Frankly Speaking With Rahul Gandhi - Full Interview — Arnab Goswami Exclusive Interview

[0:08] Rahul thank you very much. It's great to have you on the frankly speaking show today. Thank you very much indeed. [0:13] It's been 10 years and as an MP for you, you fought your first election in 2004. [0:20] And this is your first TV interview, your first interview. [0:25] Well, it's not my first interview but it's my first formal interview of this type, yeah. [0:30] Why has it taken so long? [0:31] Well, I've done a lot of media interactions prior. I've done press conferences and I've spoken in the media. [0:38] But mainly my focus, the bulk of my focus has been in internal party work and that's where I've been concentrating. [0:50] So, that's where most of my energy was going. [0:54] Is it that you've been reluctant to communicate more on a one-to-one basis? [0:57] No, not at all. I mean, I've had many many press conferences that you've seen, sir. [1:03] It's not that you wanted to avoid touching on difficult or tough issues? [1:07] No, I mean, I like difficult or tough issues. I like dealing with that. [1:10] So, now that this is your first detailed and long interview Rahul, in 10 years, we have a lot of ground to cover. [1:16] Sure. [1:17] So, I have one request to you right at the start. That let's be as specific as possible on the subjects that we deal with today. [1:23] Do I have your agreement on that? [1:24] Yeah, I mean, we'll be specific but if I would like to sort of explain things in a bit, in a broader fashion, I think that would be okay with you. [1:35] And if I want to draw you back into specifics. [1:37] So, you can draw me back as much as you want. [1:39] Okay. So, Rahul Gandhi, the first point is this, that you've just avoided this whole question about whether you're open for the Prime Minister's post. [1:49] Yeah. [1:50] It seems to me, Rahul, that you're avoiding a difficult contest. [1:57] See, if you look at the speech I gave in the AICC just a few days back, the issue is basically how the Prime Minister in this country is chosen. [2:13] Where the Prime Minister is chosen in this country is through the MPs. [2:18] Our system basically chooses MPs and then the MPs elect the Prime Minister. [2:23] I said pretty clearly in my speech in AICC that if the Congress party so chooses and the Congress party wants me to do anything for them, I'm happy to do that. [2:37] It's respect for the process. In fact, announcing your Prime Minister prior to an election, announcing your Prime Minister without asking the members of parliament is not actually was written in the constitution. [2:48] You did that in 2009? [2:49] No, we didn't. [2:50] Of course, you did. [2:51] No. What we did in 2009 was that we had an incumbent Prime Minister. Prime Minister won the election. [2:58] He then went to parliament. The members of parliament decided that that Prime Minister was going to continue and there was actually a process where he was asked. [3:09] You named your Prime Ministerial candidate, Rahul. That's very straightforward. [3:13] We had an incumbent Prime Minister and there was no question of our changing him. [3:19] See, Rahul, we can go up and down on this question. [3:21] The fact of the matter is this. Who else will they choose? [3:24] Who else will Congress MPs choose but Rahul Gandhi? [3:27] That's up to them, right? But what one has to do and I think this is central to what I keep saying is democracy is about respect of processes. [3:37] Democracy is about non-arbitary decisions. Democracy is about spreading decisions. It's not about destroying processes. [3:47] There is a process in the constitution. That process says and it's clearly written in the constitution. [3:52] It says members of parliament are to be elected by the population and members of parliament are to elect the Prime Minister. [3:59] All I'm doing is respecting that process. [4:01] Are you avoiding a direct face-off with Narendra Modi? [4:03] Is there a fear of loss, Rahul? Because this election frankly is not looking very good for the Congress party from overall estimates. [4:10] And the belief, the growing belief is that if Rahul Gandhi has not picked up the challenge officially, that means there is a fear of loss. [4:18] He is avoiding a direct one-on-one battle with Mr. Narendra Modi. Rahul, you must answer that now. [4:24] To understand that question, you have to understand a little bit about what Rahul Gandhi is and what Rahul Gandhi's circumstances have been. [4:36] And if you delve into that, you'll get an answer to the question of what Rahul Gandhi is scared of and what he is not scared of. [4:45] I mean, the real question, right, is what I'm doing sitting here. You're a journalist. When you were small, you must have thought to yourself, I want to do something, right? [4:59] You decided to become a journalist at some point. Why did you do that? [5:02] You're asking me the question. [5:04] Yeah, I'm asking you the question. This is a conversation. [5:06] Yeah, because I like and enjoy being a journalist. And because it is a professional challenge for me. [5:12] My question to you is, Rahul, are you avoiding a direct face-off with Narendra Modi? [5:17] I'm going to answer the question, but I don't want to ask you. When you were young and you thought about being a journalist, what drove you? [5:23] Once I decided to become a journalist, I cannot be half a journalist. Once you've decided to get into politics and you are leading your party effectively, [5:32] you can't be leading your party by half. So I throw the question, Rahul, with respect back at you. [5:37] And my question to you is, Narendra Modi is challenging you on a daily basis. [5:42] So I'll answer, you're not answering the question I asked you, but I'll answer, I'll answer the question that will give you some insight into what, how Rahul Gandhi thinks, okay? [5:52] And for that, I'll have to expand a little bit about my growing up, how I grew up, the circumstances I grew up in. [6:01] What I saw when I was a child was my father, who was a pilot, and because of circumstances was thrown into the political system. [6:14] And all I saw when I was small, after my grandmother died, was my father in constant, constant combat with the system in India. [6:25] In India. And then, I saw him, I saw him die, actually, right? [6:31] In my, in my, in my life, I've seen my grandmother die, I've seen my father die, I've seen my grandmother go to jail, [6:42] and I've actually been through a tremendous amount of pain, when, as a child, when these things happen to you. [6:49] I mean, there's absolutely no, there's, what I had to be scared of, I lost. [6:58] There's absolutely nothing I'm scared of. [7:01] Though there's, I have an aim, I have a clear aim in my mind. [7:06] And the aim is, that I do not like what I see in Indian politics. [7:12] It's something that is inside my heart. [7:15] It's like, when, you know, in our mythology, when they talk about, when they talk about Arjun, he only sees one thing. [7:22] He doesn't see anything else. [7:24] Uh, you ask me about Mr. Modi, you ask me about anything. [7:27] I only see one thing. [7:29] And, the thing I see, is that, the system in this country, needs to change. [7:34] I don't see anything, I'm blind to everything else. [7:37] Okay? [7:39] I'm blind because I saw, people I loved, being destroyed by this system. [7:43] I'm blind because, this system, every day, is unfair to our people. [7:48] I asked you today, you come from Assam. [7:50] Uh, you know, and I'm sure, that you also, in your work, feel the unfairness of this system. [7:57] You're not going to answer my question, so we're not going to go there. [8:00] But, this system, every day, every day, every day, every day hurts people. [8:05] Okay? [8:06] And, I felt the pain that this system can cause. [8:09] I felt the pain with my father. [8:11] And, I saw him every single day of his life. [8:13] So, the question of, whether I'm afraid of losing an election, or whether I'm afraid of Mr. Modi, or whether I'm afraid of these things, is, I mean, it's not, one sec, let me, it's not actually the point. [8:24] What I want to do, I'm here, basically, for one thing. [8:29] I see tremendous energy in this country. [8:33] I see more energy in this country than I see in any other country. [8:38] I see billions of youngsters. [8:40] And, I see that this energy is trapped. [8:42] And, this energy is trapped for a couple of things. [8:45] And, this energy is trapped… [8:46] Rahul, can I draw you back to my question? [8:48] I will go into those areas. [8:50] And, I respect what you're telling me about your personal journey. [8:53] It's not, Rahul, as if I lack empathy for what you're saying. [8:57] In fact, I'm sure many people do. [8:59] But, my question to you is, Narendra Modi calls you a Shehzada. [9:03] Now, let's be very specific, Rahul. [9:05] Narendra Modi calls you a Shehzada. [9:07] What is your view of Narendra Modi? [9:10] A. [9:11] B. [9:12] Are you afraid of losing to Narendra Modi? [9:15] Rahul, please answer my question as specifically as you can. [9:18] What Rahul Gandhi wants to do is Rahul Gandhi and millions of youngsters in this country [9:27] want to change the way the system in this country works. [9:30] What Rahul Gandhi wants to do is empower the women in this country. [9:35] Wants to unleash the power of these women. [9:37] I mean, we talk about, we talk about being a superpower. [9:39] You're avoiding my question. [9:40] Narendra Modi. [9:41] My question to you is, what is the Congress Vice President's view of the BJP's prime ministerial candidate? [9:48] I think we'll defeat the BJP in the next election. [9:50] And what is your view of the BJP's prime ministerial candidate? [9:53] The BJP has a prime ministerial candidate. [9:56] The BJP believes in concentration of power in the hands of one person. [10:01] I fundamentally disagree with that. [10:02] I believe in democracy. [10:04] I believe in opening up the system. [10:06] I believe in the RTI. [10:07] I believe in giving power to our people. [10:09] We have fundamentally different philosophies. [10:11] What is your view? [10:12] Would you like to expand your views? [10:13] The prime minister, your prime minister accuses Narendra Modi in his press conference. [10:18] Yeah. [10:19] Of presiding over, and I quote, the mass massacre of innocent citizens on the street of Ahmedabad. [10:25] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, my question to you is this. [10:28] Do you agree with your