Dad Testifies Against Ex-Beauty Queen in Child’s Murder — Full Testimony

[00:00:00] Speaker 1: Sir, if you will come to the witness stand and face Mr. Lamb before you step up and receive the oath, please. [00:00:15] Speaker 2: If you would just pause right there and raise your right hand, please. You swear that the evidence you give to this case would be the truth, so help you God. Yes, sir. Have a seat. What is your name? Julian Williams. And how do you spell Julian? [00:00:44] Speaker 3: J-U-L-I-A-N. [00:00:46] Speaker 2: I-N or I-N? J-U-L-I-A-N. I-A-N. So sort of the normal spelling or conventional spelling. Right, gotcha. Okay. Where do you live, Mr. Williams? Cockle. And how long have you lived in Cocklewood, Georgia? [00:01:00] Speaker 3: My whole life. [00:01:07] Speaker 2: Who do you live with in Cocklewood, Georgia? [00:01:12] Speaker 3: I live with my sister. [00:01:14] Speaker 2: And what's her name? [00:01:16] Speaker 3: Ashanti Burr. [00:01:19] Speaker 2: How did it come to be that you and your sister were sharing a house there in Cocklewood, Georgia? [00:01:26] Speaker 3: It's my mom's house. My mom got sick with cancer and she couldn't be around my son, so we bought another house and she stayed probably 10 minutes down the road. [00:01:36] Speaker 2: Okay. So was your mom living there with you and your sister before she got sick? [00:01:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:01:47] Speaker 2: After your son passed away, why would your mom not move back to your house? [00:01:54] Speaker 3: She was already sick and she wanted to stay in Damascus. [00:01:59] Speaker 2: So she was living in Damascus? Yes. So you lost your son in January of 24 and then your mother in October? [00:02:17] Speaker 3: Yes, nine months apart. Exact date. [00:02:28] Speaker 2: How old is Ashanti Burr? She's 23. And how old are you? 25. What's your birthday? [00:02:38] Speaker 3: July 10, 2000. [00:02:49] Speaker 2: Where do you work? Steward Machine in Bainbridge, Georgia. Steward Machine? Yes. That's S-T-E-W-A-R-D? Yes. What is Steward Machine? What kind of business is that? [00:03:02] Speaker 3: It's welding business and paint business. It's taking like for the state, federal, federal drone. We build bridges and dams. [00:03:14] Speaker 2: And how do you build bridges and dams in Bainbridge, Georgia to put somewhere else? [00:03:21] Speaker 3: The bridges, we tear down and put them on. They go by semi-low. And for the dams, we ship them out on the water. [00:03:31] Speaker 2: There's a river that runs through there, right? Yes, that's correct. It's navigable. I mean, they can send stuff down to the port and I guess probably all the way to Savannah, can't they? Or to Florida. [00:03:43] Speaker 3: Yes, correct. [00:03:44] Speaker 2: Okay. So, what is your job at Steward Machine? [00:03:50] Speaker 3: I'm a painter. [00:03:52] Speaker 2: How long have you worked there? [00:03:55] Speaker 3: Maybe two and a half years. [00:04:04] Speaker 2: If you and your mother and your sister were living together in Calquit, who was the, who, if anyone, was the primary wage earner? [00:04:16] Speaker 3: Me. Me and my mother before she got saved. [00:04:20] Speaker 2: And now that it's you and your sister living there, who was the primary wage earner in that household? [00:04:29] Speaker 3: Me. [00:04:30] Speaker 2: What's your sister do? [00:04:31] Speaker 3: Oh, she's in college right now. [00:04:46] Speaker 2: Who was Romeo Angelus? [00:04:50] Speaker 3: He's my son. [00:04:59] Speaker 2: When was he born? [00:05:02] Speaker 3: June 25, 2022. [00:05:09] Speaker 2: And who was his mother? [00:05:11] Speaker 3: Shayla Alondra Angelus Gardnico. [00:05:18] Speaker 2: Did you know that Shayla was pregnant with your child before the baby was born? Yes. And did, were you in, were you in contact with her? Were you, were you, sort of being kept in the loop, as it were? [00:05:37] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:05:44] Speaker 2: When you found out that the baby had been born, what did you, what did you, let me ask you this, where was she when the baby was born? [00:05:52] Speaker 3: She was in Tallahassee. [00:05:57] Speaker 2: When you found out that the baby had been born, what, what did you do? [00:06:00] Speaker 3: I leave, I was standing in Dothan at the time. I love Dothan and went to Tallahassee. [00:06:06] Speaker 2: And when you went to, to Tallahassee, what, what, what, I mean, how, how, what, what did that involve? I mean, you're going to see the, your baby has just been born, I mean, how, how, what, what did you do? Who did you see? What did you do? [00:06:19] Speaker 3: I went to see her, see him, and well, she said she hadn't named him yet, so we came up with a name. [00:06:25] Speaker 2: Okay, so y'all talked about that together, took a name? Yes. Okay, and, and what, what did y'all settle on as far as the name goes? [00:06:32] Speaker 3: Jackson Drew Angeles. [00:06:34] Speaker 2: Okay, Jackson, Drew, like Jackson. [00:06:38] Speaker 3: Jackson. [00:06:39] Speaker 2: Jackson, like J-A-X-T-O-N. Yes. Okay, and, and Drew spelled how? [00:06:44] Speaker 3: D-R-U. [00:06:45] Speaker 2: D-R-U? [00:06:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:47] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you believe that that was, that, that Jackson Drew was going to be the baby's name? Yes. Did you find out at some point that, that, that, that wasn't his legal name? [00:07:14] Speaker 3: Yeah, he was deceased. Okay. [00:07:16] Speaker 2: Did you ever have a copy of his birth certificate? [00:07:29] Speaker 3: No, no social security card. [00:07:32] Speaker 2: Who had those things? His mother. Did you ask for them? Yes, several times. Did you have any way of getting them without going through her? [00:07:45] Speaker 3: No, because my mom looked it up in the system. She couldn't find Jackson Drew, so. Couldn't find them. [00:07:59] Speaker 2: And, who did the baby live with? Y'all called him J-D, right? Right. That was the name that he, that, what he actually was called, right? Yes. Who, who did, who did J-D live with after he was born? [00:08:14] Speaker 3: With his mom for like, maybe two, three months. But in between that, I get him every week. Okay. [00:08:20] Speaker 2: So, he, he lived with his mother, but you got him every, every week? Every week or two. Every other week? [00:08:25] Speaker 3: Every other week. [00:08:26] Speaker 2: Every other week, okay. Um, was there a time when the custody arrangement changed in some way? [00:08:37] Speaker 3: Uh, yes, um, when she said she was going to Mexico. [00:08:42] Speaker 2: Now, why would she have been going to Mexico? [00:08:45] Speaker 3: Uh, it was, it was for, she had another kid, her kids, um, in Mexico. And, uh, the birthday, I think, is in November. And, she was leaving and said she would come back in like, January. And, she asked her if she'd take him. But, I said, no, I'll, I'll keep him until you got back. [00:08:59] Speaker 2: So, is she, is she Mexican? [00:09:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:02] Speaker 2: Okay. And, so, so, she was going to go to Mexico. Um, and that was, that was when, if you remember? [00:09:11] Speaker 3: Um, early, or October. I mean, late October, early November. [00:09:16] Speaker 2: Okay. October or November of 2020? Twenty-two. Twenty-twenty-two. Okay. So, he would have been, JD would have been, five, four, five months old? Three, four, five months old. Four, four months old. [00:09:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:09:27] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:09:28] Speaker 2: And, and then, when, uh, she, she told you that she was, she was going to Mexico, uh, and you told me that you didn't want her to take your son to Mexico. What, what, what did she do? [00:09:42] Speaker 3: Uh, she told me, I can come get him. Uh, she told me I can come get him. So, I went to Tallahassee and got him. [00:09:47] Speaker 2: What, after you went and got him in Tallahassee, did you keep him more, more or less, uh, from then and for the rest of his life? Yes. Did he see his mother again? [00:10:04] Speaker 3: Um, maybe three times. [00:10:05] Speaker 2: Or did she see him? [00:10:06] Speaker 3: Maybe three times. [00:10:08] Speaker 2: Okay. How was it that she saw him later after you were the, the primary custodian? [00:10:17] Speaker 3: I brought him to him, um, she, he had to go to the doctor and she told me, um, bring him to him. [00:10:21] Speaker 2: So you would take him? [00:10:23] Speaker 3: To Tallahassee, to her, and he had a doctor's appointment the next day. [00:10:26] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:10:27] Speaker 2: So she, at that time, was arranging the doctor's appointments for him. And do you, do you know why she would have been the person who was arranging the doctor's appointments? [00:10:38] Speaker 3: I don't know. She wouldn't, she wouldn't give me none of his medical records because he was down there with me. [00:10:44] Speaker 2: So you didn't, you didn't have his medical records? [00:10:46] Speaker 3: No. [00:10:55] Speaker 2: If he had been covered by, like, like, a, like, a state insurance policy, like, in Georgia it's called Peach Care. Right. If he had been covered by the insurance policy in, in Florida, um, do you, would, would that be a reason that, that she would have been the person who had to make those arrangements and so forth? [00:11:15] Speaker 3: Yes, I guess so. [00:11:17] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:11:17] Speaker 2: You, you don't really know. No, no, I don't. But she didn't give you the stuff that you needed to do. No, sir. So, and, and you said you took him down there three different times that you could recall for him to see her and go to the doctor? [00:11:31] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:11:43] Speaker 2: Do you know when the last time was that that, that that happened? Or can you, do you remember when the last time was that you, that he saw a doctor in Tallahassee? [00:11:53] Speaker 3: Um, I know, I say it was like nine months. Now, I think a year old. I think she came and got him right after she, he turned one. [00:12:02] Speaker 2: Okay. So, when he was a year old, that was, as far as you know, that was his last doctor's appointment. Who, if you were working, who was taking care of J.D. at your house in Coquit? [00:12:25] Speaker 3: My sister. [00:12:33] Speaker 2: And, I guess for lack of a better way of phrasing it, uh, was she the, I mean, was she the, sort of the primary caregiver for the child at that point? [00:12:47] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, because I had worked all the time. [00:13:10] Speaker 2: Did you know Trinity Pope? [00:13:12] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. [00:13:18] Speaker 2: Was there a point in time that you became involved in a relationship with Trinity Pope? [00:13:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:28] Speaker 2: Okay. Tell me, sort of, when that started, how that, how that, when and how that was initiated. [00:13:37] Speaker 3: It was an on and off thing prior, but then we officially made it, um, started dating in June of 23. [00:13:46] Speaker 2: June of 2023? [00:13:48] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:52] Speaker 2: And, in June of 2023, you would have been, uh, what, 22 years old? Yes. Is that right? Yes. Um, do you know how old she was? [00:14:06] Speaker 3: Eighteen. [00:14:20] Speaker 2: Were you each aware of the other's age? [00:14:24] Speaker 3: Yes. Yes. [00:14:34] Speaker 2: Um, after you started dating Trinity Pope, um, from June forward, what was the state of your relationship, but it, generally, what was generally the state of your relationship? [00:14:49] Speaker 3: We had our ups and