DESTINY VS KONSTANTIN KISIN — Trump, Immigration & Wokeism

[0:00] hey everyone trav here just to remind you that every new active subscriber directly contributes [0:06] to how quickly we can produce these kinds of conversations for you so please take a second [0:11] to subscribe smash that like button on the video and make sure you leave us a comment in the [0:17] comment section now please enjoy constantine kissin verse destiny are you the same as you [0:31] were 10 or 15 years ago what do you mean by that the same you're not unchanged right i are you [0:37] pretending to be a moron or you're actually being one your guys's definitions for everything change [0:42] at all points in time that's the that's always the issue that's always the frustrating thing when [0:45] it comes to fighting who's us guys conservatives i'm not a conservative i know you say you're not but [0:50] are you sure you're not running for a political party right now because i was the most politician [0:54] answer i've ever heard in my life of a conservative people in foreign policy over the past five years [0:58] so you do this thing where you're like well i have to choose between two things i'm not going to talk [1:02] if you keep interrupting me i'm not interested in this whatever this is you are i'm literally not [1:06] i'm asking you a question you just refuse to answer this is the game how did i do it again [1:11] i'm asking you a clear question you can't give me an answer i'm not going to talk to you unless [1:16] you listen to what i'm saying as well as me listening to what you're saying i am listening okay [1:19] good welcome to pangburn are we ready to go what i hope to see on the pangburn stage here tonight [1:33] is what i always want to see and that's good faith helpful discourse the pangburn maxim the [1:40] communication maxim is that good faith and helpfulness are the minimum requirements for [1:45] a fruitful dialectic that's what we want to see and ultimately i hope this conversation tonight when [1:52] it's shared with the world will maximize well-being for humanity in one way or another so in saying that [2:02] please welcome to the stage constantine kissin and destiny [2:09] can national identity survive open immigration i guess i'll yeah i'll take them yeah i'll kind of [2:32] take the reins on this um i feel like when i hear people talk about things related to open borders mass [2:38] migration or national identity there's kind of two questions that always pop up in my mind and never [2:42] hear people actually kind of tack down what they mean when they say these things so the first thing is [2:47] for national identity i don't know as much about the various identities that exist in the uk but i [2:51] know for the united states to try to find an overlap between identity from a gay guy in san francisco [2:56] versus like a farmer in iowa or something is there's not many commonalities there uh to speak [3:02] when you talk about national identity especially when i'm thinking of it in the context of what type [3:06] of immigrant would threaten that whatever unified identity whatever those two things are uh so i'm kind [3:12] of curious i guess when i think about national identity when i think about being threatened by people my first [3:16] question is what is the national identity that we're trying to protect for the united states or [3:20] for the united kingdom and then when we talk about like migration or mass migration what do we mean [3:27] exactly when we say that um well okay so there's two questions that what is national identity and what is [3:35] immigration um why don't we start in reverse and talk about immigration take britain as an example right [3:40] um so i've lived in this country i came to britain uh from it was just about russia prior to that was [3:47] the soviet union in 1996. so let's go back to 1991 because that's the data when we have the census [3:54] 1991 what has happened in the last 35 years um so in the last 35 years ago this country had a population [4:02] of 58 million people today the population is 70 million almost all of that is due to mass immigration [4:08] so the population of britain the immigrant population of britain that's first generation people who've arrived [4:14] went from 4 million to 12 million in the space of 35 years right it trebled in 35 years now you might [4:20] say well you know is that a lot is that a little who knows uh that is more people in in the last 35 [4:25] years more people came to britain than came to britain in the previous two millennia so more people [4:32] in 35 years than had come in 2000 years now that seems like quite a lot right now we'll talk about [4:40] some more facts about this and we can talk about national identity i'm going to take a little time if you [4:45] don't mind just to lay yeah i guess just kind of poke around as you answer yeah but hold on let me [4:49] just lay just just let's talk about what we mean by immigration right because okay well then also the [4:54] mass because i because i hear a lot of these words would be like it was a lot of people well hold on [4:57] like what does that mean yeah i'm well i'm explaining it so more people in 35 years than 2000 years that [5:02] sounds like quite a lot of people not necessarily is that fair no not really right in the context like [5:08] if i were to ask for like the total growth of wealth compared to like the last like 50 years [5:12] might also dwarf the last 2000 years or the total amount of carbon pollution or the total amount of [5:17] tv episodes or plays written or songs written like i don't know if i would just arbitrarily say [5:21] i'm going to look at immigration i'm going to measure it past some thousand year thing or whatever [5:25] you don't think that more people coming into a country in 35 years than had come in the previous [5:30] 2000 years is quite a lot i i just think that that statement is like vacuous and meaningless when we [5:35] say quite a lot what like should it have been less like what kind of immigrants shouldn't have come [5:41] what does that mean you're making it into a moral conversation i'm talking about purely numbers you [5:45] might think it's a great thing right like well to be clear i'm not talking just to be clear i'm [5:49] talking moral you said a lot yeah you keep interrupting so okay if we're talking about [5:54] quite a lot you keep trying to make it a moral thing i'm not making a moral thing we're gonna if [5:58] we're gonna have a conversation you're gonna have to let me finish a sentence at least we'll just [6:01] don't misquote my position okay so just calm down for a bit i'm super calm i know you've got your red [6:05] bull just i have my red bull i'm still super calm okay yeah it's a very simple question yeah if more people [6:11] if you're making a moral issue it becomes very clouded and complicated let's just talk about [6:15] what we're talking about in terms of pure numbers right if more people have come into a country in [6:20] 35 years than have come in 2000 years that is objectively a lot now you might think it's a good [6:26] thing like i like ice cream and if i eat a tub of ice cream i'm not going to say that's not a lot of [6:31] ice cream i still like it but it's a lot of ice cream right we'd accept that it's more a scoop is not [6:37] a lot of ice cream a tub is a lot of ice cream so more people coming into a country in 35 years [6:42] than it come in 2000 years is objectively a lot of people okay just to be clear when you say a lot [6:48] that's a normative value that's with respect to some kind of norm or me when you say a lot oh yeah [6:53] the pre yeah yeah compared to before yeah that's objectively yeah that is objectively true it's just [6:59] kind of a meaningless like everything is a lot more than what i'm saying yeah true i'm great correct [7:04] yes that's a meaningless statement but yes now that we've got there um what does it mean well first of [7:09] all think about it like this um and again it's not about whether you you like it or not whether you [7:15] think it's a good thing or not or a bad thing the the three biggest cities in this country uh in the [7:21] in the last 30 years have have ceased to be majority inhabited by the people who are native [7:27] to this land that's just a fact and i am one of the people who's come here in that time so i'm not [7:32] saying it's a a only a terrible thing but it's an objective fact uh the three biggest cities in the [7:39] country are now majority minority uh london and this has happened very quickly london uh was 80 percent [7:45] white british in 1991 it is probably around 30 percent white british today so if you have seen [7:53] that level of change in the city in which you live think about this as well three quarters of the people [7:58] who live in this country today are over the age of 35 so all of this has happened within the lifetime [8:04] of one generation effectively uh that is a level of change that is a completely unprecedented [8:09] be extremely transformative whether you like it or not good or bad whatever you might think you [8:14] might think oh you know the amount of different kinds of food has got better it's true objectively [8:19] but it's also true objectively the entire swathes of this city are no longer inhabited by the people [8:24] who used to live here again this is an objective fact you can like it you can dislike it but that is [8:29] something that has happened this is true of london it's true of manchester it's true of birmingham [8:33] and it's true of several other smaller cities in this country by 2060 according to current projections [8:40] white british people will become a minority in this country 2060 is the next 35 years [8:46] right um and that's the entire kind of demographic transformation these are facts forget about [8:52] people's opinions my opinion your opinion uh in terms of illegal immigration there are now almost [8:57] a million we don't know exactly because it's hard to measure but we have almost a million illegal [9:01] immigrants in britain today uh which for a population of 70 million is quite a lot um and uh we currently [9:09] spend 14 million pounds a day spent i'm not talking about the cost to the taxpayer of having a million [9:15] illegal immigrants here i'm talking about how much we spend to accommodate them and and all other [9:20] things now 14 million is that a lot per day it's quite a lot uh but also this is happening uh at an [9:27] unprecedented rate more people come to britain illegally today than came legally when i came here in 1996. [9:34] i'll say that again more people come here illegally every year than came here in 1996 when i came here [9:41] that's the level of change when it comes to illegal immigration and the cost of it 14 million pounds [9:47] a day is increased by a factor of 10 in the last 10 years alone so it's a thousand percent more than [9:53] what it was those are the facts about immigration so when we talk about immigration and whether it's [9:59] compatible with national identity it depends what we mean if we're talking about if you know 20 30 40 [10:05] thousand people a year highly selective from compatible cultures as it used to be perfectly [10:12] compatible and in fact i think probably quite desirable if we're talking about what we've [10:17] seen over the last 30 years i don't think it's compatible with any sort of national identity at all [10:22] now i've been talking for a long time so we can get to national identity after you've addressed that [10:27] sure so i i guess the thing that is a little bit strange to me about the immigration question is [10:31] sometimes i hear a bunch of descriptions laid out and i don't know exactly what i'm supposed to do with [10:35] them there's oftentimes a lack of a prescriptive statement it seems like there's a little bit [10:39] of fear of committing to any particular idea about what an ideal immigrant would look like [10:43] and then it just it feels like we're sometimes also lumping a ton of immigrants together so for [10:48] instance when we say there have been uh so many more immigrants that have come here in the past 30 [10:51] 35 years but then we also mention like illegal immigrants or asylum seekers these are all different [10:55] groups of people so i don't know what separated them out i know but why immigration and illegal [11:00] immigration i understand but so the prompt it has to do with basically kind of kind of kind of [11:04] countries culture whatever survive mass migration illegal immigrants are not mass migrating here the [11:09] mass migration they are i just told you more illegal immigrants come here every year now [11:15] than legal immigrants came here 30 years ago i understand that but come but if you look at the [11:20] mass migrating so then are the legal ones mass mass migrating or what is it just the legal immigrants [11:25] are also mass migrating it's possible for them but it's like 10 to 1 right so yeah so comparing the two [11:31] is it seems like we're talking about different kinds of we're probably talking about different [11:34] kinds of immigrants we talk about legal versus illegal talking about both yeah well no i'm talking [11:39] about both you don't see any difference between a legal immigrant versus an illegal immigrant well of [11:44] course i do okay but they are both mass migrating here they're both coming here in unprecedented numbers [11:51] everything definitionally is unprecedented as you move forward in years that's we have an unprecedented [11:55] amount of technology an unprecedented amount of energy generation an unprecedented amount of i think you [11:58] might be confused about the meaning of the word unprecedented unprecedented it hasn't happened at [12:03] that level before right so if we have immigration of 20 000 people a year that wouldn't be unprecedented [12:08] because we had that before yeah but the population is growing of the country the population of the rest [12:12] of the planet is growing the economy is growing there's a whole bunch of other factors at play it's [12:16] not like all else equal there's just 10 million people that have shown up like there's other factors [12:21] at play at all points in time as well so it's a bit reductive to say like well we have an [12:25] unprecedented wave of whatever there's unprecedented things happening definitionally every year forward [12:29] into the future we go no no yes what's the thing that's been frozen in time i just explained it to [12:35] you yes you laid out a bunch of numbers and i just explained why they're contextless and meaningless but [12:38] now i'm asking what is the thing that's unprecedented or i'm sorry what would be a thing that is not [12:42] changing in the past 30 years like if you look at one of the most amazing things of arguing with anybody [12:46] from your position is the the extent to which they refuse to understand what words mean [12:51] um i just explained to you repeatedly what unprecedented means it means that it hasn't [12:58] happened before there have been times in the history of this country when its immigration was [13:03] in the tens of thousands and for us to go back to that would not be going back would not be going [13:08] forward to something unprecedented it would be returning to something that we used to do sure [13:13] and my question so what has happened in the last 30 years is unprecedented is there is there anything [13:19] in u.s culture in british culture that has remained the same for the past 30 40 50 60 years for the [13:25] past 100 years that doesn't have an unprecedented thing happening absolutely i mean that that is [13:30] what a culture is it was what is preserved over time how a culture is what people do without having [13:39] been told to do so by law can you yeah but what is what is an example of a culture that is unchanging [13:44] have you how much have you traveled around the world probably more than you probably not okay [13:48] okay so then you should be able to very easily answer well here's an example of a culture that [13:53] exists every time i try and answer your question you keep talking well it's because when you answer [13:56] you ramble and say irrelevant things so my my question how can i ramble in half a sentence [14:01] you've been saying plenty of sentences do you think the speaking time up to this point is even or do you [14:04] think you've spoken more than me i have spoken more than you exactly so that you've had an opportunity [14:08] to speak you're just not answering my question so my question is very simple what's a culture that [14:11] you feel has been unchanged for the past 50 years or what is an example of cultural preservation [14:16] i feel like cultures are evolving all the time it's definitionally a part of culture of course [14:20] cultures are evolving all the time but if you were to be plonked in 1970s afghanistan and 1990s [14:27] afghanistan and 2010s afghanistan and 1950s britain 1970s britain and 2010s britain there would be [14:34] common themes that run through both of those places so that you would instantly recognize i am [14:39] in afghanistan i am in britain would you accept that i agree that different cultures are different [14:45] yeah right well done good so we've got there then well you just you just established that there are [14:50] this is like saying different cultures are different which means that they have something [14:53] about them yes and that makes them different if you have a brother both of you will be different for [14:58] your entire lives but there would be a family culture that you have that's different to other [15:02] families but you wouldn't be the same as you were when you were 10 years old no you grow and change [15:05] right so when you talk about preserving the same person right what you're still the same person yeah but [15:10] you're dramatically changed but you're still the same no are you the same as you were 10 or 15 [15:16] years ago what do you mean by that the same you're not unchanged right are you pretending to [15:22] be a moron or you're actually being one so your claim was that we need to preserve culture because [15:28] cultures aren't supposed to change and then no that's not my claim okay then help me understand [15:33] so i will because because if you don't remember this whole topic started with i'm curious what is [15:37] the thing that is precedented what's the thing that happens continuously through all of history [15:42] that isn't changing and then you pointed to the fact that afghanistan and the united kingdom of [15:46] different cultures like that's something that i would reject no i didn't i was just explaining to [15:50] you what cultures are which are the cultural differences between groups of people that remain [15:54] fairly constant over time despite changing somewhat as all cultures do your definition of [15:59] culture is the difference between your culture and another i gave you my definition you just said you [16:03] said it was the difference between cultures that change over time that define one culture against another [16:07] one okay let's reset okay you talk for a bit and then i talk for a bit and then you talk for [16:12] a bit well no because i noticed that this is how it feels like a lot of these types of people [16:15] the the centrist the reformers the maggot whatever is you you speak you paint with such broad brush [16:20] strokes that by the end of a sentence i feel like you haven't really said much at all and i'm just [16:25] kind of curious why when you guys speak about things like the preservation of culture i don't [16:28] really hear you allude to anything concrete or when you talk about wanting to uh preserve [16:32] something you talk about how something has changed i don't necessarily hear like what are the things [16:35] that are changing that you don't like you'll point to things like crimes but i mean like [16:39] crimes are illegal obviously they shouldn't be happening um i i just don't really hear anything [16:43] concrete ever and it's very unsatisfying to listen to a bunch of people kind of ramble on and on and [16:47] on without ever having