Estranged Husband Trial — FL v Timothy Kramer — Defendant’s Full Testimony

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Mr Benson, your honor, the defense close Timothy Kramer. [00:00:03] Speaker 2: All right, Mr. Kramer, if you'll come over here, please, sir. What'd you step forward? Mr. Kramer, raise your right hand for me, you saw me swear I'll affirm the testimony you give as the truth, so help me get out. Yes, Your Honor. All right, thank you, sir. Just have a seat in the chair, if you will. Slide up to the microphone and adjust me if you need to. The most important thing is to keep your voice up so everybody can hear you, okay? You can go ahead and move that down a little bit. There you go. Okay? Yes, Your Honor. All right, Mr. Benson, your witness. [00:00:56] Speaker 1: Mr. Kramer, can you hear me all right? Yes, sir. If, for whatever reason, while we're talking or you're speaking with Ms. Shea, you can't hear and the device goes out, please let us know. Yes, Your Honor, sir. Everyone knows by now, but could you please state your name for the record? Timothy Joseph Kramer. Could you please tell the jurors when you were born? Eight, six, 1972. [00:01:18] Speaker 3: How old are you now? Two days, I'll be 54. Where were you born? Dubuque, Iowa. [00:01:22] Speaker ?: How long did you live in Iowa? [00:01:23] Speaker 3: Roughly in town was about almost 15. We've heard about Dolores throughout this case. [00:01:26] Speaker 1: Do you have other siblings? Yes, Your Honor. I'm not the judge. I'm sorry. That's okay, are you a little nervous? [00:01:31] Speaker ?: It's okay. How many other siblings did you grow up with? In total, I had three brothers and two sisters. [00:01:31] Speaker 1: Do you have all of them still? No, sir. was about almost 15. We've heard about Dolores throughout this case. Do you have other siblings? Yes, Your Honor. I'm not the judge. I'm sorry. That's okay. Are you a little nervous? It's okay. How many other siblings did you grow up with? In total, I had three brothers and two sisters. [00:01:57] Speaker 3: Do you have all of them still? No, sir. Who's left? I have two sisters. Is that Dolores? Dolores and then Jeannie. Where does Jeannie live? [00:02:12] Speaker 1: Iowa somewhere. At some point, did you move to Florida? Yes, sir. Where did you move? Tampa. [00:02:23] Speaker 3: Why did you move? Mom got a job as a chef. Who's your mom? Sandra Kramer. Who's your dad? Richard Kramer. Are they still alive? No, sir. [00:02:36] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about school. When you lived in Iowa, is that where you did your elementary school? Yes, sir. How far did you go in school? To eighth grade, sir. Did you ever obtain your GED? No, sir. Do you have any children? Yes, sir. Let's talk about your work history. After eighth grade, did you start working? Yes, sir. Where did you work? Save-A-Lot. What is Save-A-Lot? It's a retail grocery store. Where was that? In the Tampa area. What did you do there? Stocking. How long did you work for Save-A-Lot? [00:03:26] Speaker 3: So long ago, I couldn't roughly remember how long. That's okay. Where did you work after Save-A-Lot? [00:03:32] Speaker 1: Walmart. Where was that? Walmart on Creighton. Is that in Tampa or is that somewhere else? That's in Pensacola, sir. When did you move to Pensacola? [00:03:51] Speaker 3: Roughly can't remember how long it's been, sir. How long did you work at Walmart? Almost 20 years. What did you do at Walmart? Stocking. And I got promoted to inventory manager. And after that, I got support promoted to like, they call it, used to call it support manager. [00:04:16] Speaker 1: Then we heard that you most recently worked at PetSmart. When did you start working there? [00:04:23] Speaker 3: Probably 22, somewhere around there. I was there two years. What did you do at PetSmart? Stocking. [00:04:35] Speaker 1: Let's shift gears now and talk a little bit about your physicality. How tall are you? 555. At the time that this incident occurred, approximately how much did you weigh? Approximately 155. Do you have any physical issues? Yes, sir. [00:05:00] Speaker 3: Could you tell the jury a little bit about that? I've had multiple knee surgeries. I don't know how many. I lost count. I've had a knee replacement on the left knee. I've had several injections in the back. Because I've had backfire, back injuries. And I have nerve damage in the shoulders. [00:05:24] Speaker 1: We heard the crime scene technicians testify about medications that were recovered in the home on Hillcrest, as well as at your sister's apartment in Milton. [00:05:37] Speaker 3: What prescription medications were you taking? I was taking THC for pain and sleep. And I was taking other medications for nerve damage, the gavapentin. And I was taking allergy medicine, vitamins. I was taking cholesterol medicine. I was taking blood pressure medicine. I was taking other over-the-counter sleep aids to try to get sleep. Melatonin, Z-Quil. And I also had some drops with the THC-12 in them that I was [00:06:19] Speaker 1: taking for sleep also. Did you have a prescription for the THC? Yes, sir. We saw some photographs from the apartment in Milton. You had your wife's THC products with you. Could you explain why? [00:06:37] Speaker 3: Whenever my prescription ran out, we didn't have the money to renew it. We used hers. And when hers ran out, I had got mine back in time. And then we would use mine, so we alternated. [00:06:48] Speaker 1: So you and Rosa shared? Yes, sir. Let's shift gears now and talk about you and Rosa. When did you first [00:06:58] Speaker 3: meet her? I first met her at the Walmart that I worked at. Was she shopping there? Was she working there? Working there. What was her position? She worked in the photo lab electronics area. [00:07:16] Speaker 1: Soon after you met her, did the two of you start dating? Yes, sir. When did you get married? It was quickly right after we started dating. Was it a big wedding with lots of family or was it a quick courthouse wedding? It was a quick courthouse wedding, sir. When you first married, where did you and Rosa live together? On 9th Avenue Apartments. [00:07:44] Speaker 3: After that, where did you live? I bought the house on Hillcrest. Where did you get the money for the down payment? I cashed in my 401k from Walmart and used the money for the down payment and [00:07:58] Speaker 1: to buy appliances for the house also. We saw a lot of family photos inside of your home. I also saw in the hallway some lanyards on the wall. What were those? Yes, sir. They