to do with Glass-Steagall [38:55] than it had to do with the fact that the federal government [38:57] was actively promulgating the notion [38:59] that corporations should give subprime mortgages [39:01] to people who are not qualified as people who could take out loans. [39:07] This meant that, as you say, [39:10] corporations are not inherently conservative, [39:12] they're not inherently free market, [39:13] they're inherently profit-driven. [39:15] So, if they felt that they could give a bunch of subprime mortgages [39:17] and this would inflate the real estate prices [39:19] and if things went wrong, they just foreclose on the nearest house [39:21] and the market just keeps going up and up and up [39:23] and they can just, as you say, turn these into derivatives [39:25] and sell them on the open market [39:27] by pretending that these are all good loans [39:29] because they have government backing, [39:31] then of course you're going to get an inflated, [39:32] overheated real estate market. [39:33] But the question there is not the workings of the free market, [39:36] it's the combination that you like in a mixed economy, [39:39] that I hate. [39:40] I hate mixed economies in the sense that [39:42] I don't believe that capitalism and socialism should be mixed, [39:45] that corporatism is the solution. [39:47] What you're talking about is corporatism. [39:49] You're talking about Glass-Steagall, [39:51] which freed, they're getting rid of Glass-Steagall, [39:54] it freed the corporations to invest in a free market manner, [39:56] but also they gave a bailout to all of these corporations [40:00] by essentially incentivizing them to give a bunch of bad loans [40:03] knowing that if things went bad, [40:04] then all the losses would be socialized. [40:06] The problem there is not the free market, [40:08] the problem there is a government that is acting as a backstop [40:10] for bad decisions in the free market by profit-driven corporations. [40:18] Okay. [40:20] All right, I love that. [40:21] There was a lot to respond to there, [40:22] so let me try to take it one at a time. [40:24] So first off, I love the idea that the government made the banks [40:28] through the subprime mortgages, [40:29] and, golly gee, the government twists the banks are [40:32] when they make billions upon billions of dollars. [40:35] Oh, man, oh, don't make me make another billion. [40:37] Don't make me make another billion. [40:39] No, they did those. [40:40] If they thought they were going to lose money off of it, [40:43] they would have a fiduciary responsibility not to do it. [40:45] I agree. [40:45] Okay, it was, they were not forced to make billions of dollars. [40:49] They were not forced to then have us bail them out. [40:51] They did all of that because there's legalized bribery in America. [40:54] Right, because the government was giving them money. [40:56] Correct. [40:57] So now let me address that. [40:59] You say, well, what's the difference between your speech [41:02] and their speech? [41:03] Mine is actually speech, and theirs is money. [41:05] So there's a giant difference. [41:07] You spend money on your speech. [41:08] So first off, so they say, no, no, [41:11] Supreme Court says, no, money is speech now. [41:14] No, money is property. [41:15] It's not speech. [41:17] And so if money was speech, well, then, [41:20] if you go to a hooker and you say, [41:22] oh, no, officer, I was just talking to her, okay? [41:26] Money is not speech. [41:28] So, for example, to give you a sense of it, [41:31] to compare me saying I like Bernie Sanders [41:33] and you saying whoever you like is the equivalent of this [41:36] is obviously nonsensical. [41:37] I believe it's obvious. [41:38] So, in a five-year, recent five-year period, [41:41] the top 200 corporate givers, they both, [41:45] in donations and in lobbying, spent $5.8 billion, okay? [41:51] So that is not the same thing as me saying, hey, [41:53] I like what Bernie is saying about college and Medicare. [41:56] And when they did, why do you think they did? [41:58] It was not because, hey, they genuinely like Bernie [42:01] or Trump or Hillary. [42:02] Because in return for that $5.8 billion, [42:05] they got $4.4 trillion in government subsidies. [42:11] So, which leads to, I actually think, [42:17] the biggest point here, [42:18] the difference between big government and small government. [42:20] So, a lot of times conservatives say, [42:22] oh, you guys like big