downs. [00:14:50] Speaker 2: Do you recall how long you had been dating before she actually, before you actually introduced her to your son, J.D.? [00:15:11] Speaker 3: Um, it was, like, way before we started dating. She, I introduced him, like, before we even started dating. [00:15:16] Speaker 2: So, before she ever started dating you, she knew that you had a son? [00:15:20] Speaker 3: Yes, correct. [00:15:23] Speaker 2: Had, had, had she met him? Had you seen him? [00:15:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:33] Speaker 2: So, after you started dating, uh, were there occasions when, uh, she was in the presence of your son, or your son was in her presence? [00:15:44] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:46] Speaker 2: Okay. What were the circumstances under which, uh, she and, and your, your son would be in the same place, same time? [00:15:55] Speaker 3: Uh, usually when I'm, I'm with him. When she was in college, I come and see her and stuff with him sometimes. [00:16:00] Speaker 2: Okay, so, so you came to Americas to see her? [00:16:03] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:05] Speaker 2: And, and sometimes he came with you? [00:16:07] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:14] Speaker 2: When, when he came with you to Americas, uh, who was responsible for, uh, taking care of him, I mean, for changing his clothes, changing his diapers, getting him dressed, giving him baths, feeding him, those sorts of things. [00:16:36] Speaker 3: Either or we both, either one of us, either do it. [00:16:40] Speaker 2: So, she sometimes participated in that or helped in that? [00:16:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:16:46] Speaker 2: But, but, but, but was she expected or did she have to? No, she didn't have to. Do that all the time? [00:16:53] Speaker 3: No. [00:16:54] Speaker 2: Did she have to do it at all? [00:16:56] Speaker 3: Not at all. [00:17:10] Speaker 2: From your observations of her with J.D., what was, what was your impression of her relationship or, uh, her view of the, of her relationship with J.D.? [00:17:27] Speaker 3: It seemed pretty good. Like, she was always, like, happy around him and stuff. So, I thought it was pretty, pretty stable, decent. [00:17:38] Speaker 2: Had, had she at any point ever specifically told you that she, you know, how, how she, quote, really felt about your son? [00:17:49] Speaker 3: She said it then, she said it maybe once or twice. So, like, she don't know if she couldn't have, be with somebody that with a son. Then, maybe two, three hours later, she's fine and, like, I'm sorry. [00:18:03] Speaker 2: So, there were, there were times that she expressed some reservations, like, that she didn't know, you, you said that she would send messages or, or she would say something, like, a couple of times that she didn't know if she could be with somebody who had a, had a kid by somebody else, right? [00:18:16] Speaker 3: And she also say, like, she would treat them like it, that's her own. [00:18:22] Speaker 2: And, so, besides those times when she expressed to you some reservations like that, did you ever observe anything about her behavior, her conduct, her attitude towards J.D. when you saw them together? [00:18:44] Speaker 3: One time it was, like, a little incident. And I addressed it. It was fine since then. [00:18:48] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:18:49] Speaker 2: What was that? [00:18:50] Speaker 3: It was November, in November, right before. She, I think I went to work. I left her with her, like, for the first time. I went to work and she texted me and my sister said she was cleaning up or whatever and J.D. ran up behind her and she didn't see him and accidentally hit him with the drawer. [00:19:11] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay, so, in November of 2023, she said that she, she, how was it that she, I'm sorry, let me back up and start, scratch that. I'm going to start up. What did you say a moment ago that led to her being in charge of him at that, at that time? What, what, where were y'all? What, what led up to that? [00:19:46] Speaker 3: Oh, like, I had to work that day and she was like, I keep him or whatever. [00:19:50] Speaker 2: So, were you here in America? [00:19:52] Speaker 3: Yes, I was in America. [00:19:54] Speaker 2: And the baby was with you? [00:19:55] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:19:56] Speaker 2: Um, and, so, why would she keep the child for you to go to work as opposed to you just taking the child back home to Coquit and, and leaving him with your sister or whatever, you know, as, as, as you might have on a normal work day? [00:20:14] Speaker 3: She told him to, um, leave him and just come back up. [00:20:18] Speaker 2: So, basically, she was going to keep him so that you could work and come back here the same, the, the same next day or whatever, that, I mean, that night. Yes. Or that evening. So, she, you said that she sent you and your sister a message saying that, what, about the baby? [00:20:42] Speaker 3: Um, she, it was like a little bruise on his eye because supposedly she was cleaning up and opened the drawer and he ran up behind her and, and the drawer hit him. Okay. [00:20:53] Speaker 2: And, and she said that was, that caused a bruise over his eye? [00:20:56] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:20:58] Speaker 2: When you came and picked up, or back up, I guess I'm getting ahead of myself, uh, when you left work that day, what did you do? [00:21:07] Speaker 3: I came back and got him. [00:21:08] Speaker 2: Okay. Did you end up staying in Americas? [00:21:11] Speaker 3: Uh, I think I went home. [00:21:16] Speaker 2: Uh, did you see any other injuries on, on the, on the child at, at that time? [00:21:23] Speaker 3: At that time, I just seen the little bruise above his eye. [00:21:36] Speaker 2: I mean, how closely did you look? I mean, did you, you know? [00:21:40] Speaker 3: I observed it and I looked, it was like, I touched it and it didn't bother him or nothing. [00:21:47] Speaker 2: Did you, ultimately, did you accept her explanation as to what had happened? [00:21:59] Speaker 3: Yeah, she was like, I, I confronted her about it then, she got, uh, mad and, well, not mad, she's got like, started crying and stuff like she was sorry and she would never hurt him and stuff. [00:22:09] Speaker 2: Do you recall any other time that, well, not came the, the last time, but other than November. Do you recall any other time that, uh, uh, the child was, was hurt or injured while she was keeping him? [00:22:48] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:22:53] Speaker 2: Did you ever see her do anything, you know, uh, in your presence? No. Did she ever do anything that was, that you thought was violent or whatever? [00:23:03] Speaker 3: Like maybe raise her voice, like if you get into something, but that's about it. She didn't do anything else in my presence. [00:23:15] Speaker 2: What about you, Mr. Williams? Did you beat your young'un? [00:23:18] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:23:20] Speaker 2: Did you ever hit him? No, sir. [00:23:22] Speaker 3: Like a little pop and that's about it. Okay. [00:23:24] Speaker 2: When you say like a little pop, tell me what you're talking about. [00:23:26] Speaker 3: On his hand, like tell him no like that, just on his hand. Okay. [00:23:31] Speaker 2: How many times you reckon you popped his hand? Not, not, not, maybe a handful of times. [00:23:43] Speaker 3: I mean, was that something that happened every day? No. [00:23:46] Speaker 2: Was that something that happened every week? No. No. Did you ever do anything to the child that caused your child to be injured in any way? Did you ever do anything to the child that caused your child to be injured in any way? [00:24:03] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:24:20] Speaker ?: Do you ever do anything to the child that caused your child to be injured in any way? [00:24:50] Speaker 2: In January of 2024, did you come to Americus to see Trinity Pope? [00:25:06] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:25:08] Speaker 2: Let's talk about the week of, this would have been, like Monday would have been, say, January 8th, if my internal calendar is right. So, like the week of January 8th. [00:25:20] Speaker 4: Okay. [00:25:21] Speaker 2: Tell me what happened that week in terms of you seeing her here, there, or wherever you were. [00:25:29] Speaker 3: I came up, I think, on Wednesday or Thursday. I came and we ate, and that was it for the day. Then the next day I left, then I came back the same day. [00:25:43] Speaker 2: Did you stay with her when you came up, whatever day that was, Wednesday or Thursday? [00:25:48] Speaker 3: Yes. I think, yeah, Wednesday I stayed with her. [00:25:50] Speaker 2: Okay. What was going on between y'all during that time frame, that week? [00:25:57] Speaker 3: We argued the night I bought a hotel. I think it was on that Thursday. [00:26:02] Speaker 2: So, Thursday night you paid for a hotel. Right. In Americus? Uh-huh. Where did you get a hotel room in Americus? [00:26:08] Speaker 3: I think it was at the Hampton. [00:26:10] Speaker 2: Hampton Inn? Uh-huh. [00:26:12] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:26:13] Speaker 2: Um. Did, what did y'all do when you got back here from work? Were you working that week? [00:26:27] Speaker 3: Uh, I think so. [00:26:28] Speaker 2: Okay. So, when you got back to Americus from work, what did y'all do on that Thursday when you were staying, when you had a room at Hampton Inn? [00:26:39] Speaker 3: Uh, I think we went to eat. Then she came to the hotel. Then we got in an argument. Then she left. Then, in the process of her leaving, she, um, she got back up to the, um, dorms and stuff. And, um, she takes me and says she wrecked. So, I leave and I come and she didn't wreck. I guess it was just to get my attention or something. [00:26:59] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you. She left the hotel, went to the dorm and she told you that she'd had a wreck. [00:27:12] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:27:13] Speaker 2: And, and did you, what did you do? [00:27:15] Speaker 3: I left and went to find her. [00:27:18] Speaker 2: And, and you, you said that she had not had a wreck. [00:27:20] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:27:26] Speaker 2: So, what happened from there on, on Thursday? [00:27:28] Speaker 3: From there she went back in the dorms and got her stuff and she came with me. [00:27:33] Speaker 2: So, she ended up going back to the hotel with you? Correct. All right. So, then Friday. What, what, what happened on Friday? What'd you do on Friday? In relation to you and her, in relation to each other. What'd y'all do? [00:27:46] Speaker 3: Uh, I think we got up. I know we, I think we had a long conversation or whatever. Then said we'll fix things. We went and ate Zaxby's. Then, I think I went home. [00:27:59] Speaker 2: So, you went home on Friday? [00:28:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:28:02] Speaker 2: Um, did you end up coming back to Americas that week? [00:28:09] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:28:10] Speaker 2: Okay. What prompted you to come back to Americas on Saturday? [00:28:14] Speaker 3: Sarah, she texted me and said, um, uh, let's go eat. I said, uh, where do you want to eat at? I can meet you halfway. She was like, um, let's meet in Albany at Chipotle. I said, okay, cool. Let me go get a drink. She's like, bring JD. So, I said, okay. I said, you sure? She's like, yeah, bring JD. [00:28:33] Speaker 2: So, she suggested that y'all get something to eat. [00:28:37] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:28:38] Speaker 2: And then, uh, you, you told