prime minister when he says that? [10:32] Well, I mean, what the prime minister is saying is a fact. [10:35] I mean, Gujarat happened, people died. [10:38] But the real issue as far as I'm concerned. [10:40] How do you accuse Mr. Narendra Modi of it? [10:42] No. [10:44] Gujarat happened, people died. [10:45] The real issue at hand here. [10:46] How is Mr. Modi responsible for it? [10:49] He was chief minister when Gujarat happened. [10:52] The fact remains that Narendra Modi has been given a clean shit in the Gulbarg massacre case by the SIT and the court, Mr. Gandhi. [10:59] My question to you is, can the Congress party sustain its attack on Mr. Narendra Modi on this issue when he has been given the clean shit by the courts in the Gujarat riots? [11:11] Mr. The Congress parties, the Congress party and the BJP have two completely different philosophies. [11:18] Our attack on the BJP is based on the idea that this country needs to move forward democratically. [11:25] It needs to push democracy deeper into the country. [11:28] It needs to push democracy into the villages. [11:30] It needs to give women democratic power. [11:32] It needs to give youngsters democratic power. [11:34] It is about opening the doors of the Congress party, about empowering the youth. [11:38] How is Narendra Modi responsible for the Gujarat riots? [11:41] When the courts have given him a clean shit, politically your party's attack is to criticize Narendra Modi and draw him into the Gujarat riots. [11:48] Our political party is fighting an ideological battle against the BJP. [11:52] And let me draw out the two pillars. [11:55] Our party believes that women should be empowered. [11:58] That democracy should go to every house. [12:00] That the RTI, the Narega paradigm should be further expanded. [12:07] The BJP believes that power should be extremely concentrated in this country. [12:14] Few people should run this country. [12:16] And the large mass of people in this country should have no voice. [12:20] But specifically speaking, how is Narendra Modi? [12:23] Your party criticized him for the 2002 Gujarat riots. [12:26] How can you do that when he has been given a clean shit in the Gulbag massacre by the SIT of the court? [12:31] He was challenged in the court. [12:33] The court upheld the SIT findings. [12:35] And therefore, legally speaking, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, you cannot draw Narendra Modi into the Gujarat riots, implicate him personally. [12:42] Do you believe that strategy of your party is fundamentally wrong or flawed? [12:45] The strategy of my party is very simple. [12:48] Everything that we have done over the last 5 years, 10 years. [12:52] In fact, if you look all the way back to the freedom movement, [12:55] every single thing we have ever done is empower people. [12:59] We empower people in the freedom movement. [13:01] We empower farmers in the green revolution. [13:04] We empower the citizens of India when we did the telecom revolution. [13:08] We have empowered millions and millions of people through, frankly, the most powerful legislation that has taken place in this country called the RTI, Right to Information. [13:21] Things that used to be closed, things that were in closed doors that nobody knew about. [13:26] I will come to that. [13:27] But you haven't answered my question on the Gujarat riots. [13:30] Gujarat riots is the question. [13:32] Your party has consistently wanted to put Mr. Narendra Modi on the back foot on the Gujarat riots. [13:37] He says, he says, the courts have given me a clean chip. [13:40] And I am asking you today, is your party's argument about putting him on the back foot on the Gujarat riots flawed given the way the courts have looked? [13:48] No. [13:49] The Prime Minister stated his position on the Gujarat riots. [13:52] The Gujarat riots took place. [13:53] People died. [13:54] Mr. Narendra Modi was in charge of Gujarat at that point. [13:57] I am bringing you to the real ideological battle that is taking place here. [14:01] The real ideological battle that is taking place here and the one we are going to win. [14:05] And that has always been won in this country, is the battle of empowering people in this country. [14:10] Of course, there is your point about the Gujarat riots. [14:14] And it is very important that people who have taken part in this type of thing are brought to book. [14:19] But the real issue at hand here is empowering the women of this country, giving them true power. [14:24] We talk about super power, we talk about super power, India being a super power. [14:29] We can only be half a super power if our women are not empowered. [14:33] What I want to do going forward is basically focus on three things. [14:38] Focus on empowering our people, truly empowering our people, giving them democratic rights within the political party. [14:45] I want youngsters who come in and really, really push democracy in the party. [14:50] I want to empower them and I want to make India, together with everybody, taking everybody together, [14:56] I want to put India on the manufacturing map. I want to make this the center of manufacturing in the world. [15:01] I want to make this place at least as much as the manufacturing power as China is. [15:08] Mister, you say that Narendra Modi was chief minister during the Gujarat riots and the BJP was in power. [15:14] The BJP was as much in power in Gujarat during the riots as Achillesh is in power in Uttar Pradesh. [15:19] All for that matters, the Congress party was in power when the 1984 anti-Sikh riots happened. [15:24] Now, let me quote, you spoke in one of your speeches of the anger of your grandmother's death. [15:30] I think it was on the campaign trail in Rajasthan. [15:32] You spoke about knowing the people who killed her and you spoke about anger and managing your own anger [15:38] and quelling your own anger and drawing it into strength elsewhere. [15:42] Now, that speech of yours became a subject of controversy [15:46] with Narendra Modi posing a series of questions to you in 84 and he said the following [15:50] and I want to quote him and I want your categorical and specific response. [15:53] He says, he's crying for the assassination of his grandmother, [15:57] but has he shed tears for those killed in the 1984 riots? [16:01] I want to ask the Shehzada, and you remember Mr. Gandhi, he's constantly deriding you [16:07] by calling you a Shehzada whether your party killed Sikhs in anger when your grandmother died. [16:14] So, following from this, I have two questions. [16:16] My first question is, do you acknowledge the role of congressman in the 1984 riots? [16:21] B, will you apologize for the riots as your party demands an apology from Modi for the Gujarat riots? [16:27] Well, two things. In 1977, when my grandmother lost the election, [16:36] we went and lived in 12 Billings, Narendra, and the people who came with my grandmother, [16:43] those people who stood by my grandmother, were Sikhs. [16:49] Pretty much everybody had deserted my grandmother, but the Sikhs were standing with my grandmother. [16:55] I think the Sikhs are probably one of the most industrious people in this country. [17:06] I admire them, but we have a prime minister who's a Sikh. [17:10] See, I don't have the same world view as my opposition. [17:16] What those two people did to my grandmother was two individuals. [17:23] I don't turn around and take my anger, which existed then, frankly doesn't exist now, and brush it onto an entire community. [17:34] That's just not me. [17:35] I'm sure you don't, but my question was, do you acknowledge the role of congressman in the 1984 riots? [17:42] Because there must be justice. Mr. Gandhi, there has to be finality. [17:45] The Gujarat riots cases have moved forward and many people have got justice. [17:49] If I just compare that to the 1984 riots, you can look at the status and case history of what happened with Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Title and HKL Bhagat, Dharam Das Shastri. [17:58] And the one story which you hear there is that the cases are endless. [18:01] They go on for the longest period of time. [18:03] I'm asking you again, Mr. Gandhi, before you seek an apology from Modi, would you apologize for the 1984 riots? [18:10] Would that be something you consider? [18:12] I do not take my anger, which existed, on two people, two individuals who did something evil and wrong and overlay it on millions of people. [18:25] I think that's criminal. [18:27] Okay. [18:28] Did the Sikh riots take place in Delhi? [18:31] Absolutely. [18:32] Were they completely wrong? [18:34] Absolutely. [18:35] Were congressmen involved? [18:36] Did innocent people die? [18:37] Absolutely. [18:38] Were congressmen involved? [18:39] Some congressmen probably were involved. [18:43] But has justice been delivered? [18:45] Yes. [18:46] There is a legal process through which they have gone. [18:48] You admit some congressmen were probably involved? [18:50] I mean, some congressmen have been punished for it. [18:53] In that case, why don't you apologize for the 1984 riots? [18:56] No, so I'm… [18:57] The congressmen who you are talking about are still fighting their cases. [19:01] And in 2009, if I am not mistaken, Jagdish titler, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, was going to get nominated as a congress candidate. [19:07] It was only following the media furore that his nomination was taken back. [19:12] Mr. Gandhi, I am asking you this question with all seriousness. [19:16] Do you feel that congressmen were involved? [19:19] And two, do you believe that you personally, if you apologize for the riots, there will be a finality? [19:24] The fact of the matter is that innocent people died in 1984. [19:30] And innocent people dying is a horrible thing and should not happen. [19:36] The difference between Gujarat and 1984 was that the government of Gujarat was involved in the riots. [19:47] How do you say that? [19:52] The chief minister of Gujarat has been given the clean shit by the courts. [19:56] The government of the difference between the 84 riots and the riots in Gujarat was that in 1984, the government was trying to stop the riots. [20:06] I remember, I was a child and I remember that the government was doing everything it could to stop the riots. [20:12] In Gujarat, the opposite was the case. [20:14] The government in Gujarat was actually abetting and pushing the riots further. [20:19] So there's a huge difference between the two things. [20:22] Saying