were expired tickets that we [00:08:20] Speaker 3: kept to show all the years that we went to the NASCAR races. We both enjoyed going to the NASCAR races. [00:08:27] Speaker 1: Was that one of your shared interests? That's one of the shared interests. [00:08:30] Speaker 3: The other shared interests. We would always go out for date nights once a week. [00:08:42] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about Rosa's interests. We heard her sister testify about karate. Was that something that she was once involved with? Yes, sir. Could you tell us what you know about that? [00:08:55] Speaker 3: What I know about that is she was a black belt in karate. She was inducted to the Karate Hall of Fame twice, sir. Did she do other sorts of physical activities? Yes, sir. She took boxing at the Y&C club downtown and she also took dance classes. Where did she do that? I believe it may have been at the Y also. I'm not 100% positive. [00:09:29] Speaker 1: The firearm that was used in this. Who did that firearm belong to? I bought the firearm, but we were both there. It was a joint [00:09:41] Speaker 3: that we both wanted it for protection. Protection from what? To be safe in case it was a intruder or anything [00:09:49] Speaker 1: coming in the house. Did both you and Rosa know how to operate that firearm? Yes, sir. [00:09:57] Speaker 3: How? She had a firearm prior and she also had firearm training. She used to go to the shooting ranges. Did the two of you go together sometimes? Yes, sir. I went twice with her. [00:10:18] Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about Cody now. When did Cody come into your life? Roughly around 2018. [00:10:31] Speaker 3: Where did you get him? We bought him off a lady over in Gulf Breeze area. She was selling him for $500 as a mixed breed lab. Whose idea was it to get the dog? Both of ours. [00:10:54] Speaker 1: Do you love that dog? Yes, sir. I know sometimes a dog can, you know, that's my dog. Was Cody your dog? Was he Rose's dog? Who was Cody closer with? [00:11:07] Speaker 3: That was my dog. It kind of stuck around me when we first got it. I helped train it, potty train it, break it, try to help it learn on the walk. I treated that dog like it was one of my kids. I love that dog as one of my kids. Like he was one of my sons. Still love that dog? Yes, sir. I miss him very much. [00:11:28] Speaker 1: Thank you very much. We obviously heard from the vet yesterday about the injuries that were done to Cody. Did you intend to do that? No, sir. Would you ever do something like that to Cody? No, sir. I want to talk to you a little bit about the backyard to your home. And we saw the gate that Deputy Glass was talking about. Why were the garbage cans positioned the way that they were? [00:12:07] Speaker 3: Put the garbage cans there because the bottom of the gate was warped and it would leave a gap in there. If we didn't put the cans up there, Cody would go out through that that hole and he's done it several times. We had a hard time tracking him down once he's done it. Did Cody spend a lot of time [00:12:23] Speaker 1: in the backyard? Off and on, yes, sir. Let's shift gears again. Text messages were put into evidence between you and Rosa. Those text messages show clearly that your marriage started to break down a few months prior to this incident. Is that accurate? Yes, sir. What happened? Why did your marriage [00:12:52] Speaker 3: start to break down? I was working the shift and she had changed her shift. So that led us to do two different lives. We were more or less like roommates at that point. It was very hard and stressful in [00:13:07] Speaker 1: our relationship. So you were working nights and sleeping all day? Yes, sir. What was her shift? She would work in the morning shift, sir. At some point leading up to this, did Rosa lose her job? Yes, sir. Could you explain to the jury how that happened? She had been disturbed lately. She never really got [00:13:34] Speaker 3: over the loss of her mother. And it was just traumatizing to her. And she went to work one day being upset. She threw up a few books and broke them. I'm going to sustain. You can set the proper [00:13:50] Speaker 1: foundation. Was your wife working up until a point where she wasn't anymore? Yes, sir. It's clear from the text messages that both of you were struggling with the separation. Did you try to [00:14:08] Speaker 3: reconcile? Yes, sir. How? Communication. We were going to go to therapy, but that kind of fell through [00:14:16] Speaker 1: because of the money issue. And then we heard that Rosa was living with her father at the two weeks prior leading up to this. Did you still see her during that time period? Yes, sir. How often she had came over to [00:14:34] Speaker 3: the house for the house for a three day period? First day was roughly five hours. Second day was roughly eight hours. The third day was complete day and night. Then after that she left? Yes, sir. [00:14:53] Speaker 1: Even after she left, were you still trying to reconcile? Yes, sir. I want to talk now about July 22, 2024. There are text messages placed into evidence and there's some phone calls on the CDRs that were placed into evidence between you and Rosa. Were there arrangements [00:15:17] Speaker 3: made for her to come over? Yes, sir. For what purpose? To come up and pick up the last few items that I had put up. [00:15:26] Speaker 1: Yes, sir. Were you trying to lure Rosa to your home? No, sir. Did you want her to come over to your home so you could kill her? No, sir. July 23, 2024. Did you go to work that day? Yes, sir. We saw you arrived at work and then left approximately two hours later. Forgive me if I don't have the timing exactly right. Why did you leave work? [00:16:04] Speaker 3: It was the stress and I was depressed. I just couldn't focus on work. [00:16:16] Speaker 1: Were you trying to beat Rosa to your house so that she could surprise her? No, sir. The surveillance footage shows you leaving around 4:30 a.m. Where do you go then? To home, sir. [00:16:37] Speaker 3: When you get home, where did you park your car? In the driveway by the window. [00:16:45] Speaker 1: Did you park in the backyard to hide from your wife? No, sir. After you parked, what did you do then? Went in the house. When you went inside, what were you doing? Waiting. For what? For Rosa to get there. Was there a time that the two of you had arranged? I believe there was. I think it was like between 5:00 and 6:00. From messages, it appears she didn't come when you thought she was going to