Extended interview: Feminism then and now

[0:10] Letty, let's start with you. Before the ERA passed, what was your life like? [0:17] I was a college graduate. I worked on my own in New York, lived by my own in the village, [0:22] got married, had three children. But in 1970, I discovered feminism or had my consciousness raised. [0:30] However, I was also trying to conform to the most conventional stereotypes. [0:36] I baked bread so I could make stuffing for my turkey. I decorated. I had three children. [0:42] I was very careful about what I dressed them in. I carved pumpkins with them. But I had also [0:48] a career. My career was in book publishing before I published my first book in 1970. [0:54] Could you get a credit card? [0:56] Absolutely not, unless I brought my husband along to sign for it. [0:59] Could you get a mortgage? [1:01] I could not get a mortgage unless I brought my husband or father to sign for it. [1:05] So what turned you into a feminist? [1:08] What turned me into a feminist was publishing my first book, [1:11] How to Make it in a Man's World, which was not a feminist book. I was unenlightened. I only was [1:16] reporting on my own life and what the struggle was for me. And I functioned well because I was young [1:23] and cute. And they'd expected nothing from somebody who looked like me. And I did do very, very well. [1:29] And being young and cute was a big factor. [1:32] Big factor. And I kind of played to it. I wore mini skirts, you know. You did a charade as a woman. [1:40] You had to use your, quote, femininity, which was already such a stereotype that very often it had [1:46] nothing to do with you, but that was who you had to present. And you also became as demanding as you [1:54] possibly could be of yourself in the work situation. I was supporting myself. [1:59] When you were starting out, what were your expectations as a young woman in terms of career, [2:08] financial independence, importance in the work world? [2:13] What I hoped I would get was a husband and a set of sterling silver, quite frankly, [2:19] because that's what all my girlfriends were getting. Their mommas were going shopping with [2:23] them and all of that. I saw what was expected. And in fact, I got married four years later and my [2:31] husband was fine with me working. I loved my job. So I'd never confronted the moment when, [2:36] wait a minute, you know, why are you so high, such a high powered women? It's really annoying. [2:42] Until I gave birth to the twins. And then I did what I thought I was expected to do. I quit my job [2:49] and I had a farewell party and I stayed home for six months with two babies and I didn't have enough [2:55] to do. So I asked my boss if I could come back and he told me he had never filled the job because [3:01] he knew I would. So my husband and I would carry this box and the two babies were in it and I would [3:06] put them under my desk because sometimes my child care arrangement had fallen through. But that was [3:14] one of the images that stayed in my mind when the feminist movement started to break through my [3:20] awareness. I had gotten a lot of breaks and then suddenly I'm reading about the rest of women and how [3:25] they were getting 59 cents on the dollar. And I suddenly wondered, well, what, what am I getting [3:31] on the dollar? You know, and started being a little bit troubled by all that. In 1971, I had started a [3:39] column in the New York, in the Ladies Home Journal, their first feminist column called The Working Woman. [3:46] Betty Friedan, of all people, calls me on the phone and asks if I'll go and help found the National [3:52] Women's Political Caucus. So in July 1971, I did. I went down with her. I met Gloria Steinem. [3:59] We all worked on the statement of purpose together. And at the end of that, Gloria said, [4:03] would you like to come back to New York and help a little group of us start Ms. [4:08] When did you begin considering yourself and understanding yourself to be a feminist? [4:16] It took a while to translate into my actually owning the label. And then I really [4:21] owned it big time. It didn't come naturally because it was like a fish doesn't know it's, [4:27] the water it's swimming in. You know, we had to literally tune ourselves into what we had taken [4:33] for granted as a kind of either low, low grade oppression or real hostility and discomfort and [4:42] lack of safety. Being afraid to, you know, walk on the streets. You know, it used to be, [4:49] if you remember, there was a take back the night movement because we didn't own the night. [4:54] If we went out at night, we were just fair game. [4:57] How much hostility did you encounter in the workplace and just out and about in society? [5:04] The sex discrimination really hit me hard when I became an executive. And I would walk into a room [5:11] for a meeting that I was going to run and somebody would ask me to go get the coffee, [5:15] literally, or talk over me until they figured out who I was. You know, an elevator with a man was [5:23] in a dangerous place because they could do anything to you. And there was no Violence Against Women Act. [5:28] There was no Anti-Discrimination Act in the 1960s or early 60s. So I was attacked in elevators. And I was, [5:37] when I go to a book, a publishing conference in Washington, D.C., I was afraid to go to my room [5:43] because the hotel halls were, you know, hazardous. [5:47] Your understanding of what the ERA was meant to achieve, what was that? [5:53] It wasn't about equality for women. It was about equality. It was about, it was an amendment [6:01] to add to the United States equality that refused to accept discrimination based on sex. [6:08] Did you see it? [6:09] It's got 24 words in it. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged on the [6:15] basis of sex. It doesn't say for women. So let me say, immediately we were very glad to be able to [6:23] support men, for example, who got the raw deal in alimony, in custody rights. [6:29] Were you naive, do you think, in what you thought would happen? [6:37] I think I was totally naive about the time it would take to prove to this country that equality didn't exist. [6:46] Did you see the ERA as an enforcement mechanism or a kind of a manifesto? [6:55] I think it was a manifesto in the sense that it was a wake-up call that our constitution [7:01] really had neglected women, not just neglected. Our founders consciously chose not to include women. [7:09] Abigail Adams, John Adams' wife, he was a founder, obviously, wrote a famous letter, [7:15] remember the ladies, when you're writing this document, the Declaration of Independence [7:20] and eventually the Constitution of the United States. And there's evidence they chose not to. [7:27] So this was a failure of the promise of democracy. And we thought once it was clarified, [7:34] it would be sort of, click, I get it. And things would be fixed. [7:38] There were people who argued, well, you don't need the Equal Rights Amendment because, look, [7:46] there's legislation, there are court cases. [7:48] Right. Yeah. The 1963 Equal Opportunity Act, that's a good example. 1963, [7:56] yet 59 cents on the dollar, right? Today, 81 cents on the dollar. So we're talking, what, 60-something [8:09] years and we're only up to 81 cents? It's gone down 80 points. [8:12] Oh, you see, you're ahead of me. In 2024. [8:15] You're ahead of me. Yeah. So we're going backwards. And laws are laws. Then they go to the Supreme Court [8:22] when they're being disputed. And the Supreme Court makes a judgment based on their constitutionality. [8:29] And we're not in it. Define feminism as you inherited the mantle. [8:36] Equal opportunity for everyone. That's all it meant. It didn't mean women are better. It didn't mean men [8:40] are bad. It didn't mean that we have to burn it down. Although I guess there were some things my mom [8:47] would like to have burned down. It just meant everybody deserves the same chances. [8:53] Did it ever mean to you that you could only be a professional at the expense of being a wife and [9:00] mother or someone who was more traditional in her personal life? [9:05] It meant to me every option was available and that it was possible to have it all. I mean, [9:10] there really was this sense that it was possible to have both a satisfying career and a satisfying and [9:17] very rich and committed home life in which you were present. Not every job allows for that. And I came to [9:22] realize that over time. Flexibility is a luxury. One thing that really became clear to me was that [9:28] it was important to have my own life and my own thing beyond my children. That's not true for every [9:34] woman. But it was for me in the sense that my kids actually, I think, took pride in my being a [9:39] professional. I was able to share my life with them to some degree. As a writer, I was able to work with [9:44] them on their writing and that was great. And there was a time where I said, I want to volunteer in [9:50] their schools. I was showing up at lunchtime to be like a proctor and my kids were like, what are you [9:55] doing here? Why are you here during our lunch day? I mean, that was their day at school. They were happy [10:00] to see me at the end of the day. And I also feel like your kids grow up and I'm very aware that there [10:07] are a lot of women I know who dropped out of the workplace and then getting back in was difficult [10:11] later. And so I was grateful to have kind of just kept the ground running under me [10:17] professionally so that when they started to have their own lives and they were no longer my [10:21] main focus, I had something that was all mine and something that gave me a sense of self and [10:27] identity beyond them. Did you feel that you were being paid comparably to men in your profession? [10:35] I've always wondered about that because salaries are still really kept private and you really don't [10:41] know what your peers are earning. I'm not great about asking for more. And I still feel as if [10:46] there are ways in which that really plagues women. I can speak for myself, but I think it's true of [10:52] other women too, of sort of taking business personally, whereas men don't. They can just have the harder [10:57] conversations without kind of getting hurt or getting nervous, feeling on the line. That has not been my [11:04] experience. It's very difficult for me to say I deserve more. Did you come of age believing that you had to [11:10] fight to break