government. [42:24] That's not true. [42:25] So, let me explain. [42:27] If I asked you, hey, you got a plumbing job, [42:30] what would you like, big pipes or small pipes? [42:33] I don't know, what's the job we have? [42:36] It depends. [42:37] It's the same thing with the government. [42:39] Okay, what size government would you like? [42:41] I don't know, what's the job we have? [42:44] So, to say big government or small government [42:46] doesn't make any sense. [42:48] So, for example, do I want a big government [42:51] that invades Iraq? [42:52] Hell no, I don't. [42:54] No way. [42:56] And Ben, you were vociferously for the Iraq War, [43:00] so in that sense, you loved the big government. [43:04] Couldn't get enough of it. [43:05] You could go on and on and on. [43:11] Republicans say, no, no, no, we don't like big government, [43:13] but we'd like to be inside your uterus. [43:26] Just admit it. [43:27] It's no problem. [43:29] Just say it. [43:30] Say, I love big government. [43:31] It's okay. [43:32] So, you're talking about when you like tax, [43:35] when you're rich and you want tax cuts, [43:37] oh, no, I don't want big government, [43:38] I want small government. [43:39] But when it's convenient for you [43:40] and you'd like oil subsidies [43:42] and you'd like wars [43:43] and you'd like to meddle in people's private lives, [43:45] then you love big government. [43:50] I guess so. [43:51] I need to respond to some of that. [43:52] Okay, yeah, definitely. [43:53] Okay, so first of all, [43:55] I'd like to point out [43:56] that Cenk's big government, [43:57] small government dichotomy [43:58] was proposed by you, not by me. [44:00] I talk about the proper scope [44:01] of the government's involvement [44:02] in particular areas the same way that you do, [44:04] and we may disagree on all of that. [44:06] My point is that overall, [44:07] if you're talking about the level [44:08] of government spending, [44:09] it needs to go down [44:10] and you believe that it really needs to go up. [44:12] Okay, so it's disingenuous. [44:13] It depends. [44:13] Not on war, does it? [44:15] No, but overall... [44:15] Not on the war on drugs. [44:17] Not on so many of those wasteful programs. [44:19] It depends, but let me... [44:20] Overall, you want the federal budget increased. [44:23] Overall, I would like the federal budget decreased. [44:25] To pretend that this is not true is to lie. [44:28] Okay, and when you suggest [44:29] that there is no difference between, [44:31] you know, we just have different visions [44:33] of what the government should cover, [44:34] these things cost different things. [44:36] Okay, the war in Iraq was very expensive. [44:37] You know what's more expensive? [44:38] Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. [44:39] All of these are vastly more expensive [44:41] than the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. [44:42] We paid into it. [44:44] Now, as far as this... [44:46] Again, going back to this idea... [44:47] Going back to this idea that, again, [44:49] I don't like this big government dichotomy [44:50] any more than you do [44:51] in the sense that you say, [44:52] well, it's big government [44:53] for the government to get inside people's wombs. [44:55] And I say that it is the government's job [44:57] to preserve life, liberty, and property, [44:59] and one of those things is life. [45:00] To protect you... [45:07] To protect you from someone else taking it. [45:11] Okay? [45:11] To protect you from someone else taking it. [45:13] Now, when it comes to the idea [45:15] that all money in politics is bad, [45:17] again, I ask you... [45:18] Final question, you know, [45:19] final point on... [45:20] We're going through 10 points at a time here, [45:21] but final point here. [45:23] When you say money in politics is bad, [45:24] again, I ask you, [45:25] Buddy Romer gave you $4 million to start TYT. [45:28] What did he expect in return? [45:30] Should he not have given you money? [45:31] Was the money not speech? [45:32] It was just money, after all. [45:33] It was just like a hooker, I assume. [45:34] So, are you the prostitute? [45:35] How did this work? [45:35] When you take money from all Jazeera's, [45:47] does that make you a hooker for the Qatari? [45:48] How does that work? [45:49] That was an awesome conflation. [45:52] Okay? [45:52] We were talking about money in politics [45:54] and how money is not speech [45:56] when you give it as a campaign