that innocent people dying is absolutely wrong. [20:27] Explain that. [20:28] Government of Gujarat was aiding and abetting the riots is what you just said. [20:32] Explain that. [20:33] I mean, it's not me. [20:34] It's large numbers of people who were there. [20:36] It's large numbers of people who saw actively the government of Gujarat being involved in the riots. [20:42] And you keep that line despite the chief minister getting a clean shit from the courts? [20:45] I mean, people saw it. [20:48] I'm not the person who saw it. [20:49] Your colleagues saw it. [20:50] Your colleagues told me. [20:52] They saw riots. [20:53] They didn't see the government of Gujarat. [20:54] They saw the administration. [20:56] They saw the administration actively attacking minorities. [21:01] Are you saying the government of Gujarat was... [21:04] What are you... [21:05] What is the... [21:06] What I'm saying is that there was a difference between the 1984 riots and the riots in Gujarat. [21:10] The difference was that the government in 1984 was trying to stop the riots, was trying to stop the killing. [21:18] Whereas the government in Gujarat was allowing the riots. [21:22] How was... [21:23] If the government in Delhi and in the center was trying to stop the riots in 1984, then tell me, how is it possible that Sajjan Kumar was named in FIRs on grounds of inciting violence in outer Delhi leading to the murder of Sikhs? [21:35] The status of the case is known. [21:37] How is Jagdish Titler accused of inciting the mob at Pulbangash leading to murder and rioting in the area? [21:42] How is the late HKL Bhagat accused of inciting violence? [21:45] And you know that appeal in the Delhi High Court was closed after his death. [21:48] How did these Congress leaders do what they did allegedly if the government was so strongly and proactively acting against the riots? [21:55] There is a process. [21:56] There is a legal process. [21:57] And that process is on. [21:58] There was an SIT finding. [22:00] It was challenged by Zakia Jafri. [22:02] It went up there and the courts upheld what the SIT found. [22:05] Are you questioning the wisdom of the courts? [22:07] All I'm saying, all I'm saying is that there is a difference between the 1984 riots and the Gujarat riots. [22:15] The simple difference is that in 1984, the government was not involved in the massacre of people. [22:23] In Gujarat, it was. [22:25] The question is, why do these type of things take place? [22:28] Why is it that the Gujarat riots take place? [22:32] The Gujarat riots take place, frankly, because of the way our system is structured, [22:37] because of the fact that people do not have a voice in the system. [22:40] And what I want to do, and I've said it and I will say it again, [22:43] what I want to do is question the fundamentals over here. [22:46] What I want to do is ask a couple of questions. [22:49] I want to ask why candidates that are chosen in every single party are chosen by a tiny number of people. [22:57] I want to ask why women have to be scared to go out in the street. [23:03] I want to ask these questions. [23:06] These are fundamental questions. [23:07] I appreciate that. [23:08] You believe in transparency. [23:10] I'll move away from Gujarat, though I must say that I have not found this comparison between [23:14] 1984 and Gujarat riots that they are two different cases. [23:18] I mean, I can't take this at face value, Mr. Gandhi. [23:21] And the reason for this is because in both cases, the government, [23:24] the accusation is that the government could have done a little bit more. [23:27] But at the same time, I want you to once more, if you can substantiate, [23:32] you stand by what you said that you believe the chief minister and the government of Gujarat played a role in abetting the riots. [23:37] What I'm saying is there is a difference between the 1984 riots and the Gujarat riots. [23:44] The difference is that the government of the day in 1984 was not aiding and abetting the riots. [23:51] But you don't need to apologize for the 84 riots. [23:54] If someone seeks an apology from you, will you give it? [23:58] Your prime minister has apologized for the riots, expressed deep regret. [24:01] Will you do the same? [24:04] First of all, I wasn't involved in the riots at all. [24:08] I mean, it wasn't that I was part of it. [24:09] On behalf of your party. [24:10] I think the riots were not as all riots were a horrible event. [24:18] Now, frankly, I was not in operation in the Congress party. [24:23] Mr. Gandhi, let's move on to the RTI, which is the single biggest legislation to combat corruption, [24:29] which you said in your speech at the AICC. [24:33] That was something that you were speaking about. [24:36] Now, I find it ironical that a party which has 90.38% of its funds from cash between 2008 and 2012, [24:48] 89.11% of its money in this period comes from unnamed sources. [24:54] Why would you not say charity begins at home and let's put the Congress party and its funds under the scanner of the RTI? [25:02] Well, I mean, why would you not bring the same freshness of perspective in this case as you brought when you dealt with the issue of the ordinance? [25:08] I think political parties should be under RTI if political parties feel and it's a law that has to be passed in parliament. [25:16] If political parties unanimously feel that that is the case, it should be the case. [25:19] What will be your view on it? [25:20] My position, my position is that the more openness, the better. [25:24] Your own personal view is that political parties should be under the RTI? [25:28] The issue is this. [25:29] Laws in this country are passed by parliament. [25:32] What one needs to do is pass a law in parliament that brings RTI into the political party. [25:39] I have a personal view on it, but you have to take that view through parliament. [25:43] I have a view also, for example, on the six bills that are sitting in parliament. [25:46] I'll come to that. [25:47] But my question is on the RTI. [25:48] I want your view on it. [25:49] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, you are a very influential politician. [25:52] You have demonstrated some of your actions in the past that what you say and do can influence decisions in government and in parliament. [26:00] So my question to you is very significant. [26:02] You said that in the AICC, you said we enacted this revolutionary law to hand you power knowing fully well that it would place our own government under severe scrutiny. [26:12] I agree with you. [26:13] What about placing your own party under scrutiny? [26:15] Are you open to that? [26:17] I am the first person who has been saying over the last five years, talking about transparency in the party. [26:26] I have made the Youth Congress and the NSUI fully elected bodies. [26:31] I have spoken about the six bills in parliament. [26:35] I have spoken about the Lokpal Bill and I have pushed the Lokpal Bill. [26:39] I was involved in the RTI. [26:41] We worked together to bring the RTI. [26:43] So as far as transparency in the political party is concerned, I am absolutely for transparency. [26:48] There is a question about the RTI that need to be discussed and thought through. [26:54] The real question is that our system is based on different pillars. [27:00] And the question is which ones of these pillars should have RTI? [27:05] Because if you only put RTI into one pillar and you don't have RTI in, for example, the judiciary and the press and in other areas, then you might create an imbalance. [27:16] Am I for opening up? [27:18] Am I for bringing RTI into as many places as possible? [27:21] Absolutely. [27:22] Am I for creating an imbalance and weakening the legislative structures of this country? [27:26] No, I am not. [27:27] Am I for placing politicians, how does putting political parties under the purview of the Right to Information Act, how does that actually weaken the legislative process? [27:35] It brings in transparency. [27:36] No, it brings in transparency, but it changes the balance of power. [27:40] How? [27:41] Because the judiciary does not have RTI, the press does not have RTI, other components of the system do not have RTI. [27:49] The press does not rule the country? [27:51] No, it doesn't. [27:52] But the press, okay, the judiciary does not have RTI. [27:55] So you have to have a complete thinking. [28:01] So if you want to bring RTI, you want to deepen RTI, you have to think about it in a composite manner. [28:06] You cannot just say, okay, let's put RTI here, put RTI. [28:09] You have to have a strategy to put RTI and open the system together. [28:13] And as far as opening the system is concerned. [28:15] But you're willing to let a discussion happen on bringing political parties. [28:18] Of course I am. [28:19] You're not opposed to that. [28:20] No, I'm not opposed to any discussion ever. [28:22] No, on this specific subject. [28:24] On all subjects. [28:25] But one has to take care that one is not creating imbalances in the system. [28:33] And that's something that one has to discuss. [28:37] Mr. Gandhi, do I sense that you were almost committing yourself and then pulled back? [28:42] No, no, no. [28:43] I've said that I'm happy to have a discussion. [28:44] You're happy to have a discussion? [28:45] Of course. [28:46] On bringing political parties under RTI? [28:47] Absolutely. [28:48] Okay. [28:49] But let me just go back and let me give you a little, let me go further than that. [28:58] Okay. [28:59] The main issue, if you look at the real serious, the central question in all this, central question [29:09] in all this is who chooses political candidates and how, right? [29:12] The central issue in all this is what is the power of the member of parliament, the power [29:18] of the MLA and the power of the Pradhan in the political system. [29:21] If you look at the legislative power of a member of parliament, you look at the legislative power [29:28] of an MLA today. [29:30] And you look at the role that he plays in parliament and the role that he plays in the assembly. [29:34] He doesn't actually make laws. [29:37] He presses buttons. [29:40] Okay. [29:41] If you look at, go to a state like Uttar Pradesh and you look at actually the lawmaking, [29:46] done by the MLAs, extremely limited. [29:51] You can't talk about bringing people into politics. [29:54] You can't talk about opening up the system until you start to empower these people. [29:58] Understood. [29:59] Was it part of the empowerment