her that you had JD. [00:28:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:28:45] Speaker 2: And, and her react, her response was, bring JD. Bring him? [00:28:49] Speaker 3: Yeah. [00:28:50] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you were going to go meet her in Albany at Chipotle. [00:28:53] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:28:54] Speaker 2: Um, and what happened when you got to Albany? [00:28:59] Speaker 3: Uh, we met her, I met her at Chipotle. We walked in and, um, they was playing. I had them in my hands and they was playing or whatever. Then she got them. Then Chipotle didn't have nothing like on the menu or whatever. So, we went to walk out and they was in front of me. So, I would hold the door for them and another couple walking in. So, I had the door and JD didn't see me. So, he made a whining noise like he couldn't see me. So, he started crying. I got him. She got a little attitude and got in her car. Then she said, we're going to Sephora, the makeup store. Then I followed her to the makeup store. Then we went in the makeup store and she got what she wanted. Then when we got out the makeup store, she was like, let's get him something to eat. I said, okay, cool. So, then I put, I put his, uh, she told me to put him in her car. So, I got him out of my car. [00:29:44] Speaker 2: Why did she tell you to put him in her car? [00:29:48] Speaker 3: Um, she wanted him. [00:29:53] Speaker 2: She wanted what? [00:29:54] Speaker 3: Wanted him to ride with her. [00:29:56] Speaker 2: Why? Did she give me any explanation? Did she say anything about it? [00:29:58] Speaker 3: Uh, no. [00:30:00] Speaker 2: Um, were you drunk? [00:30:04] Speaker 3: No. Had you been drinking? No, I poured a cup. So, I put him in her car. [00:30:12] Speaker 2: Okay. So, had you been drinking when he was in the car with you? [00:30:15] Speaker 3: No. [00:30:17] Speaker 2: So, then she said that he could ride with her. Correct. Um, and y'all went from the makeup store. To McDonald's. To McDonald's. What'd you do at McDonald's? [00:30:33] Speaker 3: Uh, I parked to the side and they ordered food and got it. And, uh, we've, after we left there, we went to Kangaroo to get gas. I filled up her car. Put gas in my car and I went to America's. [00:30:45] Speaker 2: Did, did you order food for JD at McDonald's? [00:30:52] Speaker 3: Yes, she did. [00:30:53] Speaker 2: Did he eat? [00:30:54] Speaker 3: Uh, she said he ate a couple fries. That's about it. But she, he ate before I picked them up from my, from my sister at my house. [00:31:02] Speaker 2: All right. So, you got food or she got food there for, for him. Did, did y'all not sit down at McDonald's and eat or? No. [00:31:12] Speaker 3: It was already late, so we was trying to get back to America's. [00:31:15] Speaker 2: Okay. So, he was in her car. Correct. And she was giving him food in the car. Right. And she said he ate a couple of fries and I was about to eat. Right. [00:31:23] Speaker 3: And he was asleep on, when we got there. [00:31:26] Speaker 2: He was, he was asleep. Yes. He fell asleep. [00:31:28] Speaker 3: Yeah, when we got to America's. [00:31:29] Speaker 2: Um. So, you got to America's Saturday night. All right. Do you know what time approximately? [00:31:48] Speaker 3: Um, it's like maybe 10.30. Maybe between 9 and 10, I'd say. 10.30 at the latest. [00:31:55] Speaker 2: If, if the, if the, if the video from the dorm shows y'all walking into the dorm at, uh, 10.06 on Friday night, I mean on Saturday, Saturday night. Oh, would you have any reason to disagree with that? [00:32:09] Speaker 3: No. [00:32:09] Speaker 2: Does that sound right? [00:32:10] Speaker 3: Yeah, approximately, yes. [00:32:11] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you, you get to the dorm. And, and you go in and, and what happens when you, when you get inside? [00:32:22] Speaker 3: Uh, I take a shower. They take a shower. Then, I blow the air mattress up. Then, um. [00:32:27] Speaker 2: Okay. Where's the air mattress? Where did the air mattress come from? [00:32:30] Speaker 3: At the foot of our bed. [00:32:31] Speaker 2: Okay. All right. So, you, so you, you blow up the air mattress and you put it where? [00:32:36] Speaker 3: At the foot of our bed. [00:32:37] Speaker 2: And, who, what, what were y'all sleeping arrangements? [00:32:42] Speaker 3: Uh, usually like one of us sleep on the air mattress with him and the other one sleep in the bed. Because the bed was too tall for him. So, we'd never really put him on the bed unless we was both in there, in the bed. [00:32:57] Speaker 2: So, that night, who was laying on the air mattress with him? [00:33:02] Speaker 3: Uh, Trinity. [00:33:09] Speaker 2: What did, what did you do after you laid down on the bed? [00:33:13] Speaker 3: Uh, I've been, I was watching TV. And then, I eventually fell asleep. [00:33:17] Speaker 2: Do you know if JD was asleep or awake when you fell asleep? [00:33:31] Speaker 3: Uh, he was, he was asleep when I woke up. I think I woke up again, like two, and they, um, they were asleep. And, because I looked at my phone and she was doing as hell, like, one or something. And they were asleep when I, so I went back to sleep. [00:33:44] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you went to sleep, and then you woke up. Yeah, about two in the morning. You said at, like, two? Yes. [00:33:52] Speaker 3: And, she was asleep? Yeah, they were both asleep on the air mattress. [00:33:55] Speaker 2: How, how long did, he sleep into, into the next morning? [00:34:27] Speaker 3: Uh, it's probably like 9, 9.30, 9.45. [00:34:31] Speaker 2: So, sometime after 9? Yes. When he woke up, Sunday morning, what was his, what was his, what was his condition? What was his demeanor, his behavior? [00:34:48] Speaker 3: It was fine, like, um, like, uh, about 9, uh, Trinity heard me on my phone. She got in the bed with me. He was still sleeping. Then, when he go reaching for somebody, he'll make a noise trying to feel for you. And, then I went down there to get him and put him between of us, between us, and he was fine. Then, I laid him on my chest, and he was fine. Then, we don't, they're like, what y'all want to eat? Then, she's like, pizza. So, I ordered pizza. Took a shower. I think me and her took a shower. We took a shower. Then. [00:35:17] Speaker 2: Okay, don't you stop right there. I'm going to come back to that point right there in just a second. Okay, but, but I want to clarify a couple of things. Okay, so, you said that she was, she woke up, and then, and she got in the bed with you. [00:35:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:35:31] Speaker 2: And, J.D. was still asleep on the air mattress. Yes. Okay, so then, you said that you heard him. What happened that caused you to, to pick him up? [00:35:40] Speaker 3: He made a noise before he started crying. He feeling, because usually, he like to sleep right up on you. So, you feeling for somebody then. So, that's why I went out and got him. [00:35:49] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you picked him up. You, you said you went down there and got him. Was it you, or was it her that picked him up? [00:35:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was one of us. I, I think it was probably her, I want to say. [00:36:00] Speaker 2: Okay. So, so, she got him, and this is at, this is at 9 o'clock or 9.30 the next morning. Yes. Sunday morning. Yes. Um, and, and you got him and put him in the bed with you. Yes, between us. Or between you. Now, at that point, were, were any of you asleep? [00:36:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:36:22] Speaker 2: So, you were away, she was away, the baby was away. Correct. [00:36:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:36:26] Speaker 2: And so, when he's laying there in between y'all, um, did you, what did you say you did next? [00:36:33] Speaker 3: I put him on my chest. [00:36:41] Speaker 2: And, and then, at some point, y'all started talking about getting something to eat. Correct. So, so that's where we were a minute ago. You were telling this, or you said, you said, and then they wanted to get something to eat. So, so what, what happened from there? [00:36:55] Speaker 3: Oh, we took a shower, um, got him dressed in, um, I sat him in a chair before I got ready to leave, um, she gave him some Moundo and, like, uh, Frito, Doritos, Frito, like, the barbecue Twister chips. Right. And he was sitting there, eat them or whatever. And I left, and, um, when I left. Um, took the trash out, because of what she had in there. [00:37:20] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you said that when she's there, after the shower, right, you sat him in a chair. What, what chair did you sit him in? [00:37:35] Speaker 3: It's, uh, pink. It's like a pink. [00:37:38] Speaker 2: Okay. The chair that's, like, right there next to the bed? [00:37:41] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:37:42] Speaker 2: Okay. And, somebody gave him some Mountain Dew. Yeah. And, and, and what, gave him Mountain Dew and what? [00:37:51] Speaker 3: Frito, Frito chip, barbecue kind. [00:37:56] Speaker 2: Your Honor, I'm sorry, I was trying to flip with one hand and, and, if I could have just a second. Okay. Well, what kind of, what kind of chips were they this year? [00:38:17] Speaker 3: Uh, Frito Twister, barbecue. [00:38:20] Speaker 2: Frito Twister's? [00:38:21] Speaker 3: Yes, barbecue. [00:38:22] Speaker 2: Okay. I'll show you what's been admitted to states at 11. Can you see the, what, what you're talking about in there? [00:38:28] Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, in the Mountain Dew. [00:38:31] Speaker 2: Okay. The state's 10. What, what, what's this blue cup right there? [00:38:35] Speaker 3: Pacifica. That's what it was in, the Mountain Dew was in. [00:38:38] Speaker 2: Okay, there was Mountain Dew in that. [00:38:39] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:38:48] Speaker 2: When y'all, when y'all got in the shower, okay, so you said y'all, y'all were getting in the shower, and, is that when somebody put him in the chair, you put him in the chair? Yes. Okay, so you put him in the chair when you were getting in the shower? [00:38:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:39:00] Speaker 2: And, is that when he got the drink and the chips? Yes. Okay, and where was he when you got out of the shower? We sat in the chair, watching the show. Was he awake? Yes. Um, did he appear to be normal? I mean, was he in the same condition he was in before? Yes. What, did y'all get out of the shower at the same time, or? I think I got out right before. When you got out of the shower, uh, what did you do? [00:39:41] Speaker 3: Uh, put my clothes on. [00:39:45] Speaker 2: Did you do anything in, in connection with JD, or? [00:39:49] Speaker 3: Uh, he was still sitting there, and I told him, bye, when she got out of the shower. And so, when she got out of the shower, you told him, bye? Bye, yeah. I said, I'll be back. And he waved. Okay, where were you going? Uh, I went to Walmart, um, get her some stuff for, what she asked me for, for college, and I went to, um, Peace Hut. [00:40:17] Speaker 2: Now, let me ask you, did you, um, do you remember providing a, uh, um, a video of you in the car with JD when you were coming up from Colquitt? Yes. You remember giving that to the, to the GBI? Yes. Okay. Um, and who was in the car when you took that video? Just me and JD. Um, and what, what day was that? [00:41:00] Speaker 3: Um, that was Saturday. [00:41:01] Speaker 2: That's Saturday. Um, and, and, what, what's my name, number? [00:41:16] Speaker ?: Um, I'm gonna, uh, tender at this time, states exhibit 20, and, and I will represent in the court, it is the, the, the video that Mr. Williams provided to the