a clear point about what they're talking about so i guess i'm just trying [16:51] to figure out for british or american culture what are these things that you feel are common maybe you [16:56] go back 30 40 50 years that were common across the whole country that you feel are changing in a way that [17:00] they never changed in the past done are you going to answer that question he's not going to answer [17:07] the question go ahead i've attempted to answer your question many times and i'll do so again however [17:12] uh first of all am i going to be okay to speak now for a bit is that going to happen sure can you [17:18] repeat my question first so i know what your question is about what is culture you brought up [17:22] crime that wasn't my question my question is over the past 30 or 40 years what are things that have [17:28] changed yeah an american or british culture that you feel over the past 200 years before that were [17:32] unchanging okay uh one of the things that has changed in britain over the last 30 years is we [17:37] now have an extensive number of islamist terrorist attacks mass stabbings uh mass rape of british girls [17:44] by islamist and muslim grooming gangs this is not something that happened in this culture before okay so [17:51] sexual assault and rape did happen before and did you hear the words i said or did so you said gaming [17:56] gangs i know there's the the example from the 80s and 90s or the rothram they're not from the 80s [18:00] 90s they're happening right now what is another grooming gang example because i know there are [18:04] rapes and stuff that happen but i don't think there are yeah well let me explain it to you so grooming [18:08] gangs uh this is a euphemism that we use to pretend that they're not what they are are mass rape gangs [18:16] where young british girls usually underage but also often sometimes young women would be applied with [18:23] drugs applied with alcohol would be taken from the care homes where they were predominantly by pakistani [18:30] sometimes other uh indian subcontinent uh muslims and they would be targeted primarily because they [18:38] were white and british so these were racially aggravated hate crimes um and they would be mass [18:43] raped over periods of years sometimes uh that did not used to happen in britain so that is a cultural [18:49] can i finish what i'm saying okay you're not going to answer my question okay i am answering a question [18:54] well my question was what our example i don't think this has happened outside of the rothram grooming gang [18:59] that whole scandal there have been rapes there have been gang rapes but the idea of like a [19:05] coordinated grooming gang type mass pakistani targeting british girls rapes that type of thing [19:11] is not a thing that i'm aware has been seen in in britain outside of the the large rothram so well i [19:16] don't know i think the fact that somewhere between half a million and a million british girls might have [19:20] been raped by these gangs is quite a big deal and it is represents a change in the culture of this [19:25] country that i think is quite never said it wasn't a big deal i think rape is bad i just think it's [19:29] bad when white people do it too i think it's bad when everybody does it my understanding is right [19:32] now for the crime stance of the united kingdom it tends to be more white people are even over [19:37] represented in terms of sexual assault and rape but i'm aware that there are immigrants that rape [19:41] people as well i think all rape is bad but the idea that there is a mass islamist jihadist rape gang [19:47] centered thing in the united kingdom that's functioning how many how many girls would have to be raped for [19:52] you to admit that it's a mass thing it's the question isn't if it's a mass thing the question [19:58] is if you have a huge problem with definitions i'm sorry let me try to keep this stuck if you're not [20:02] understanding you're not following the conversation steven you rate is bad if organized grooming [20:07] gang you've asked me a lot of questions and every time i answer them they're not really at all but [20:11] now answer my question yeah answer my question if half a million girls have been mass raped in this way [20:18] specifically being targeted because they were not of a particular religion or ethnicity how many of [20:26] them would have to be treated in this way for you to admit that it's a mass thing what's the number [20:33] would make the answer my question wasn't i don't know how you would identify give us a number give us [20:38] a question was organized 500 000 in one so you're right you're right beneath the threshold maybe tomorrow [20:43] you'll have it it's actually the question is it's actually between half a minute it's half a million [20:48] okay so okay i'll ramble for a second and then you can ramble after my issue is because you guys you do [20:53] this thing over and over again where you won't accurately identify a problem you'll invent these [20:57] things because rape isn't bad enough now it has to be like a mass grooming gang rape thing and then what [21:02] happens is you conservatives you play this game where you falsely identify a problem you lie to the [21:06] audience about it and then you manage to gain power you go through with some wacky scheme go figure the wacky [21:12] scheme doesn't fix anything and then somehow you come back with the same recycled narratives over [21:18] and over again asking for another shot at it it's happening right now with farage and reform uh it [21:23] happened with brexit brexit didn't reduce immigration it didn't help you uh with your economy it didn't do [21:27] anything really good for the united kingdom at all and then it's it's happening now with with reform [21:31] coming in and making all of these promises to the british people that you're going to be able to cut [21:35] all of the revenues coming in you're going to be able to increase all of your funding you're going [21:38] to have a no-wait nhs and it's all built on the same lies over and over again that didn't help [21:42] you affect any positive outcomes in the past and it and it's not going to help you affect any [21:46] positive outcomes of the future you can sit here and you can be upset about it but i watched you [21:49] and matt goodwin debate on stage where you guys both made the bold prediction that once the tories [21:53] were out your immigration numbers would be over a million per year they plummeted to 300 000 i haven't [21:58] heard you say anything about that your predictions were completely wrong just as they were with brexit as [22:01] well well that was a wonderful presentation the problem for you is i voted romaine on the referendum [22:18] um because you hadn't been bullied by the cambridge students yet i'm aware of the history but i know [22:24] so i you've come here with a bunch of talking points that's great hold on we can break down [22:30] anything you want don't accuse me of having talking boys stop interrupting stop interrupting then then [22:35] address stop interrupting address what i said stop interrupting address what i've said stop interrupting [22:40] i believe in you stop interrupting i let you talk and i let you make your points have some respect [22:47] for me and for my opportunity to express myself as well that is how a debate is conducted so stop [22:53] interrupting we started this with a conversation about mass immigration and i gave you the facts on [22:58] it and i defined what immigration is right mass immigration now you're talking about culture i also [23:03] explained to you what culture is and i explained it to you by explaining that it's a continuity of [23:09] certain things which may also evolve over time now in terms of your point about mass immigration since [23:15] brexit i was not a supporter of brexit i didn't think it was necessarily a good idea [23:18] uh and i agree with you that it hasn't reduced immigration um but i don't see how that's relevant [23:23] to this conversation we have had mass immigration happen in this country continually over a long period [23:29] of time which has changed the country in the way that i gave you and i gave you a number of examples [23:34] like islamist terrorism like grooming gangs and other things which i don't think you're able to address [23:40] because they counteract the argument that you keep making which is well nothing changes when you bring [23:44] in eight million people over 30 years did i say that can i finish please did i say that can i finish [23:49] can i finish please you you can i can't address anything can i finish please if i interrupted you [23:54] podcast if i interrupted you every time you misrepresent my argument you'd never talk at all for it [23:59] so can i finish please you made the point that i basically what i'm trying to say is not trying [24:05] to say what i'm saying is when you bring in large numbers of people into a country from a different [24:09] culture that will necessarily change the culture the other thing that i explained to you is there's [24:14] been such a large wave of immigration into this country now that has fundamentally changed the sense [24:18] of british people about the place in which they live it is affecting the demographic dynamics of major [24:24] cities in this country and the way people feel about that but all of those things that the fact [24:29] that i gave you about immigration they are what they are you can think that they're good you can [24:33] think that they're bad that is a separate conversation the facts are what they are right there's also a [24:39] thing about how british feel british people feel about it when i came to this country in 1996 [24:44] three percent of the british public thought that immigration was a major concern today about 65 to 70 [24:51] of british people say that there are too many immigrants in this country and too many immigrants coming [24:55] here now i think british people probably have a better idea of how they feel about immigration than [25:01] you stephen and that is how they feel why do you think over half the british population believes that [25:06] the majority of the immigrants here today are here illegally if they've got such a great handle on it or [25:10] a great idea about what immigration is doing to the country uh the reason that people overestimate [25:14] immigration is people generally when asked about things overestimate pretty much everything or [25:18] underestimate things terribly because people are not very good with numbers but the other reason of [25:22] course people uh don't aren't able to quote you the exact number of people who didn't ask for a [25:26] quote of the exact number you said this earlier and i'm addressing your broader point which is why do [25:30] people misunderstand the immigration statistics is that people don't look at immigration off as this [25:36] is the number of people who came this year and this is the number of people who came last year they look [25:40] at the reality of their lives they look at the change they see around them and they what they're really [25:44] concerned about is the cumulative impact of immigration over the period of their lifetime which as i explained to you [25:50] has been huge unprecedented over the last 35 years and will be even more unprecedented in terms of [25:57] its cumulative impact over the next 35 years now it's true that uh immigration has come down to 300 [26:04] or something thousand in the last year doesn't mean it will stay that way but also i never predicted [26:08] it would get to a million i think matt did uh but the the the point i i would make is the transformation [26:14] over a 30-year period is what people actually care about and which is what they're right to care about [26:19] uh now as for the point about illegal immigration yeah it's true illegal immigration is a smaller [26:24] percentage of the total uh immigration that we have than uh legal immigration but it's still higher [26:31] today than it was 35 35 years ago and 30 years ago which is way too high illegal immigration should be [26:38] zero wouldn't you agree with that do we have any final thoughts before we move on to the next yeah i [26:43] mean i i mean every crime should be zero but there's always going to be some amount of crime or some [26:47] amount of illegal immigrants i guess the issue i have is that you know you say why do the british [26:51] people not understand the exact numbers i didn't ask for the exact numbers it's like 10 or 11 million [26:55] to 1 million there are different estimates from from 500 000 to 1.3 million or whatever illegals [27:00] that's a big ratio 10 to 1 to be off by to assume it's it's 50 50 that or that there are more illegals and [27:06] there are legal immigrants here and i think the issue is people in your position or you know people like [27:11] reform or restore depending on how far right you want to go lie constantly about the immigrant population in the [27:16] united kingdom and then as a result of selling those lies to the people you get these ridiculous [27:22] plans or attempts to to fix it all in the united kingdom and because the problem was never as severe [27:27] as it was stated in the first place the problem ends up not being solved and then you exacerbate [27:32] other problems so at the end of the tory government with this attempt with like the rwanda plan this [27:36] idea that you're going to ship people to other you know other countries to have them process first or [27:40] with the idea that leaving brexit would give the uk greater control over their illegal immigrant population [27:45] and the reality is it did just the opposite you didn't have the right to access the same people [27:50] that were trying to claim asylum in the eu and then if they were rejected once there to send them back [27:53] if they came to britain next you you lost access to a lot of these things and then the same people [27:57] that were in charge of pushing those ideas are now telling you and selling you on the idea that reform [28:03] is going to come in and somehow fix the very same issues that they've been lying about and have [28:08] failed to fix in the past and you know you might hear this talking point this cope that well [28:12] reform is different we're not going to be like uh you know the old conservatives but then you've got [28:16] you know all your politicians are going to be mp tories that are defecting to join the new reform [28:20] party so i don't know where all this new blood is going to come from um yeah i don't know it just [28:24] seems like a whole bunch of like here's a fake problem i'm going to put it in front of you there [28:27] is like a real problem here uh regardless of what you said earlier i don't think rapes are good [28:31] mass rates or normal rapes i think there should be some probably cap on what type of immigrants and and [28:36] how many should come to the country i just never really hear a discussion on any of that i just [28:41] hear 500 000 british girls have been gang raped by mass grooming gangs and it wasn't like that when i [28:46] came over in 96 despite the fact that those rothram grooming gang scandals started in the 80s so i just [28:51] i don't feel like i ever hear anything of substance being spoken about well it's a pity we didn't have [28:56] someone from reform on stage so you could rehash your wikipedia talking points to them um i'm you're a [29:03] a reform voter though right no i've never really i've never voted for reform would you would you [29:07] vote for reform in the upcoming election uh depends on who stands in my constituency last election i [29:12] voted for a liberal democrat i didn't ask about last election in the upcoming election will you [29:17] vote for reform i will probably vote for the same person who's a liberal democrat okay so you don't [29:22] think you would support the liberal reform guy i don't know in your constituencies there's no [29:25] particle i'm sorry you won't before you won't support the reform candidate in the in whatever [29:29] upcoming election i don't know what constituency you live in i just told you that at the last [29:32] election i voted for a liberal democrat i know but the reason why you're saying that is because [29:35] you won't answer for the next one stop interrupting stop interrupting stop interrupting yeah go for it [29:41] i just told you that at the last election i voted for a liberal democrat and at the next election i [29:46] intend to vote for him as well i'm just curious you said in the past that you regret or not that you [29:50] regret that you voted um remain for brexit do you think that was a good vote do you think you should [29:54] have remained or do you think brexit was a mistake um i don't regret my vote for for a man no do you think [29:59] brexit was a mistake uh i think we had its negatives and positives yeah like are you sure you're not [30:07] running for a political party right now because i was the most politician answer i've ever heard in [30:10] my life do you think that every decision every decision has trade-offs that are positive and [30:16] negative remember what i said earlier about saying words that mean nothing obviously this is true but [30:20] i'm asking do you think that brexit on net was it a mistake uh i think a lot of people think that [30:24] brexit ruined the economy i'm not asking what a lot of people think i'm asking you on net do you think that [30:29] brexit was a mistake i think it had some things that made things worse and i think it had seemed [30:35] if you were god and you could choose whether or not the uk voted 51 brexit or 49 brexit what would [30:41] you push the button to have had them vote 51 they would brexit or 49 and then they would remain [30:46] in the european union i honestly don't know okay but this so the reason why i ask this question is to [30:51] illustrate i ask this question to illustrate how frustrating it is when people like you say things [30:54] like well i voted liberal last election or i voted remain okay you don't stand by that anymore though [30:58] you constantly do this thing no no you don't you constantly this thing where you come on stage or [31:01] you go on your show and you'll say things like i used to be a liberal but the liberals have changed [31:05] so much or i used to be a leading person i know you've tweeted the dumb picture i know you've done [31:09] it i have changed so much and that now i have to identify with the center right i've heard you [31:13] literally say things like tommy robinson make statements to the left on immigration compared to [31:17] hillary clinton and barack obama does yeah okay he does i've heard you say something right but then [31:21] when i ask them but then you guys say that everybody else has changed and then i ask you about your past [31:25] political votes you won't defend them so it seems like you're the one that's changed which is fine [31:30] but you should just own that i voted remain for reasons that were entirely different from the [31:34] reason that most people voted remain the reason i voted remain is i thought that it would weaken [31:38] europe's ability to stand up to russia i think i've been proven right on that and i think the division [31:43] within europe has made europe weaker in terms of its ability to stand up to russia and i think we've seen [31:48] that so in that respect i think i was right to vote uh remain what i don't agree with is the [31:53] narrative that a lot of people like to spin that uh brexit ruined the economy i don't think that's [31:58] true at all if you look at the way other european economies are performing they're performing even [32:03] worse than the british economy so you know my attempt to give you a nuanced answer is not my refusal to [32:08] stand by my votes it's an attempt to use my brain and give you a nuanced answer now in terms of final [32:13] did you want to wrap up and move on yeah just uh final thoughts on this topic that would be great guys [32:18] uh yeah so final thoughts on this topic i would just recap uh and maybe add one other thing um we [32:24] have had a level of mass immigration into britain uh that has been extremely disruptive over a fairly [32:31] short period of time that has created an environment in which uh major cities in this country are [32:37] effectively no longer uh the domain of the native population of this country which is very um disruptive [32:43] to the people who've lived here i'm not one of them i myself am immigrant but i totally recognize that [32:48] that has happened i think culturally there have been uh some terrible things that have happened i [32:53] mean the example of terrorism and grooming gangs is just one of them uh but the failure of integration [32:58] more broadly uh has been a big problem to the point where you now saw uh in the by-election and [33:03] gorton denton the green candidate campaigning in urdu uh in a foreign language in a language not of our [33:10] country which i think is a signal of the terrible uh divisiveness that is uh we are likely to see [33:17] in other communities uh in other constituencies where some communities haven't integrated at all [33:23] um and i think what that signals is a a kind of you know democracy works when people vote on the [33:30] ideas that are being offered to them not the ethnic and religious background of the candida or the [33:35] things that they will tell them and i think you're increasingly seeing that um so all of these things [33:40] are big worries to me and of course a lot of this would have been much easier to manage if we hadn't [33:45] also at the same time had the doctrine of diversity inclusion and multiculturalism which have [33:52] instead of creating a monoculture into which people are encouraged to buy in and integrate have [33:57] instead created a society in which people are encouraged to see themselves as members of an [34:02] individual community uh which i think is is essentially the end uh of uh of a democratic process [34:11] the way we've understood it to this point uh so i think these are all terrible developments uh and [34:15] if this continues it will only get worse thank you i mean we introduced new things so i don't know [34:23] where i i don't know what the monoculture is i hear what you're gonna have well i mean when we [34:27] introduce new concepts like dei was why liz trust you know helped 700 000 people come to this country [34:33] from mainly non-eu places i just don't know how dei was the policy there from the tories that enabled all [34:38] that mass migration and when we talk about the monoculture you're right i don't know about the [34:41] united kingdom i mean scottish people don't seem like they share monoculture with english people [34:45] i feel like uh rural people and city people don't have much of a monoculture i don't know if they've [34:50] ever had a monoculture i know in the united states we talk all the time about the difference between [34:53] city slickers and the good old people in the in the country and doing the farms and everything [34:58] uh but then we're also simultaneously very concerned about demographic change in the cities [35:02] but then at every other point it seems like the country-related people hate the the urban-related [35:06] culture anyway so yeah i don't know it'd be interesting at some point and maybe at some [35:10] time in your life if you ever wanted to dive into these issues for real maybe on your show [35:13] or with somebody you're more comfortable with who won't challenge you as much uh it'd be interesting [35:16] your conversation about what do these values look like when you talk about changing culture and the [35:20] answer is well some people bring crime that's not culture that's like changing culture would require [35:24] you to identify some fundamental aspect of the culture of a country and then change and then to point [35:29] out to how that fundamental aspect is changing when you say immigrants are coming and a lot of them [35:33] commit crime that's it's just it's just not it's not really a real answer it's not very satisfying [35:37] it's not really getting the heart of the any issues and shall we uh move on to wokeism sure um [35:44] so the question is speaking of culture has wokeism caused harm to the political climate you want to go [35:53] first again um yeah sure i i my question is gonna be the exact same as the last one how do we define [36:00] wokeism and can we name like three woke policies that we think are destroying western culture you're [36:10] a participant in this debate so why don't you define them well the thing is i can't because [36:14] your guys's definitions for everything change at all points in time that's the that's always the [36:18] issue that's always the frustrating thing when it comes to fighting who's us guys conservatives [36:23] i'm not a conservative i know you say you're not but the the conservative identification of wokeism [36:27] and the idea that wokeism whatever that forget about conservatism let's talk about wokeness [36:32] so what would be your definition of workness in the broadest sense usually it's social issues that [36:39] are very very far left of the norm i guess but these positions in the united states at least tend [36:44] to be held such as um it might be certain things related to i mean trans people are obviously the hot [36:51] go-to topic for everybody it might be things specifically related to trans people it might be [36:55] things related to um they call it crt now they call it or there was affirmative action then crt then dei [37:02] it might be um people who are socialists you know about the economy or whatever that means to [37:07] people it really depends on where you're at who would consider what woke or what the conservative [37:10] boogeyman of the day is i don't know what the conservative point of view so your point of view [37:14] is that wokeness is about trans people and dei that seems to be the case when i look at so that's [37:20] your definition i don't i don't i don't define things as a wokism it seems like a really vapid stupid [37:24] definition i would just talk about the issue or the policy i guess your issues with the topic of our [37:28] debate then well no because i think that you obsessively talk about wokeism so it's probably [37:32] a good thing for us to have a discussion i'm asking you to define it so that instead of [37:35] continually asking me questions and then pretending not to understand my answers we actually address [37:40] your argument so if you feel like there's an answer i don't understand you can feel free to ask me [37:43] to explain your answer i can do it with your definition very simple you only need the cognitive [37:47] power of like a nine-year-old to understand them so your your definition of wokeness is again just [37:52] coming back to so the so we're clear about the median view on on social beliefs the things that [37:57] are to the furthest left of the most progressive the most college student young things they tend [38:01] to be around like gender things or um or minority issues or lgbtqi whatever okay this these tend to [38:07] be like things that people don't always woke so what we're discussing in this section of the debate [38:11] is whether far-left politics and progressivism has ruined society is that the discussion yeah sure [38:18] what would you it was the question was on wokeism right the issue is and i got you to define it as [38:23] far-left progressivism yes so insofar as i would define it i don't see it as a major threat at least [38:28] to the united states because i don't think that the people that tend to hold these views have any real [38:32] political power it tends to be college kids and people on twitter but conservatives are very concerned [38:36] about this and they talk about these issues all the time and then they use them to power their [38:40] policies that end up being even more regressive than the the super woke stuff was progressive [38:44] because it wasn't really manifesting in a real way anyway and now i have a country where [38:48] half the states don't really have the ability to get an abortion for women because people thought [38:52] that every four-year-old was being forcibly transitioned to another gender it's my issue [38:55] with it well that's your country and your issue but just coming back to our definition so that we can [39:01] know what we're discussing what you're addressing is has far-left progressive politics had a negative [39:08] impact on our society that's how you understand this discussion correct am i going to say yes here and [39:15] you're going to go i'm glad you agree that wokeism is far left yeah i guess that's yes that would be my [39:18] understanding of this discussion yes so yes good now we know what we're actually discussing so [39:23] uh in terms of its impact i mean one of the most obvious things and i brought what is your definition [39:27] of wokeism i agree with you i agree with your definition okay all right okay i think it's okay [39:32] to agree on a definition to have the discussion right that's that's why i did it so that we could [39:36] agree on the definition okay it felt a little bit more passive aggressive than that but my bad [39:39] well that's your bad yeah okay i just i've worked out the tricks that you play and so i've trapped you in [39:45] your own logic and to be clear the trick that i just played was asking you for the definition of [39:49] a term yes okay gotcha all right that's right i know we don't like that here okay my bad okay go [39:54] ahead exactly right because what you do is you don't define it yourself so that you can then argue with [40:00] my definition for half an hour and so we can't have the actual debate now be quiet and i'll define my [40:05] terms if you want well i'm only going to be quiet i'll define my terms if you want to be quiet but what [40:09] can you guys you took me about 10 minutes to get to define work i'm glad we did it now we can have [40:14] use my definition i'm glad i can now we can have the actual discussion okay now we can have the [40:18] actual discussion so the if your understanding of the question is has far left progressive politics [40:24] made our societies worse i i completely agree with your definition and i agree with the premise of [40:29] the question that it has made things worse for a number of reasons i mean the trans thing uh become [40:34] became a big talking point because it's so ridiculous not because it's so hugely actually [40:38] impactful on society although i do think a small number of children being given puberty block [40:43] is and the even smaller number of children being given gender transition surgery is a terrible [40:48] thing that's happened um i think more broadly though i mean one of one of the most obvious [40:53] examples is we now have a society which uh has i mean it's it's it's not codified and it's not [41:01] expressed in uh you know in the like no one says publicly we now discriminate against these groups of [41:09] people unless occasionally they do so for example the royal air force in this country when they were [41:15] in a recruiting drive they were really struggling to get pilots and there was a woman there who got [41:21] fired from the royal air force because she refused to go along with the policy her supervisor said to her [41:26] we're not hiring any more useless straight white men she said i don't agree with this policy's [41:32] discriminatory and she was fired uh we've had a system of anti-male anti-white uh this has a quick [41:39] question no i'm not finished i'm not finished yet true i'm not finished yet okay um i'm feeling it's [41:46] not but okay so you can this is something you can look up it was covered extensively in the news in [41:50] this country i'm probably wasn't covered that well on wikipedia where you did the research but no but on [41:54] the sun and and all of your favorite publications i'm sure they talked about it a lot no actually it was [41:57] covered extensively across across the minute what they covered was that the royal air force can i [42:01] finish my point steven seem to respond to some things well that wasn't the policy i can tell [42:06] because you're not answering that that was the policy that was pursued by the royal air force it [42:10] was revealed by this whistleblower who was fired for revealing it uh the bbc in this country has [42:14] internships that are not available to white people we effectively have created a system of uh passive [42:21] tacit sometimes open discrimination against different groups of people and one of the reasons that [42:26] the sort of reactionary sentiment which you try and paint me as representing which i don't [42:31] is rising in this country and rising quite quickly uh including ethno-nationalist sentiment [42:37] uh is because of this and the reason i opposed wokeness from the very beginning and [42:41] far-left progressivism from the very beginning was that it was obvious to me that the number one [42:47] consequence of pursuing radical left-wing progressivism and racial essentialism of this kind [42:53] would be that the majority population would begin to pursue identity politics for itself [42:59] if you discriminate against white men and say so openly it's going to be a very short period of [43:05] time before white men look at that and say well if if we're now picking people for jobs based on skin [43:10] color i am the oppressed minority now or i'm the oppressed majority now we need to look after my [43:15] interests and the reason you see the reactionary forces rising both in america in the rest of europe and [43:21] in this country is precisely because they've been pushed into this corner by woke leftists and that [43:26] is one of the major ways that this movement has damaged our society as i predicted all along so i [43:35] would say the least impressive thing about conservative predictions is typically what they'll do is they [43:39] will build their own enemies they will cry about the enemies and then when they manage to convince [43:44] everybody else that those enemies are real and then those people react against those enemies they try [43:47] to say that well it was the enemies in the beginning that caused this particular problem to come about [43:51] and i guess the issue that i have is when it comes to woke related stuff it's hard to find ever like [43:57] what are the particular dei policies or affirmative action policies that we're talking about it's [44:02] always some vague allusion to uh airlines don't want to hire white pilots or they lower their standards [44:07] for for black pilots or or these things that tend to not exist when you actually dig into them now i [44:11] don't know maybe it is the case that the royal air force actually had a policy of not hiring straight [44:15] white men yeah okay i'll look into that i'm curious about that i have a feeling when i look into it it's [44:19] going to be completely untrue like most of the stuff that you bring it up but but i'll look into [44:22] it maybe it was true and you know if it is i would say that that's that that's not a good thing that [44:26] you shouldn't be doing stuff like that but i guess the issue i have is when you talk about magnitude [44:30] i think you you said earlier that sometimes people fix it on these issues a little bit [44:34] too much but it's because they're such common sense issues when i look at the united states right [44:38] now and i think how many trans people are there how many people are doing stuff related to trans [44:42] people this the number of people is incredibly small it's like one percent and the idea that that would [44:47] somehow cause so much of a population to become reactionary that as of 30 minutes ago i'm pretty [44:53] sure iran has tried to bomb like seven different countries because we have a president who is a [44:58] madman who is going on a rampage against the entire world insofar as trade and bombs goes i i just can't [45:04] in my mind rationalize how so many of these smart people in the all say in the center like you who say [45:09] well i can obviously identify that this is a problem why don't you ever identify any of these super [45:13] obvious problems on the right or any of the super obvious problems that are reactionary to the [45:17] other things that were reactionary especially when the issues in the united states on the right [45:21] are represented through every single pylon of power that the conservatives have and on the left [45:26] they're in colleges and and on twitter and facebook and sometimes in ai world on sura this is an [45:34] article from sky news could you just read out what it says please so i see the ai summary here is [45:40] read out the headline well i don't know if there's a headline or if this is a read out the [45:44] headline okay so it says applicants seeking to join raf described as useless white male pilots [45:49] in bid to hit impossible diversity targets do just to be clear just so i can understand thank you [45:59] is this headline the same as no straight white men were hired or they had a policy of not hiring [46:04] straight white but do you want to wait i'm just so curious do you understand the difference between [46:08] somebody not being hired because they're white because they're i'm not going to sit if you're going [46:11] to ask me like do you think there were ever racist people or even against white people of course there [46:14] are but you understand there's a difference between the entire air force having a policy of not hiring [46:19] straight white men versus i guess there was an email where some straight white candidates were [46:24] skipped over i don't even know if it was because they didn't meet qualifications or not they use [46:27] white men to describe them but they also call them useless i don't know if it was because they're white [46:30] or not you know there's a difference between those two things right so you don't know this do you [46:33] know there's a difference between those two things or no yes i do okay thank you okay gotcha [46:37] because i was asking for evidence of mine but you gave me that so like i said initially i had a [46:40] feeling if i looked this up it wasn't going to be what you presented it as yeah no go for it okay [46:45] so you just denied the existence of this and you questioned it i did not deny stop talking you seem [46:51] to have a trouble stop a lot of trouble following what i'm saying okay look the only way to have a [46:56] conversation is when people talk in terms no it's it's not the only way to have a conversation is when [47:00] two people are making a good faith effort to understand each other my question was does the [47:03] raf or did the raf have a policy of not hiring yes straight white men yes you showed me an email [47:08] that said there were they had that were rejected that were called useless white male pilots or whatever [47:13] they rejected applicants in the bid to hit diversity targets which means they discriminated [47:18] against white men in favor of other groups yes but that doesn't mean that in this particular email [47:25] but that doesn't mean that they were not hiring any straight white men i didn't say they were not [47:29] hiring any straight white men i said they were discriminating against them in favor of other people [47:36] to hit diversity targets which were described by the people who were charged with recruiting them as [47:42] impossible to hit in other words they were deliberately undermining both the efficacy and the fair [47:48] treatment of people in their hiring policies because of dei okay so this get in this yeah the position [47:55] of now yes and that's more realistic that there might have been a hiring policy that favored some [47:59] groups of people that weren't white or the white ones right to cause them to get hired when it might [48:04] have been in a blind trial the white people would be hired otherwise yes right do you understand that [48:07] that's significantly different different than you saying the raf had a policy of not hiring straight white [48:11] white pilots first of all i don't know what straight had to do with are you bi if you do you get