of people that Ashok Chawan was protected in the others' camp, [30:05] despite the fact that the Judicial Commission actually said that he was involved in a quid pro quo, [30:10] a chief minister, an ex-chief minister forced to go because of one of the biggest scams, [30:15] which was, by the way, Mr. Rahul Gandhi played out greatly on Times Now, is being protected. [30:20] The CBA is not getting permission to prosecute it. [30:24] Why? [30:25] Now, you can say all this, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, about the legislative framework to fight corruption. [30:31] But my question to you is more fundamental. [30:33] You have not shown the political will to use your tremendous influence to ensure that Ashok Chawan faces justice. [30:45] You said a little bit and you moved back. [30:47] Why are you still protecting Ashok Chawan? [30:50] I'm sorry, the Congress party, wherever, wherever we have had issues of corruption, we have taken action on every front. [30:57] We are the ones who brought the RTI, which is the single biggest, single biggest weapon against corruption. [31:02] And we got it ourselves. [31:05] We are the ones who delivered RTI to this country and it is RTI. [31:08] No, I'm not. [31:09] Your cabinet, your cabinet rejected, your Maharashtra cabinet, you're in power, rejected the Judicial Commission report on Adarsh. [31:14] Right. [31:15] You made it. [31:16] And after that, the governor refused to give prosecution to go against Ashok Chawan. [31:19] One minute, sir. [31:20] None of this was part of the empowerment of the people. [31:22] You said you're not for it. [31:23] After that, in some kind of tardy, if I may say so, partial acceptance of the report, the bureaucrats are blamed. [31:30] And each and every politician, including Mr. Ashok Chawan, gets away. [31:33] I want to ask you, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, you said you will not compromise. [31:37] You will not make small compromises. [31:39] How big a compromise was it for you to continue to protect Ashok Chawan? [31:43] Why are you protecting Ashok Chawan? [31:45] I made my position, Mr. Ashok Chawan, absolutely clear. [31:50] I made it in front of a press conference. [31:52] I made it absolutely clear exactly what I thought about that issue. [31:55] Let me go back again to the issue at hand. [31:59] The issue at hand is bringing in youngsters into the political system, opening the doors. [32:06] Ashok Chawan, the chief minister sort of did a partial acceptance, which basically means bureaucrats are faulted in the report. [32:14] They are penalized, indicted politicians get away. [32:18] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, I'm asking you this because, you know, you've come up on the issue. [32:24] Do you have the political conviction to push this through? [32:27] What will you say to the people watching the interview today who will say, you know what? [32:31] You said it, but you're not taking responsibility. [32:33] The man still gets away is scot-free. [32:34] Why should a bureaucrat be punished and a Congress politician be let go? [32:38] What I will say is that in the Congress party, anybody who does any act of corruption [32:44] will be taken up and punished. [32:46] What about Ashok Chawan? [32:47] Every single person. [32:48] What I will say is that there are six bills in Parliament that are sitting there. [32:52] Bring them in, pass them. [32:54] But your words are not matching your actions, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. [32:58] You are saying it, but yet the politicians, they all got away scot-free, including not just Ashok Chawan, [33:03] there are several other NCP ministers, all of whom tried to interfere and meddle in the process. [33:08] They used the name of Kargil, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, to give themselves private profit. [33:13] If you say this and you have the conviction, why are you not following it through? [33:18] I have made it absolutely crystal clear, right in front of the press, what I think about this issue. [33:23] But nothing happened? [33:24] What do you think nothing happened? [33:25] Ashok Chawan faces no action. [33:28] Absolutely not. [33:29] What all I am saying is that anybody, regardless of who he is, if there is any corruption done by any Congress person, [33:36] we will take action. [33:37] Would you like to see Ashok Chawan face again? [33:39] We have punished our own ministers. [33:42] We have put the most powerful bills in the Parliament House. [33:46] Please get those bills passed. [33:48] That's what I tell the opposition. [33:49] I am giving you two examples. [33:50] One ex-Chief Minister, one of the present Chief Minister, Veer Badr Singh. [33:53] My question to you is, we have papers which have shown that the Chief Minister takes money from a company, [33:59] which his government does business with, and he takes money, large amounts of money are put in, [34:05] and then he says, you know, I just took the money as a personal loan because I wanted to do renovations in my palace. [34:10] My question is, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, and this is really fundamental, because you have taken a position of corruption of late. [34:18] Do you think it is appropriate for another Chief Minister of State to be deciding on a fate of a company that he is revealed to have close links with, [34:25] and by not speaking on it, because you have not spoken on it, aren't you missing on yet another opportunity to address the issue of corruption head on? [34:32] Veer Badr Singh. [34:33] As far as any corruption done, there is a legal process, and that legal process should be followed and concluded. [34:43] As far as my personal view is concerned, anybody who is corrupt should be brought to book. [34:47] Was the legal process completed when Eh Raja was asked to leave the cabinet? [34:51] We took actions on the DMK ministers. [34:53] Was the legal process completed when Mr. Kalmadi was asked to leave as Secretary of the Congress Parliamentary Committee? [34:58] We took action, we took action, we took action on the corrupt ministers. [35:03] We have passed a bill in Parliament, the Lokpal Bill, the most powerful thing. [35:07] We have got you RTI, and we have got six bills sitting in Parliament House. [35:11] We have to change the way the system works. [35:16] We are always talking about peripheral things, we are never talking about the core reason the system is corrupt. [35:25] The core reason the system is corrupt is because there is too much concentration of power in the system, [35:30] and people on the peripheries do not have power, the people on the streets do not have power, [35:35] and the reason that happens is because our political system, our political parties are shut. [35:40] We need to open the door of the political parties, we need to move, carry out more legislation like RTI, [35:45] and we need to change the system. [35:47] Are you open to taking action on Ashok Chawan and Veer Badr Singh? [35:50] Have you seen the papers yourself? Will you examine it Mr. Kalmadi? [35:52] Look. [35:53] Will you examine it? [35:55] I don't understand anybody who is corrupt should be punished. [35:58] I am not a judge. [36:01] So, if there is a legal process and there is a result of the legal process, absolutely they should be punished. [36:08] I am not a person who… [36:12] There is no case being followed up on Veer Badr Singh. [36:14] There is no case being followed up on Veer Badr Singh. [36:15] I know that, but I am saying that it is not… [36:17] My job is where I see issues of corruption arising to take action. [36:22] That is what I do. [36:23] But Mr. Gandhi, now you see, the other question is, should you have spoken up much, much earlier? [36:29] You know, you didn't, everyone wants to know today, why didn't you speak up during 2G? [36:34] Why didn't you speak up during Colgate? [36:36] Why didn't you speak up, I think it was June 2010 that Times Now broke the CWG scam in Railgate. [36:42] You could have spoken up and you can't take the defense that you were not very actively there. [36:48] No, I am sorry. [36:49] You could have been, for some time, effectively be in charge of the 2014 re-election campaign. [36:54] My position was that I report to the Prime Minister. [36:59] Whatever I had conversations with the Prime Minister, whatever I felt about these issues, [37:06] I made it abundantly clear to the Prime Minister. [37:08] I was involved in the legislation, RTI legislation, and now I have passed the, have passed the Lokpal Bill. [37:17] I bring you back. [37:18] The real issue here is participation of people in politics. [37:23] It is bringing youngsters into the political system. [37:25] It is opening out the political system. [37:27] That's where nobody wants to talk. [37:30] Everybody is perfectly happy with 500 people running the entire system in India. [37:35] Nobody, none of you want to raise that issue, the fundamental issue. [37:38] How do we choose candidates? [37:40] Do you feel you undermined yourself by remaining silent? [37:43] You did not use your immense clout. [37:44] I want to ask you this, Mr. Gandhi. [37:46] When this whole Pawan Kumar Bansal and Ashwini Kumar episode happened, [37:50] for six days the government batted back. [37:52] Everyone said this is unacceptable. [37:54] Six days the parliament was washed out. [37:56] Do you feel in retrospect, that's a very specific question. [37:59] Do you feel in retrospect that you could have spoken out earlier? [38:02] Mr. Gandhi, please be frank with me on this. [38:04] Do you feel you should have spoken out earlier? [38:06] What I feel is that this country needs to start looking at the fundamental issues at hand. [38:13] The fundamental issues at hand, the fundamental political issue at hand, [38:17] is that our political system is controlled by too few people. [38:20] And we absolutely have to change the way our political system is structured. [38:24] We have to change our political parties. [38:26] We have to make them more transparent. [38:28] We have to change the processes that we use to elect candidates. [38:31] We have to empower women in the political parties. [38:34] That's, that's where the meat of the issue is. [38:37] But I don't hear that discussion. [38:39] I don't hear, I don't hear the discussion about, you know, [38:43] how are we actually choosing that candidate? [38:45] That's never a discussion. [38:48] Discussion is once everything is over. [38:50] It's a