GBI. [00:41:21] Speaker 2: I'm going to tender at this time States Exhibit 20 and I will represent the court. It is the video that Mr. Williams provided to the GPI during in connection with one of his interviews. And I extracted it from the report and downloaded it onto a separate USB drive for the purpose of presenting it in evidence. And so I will represent that that's what, in fact, owned this thumb drive and I would tendered 20 at this time. [00:42:07] Speaker 1: Do you have any objection to 20? I assume you received it. [00:42:10] Speaker 5: I do not provide it indeed. That is what is on it and I believe that it is, Your Honor. I haven't really seen it. I know it's tailored down from the total, but if it is what he represents, which I believe it is, I do not. [00:42:23] Speaker 2: Okay. Well, it turned out to be something other than I just said that I would withdraw the request to put it in evidence. So, at this time, Your Honor, I ask permission to publish 20. [00:42:39] Speaker 1: All right. It's provisionally admitted so you can publish it. [00:42:43] Speaker ?: All right. Thank you. [00:43:13] Speaker 4: All right. Thank you. [00:43:43] Speaker 2: Let me stop there. Is this the video? Is this what I told the judge it was? Yes, sir. The video that you provided was, you were in the call? Yes, sir. Okay. You and the child, right? Okay. So, at this point, Your Honor, having confirmed that it is what I represented, then I will play it. It's not long, but I'll play the rest of it. [00:44:11] Speaker 4: It's not long, but I'll play it. I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long, but I'll play it. It's not long. Yeah. Well, why don't I have a party? No, he'll be together. Up there. Here it is. Let's try again. You're talking while you're showing the video of the child in the back seat. Who were you talking? What were you doing? I saw one of my friends. Okay. [00:44:49] Speaker 2: Was it via how you sent it? Snapchat. Snapchat. Snapchat. Snapchat. Okay. And at that time, to your knowledge, did the child have any injury or have any wounds, any injuries, anything wrong with him? [00:45:26] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:45:30] Speaker 2: Okay. So y'all got on up to, y'all got here to Americas. Went to the whole thing at the, we're up to the point where you'd gotten out of the shower and you're going to go get some food. Okay. Before that, okay, when you were there in the, in the bed with J.D. and with Ms. Pose, did, uh, what number was that? Did she show you some videos of some sort? [00:46:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:46:13] Speaker 2: Okay. What were those videos of that she showed you? [00:46:15] Speaker 3: Uh, she was, uh, playing with his hand. It was in, uh, her roommate's room and she was, um, playing with his, right, redoing her, uh, his hair. [00:46:23] Speaker 2: Okay. So, that was in, you said that was in her roommate's room? Correct. Okay. Where was her roommate? [00:46:34] Speaker 3: Uh, it worked. [00:46:35] Speaker 2: And were you even, were you aware that she had gone into the roommate's room at any point? Yes. Okay. So, why was she in the roommate's room? [00:46:45] Speaker 3: Uh, because I was going to sleep. And she said she had him and she was going to go play with him. [00:46:50] Speaker 2: So, she, she wasn't going in there to put him to sleep. No. She was going in there. [00:47:02] Speaker 3: There's like, just spend time together. [00:47:05] Speaker 2: So, they could be up while you were going to sleep. Correct. [00:47:08] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:47:08] Speaker 3: And I, I, when I, when I met with you the other day, uh, I showed you some videos and, and asked you if those were the ones that, that she had, uh, shown you. Is that right? [00:47:20] Speaker 2: Correct. [00:47:21] Speaker ?: Um, were they? [00:47:21] Speaker 2: Yes. Uh, and, Your Honor, what I'll do is I'll state to the court that those are the, those are the, those videos were extracted from Ms. Pogue's phone and, uh, they were downloaded. I showed you some videos and asked you if those were the ones that she had shown you. Is that right? Correct. Were they? Yes. And, Your Honor, what I'll do is I'll state to the court that those are the, those videos were extracted from Ms. Poe's phone. And they were downloaded. Of course, they've all been served. I mean, everybody's seen these way ahead of now. And, but again, for the purpose of presenting them in evidence, I moved them onto a separate, onto a separate USB drive, which I am tindering as States Exhibit 21. And again, I would make the representation that it is their complete and accurate copies of what was given. [00:48:18] Speaker 1: Do you have any objection to 21? [00:48:20] Speaker 5: I have no objection with the same caveat concerning the changing in the. [00:48:24] Speaker 1: Well, what I'll do is I'll admit 21 and 20 if for some reason that changes, you alert the court. [00:48:30] Speaker 5: Well, I will. Yeah, but 20, I do not have objection to. It was fine. [00:48:33] Speaker 1: Now that it's been played. [00:48:34] Speaker 2: Okay, I was going to say 20 actually has been admitted, right? [00:48:37] Speaker 1: It has, but I said provisionally because it was subject to him saying that, you know, that he agreed that that was a copy of the video you identified. And what we'll do is we'll admit it and it'll be up, if either of you do this, it'll be up to the other to let me know if it was not as represented. [00:48:54] Speaker 2: So at this time then, I'm going to publish the three videos that are on States Exhibit 21. And these videos, Mr. Williams, you said were done while she was in the other room, in Paris' room, right? [00:49:27] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:49:28] Speaker 2: And you were going to sleep. [00:49:32] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:49:33] Speaker 2: When did you see them for the first time? [00:49:36] Speaker 3: Like, see Paris? [00:49:39] Speaker 2: No, when did you see these videos for the first time? [00:49:41] Speaker 3: Oh, when I woke up the next morning. [00:49:42] Speaker 2: Okay. And so these videos were made sometime during the night. [00:49:49] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:49:49] Speaker 2: Of September, I mean, not September, January the 13th. [00:49:52] Speaker 3: Yes, January the 14th round, yes. The 14th, yes. [00:49:57] Speaker 2: But you don't know exactly what time. No. You weren't in there when they were mad. [00:50:00] Speaker 3: No. No. No. [00:50:28] Speaker 2: That's one of them. And the second one, I'm playing it this time, Your Honor. Now, this video was done that night while you were asleep? [00:50:59] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:51:01] Speaker 2: Okay, so, is that what the child was wearing when he went to bed and woke up the next morning? [00:51:12] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:13] Speaker 2: Is that the same sippy cup that was sitting on the dresser? Yes. Looks a little bit green. Is he drinking Mountain Dew at 12 or 1 o'clock this morning? Yes. Okay, and there was a third one. There was another one, wasn't there? They showed him just taking a few steps walking, is that right? [00:51:39] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:51:40] Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to show that one now. One of the same ones she showed you from that night before? [00:51:45] Speaker 3: Yes, sir. [00:51:46] Speaker 2: And that's still in Paris' room? [00:51:49] Speaker 3: Correct. [00:51:52] Speaker 2: Does he appear in any way to be injured to you? No, sir. Does he appear to be behaving in any way that is different than you would normally expect him to behave, especially late at night? [00:52:05] Speaker 3: No, sir. [00:52:06] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Now, I think you said earlier the child had fallen asleep in the car coming up here from Albany? [00:52:14] Speaker 3: Uh, he fell asleep in the car. [00:52:16] Speaker 2: That's what I said, he fell asleep in the car. Yes. That's correct. He slept some already that night. Yes. Which might explain why he's still up when y'all are going to bed. Correct. [00:52:25] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:52:26] Speaker 2: Okay. So, so that Sunday morning, you left to go get pizza and stuff at Walmart, right? Correct. Correct. How many times did you leave to go to, did you leave the dorm room that morning? [00:52:52] Speaker 3: Uh, no. When I left, I went to Walmart and a pizza. Okay. [00:52:57] Speaker 2: When you left, you came out, were you carrying something when you came out? I had trash bags. [00:53:01] Speaker 3: I was checking the trash out. Okay. [00:53:03] Speaker 2: Why were you throwing the trash away? [00:53:05] Speaker ?: Because it was trash. [00:53:06] Speaker 3: It was like diapers and stuff she already had. [00:53:09] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:53:21] Speaker 2: Was there anything in the trash that you or to your knowledge hurt that anybody was trying to hide or throw away? No, sir. I mean, dispose of in some way to keep it from being found? No, sir. Just regular old trash? Regular old trash. Drink cups and bottles and wrappers and makeup wipes and diapers and so forth, right? Yes, sir. [00:53:45] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:53:51] Speaker 2: So, were you aware that morning or any time the day before or the day before? I mean, any time, let's say that week, okay? Were you aware of the child having a bloody stool, having blood in his poop? No, sir. [00:54:14] Speaker ?: Did you change diapers? [00:54:14] Speaker 2: Yes. [00:54:15] Speaker ?: Do you know how to change diapers? Yes, sir. [00:54:17] Speaker 2: How many dirty diapers do you regularly change in 18 months? Hundreds. And do you think you would have noticed if there had been blood in the stool? Yes, sir. diapers you regularly changed in 18 months? Hundreds. And, and do you think you would have noticed if there had been blood in, in his, in the stool? Yes, sir. Um, did you see anything like that? No, sir. Do you know who changed his diaper Sunday morning? Sunday morning, [00:54:49] Speaker 3: and, uh, or do you remember? After, um, he got out of the shower, um, I think she changed [00:54:53] Speaker 2: him. Yeah. When she changed him Sunday morning, did she say anything to you about, hey, look at this, there's blood in this diaper? No, sir. Did she give you any reason to believe that there was anything that, that was abnormal about the way the, you know, the appearance of the feces? No, sir. What was JD physically doing at the time that you left, you know, the time you walked out the door and you said, bye, I'll be back. What was he doing? He was sitting [00:55:42] Speaker 3: in the chair watching Katoori, eating chips and drinking mandu. What was he watching? Katoori. Katoori. Katoori. Katoori. It's like, um, it's like a little kid show with birds and stuff. [00:55:55] Speaker 2: He was like fascinated in birds. And, I'm not going to worry about putting it up on the screen, but, but where in the, uh, I think there's a shot of the, yeah, in States Exhibit 12, what, can, can you see the, the TV? Yes. Where, where is it? Right now. Okay. So, you say, like, it's like on that, sitting on a black cabinet. Is that a refrigerator? Yes. Um, right in front of the paint chair. Correct. Right. And, and that's, that's where the TV is. So, he was sitting in the pink chair looking at the TV. Yes. Was there anything abnormal about his demeanor when you were leaving? No, sir. Oh, in that three minutes or five minutes that you got out of the shower, uh, you know, three minutes or five minutes or whatever ahead of her. Correct. You said, I think you said a couple of minutes before she did. Yes. Um, did you do anything to harm JD? No, sir. Okay. So, you left, went to Pizza Hut and Walmart. How long were you gone? Maybe 30 minutes. When you went out the door with the trash bags, was that the same trip that you, I mean, that, was that the same trip out the door that you left to go to Walmart? Yes, sir. Okay. So, you didn't go in and out twice? No. Okay. Took trash out, got in your car? All right. Okay. So, you were gone about how long? 30 minutes. Where did you go? I went to Walmart first. Then I went to Pizza Hut. 30 minutes, sir. If the, if the receipt in the Walmart bag, what did you buy at Walmart? [00:57:54] Speaker 3: Walmart, I got ice trays. Um, I got Mountain Dew. I want to say Dr. Pepper. And, um, I think it was like, some cheeses or something. The duo kind. Okay. So, you stayed at 16. Is that [00:58:15] Speaker 2: the stuff that you bought at Walmart? Correct. State 17 is a blow up of the receipt or a photograph of the receipt that was in the bag. Um, can you read the time on there? The time. The bottom. The bottom. 