like [48:15] a special application on the well i i'm sure you you'd want to know the answer to that question but [48:20] i wouldn't because i would never become british jesus christ yeah um so i think i've just look this is [48:28] why i brought up because the idea of a conversation is good faith but if you question anything that i bring [48:34] up that you don't know anything about and then say well i don't believe that this happened and i present you [48:39] evidence that it did happen and then you still continue to deny i don't see how we can have an [48:44] actual debate now i never said the raf hires zero white pilots what i said is the policy of [48:49] discriminating against white men which has been rife in the rest of society has created the situation [48:55] where a lot of people rightly understandably at least feel antagonistic about it that was one of [49:01] the biggest threats with wokeness and that is one of the biggest challenges where we are um you're just [49:06] to your points about trump and all the rest i don't see how it's relevant and i think we're going to [49:09] have a section on trump coming up uh i made the point i think about trans that i think trans uh [49:14] i mean the insanity of some of the things we've been asked to believe which is like you know if [49:18] you say you're a woman you automatically become a woman i think people rightly balk against that [49:23] because it's ridiculous it doesn't mean it's the number one issue i've never said it's the number one [49:26] issue um in fact i pointed out it's quite a minor issue in terms of the number of people affected by it [49:32] but i'm just curious in terms of your shows of all the social issues you talk about do you think [49:37] that the trans stuff is at the top three uh well i don't think we've talked about trans for like [49:44] a year and a half maybe one or two episodes in a year and a half okay do you feel like for [49:48] conservatives in general in the united states do you think that trans is one of the top issues that [49:52] they talk about on all the reform stuff that i looked at trans was listed on a ton of it was in [49:56] the manifesto i'm not a i'm not a republican conservative in america so i don't know what they [50:00] talk about it's up to them well who would you voted for in the last american election who would i have [50:04] voted for donald trump for sure okay so i don't know okay it doesn't mean that you're a conservative [50:09] republican of course it does definitionally so you've you're voting for the conservative republican [50:13] candidate so if you present me with a small pile of and a big pile of and i picked [50:19] a small pile of you go oh you love no if the vote is between a guy who resembles the [50:26] furthest right you can be in so far as how they conceptualize the government and a guy who has no [50:31] brain yeah i'll go with the guy with the brain so yeah kamala harris the person who was a da [50:35] in california who was attorney general in california who served as vice president who was a senator in [50:40] california versus donald trump who brags about taking and passing three cognitive tests in a month [50:45] yeah the dumb person is kamala harris there i look i just explained to you that when you make [50:50] choices between things it's not because you necessarily love the choice you're making if you're [50:55] forced to choose between two things you choose the one that is the lesser evil effect sure i'm just [50:59] curious i i agree with a lot of donald trump's foreign policy sure of course you do i know you [51:04] do because you have a conservative view on foreign policy over the past five years so you do this [51:08] thing where you're like well i have to choose between two things when you've had this same [51:12] choice an election is it's a choice between two things well not in the uk you can vote between a [51:17] lot of things we have two parties yes but i can always educate you and your political system it's [51:20] fine but and so my question is of all these things that you have to choose between at what case [51:25] in the last like five years have you leaned to the left on and would vote for the left on versus [51:29] the right i voted for the left i voted for liberal democrat at the last election and it's likely [51:35] that i will again at the next one i just told you this for what about for in terms of like [51:40] supporting major issues how many like lib left candidates i guess you guys have on your show or [51:43] do you talk to or support as many as will come on does that mean zero or how many okay because i [51:49] know like um i know faraj has been on a ton i know you've done a lot of content with goodwin [51:53] um okay they're not far left right but we've also they're right yeah we've also had the co-founder of [52:00] extinction rebellion who's currently in prison for blocking roads on the show we've had aaron bastani [52:05] who's the co-founder of navara media a far left news organization in this country we've had a bunch [52:11] of i mean i i could go down the list for ages if you want if that's what i mean i've seen like the top [52:16] 10 lists of like the people you've invited the most on are all generally we had comedian mark [52:20] steel who's a lefty we had deborah francis white from the guilty feminist lefty for these people [52:25] they're populist lefties that think that the whole institution is rotted and they don't support it [52:29] actively so the guy you just described is he like a labor voter would he support labor as he supported [52:34] labor which guy mark steel he's a long life lifelong labor voter yeah well then you get credit for that [52:38] one i guess okay i haven't seen every episode of trigonometry i'm sorry okay well maybe you should [52:43] stop opining about who we have on then if you haven't seen every episode of trigonometry i don't think [52:47] i should have to watch every single episode of trigonometry to have a rough idea you should know [52:51] who we have on on the show regularly before you make a joke i have a decent idea no you don't you've [52:56] just demonstrated i haven't seen i haven't seen you i demonstrated i don't know every single person [52:59] that goes on right like you haven't made a twitter video saying okay well call me left wing now you did [53:04] make one saying well fine i'll be right wing now like so there's clearly you lean in a certain [53:07] direction clearly people perceive you why do you think everybody perceives you as being right wing then if [53:11] you're so centrist or you why does the bbc think i'm right wing why does everybody on my side at least [53:16] everybody perceives you as being right wing because it's convenient for you as you've [53:19] demonstrated in the course of this conversation in what way i'm about to explain if you just stop [53:24] talking i hope you actually explain i will okay we'll see just be can you be quiet while i do my [53:29] mic is down okay good filibustering so it's convenient to you in exactly the way that you've demonstrated [53:34] throughout this conversation where when i make a good point about anything you say you conservatives and [53:39] then you pivot to talking about republicans in america because it suits you because then you can argue [53:45] against things you came here prepared to argue against instead of arguing with what i'm actually [53:49] saying what is it you feel like i haven't first of all i'm pretty sure the debate topics were related [53:53] to america um number one they were number one that's okay um number two what is a question that [54:00] you feel like you've said that i accused you of being a conservative and then i pivoted and i didn't [54:03] respond to your point every single thing we've discussed name one of them then every single thing [54:07] we've discussed immigration what did i not respond to for immigration you didn't bring up a point you [54:12] said a bunch of descriptions you're like well this is true and then that was it keep talking over me [54:15] which means we're not actually having a discussion because i'm asking you for an example and you're [54:18] trying to filibuster i'm about to give you one if you just stop in one point that i didn't respond [54:22] can you just stop interrupting go ahead give me the point can you just stop interrupting i'm not [54:25] even interrupting i'm waiting for you not interrupting means when i finish when i say [54:28] something you don't talk after that can you do that now okay okay okay go ahead there you go on every [54:38] single thing that we've discussed immigration national identity just one thing you're not having [54:44] this is you're not having a conversation i guess i didn't expect you to check out this early but [54:49] i'm asking is there a single point you feel like i haven't responded to with substance and you're [54:53] saying everything because you realize you don't have to have this conversation by yourself you're [54:56] welcome to but i feel like i am you are yeah i know i am yes i know i am i feel that way yes yeah i'm [55:01] speaking to the copy paste your talking points and i can't get an actual answer out of you for anything i can [55:12] give you better answers if you're looking for them you know yeah it's it's crazy to me that you guys [55:20] cry about wokeism and snowflakes and all this stuff so much but like you guys do it all the time you [55:25] made the claim that i'm avoiding answering any of your arguments because i'm calling you a conservative [55:29] i think you are a conservative and i labels you as such but i'm not dodging your arguments there's [55:33] not a point you brought up that i refuse to address that's why i asked you for an example of one [55:37] and you weren't able to give one and that's fine if you're not able to give one but then don't [55:40] continue to filibuster and make the claim just say okay well i guess maybe that was an unfair thing i said and [55:44] here's a point that i'm going to make that i would like you to address that would be the time where [55:47] you would say here's the thing that i brought up you pivoted and you didn't address that particular [55:51] thing that would be a thing you could do if i was actually dodging and pivoting from all your points [55:54] i can't hear any you're going to have to shout louder russian agent what does that mean so you're [56:21] saying that because i'm from russia and i have opinions you don't like i'm a russian agent why are we [56:28] debating the crowd right now i'm still here can you really not answer my questions that much [56:33] not very clear is that what you're saying let's uh let's not yell out questions from the audience [56:39] let's not get into that let's try to let the dialectic uh get back on track here simple question [56:45] what do you feel like i haven't addressed uh every single thing that we've discussed okay let's run [56:56] it down so you said i didn't address immigration right my point on immigration is that you guys have [56:59] fear-mongered about immigration and every single policy that you've tried to enact has every time you [57:03] say you guys you've already lost the argument because you're not arguing with me okay well i [57:07] asked you for a clear uh stance on whether or not you thought i was very clear on that you literally [57:12] said you would not answer the brexit question when i asked if you were god you could push a button you [57:15] literally said well i don't know why i couldn't do that immigration immigration not brexit immigration [57:22] sure well brexit was a part of the immigration argument right not for me for the majority of the oh my god [57:29] i'm sorry it's okay i what what questions you even posed to me with regards to immigration you [57:37] feel like i didn't answer i don't think you even posed a question to me what you failed to do we we [57:43] started this bit of the come just listen okay just put the microphone down and listen i'm listening put [57:47] the microphone down for a moment and listen i'm gonna hold it right here and you carry on i'm not [57:52] going to talk if you keep interrupting me i'm not interested in this whatever this is you are i'm [57:56] literally not i'm asking you a question you just refuse to answer this is the game how did i do it again [58:01] i'm asking you a clear question you can't give me an answer i'm not going to talk to you unless [58:06] you listen to what i'm saying as well as me listening to what you're saying i am listening [58:09] okay good so we started this bit of the conversation right talking about the exchange that we just had [58:18] that's what we were talking about right and you made your points and i tried to make my points and [58:23] you keep it interrupting and talking over me right i've addressed immigration and i've addressed [58:28] every single other thing that you brought up and the moment i do what you do is you say well [58:32] you conservative says this you conservative say that in order that you can then argue with things [58:38] that i haven't said and that is exactly what you've done throughout this whole thing so when you ask me [58:43] why do people say that you're a conservative it's because it's much more convenient for them than [58:48] addressing the arguments that i'm actually making and you've demonstrated that throughout this entire [58:53] discussion that answers your question okay what is the argument that you're making with specificity to [58:58] immigration what does constantine's ideal immigration policy for great britain look like [59:04] and who has supported their their vision for immigration to the united kingdom uh sorry i because [59:11] i jumped in second part yeah who have you supported historically over the past 10 years whose idea for [59:19] immigration i guess have you supported policy wise politician wise who would you support right now [59:23] what is your ideal vision for immigration to the united kingdom yeah it's a very good question so my ideal [59:27] vision for immigration in this country would be something like uh probably 40 to 50 000 people a year [59:34] highly selective which means that you really have to qualify in terms of your skill set uh ticking all [59:40] sorts of other cultural compatibility age and so all sorts of other things that basically mean you're [59:46] likely to be a very positive net contribution to the country you're probably going to have a a the [59:51] ability to earn and pay more tax than you receive and benefits over your lifetime uh you are unlikely to [59:57] commit crime you're unlikely to become a terrorist you're unlikely to do things that we wouldn't want [1:00:02] you to do you would be highly selective i think i would definitely prioritize immigration from people [1:00:07] from countries not from countries really but from people who already speak the language who maybe have [1:00:12] a cultural familiarity so hong kongers are a good example of this right uh these are people who are [1:00:17] formerly part of the british empire speak the language they're able to come over integrate very easily [1:00:23] and make a good contribution so something like 40 to 50 000 people a year uh but again you know [1:00:28] it's a democratic thing so if the british people vote to have zero immigration that's their right if [1:00:32] the british people want to have 300 000 people come a year that's their right the part of the problem [1:00:37] we've had with immigration in this country wait can i ask just no no just let me just finish this [1:00:40] bear and then you can ask whatever you want a part of the problem we've had with immigration in the [1:00:44] last 30 years is despite the fact that people keep voting against mass immigration of the kind that [1:00:50] we've had they keep voting for parties that promise to reduce it in 2010 and 2015 and 2016 [1:00:57] in 2017 and 2019 and in 2024 in all of those elections immigration was a major issue and the [1:01:03] british people overwhelmingly voted against what we have today despite that fact we've actually had the [1:01:08] opposite of what they voted for so i want managed highly selective low numbers high compatibility and [1:01:15] i wanted to be in line with the democratic wishes of the british people okay so so then a statement [1:01:23] and then a question so i would argue that the reason why people have voted for lower immigration and they [1:01:28] haven't gotten the lower immigration is because i don't think people tend to vote for higher or lower [1:01:32] immigration i think that people vote for where they feel problems are and i feel like people sometimes [1:01:36] scapegoat immigrants as a class of people for why these problems exist so if housing is high you vote for [1:01:42] less immigrants or if uh job the job market is bad you vote for less immigrants or if the nhs wait times [1:01:48] are too high you vote for less immigrants or if brexit is losing too much sovereignty whatever you vote for [1:01:52] less immigrants i feel like when it comes to these issues that the immigrants become this catch-all [1:01:56] scapegoat which i'm not even saying and again you know you can label me however you want but like i'm [1:01:59] not a woke person when it comes to immigration i don't think there's anything wrong with being selective [1:02:02] against certain groups of people but i think that the reason why there's such this pressure for the the [1:02:07] government the majority government to have more immigrants come in is because they know that as much as [1:02:11] people might feel a certain type of way about certain types of immigrants that the collapse of [1:02:15] the nhs or the collapse of the education system or the collapse of the local economy is going to be [1:02:21] worse than allowing more people to come in and work those jobs so i guess my question is and i'm pushing [1:02:28] with the degree of specificity because you speak about these issues a lot when you say selecting for [1:02:32] certain values like what is it what would that test even look like when you say selecting for certain [1:02:37] values what are the values that you're selecting for number one and number two you mentioned like they [1:02:40] have to speak the language and it should be like highly skilled people that can contribute net tax [1:02:44] positives to the economy let's assume that you met the threshold for all of these things why cap it [1:02:48] at 30 or 40 000 if they can integrate perfectly if they speak the language of those why not have [1:02:52] like 100 or 200 or 300 000 of these people coming in uh it's a very good question uh for me i am less [1:02:58] attached to the numbers i just think where culturally britain is at the moment is what that's what the [1:03:02] british people would want uh for me it's uh the numbers are uh you know joseph starlin said quantity has [1:03:09] equality all of its own and i think there's there's a truth to that which is once you have very large [1:03:14] numbers of people coming over a short period of time it is disruptive um for the reasons we've [1:03:19] already discussed and it also can put pressure on infrastructure the reason by the way we haven't had [1:03:24] the policy on mass immigration that the british people voted for isn't uh that i mean i agree with [1:03:29] you of course there are some people who scapegoat immigrants uh to explain the problems that society [1:03:35] has and i don't agree with scapegoating immigrants that doesn't mean mass immigration is necessarily [1:03:40] good one of the problems with mass immigration is it's effectively been used in europe to cover [1:03:45] up the fact that our economies are not growing our economies are shrinking on a per capita basis we [1:03:50] we are poorer per capita in this country today than they we were before the financial crisis and the [1:03:56] reason we haven't had uh the policy of uh controlled mass immigration controlled immigration that people [1:04:02] keep voting for is that bringing in more bodies is the only way politicians can pretend our economy [1:04:08] is still growing that's actually the main reason that this has been happening okay so