discussion. [38:51] I'm asking you, how are you choosing Ashok Chawan? [38:53] That's a discussion I'm willing to have. [38:56] How are you choosing Veer Madrasingh, their elected representatives, their whole clout? [39:00] Absolutely. [39:01] Does their clout make them oblivious to public accountability? [39:03] No, it does. [39:04] Their clout does not make them oblivious. [39:06] But the real point here is the system behind them that has no processes, no systems. [39:13] And we just assume that the thing is going to work. [39:15] What you have to do, what we have to do, is we have to open that up. [39:18] We have to open that and bring that, bring youngsters into that. [39:21] And that no one is discussing. [39:22] Mr. Gandhi, a lot of people felt when you say I will not make compromises, you got a round of applause when you spoke up on the ordinance. [39:31] Now there are many people who faulted you for your technique and said this is not the right way to do it. [39:35] He could have chosen a slightly more discreet or polite way to do it, not that I suggest that was impolite. [39:40] But I want to extend that further, Mr. Gandhi, and I want to ask you, will you make compromises, Mr. Gandhi? [39:45] Are you willing to make compromises for politics, for political purposes, alliances or convenience? [39:53] My long term, my long term view on this is that we need to take the Indian political system to a different place. [40:00] We need to bring in youngsters and we need to move away from this concentration of power. [40:05] Unfortunately, the political system today is at a particular place. [40:11] And I cannot simply ignore the fact that the political system is at that place. [40:16] So, certainly, there are points at which you might have to take a decision where you are not 100% happy with it. [40:27] But the long term idea for me is to transform the system, is to bring in youngsters and to make sure that they are empowered. [40:36] Lalu Prasad has been convicted on the 30th of September 2013 for the alleged fraudulent withdrawal of crores of rupees from the Chaibasa Treasury in the 1990s. [40:46] A case you are completely aware of. My question to you is, Mr. Gandhi, will you make that compromise despite this case to enter into a political arrangement? [40:57] Because when you spoke about the ordinance, there was the backdrop of the Lalu Prasad case which was also coming up. [41:04] Will you make that compromise? [41:05] We are, we are, these decisions in the Congress party are made by senior leaders. [41:13] You are the boss? [41:14] Yeah, yeah, they are committed. They are made by senior leaders. Our alliance in Gujarat, in Bihar, is with the political party with an idea. [41:22] It is not with an individual. We are making an alliance and it's not certain that we are going to make an alliance. [41:30] We are in the process of talking to people and our alliance is with an idea with the party. It is not with an individual. [41:38] If I were to take that further and challenge you, Mr. Gandhi, in saying that there is talk about possible alliances with the DMK, [41:44] a possible alliance with Lalu Prasad and if you are accused, please don't take it that I am accused, if you are accused by others and your political opponents of saying, [41:53] you know, he talks about not making small compromises but he agrees to enter into convenient alliances with parties for a short term political purpose, [42:01] how will you justify yourself? [42:03] We are fighting an election. We are going to win that election. There are alliance partners. There is our alliance partner in Maharashtra. [42:14] There is our alliance partner in Bihar. We have alliance partner in Jihad Khan. And we are making an alliance with their perspective, their view. [42:25] We are not making an alliance with an individual. [42:27] Leader of the party is Lalu Prasad. Hence, you are making an alliance with an individual. [42:30] No, we are making an alliance with a political party. [42:38] But these are not settled alliances yet, but you are open to them. [42:43] Mr. Gandhi, the other question is that of price rise. You got a round of applause when you spoke about the LPG cylinders and you told the Prime Minister quite charmingly, [42:53] that Mr. Prime Minister, please make things more, you know, less difficult for households. [42:58] Now, Mr. Alganthi, I am not just talking about that. I am questioning your silence for all these years because in this period, 2004 to 2013, [43:08] wholesale price index of food goes up by 157 percent, vegetables by 350 percent and onions by 521 percent. [43:15] You don't speak on that. When Raj Baba says you can get food at 12 rupees per meal, you don't speak then. [43:21] When Rashid Masood says you can get a meal for 5 rupees, you don't speak then. The accusation there is and the general feeling is, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, [43:29] that you have really woken up on this issue after the 4-0 drubbing in the last state elections. You concede that. [43:34] No. I think women are the backbone of this country. I think women need to be empowered. [43:41] And I felt that price rise is an issue. Cylinders were a big issue. I went to Kerala and I got the sense that women were concerned about that. [43:52] And I made that view clear to everybody in the AICC session. [43:58] But you didn't intervene earlier. [43:59] I have been working with the Prime Minister on the price issue. I have been in discussions with him. [44:06] And I mean, we have taken steps, for example, in our states where we've called the chief ministers and we've taken steps that have actually reduced the prices on vegetables in our states. [44:18] So it's not that I just woke up. It's that I've been working on it. I've been working on it systematically. [44:23] But I think what I really feel, again, is that we need to start looking at empowering women, bringing them in, bringing them in and listening to them. [44:35] Did UPA2 let you doubt on prices? [44:37] Well, prices, I mean, prices are a reality. We've been… [44:41] Did the government let you down? When I look back at your comments, I find a comment each time, 2009, 10 and 11, you had a lot of faith in the Prime Minister. [44:48] You always say, I had discussions with the Prime Minister. [44:50] I still have faith in the Prime Minister. He's… [44:54] Does the government's track record on prices not make your faith in the Prime Minister shake a little? [44:58] Well, we are working on prices. As I said, we've spoken to our chief ministers and we have reduced the prices in the states where we are. [45:06] So you've not woken up to it only because of political purposes. [45:09] No. [45:10] You're not using it right now, only for political purposes. [45:12] Mr. Gandhi, what do you think of the Amadmi Party? And why are your views constantly shifting on the Amadmi Party? [45:21] On the 8th of December, after the loss, you came out, quite candidly spoke about traditional, non-traditional parties, non-traditional parties being those who have involved a lot of people. [45:31] Suddenly, I find that now you seem to be over-critical of the Amadmi Party. I presume you were talking of them when you said that there are people who can give haircuts to the bald. [45:41] Were you referring to them saying talking of parties to over-market themselves? Which party were you talking of? [45:47] The work that I've done in the Congress Party, the work that I've done in the Youth Congress and the work that I'm going to do in the future is about bringing youngsters into this party, strengthening processes, strengthening candidate selection processes, strengthening policy processes. [46:01] I made a comment about the Amadmi Party where I said there is something that we can learn from them. [46:08] Yes. [46:09] And what I felt we could learn from them is that they reached out to people in a particular way that was good. [46:17] There are things that I don't think we should take away from them. [46:21] I think we have fundamental strengths in the Congress Party and it's something that we've been working on for three or four years now. [46:30] And the real power of the Congress Party is the depth of our organization. [46:36] And you can't actually make change, frankly, by destroying things. [46:40] I understand. But in a recent interview, Mr. Chidambaram said he felt the decision to provide support to the Amadmi Party was unnecessary and that opinion was divided on this within the Congress Party. [46:49] Having seen what you have in the recent days and the chaos that has followed in Delhi over the last few days, do you agree with that view? [46:56] Do you also feel in retrospect, Mr. Gandhi, that that support to the Amadmi Party may have been something you shouldn't have done? [47:03] Please, be candid and frank with me on this. [47:06] No, I think, I think as far as I'm concerned, the Amadmi Party won an election in Delhi and we thought that we would assist them. [47:17] They got less seats than the BJP. We thought we would assist them because our party felt we should give them a chance to prove themselves. [47:24] And one can see what they're doing. One can see exactly how much they've proved themselves. [47:30] What is your view on Arvind Kejribal? [47:32] He's a leader of an opposition party like many others. Our, what we have to do as the Congress Party, and again, in front of us, we have an election. [47:45] What we have to do in the Congress Party is basically three things. One is we have to transform ourselves. [47:50] We have to bring in youngsters. We have to give them space. Two is we have to look at manufacturing. [47:58] We have to look at how we can set up, we've already set up the corridors, north, south, east, west. [48:05] How we can take the energy of the Indian people and build a manufacturing super house. That is what I think the real issue is. [48:12] Are you using the Amadmi Party to split the anti-Congress vote back? [48:15] No. [48:17] To keep Mr. Modi out of power? [48:20] You're implying that we have brought the Amadmi Party. [48:22] No, no, I'm not. I'm not implying. I'm saying that there is a theory and I want your view on it. [48:27] The Congress is propping up the Amadmi Party, putting them on an extended leash so that they somehow divide the anti-Congress vote. [48:33] You see, they, had the Amadmi Party not been there, the BJP might have done much better in Delhi and maybe at a smaller level that experiment can be extended across it. [48:41] I think you underestimate, I