come. Around 6:00 a.m. Is that right? Yes, sir. Around 6:00 a.m., what happened? [00:17:37] Speaker 3: Around 6:00 a.m., Cody barked and that's a sign that somebody's there. [00:17:46] Speaker 1: At the house? Yes, sir. Who did you think was at the house? [00:17:52] Speaker 3: I didn't know it was her, but I was thinking it was her. [00:17:56] Speaker 1: Did you hear the front door open? No, sir. [00:17:59] Speaker 3: Did you go to the front door? I kind of looked out the window. There was like a shade that had a little gap in the scene. Her car was out there. Where was she parked? Behind my car. What did she do after parking the car? She came and knocked on the door. She could not get in because I had the outer storm door locked. [00:18:23] Speaker 1: So explain the front door to the jurors. Is it just one door with a key or are there two doors? There are two doors. And how do you get in? [00:18:34] Speaker 3: The first door, it locks from the inside. We never ever had a key. So once you lock from the inside, you can't get in. The second door had a deadbolt and it also had a lock, two different keys. [00:18:47] Speaker 1: Did you unlock the door for Rosa? Yes, sir. Did she come in? Yes, sir. [00:18:52] Speaker 3: When she came in, where did she go? She went to the wall by the living room, kitchen area. [00:19:00] Speaker 1: Explain to the jurors. It was explained yesterday, but they might not remember. When you go through the front door, where are you in the home? [00:19:08] Speaker 3: I am standing by the door. [00:19:09] Speaker 1: Not you. Sorry. Not a good question. Just describe the layout. When you go through the front door, [00:19:14] Speaker 3: what room do you enter? It's like the living room kind of area, like an entrance area. [00:19:23] Speaker 1: So when Rosa enters the home, where does she go? She goes to like the entrance area. There's a wall [00:19:29] Speaker 3: there and there's the door there, like open area door where the kitchen is. Where do you go? I stand by the door, the front door. How does she seem when she comes in? Distraught, aggravated. And I can tell that because her face is red. Her cheeks always get really, [00:19:51] Speaker 1: really extremely red. And at this point, you've known her for 14 years. You know her mannerisms? Yes, sir. So she seemed aggravated. What happened at that point? [00:20:05] Speaker 3: At that point, she had asked for a pan and she asked me where it was. I said no. And after that, she went and turned around and went in the kitchen and looked for the pan. She came back. She said, where's the pan? I said, I don't know where the pan is. You had the pan last. You put it up. [00:20:24] Speaker 1: How did she react when you said he didn't know where the pan was? Angry. That was her mother's and that's all she had left. Was she angrier than when she walked in? Yes, sir. After discussing the pan, did Rosa shift the conversation onto a new topic? Yes, sir. What was that? [00:20:49] Speaker 3: The topic was trying to get me to sell her the house. Did you want to sell the house to her? No, sir. What was the offer? The first offer was $10,000. Did you accept or decline? I declined. How did she react to that? Did not like it. Very angry, starting to get more agitated. [00:21:14] Speaker 1: Did her offer change? Yes, sir. To what? To $15,000. Did you accept? No, sir. How did she react? [00:21:25] Speaker 3: Angrily. Still very aggravated. [00:21:31] Speaker 1: At this point, are you still in the living room area? Yes, sir. Do you start to suspect after spending some time with Rosa a few minutes that she might be intoxicated? Yes, sir. What leads you to that belief? [00:21:50] Speaker 3: Because her eyes were like waterish reddish around them. And then whenever she drank, her face got red. [00:22:02] Speaker 1: Did you want to continue arguing with Rosa about the house? No, sir. What did you want her to do at that point? Just take her stuff and leave. Did you ask her to do that? Yes, sir. How did she respond? [00:22:18] Speaker 3: Called me a piece of fucking shit. [00:22:24] Speaker 1: Did you and Rosa stay in the living room the whole time or did you move to a different location in the house? [00:22:31] Speaker 3: We, well, she moved, started moving down the hallway quickly. I followed right behind her, sir. Why did you do that? Because I just wanted her to get her things and not go in any room and start digging. [00:22:45] Speaker 1: I just want her to take her stuff and leave. And when you say her things, do you mean her personal belongings or the property that you and she had accumulated throughout the years? Her personal belongings. What did you want to have happen with the rest of the property? The furniture, the TVs, things that you had bought together? That would have been decided through the courts. So she storms down the hallway. You follow after her. Where does she go? She goes to the master bedroom [00:23:21] Speaker 3: on the left. Where do you go? I'm right behind her. Do you enter the bedroom? She enters the bedroom first. Do you enter the bedroom after her? Yes, sir. [00:23:33] Speaker 1: When you enter the bedroom, where do you go? I go towards the corner where the bathroom is. [00:23:42] Speaker 3: After you enter, what does she do? She closes the door behind me and I found that very odd, weird like I was being boxed in. Are you starting to feel a little worried? Yes, sir. [00:23:59] Speaker 1: Is Rosa calming down or is she becoming more agitated? Yes, sir. I apologize, sir. She's more aggravated. When you get into the bedroom, does the argument continue? Yes, sir. [00:24:22] Speaker 3: Walk us through that. Where are you? She is standing by the two dressers that are side by side. I'm still standing over in the corner. She takes and she slams her hand down and says, can I take this effing dresser? I said, no, you cannot take the dresser. [00:24:39] Speaker 1: Which dresser are you referring to? There was a white dresser and there was a brown dresser. [00:24:44] Speaker 3: That is the white dresser right beside the right side by side each other. [00:24:50] Speaker 1: When you told her that she couldn't take the dresser, how did she react? [00:24:56] Speaker 3: More agitated. [00:25:01] Speaker 1: What happens next? [00:25:04] Speaker 3: After that, she asked, goes like that, can I take the TV? I said, no, you're not taking the TV. All this stuff is going to be decided between the courts. I said, would you just please take your stuff and leave? It is sitting right there on the corner of the bed. [00:25:17] Speaker 