again so i guess [1:04:15] my question is what are what are the values or what are the things that you would select for when you [1:04:20] talk about like a values-based test for people coming to the country like what are the things you're [1:04:24] talking about and then also just a comment on you know the reason why we're bringing in immigrants is [1:04:28] to shore up an economy i think a lot of that has to do with the boomer generation as well that you had a lot [1:04:32] of people come back from wars or say for wars i guess for your guys the case but in the united [1:04:36] states we say come back and then you had this aging population that had a ton of kids and now these [1:04:39] people have all hit a certain age so you're kind of this weird demographic age thing which is why [1:04:44] they're bringing in a bunch of younger workers now to kind of fix that issue because you've got a lot [1:04:47] of benefits and uh you know your triple lock pension whatever else all these things social [1:04:51] security in the united states yeah well that's part of it but the problem is if you're bringing [1:04:55] people who are net consumers of tax revenue then you're not solving that problem you're making it worse [1:05:01] right and that's what's been happening in the uk so when you have mass unskilled or very low skilled [1:05:06] immigration and plus lots of dependents you're actually bringing in people who are then going [1:05:11] on benefits in this country which i don't i have no idea why it is in this country that we allow [1:05:16] foreign citizens to receive benefits it doesn't make any sense to me but what happens is you then [1:05:21] effectively are bringing net consumers of tax revenues and you're making that problem worse which is [1:05:27] why i say it isn't that it's the fact that politicians are able to pretend that we are [1:05:32] growing i mean the british economy is growing below like 1.1 or whatever it is it's still not [1:05:37] even growing even on that basis but the reason they bring in lots and lots of people is so that [1:05:42] they can add to the total tax base without having consideration of what happens when you divide that [1:05:48] by the number of people which is you're getting poorer okay so then let's say that everything you just [1:05:52] say is true and i would agree that bringing in people to consume welfare now i can't speak to the [1:05:57] exact immigration schema that you have in the united kingdom but let's assume that that is happening [1:06:02] then why not speak to changing those policies rather than attacking the concept of like well you know [1:06:08] 200 000 people came in and they're all leeching from the welfare why not just say that you know if [1:06:12] people want to try to immigrate we'll do this however we're gonna forbid people from qualifying for [1:06:16] this much welfare in the united states you have to make a certain amount of money to qualify for visas or [1:06:20] uh you know long uh permanent resident cards green cards or whatever why don't i ever hear a [1:06:24] conversation about that changing the incentives well that's exactly what i advocate for all the time [1:06:30] that's literally what i say every time i talk about immigration okay that's good but because [1:06:34] i feel like i just heard you talk a lot about it it was just reducing the number high skilled only [1:06:38] reducing the number but having like a cap the thing you just described is literally what i advocate [1:06:42] for on a daily basis okay i hear you talk a lot about the other stuff but maybe i've just happened to [1:06:47] miss those things the thing that i i what i believe about immigration one of the problems is [1:06:52] because for the reasons we've already discussed when when you've had this open border policy combined [1:06:57] with you know the mantra diversity is our greatest strength you build up a lot of resentment with [1:07:02] other people uh against immigrants um and the reason people you see people now on the internet talking [1:07:08] about oh you know britain's been colonized and britain's been invaded i don't like that language i [1:07:13] understand why people use it but i don't like it um and the reason i don't like it is i don't blame [1:07:18] people for wanting to come to britain britain's great of course they'd want to come here i believe [1:07:24] that what we need to do is change policy so that the british government and doing is doing things [1:07:28] that are in the interest of the british people and it's not in the interest of the british people for [1:07:32] us to be spending 14 million pounds a day on illegal immigrants it's not in the interest of british [1:07:37] people to be housing clothing and feeding people who've come here from other countries who are not [1:07:43] british citizens and who are not paying tax here we shouldn't be we shouldn't have foreign nationals [1:07:48] in social housing we should not be providing benefits to foreign nationals and i say this as [1:07:52] someone who was very poor and a foreign national for quite a significant portion of my life in this [1:07:57] country so i advocate for sensible policies on immigration on what happens when you get here [1:08:03] that is my position which is why uh you know with all respect i'm glad we a normal conversation is broken [1:08:09] out uh between us despite the the conversation we were having earlier because i this is the reason [1:08:16] i don't subscribe to political parties and this sort of team-based agenda because every political [1:08:22] party has lots of things about its policies that i don't like i don't like lots of things about left [1:08:27] and right political parties i like to advocate for the things that i believe are positive for this [1:08:32] country i think a positive carefully selected uh immigration policy and then putting the interests of [1:08:38] british people who are already here who are nationals of this country first is exactly what we should [1:08:42] be doing so i'm glad i'm glad we agree on that yeah so i don't necessarily disagree with anything [1:08:47] you've said but one of the issues with the statement of like i don't subscribe to a certain political [1:08:52] party i think that you can have a a i don't know a constellation of ideas that don't map cleanly onto some [1:08:59] side but when it comes down to elections or when it comes down to pushing people to vote in an election [1:09:03] you kind of have to choose a party or you have to choose a person things have to collapse into one choice [1:09:07] sure and i guess i mean you can tell me if i'm wrong but the the feeling that i get from from you [1:09:14] from the things that i've heard you say is that if i were to look at the past 20 years of british [1:09:20] politics and if immigration was a huge issue that i had with this country i feel like the conservatives [1:09:26] have failed monumentally in dealing with the immigration issues of course i feel just like labor [1:09:31] before them yeah sure but i feel like the prediction was that labor was going to continue to fail massively [1:09:35] on it and it seems like labor hasn't failed it seems like starmer for all of his faults i know [1:09:40] you guys all hate him um but it seems like his government has done a good job at cutting heavily [1:09:44] into the amount of rumors coming over cutting heavily through the backlog of asylum seekers that you had [1:09:48] that the tories refused to deal with but now on the on the eve of all these tories beginning to look [1:09:54] like they're going to flip to reform i feel like all of the people who are opposed to the mass migration or [1:09:59] mass immigration narrative are going to try to support reform when all of these people have [1:10:04] seemed to fail to deliver on these reduction of immigration promises over and over and over again [1:10:08] and that's just very confusing to me i don't understand that yeah well let me explain it to [1:10:11] you i mean it's a fair critique so first of all the labor your point about you know labor parties [1:10:17] reduce the numbers it's not quite how it works but yeah the numbers are lower uh they're still very high [1:10:21] i mean this is why i kept bringing up the point about what was happening in this country 30 years ago when [1:10:26] i first came here um the numbers of people coming then were about 40 to 50 000 a year uh 55 000 i [1:10:32] think in 1996. it's still like 300 something thousand now which is way too high um particularly [1:10:38] given the cumulative impact of mass immigration that we've had um so both labor and the lip well [1:10:43] not both labor the labor the lip dams and the conservatives have all failed on this all the [1:10:47] mainstream politicians have failed on this for the reasons that i gave you sure and let me address [1:10:51] the point about reform like the labor failed the labor or the the conservative party the tories [1:10:55] failed far far far more no uh it started with the blair government so more people came uh under the [1:11:01] blair government let me just no i understand i i we're going boris wave after it seems like the [1:11:06] tories failed hardcore they both failed in exactly the same way okay so you would say as of right [1:11:11] now if you could flip a coin and have uh the tories continue okay versus the labor government that [1:11:16] they would both perform the same on immigration uh i think probably very likely similar yeah absolutely [1:11:23] how would we feel that way what's the evidence of that sorry what would be the why would we feel [1:11:26] that way what would we look to in reality that would inform that i think the numbers were going to [1:11:30] come down whoever was in charge i don't think the numbers this year have come down because the labor [1:11:35] government has come in i think they were likely to come down anyway uh my point is something else [1:11:39] immigration under both governments is way too high uh particularly given its cumulative impact over [1:11:45] time uh but your point about um you know a few tories defecting to reform uh it's not all these tories [1:11:52] it's uh like three or four people in terms of the mps uh they were all people who would have been [1:11:57] pretty hawkish about immigration and uh when they were in power tried to do something about it and were [1:12:03] prevented from doing anything about it by their own party which is why they're now moving to reform [1:12:08] um so yeah i've voted uh i think i voted for the party i voted most for in my in my life are the [1:12:16] liberal democrats second most would be labor uh i think i might have voted yeah i think i voted [1:12:22] conservative once uh and yeah i've never voted reform so okay i i guess when i look at here's a question [1:12:32] i guess when it comes to the immigration thing let's say that for the next five years um we could float [1:12:37] this idea of capping immigration at 30 or 40 000 per year to the uk but it would mean a i won't say [1:12:45] severe but somewhat of a degradation or a continued aggregation of the services that the nhs provides [1:12:50] and then an increase in the cost of education that the costs are going to continue to go up [1:12:54] but we can cut the amount of immigrants coming in as a result of that do you think that's a trade [1:12:58] is it a trade that you would support and do you think it's a trade that most british people would [1:13:01] support i definitely think it's a trade that most british people would support but i also don't think [1:13:05] that uh that that is actually what would happen i mean first of all given the decline in in birth [1:13:11] rates that we are now seeing schools are shutting anyway so you don't need foreign foreign teachers [1:13:16] to teach british children that's not really happening in terms of foreign students for money right hold [1:13:21] on but oh you mean for you for universities yeah yeah i mean foreign students are coming in and paying [1:13:27] fees and then going back to their country i think it's totally fine i've got no problem with that we're [1:13:31] exporting in british service no issue with that at all but in terms of uh the nhs i i do think um [1:13:39] you would have a short-term impact on the nhs but we have to train british people to do those jobs [1:13:43] uh inevitably so and that short-term impact will be disruptive but it will be worth it [1:13:49] um so but but my broader point to you about mass immigration beyond specific shortages and specific [1:13:55] industries which by the way are exaggerated you gotta remember right in what is effectively a market [1:14:00] economy when you have a shortage of labor what that does is it increases the wages that people [1:14:05] are willing to offer people to do those jobs and that then creates more people who come in and do [1:14:10] those jobs so but it also increases the cost of those services yeah of course but but but because [1:14:14] british people are being paid properly to do those jobs to me that's a trade-off that's perfectly worth [1:14:19] it across well the cost will ultimately rise more than the there will be a concentrated industry that [1:14:24] might be paid a little bit better but the cost overall of the things like the wages for british [1:14:28] people will go up which will help them to be able to afford other things that they want right i am [1:14:33] perfectly happy for british nhs staff and doctors to be paid better wouldn't you agree with that [1:14:39] well i think the question would be is it worth the trade-off of a degradation of of nhs services which [1:14:44] i don't i don't know that it would lead to a long term i think short term of course it would [1:14:48] be disruptive i don't think long term it would lead to a degradation of nhs services at all [1:14:52] you would have i think the last highly paid workforce of british people who are trained [1:14:57] in this country to be doctors and nurses i think that would be incredible and that's what we should [1:15:01] be aiming for but but the broader point i'm making to you is take out take the nhs and other shortages [1:15:07] that you might create in this way out of it the bulk of the people who've come over the last 30 years [1:15:12] are not supporting themselves financially to the point where it's worth our time bringing them in [1:15:18] and that's the problem even the bulk of the legal immigrants you don't think are worth it financially [1:15:22] or economically the bulk of mass the the wave of low skilled uh and no skilled immigration and [1:15:28] dependence that we have had is not economically beneficial to us we should be welcoming people [1:15:34] in who are economically beneficial and as part of the ways that we've had over the last 30 years [1:15:39] some of those people have been economically beneficial great let's bring those people in but let's not [1:15:44] bring in hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who are net takers of tax revenue and also [1:15:50] are more likely to be you're doing other things that we don't want so let's do yeah just a quick [1:15:56] question what do you think then is the incentive of of a conservative government to bring in more [1:16:01] immigrants if not to desperately fill jobs that they feel are the economy is going to be lacking [1:16:06] yeah but when i when i check to pretend the economy is growing when it's not that's the incentive but if [1:16:11] they're net takers of everything wouldn't this this would increase your your debt and your deficits [1:16:15] it would hurt well no what happens the way they think about is like this let's say that you're a [1:16:20] family you've got a wife two kids right and you have a total household income of a hundred thousand [1:16:24] pounds okay uh and your wife says we need to grow a household income let's bring my let's bring my parents [1:16:31] and let's bring the in-laws in they earn 20 20 000 a year collectively together so you bring in now your [1:16:37] household income is 120 000 except you now have to divide it among six people instead of four people [1:16:43] that's what they've done they are the wife that says let's bring the in-laws in so we can pretend [1:16:47] the household income so i understand the analogy but but i feel like it would be more you have a [1:16:52] household of four people and then there's also some kind of work that needs to be done maybe you need [1:16:56] grandma to knit and you need grandpa to mow the grass or something and you can't afford to do it you [1:17:01] have to hire out somebody else to do it yeah but you can't pretend you're getting richer you're getting [1:17:05] poorer because you now have to feed two more people yeah but if you didn't bring those people [1:17:08] in the cost for everything would be so much higher than at the end of the day it wouldn't it wouldn't [1:17:13] okay there's a mean question but just to push because like this is just frustrating because well [1:17:17] but the but in every single part of the world where this is tried it is the case that bringing [1:17:22] in even low-skilled immigration bolsters every part of your economy with some exceptions um especially [1:17:28] in europe and the uk where you have weird rules around like asylum seekers not being allowed to work [1:17:32] for a year for whatever reason which i think is a whole other issue to bring up but this idea that [1:17:36] if we just cut off immigrants all of our native people can just work these jobs and it'll be fine [1:17:41] like i hear this rhetoric from so many people all over the world and it this has never worked anywhere [1:17:45] ever well if if bringing in eight million people as we've done boost your economic growth and why [1:17:51] aren't we growing well i think i think brexit hurt quite a bit number one we're doing better than european [1:17:57] other european countries which by the way have also done mass immigration the reason i'm pointing [1:18:02] it out your goal wouldn't be to other european countries your goal would be compared to where [1:18:06] the united kingdom could be otherwise and i know that for all of your issues with eu immigrants from [1:18:11] eastern europe or whatever you've basically replaced all of those now with a high amount of just indian and [1:18:16] pakistani immigrants which you know earlier seemed like the ones you had the biggest problems with so it [1:18:19] seems like in terms of immigration or getting the types of labor that you would want to this country [1:18:24] that that was pretty significant brexit didn't do on immigration what people wanted it to do yeah [1:18:29] so one of the reasons i didn't vote for just remember sure yeah okay should we move all right [1:18:34] yeah um let's move on to the next topic is trump's approach to political issues dictatorial or reflective [1:18:45] of democratic consensus yeah i think um i mean almost definitionally donald trump views himself as a guy who [1:18:54] should be able to operate the entire executive branch just through the white house um there's [1:18:59] a number of examples of this i mean we can run through any of these i'm not entirely sure what [1:19:03] your position would be on this i'd be surprised if if it was anything different but yeah you can [1:19:07] tell me or i can i can i can define more things or whatever if you that would make you comfortable [1:19:11] first i guess well yeah maybe you can define dictatorial for us actually sure so when i think of [1:19:18] dictator i think of single man type rule where there's a single person who feels like they have more [1:19:22] legitimacy well i would say than the other branches of government but but he would be the [1:19:26] government essentially so i would say examples of this are the way that donald trump treats his [1:19:29] supreme court um i would say that the way that he's i'm sorry to interrupt just define i just [1:19:34] couldn't quite hear it so it's a single person who feels he has more legitimacy more more can can [1:19:40] enact power through his will alone basically at his will alone yeah so he doesn't have to follow the law [1:19:47] he feels like he's above the law he's above the law he feels or