Extended interview: JD Vance

[0:10] Why did you decide to write such a personal book? [0:14] Yeah, so I actually started writing the book back in 2017. [0:18] So Hillbilly Elegy had come out. I was talking with the publisher about what I was most interested [0:23] in and I kept coming back to this topic of religion because as I write in the book, [0:27] there was a sort of religious journey that was going on very personally at the time. [0:32] And I think as I kept on writing, I would say the book is somewhat similar to Hillbilly Elegy. [0:40] There were these kind of bigger themes about religion and public life and what it means to be a Christian and politics. [0:46] But like fundamentally, it became a more and more personal book because I was writing a lot about my own spiritual journey. [0:54] And, you know, I think at some level you write a book because you want something, [0:59] you have something to say and you want to say it. [1:01] And for me, it took me almost 10 years to actually get all this out and get it to a place where I wanted to publish it. [1:07] But, you know, I thought, number one, this is one man's religious journey. [1:11] And maybe it will be helpful to some other people who are going through some similar things. [1:15] And number two, maybe it will say something interesting about the role of Christianity [1:19] and American public life that people will pick up on. [1:22] And both of those things were valuable to me. So I put it on paper and here it is. [1:25] It's been quite a drifting journey for you when it comes to your own personal experience. [1:30] You were raised in a sort of evangelical culture, then become somewhat agnostic, [1:37] a little bit wayward, as you described yourself. [1:39] Yeah. [1:39] And then you embrace the Catholic Church. Why? [1:42] Well, if you go back, I was raised in an evangelical tradition that in a lot of ways I really loved. [1:48] I mean, there were two things that I took from that evangelical faith. [1:51] Number one is this incredible generosity of spirit. [1:54] You're always willing to find people who are willing to lend a helping hand in the churches that I grew up. [2:00] And we bounced around in a lot of different churches that I write about when I grew up. [2:03] But the second thing is there was this incredible spirit of welcomingness. [2:07] If you walked into an evangelical church in southwestern Ohio or eastern Kentucky, [2:12] you know, everybody would treat you like family even if they had never seen you before. [2:16] And I really loved that. And that's one of the things that I take from my own sort of religious [2:21] upbringing that I try to apply as much today. So I drift away from that faith. I don't think that I was [2:26] properly rooted. I started to see myself as too smart, maybe too high minded. I was going to make [2:33] decisions based on rationality and science and not on this religious mumbo jumbo. And that's kind of [2:39] the trajectory that I went in. And then as I started to think to myself, maybe there is some real truth [2:45] to these Christian ideas that I grew up with. I was just incredibly attracted to the tradition [2:53] of the church that I ultimately selected. And I felt in a lot of ways, you know, in my late twenties, [3:01] my early thirties, things are constantly changing. Social media is changing how we communicate with [3:06] each other. You know, you go to one church and it's one thing. You go to another church and it's [3:11] something different. I loved the thing about Catholicism where it felt rooted, that if I went [3:17] to my home parish in Cincinnati, it was actually pretty similar, similar church service. Even if I [3:23] went to a foreign country and I didn't understand the language, I kind of knew what was going on. [3:27] And I liked that feeling of rootedness. But I also think it's possible, Bob, to sort of overthink or [3:33] over-intellectualize this stuff. Fundamentally, when I start thinking to myself, maybe I do believe [3:40] that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Maybe I do believe in the core tenets of the Christian faith. [3:44] A lot of the people who are encouraging me on that journey, my Uncle Dan, I talk about our friend Sam [3:50] in the book, a lot of them were Catholic and they took me to Catholic churches and I felt at home there. [3:55] And eventually I converted. And so, well, I think it's always possible to, you know, we're human beings. [4:01] We're fundamentally always thinking about these things, always analyzing these things. [4:05] But I think for me, it was just God put a lot of people in my path who were very good Christians [4:09] and ended up being Catholics. And that's where I became, that's where I found a home. [4:14] And some of your journey seems to be almost a reaction to your dissatisfaction [4:20] with modern life, with the way your life was going. You write about, quote, [4:24] the rat race of meritocracy. You were climbing this ladder, but you somehow didn't feel fulfilled. [4:31] Yeah, that's exactly right. In fact, I think that was the fundamental insight [4:35] that led me to think, well, maybe Christianity has something going for it. Because you think [4:39] about this, Bob, in 2013, 2014, I'm winning