1: How did she respond to that? [00:25:21] Speaker 3: Aggravated, more irritated. [00:25:32] Speaker 1: What happens next? [00:25:35] Speaker 3: Well, can I go back to when she slammed her hand down? On the dresser. [00:25:40] Speaker 1: We can talk about that. When she slammed her hand down on the dresser, what did you notice? [00:25:46] Speaker 3: When she took and she slammed her hand down like that, where she slammed it at, it was in the proximity of the gun. When she slammed her hand down, she went like that. She kind of was like that. And that's the point where I got scared because she had training. She was a martial arts expert. She was very close to the gun and I was at a distance. [00:26:05] Speaker 1: What were you starting to be afraid of at that point? [00:26:08] Speaker 3: I was very afraid at that point. I feared for my life at that point. It was closer than I was. [00:26:18] Speaker 1: I want to pause right there for a second and talk about a previous incident between you and Rosa. Has your wife ever been violent towards you in the past? [00:26:28] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:26:29] Speaker 1: Could you tell the jurors about that? [00:26:32] Speaker 3: May I turn? Yes. Yes, sir. So one time we were cooking in the kitchen and I had bought all the stuff to make lasagna. The way she made her lasagna, I did not like the taste of it. It was like gritty-ish kind of tasting. I didn't like it. And I told her, well, we are all supposed to cook together. We always share turns cooking together. And she started to take over. And I said, this is not how it's supposed to be. I'm the one who bought it. And I said I was going to cook supper for both of us. She got aggravated. She said, why can't I just do it with my lasagna? Because I don't like the way your lasagna tastes like garbage. She got aggravated and she come up and took and hit me on the side over here. And as soon as she hit me on the side, I went down to the ground instantly, like crumbled. [00:27:13] Speaker 1: You gestured there, but the record's not going to pick that up. She hit you with what? And where did she hit you? [00:27:20] Speaker 3: She hit me with her fifth, like arm, like on this, like kind of like chops, like right over here. [00:27:27] Speaker 1: And what happened to you after she did that? [00:27:30] Speaker 3: I went completely down on the ground. I like, like just like buckle crumbled. And after that, she kind of looked over me. She says, remember what I can do. [00:27:41] Speaker 1: Was that in your mind when you were in that small bedroom with her on July 23rd? [00:27:48] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. That never left my mind. [00:27:54] Speaker 1: Getting back to July 23rd, we had stopped at the moment where she noticed the gun and you started to fear for your life. What happened at that point? [00:28:05] Speaker 3: After that point, she had asked again about the house. She offered me $10,000. I said, I am not doing this. The house is going to go back to the bank. And she said, you can't even try to work with me, you piece of shit. I said, no. And she said, my dad has $15,000. That's all he has. And I said, I'm not taking anything for that house. I took the money on my 401k. I've worked all my years at Walmart to get that money. I'm not going to do it. It will go back to the bank. I said, just please take your stuff and leave. [00:28:40] Speaker 1: At that point, where are you and where is she? I had moved up when I seen her slam her hand down [00:28:48] Speaker 3: and look at the gun. I had moved up a little bit more towards the dresser area. Why? Because if something was going to happen, I felt my life was in fear. I would want to have a chance [00:28:59] Speaker 1: to try to defend myself. So you're positioning yourself closer to the gun? Yes, sir. So she said, you're nothing but a piece of shit. What happens after that? [00:29:16] Speaker 3: At that point, she is getting more irritated because her cheeks are getting really, really, dark red. What's going through your mind? I am scared for my life at that point. I really feel like [00:29:39] Speaker 1: I have been threatened. Does she threaten you? Yes, sir. Tell us how we get to that point. [00:29:50] Speaker 3: As she gets closer to the gun, she takes a little step closer up towards the white dresser, in between the brown and white dresser side to side like this. She moves a step up and that puts her closer. As she steps up, I move up near the dresser. And as I move up near the dresser, she comes at me, charges at me. She starts kicking me on knees and she knows I have bad knees. She's went to the surgeries through with me. I can't remember how many I've had. I have countless ones. She starts kicking me on the right one, which I just had a knee replacement in. She kicks me repeatedly, I think five, six times. She kicks me on the left one a few times. After that, I go to bend over to grab my knees. And as I bend over to grab my knees, it feels like she's taken her arm and goes down on my lower back. Bam, bam, bam, probably five, six, eight times. After that, I try to pull myself up and I push her. As I push her, she slides back and she kind of like stumbles a little bit, but she regains her standing ability. [00:30:58] Speaker 1: What did she say to you at that point? [00:31:03] Speaker 3: What was that? I'm sorry. [00:31:04] Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Can you not hear me? [00:31:06] Speaker 3: It fell out. I didn't hear what it said. [00:31:08] Speaker 1: I said, after you pushed her off of you, what did she say to you? [00:31:13] Speaker 3: After that, she looked at me and she said, you piece of fucking shit, I am going to kill you. [00:31:20] Speaker 1: What do you do then? [00:31:22] Speaker 3: I reach up towards the gun because she is charging at me. After she charged, after I get the gun, the gun is kind of like at an angle like that. And I just fire the gun. Don't know how many times I fire the gun, but I fired the gun. [00:31:39] Speaker 1: Did you hit Rosa? [00:31:43] Speaker 3: Yes, and I thought I had hit the dog. It wasn't 100% part of it because I heard the dog yelp. And it was not my intentions to hit my baby, my boy. [00:31:55] Speaker 1: This whole time that you're in the bedroom with Rosa arguing, did you know that Cody was in the room? [00:32:04] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:32:06] Speaker 1: Where does he sometimes like to be in the bedroom? [00:32:09] Speaker 3: He goes up under the bed because it's cool up