down barriers? I kind of didn't. I have to say that I realized the fight was ongoing [11:17] and there was a distance left to go, but I really was in that smooth spot of like they had greased the [11:23] wheels and I was riding them. Now, when you were raising Maya, what were the lessons about women's [11:33] rights and women's situation that you tried to instill in her or to pass on to her? I didn't have to [11:40] articulate it in a very kind of conscious way. I feel like she was going to pick up the messages [11:45] based on how we lived. She saw me as a professional person who went to work every day and came home to [11:51] her. I was also in a marriage with a man who was intent upon really very consciously having a 50-50 [11:58] division of things. Did you ever have any kind of advice from a woman's point of view for Maya? [12:05] I have tried to make it clear to her that she can choose any path. She can be very committed to work [12:14] and excited about that. I think that maybe one member of a couple sometimes needs to be more [12:20] flexible than another for it to work. I think it's tough if you have two hard-driving professionals [12:25] with less flexible schedules to be as around for your kids as you might want to. So it could be the man [12:31] who's more primary at home. It could be the woman. But I kind of feel like something's got to give. [12:35] When you think of the word feminist, what's your definition of feminist? And are you one? [12:41] Yeah. Yes, I am a feminist. I think when I grew up, I thought more about feminist than feminism. [12:48] And I think that maybe even more than in your generation, there is a pretty widespread negative [12:57] perception of feminists as angry. Wanting to burn it all down and wanting to get angry and burn their [13:07] bras. That is still a perception that I think that really exists. And I think I sort of rejected that [13:13] because I was just like, you know, that's not me. I'm not angry. I'm happy. I'm like, I'm all good. [13:22] You know, even like, you know, reading up on things this week and experiencing my grandma's work and [13:29] everything. Like, I think this idea of equality is exactly right. Like, feminism for the woman was [13:39] something that I was kind of like, you know, I don't want to be seen as special or different [13:43] than my peers. I want to be just Maya for her merit and her brain and her, you know, accolades [13:52] and not Maya for the fact that she's a female. Were you aware of the ERA? Did you pay attention to [14:02] the ERA? Did you think it had a potential role in your life? No, not at all. And finding out that [14:09] actually it's not written into the constitution that women, you know, it's, there's been laws that [14:13] have been passed, but you know, an executive order can seriously challenge something like that. [14:19] And what happened when you came to that realization? I came to this show. I was like, [14:25] I'll do it. I'm gonna, you know, I'd like to, I'd like, I mean, that's crazy. I think that equality [14:31] should be written into the constitution. Of course, of course. And when I studied the opposition to it [14:40] and I watched, you know, the Good Morning America interview with Phyllis Schlafly and Betty Friedan [14:46] and I, and I was like, you know, I'm really curious, like who is, what is the arguments against this? [14:51] Why are people saying that this might be problematic? And it was literally, you know, arguments by women, [14:59] from what I experienced in my, you know, little study session, was we actually want more than [15:07] equality, right? Like we want, we feel like we're equal. You know, that's what, that's what she was [15:12] saying. I'm all good. I went to law school and I am in law school right now. And, but also like, [15:18] I don't want to be drafted. And I don't want to, I don't want my, you know, homemaking ability to be [15:24] taken away or I don't want to subscribe to the same laws and needs as men. And I was like, you know, [15:30] you should, because we should be equal. So it doesn't bother you that so, [15:34] supposed protections for women and a traditional way of life might be affected? [15:41] Well, I don't think it would. I don't think it would be. Why would it be affected? I actually, [15:46] I don't, I really tried to understand this and I feel like something like equality gives you the right [15:52] to choose. Do you have a sense that you take for granted a feeling of comfort as a woman in today's [16:01] society and in today's work world? I think, yeah, I think people take for granted things [16:06] that they didn't have to struggle for. I am a, you know, white woman in New York City. [16:12] And there are very, I think people have different experiences depending on where they grow up and [16:20] who their parents are and what their socioeconomic status is and the opportunities they were given. [16:25] Have you experienced any kind of sexism or something that the little antenna go up and say, [16:34] I'm being discriminated against in some way? [16:36] No, I have, I have not felt discriminated against. [16:40] Well, about your work, you looked at the organization chart and we looked at the pictures [16:44] of all the people and their titles. And there