think you underestimate the power of the Congress Party. [48:46] I think the Congress Party, I don't think the Congress Party could even do that if they wanted to. [48:52] But I think the Congress Party is an extremely powerful system and all that the Congress Party needs to do is bring in younger, fresher faces, which is what we're going to do in the next election. [49:03] And we're going to win the election. [49:04] You'll win the election? [49:05] Yeah, we'll win the election. [49:06] You're confident about that? [49:08] Reasonably confident. [49:09] And if you don't win, do you take full responsibility for it? [49:12] I mean, if we don't win… [49:14] Do you take full responsibility? [49:15] I am the Vice President of the party. Of course, I take responsibility for it. [49:20] If the Amadmi Party goes against Sheila Dixit in the CWG scam, will you continue supporting them? [49:25] As there are reports, they will. [49:27] I mean… [49:28] You're close to Sheila Dixit. [49:29] I've already said, I've already said that regardless of who the person is, if there is an issue of corruption, the law should take its own course. [49:39] That's my position. [49:41] I didn't choose to be born in this family. I didn't sign up and say, listen, I'd like to be born in this family. It happened. [49:49] So the choice in front of me is pretty simple. I can either turn around and say, okay, listen, I'll just walk away from this thing and leave it alone. [49:59] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, I now want to understand a little bit on your personal side. [50:24] My first question is that you have faced a lot of criticism. How do you handle criticism, Mr. Rahul Gandhi? [50:29] People say, and I'm only putting this out, I want to understand you. [50:33] Everyone says this about you. He has his heart in the right place. [50:36] But is he a vote catcher? [50:38] They pull out all the recent state elections, Uttar Pradesh, Delhi, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and Chhattisgarh. [50:43] They say he has not, despite playing an active role, achieved considerable electoral success. [50:48] They're questioning your vote winning ability. What would you say to them, Mr. Gandhi? [50:53] I'd say that when we win an election, when we won Uttarakhand, when we won Himachal, when we won Karnataka, I'm not involved. [51:05] When we lose an election, I'm the cause of it. But once again, I think what the Congress party needs to do is actually tap its potential. [51:17] What the Congress party needs to do is change the way its organization is structured and look at changing the way the politics in this country is structured. [51:26] That's, I think, where we should head. Questions about whether, you know, we have supported AAP or not supported AAP. [51:33] I mean, frankly, that's, it's a ridiculous notion. [51:36] You have supported the Aam Admi Party. It's a ridiculous that we would construct the Aam Admi Party. I mean, you know. [51:40] You'd support them. You'd give them a lease of life so that they divide the anti-Congress vote. [51:45] That describes huge power to the Congress party. I think the Congress party's strength comes when we open ourselves up, [51:54] when we bring in new people and that's historically been the case. And that's what I want to do. [51:58] Mr. Raul Gandhi, why do you keep invoking your family name? I have seen you refer to your, with respect to your father and your grandmother, [52:06] especially, repeatedly, repeatedly. Now, Mr. Gandhi, some would say that you should be careful of doing that because, [52:12] you know, when you invoke your family and its achievements from the Congress, you can be accused of doubting your family's background for your own political career. [52:22] That's one. The second would be, you would be re-entrenching yourself in the role of a dinist at a time when being a dinist does not seem to be a good thing. [52:30] Do you agree? Why do you have to keep invoking the family name? [52:36] I don't actually keep invoking my family name. I have mentioned my family name once or twice and then people report that. [52:45] The real issue is, I didn't choose to be born in this family. I didn't sign up and say, listen, I'd like to be born in this family. It happened. [52:54] So the choice in front of me is pretty simple. I can either turn around and say, okay, listen, I'll just walk away from this thing and leave it alone. [53:05] Or I can say, I can try and improve something. Pretty much every single thing I have done in my political career has been to open the system, [53:14] has been to bring in youngsters, has been to democratize. I am absolutely against the concept of dynasty. [53:23] Anybody who knows me knows that, understands that, right? But you're not going to wish away dynasty in a closed system. [53:35] You have to open the system. Dynasty, dynasty or children of politicians becoming powerful happens in the BJP, it happens in the DMK, it happens in the SP, [53:46] it happens in the Congress party, it happens everywhere. Then how are you different? [53:51] You got to go into, you got to go into why it's happening. [53:54] It's happening because dynasties are allowed to proliferate. It's because a Sindhya son is a minister, a Diora son is a minister, a pilot son is a minister, [54:03] a Prime Minister son is the Congress vice-president. That's dynasty. Change is not happening at the top, Mr. Gandhi. Change. You want change at the bottom. [54:11] There are people out there who are saying, we want change at the top. We want change at the top. [54:16] The reason children of politicians keep getting repositioned is because the system is closed. [54:25] You're not going to change that without opening the system. You're not going to open the system without having processes. [54:32] The system is not going to open just by waving a wand like that and saying, abracadabra, let's open the system. [54:37] It is going to take time. It is going to take effort. It is going to take structure. That is the work I do. [54:42] That is the work I spend a whole bunch of my time doing. That is the revolutionary work I've done in the IYC and the NSU Act. [54:50] That is the work that we are doing when we talk about an open manifesto. That is the work that we are doing when we talk about 15 parliamentary seats being chosen. [54:59] Only 15? Absolutely. Because one needs to set up the systems. If I was to suddenly launch into 546 seats being elected, being directly elected by people, the system would explode. [55:12] What I need to do is I need to set up an idea, test the idea, run the idea, if it makes sense, if the thing actually works, then move it into the rest of the party. [55:22] The step we have taken with those 15 primaries, I mean, we get that much of a little piece in the newspaper, but that is probably the biggest political step that is being taken in this country. [55:34] It is a huge, huge step. And I think those are the type of questions one needs to ask. And one doesn't ask them. One asks questions that don't actually reach to the heart of the issue. [55:46] You are talking about India. We have had a one-hour conversation here. You haven't asked me one question of how we are going to actually build this country. [55:58] How are we going to take this country forward? You haven't asked me one question on how we're going to empower our people. You haven't asked me one question on what we're going to do for youngsters. [56:06] You're not interested in that. That's wrong, Mr. Gandhi. If I was to know that, I'd hear a Rahul Gandhi speech. But this is not a Rahul Gandhi speech. This is a Rahul Gandhi interview. [56:14] My question was again, and I draw you back, Mr. Gandhi, I see that you have this knack of trying to throw the question back at me. I can only tell you, Mr. Gandhi, I'm going to ask the question. [56:24] My question to you is, how do you handle this? You see, the other view is that you're a fragile person. You get affected by criticism. Now, you know, Subramanyam Swami, I'm sure you know him. [56:38] He raises all kinds of questions. May I, with your permission? Of course, please. Subramanyam Swami has raised questions on your degrees. [56:47] He says, why does he claim he has an MPhil from Cambridge? Cambridge has no record of his thesis. You cannot get an MPhil without a thesis. He says, [56:57] Yes, he went to Harvard. When Rajiv Gandhi was Prime Minister, somebody, and I won't name, gave 11 million dollars to Harvard Medical School. [57:05] Dollars quota. Harvard has this quota. Once you enter, in three months, Harvard said to him, we don't think you belong here. [57:11] So he dropped out. He's questioned both your degrees. I want you today. [57:15] Were you in Cambridge? I was at Oxford. [57:17] But you spent some time at Cambridge? I was a fellow, visiting fellow at Cambridge for a while. [57:21] So where were you in Cambridge? At Sydney Sussex College. [57:25] So I was at Trinity in Cambridge. I spent a year there. I did my MPhil there. [57:30] Now, I want your response to... What's the response? I mean... [57:33] I want your response to Subramanyam. How do you deal with this? [57:36] You want me to show you my degree? I can show you my degree. [57:38] No, would you feel like showing him your degree? He's probably seen my degree. [57:42] I mean, I've written a... I've given an affidavit. A sworn affidavit saying that I've got these degrees. [57:50] Now, if I'm lying on the affidavit, let him take a legal process and solve it. [57:54] I mean, what more do you want me to do? We challenge him. [57:57] Why should I challenge him? Why should I challenge... [58:00] He's attacking you personally. He's attacked my family for 40 years. [58:03] Why should I challenge him? I mean... [58:05] Does it affect you, Mr. Gandhi? Does it affect you? [58:08] You know... [58:09] When you are attacked at a personal level, does it affect you? [58:11] And how do you choose not to respond? [58:12] I am... How do you bury your head in the sand and say, this is not happening. [58:15] It's happening to you. You are being criticized. [58:17] I respond... You see, I respond by understanding why I'm being attacked. [58:22] I'm being attacked because I'm doing things that are dangerous to the system. [58:30] I'm being attacked because I'm asking questions that are dangerous to the system. [58:35] And I'm not asking superficial questions. I'm not asking, you know, questions over here. [58:41] I'm asking questions over there. [58:43] And everybody understands that this