under there. He likes to lay on the cold floor. [00:32:16] Speaker 1: When you fired that gun, what was going through your mind? [00:32:21] Speaker 3: I feared for my life. It was either going to be... At that point, I felt like it was either going to be her or me. At that point, that was going to walk up out of there. [00:32:34] Speaker 1: Did you plan on shooting your wife that day? [00:32:38] Speaker 3: No, sir. That was the last thought from my mind. [00:32:41] Speaker 1: After that happened, how were you feeling? [00:32:44] Speaker 3: I was... [00:32:46] Speaker 1: Overruled. [00:32:48] Speaker 3: I was distraught. I was like... Out of my mind, I was not really that coherent. Because I've never experienced anything like that's traumatizing. [00:33:02] Speaker 1: What did you do? [00:33:03] Speaker 3: I just kind of like... Like zombied out, just stood there like... Like that. [00:33:16] Speaker 1: Where did you go in the house after that happened? Front room towards the couch area. Did you sit down? [00:33:24] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. How were you feeling then? I was still out of it. Still the same distraught. Zombie-ish. Not really coherent. [00:33:35] Speaker 1: We heard that there's no record of you calling 911. Why didn't she call the police at that point? [00:33:40] Speaker 3: I was out of it, sir. I just wasn't there. [00:33:48] Speaker 1: Instead, your first call was to your sister, Dolores. [00:33:53] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. And that was probably not the smartest decision because she has very severe mental health issues. But at that point in time, that's the only one I had contact people to get hold of. [00:34:11] Speaker 1: So obviously, Rosa's car was moved. Did you do that? [00:34:16] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:34:16] Speaker 1: Why did you do that? [00:34:18] Speaker 3: To try to buy time to figure out what the heck I was going to do. [00:34:26] Speaker 1: After moving Rosa's car, did you ever check on Cody? [00:34:32] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. I went to check on him and see if I could see what happened to him, if I hit him. Because of the yelping sound. And when I went to look at him, he was still up under the bed. When I went to look like, he kind of like barked, growls. He was like, argh. [00:34:47] Speaker 1: What did you do? Leave him alone? Yes, sir. We heard about messages from Rosa's Facebook account to her sister's Facebook account. Did you send those messages? [00:35:03] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:35:04] Speaker 1: Why? [00:35:07] Speaker 3: To buy time to figure out what the heck to do. Never been in this situation. [00:35:11] Speaker 1: There was a mop that was collected at some point. Did you try to clean up a little bit? [00:35:31] Speaker 3: Yes, just quickly, kind of. [00:35:35] Speaker 1: We saw the pictures. It doesn't look like you cleaned up very much. Did you give up on that? [00:35:39] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, sir. [00:35:44] Speaker 1: And throughout the day, you're communicating with Dolores? Yes, sir. On the phone and by text, is that right? Yes, sir. What frame of mind were you in when you were texting with your sister? [00:36:04] Speaker 3: I was still in the zombie-ish, like, out of it, like, kind of like this. [00:36:21] Speaker 1: At some point, you decided to go to your sister's in Milton. Why? [00:36:27] Speaker 3: To try to get some advice, which was not smart. [00:36:34] Speaker 1: Did you have anywhere or anyone else to go to in the area? No, sir. You didn't bring Cody with you. Why? [00:36:48] Speaker 3: When I went to check on him, he was still irritated and agitated. And I didn't want to mess with him, so I was going to come back later and check on him. [00:37:03] Speaker 1: The next day? [00:37:04] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:37:18] Speaker 1: After you get up to Dolores, you're not there very long before the police arrive. Is that right? Correct, sir. Just circling back. [00:37:38] Speaker 3: I didn't hear that. [00:37:38] Speaker 1: I said just circling back. Did you want to kill your wife? [00:37:43] Speaker 4: Objection has an answer. [00:37:45] Speaker 2: Overruled. You can ask that one more time. [00:37:52] Speaker 3: You can answer the question. No, sir. That was not my intention. I just want her to take her stuff and leave. [00:37:58] Speaker 1: Did she leave you with any other choice? [00:38:02] Speaker 3: No, sir. At that point, it was my belief it was either her or me. [00:38:11] Speaker 2: Your Honor, may I have one moment? [00:38:12] Speaker ?: Yes, sir. [00:38:25] Speaker 2: All right, Mr. Kramer, Ms. Shea is going to ask you some questions now, probably. Thank you, Mr. Benson. Ms. Shea, you may cross-examine. [00:38:32] Speaker 4: Mr. Kramer, you killed your wife on July the 23rd, 2024, didn't you? [00:38:51] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:38:52] Speaker 4: You shot her four times, didn't you? [00:38:55] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:38:55] Speaker 4: Two times in the head, right? [00:38:58] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:38:59] Speaker 4: One time in the side? [00:39:01] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:39:01] Speaker 4: One time in the leg? [00:39:03] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:39:04] Speaker 4: At least twice, at least two of those shots, she had to be on the ground, didn't she? [00:39:09] Speaker 3: I don't recall. As I said, I just fired and I wasn't staring. [00:39:14] Speaker 4: You sat in this trial and watched all the, you've watched all the evidence, all the pictures, all the testimony. At least two of those shots, she was laying on the ground, wasn't she? [00:39:24] Speaker 3: Again, I don't recall. I wasn't staring at it. I just shot, fired. [00:39:29] Speaker 4: So you weren't watching the trial? [00:39:32] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. I was watching the trial. [00:39:37] Speaker 4: And this shooting happened right after she got there, didn't it? [00:39:42] Speaker 3: Not right after, directly, no. [00:39:45] Speaker 4: How many minutes? [00:39:48] Speaker 3: It could have been a few minutes. It wasn't right directly, maybe four or five minutes. [00:39:54] Speaker 4: And how long were you zombied out before you called Dolores? [00:40:01] Speaker 3: I was pretty much zombied out the day and night period, all day, all night. [00:40:07] Speaker 4: Zombied out all