donation, [45:58] and you turn it around to a business investment. [46:00] You know, in a business investment, [46:02] it has nothing to do with speech. [46:03] Money is money. [46:04] They gave us an investment, [46:05] so... [46:06] because they believed in our business. [46:07] That has nothing to do with politics. [46:08] That's great. [46:09] And you think the government [46:10] is in the business of regulating business. [46:11] So, if the government is in the business [46:12] of regulating business, [46:13] what would be the problem [46:14] with the government telling Buddy Romer [46:15] he is not allowed to invest in your business? [46:18] No! [46:19] That has... [46:20] No, no, those are two different issues. [46:21] No problem. [46:22] No problem. [46:23] No, it's... [46:23] One thing is to say, [46:24] hey, let's set reasonable limitations [46:27] on what can happen around elections, [46:28] which is, again, [46:29] what most developed Western countries do. [46:32] So... [46:32] And they have different versions of that rule. [46:34] There's ads you can run... [46:35] You can't run ads within a certain period of time. [46:38] You have public financing [46:38] versus private financing. [46:40] Those are rules around an election. [46:41] That is a completely different issue [46:43] than the government saying randomly [46:44] you can and you can't invest in businesses. [46:47] So, you're conflating those two issues [46:49] that have nothing to do with one another. [46:51] Why? [46:52] So, let's just... [46:54] Wait, what does why mean? [46:56] Because it's a... [46:56] Because... [46:57] Hey, you know, you believe in education, [46:59] so why don't you believe in health care? [47:00] Because it's a free country, [47:02] and I get to spend my money [47:03] wherever I damn well please. [47:06] So, as we're coming to the close here, [47:10] we're going to do one more... [47:11] I've got to ask them, I've got to ask them. [47:13] All right, very quick, very quick. [47:14] So, you damn well please. [47:15] Okay, so when the Koch brothers [47:17] or Bloomberg or Soros [47:20] puts in hundreds of millions of dollars [47:23] into elections, [47:24] you think, [47:25] well, I'm just doing them [47:25] because they're good guys, [47:27] and they just... [47:28] They damn well please [47:29] buying all those politicians. [47:30] Or you think, [47:31] no, the politicians [47:32] would never be affected [47:34] by hundreds of millions of dollars [47:35] in legalized bribes. [47:36] And you can't just spend your money [47:39] anywhere you want. [47:40] Of course there are rules. [47:41] You can't bribe people. [47:43] There's many things you can't do [47:44] with your money. [47:45] And one of those [47:46] should be bribing politicians, [47:47] but we made it legal. [47:49] So I'm curious what your opinion on that is. [47:51] Do you think that they're just golly chucks? [47:53] They just mean well? [47:54] Cenk, you're a lawyer, [47:55] so you know that bribery requires [47:57] two parties to the bribe. [47:58] If I give money to a politician, [47:59] there must be something in return. [48:01] If there is no quid pro quo, [48:02] there is no bribe. [48:03] You think there's nothing in return? [48:04] You think the politicians [48:05] don't do those favors? [48:07] No, I think very often [48:07] there is something in return. [48:08] But I want you to point me [48:09] to the things that are in return, [48:10] not just say that all spending [48:12] on politics ought to be forbidden [48:13] except for the Young Turks. [48:14] No, that's of course not what we say. [48:17] If you want to get money [48:20] out of politics and then you said [48:21] the Young Turks cannot donate money [48:23] to politicians, I'd say, [48:24] of course, that's the whole point [48:26] of getting money out of politics. [48:27] Wait, so it's just Cenk. [48:28] So this idea that you, [48:30] well, hey, what? [48:31] Come on. [48:31] It's so disingenuous. [48:33] Even if you're a Republican [48:35] and you're a conservative, [48:36] you think there isn't crony capitalism? [48:39] You think that that $4.4 trillion [48:41] that went as subsidies [48:43] isn't because they got campaign donations? [48:46] You know it's because [48:47] they got campaign donations. [48:49] Cenk, okay, final question. [48:50] This is going to be [48:50] the last word on this. [48:51] Final thing here on this, okay? [48:52] Final question on this. [48:54] So Young Turks is super