fellow here is not a superficial little chap who just talks. [58:50] This fellow over here is thinking deeply and is thinking long-term. [58:56] That's why I'm attacked. I understand that. Right? [58:58] And frankly, attack me all you want. Beat me to death. It's not going to stop me. [59:03] I'm going to keep doing it. And I'm going to ask the questions that are relevant. [59:06] And you know what? I've got 1,000 people in the Congress party, 2,000 people in the Congress party youngsters who work in this stuff. [59:10] They're not letting go. And I'm proud of them. They're not letting go. It doesn't matter. [59:14] Keep throwing stones at us. That's the point. [59:17] The point is that the people who are attacked in this system, the people who are actually attacked, [59:22] are the people who are fighting the system. You understand that? [59:26] They're not the people who sit and ask the superficial questions. [59:29] They're the ones who are actually saying, listen, let's do something about this system. [59:33] They're the ones who are actually going deep into the processes, understanding that this is the crux of it. [59:38] And the crux of it, I've told you, the crux of it is how we choose candidates. [59:42] The crux of it is how we make policy. That's the crux of it. [59:45] The thing is, you don't like discussing it. You like discussing stuff, you know, [59:52] that really doesn't go to the core, doesn't go to the core. And I'm a serious politician. [59:59] I'm not somebody, you know, who is here to, you know, get power or make money or something. [1:00:10] I'm somebody who's here, who's seen what the system does to people. [1:00:16] I've seen, and I can give you example after example after example after example in my mind. [1:00:23] And I'm not, I'm not going to fight a superficial battle. I just am not. [1:00:28] It's not interesting to me. I'm going to fight a battle. [1:00:31] I'm going to fight a deep battle. And I'm going to take the youngsters in this country. [1:00:34] I'm going to line them up and I'm going to take the system on. Don't forget that. [1:00:37] You don't have thick skin, Mr. Rahul Gandhi. Politicians need to have thick skin. [1:00:43] And Mr. Gandhi, can I say something? [1:00:45] If I don't have a thick skin right now, it'll get thick. [1:00:47] Can I tell you one thing? I'll tell you one thing, Mr. Gandhi. [1:00:50] Yes, say you're a serious politician. I assure you, Mr. Gandhi, I'm a very serious journalist. [1:00:55] And therefore when I interview Rahul Gandhi, his first interview in 10 years, [1:00:59] it's my responsibility to ask you specific questions. [1:01:02] I'm glad you're taking them. My next question to you, and I have only two left, Mr. Gandhi. [1:01:08] How much have you been affected by your defeats? [1:01:12] And I, when we see, for example, the visuals of you and Priyanka and Priyanka holding you in after the UP election loss. [1:01:19] That picture, almost in a protective manner that Priyanka is holding you and you're walking away. [1:01:27] You tell me what's happening in your mind out there. [1:01:29] Do you feel overwhelmed by loss, by defeat because you've had quite a few of it? [1:01:34] How have you dealt with it? [1:01:36] It all depends on what you're trying to do, right? [1:01:42] I told you that I'm here because I want to use, I want to help use the energy of this country. [1:01:51] I want to make this country powerful. I want to project the ideas of this country. [1:02:00] To do that, I think there are basically three things that one needs to do. [1:02:08] One is changing the way we do politics here. [1:02:14] Getting away from superficialities, getting away from small issues and moving deeper into the issues, right? [1:02:27] Changing and questioning the system, changing the system. [1:02:30] Things like RTI, things like Lokpal, things like questioning how we choose candidates, [1:02:36] things like bringing youngsters into policy, right? [1:02:39] The second is empowering the women of this country, really bringing them into the system, [1:02:45] really pushing them forward. [1:02:47] And the third is using the energy of the youth of this country, [1:02:50] bringing them the type of jobs that they need. [1:02:56] This stuff is not done in five minutes. [1:02:58] This stuff is frankly not done in these type of discussions. [1:03:04] This stuff is done with concentrated thinking, with long-term work, [1:03:10] and frankly it's difficult work, it's painful work, okay? [1:03:15] If you're thinking about that, and you're thinking that that's what you want to do, [1:03:24] defeat just makes you stronger at once, it makes you want to do it more. [1:03:32] If you had not, you know, I don't, I don't think, I don't go into, I don't go into elections saying, [1:03:37] Oh my God, if we lose an election, that's the end of the world. [1:03:39] No, absolutely not. [1:03:41] We lose some elections, we'll win some elections. [1:03:43] But the real, the real thing is, it's a hard thing. [1:03:46] It's a soul thing. [1:03:47] Why are you here? [1:03:48] I asked you that question. [1:03:49] I asked you the question, why am I sitting here? [1:03:51] I'm sitting here because with all my heart, I think we need to change the way the system works here. [1:03:56] And not enough people are actually asking that question. [1:04:00] Will you be open to a debate between key candidates or representatives of the major parties? [1:04:08] Will you participate in such a debate if there will be one? [1:04:10] Mr. Gandhi, my last question to you in the course of this interaction is this. [1:04:34] Your father was forced into politics by circumstances. [1:04:39] He was, in your case as well, when you said power is poisoned, [1:04:47] and you spoke about how your mother Miss Sonia Gandhi came and, you know, she cried. [1:04:51] If I put that together with some of what you've said, it can reinforce the image of a reluctant prince. [1:04:59] And this is not my phrase. [1:05:00] I'm sure you've heard this phrase used against you or to describe you a number of times. [1:05:06] Therefore, Mr. Gandhi, the last question is this. [1:05:10] Had you not been a Gandhi, would you have been in politics at all? [1:05:18] If you look at my spirit, regardless of what I do, if I had been born in India, [1:05:32] regardless of what I do, I don't like unfairness. [1:05:38] It just makes my blood boil. I don't like it. [1:05:44] And in whatever I did, if I saw unfairness, I would stand up against it. [1:05:53] That's the heart of my politics. [1:05:56] What I see, what I see in India... [1:05:59] Would you have been in, my question was, if you were not a Gandhi, would you be in politics? [1:06:02] Some say this is a circumstance thrust on you, Mr. Gandhi. [1:06:05] You're thrust in this situation, you're trying to justify it to yourself that you need to do it. [1:06:09] But heart of heart, are you a politician? [1:06:11] And had you not been a Gandhi, would you have been in politics at all? [1:06:15] I mean, maybe, maybe, maybe you find me strange because... [1:06:23] No, I don't find you strange. [1:06:25] Well, you sort of implied that, but maybe you find me... [1:06:33] I look like an anomaly in the environment I'm in. [1:06:35] Maybe that's what you're saying. [1:06:36] And frankly, in a lot of ways, I am an anomaly in the environment I'm in. [1:06:47] The power is poison remark. [1:06:51] Yes. [1:06:52] And I tell this to my sister. [1:07:00] Yes. [1:07:02] And I tell it to my mother, and my mother tells it to me. [1:07:07] I don't get driven by the desire for power. [1:07:10] I'm just not driven by it. [1:07:12] For me, power is an instrument that can be used to do certain things. [1:07:21] But for me, it's not interesting to own it, to capture it, to hold it. [1:07:26] This is just something... [1:07:28] Maybe it's because of my family circumstances, what happened in my family. [1:07:35] Power per se, the quest for power, the search for power, the thirst for power is not there in me. [1:07:45] What is there in me is a desire, a very strong desire to reduce the pain that people feel. [1:07:54] To reduce the pain that people feel as a result of a system that is predatory. [1:08:00] As a result of a system that need not be there. [1:08:05] As a result of the system that can actually be changed if we just start to ask the deeper questions. [1:08:10] And we stop asking the superficial questions. [1:08:13] Again, and maybe the seventh time I want to repeat it to you, what are those deeper questions? [1:08:19] The deeper question is, why is power so concentrated in this country? [1:08:26] Why is it that a chief minister of a state has access to any decision in the entire state? [1:08:32] Why is it that our candidates are chosen in closed rooms? [1:08:37] Why is it that our people do not have access to the candidate decision? [1:08:44] Why is it that our policy is made in closed doors with five or six people? [1:08:47] Why is it that the perspective of one minister is completely different than the perspective of the gentleman who follows him? [1:09:00] What that is telling me is that we are not actually taking the voice of the people into policy. [1:09:06] We are not actually taking the voice of the people into the political system. [1:09:09] You know, you said about Am Admi Party and you said, well, you know, you criticize them and then you praise them. [1:09:15] Yes, you did. [1:09:16] I liked what I saw as far as the representation bringing in people. [1:09:23] I thought that was an interesting concept. [1:09:26] We have done that type of stuff in the youth congress. [1:09:30] That was interesting to me. [1:09:32] Is it bringing in people when you disregard the legal process and sit on a protest outside Ril Bhavad and then also that you force your decision and your minister is always right? [1:09:43] You avoided my question on the Am Admi Party. [1:09:46] I am glad you have come to it. [1:09:47] Tell me, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, were you angry with Sushir Kumar Shinde giving a face saver to Arvind Kejriva? [1:09:54] This was reported. [1:09:55] Before I wrap, I didn't mean to go back to it. [1:09:57] You brought it back. [1:09:58] The accusation is that you are still doing deals with the Am Admi Party. [1:10:01] What I liked about what I saw in the Am Admi was people coming into their system. [1:10:07] I like that. [1:10:08] But what's different then between us and them is that we have structure. [1:10:18] We develop processes. [1:10:20] That I didn't see much