day and all night? [00:40:09] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:10] Speaker 4: Okay. You admitted that you killed her, didn't you? [00:40:15] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:16] Speaker ?: To Dolores? [00:40:17] Speaker 3: Excuse me, I didn't hear that. [00:40:18] Speaker 4: You admitted to Dolores that you killed her, didn't you? [00:40:22] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:23] Speaker 4: And you were there at the house on the 23rd when you were actually supposed to be at work, right? [00:40:30] Speaker 3: I left work early, yes, ma'am. [00:40:32] Speaker 4: So you were supposed to be at work, right? [00:40:34] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:35] Speaker 4: You walked out early from your shift, didn't you? [00:40:37] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:39] Speaker 4: And you thought that she, you said you thought she was coming at 5:30, correct? [00:40:45] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:46] Speaker 4: But you left work at 4:30, right? [00:40:49] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:54] Speaker 4: And you used the gun that you bought, correct? [00:40:58] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:40:59] Speaker 4: You had her blood on your clothes, didn't you? [00:41:04] Speaker 3: I don't know if it was her blood or the dog's blood. [00:41:07] Speaker 4: She was bleeding, right? [00:41:10] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:41:10] Speaker 4: And the dog was bleeding, right? [00:41:12] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:41:13] Speaker 4: And you had probably both her blood and the dog's blood on your clothes, is that fair? [00:41:21] Speaker 3: Could be, yes, ma'am. [00:41:23] Speaker 4: And be fair that the dog's blood and her blood were on your shoes? [00:41:28] Speaker 3: From what they testified, yes, they said it was. [00:41:31] Speaker 4: And then you moved her car to hide it, didn't you? [00:41:35] Speaker 3: I did not move her car to hide, I moved to buy time. [00:41:40] Speaker 4: Well, you needed it to not be at your house in order to get time, right? [00:41:47] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:41:48] Speaker 4: So you hid it, didn't you? [00:41:49] Speaker 3: Not hiding, no, ma'am. [00:41:51] Speaker 4: Okay, well, if it's not where it's supposed to be, then it's hiding, is it not? [00:41:56] Speaker 1: Objection on you landed. [00:41:58] Speaker 3: Overruled. No, to me, no, ma'am. [00:42:03] Speaker 4: Okay. She had sent you a long email saying that it was over on the 22nd, correct? [00:42:11] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:42:13] Speaker 4: And you told your sister about that email before you killed her, didn't you? [00:42:17] Speaker 3: I did not hear what you said, I'm sorry. [00:42:19] Speaker 4: I said you told your sister about the email that she had sent, correct? [00:42:26] Speaker 3: Yes, yes, ma'am. [00:42:27] Speaker 4: You actually told your sister about the email the same day you got the email, right? [00:42:33] Speaker 3: Don't recall if I did the same day or not. I do not remember. [00:42:53] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:42:54] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. Thank you. [00:43:53] Speaker 3: I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. Can I take this out so I can hear you? [00:44:11] Speaker 4: Yeah. I'll just leave this here with you. [00:44:18] Speaker 2: Ms. Shea, you already have an R. R1 through 9, I think. [00:44:22] Speaker 4: I'm going to change it to S then. [00:44:24] Speaker 2: Okay. It's number S for identification. [00:44:28] Speaker 4: I'll change it to S after this. All right. I came back over here so you can hear me. Can you hear me now? [00:44:34] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:44:35] Speaker 4: Okay. I'm going to ask you to take a look at that exhibit that says R, but it means S, okay? There's two pages. [00:44:43] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:44:45] Speaker 4: Did you look at the second page? [00:44:47] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:44:52] Speaker 4: And the long paragraph on the second page, is that the email that she'd sent you on July the 22nd? [00:45:03] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:45:04] Speaker 4: And then the dialogue that's above it, are your replies to that email to her? [00:45:11] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:45:13] Speaker 4: Okay. So this is the email that you were referencing when you were talking to Dolores in the text messages that you sent her on July the 22nd. Is that correct? [00:45:24] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:45:25] Speaker 4: You had said to your sister at 1020 on the 22nd, this is Tim. She's not going to come back. She left me a long email, correct? [00:45:36] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:45:37] Speaker 4: Okay. And then right after you killed Rosa, you went to the sofa, sat down, zombied out, and then you started calling your sister, right? [00:45:54] Speaker 3: Right after, no. I did not call her right after, no. [00:45:58] Speaker 4: How long before you started calling her? [00:46:01] Speaker 3: I believe that before I called her, I had moved the vehicle and then came back home, and that's when I did. [00:46:09] Speaker 4: Now, we just heard testimony and looked at cell phone records that said you called her at 6.18 in the morning. Or you started calling her, I'm sorry, at 6.16 in the morning. And then you had a whole conversation with her at 6.18 for nine minutes and another conversation with her at 6.42 for two minutes. But you didn't move the car until 7.40. [00:46:45] Speaker 3: I believe, I guess you're right, ma'am. I just don't remember the times specifically. [00:46:51] Speaker 4: But it's fair to say that you started calling your sister pretty promptly on the 23rd, and then you texted with her all day long. Is that correct? [00:47:00] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:47:01] Speaker 4: Okay. First and foremost, you did not call the police to report that your wife had attacked you, correct? [00:47:12] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:47:13] Speaker 4: And you didn't call the police to report that you'd killed her in response, correct? [00:47:18] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:47:19] Speaker 4: Instead, you started texting with Dolores and you lied to your sister about calling the