he's acting like you know somebody in [1:19:52] audience might feel like they're above the law but it doesn't make them a dictator right no but it would [1:19:56] make them dictatorial if someone in the audience thinks they're above the law that would mean [1:20:01] they're dictatorial yeah it would be a dictator personality they might not be a dictator because [1:20:04] i don't have the power to be a dictator okay and if someone is say the president and they can be voted [1:20:10] out and they will be voted out would they still be considered dictatorial yeah they could have yeah they [1:20:15] could be dictatorial yeah of course even if they can be voted out yes really yeah to me a dictator is [1:20:22] someone who just basically retains power including by force if you can be voted out how can you be a [1:20:29] dictator well i mean you have some people who will change their voting systems in order to [1:20:34] be elected over and over again putin fair sure or yeah sure yeah but but if you can be voted out [1:20:41] in a free and fair election then can you still be a dictator you could i mean you could nominate the [1:20:47] next person in line to be the next king or president um i i think that donald trump like [1:20:52] that's why i said free and fair election right sure which i mean they're also trying to actively [1:20:56] impede right now but do you think that if donald trump was 20 years younger he keeps making these [1:21:01] references to running for a third term do you think he would try to run for a third term yeah i think [1:21:04] the fact that he keeps referencing a third term is a disaster and i think you should definitely [1:21:08] stop doing yeah i think it's dictatorial uh yeah i agree okay yeah yeah so i say he's a pretty [1:21:15] dictatorial guy yeah uh i think well i i think that see here's the issue with that right is trump talks [1:21:23] a lot of shit and he likes to piss people off uh and so he he says these things uh and you kind of [1:21:29] go well it's 99.999 that he's trolling wait is it hold on hold on just let me lay out my argument [1:21:36] we've established that we're actually able to have a conversation so let's have one um so 99.999 [1:21:42] this is my assessment anyway he's trolling 0.0001 he's talking about a third term not good uh and i [1:21:51] regard particularly given what happened on january the 6th uh the fact that he keeps referencing a [1:21:56] third term is as a problem and is something that indicates that the risk of him trying to [1:22:03] do whatever it is he might do when that happens is non-zero which to me would be absolutely [1:22:08] dictatorial however i do lean on the idea that it's probably just trolling in terms of everything else [1:22:14] he's doing domestically what i see is the american system of checks and balances working as intended [1:22:20] uh he is doing things some of them are illegal the legal system pushes back against that the [1:22:25] supreme court in which three of his own appointees sit on and three of the other six are republican [1:22:32] appointed judges regularly and repeatedly deny him the opportunity to do things that he wants to do [1:22:38] um that i think is how the system is supposed to work isn't it so no but i would also say that for [1:22:44] the first part i don't know where 99.999 of trump's statements are trolling i don't know where that [1:22:49] comes from i feel like that specific statement about a third term i suspect is 99.9 trolling that [1:22:57] you said earlier if he was young enough he would run for a third no i didn't say that oh i thought [1:23:00] you said you feel like you were no i didn't say that i think that if he was 20 years i agree that [1:23:05] him talking about a third term is a worrying thing that he should stop doing that's what i agree with [1:23:10] okay that that might be that on that issue but then there are a load of other issues where it seems [1:23:16] like he feels like he alone is entitled to make these decisions that nobody else ought to have [1:23:21] any oversight over so for instance this idea that the president has usurped from the congress the [1:23:27] ability to do tariffs and worldwide economic policy is that's a pretty uniquely trump thing that you can [1:23:33] levy tariffs across every other country in the world the supreme court has finally checked him a bit [1:23:38] on that power now he says he's going to go elsewhere and try to do the exact same thing so it seems like [1:23:42] we're just going to have a back and forth on this um maybe until he's out of office that's isn't [1:23:47] sorry to interrupt but just i think this is worth double clicking on that's what that's one that's [1:23:51] why i said that is the system working as intended so american democracy is robust and strong because [1:23:57] when the president tries to do things he's not allowed to do by law the legal system prevents him [1:24:01] from doing that right no no so i think that the american system is strongest when everybody is trying [1:24:06] to act in good faith within the bounds of the system i don't think continuously when was the last [1:24:10] time that happened joe biden i mean if you want we can i mean we can run a whole host of issues [1:24:20] so i would look at like the weaponization of the department of justice by donald trump i think is [1:24:24] a historically crazy thing by a u.s president if you want to give me any examples that you feel would [1:24:29] stack up to that between biden obama and the clintons over the past 30 40 years i didn't i didn't [1:24:34] say that donald trump is not doing things that uh shouldn't be challenged legally what i said is i think [1:24:40] it's the part of the american system that all these different branches compete for power in the [1:24:45] way that has been prescribed uh in your founding documents and that is an ongoing process that [1:24:50] has been going on for 250 years uh you i there's definitely criticisms that you could make about [1:24:56] trump i think there's plenty of criticisms that people could make about previous presidents of both [1:25:00] a democratic and republican i what i'm saying is whatever you may think about donald trump i don't [1:25:06] think american democracy is a threat because the system is working as intended and if he was truly [1:25:11] dictatorial the the signal for me of a president being dictatorial is when they override the checks [1:25:18] and balances that exist and begin to effectively break the system i don't think that's happening [1:25:23] but he's been doing that right on the contrary what's happening is every time he goes too far [1:25:29] the system that is in place holds him accountable and prevents him from doing what he would otherwise [1:25:35] like to do well one so prevents is the wrong word to use because oftentimes they have to check after [1:25:39] the fact so he's already done that's how the system works right not ideally you don't have a guy who's [1:25:43] trying to break the rules over and over and over again and then getting checked and coming back but [1:25:46] the system works in that way with every president that you've ever had right when you have they do [1:25:51] something then they get sued then they have to change the policy that they've generally no generally [1:25:56] you consult with the people within your executive branch to see if you feel like you have the legal [1:26:00] authority to do said thing if they feel like you have the legal authority to do said thing then you try to [1:26:03] do something if the courts check you you accept the court's answer you move on but donald trump more than any [1:26:07] president in my lifetime tries to circumvent the other branches not utilize even his republican [1:26:13] majority congress chastise and attack his supreme court when they don't give him the specific rulings [1:26:17] that he wants and then when he's ruled against he constantly openly flirts with the idea of either [1:26:21] defying the supreme court or going around it using any other number of things that they know will also [1:26:25] be ruled as unconstitutional but the problem is he follows what the supreme court says right i i don't [1:26:33] think it works that way it would be like saying like if somebody doesn't want you to beat you up and [1:26:38] they stop beating you up 10 minutes into you asking i'm saying well they eventually listened right well [1:26:41] i mean the damage is already done well the damage is not already done in that they can't pursue the [1:26:46] policy that they were pursuing well the damage is already done though right so for instance for [1:26:50] tariffs he's collected some 200 plus million dollars of tariffs he's irreparably harmed our trade [1:26:54] relationship with basically every other country including the united kingdoms on on the planet [1:26:58] um we've got people daca kids we just recently found out i think yesterday have been deported [1:27:02] from the country who were never supposed to be you've got two american citizens that were murdered by [1:27:07] questionable at best deployments of ice you've got the president illegally deployed the national guard [1:27:12] and military to states like california like the damage is already done on that the court eventually [1:27:16] says hey you weren't allowed to do that and donald trump goes oh cool i'll find another way to get [1:27:19] around this in the future i don't think any especially an executive which is the scariest thing because [1:27:24] the executive is the guy who's supposed to enforce the laws him continually skirting or [1:27:28] going over these guidelines over and over and over and over again in so many historically unique ways [1:27:32] and then saying well eventually the court said hey that thing that you did two years ago that you've [1:27:36] already politically and financially benefited benefited from you weren't allowed to do that i don't [1:27:39] think that's a good system i feel like it's a dictatorial guy well it look it's it's not for me to [1:27:51] comment on whether the american system of division of powers is good or bad uh it is what it is and what [1:27:58] i'm saying is that system seems to me to be standing up pretty well on balance doesn't mean the [1:28:04] there aren't individual things that you might not agree with for example if i don't want to speak [1:28:09] about america because it's not my country and it's not from i don't vote in america i don't live [1:28:12] there i visit a lot and i like it but it doesn't mean that i get to sort of say but if britain was [1:28:17] deporting uh people to a third country without due process i would be against that right so you can [1:28:25] deduce from that how i feel about the united states doing that i would be totally against that however [1:28:30] there is a system of checks and balances in the u.s which is when the president does something [1:28:34] which is or anyone does something which is found to be illegal you have to go through the courts [1:28:38] and the question for me is has america become a dictatorship which is what i think the important [1:28:43] question is right somebody can have all the tendencies they want the question is is america [1:28:47] in a position where its leader is able to do whatever he wants it wants and ignore the law [1:28:52] i don't believe that's happening and is america in a position where its leader will not [1:28:57] democratically allow the next elected freely elected person to take power uh is is america in [1:29:03] a position where that's not going to happen i don't think that's the case either i think power [1:29:06] will be handed over peacefully and democratically and i think the president of the united states [1:29:11] is not unrestricted by the law in terms of what he's able to do so to me that's a reassuring thing do [1:29:17] you think a dictator thing is only bad at the very micro second it becomes a dictator or do you think [1:29:22] that all of the steps leading up to it are maybe cause for concern because when we say that there will be [1:29:27] free and fair elections i'm fairly certain that that's the case but you have the president right [1:29:31] now weaponizing his department of justice to attack states to look for evidence of fraud in the 2020 [1:29:35] election a thing a case that he's lost in front of courts and to the public and to his own prior [1:29:40] administration over and over and over again or you've got the president of the united states [1:29:44] who's already benefited financially uh massively that the the um tax department has from collecting [1:29:49] revenue from tariffs which was a thing he knew he never should have done but he did it and he's [1:29:54] continuing to do it in other ways and the court will probably rule against him there um you know [1:29:57] in so far as being able to break the laws or whatever you have a president who has now been [1:30:01] granted immunity from committing all crimes as a result of an of a bizarro supreme court ruling [1:30:07] so in a way that's a uniquely new thing that donald trump has been granted the ability that once he [1:30:12] commits a crime it can never be questioned or talked about because he's the president of the united [1:30:16] states so i mean in some ways he literally he literally is committing crimes that or he can commit [1:30:20] crimes that he can't be ever held accountable for because of new presidents have been created to [1:30:24] protect him as the president of the united states sorry what were your questions you've made i think [1:30:28] three questions so basically i think that the idea that it's he's not a dictator yet because we might [1:30:34] have the next free and fair election when it seems like every part of his administration is through [1:30:38] multiple vectors trying to attack free and fair elections to say well as long as the courts you know [1:30:43] eventually course correct that it's not a dictatorial thing i just think it's a very naive reading of how [1:30:49] democracies can fail well um that that i don't sorry um in terms of the say just say that last [1:31:00] bit again i was i think that a guy who is in bad faith attacking all of your democratic norms as the [1:31:05] executive is a uniquely scary thing and you also call it a constitutional crisis that's a uniquely scary [1:31:10] thing and donald trump has shown a penchant for a willingness to do this over and over and over again [1:31:14] and just because he's not at the point where i am a dictator angling himself and doing everything he can [1:31:18] to get to that point i think that that interim period period is worth criticizing uh i i've [1:31:25] certainly i'm not against criticizing any president or prime minister or leader of any country i think [1:31:31] you know it was somewhat humorous to some people but i genuinely believe that there are good and bad [1:31:35] sides to every person and every decision and so on so there's plenty to criticize every leader of every [1:31:40] country for president trump is no exception to that there's lots of things i don't agree with him on [1:31:44] there's lots of things i agree with him on as with every other person um but to me words are important [1:31:51] because they have certain definitions i you don't say that someone is pregnant until they've actually [1:31:57] become pregnant in the same way i wouldn't call someone a dictator until they are a dictator that does [1:32:02] not mean that you can't say well deporting people for a prison in a to a prison in a country to which [1:32:07] they've never been is not something i want the leader of my country to do that is not something i want [1:32:13] the leader of my country to do and that is something that i would want the judicial system of my [1:32:18] country to challenge the leader on doing and prevent them from doing in the future um that that's my [1:32:24] view on it do you think that donald trump is uniquely dictatorial in his search for power in the united [1:32:30] states and then if your answer that is no in what ways are joe biden or barack obama or bill clinton in [1:32:37] what ways did they test the the power of the executive in the ways that donald trump has maybe using the [1:32:42] example of the weaponization of the department of justice truthfully i just don't know enough about [1:32:47] all the history of the american presence to be able to make a good comparison between all of them [1:32:51] uh so i just can't say so are you neutral on that or do you think it's not that i'm neutral i'm [1:32:56] uninformed about it okay i try and if i were to tell you that donald trump has told his department of [1:33:02] justice to go after individuals using a prosecutor that he said that he truthed out that this is the [1:33:07] thing that no u.s president in my lifetime has ever done would you agree that that's like a uniquely bad [1:33:11] way for him to weaponize his department of justice if that is all true i just don't have enough detail [1:33:16] to be able to comment on it properly uh i mean i think if you if you had a republican here they [1:33:21] probably start talking about the fact that the democrats tried to put trump in prison and their [1:33:25] view of that would be that that is equivalent right sure i don't know the fact of the matter [1:33:29] though i don't know enough about it to say which one of those cases is true i try not to comment on [1:33:33] things i don't know enough about okay um but i don't see the i think the conversation we're having [1:33:39] here is is donald trump dictatorial it's not my impression that he is and more important how can [1:33:45] it be your impression that he's not if you don't have any concept of historically what presidential [1:33:49] actions have been you're totally right it's my impression which is why i said it's my impression [1:33:53] it's not my hard-held opinion based on the facts what would be a line in the sand for you or a thing [1:33:59] that if you saw donald trump do it you'd be like oh that's a pretty scary used force to prevent uh the [1:34:04] legal system of the united states from enacting its will or if you prevented a free and fair election [1:34:11] from taking place or the freely and fairly elected candidate of the neck whoever's next from taking [1:34:17] power so when donald trump i think he wrote an executive order when he's talking about utilizing [1:34:21] ice to help the states manage their polling stations would that be an example of that because [1:34:26] these are things he's already said he wants to do and the united states are individual states all run [1:34:30] their own elections it's a very big deal for all of them the federal government doesn't intervene in that [1:34:34] traditionally but donald trump has been on record now saying multiple times that he would like to [1:34:37] have more control over elections in the states well it depends what those ice people do if they're [1:34:41] stuffing ballots into voting booths then yeah that'd be a problem if they're preventing people who are [1:34:47] not citizens of the country from voting i think that would actually help election integrity so it depends [1:34:51] what what they're actually doing so they well i mean it's not like donald trump is going to say we're [1:34:56] going here to prevent people from voting right i'm not saying it's about what he'd say i think it's about [1:35:02] what he'd do so if the ice agents are there to prevent non-citizens from voting i think that [1:35:07] helps election integrity they don't even have a mechanism by which the ice agents are there [1:35:12] to prevent people from voting who should be voting or if they're stuffing ballots into voting [1:35:17] uh boost then that's a different conversation if a state explicitly says we don't want ice here [1:35:21] we don't want the federal government intervening in our state elections and donald trump says i'm [1:35:26] going to do it anyway for election security yeah would you agree that that would be highly [1:35:29] problematic and somewhat dictatorial well it depends on what the reason is for the state to do that if [1:35:33] the state is doing that to ensure that non-citizens vote then no