of. [1:10:22] But the main thing that… [1:10:25] No, were you upset with Mr. Sushir Kumar Shinde for giving the Delhi government a way out during their recent dharna? [1:10:31] Do you feel they should have been offered a face saver? [1:10:34] Do you feel they should have been ordered a face saver? [1:10:36] See, you're going back, you're going back, Arna. [1:10:38] To specifics. [1:10:39] No, it's not specifics. [1:10:41] It's frankly superficialities. [1:10:45] Whether… [1:10:46] How is that superficial? [1:10:47] It's completely… [1:10:48] This is the most relevant question. [1:10:49] No, no, it's not. [1:10:50] It's… [1:10:51] Whether Shinde… [1:10:52] Whether Mr. Shinde thought he should have apologized, shouldn't have apologized, did this, [1:10:56] did that is… [1:10:57] It's a fact. [1:10:58] It happened. [1:10:59] But the real issue, the real core issues in this election are… [1:11:04] Are we going to head towards democracy? [1:11:08] Towards deepening of democracy? [1:11:10] Towards opening up the system? [1:11:11] Or are we going to head towards concentration of power? [1:11:14] That's the first question. [1:11:15] The second question is, are we going to head towards empowerment of women? [1:11:18] Are we going to, you know, be a half strong nation? [1:11:25] Be a half proud nation? [1:11:27] Or are we going to actually empower women? [1:11:30] Those are the questions. [1:11:31] And those questions, you know, I mean, if you listen to the debate that's going on about [1:11:38] the elections, that's not the debate. [1:11:43] There's nothing in the debate about how we're going to move forward on the RTI paradigm, [1:11:49] how we're going to move forward on the corruption paradigm. [1:11:52] There's nothing in the debate about funding of political parties. [1:11:55] There's nothing in the debate about how we are going to choose candidates. [1:11:58] There's nothing in the debate about how policy should be made. [1:12:01] These are fundamental things. [1:12:02] These are the things that actually have an impact. [1:12:04] But you're avoiding the debate. [1:12:05] Will you have a debate with Narendra Modi if he agrees to a debate on any of these issues? [1:12:09] My question to you is direct. [1:12:10] If Narendra Modi says I'm willing to debate these issues… [1:12:12] I'm debating these issues by building structure in the Congress party that's going to transform… [1:12:17] Why should there not be a debate between the key political party candidates on all sides? [1:12:21] Let them talk. [1:12:22] Have a conversation. [1:12:23] You're more than welcome. [1:12:25] You have to start that debate. [1:12:26] As far as I'm concerned, the debate is taking place. [1:12:28] I'm willing to start the debate. [1:12:29] Are you ready for it? [1:12:30] Then I can go and ask Mr. Modi if he's ready for it. [1:12:32] You, I mean, you start the debate. [1:12:34] But the real issue is doing this stuff. [1:12:38] The real issue is doing this stuff in the party machine. [1:12:42] The only people who are doing that is us. [1:12:45] And frankly, we can stick for it. [1:12:48] I mean, we've just said that 15 constituencies in this country, in the Congress party, are [1:12:55] going to be chosen based on primaries. [1:12:57] Then said a word about it. [1:13:00] Well, of course, it's been mentioned everywhere. [1:13:03] It's not impressed to many people. [1:13:04] No, but the discussion hasn't gone there. [1:13:08] So, all I'm saying is that as youngsters, as serious politicians, one has to ask the fundamental [1:13:18] questions. [1:13:19] The fundamental questions in this election is, are we going to open up the system? [1:13:24] Are we going to close the system? [1:13:27] What is going to be the role of women in India going forward? [1:13:36] How are we going to get jobs for youngsters in this country? [1:13:40] You asked me a whole bunch of questions. [1:13:41] Yes, I did. [1:13:42] You didn't ask me once about how we're going to get jobs for youngsters in this country. [1:13:46] You didn't ask me once about what are we going to do for women in this country. [1:13:50] I'm going to tell you what I think. [1:13:52] But Mr. Rahul Gandhi, if I was to do that, I would listen to Rahul Gandhi's speeches. [1:13:56] I said, this is an interview. [1:13:57] I'm getting an opportunity to ask you specific questions. [1:13:59] You call my specific questions superficial. [1:14:01] I, with respect, disagree. [1:14:03] I feel my questions are specific. [1:14:06] And you need to answer the specific questions as specifically as possible. [1:14:10] You are more than welcome to ask these questions. [1:14:13] Right. [1:14:14] But let's also move the debate to a place where we're actually reaching towards fundamentals. [1:14:20] Right. [1:14:21] What should be the role of women in this country? [1:14:27] How can we enhance their role? [1:14:31] How do we bring jobs to millions of people? [1:14:35] Now, for example, every single person who comes to me from abroad, Japan, France, Germany, [1:14:48] America, every single person comes to me and says, listen, we need an alternative to Chinese [1:14:58] manufacturing. [1:14:59] We're very happy with what the Chinese give us, but we need another point. [1:15:01] Yes. [1:15:04] There's global energy that is basically saying, we want to move manufacturing to India. [1:15:11] The Congress party, UPA government has built the corridors, has built the north, south, [1:15:19] east, west corridor. [1:15:20] We've built three times the roads the NDA built. [1:15:25] Why are we not having a discussion about those? [1:15:29] Well, certainly, I mean, I can, I mean, probably the reason is, and I asked you the question [1:15:35] in the course of the interview. [1:15:36] I asked you, did UPA to let you down? [1:15:38] Because Mr. Rahul Gandhi, when people, when foreign investors want to invest in India, [1:15:42] they want a clean investing environment. [1:15:45] They do not want cloney capitalism. [1:15:47] They do not need scams. [1:15:48] They do not need ministers who behave that, you know, the government exists on their rent. [1:15:53] They do not need the A-Rajas, and they certainly do not need the A-Sail Max's scams. [1:15:58] The climate, Mr. Rahul Gandhi, has got vitiated with corruption. [1:16:02] And therefore, the answer to that is, and I really want you to address this very clearly. [1:16:06] Actually, did you, if you had spoken out earlier today, and let's bring this interview [1:16:12] to your finality. [1:16:13] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, if you had spoken on these issues earlier, perhaps today we would not [1:16:18] be in a situation where, no way, India would not be the preferred investment destination. [1:16:22] Actually, you get my point. [1:16:23] Yeah, I get your point. [1:16:24] Actually, the RTI, right, has basically changed the game in India. [1:16:37] What it has done is it has opened up the structures. [1:16:42] And what used to be hidden can no longer be hidden. [1:16:46] That's the bottom line. [1:16:47] The bottom line is that large numbers of corruption issues that were hidden, that nobody would [1:16:56] find out about, came out because of the RTI. [1:17:00] We did that. [1:17:01] Now, please go to our opposition states. [1:17:04] Please go to the states and ask them, do they have the RTI commissioners? [1:17:08] The issue here is very simple. [1:17:11] The issue is, do you want an open system? [1:17:14] Do you want a system where these things are out in the open? [1:17:17] Or do you want a closed system where these things are hidden? [1:17:21] I think we should have a debate, Mr. Gandhi. [1:17:23] No, I'm... [1:17:24] I think we should have a debate on this. [1:17:25] The debate is taken place right now. [1:17:27] The debate has to take place between the individuals. [1:17:29] My final question, Mr. Gandhi, will you be open to a debate between key candidates or representatives [1:17:35] of the major parties? [1:17:36] Will you participate in such a debate if there were to be won? [1:17:38] There is a national debate taking place right now. [1:17:43] The national debate that is taking place right now is the following. [1:17:46] There is the Congress party that believes in openness, that believes in RTI, that believes in [1:17:53] Panchayati Raj, that believes in giving people power. [1:17:56] And there is our opposition that believes in concentrating power. [1:18:01] That's the debate that's taking place. [1:18:05] That's what the election is about. [1:18:06] We fundamentally believe, and the Congress party has always believed, that this country [1:18:13] has to be run by its people. [1:18:17] Can you take that to this election? [1:18:19] Or have you lost the election before it's begun? [1:18:21] Most of the surveys are saying the Congress party will be reduced to its lowest ever tally. [1:18:25] What would you say to that, Mr. Gandhi? [1:18:27] This country has always been run, has always been run successfully, [1:18:33] when large numbers of people were involved in its decision making. [1:18:38] If you look at, historically, if you look at when this country has done well, [1:18:41] it has done well when we've involved. [1:18:44] You know what Modi says to that? [1:18:45] Modi says you gave them 60 years, you give me 60 months. [1:18:49] I want you to respond to that before. [1:18:51] He says you gave the Congress party 60 years, you give me 60 months. [1:18:54] He said that in UPI, when he spoke in Gorakhpur recently. [1:18:57] I want your response to that. [1:18:59] My response is that over the last 10 years, we gave the fastest economic growth this country's ever had. [1:19:04] My response is that we did more for opening up the system in this country than any government before us. [1:19:10] My response is that we have completely changed the paradigm with our rights-based development model. [1:19:18] We have given Manrega, which has transformed the rural economy. [1:19:23] We have carried out, we are talking about Aadhaar, which is going to directly give money to people. [1:19:29] So to just brush aside the idea that the Congress party has been involved, we are growing at the rate at which we are going, growing because of the Congress party. [1:19:39] Are you battle ready? [1:19:40] Battle ready, of course. [1:19:43] We are going to win. [1:19:44] Mr. Rahul Gandhi, thank you very much for talking to me and for taking specific questions from me. [1:19:51] Thank you. [1:19:52] Frankly speaking, thank you. [1:19:53] Thank you. [1:19:54] Thank you.