12:14. 12:14 on what day? Um, January 14th. January 14th. Okay. 12:14. Does that sound about right? Yes, sir. That have been about the time you left Walmart? Yes, sir. So, when you were on your way back with Pizza, what, uh, uh, did, did anything happen? Did you get any, any information, anything happen in, in terms of communications with Trinity? Uh, when I was pulling back in on campus, I was, she called me and by the time I went down to the phone, it hung up. So, you're, so you're driving. You, you said you were on campus. Where were you on campus when she called the first time? Um, I was like, probably like a couple of times. Um, I was like, probably like just from the turn in the parking lot. Into the parking lot from her dorm? Yes. Okay. So, and, and the phone rang. Yes. Okay. And you, what did you say? She hung up? It hung up. Okay. Then it was followed by another call. Okay. Okay. When you got another call, um, how, how long was it between the first call that the one that, that hung up and then the next call? Maybe 30 seconds, 20, 30 seconds. Okay. And when you got that call, uh, did she say anything to you? Yeah, I just heard Jenny, Jenny, Jenny. That's all I heard. Okay. So she's calling, but she, she didn't actually say, she knew something's up or whatever? Yeah, I guess she was saying, yeah, she just said Jenny, Jenny, Jenny. That's all I heard. [01:00:22] Speaker 1: Um, just, well, um, is anybody still comfortable? Does anybody need a, need a, need a, need a recess? So make sure it's been about an hour and a half. Okay. [01:00:50] Speaker ?: Okay. Okay. Okay. [01:00:53] Speaker 2: Well, I was looking for something in particular. I'll, I'll find it momentarily. Um, okay. So she called, and you heard her saying, JD, JD. Yes. Um, where, where were you? I was getting out of the car. [01:01:09] Speaker 3: You were getting out of the car. Yes. Yep. [01:01:12] Speaker 2: Did you, was there, was there, was there a, was there a point in there where she told you that something was, something was terrible, that something was going wrong, that whatever? No, not on the phone call. [01:01:37] Speaker 3: Not on the phone call. [01:01:38] Speaker 2: Not on the phone. Okay. So, when you got out of the car, what did you do? [01:01:44] Speaker 3: Uh, open the front, the main entrance, and I just started, I just kept, I sped walked and got into the second door. I sped walked all the way to the room. [01:01:54] Speaker 2: Okay. So, so you, you got out of the car. Did you have anything with you when you got out of the car? [01:02:01] Speaker 3: Yes, uh, no, I want bags and a pizza. And I want to say it was breadsticks also. [01:02:05] Speaker 2: And, so you, you get through the, through the door, it goes onto the hall of the dorm, right? Correct. And, uh, did you then get some idea that there, that something may be wrong? [01:02:35] Speaker 3: No, I didn't know what was wrong. [01:02:37] Speaker 2: Okay. So, but she called, you'd heard her saying JD, JD, so. Yes, I sped walked there. Okay, you mean sped walked. [01:02:46] Speaker 3: Like walking very fast. [01:02:47] Speaker 2: Okay, so you walked fast down the hall. Yeah. When you went through there, and you went into the room, what, what, what happened when you went in the room? [01:02:56] Speaker 3: Uh, she had him in his hands, in her hands is like, he's limp. I don't know. I don't know what happened. So I threw the pizza, dropped the, and grabbed him and took off. [01:03:07] Speaker 2: Okay. So she has it in her hands, and she said what? [01:03:11] Speaker 3: I don't know what's wrong. He's limp. He's not? Like he was, he wasn't functional. [01:03:19] Speaker 2: Okay. So you, you said you threw the pizza down. Where, where did you throw the pizza down? On the bed. And what'd you do with the Walmart bags? [01:03:28] Speaker 3: Uh, I dropped it in the bed. [01:03:30] Speaker 2: Okay. And then what did you do? Grab him and leave. Okay. When you grabbed him and left, where did you, where, where did, how did you leave? Where'd you go? [01:03:40] Speaker 3: To the emergency room. [01:03:42] Speaker 2: Did you go by yourself with him to the emergency room? Yes. [01:03:47] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:03:57] Speaker 2: Do you recall, uh, him getting, JD getting sick? [01:04:02] Speaker 3: Uh, yes. When I got in my car and put it in a virtually start, vomiting and foam and blood started coming out his nose and, and it's. [01:04:12] Speaker 2: So, when, you said that you were in the car, were you, what were you, where was he? Did you, did you take time to put him in the car seat? No, the car seat was in the car seat? [01:04:23] Speaker 3: No, the car seat was in the car. I left him on my shoulder. Okay. [01:04:26] Speaker 2: And I pet him. You had him on, you had him on your shoulder? Yes. And he got sick and, and what did you say was coming out? [01:04:33] Speaker 3: Foam, blood, throw up the, um, Doritos chips. You could smoke, smell it off. [01:04:42] Speaker 2: So, get on your clothes? Yes. Did you, did you stop to clean up or anything before you went to the hospital? No. So, you got to the hospital. [01:04:53] Speaker 3: Probably maybe four minutes. What did you do? I took him, took him to the emergency room. [01:04:57] Speaker 2: Okay. When you got to the emergency room, what happened? [01:05:01] Speaker 3: Um, the doctors, the nurses came back and got him and they, uh, they didn't want to let me back that just then. Then, that's, that's when, um, the, the security, you know, said what was going on. He stepped me outside and asked me what was going on. [01:05:18] Speaker 2: All right. So, so let me, let me, we're going to get to that in just a second. So, you said that the nurse got him. Who, where, how did she get him? What did she get him? What did she get him? [01:05:27] Speaker 3: I put him on a journey. Like, they, they told him and put him on a journey and took him to the back. [01:05:32] Speaker 2: Did she take him from you? Yes. The nurse took him from you? [01:05:35] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:05:36] Speaker 2: Okay. All right. And then, and then took him to the back? Yes. All right. And then you said, somebody came out, somebody came around and said something to you? Yes. [01:05:45] Speaker 3: Who was that? I just carried a guard. [01:05:47] Speaker 2: And, and what was, what was that conversation? Uh, he asked me what was going on and what happened. And do you, what, what did you tell him initially? [01:06:07] Speaker 3: Uh, initially I told him I didn't know he was with my girlfriend. And then when my girlfriend got there, well, when she got there, um, she said, uh, he fell off a chair. [01:06:24] Speaker 2: So, when, when the, when the security guard, when you say security guard, you're talking about Lieutenant Allen from the police department. I mean, he's working there. Is it, I mean, a black guy? Yeah. Not so big. Wearing a, I mean, big guy. Yes, sir. Um, okay. But that's who you're talking about, the off-duty policeman. Correct. Is that right? Correct. Okay. All right. So, you're talking to Allen. He says, what's going on? You said you didn't know. Right. She got there? Yes. Okay. Where were you physically located when she got there? [01:06:59] Speaker 3: Outside. [01:07:04] Speaker 2: And, and, and, did she come up to where you, where, where Allen was? Yes. [01:07:12] Speaker 3: Where you were? [01:07:13] Speaker ?: Yes. Yes. [01:07:15] Speaker 2: Did you, do you know, if she, did she go in the hospital first? Did she come out of the hospital? Did she stop anywhere else or do you know? [01:07:28] Speaker 3: I don't know. [01:07:29] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:07:30] Speaker 2: Did you go in the hospital and get her or anything or were you? No. How did she approach where you were? [01:07:36] Speaker 3: Uh, she came. I guess, um, I guess she just walked up. I don't know if she's seen us outside or what. [01:07:42] Speaker 2: Okay. Right. So, she walked up while you were talking to Allen. And, what did she tell him and, what did she tell Allen while you were standing there? [01:07:53] Speaker 3: He fell off the chair. [01:07:57] Speaker 2: Was that the first time you heard of him falling off a chair? Yes. [01:08:02] Speaker 3: Was that the first time you heard of him falling off a chair? [01:08:03] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:08:17] Speaker 2: So, she, she says he fell off the chair and. Did, did, did some, did some other officers come up there while y'all were, while you were talking to Allen? [01:08:39] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:08:40] Speaker 2: What did you say when, when she said he fell off the chair? [01:08:54] Speaker 3: I said, I, I said, I guess he fell off the chair. I don't, I wasn't there. [01:09:05] Speaker 2: So, did you have any knowledge of your own of him falling off a chair? [01:09:10] Speaker 3: No. [01:09:11] Speaker 2: Or, in falling in the chair? No. Or, in rolling off the bed or anything else? [01:09:16] Speaker 3: No. I had no knowledge of that. [01:09:26] Speaker 2: And, so, so she, so she walks up. Y'all have this brief, y'all have this conversation, continue this conversation with Allen. And, and then what, what, what happens? What y'all do next? [01:09:38] Speaker 3: Um, they let me go back and see him then. They put, put me in a room. Okay. [01:09:44] Speaker 2: So they let you go back and see JD? Yes. Now, did anything come up about, about you signing a, a release or, uh, you signing a consent to treatment or signing any documents or anything come up about, you know, your, your relationship with JD? [01:10:08] Speaker 3: Uh, yes. I told him I was his father. [01:10:11] Speaker 2: Okay. Did, did there, did they require any further? [01:10:16] Speaker 3: No. [01:10:17] Speaker 2: Information from you or whatever regarding that? [01:10:19] Speaker 3: Uh, no, I don't think so. [01:10:22] Speaker 2: Okay. All right. So you, so you went back to see JD and where, where was Ms. Pogue at that point? [01:10:28] Speaker 3: Uh, she was still outside talking to the officers. Okay. [01:10:32] Speaker 2: Did she come in? [01:10:34] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:10:35] Speaker 2: Afterwards? Yes. Okay. Where did, where did she go? Where did you go when, when she came in to where you were? [01:10:42] Speaker 3: They put us in, um, like a room off. Out of the lobby, but it was like a room. Room they put us in and, and wait us to tell us the results or whatever. Okay. [01:10:53] Speaker 2: So, so y'all were both in one room? [01:10:56] Speaker 3: Yes. Together. [01:10:58] Speaker 2: And when you, when you're, when you're in that room, uh, was there, did, did someone come in to tell you, did a medical, one of the medical