if this if the state says that for [1:35:38] other reasons then yes well they're never gonna even if they were doing it to ensure non-citizens [1:35:42] vote they're never going to say that right right and then if donald trump's here for election [1:35:45] security he's never going to say that was the rationale for them doing it then i think you you'd want [1:35:51] somebody to prevent non-citizens from voting wouldn't you yeah but it would be up to the state to [1:35:55] enforce that number one what if the state refuses to enforce that because it's in their electoral [1:35:59] interest to do that the i mean it would be up to the people of that state to vote to have their [1:36:04] state do something different in terms of the accountability this is how our system works okay [1:36:09] but but i mean like given that i know that donald trump has tried to interfere with elections [1:36:13] in the past why would i even trust his administration to do anything related to election integrity [1:36:18] utilizing federal officers even if he said that that was his intention i feel like just seeing [1:36:22] him send those agents to any state just in and of itself would be enough to say this is a [1:36:26] dictatorial action well no your suspicion does not make it dictatorial but yes i agree with you january [1:36:32] the 6th was not a good look and it created a lot of doubts and a lot of people's minds about his [1:36:38] intentions when it comes to accepting the results of elections democracy depends on on losers consent [1:36:44] and when people lose they should accept it but you can also see it from from the perspective of [1:36:49] someone who might say well if you've got a situation where there seems to be you tell me if this is [1:36:55] wrong but there seems to be some kind of you know inexplicable desire to have people vote without id [1:37:02] or to have people vote who may or may not be citizens that would also make you question election [1:37:07] integrity and i think people are totally entitled to question it and then act accordingly so they are [1:37:11] but the process is to vote on your state then if you want to have a different requirement for [1:37:15] identification at the time you go to vote we need you need id to vote in the united states just not when [1:37:19] you go to the ballot to vote but to register to vote everything you have to show an id um which [1:37:23] i think it was like that even in the uk up until i think a few years ago i think you didn't have to [1:37:26] show a voter you still don't oh you still don't it's a problem and that's something we need to fix [1:37:30] as well yeah so i'm saying that like it's but in the united states it'd be up to an individual [1:37:34] state to fix what they want the president coming in and deciding that he wants it to change [1:37:38] and then given his whole history with election conduct it doesn't seem like it's coming [1:37:41] from a place of good faith it just that would be a thing that would it does right now worry me as a [1:37:45] u.s citizen you've seen him invade um georgia right now with his fbi to seize voter information [1:37:51] from 2020 um and you've seen he's got an entire cabinet his whole cabinet has refused to even [1:37:56] concede that he lost the 2020 election which is kind of insane given that we were supposed to be a [1:38:01] bastion of democracy and everything the leader of the free world in terms of liberalism democracy so [1:38:06] yeah i don't know why i would ever be okay with the president overstepping his boundary [1:38:10] with federal officers to go into states and enforce stuff and not see that as anything but dictatorial [1:38:15] well as i say i think you have a legal system that will ensure that the law is ultimately followed [1:38:20] and that's what differs it from a dictatorial system like the one that i lived in for some time [1:38:25] uh first in the soviet union and then in russia where you actually have a situation where you [1:38:29] cannot remove a person who's in power from power and so i just insist on defining words in in the way [1:38:35] that i think is accurate which is a dictator or someone who cannot be removed from power and who's [1:38:40] deliberately using force to violate the law that to me is what the dictator is uh someone can have [1:38:45] dictatorial tendencies i mean i might have dictatorial tendencies about parenting whatever [1:38:50] that doesn't make me a dictator no but if you were the president of the united states i would be [1:38:53] really scared about your dictatorial yeah no i think that donald trump has already embarked on [1:38:56] so many horrendous actions that have been contrary to every president as i say i think he is [1:39:01] constrained rightly like all previous presidents by the system of checks and balances that you have [1:39:07] the executive will always strain to exceed its authority and there will be other branches of [1:39:12] government whose job it is to restrain them and to use their power for their own agenda that's just [1:39:18] i understand what you're saying but i mean with president trump it has been unique it has been a [1:39:21] unique stretch in almost every single realm regarding executive authority so but he is following the [1:39:27] law no it's not judgment which laws is he not following um once the supreme court says this is a [1:39:33] thing you're not allowed to do he still carries on doing that thing no but if they say that it's not a [1:39:37] thing that he's allowed to do that then he broke the law up to that point okay but the moment well [1:39:42] but if i don't know if i'm doing something and i don't know that i whether i'm allowed to do it or [1:39:47] not yeah what would happen to you and someone comes in and says you're not allowed to do this and i [1:39:51] stopped doing it isn't that me in fact the system working as intended no because what would happen to [1:39:56] you if you did that if well exactly there would be accountability you'd go to jail probably right if [1:40:02] you were doing something or whatever yeah exactly there'd be a punishment right for the executive [1:40:06] there is none well of course because the executive is not a person you can't put the executive in [1:40:10] prison right well because they're the people that put people in prison no because it's it's about [1:40:15] policy it's about policy implementation not personal behavior right that's the difference i mean for [1:40:21] donald trump it is personal behavior but i'm just saying that the idea that when you say the law is [1:40:24] working as intended if i were out setting buildings on fire and then a police officer came up to me and [1:40:27] said sir we evaluated the last 20 hours since you did and we've decided they were all illegal and i say [1:40:32] oh okay i'm going to stop setting buildings on fire yeah you would never describe me as somebody [1:40:35] who is following the law because once i was told i wasn't allowed to do it but this is where the [1:40:39] analogy between the person and the executive breaks down right because the president is testing [1:40:45] where the law is and finding out what he is and isn't allowed to do and the supreme court's job [1:40:50] is to adjudicate on whether what he's doing is compliant with the law or not i think there are [1:40:55] worlds he knows that you're not supposed to set a building on fire and then goes and sets it on fire [1:41:00] he is questioning the the way that the system should work he implements a policy the supreme [1:41:05] court says you're not supposed to do this he stops doing it i think there's a world where that can be [1:41:09] the case and i think there are times where a president has tested where they feel when biden [1:41:13] tried to do mass student loan forgiveness there was a student education bill that gave the president [1:41:17] pretty broad um powers to forgive student loans based on turn on like disaster stuff and he thought [1:41:22] for kobe he could and i think that there is an argument on both sides where it's like well that would [1:41:26] be way too much for congress to grant without like more specific legislation um or you know [1:41:30] yeah i think um i think he actually was allowed that power that was a i think you could have a [1:41:33] reasonable disagreement there in terms of what the president could do for donald trump the idea [1:41:37] that i could tariff the entire planet without congressional approval ever or that i can go to [1:41:42] war with every country i want to without approving anything with the senate or that i could tell [1:41:47] my department of justice to to target individuals with what we all know are essentially fabricated [1:41:52] indictments about mortgage fraud because they're all political adversaries of his um you know with [1:41:56] issue after that i can invoke the alien enemies act so that i can more quickly to deport venezuelans [1:42:01] because i'm trying to claim that venezuela is actively invading the united states of america [1:42:04] because they have gangs there i don't think that these are good faith tests of the law there's [1:42:09] just a guy breaking the law and then giving some pretextual basis for why they were allowed to do the [1:42:13] thing that they did we have 15 minutes left gentlemen wherever you guys want to go fine i think we'll just [1:42:21] disagree fundamentally to me the question is is america becoming a dictatorship i don't from what i [1:42:26] observe i don't see that okay why do you think do you agree that if you could if you could push a [1:42:34] button right now to vote for trump or kamala harris a year ago my guess is you would probably favor trump [1:42:41] well i don't know what kamala harris would have done with this year but probably yeah what do you [1:42:46] think donald trump did over the past year and a half or what policies does he have versus kamala that [1:42:51] you think made trump a superior candidate or do better than kamala i think look again i come back to this [1:42:57] thing about the fact that i'm not an american citizen so my judgment of president trump is not [1:43:02] the same as an american citizen an american citizen will care about the cost of living in america [1:43:07] about immigration into the united states these are things that don't affect me that i don't care about [1:43:11] right because i don't live in america so for me i can't judge him on that i can judge him on the [1:43:17] things that affect people in the rest of the world i think uh num the number one thing that i would [1:43:23] absolutely um say is incredibly important that he's done is he's made europe realize europe and [1:43:29] britain realize that their military and foreign policy has been a gigantic disaster uh that has [1:43:37] and combined that with uh energy and industry and economic policy uh and that they have not been [1:43:45] funding their defense in anything like at anything like the level that we need uh we've made ourselves [1:43:50] reliant uh well not britain so much but europeans made themselves incredibly reliant on russian [1:43:56] hydrocarbons russian energy russian gas russian oil and that meant that when the war in you bring in [1:44:02] ukraine broke out europe was completely toothless in responding to that invasion to the point where the [1:44:07] germans first offer to the ukrainians was 5 000 helmets that's what they offered the ukrainians in [1:44:13] support so what president trump has done is he's come in and he said look we are happy to be allies with [1:44:19] you but you guys are going to have to carry your own weight you're going to have to fund your own [1:44:23] defense he's been saying this by the way for a very long time when the germans openly laughed [1:44:27] in his face when he told them all of these things uh he has forced europe to take seriously its own [1:44:33] defense um i think that's an incredibly good thing uh and i think it's incredibly important thing [1:44:38] because we live in a world now in which you're going to see more conflict we're going to have to [1:44:42] get better at defending ourselves and and also projecting our power abroad so and so so just on this [1:44:48] uh he's and that means necessarily we have to have certain changes in terms of our domestic policy [1:44:54] when it comes to things like energy when it comes to things like growing the economy when it comes to [1:44:58] mass immigration all of these things he has forced europe to reckon with on a realistic basis instead [1:45:04] of living in cloud cuckoo land where we've been living for a very long time so to me that is a huge [1:45:11] achievement of his administration for which i am very grateful okay so i don't understand how it feels [1:45:16] like we're reframing a whole bunch of issues or problems that trump has caused and then trying to [1:45:20] claim that these are somehow beneficial to the continent of of europe so the idea that europe has [1:45:25] to take its own defense seriously why because the united states has decided to abdicate its military [1:45:30] role across the planet i don't i don't understand how this is to be seen as a positive i think that [1:45:35] europe broadly speaking has enjoyed a pretty good century of peace um you know prior or post-world [1:45:41] war ii compared to the centuries beforehand i think a lot of this is because of nato the expansion of [1:45:46] nato because of us protection of basically everybody around the world number one for europe [1:45:50] from the u.s side is very annoying to me because we've spent so much money on our military with the [1:45:54] understanding that there are benefits that we get from being friends with every single country around [1:45:58] the planet being able to ensure free shipping everywhere being able to share intelligence and [1:46:01] do military operations if we need to and now it feels like our entire military investment was for [1:46:05] naught and now europe is being told well you guys have to figure your own stuff out even though europe [1:46:09] had largely entered this agreement with the united states saying that like you're going to be our [1:46:13] nuclear umbrella you're going to cover a lot of the uh you know military projects and then we're [1:46:17] all going to kind of grow economically in the meantime i don't know how trump basically you [1:46:20] know pulling the rug out from europe on that and saying well you guys need to figure it out for [1:46:23] yourself whatever europe figures out for itself it's going to be a worse arrangement than than what [1:46:27] existed before it's not like europe as a continent was struggling with their military defense as the [1:46:32] united states stood by and watched all of it be destroyed i think europe enjoyed the ability to grow [1:46:37] economically and to prosper more than it would have if every single country or if a european union which has its own set of [1:46:42] problems were investing in their own military might uh number one for the military thing for the for [1:46:47] the trade thing i mean the united states is undercut now its trading relationship with with the european [1:46:52] union and i think sadly even with the united kingdom regardless of what people think at the time i think [1:46:56] now i think we can safely say that mega and the brexit movement kind of like grew up together and [1:47:01] shared a lot of similar rhetoric it's kind of crazy to me that the united kingdom which was one of the only [1:47:05] exporter economies um or that we exported more than we imported from somehow still got punished with [1:47:11] tariffs that the united states didn't honor that trade surplus that we had with them or honor any [1:47:16] of the prior commitments or history and now the united kingdom has gotten screwed by by the u.s [1:47:20] tariff regime along with the rest of europe and the idea of saying well europe is gonna have to [1:47:24] figure out its own stuff because the united states has abandoned europe uh it is a good thing i just [1:47:28] i don't understand that i feel like if my position was i wanted to create a weaker europe you know when [1:47:33] we talk about russia i want to create a weaker europe in any way possible i don't know what i would say [1:47:37] differently than what donald trump has essentially already done like if i'm putin or if i'm russia [1:47:42] and i'm looking at the us and in europe my ideal circumstances oh the united states just told europe [1:47:47] to deal with their own that's awesome for me i feel like the us being the umbrella for europe is very [1:47:53] much not awesome for me if i'm if i'm speaking from the russian perspective okay so on the tariffs [1:47:59] um i i didn't say anything about tariffs because it's not a policy that it's truthfully i'm not [1:48:08] entirely sure whether it's a policy that actually is going to work or not in the way that he claims so [1:48:13] i don't know it's not instinctively something i'm a massive fan of but it doesn't mean that it might [1:48:17] not work i don't know uh but in terms of your other point about security uh the the americans i [1:48:22] don't know if you did you catch marco rubio's speech uh that he gave yeah yeah so he was explicitly [1:48:28] saying the exact opposite of what you just said he was not saying we are withdrawing our support from [1:48:34] europe what he was saying is we want to be allies and friends with europe but we cannot do on the [1:48:40] basis that we protect you it has to be on the basis that we work together to protect each other that's [1:48:46] what an alliance is it's when people work together for a common purpose a lot of countries in europe [1:48:52] have been doing what we in britain call taking the piss for a long time which is they've not even [1:48:57] been funding their nato obligations to the level that they were supposed to because they've been [1:49:02] taking advantage of america now the problem with taking advantage of america is i don't want britain [1:49:07] and europe to be america's poodle i want britain the country of which i am a citizen to be [1:49:12] independently powerful and influential if you want to be independently powerful and influential you have [1:49:18] to have a strong economy and you have to have a strong military and you have a strong industrial base [1:49:23] so the fact that the americans are challenging europeans to do more is not the same as america [1:49:30] withdrawing its support or its nuclear umbrella we by the way in britain and in france have nuclear [1:49:36] weapons and if well we we hope that they still work given the way we've been funding them but we think [1:49:42] we have nuclear weapons that work and so we don't need to be relying on the american nuclear umbrella what [1:49:47] we should be relying is on is our own strength and our own economies and then of course partnership [1:49:53] with other countries including the united states i'm not hearing anything out of the united states [1:49:57] which is about abandoning its relationship with europe it's about encouraging europe to also be strong [1:50:02] and to be competent i mean we are at a point in britain where we basically cannot make our own virgin [1:50:09] steel which means we can't make the things you make out of steel uh we don't have a powerful industry to [1:50:15] be able to make anything that's militarily useful uh at the scale that we need to we would run out of [1:50:21] ammunition i don't remember the exact numbers i'd have to look it up but it's like within two weeks [1:50:25] or something of a full war um and and the the decline in in british manufacturing has been [1:50:31] catastrophic it's the same in all of the rest of europe encouraging europe and britain to abandon that [1:50:37] suicidal course i think is incredibly powerful and beneficial for this country and for europe and that's [1:50:42] what that's why i'm glad he's done that uh in addition to that i mean we can look at uh his [1:50:48] part you know you asked me what i support of the things that he's done i think uh president trump if [1:50:53] you look at uh his first term and now he is someone who's taken a totally different approach to the [1:50:59] middle