successful. [48:56] You have 80 million uniques. [48:57] It's wonderful. [48:58] Do you think Bernie Sanders [48:59] would care more [49:00] if you gave him $10,000 [49:01] or if you dedicated [49:01] your entire network [49:02] to kissing his ass [49:03] for an election cycle? [49:04] So two things about this. [49:20] First of all, [49:20] I think you and I will agree. [49:22] I think you and I will agree [49:24] that what we did [49:26] in praising some of Bernie's programs, [49:28] a lot of Bernie's programs, [49:29] but not all. [49:30] For example, [49:30] I disagree with him on guns [49:32] and I thought Hillary's education program [49:34] was slightly better than Bernie's. [49:36] And by the way, [49:37] I agree with Republicans [49:38] on the Export-Import Bank. [49:39] So it's not blind allegiance. [49:41] That is not what we do, [49:42] not remotely, okay? [49:43] Second of all, [49:44] I think you'll agree with me [49:46] that the mainstream media [49:48] kissing Hillary Clinton's ass [49:50] for two straight years [49:53] was a much bigger problem. [49:55] Would you outline? [49:56] Now, the distinction [49:56] that you're asking for, [49:59] the distinction that you're asking for, [50:00] and now I've answered [50:01] I think four times is, [50:03] one is speech, [50:05] and by the way, [50:05] protected, [50:06] you said life, liberty, [50:07] and pursuit of happiness. [50:09] I think we all agree to that. [50:10] I got a big applause line. [50:11] I also agree. [50:12] And in our Constitution, [50:14] the First Amendment [50:14] is right to speech [50:15] and freedom of the press. [50:17] So that is that rubric. [50:19] Money is not in the First Amendment. [50:22] There is no right [50:22] to spend money on politicians. [50:24] Money is money, [50:25] speech is speech. [50:26] All right, so let's do rapid fire now [50:28] as we come to the close here. [50:29] I think, by the way, [50:31] there's wide agreement [50:31] about the corruption in politics, [50:33] maybe different ways [50:34] of how to deal with it, [50:35] but this has been [50:36] a very good conversation. [50:37] So I'll go first to Ben. [50:38] As we look at 2020, [50:40] what will be a winning message [50:41] and who will be a winning candidate [50:43] on the Republican side in 2020? [50:45] I think that the greatest ally [50:53] that the Republicans have [50:54] is the incompetence [50:55] and stupidity [50:56] of the Democratic Party. [50:57] The 2016... [51:00] In fact, I have a feeling [51:01] that Cenk actually might agree [51:02] with me on this, [51:03] that 2016 election, [51:05] Donald Trump became [51:06] President of the United States. [51:08] Right? [51:08] Hillary Clinton was the worst candidate [51:10] in the history of mankind. [51:12] And that had... [51:14] So, you know, [51:17] the Republican message [51:18] I never thought [51:18] was a particularly losing message. [51:19] I just think that [51:20] what we have right now [51:21] is such a polarized politics [51:22] that it's going to be [51:23] very difficult [51:24] for anybody [51:25] to pass anything [51:26] in this climate. [51:27] I also think that [51:27] what... [51:28] We have almost [51:29] a reactionary feel [51:31] on both sides. [51:32] Like, what I like [51:32] about this debate [51:32] is that we're actually [51:33] talking about ideas, [51:34] which is actually pretty rare [51:34] in this sphere. [51:37] Well, what's become [51:38] more common [51:39] is that on the left [51:40] there's this retreat [51:41] to intersectionality [51:42] as an identity politics, [51:43] this idea that [51:44] if we can cobble together [51:44] a group of people [51:45] who are feeling victimized [51:47] by American society, [51:48] you know, [51:48] we have black people [51:48] and we have Hispanic people [51:49] and we have women [51:50] and we have gays [51:50] and lesbians [51:51] and transgenders, [51:51] and they all feel really bad [51:53] about how American politics [51:54] is going [51:54] and if we push that notion, [51:56] we can create a coalition [51:57] that will be a brand new coalition [51:58] never before seen [51:59] in American politics [52:00] and that requires [52:00] a woman to run [52:01] or that requires [52:02] a black woman to run [52:03] or that requires [52:03] a minority to run. [52:04] If they do that, [52:05] then what you're going to see [52:06] from, I think, [52:07] in an equally nasty way [52:08] from the right [52:09] is a response that