police, didn't you? [00:47:32] Speaker 3: Correct, I guess. [00:47:34] Speaker 4: So that's a yes? [00:47:35] Speaker 3: Correct, ma'am. [00:47:37] Speaker 4: And then you lied to Dolores about reporting Rosa's death, didn't you? [00:47:42] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:47:43] Speaker 4: And you lied to Dolores about your address, didn't you? [00:47:47] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:47:48] Speaker 4: And you lied to Dolores every time you told her that you were waiting at the house for law enforcement to arrive, didn't you? [00:47:55] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:47:57] Speaker 4: And you lied to her when you told her that law enforcement did arrive, didn't you? Correct. And you lied to her when you told her that law enforcement was there investigating the death, didn't you? Correct. And you lied to her when you said, I scratched my face with her nail as she was coming at me, didn't you? [00:48:15] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:48:17] Speaker 4: Correct? [00:48:18] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:48:19] Speaker 4: You didn't have any scratches on your face, did you? [00:48:21] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:48:22] Speaker 4: And you didn't have any scratches on your back either, did you? [00:48:26] Speaker 3: On the back, no. [00:48:28] Speaker 4: And you didn't have any marks, cuts, bruises, or other injuries on your back, did you? [00:48:33] Speaker 3: On the back, no, ma'am. [00:48:35] Speaker 4: You didn't have any physical evidence of a violent attack, did you? [00:48:40] Speaker 3: I didn't hear that. I apologize. [00:48:42] Speaker 4: You had no physical evidence on your body of a violent attack, did you? [00:48:46] Speaker 3: I had scratches on my chest, stomach area, and then a scratch on the back of one of my arms. [00:48:56] Speaker 4: And you didn't tell law enforcement that those were injuries, did you? No, ma'am. You didn't tell anybody that you had injuries, did you? [00:49:04] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:49:05] Speaker 4: Yet, you want this jury to believe that you feared for your life. [00:49:08] Speaker 3: Objection on the right of the rule. What was that? I'm sorry? [00:49:14] Speaker 4: You want this jury to believe today that you feared for your life, even though you had no injuries. [00:49:19] Speaker 3: I just told you I had injuries on my scratches and on my arm. [00:49:27] Speaker 4: You've not told anyone that you had a scratch on your chest. [00:49:30] Speaker 3: I didn't say anything to the police, period, when they had got me. [00:49:34] Speaker 4: I understand that. But in your testimony with Mr. Benson, you never said you had a scratch on your chest. [00:49:41] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:49:43] Speaker 4: No. In fact, that's not a scratch. It's just a red mark, correct? [00:49:48] Speaker 3: No, it was like a scratch, like a, I don't know what to call it. [00:49:52] Speaker 4: It looks like it. Why? Because you saw the picture? [00:49:56] Speaker 3: Because I looked at the picture and you could see it was like. [00:49:59] Speaker 4: Okay. Well, when you were at the Milton Police Department, you were handcuffed behind your back, correct? [00:50:07] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:50:08] Speaker 4: And they hit you in handcuffs about 1 o'clock in the morning? [00:50:13] Speaker 3: Around there, yes, ma'am. [00:50:14] Speaker 4: And you had to sit in that chair, handcuffed behind your back? Like this for, what, 5, 6 hours? [00:50:21] Speaker 3: I believe so, yes, ma'am. [00:50:23] Speaker 4: Okay. So you lied to Dolores when you told her that law enforcement took your gun, didn't you? [00:50:30] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:50:31] Speaker 4: And you lied to her when you said they were taking pictures of your face and taking pictures of Rosa, didn't you? Yes. And then you lied to her again, some more, when you told her that the cops were questioning you about whether or not you needed to use deadly force, didn't you? [00:50:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:47] Speaker 4: And then you lied to Dolores when you told her that the cops said you couldn't stay in your house. [00:50:52] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:50:53] Speaker 4: And you lied to Dolores when you told her that the investigation was still ongoing and this had been going on for hours. [00:51:00] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:51:02] Speaker 4: And then you lied to Dolores when you said that the cops were looking at you and whispering about you. [00:51:08] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:51:10] Speaker 4: You lied to your sister about Rosa's dad being at the house after the death and picking up some paperwork, didn't you? Correct. You lied to your sister and made up that whole episode, didn't you? [00:51:27] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:51:28] Speaker 4: But you were zombied out the whole time. [00:51:31] Speaker 3: Ma'am. [00:51:32] Speaker 4: Okay. When this attack happened, you were the one that was closest to the door in the bedroom, right? [00:51:40] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:51:43] Speaker 4: You said she was standing in the corner by the dog bed and the dresser, right? You were over by the bathroom door initially. Correct? [00:51:53] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:51:54] Speaker 4: And you kept moving closer to her, right? [00:51:57] Speaker 3: I moved up from the, to the back of the bedroom was up to the area where the dresser was. [00:52:04] Speaker 4: Your testimony was that she slammed her hand down on the white dresser or the brown dresser? [00:52:09] Speaker 3: The white. [00:52:10] Speaker 4: And you said that the gun, this gun was on the white dresser? [00:52:15] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. The brown dresser. [00:52:17] Speaker 4: It was on the brown dresser. But you moved closer to it because you wanted to try to get to it first. No, ma'am. No. No. She moved up closer to it, so you moved up closer to it is what you said, right? [00:52:55] Speaker 3: I did not hear that. I apologize. [00:52:57] Speaker 4: I said she moved closer to it, so you moved closer to it, correct? That's what you said? [00:53:03] Speaker 3: She moved closer because she was already near it more closer than I was, but I moved up to it a little bit yesterday. [00:53:12] Speaker 4: Well, she