east uh the abram accords were a great step forward i think with jared kushner negotiating uh [1:51:06] in in in the middle east and also you know the hardline policy that he's taken on iran dealing with their plans for new [1:51:13] nuclear enrichment uh these are all very positive developments because of course if iran was allowed [1:51:18] to develop nuclear weapons the first thing that would happen is the saudis would try and get them [1:51:21] as well uh it would destabilize the entire region so for that for that reason his foreign policy [1:51:26] um has been really really strong in my opinion which is why i'm a big fan of it sure so there's [1:51:31] one other thing i want to hit on before we finish um i i guess as a quick thing i just whatever europe [1:51:37] builds militarily absent the united states is going to be worse than the united states taking care of europe [1:51:42] militarily and i think the united states gains a great deal of influence as a result of this this [1:51:47] it was only under donald of course that's what that's but that's what i'm saying is i don't want [1:51:51] us to be a lab doctor america i want us to be independently that's fine but not i don't want to [1:51:56] be mean about this okay but if we're realistic about the united kingdom we're realistic about europe [1:52:00] and we're realistic about where everybody's obsessive investments have been over the past century [1:52:03] right the united states invested heavily in a lot of military stuff whatever the uk and europe will [1:52:09] look like as a military thing it's going to be significantly worse than if the united states [1:52:14] is essentially doing that precisely what i'd like to end but that won't end that's impossible for [1:52:18] that to end that will never end because because we because we blow things up and we we up that's [1:52:23] what we do in the united states we've invested trillions of dollars year after year after year [1:52:26] after year after year in this technology and the idea that the uk which is also struggling or [1:52:31] or even all of europe which might be struggling in other areas is going to magically catch up to the [1:52:34] united states in that i don't know we're not going to catch up but we are going to be strong enough [1:52:39] relative to the size of our country and maybe but at such an unnecessary cost like right now what is [1:52:44] the pressure you talk about running you to decide what military britain should have the defenders of [1:52:49] britain what do you mean like if nobody is going to invade a country who elected you to decide whether [1:52:56] britain should have a military or not when european countries to be able to defend itself to have a [1:53:02] strong economy to have a strong industrial base to have jobs for british people that's what i'd [1:53:07] like and i don't take kindly to an american coming over here and telling us we're going to [1:53:11] be blowing things up this country has a great history of blowing things up thank you very much [1:53:15] yeah that's fine but the reality is is whatever country you're trying to enact or design is going [1:53:19] to be worse off in a world where the united states doesn't you can say no but that's the [1:53:23] reality of the cases it will be powerful we will get more of what we want for our country that's how power [1:53:28] works i'm just curious what what is the projected timeline for that because none of that has worked [1:53:33] out since you didn't become more powerful from brexit i don't see the more power coming in from [1:53:37] what does this have to do with this this idea that isolating yourselves and i don't necessarily [1:53:41] just the uk but that further isolation and entrenchment into your own autarky like you know [1:53:45] fantasies are no no no i'm not in favor of isolation europe has not been doing what it needs to [1:53:51] to work collectively together to be stronger right what i want because it hasn't needed to right what i want [1:53:57] is to brit for britain and other european countries and america to be stronger together [1:54:01] given the challenges we face from putin's russia china iran and other threats that's what i want [1:54:07] the cloud cuckoo world of hanging holding hands and singing kumbaya is over the geopolitical moment [1:54:14] now is going to be more violent more disruptive and we need to be ready for that in this country in [1:54:19] europe and in america and when you listen to european leaders but in order for that to happen [1:54:24] in order for that to happen european countries britain and america all have to be stronger and [1:54:30] what trump is saying to and what marco rubio was saying to europeans is let's be stronger together [1:54:35] by you taking ownership and responsibility that's what i want and i'll just say that spending the [1:54:40] better part of the last year threatening to invade greenland i don't think it's done much to foster [1:54:44] positive resentment in europe towards the united states but i guess we'll see where that'll play out [1:54:47] um just one more thing i i see this rewritten a lot in the media i see you talk about a lot of other [1:54:51] people talk about it why is it that so many people are obsessed with pretending that when donald trump [1:54:56] said that there were good people on both sides of that charlottesville uh protest why are people [1:55:02] pretending that it was anything other than saying that the people in like the the far-right neo-nazi [1:55:06] march had like good people in it i don't understand where this like historical rewriting comes from [1:55:11] have you seen the clip yes i've seen all the speeches so you've seen that he says i'm not talking about [1:55:17] the kkk and neo-nationalists who should be condemned totally i'm talking about some of [1:55:22] the people who were there to protest about the statues yeah but that doesn't make sense because [1:55:26] it was a kkk neo-nazi march well what he's saying is that there were two groups there but there weren't [1:55:32] hold on he what he's saying just let me finish the argument and then we can talk about it is that [1:55:38] there were people who were there to protest about the statues being removed and there were also that [1:55:44] people there who were neo-nazis that is what he's saying but it's not true what do you mean it's not [1:55:50] true it was a unite the right far right neo-nazi kkk and there were also some people there to protest [1:55:55] about the statues there was no people who were there to protest about there might have been one or two [1:55:59] but like hold on there were no people there who were there to protest about the statues who are not [1:56:03] neo-nazis i don't think there were people in the tiki torch march that were just innocent wonder why [1:56:09] no do i but there were also people there protesting about the statues i mean that's not how you would [1:56:13] characterize if there was a neo-nazi march and there were a few people who just happened to be [1:56:17] there that weren't necessarily neo-nazis you would still characterize it as a neo-nazi march [1:56:20] no if if that's what would happen yes but my understanding is there were people protesting about [1:56:25] statues and there was the tiki talk the this thing that you're talking about the neo-nazi march which [1:56:29] was a neo-nazi march was abhorrent right and these two things happened at the same time in the same [1:56:34] place right they didn't that's the point i'm trying to bring is there what the only march there was the [1:56:38] unite the right march which all of their advertising memorabilia and all of the people who organized it [1:56:43] were all well-known white supremacists white identitarians neo-nazis there was no other [1:56:47] group of people there weren't any normal people they're just protesting about the statue i'm sure [1:56:50] there might have been a couple normal people in the crowd but it was a neo-nazi organized march [1:56:54] it was no more than two people is this the hold on wait wait just to be just i just want to understand [1:57:00] real quickly you would agree with this statement there was not a single blm whole riot anywhere in the [1:57:05] united states because in any riot there were not every single person rioting so you would never [1:57:10] characterize it as a riot no i'd characterize it as a riot but if someone said there were also [1:57:15] some decent people who just care about social justice i'd say of course they were if so if [1:57:20] there was a so when we saw the videos of people setting car dealerships on fire and everything [1:57:23] and somebody was like what do you think about like the the the riots last night that set fire [1:57:27] to the car dealerships and you're like well you know i think there were some good people there [1:57:30] wouldn't that be like a really inappropriate thing to say you say i condemn the violence i think it's [1:57:33] a horrible thing but that isn't what he said he said i condemned the people who did the rioting [1:57:38] but we also have to recognize that there were also some people there who were not violent and [1:57:42] that's exactly it wasn't about not being violent it was about being a neo-nazi who were not neo-nazis [1:57:47] right it was a neo-nazi organized march but i'm i'm not arguing with you about that point what i'm [1:57:52] saying is what he was saying was that there were some other people you gave me the blm example right [1:57:58] if you said to me there was a blm riot which burned down a police precinct but also next to it [1:58:03] there were some people standing with placards saying black lives matter who are just decent [1:58:07] people i'd be like that's fair enough but the riot is what matters yeah but i wouldn't talk about the [1:58:12] people with the placards because i'd probably be asked for a clear comment on how do i feel about [1:58:15] the rioting well what he said is there were people there who i condemn who were the neo-nazis and there [1:58:20] was the other people so your argument is did he defend the kkk and neo-nazis i don't think he did that [1:58:27] every single person that was there that was a neo-nazi felt like they had been defended by donald trump [1:58:33] their subjective feeling is not the issue here it's literally definition the only thing that [1:58:36] matters because they're the ones organizing the marches and if richard spencer and these other [1:58:39] guys are saying yeah i think donald trump made a nothing burger statement the right rally was [1:58:43] reprehensible and what happened there was atrocious i don't defend it i don't support it i'm actively [1:58:49] against it i think it was horrific and these people are terrible i hate all of them i criticize [1:58:54] them all the time you mentioned by the way earlier that i never criticize them i criticize i'm [1:58:58] literally the person who one not the person i don't want to take all the credit who came up [1:59:02] with the concept of the woke right for which i'm constantly attacked by all these retards like [1:59:06] tucker carlson and candace owens and whatever right i believe in criticizing both the right [1:59:15] and the left when they're going wrong the point i was making is that donald trump did not defend [1:59:20] the kkk and the neo-nazis he made a distinction between those people and the others and he condemned [1:59:27] the kkk and the nazis which he did sure i understand i understand your perspective on this but [1:59:32] the people there felt like they were being supported this exact same thing played out [1:59:35] with the proud boys before where he said stand back and stand by and you can see the leaders [1:59:39] of the proud boys and the oath keepers on parlor and gab saying like oh we heard you loud and clear [1:59:43] president trump and then they showed up on january 6th you can see the organizers of the march um [1:59:48] jason kessler i don't remember the guy's first name um you know him you can see richard spencer you [1:59:52] can see enoch all tweeted out or were given press interviews where they said yeah we feel like you [1:59:56] know trump was supporting us it was a neo-nazi organized march it's just a very weird thing and [2:00:01] donald trump has a history of this inability to criticize people that he thinks supports them [2:00:04] for being violent this happened a lot in the way these are all these are all perfectly valid points [2:00:07] on that right but they're separate from the only thing i've ever said about that which is the people [2:00:11] who claim that donald trump came out and said there are good people on both sides and by good people [2:00:17] he meant the kkk and the neo-nazis i don't think that's true i don't think that matches the evidence [2:00:22] of what he said sure although to be clear nobody made that claim in particular they said that he said that [2:00:26] there were good people on both sides where one side was an organized neo-nazi alt-right march no [2:00:31] i think he made the distinction very very clearly and people do this all the time they take the words [2:00:36] out of context to present that somebody said something they didn't say they're not at every [2:00:40] but apparently every person understood him to mean that he was supporting the neo-nazis the neo-nazis [2:00:45] felt that way the neo-nazis are going to pretend that trump supported them because it benefits them that [2:00:49] does not mean that if you read what he said or watch it in context that is what he was saying if he would have [2:00:54] just said unequivocally i deny he said i condemned the kkk and the neo-nazis who are there totally [2:01:01] but there were also their people protesting about the statues which that is what he said sure but [2:01:05] there weren't those people that's what he said okay and so when people try and present him as not [2:01:10] having condemned them that's just factually incorrect and i care about the truth and i care [2:01:13] about the fact okay those are the facts i think that i think the truth is really important and i think [2:01:17] using weird syntactical out of context arguments to try to pretend that one thing was said when every [2:01:22] single person understood a different thing when you're asked to disavow a group of neo-nazis that [2:01:26] are marching ostensibly supporting you as well and your go-to immediately as well i think there were [2:01:31] you know good people on both sides of that and then you ham up all of these people that were supposedly [2:01:34] just defending the terror down of a statue and he went on to describe you know there are a lot of [2:01:38] people there who are just trying to say that's not true that whole march was organized by alt-right [2:01:42] people if you listen to trump's statement you come away thinking oh i guess maybe there were multiple [2:01:46] marches or multiple protests or there was a decent protest in the morning and then the neo-nazis came later [2:01:50] but that's not true there was a singular alt-right neo-nazi march that was organized that's the only [2:01:55] one he could have been referring to when he said there are good people on both sides and what a [2:01:58] pointless statement to make of saying well i there some people there might have been good people that's [2:02:02] true of the nazi regime that's true of literally everything in all of human history why even bother [2:02:06] saying that unless you're just trying to obfuscate when you're being asked to take accountability for [2:02:10] uh you know a group of people you can have this argument we should uh finish with some final [2:02:14] thoughts guys we are uh getting out of time here all right well final thoughts from me is that i'm glad we [2:02:19] managed to actually have a conversation it's been a lot more um enjoyable than the first part of it [2:02:24] uh because i think when people talk even if they don't agree uh i think that's good uh i think that [2:02:29] um it's it's helpful to understand that putting people in tribes and then ascribing the worst opinions [2:02:39] that you wish they had so you can argue with them is not the way to actually conduct public debate [2:02:44] i think those of you who don't agree with me might have seen that i don't hold some of the opinions [2:02:49] that you hope i i hold in order that you could disagree with them and that a lot of my opinions [2:02:54] are actually quite reasonable and rational and based on the on the logic and facts of what i see [2:02:59] you might doesn't mean you you're gonna start suddenly start agreeing with them but at least [2:03:02] they make sense and there's a coherent world view so i'm very grateful for all of you coming out and [2:03:08] thank you very much for being here i feel like one of the kind of worst tricks that have been played on [2:03:22] freedom of speech or debate or conversations over the past 10 20 years is this concept that as long as two [2:03:27] people are chattering at each other or in the direction of an audience there's some kind of [2:03:31] actual dialogue or actual conversation happening i think that you can look at people who play this [2:03:35] game of just asking questions who don't stake out any real positions in anything you can find them [2:03:40] always leaning in a certain direction always instigating a certain type of behavior um you're [2:03:44] leading to things like the southport riots when somebody like faraj just comes out and lies and says [2:03:49] that uh local british authorities are hiding evidence about islamic extremism from uh from a muslim jihadist [2:03:55] immigrant and none of these things that are being true people develop feelings about them and then [2:03:58] the same situation happens over and over and over and over again and every single time when the [2:04:03] people involved in spreading said misinformation are asked to take some accountability or asked how [2:04:06] they feel about the things they've made it's always the same broad allusion to freedom of speech and [2:04:11] good conversations um i think that the arguments that have existed online today relating to the [2:04:16] political cultures on both sides especially the right mainly the right are just so unbelievably boring [2:04:20] and played out to hear the exact same talking points over and over again about how we need better [2:04:25] immigrants or we need to curb all of this or wokeism and transgender people are destroying society [2:04:30] and then meanwhile like the governments that are forming from these people you guys are starting to [2:04:35] have your own mega thing in the uk with reform and restore is is just a bunch of empty hollow promises [2:04:40] that just end up destroying the countries ironically even more than the perceived threats that they had [2:04:43] before i was promised in the united states that hispanic people and muslims were going to destroy my [2:04:47] society and i've got donald trump who i don't even know how many more bombs have dropped in iran or [2:04:51] how many more attacks have gone on the president of no new wars who's basically broken every single [2:04:55] promise he's made but the reason why he's been able to do this and get away with it is because [2:04:59] the entire foundation that people drove towards voting for him was was created on complete total [2:05:05] lies and i don't know i hope at some point in the future over the next year or two i know you [2:05:08] guys still have some real journalists in this country we've lost basically all of them in the united [2:05:11] states i hope that people force the epic centrist to kind of like take stronger positions on [2:05:15] things to not get upset and to put down their microphones when they're actually asked challenging [2:05:19] questions about the positions they hold rather than being allowed to endlessly demagogue about [2:05:23] their positions over and over again without getting any specifics and then to just repeat [2:05:26] the same empty hollow talking points they've had for the past decade that have basically achieved [2:05:29] nothing it's my feeling on it please put your hands together for constantine kissin and destiny