says, [52:10] okay, well, [52:10] if you're going to do [52:11] identity politics, [52:12] you will see some white [52:13] identity politics [52:13] from the right, [52:14] which I think is really negative. [52:15] I don't want to see [52:16] either of those things. [52:17] What I would like to see [52:17] is the Democrats campaign [52:19] on the stronger involvement [52:22] of government [52:22] in your life [52:22] and higher taxes program [52:23] that Cenk wants them [52:24] to campaign on, [52:25] the Bernie Sanders-Elizabeth Warren program, [52:27] and I would like to see [52:28] the Republicans campaign [52:30] on my program, [52:31] a smaller government [52:32] libertarian program [52:33] that says the government [52:33] should get out of our lives [52:35] as much as humanly possible. [52:36] All right, [52:36] and for Cenk, [52:42] for Cenk, [52:43] what will be a winning message [52:45] and who will be a winning [52:46] candidate for Democrats [52:47] in 2020? [52:48] Yep. [52:49] So, I... [52:50] Wouldn't it be weird [52:54] if this ended up [52:54] being the stage? [52:55] That's what I told you guys [52:56] backstage. [52:57] It's a presidential debate. [52:59] Okay, so, [53:00] look, Ben, [53:01] you said earlier [53:01] that you didn't set up [53:02] the big government, [53:03] small government paradigm, [53:04] but you just said [53:04] you want them to run [53:05] on a small government [53:06] platform. [53:08] Yes. [53:08] Less involvement [53:08] in Americans' lives, yes. [53:09] So, again, small government [53:10] doesn't make any sense, [53:11] so let's break it down. [53:12] You asked me about [53:13] particular issues, [53:15] so I'll give you one. [53:16] So, you were in favor [53:17] of the Iraq War. [53:18] That cost us at least [53:19] one and a half trillion dollars. [53:20] Then people turn around [53:21] and say to Bernie Sanders, [53:23] well, I mean, [53:23] college for your kids, [53:26] your kids are middle class. [53:27] That's unaffordable. [53:28] That's way too much money. [53:30] You can't do that. [53:31] That costs 75 billion dollars [53:33] a year. [53:34] First of all, [53:34] college for your kids, [53:35] you know what that's called? [53:36] That's called [53:36] the American dream. [53:43] And for one Iraq War, [53:45] for the cost of one Iraq War, [53:47] we could have gotten 20 years [53:49] of free college, [53:50] for all those kids [53:52] and the American dream. [53:56] So, it isn't about [53:58] big government [53:58] or small government. [53:59] It's about [53:59] what do we do [54:00] with the money. [54:01] So that 1.5 trillion dollars [54:03] could have gone to us, [54:04] could have gone to the middle class, [54:05] could have gone to a better economy. [54:06] Because when you go to college, [54:08] you come out, [54:08] you start businesses, [54:10] you engage in this market, [54:12] and you make things better, [54:13] and you employ people. [54:14] We could have used that for us. [54:16] Instead, we wasted it in Iraq. [54:17] And, by the way, [54:19] I believe, Ben, [54:20] you want to get tough on Iran, [54:22] you want to, you know, [54:23] rip up the deal, etc. [54:24] If you thought the Iraq War [54:26] was a waste of blood and treasure, [54:27] wait till you get a load [54:28] of what happens in Iran. [54:30] So we're not going to make [54:31] that mistake again. [54:32] We're not going to make [54:33] that mistake again. [54:34] So, what would I, [54:35] look, this idea of the identity, [54:37] that Democrats are on [54:38] identity politics, [54:39] and some of them do. [54:40] But, let's not forget [54:42] that Republicans [54:42] do the same and worse. [54:45] Who was the one [54:45] who came up with [54:46] the Southern strategy? [54:48] That was the Republican Party. [54:51] And the Southern strategy was, [54:53] let's go get racist [54:55] white voters in the South. [54:57] That's a fact. [55:02] So, once again, [55:06] it's this wonderful [55:07] capitalist invention [55:07] called Google. [55:08] Google it. [55:10] So, two, [55:11] two Republican [55:13] chairmen have said, [55:15] yes, we did do that [55:17] strategy and we apologize. [55:20] So, that's a fact. [55:21] They're the ones [55:22] who invented [55:23] identity politics. [55:26] So, when you, [55:27] you like identity politics [55:28] when it serves your interests, [55:30] but all of a sudden [55:31] when we say, hey, [55:32] can black people [55:33] have the same rights [55:34] as white