personnel, doctor, nurse, somebody come in to tell you what was going on? [01:11:18] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:11:19] Speaker 2: Okay. When they came in to tell you what was going on, were you on the phone with anyone or did you? Yes. Ask to call, ask him if you could call someone? Yes. [01:11:29] Speaker 3: I called my cousin. [01:11:30] Speaker 2: Okay. Who was your cousin? [01:11:32] Speaker 3: Johnny. She's a nurse. [01:11:34] Speaker 2: Uh, why, why did you want her to be on the phone when they were telling you what, what was going on with your son? [01:11:43] Speaker 3: Uh, because she was a nurse and she was like the close, the last relative I talked to. [01:11:49] Speaker 2: Was your sister there then? No, not yet. [01:11:53] Speaker 3: Was she on the way? [01:11:54] Speaker 2: Yes. Did you notify her or told her? [01:11:56] Speaker 3: Yeah, she was on the way. Okay. [01:11:58] Speaker 2: Um, so, you, did, did, did you do anything to make it so that Joni could hear what the, what the doctor said when the doctor came in to talk? [01:12:08] Speaker 3: Yes, I put him on speaker. [01:12:10] Speaker 2: And, did you get a report from the doctor and she, she hear the report from the doctor? [01:12:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:12:21] Speaker 2: Um, what, what, what, what was, I mean, if you, if you can recall, what, what was your understanding of what they had found or what his condition was right then? [01:12:35] Speaker 3: Okay, it's cool. [01:12:36] Speaker 2: Was there some conversation or communication about possibly transferring him to another facility somewhere? [01:12:49] Speaker 3: Yes, air flight him to Atlanta. [01:12:54] Speaker 2: Did you consent to that? Yes. So, did, did that ever happen? [01:13:00] Speaker 3: No, when the helicopter landed at he, they said he wouldn't make it to the helicopter. They said he wouldn't be able to make it to the helicopter. Yes. [01:13:09] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:13:10] Speaker 2: Okay. When the doctor was telling you the news about the condition of your child, did, uh, was there something said by Joni that caused Ms. Poe to react in some way? Yes. [01:13:31] Speaker ?: Yes. [01:13:31] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Mr. Williamson, we, we broke. Um, the question I had asked you is when you, when the, you put Joni on the phone and she heard the report from the doctor, um, did she make a comment of some sort to which Ms. Poe then reacted? Um, and I think you said yes. Yes. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. Okay. What was the statement that Joni made? If, um, the report from the doctor? [01:14:06] Speaker 3: If the baby dies, somebody's getting charged with murder. [01:14:09] Speaker 2: If the baby dies, somebody's going to be charged with murder. When that statement was made, did Trinity Pogue's demeanor or expression appear to change in any way? Yes. How, how, how did it change? Like what, what was, what was her, you know, her reaction to the statement and what did she do? [01:14:34] Speaker 3: She got up and said, I'm going to call my parents. [01:14:37] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:14:38] Speaker 2: Okay. So did she leave that room then? [01:14:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:14:42] Speaker 2: From that point forward, was there another time that you and Ms. Pogue were in a, in a, in a room or whatever together? [01:14:56] Speaker 3: No. [01:14:57] Speaker ?: No. [01:15:24] Speaker 2: I want to go backwards a little bit to a couple of things that I, I did, don't think I covered in, in much detail. So let me go back to earlier. You said that, that week when you, you'd been in Americas and you, you stayed in her room and then you, you'd gone to work and then you came back, right? Yes. And then you got a hotel room on Thursday night and you told about what happened there. Yes. Okay. So you, you said that y'all had been fighting or arguing throughout that, that week. Well, do you recall what it was you were arguing about? [01:16:04] Speaker 3: Uh, there was an argument about, um, she went out and, um, she went to one of her friends or somebody else's room and they were smoking marijuana and I didn't like that. Okay. [01:16:16] Speaker 2: Okay. Was, was part of what was going on between y'all, did it have, did, was there anything that was going on between y'all that had to do with her not returning some, some phone calls or messages or something that you had sent? [01:16:35] Speaker 3: Uh, yes. That's what she was doing. That's why she didn't answer me. [01:16:38] Speaker 2: Okay. So, so she was at a party or something and, and she didn't, she was with other people. Yes. And she didn't answer when you called her? Yes. Okay. And, um, I mean, what was your reaction to that when you didn't hear from her, when, when, when she didn't answer or you didn't hear back from her? [01:16:56] Speaker 3: Uh, I was home at the time. I'm sorry? [01:16:59] Speaker 2: I was home at the time. [01:17:00] Speaker 3: Okay. [01:17:01] Speaker 2: Um, but I mean, what, what was your reaction to that? Did you, did that, I mean, were you, were you upset about the fact that she wasn't responding to you or whatever? [01:17:11] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:17:12] Speaker 2: Okay. Um, did y'all make some, did y'all have some kind of discussion about, uh, social media, uh, credentials? [01:17:22] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:17:23] Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. You had credentials or was it, was it Snapchat or Instagram or what? [01:17:28] Speaker 3: Oh, we, we had, uh, we had, uh, all out each other's passwords and I asked for an Instagram password at that time. [01:17:35] Speaker 2: Okay. So y'all had each other's passwords? Correct. To your social media? Yes. So she could access, she could log in to, to your account. [01:17:45] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:17:46] Speaker 2: And you could log in to hers? [01:17:48] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:17:49] Speaker 2: Okay. Uh, was there one account that she didn't give you access to or the credentials to? [01:17:55] Speaker 3: Yes, her Instagram. [01:17:56] Speaker 2: Okay. Did she give you any explanation of why she didn't want you to have access to, to her Instagram account? Uh, she didn't. [01:18:03] Speaker 3: She didn't. We just argued and I was like, whatever. It's cool. [01:18:07] Speaker 2: Y'all were just arguing about it? Yes. Okay. And, did you, did you do anything about the fact that, that she, for whatever reason, uh, she didn't want to let you have access to that particular account? [01:18:23] Speaker 3: No. [01:18:24] Speaker 2: Was that part of the, the, kind of the, the, you know, trying to make nice, make, make, make up, you know, that hotel room so y'all could, you know, be away from the dorm and so forth? Yes. Um, and, uh, were y'all, uh, uh, were y'all back on better terms again? Yes. By the end of the week? [01:18:58] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:18:59] Speaker ?: Had she ever told you that she didn't like. JD? Or that she hated JD? Or made any comments like that? She, she made comments but it's like, but then like maybe a few hours like she like, I always treat him like he's mine. [01:19:24] Speaker 2: Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Did she make comments about whether JD liked her? Yes. [01:19:32] Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. What were those comments? [01:19:35] Speaker ?: What was, what was, what was, what was her. [01:19:35] Speaker 3: Um. Um. She was like, he don't like me. I said, you gotta give it time. Okay. [01:19:40] Speaker ?: He said, he, she said that he liked her. He said that he liked her. And I always treat him like he's mine. I always treat him like he's mine. Um. Um. [01:19:47] Speaker 2: Did she make comments about whether J.D. liked her? [01:19:59] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:20:00] Speaker 2: What were those comments? What was her statement? [01:20:02] Speaker 3: She was like, he don't like myself, you got to give it time. [01:20:05] Speaker 2: She said that he didn't like her and you told her that she would have to give him time. Yes. Thank you. If I could have just a moment to confer with the folks on my table, please. [01:21:17] Speaker ?: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [01:21:28] Speaker 2: Did you love your child? [01:21:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:21:47] Speaker 2: Did you harm him? [01:21:50] Speaker 3: No. [01:21:51] Speaker 2: Would you have stood by and allowed her to do so if you knew that she would or might? [01:22:03] Speaker 3: No. [01:22:11] Speaker 2: Thank you. [01:22:13] Speaker 1: Cross-exemination, Mr. General. [01:22:17] Speaker 5: Yes, Your Honor. Good evening, Mr. Williams. I'm T. Gamble. I represent Trinity Pogue. How are you today? [01:22:33] Speaker 3: All right. [01:22:34] Speaker 5: I have a few questions for you, Mr. Pogue. First of all, you've testified about, I want to talk to you a little bit about when, last weekend you were with Trinity and this incident finally ended up happening on Sunday, okay? [01:22:47] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:22:48] Speaker 5: Now, I know, first of all, that you arrived for the time with the child, the first time you arrived was on Saturday night, correct? Yes. Previous to that, the time you were visiting with Trinity was without your child, correct? [01:23:02] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:23:03] Speaker 5: And it's my understanding that y'all have been dating since June of 2023 officially, is that right? Yes. Now, you said something in your testimony when you began, though. You said, yeah, we began dating officially in June of 2023, but we've been off and on before that, is that right? [01:23:24] Speaker 3: Yes, like Texan. [01:23:26] Speaker 5: And Texan, is that meaning, like, trying to get a relationship going? [01:23:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, you can say. [01:23:31] Speaker 5: How long had y'all been doing that before you became boyfriend and girlfriend? [01:23:34] Speaker 3: Maybe a month or two. [01:23:35] Speaker 5: So, really, only if this was June, maybe April, something like that. Had you known Trinity, though, for some time prior to that? Yes. But not in a boyfriend-girlfriend way? No. You first start dating, she is 18 years old, is that right? Correct. And at that time, were you 22 or 23? [01:23:54] Speaker 3: 22. [01:23:55] Speaker 5: Now, when this incident happened in January of 2024, how old were you then? [01:24:01] Speaker 3: 23. [01:24:02] Speaker 5: And she was still 18? [01:24:04] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:24:07] Speaker 5: Now, this relationship that you had, as I understand it, you would come quite often to her dorm and spend the night, correct? [01:24:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:24:14] Speaker 5: And you would do that during the weekday a lot of times, correct? [01:24:18] Speaker 3: Sometimes. [01:24:19] Speaker 5: So, even though you're working out of Bainbridge, I guess y'all work all around, though, right? [01:24:24] Speaker 3: No, I work in Bainbridge. [01:24:25] Speaker 5: You work in Bainbridge, man. So, you would come and spend the night at her dorm and then get up and go back to work in Bainbridge? [01:24:31] Speaker 3: Yes, leave like 5 in the morning. [01:24:33] Speaker 5: Okay. But would it be common for you to at least spend the night a couple times a week on a weekday with her? [01:24:38] Speaker 3: Yes, if she has. [01:24:39] Speaker 5: And that would be from August when she enrolled in school until that January, correct? And would it be fair to state that