every race that our culture is telling us to win. [4:46] Yeah, law school, serving the Marine Corps. [4:47] I've gone to law school. I've got a lot of money. I've got a prestigious job. I've got all these things [4:53] that the culture tells me that I want. But I was not particularly happy. And more importantly, [4:59] I was thinking, I'm not a particularly good person right now. I'm way too focused on what [5:04] people think about me, on the prestige of my job, on how much money I make. And that's not good. And [5:10] I wasn't calling myself a Christian then, but I had enough of a Christian rootedness where I recognized [5:15] this is not good. You've got to be focused on other things. You know, I'd fallen in love with [5:19] this girl who is now my wife. We were thinking about having a family together. And you start asking [5:24] yourself, how do I be a good husband? How do I be a good provider? How do I be good at the things [5:29] that actually matter? And the more that I asked those questions, the more that I felt like Christianity [5:34] had the best answers. And it's interesting, that really is how it started for me. I didn't have a [5:38] conversion on the road to Damascus, but I started to see these sort of rays of sunshine, these evidences [5:45] of truth in Christian teaching. And then I started thinking to myself, well, if the Christians are right about [5:51] the importance of virtue and they're right about the importance of being a good father, [5:55] as opposed to how much money you make, and they're right about the importance of being a good husband, [5:59] as opposed to how prestigious your job is, then maybe they're right about these more fundamental [6:03] questions. Maybe it all comes from a place. And that really is what fundamentally got me on the pathway [6:09] to where I, you know, became a Christian. You write extensively about your Catholic faith. [6:15] Pope Leo, the new leader of the Catholic Church, just issued his first major statement [6:20] about human dignity and protecting it in the age of AI. When you read that statement, [6:26] do you share his alarm about what's happening with AI and about humanity being protected as this [6:33] all moves forward? I do. I mean, I think that he's asking all the right questions, which is [6:39] any technology this transformative, it changes a lot. Again, that goes back to my point about things [6:45] constantly changing. And the church is this place of stability. It changes how we interact with one [6:51] another. I mean, I've done events on college campuses where kids come up and tell me that the [6:57] way that they're dating these days is they're putting their chat conversations into ChatGBT and having ChatGBT [7:05] tell them how to interact with one another. Like that is so, I mean, I'm 41 years old. It makes me feel like [7:10] an old man. That's so bizarre. But that's just a fundamental change in how humans will interact [7:16] with each other. And there are going to be a million more like that that come from artificial [7:20] intelligence. It's going to change the labor market. It's going to change a lot beyond that. [7:24] And I think it's very important for leaders of the Christian community to stand up and say, [7:29] no, no, no, humans are still the most important thing. Human dignity is still the most important [7:34] thing. Technologies come and go, but we have to marshal this technology to serve humanity, [7:41] not make humanity slaves to this new artificial intelligence. And so I did, I read it. I thought [7:46] it was very interesting. You know, Bob, one of the things I've always been fascinated by, [7:50] I write in the book, the Pope who was the leader of Catholics during the industrial age, [7:58] Pope Leo XIII wrote this encyclical that was very influential on my thinking, [8:03] well before I ever called myself even a Christian again, much less a Catholic, [8:07] this idea that we have to make technology subservient to human dignity and not the other way around. [8:14] That theme is very much in Leo XIII's encyclical back in the late 1800s. And when Leo XIV chose that [8:23] name, I immediately thought to myself, this is a guy who recognizes that he has to apply 2,000-year-old [8:30] Christian concepts to something very new, very exciting in a lot of ways. I think there's a lot [8:35] of promise. I think AI could cure diseases that were previously incurable, but there are some real [8:40] issues, and we always have to make sure that any technology serves humanity. When I was reading this [8:45] book, I would see you talking about Pope Leo XIII, the Catholic philosopher René Girard, and then I'll see [8:52] you out at a rally or on some talk show being very political. It's like, both things are J.D. Vance, [8:57] both things are at once who you are? Yeah, of course. I mean, I think like any human being, [9:03] you have moments when you're happy, you have moments when you're sad, you have moments when [9:07] you're reflective, you have moments when you're a little bit more fired up. And I think all of that [9:13] is true of, I would say, most human beings, and it's certainly true of me. You know, I think that one [9:19] of the challenges, and I write about this a little bit in the book, but one