people? [55:34] Oh, identity politics. [55:36] Can gay people [55:37] have the same rights [55:38] as straight people? [55:38] Identity politics. [55:40] It's called equality. [55:43] Look into it. [55:45] It's called America. [55:47] Okay? [55:51] We now know. [55:52] USA! [55:53] USA! [55:54] USA! [55:55] Equality for all of us! [55:57] Okay. [55:58] I want to respond to it. [55:59] This is a point. [56:00] Very quickly. [56:01] I want to respond to a point. [56:04] This is a point that [56:04] Cenk made last year [56:05] in his debate with Dinesh [56:06] repeatedly for about an hour. [56:08] That was the Southern strategy [56:09] with regard to the Republicans. [56:11] Okay. [56:11] I'd like to point out [56:12] the idea that the entire [56:13] South solidly moved [56:15] into the Republican category [56:16] because of the Civil Rights Act [56:17] is historically false [56:18] and has been debunked [56:18] multiple times [56:19] by people ranging [56:20] from Sean Trent [56:20] at RealClearPolitics [56:21] to professors [56:22] at the University of Pennsylvania. [56:23] And there's a bunch [56:24] of ways to debunk it, [56:25] including the fact [56:25] that the Congress [56:26] did not switch Republican [56:27] in the South [56:28] until 1994. [56:29] Okay. [56:30] Did it take 30 years [56:31] for the racists [56:31] to realize what was going on? [56:33] 21 senators from the South [56:35] were Democrats. [56:36] How many of them [56:37] became Republicans [56:37] after the Civil Rights Act? [56:39] The answer? [56:40] One. [56:40] The other 20 stayed Democrats. [56:42] In 1952, [56:43] Eisenhower did not win [56:44] a ton of the South. [56:45] Eisenhower did win, however, [56:47] seven states in the South [56:48] in 1956 [56:49] after he sent federal troops [56:51] down South. [56:52] The reason that the Republican Party [56:54] started to win in the South, [56:55] it began in the 1950s, [56:56] not after the 1964 Civil Rights Act [56:59] and it was largely due [57:00] to the movement [57:00] of industry down South. [57:02] It was new, [57:03] fringe members [57:04] of the Republican Party, [57:05] younger members [57:06] of the Republican Party [57:06] who switched over [57:07] to the Republican Party [57:08] in the South, [57:09] not old Democrats [57:10] who remained old Democrats [57:11] and are still old Democrats today. [57:14] So I'm going to jump in here. [57:16] Okay. [57:16] I got to, real quick. [57:18] You're right. [57:18] Very quick. [57:19] By the way, [57:19] by the way, [57:19] final note, [57:20] Jimmy Carter launched [57:22] his 1980 campaign [57:23] at the headquarters, [57:25] that town in Alabama [57:26] that was the headquarters [57:26] for the KKK. [57:27] So to pretend [57:28] that it was only Republicans [57:29] playing the bad [57:30] and evil race strategy [57:31] is just a lie. [57:32] Okay. [57:33] Last word. [57:34] So that was him responding [57:38] to his own thing. [57:39] Okay. [57:39] So real quick, [57:41] because you're right, [57:41] we had a whole hour long, [57:42] almost an hour long debate [57:43] on the Southern strategy. [57:45] You always get, [57:45] you guys always pick, [57:46] cherry pick certain windows [57:47] of time. [57:48] In this very narrow window [57:49] of time, [57:50] I just went from 1992. [57:50] I just went from 1952 [57:52] to 1994. [57:53] Hold on, hold on. [57:54] If, if Ben, [57:55] if you're so right, [57:56] why did two heads [57:57] of the RNC [57:58] come out and say, [57:59] yes, we did [57:59] the Southern strategy [58:00] and we apologize? [58:02] Why did Pat Buchanan [58:03] say to me on MSNBC, [58:05] yes, we did [58:06] the Southern strategy, [58:07] yes, we got whites [58:08] to vote for us [58:09] in the South [58:09] and we had a good run? [58:11] Okay. [58:12] It wasn't me saying, [58:13] it was Republican leaders [58:14] and Buchanan [58:16] who did it [58:16] at the Nixon campaign [58:17] admitting that [58:18] that was exactly [58:19] the strategy. [58:20] And there were some [58:20] members of the [58:21] Republican Strategy Council [58:22] who were doing evil things. [58:23] That doesn't mean [58:23] all the people [58:24] who voted for the Republicans [58:25] were voting for them [58:26] because of those things. [58:27] And to impute that motive [58:28] to tens of millions [58:29] of people down South [58:30] is to ignore not only [58:31] every public opinion [58:32] full done, [58:32] but also to be able [58:33] to recognize history.