you averaged at least once or twice a weekday from August up until January? [01:24:52] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:24:53] Speaker 5: In addition, you usually came on weekends, correct? [01:24:56] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:24:57] Speaker 5: And did you normally stay Friday and Saturday or just Saturdays? [01:25:01] Speaker 3: Probably just Saturdays. [01:25:02] Speaker 5: So, you would come and spend the night Saturday night and then leave Sunday? Correct. You didn't spend the night on Sunday and leave on Monday morning? [01:25:08] Speaker 3: Maybe sometimes. [01:25:09] Speaker 5: So, either way, it could be a one-day weekend or a two-day weekend? Or a two-day weekend. Yes. Was that almost every weekend? [01:25:15] Speaker 3: Sometimes. Maybe one of every weekend. [01:25:17] Speaker 5: Well, I mean, sometimes. Were there any weekends that were missed during from August until January? [01:25:22] Speaker 3: Maybe one or two. [01:25:23] Speaker 5: So, one or two out of that whole time period you might have missed, right? Yes. So, you were seeing it quite a bit, right? Correct. And we know most of the time when you came, you did not have J.D. with you, correct? Correct. So, we know that when you came a couple times a week and on the weekends that you had left the child, you cared for by someone else, correct? Correct. And that would be your sister, Ms. Burr, correct? Correct. And so, you live with Ms. Burr and would it be fair to state that for the most part, Ms. Burr took care of J.D. day-to-day for just your regular things that need to be done for that child? Correct. And a lot of times, she was alone with the child because you're with Trinity, correct? [01:26:03] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:26:04] Speaker 5: And so, you were letting her take care of the child, right? [01:26:06] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:26:07] Speaker 5: And you testified earlier that the baby mama of this child gave you the child or turned the child over to you, whatever you want to say when the child was two or three months old, correct? Correct. So, you said, I'm going back to Mexico and for the most part, she was out of the picture after that, correct? [01:26:22] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:26:23] Speaker 5: Now, at the time that she had the child, however, this child was born, the baby mama was actually married to another man, was she not? [01:26:32] Speaker 3: Yes, after I found that out after he was deceased. [01:26:35] Speaker 5: But you didn't know it at the time? [01:26:37] Speaker 3: No, I didn't know. [01:26:38] Speaker 5: But you know it now, correct? Correct. And you have never legitimated the child or anything of that nature, have you? No. So, in other words, you haven't been legally declared to be the father, correct? Correct. Have you ever done a DNA test? No. But nobody's ever disputed you as the father, right? No. I mean, the baby mama admits and the knowledge is you're daddy, correct? Correct. But once you got the child, from the time that she left the child with you, am I right that you have not one time taken the child to see a doctor? [01:27:10] Speaker 3: I haven't. I often go back to tell her to give it to her mom or her. She got back in, like, February of 23. [01:27:17] Speaker 5: You're saying a couple of times you took her back to see mama and she took her to the doctor. Yes. Is that right? Have you seen the medical records of the child that were obtained by the GBI? No. So, you're not aware of how many times the child has had a wellness check, are you? [01:27:31] Speaker 3: No. [01:27:31] Speaker 5: And you don't know whether the child was being immunized for all the different things that children get, do you? [01:27:37] Speaker 3: Yes, I know he got shots. [01:27:38] Speaker 5: You know he got some shots? Correct. Do you know whether he's up to date on these shots? [01:27:42] Speaker 3: He was, I know for a fact, he went, he was nine months and a year, I want to say. [01:27:47] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:27:48] Speaker 5: But you know you've never taken him to a doctor? [01:27:50] Speaker 3: No. [01:27:51] Speaker 5: Now, on at least one occasion isn't it true that you came to see Trinity in some fashion y'all were meeting or she was coming to you or you to her in which you came up with the child without a car seat? [01:28:04] Speaker 3: No. [01:28:05] Speaker 5: You've never had a time when Trinity was mad with you because you didn't have a car seat? No. You don't recall telling anybody that? No. You wouldn't have said that to any law enforcement? [01:28:15] Speaker 3: No. [01:28:16] Speaker 5: When you came on the video that you showed, you were shown a little bit ago, you remember that one that you made that you gave to GBI? You recall that video? Yes. That video seems to appear to show that the car seat that the child's in is facing the same direction as you, is that correct? Correct. You're aware that a child on the floor is not supposed to be forward facing in a vehicle? [01:28:39] Speaker 3: No, I was not aware. [01:28:40] Speaker 5: You were not aware of that. So that was not a safety concern to you? [01:28:44] Speaker 3: No. [01:28:45] Speaker 5: Now on the Saturday that you met Trinity, I think you testified already that y'all went to Chipotle, correct? Correct. And initially you told her you were coming to meet her and she did not know that J.D. was going to be with you, but you said J.D. was going to be with me, correct? [01:29:01] Speaker 3: No. [01:29:02] Speaker 5: You didn't tell her J.D. was going to be with you? No, she told me to bring J.D. Oh, so you're saying she just said bring J.D. Correct. And that was fine with you, right? Yes. And that was an indication she wanted you to bring the child, correct? Correct. And you testified already that as far as you could tell up until this whole situation occurred that you felt like that she was all right with the child, correct? Correct. And most of the time when you would bring the child around her, isn't it true if y'all went somewhere like walking in the store, more times than not, she would be the person carrying J.D.? [01:29:37] Speaker 3: Yes, she wanted to carry her. [01:29:38] Speaker 5: She wanted to. [01:29:38] Speaker 3: But most of the times I carried her. [01:29:40] Speaker 5: And you didn't care if she carried her, though, right? Correct. I mean, I've seen several pictures. They always seem to show her carrying the child, correct? Correct. You saw the video of y'all going into the dorm on Saturday night. She was the one carrying the sleeping child, correct? [01:29:52] Speaker 3: Yes, because I carried everything out the car. [01:29:54] Speaker 5: I understand. You had your hands full and you let her carry them, correct? Correct. But you didn't have any problems with that, right? No. And you hadn't had any problems with that, right? No. And you would feel okay with bringing the child around her, correct? [01:30:06] Speaker 3: Yeah, at the time. [01:30:07] Speaker 5: Now, the relationship you had, you've already described somewhat, is a volatile relationship between you and Trinity in the sense that y'all bicker and fight a lot, correct? Correct. And not only bicker and fight, but there would be these declarations that it's over or we're breaking up for a little short period of time, right? Yes. It would be fair to state that most of the time when one of the others said we're breaking up, that only lasted for an hour or two? Correct. And there was no real breakup at all? No. There's an old song called Break Up to Make Up. We all kind of live in a relationship like that? Yeah, I guess. I mean, y'all were together, then you'd say we're breaking up, then you'd say we're back together, right? Yes. And y'all had a lot of fussing going on. A lot of it was because she was not happy with what she considered to be you wanting to control everything she did, correct? Correct? No. You don't agree that you were requiring her to let you know where she was at at all times? [01:31:04] Speaker 3: No, I did not require her every time. [01:31:06] Speaker 5: You didn't demand when you text her that you expected her to text back right away to know that she got the text and know what she was doing? Yes. You did want that, right? Yeah. And you wanted all of her passcodes to all of her accounts, correct? [01:31:20] Speaker 3: She wanted mine first, so I gave her mine and she gave me hers. [01:31:23] Speaker 5: But you wanted hers, right? [01:31:24] Speaker 3: Correct. She had one of mine first. [01:31:26] Speaker 5: You didn't like it when she wouldn't give you one of them or you thought she wouldn't give it, correct? [01:31:30] Speaker 3: Yeah, she didn't give it. [01:31:31] Speaker 5: And you all fussed and thought about that, correct? [01:31:33] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:31:34] Speaker 5: And there were other times that you all argued because of you being unhappy that she had gone to a party or gone someplace where there were girlfriends and had boyfriends or things like that and you thought she was around other guys, correct? No. You never had those kind of jealousies? No. You never had those arguments? No. But you all did do a lot of arguing, nevertheless, right? [01:31:54] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:31:55] Speaker 5: And one of the things that you also were told by Trinity to some extent was that although she was in a relationship with you, she would have preferred not to have a child because you already had a child and it was not hers, correct? Correct. Now, she wasn't saying she didn't like J.D. as much as she was saying that she wanted to have a child of her own, correct? [01:32:15] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:32:16] Speaker 5: And she never expressed to you, I think you told some of the people that interviewed you, she never expressed to you that she didn't like J.D., correct? [01:32:24] Speaker 3: No. [01:32:25] Speaker 5: Now, she did express she thought J.D. didn't like her, right? Yes. And you told her, give it some time, right? Correct. And it's fair to state that you all had not been around each other or Trinity and the child had not been around each other a whole lot, even in January. They'd been around several times, but it had not been a lot of times, had it? [01:32:44] Speaker 3: I'd say at least ten times they'd seen each other. [01:32:48] Speaker 5: Ten total times? [01:32:49] Speaker 3: Maybe. That's the minimum. [01:32:51] Speaker 5: And you were comfortable with those times, correct? [01:32:53] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:32:54] Speaker 5: Now, when you went to the hospital that night with the child, isn't it true that when you saw the hospital personnel, that you told them that your child had fallen only five minutes prior to arriving at the hospital? [01:33:15] Speaker 3: No. [01:33:16] Speaker 5: Do you have any explanation for why that notation would have been contained within the hospital records of your child? No. [01:33:21] Speaker 2: Ches, in your honor, did calls for this week to speculate about why a record would say something? I mean, he can question the maker of the record about that. [01:33:33] Speaker 1: Mr. Gannon, what's your response to that? [01:33:35] Speaker 5: My response is he can answer the question if he has any reason to know why anybody would do that. He can say no or yes, John. [01:33:41] Speaker 1: All right, well, I'll allow him to answer the question. [01:33:44] Speaker 5: Repeat it. Do you know any reason why the hospital records of your son at the hospital would have a notation saying that you had said that? Yes. Why would it say that? [01:33:55] Speaker 3: Because she told the officer that. So that's what she told me. [01:33:58] Speaker 