is a vast difference in the, the number of women [16:50] who hold key roles. Most of the women are in lower level positions. [16:56] Yes. [16:56] That struck me as blatant. [16:59] Yeah. [17:00] But generally true. [17:01] Especially in finance. [17:02] Okay, so I work, I, okay, there. I work in finance. You're right. Like I've never worked for [17:07] a company with a CEO that was a woman and I don't know that many. But my hope and my expectation, [17:14] frankly, is that will change. And that will change because, you know, [17:20] the younger generations that like I am in, um, want that and knew that they could want that, [17:28] most importantly. And the pad, the doors were broken down for them to go after it. [17:33] Do you want something different, you think, than what your mother wanted [17:37] when she was starting out and your grandmother fought for? [17:40] I want what my mom had. I really do. Like she's at the top of her field right now. [17:44] I want to do that too. [17:46] Leti, what do you think went wrong in the ratification of the ERA? [17:51] There was an enormous system that was protecting turf. [17:55] And the idea that it's some kind of zero-sum game where if you give women sort of more equality [18:02] or opportunity, you're taking something from men. [18:04] Do you think, all of you, um, the perception that feminists were strident, that they were loud, [18:13] that they burned their bras, that they were pushy, that, that [18:17] affected the inability of the ERA to be ratified within the time limit? [18:24] What I've realized is sometimes it feels like, oh, do we have to be this loud? And then you realize [18:30] change doesn't happen otherwise. [18:31] Right. [18:32] It's those people who are the mosquitoes on these issues that, um, you know, they finally start to [18:40] make, to shift. It is these sort of annoyingly loud people taking the megaphone that, you know, [18:46] finally forces a culture to, to take notice. And the other thing I would say is there's a degree [18:52] of, like, instinctive resistance that women have to overcome. If you are too aggressive and ambitious [18:59] and maybe want to be a CEO, they're, you're often considered the bitch, you know. There's a real sense [19:04] of, like, even women taking down women for, you know, wanting to necessarily get ahead or maybe being [19:11] kind of a hard ass in the workplace. Um, there's a lot working against women in that, you know, we can't [19:16] even name. Um, and I think that, that kind of, you know, bubbles up inside all of us. And, and I [19:22] think that's a huge obstacle that it's, it's very hard to isolate and it's very hard to, to combat. [19:27] Well, I have to say that I had dinner with my college roommates last night, two of them. [19:31] And one of them made this point, which is that men are very happy to have young women around and [19:35] help them out until just a minute, until they start to get to be their peers and actually compete with [19:40] them. Thank you. And then that attitude might change. I had male mentors every single step of the [19:46] way in the 1960s. And, um, when I became vice president of a company, a lot of attitudes changed, [19:56] but they do love, they love helping the girls, helping the girls, especially if they're young [20:02] and pretty. Pretty. So reductive. It's not reductive because, you know, suddenly, [20:07] why does it suddenly change? Why does it suddenly change that we're a threat? [20:11] Right. How much backsliding in terms of where the world of women is now and where it's going? [20:19] I was born under FDR and I don't want to die under a regime like the one that's ruling this nation [20:27] right now. But the fact that as one woman said, when she last held up a placard during a recent pro-choice [20:36] march, she said, I can't believe I have to do this all over again. Older women cannot believe that [20:44] what we believed we had accomplished can be eroded so easily. And that's why the pro-ERA people are not [20:51] giving up. Because if it isn't in the Constitution, for example, the right to vote, you need a separate [20:58] amendment. For instance, the 19th that got us the right to vote. And we need equality to be, [21:04] you know, baked in to who America is. And right now it's being baked out. We've been scrubbed out of [21:13] the Smithsonian. You know, women who were airline pilots during the war, women who discovered certain [21:20] things in science, scrubbed out. There's no interest now in reifying and celebrating the accomplishments of [21:28] women or people of color. So I am so grateful to any young person who's out in the streets now, [21:35] who's lobbying legislatures, who's organizing, who is running for office. I'm 87. And I'm not going to [21:45] start all over again. I'm going to do what I can. But I'm not going to have the energy or the time to do [21:51] this all over again. I'm also going to not have the spirit to start from so far back, just from so [22:01] far back, when I really, I believe this country was capable of better. But when you look at us, [22:09] like, aren't you like we've come so far? Yeah. When I look at the you, that's you, [22:13] and some of your cohort. Yes, I am counting on them. I'm counting on them.