of the fundamental challenges [9:24] of my life is that I really do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that there are all of these [9:31] moral truths that flow from it. Well, how do you apply those moral truths in a very messy world where [9:37] there are a lot of trade-offs, there are a lot of competing factors? And that's a big part of what [9:42] you have to do as a political leader in a, well, that's what you do as a political leader while also [9:49] keeping true to your faith and trying to apply it in the modern world. So absolutely, both of [9:55] those parts, I think, are part of being a political leader in modern America. I know you have called [10:00] this the most boring topic, but a lot of people don't know you as well as all the Washington [10:06] insiders. Okay. So genuinely, people are curious about your answer to this question. Sure. After the [10:14] midterm elections, we know you're focused on the midterm elections now, will you and your family [10:19] make a decision about whether you will seek the Republican nomination? Well, we certainly have [10:25] to make a decision about something, because I have this job and I'm blessed to have this job, [10:29] honored to have this job until January 20th of 2029. And Usha and I will absolutely sit down and [10:35] talk about what comes next for our family. But, you know, I think people sort of assume that we, [10:41] you know, I'm sitting around figuring out whether I'm going to run for president, whether I'm not going [10:46] to run for president. I really, the way that I make decisions is I try not to make them until I [10:51] absolutely must. And right now, I'm doing a really good job, I think, for the American people. [10:57] I'm trying to do a great job for the American people. And that's what I'm focused on. And I [11:02] really don't ever want my thought about a future job, whether it's president or anything else, [11:09] to make me a worse vice president. And the way to do that is to keep my attention on the job that I [11:13] have right now. And just final things. What's your gut at this point, knowing it's early? [11:19] Do you lean toward running or not? I guess it's too early. You haven't made the decision. [11:24] Uh, it's, it's, it's again, I, Bob, here's, here's why I take this perspective. You just, [11:30] let me just say this again. The reason I take this perspective is because when I make a decision, [11:38] what am I thinking about? Am I thinking about what's good for my political future three years down [11:43] the road? Or am I thinking about what's good for the American people right now? You write a lot about [11:47] these themes in the book. To do this job the right way, [11:49] you have to be thinking about what's good right now. I can't be a crappy vice president because [11:55] I'm so worried about my political future. I just got to do a good job right now. The politics will [12:00] take care of itself. At some point, you have to make a decision though. I will. Yeah. At some point, [12:04] you'll have to make a decision, but not yet. This conversation airs on June 14th. The president [12:10] turns 80 years old, same day as this broadcast. You see him every day, almost every day. He's 80 years [12:18] old, almost as we talk right now. People talk about president's health going back to the founding [12:24] of the country. How do you see it knowing you're not a medical professional? How do you see his [12:28] health, his energy at this age? Yeah. So first of all, if this is airing on June 14th, the most [12:34] important day today is not the president's birthday. It's happy anniversary to my lovely wife. So this is [12:39] our, I guess, 12th wedding anniversary. But my sense of the president's health is that it's off the [12:47] charts good. His focus, his energy, his constant grinding. I mean, the presidency is a crazy job. [12:56] You constantly have more than a dozen cabinet secretaries. You have every particular crisis [13:02] that comes up. They're coming to you at all hours of the night. And the joke that I have with Scott [13:06] was sent our treasury secretary is, you know, we get a call at 2.30 in the morning and it's the [13:10] president. And he's like, were you awake? And it's like, yes, sir. I'm always awake at 2.30. [13:16] And that's been my sense of the president is that he's constantly going. I think that he feels a [13:22] sense of, you know, if you're lucky, you get eight years in that job. He's one of the lucky ones. But eight [13:27] years is not that long. And he's trying to make every single day count. So he's constantly pushing [13:33] everybody to do as much as possible. So I think he's in great health. I think, you know, you see [13:39] people, the media constantly talking about that. I guess this is just something the media is going [13:43] to talk about. But from what I've seen, I've literally never once thought to myself, [13:47] he doesn't have the stamina or the energy to do this job. If anything, not once, if anything, [13:52] he's got more stamina and energy than a lot of people in the cabinet who are 30 years his junior. [13:57] And I think that's, that's a good thing because you want a president who is able to do that grind [14:01] every single day.