was shot while she was standing in the corner or laying in the corner of the room, wasn't she? [00:53:20] Speaker 3: Again, I don't remember. [00:53:21] Speaker ?: Again, I don't remember. [00:53:21] Speaker 3: I just fired. [00:53:23] Speaker 4: Well, you didn't pick her up and move her, did you? [00:53:26] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:53:27] Speaker 4: Okay. So that's where she stopped. That's where she landed, right? [00:53:30] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:53:31] Speaker 4: So that's where she had to be, right? [00:53:34] Speaker 3: Apparently, yes, ma'am. [00:53:35] Speaker 4: So then you had to be closer to the door than she was, right? [00:53:40] Speaker 3: Somewhat, yes, ma'am. [00:53:41] Speaker 4: Okay. From that position, she couldn't get out of the door, could she? [00:53:51] Speaker 3: No, ma'am. [00:53:54] Speaker 4: After this, you thought about staging a self-defense scene by putting a knife in her hand, didn't you? [00:54:00] Speaker 3: Did I think about it? No. [00:54:03] Speaker 4: No, you just told your sister that, right? Yes, ma'am. [00:54:06] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:54:08] Speaker 4: And then you lied to Lisa, Rosa's sister, by pretending to be Rosa, right? [00:54:14] Speaker 3: Ma'am. [00:54:15] Speaker 4: Telling Lisa that Rosa was at the beach having a cocktail. [00:54:20] Speaker 3: Ma'am. [00:54:21] Speaker 4: Even though you weren't, even though you knew Rosa was not at the beach having a cocktail, right? And you knew that she wasn't soaking in the sun trying to clear her head, right? [00:54:31] Speaker ?: Ma'am. [00:54:31] Speaker 4: So you lied to Lisa, and then you lied to the cop who talked to you in the doorway at Dolores' apartment, didn't you? [00:54:43] Speaker 3: I believe, ma'am. [00:54:46] Speaker 4: I mean, that probably did freak you out when Milton Petey knocked on Dolores' door looking for you, right? [00:54:53] Speaker ?: Yeah. [00:54:53] Speaker 4: Yeah? [00:54:54] Speaker 2: Speak up, sir. You need to keep your voice up. [00:54:58] Speaker 4: But you told that officer that you hadn't seen Rosa, didn't you? [00:55:02] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:55:04] Speaker 4: And that was a lie, wasn't it? [00:55:06] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:55:07] Speaker 4: And then you told him that you hadn't talked to her in a week, didn't you? [00:55:11] Speaker 3: I believe so, yes, ma'am. [00:55:12] Speaker 4: And that was a lie, right? Ma'am. And you told him that if you knew where she was, you would tell him, right? [00:55:20] Speaker 3: I believe so, ma'am. [00:55:22] Speaker 4: But that was a lie, right? [00:55:24] Speaker ?: Ma'am. [00:55:25] Speaker 2: Hold on a second. Are you saying ma'am when she asked a question? I can't tell if you're responding yes or no. [00:55:32] Speaker 3: I'm responding yes, sir. [00:55:35] Speaker 2: Okay. All right. I just heard ma'am, so just keep your voice up for us, okay? [00:55:39] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. I apologize. [00:55:41] Speaker 2: No, that's all right. You don't have to apologize. Go ahead, Stake. [00:55:45] Speaker 4: In truth, in the days preceding her death, you had been doing nothing but trying to get Rosa to talk to you. Isn't that true? [00:55:55] Speaker 3: Try to get her to talk to me so we could try to work out what we had going on. [00:55:59] Speaker 4: So you were trying over and over and over again to get her to talk to you, weren't you? [00:56:04] Speaker 3: Ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Sorry. [00:56:06] Speaker 4: And you lied to Rosa in your messages to her when you told her you weren't going to be there the morning of the 23rd, didn't you? [00:56:15] Speaker 3: Don't recall. [00:56:22] Speaker 4: Well, you were there, though, weren't you? [00:56:24] Speaker 3: I was at the house, yes, ma'am. [00:56:26] Speaker 4: And today, you want this jury to believe your story? [00:56:29] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:56:32] Speaker 4: You're responsible for her death, aren't you? [00:56:35] Speaker 3: Ma'am. Yes, ma'am. [00:56:37] Speaker 4: And you know that the only way you don't go to jail is if they believe you, right? [00:56:43] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:56:45] Speaker 4: State? [00:56:46] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:56:54] Speaker 2: Y'all ready to proceed? Yes, ma'am. All right, great. We are on cross-examination by the state. You may continue, Ms. Shea. [00:57:04] Speaker 4: On the 23rd of July, you were very worried about being arrested and going to jail, weren't you? [00:57:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:57:14] Speaker 4: In fact, you told Dolores five to ten times you weren't going to jail, right? [00:57:20] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:57:21] Speaker 4: And that's why you got mad at her when she told you that she'd told Samantha about all of this, whoever Samantha Grace is. [00:57:32] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:57:37] Speaker 4: That's why you wanted to run to her house to hide, right, to stay out of jail? [00:57:42] Speaker 3: I was not trying to hide, no, ma'am. I was trying to figure out what to do. [00:57:51] Speaker 4: You told her in the text messages, okay, so no matter what happens, you're still going to hide me and no one will turn me in, right? [00:58:15] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:58:16] Speaker 4: So you wanted to go hide at her house, didn't you? [00:58:20] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:58:27] Speaker 4: On the 23rd, you didn't believe this was self-defense either, did you? [00:58:33] Speaker 3: I believe it was. [00:58:36] Speaker 4: You told your sister she had to show deadly force under the law and she did not. Didn't you tell her that? [00:58:43] Speaker 3: Yes, ma'am. [00:58:45] Speaker 4: No, you didn't? [00:58:46] Speaker 3: I said, yes, ma'am. [00:58:48] Speaker 4: Okay. And that's why you never reported it to the police because you didn't believe it yourself, did you? [00:58:55] Speaker 3: I didn't report it, but I did believe it was self. [00:59:01] Speaker 4: I don't have any other questions. [00:59:03] Speaker 2: All right, thank you. Redirect, Mr. Oh, gosh, it's been a long day. Mr. Benson, yes, thank you. [00:59:13] Speaker 1: No redirects. [00:59:14] Speaker 2: Thank you, sir. Mr. Kramer, you can stand down, sir, and have a seat next to your attorney, okay? Yes, sir. All right.