5: So did they confuse you with her? [01:34:00] Speaker 3: No, but she told me an officer that, so that's what I was told. [01:34:06] Speaker 5: Did you also tell Lieutenant Allen that the child had failed? [01:34:09] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:34:10] Speaker 5: You did tell him. [01:34:11] Speaker 3: After she told me. [01:34:15] Speaker 5: Now, on the night, the day of Sunday when this event occurred, you testified about how y'all woke up in the morning, correct? [01:34:24] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:34:25] Speaker 5: And then y'all were all together for a bit and you said you put J.D. on your chest, correct? Correct. And I don't know how long that would be, but I assume if you're like most folks, you do that, but you don't last a long, long time. Was that just for a short period of time they laid on your chest? [01:34:39] Speaker 3: Yeah, a short period of time. [01:34:40] Speaker 5: And you said that y'all discussed a few things and then ordered some pizza, correct? Correct. So we can know if the time frame for that would have had to have been getting close to 11, 30, 12 o'clock, correct? Correct. Because we know that you left to go get the pizza sometime like that right before 12, correct? Correct. And I assume you had enough time to feel like that order would be filled when you got there, right? Correct. And you also said one other thing that you had talked about it and then you ordered the pizza and then y'all went and got up and took a shower together, correct? Correct. So that would have been before you went to get the pizza you took a shower, correct? Correct. But after you ordered the pizza, right? [01:35:23] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:35:23] Speaker 5: So the time that it took to take a shower would have been the time that the pizza could be prepared, correct? Correct. And then when you took the shower, as I understand it, you got out a little bit before she did, correct? Correct. You even stated that you were there with the child and you were going to tell the child, bye, but you told the child, bye, after you were waiting on her to get out of the shower. And when she got out of the shower, then you told him, bye, and you left, correct? [01:35:49] Speaker 3: Yes, correct. Correct. [01:35:56] Speaker 5: Now, isn't it true that once she got out of the shower that you were there holding the child and the child was crying at that time? No. You don't recall the time when the child was crying there that morning? No. You don't know anything about that? [01:36:09] Speaker 3: No. [01:36:10] Speaker 5: What about crying the night before on Saturday night? Do you know anything about the child crying Saturday night? [01:36:16] Speaker 3: Supposedly he cried around 12. [01:36:18] Speaker 5: But you don't know that, do you? [01:36:19] Speaker 3: No, I got up like two. [01:36:22] Speaker 5: But your testimony, or at least your statements that maybe have been made to other individuals, indicate that you didn't know that the child was crying at 12 o'clock or whatever time it was, correct? Correct. You didn't wake up, did you? [01:36:35] Speaker 3: No. [01:36:36] Speaker 5: Now, when you went to bed Saturday night, you went to bed before anyone else did, didn't you? Yeah, it was like 11. You go to bed at 11, but that leaves Trinity and the child up, correct? Correct. And you had been drinking at that time, correct? [01:36:49] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:36:50] Speaker 5: And in fact, you were drinking a particular type of liquor, were you not? Correct. You were drinking rum? Yes. What kind of rum were you drinking? Bamboo. And is that the type of rum that was in the room there where Trinity lived? Yes. And that bottle was almost finished by the night, was it not? [01:37:10] Speaker 3: I didn't buy that bottle that day. [01:37:13] Speaker 5: I did not ask you if you bought the bottle. Yes. But it was almost finished, right? Correct. And that was your bottle, correct? Correct. In fact, Trinity doesn't drink, does she? Yes, she does. What does she drink? [01:37:24] Speaker 3: She drank white claws. She drank, at the time, I think, she was maybe drinking margaritas. [01:37:30] Speaker 5: Well, she didn't drink any of that rum, did she? [01:37:34] Speaker 3: Not that, no. [01:37:35] Speaker 5: And you testified earlier, I believe, that you did have that rum with you when you arrived on Saturday night, correct? Correct. And you had it with you when you arrived with the child to meet her at Chipotle, correct? Correct. But your statement was, you didn't start drinking from it until y'all went to change the child over, is that? Correct. [01:37:53] Speaker 3: I pulled a cup on top of the car. [01:37:55] Speaker 5: So that was the first time you started drinking? [01:37:57] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:37:58] Speaker 5: But y'all decided to go ahead and move the car seat out of your car into her car, correct? Correct. And move the child from your car to her car, correct? Correct. So y'all didn't drive to Slumper County, correct? Correct. But it didn't have anything to do with the fact you'd already been drinking? [01:38:12] Speaker 3: I started drinking after he was out of my car. I pulled a cup after he was in her car. [01:38:20] Speaker 5: Now, you testified, I believe, earlier that although you had never hurt the child, that you were okay with certain corporal punishment, like popping them on hand, correct? Correct. That was all right with you? Correct. And so it was all right with you if Trinity would do that as well? No. No? Just you? No, correct. And I'm not saying you were abusing the child by doing that, but if he did something he didn't like, you'd pop him on hand and say no, I guess, right? Correct. That was your form of punishment? [01:38:44] Speaker 3: Correct. Correct. [01:39:02] Speaker 5: Now, when you went out on Saturday night and you went to Chipotle and then you ended up going to McDonald's, you acknowledged that from all accounts that your child either ate nothing or only ate a couple of french fries, correct? He ate a couple of french fries. [01:39:17] Speaker ?: He ate before he left. [01:39:17] Speaker 5: He ate before he left. He ate before he left, but still at McDonald's ate nothing, correct? He ate fries. Very few fries. Correct. You said a couple. When you got up on Sunday morning, do you allege that he ate anything that day? [01:39:29] Speaker 3: Yes, he was eating Fritos when I left, I was going to get pizza. [01:39:32] Speaker 5: So, you believe he was actually eating Fritos? Yeah, he was. So, that should show up in his stomach contents if they take up on the vaccine, Your Honor, it requires some goodness to speculate about something that he couldn't possibly know the medical answer to. Not a medical question, Your Honor. [01:39:50] Speaker 1: If you can lay the basis for his knowledge, I'll let you ask him, otherwise I think that would probably be left to the doctor. [01:39:56] Speaker 5: Mr. Williams, have you watched people eat in the past in your lifetime? Yes. Have you watched your child eat in the past? Yes. And do you watch yourself eat? Yes. And when you ingest food, does it normally go into your mouth? Correct. Where does it go after it goes from your mouth? Stomach. And you would expect if someone was eating, would you not, for the contents of what they were eating to end up in the person's stomach, correct? Correct. [01:40:17] Speaker 3: It was all over my shirt. I still got a shirt at the house. [01:40:20] Speaker 5: Well, the shirt you say he threw up on, correct? [01:40:23] Speaker 3: Correct. Shirt and jacket. [01:40:24] Speaker 5: Now, that shirt and jacket, did the Georgia Bureau of Investigation take that shirt and jacket into evidence? [01:40:29] Speaker 3: No, it's still sitting at the end of my bed, never been washed. [01:40:32] Speaker 5: Did they ever ask you anything about it? [01:40:34] Speaker 3: No. [01:40:34] Speaker 5: On the day when you were at the hospital, did the GBI ask you anything about this supposed stuff that's on your coat and shirt? [01:40:43] Speaker 3: No, they didn't ask. [01:40:44] Speaker 5: No one has to ask you, haven't they? No. Now, did the Georgia Bureau of Investigation interview you? Correct. More than once? [01:40:50] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:40:52] Speaker 5: Now, beyond interviewing you, they interviewed your sister, I believe, didn't they? Correct. Did they interview any of your friends, to your knowledge? No, not in my knowledge. Anyone that lives around you in Bainbridge? [01:41:02] Speaker 3: I don't stay in Bainbridge. I stay in Cockrell. [01:41:03] Speaker 5: In Cockrell, I'm sorry. Are you working in Bainbridge? Correct. Anybody in Cockrell? [01:41:08] Speaker 3: No. [01:41:08] Speaker 5: To your knowledge, they do any background check on you at all other than just question you? [01:41:12] Speaker 3: Not in my knowledge. [01:41:17] Speaker 5: Now, when you talked about the phone call with your sister that was a nurse, didn't say whatever she said, and Trinity decided to go call her mother. At that time, Trinity was there just with you, correct? [01:41:30] Speaker 3: Yes, and the hall manager, them just sitting in the lobby. [01:41:34] Speaker 5: Now, there were people there with you, or wasn't it? [01:41:36] Speaker 3: Yes, my sister and cousin, and both of my cousins got there. [01:41:41] Speaker 5: Right. You had, I believe, Cecil Grant, A.J. Grant, your sister, and a friend all with you, right? Yes. So, here you are with a child that something bad has happened to. You're talking to your nurse sister on the phone. You're surrounded by some friends and family, and she makes that statement, but Trinity is all by herself, correct? [01:42:00] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:42:01] Speaker 5: So, it's sort of reasonable for her to want to call her mama and be around somebody as well, correct? As well, yes. That wasn't unusual, was it? [01:42:08] Speaker 3: No. What the reaction was. [01:42:18] Speaker 5: Now, you said you didn't hear the child, your child, crying in the night, the night before, but you are aware that people in the dorm claim that the child was crying during the night, aren't you? [01:42:30] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:42:32] Speaker 5: And you were told by Trinity that the child fell off the bed, were you not? [01:42:37] Speaker 3: No. [01:42:38] Speaker 5: You're claiming you didn't know that? [01:42:40] Speaker 3: No. [01:42:40] Speaker 5: Now, your child at times, J.D. at times, would have a mark on one of his cheeks, would he not, from some type of rash that he had from time to time? [01:43:13] Speaker 3: Exima. [01:43:14] Speaker 5: Exima. And that was something that would come up and be red-looking or something of that nature? [01:43:19] Speaker 3: Yes, like light red. [01:43:21] Speaker 5: Sometime it almost like a bruise, correct? [01:43:23] Speaker 3: No. Never looked like a bruise. [01:43:24] Speaker 5: It'd be a noticeable mark on the face, though, correct? Yes. [01:43:27] Speaker 3: It usually comes and goes away the same day. Right. Within hours. [01:43:31] Speaker 5: You'd have that from time to time, correct? [01:43:32] Speaker 3: Time to time. [01:43:33] Speaker 5: Now, on the night before the hospital of Sunday, you'll acknowledge that Trinity is the one that bathed your child that night. [01:43:49] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:43:50] Speaker 5: And Trinity is the one that put the clothes on the child to go to bed, correct? [01:43:54] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:43:55] Speaker 5: And Trinity even did the child's hair that night, correct? [01:43:58] Speaker 3: Yes. After my sister did it the same day. She was just fixing it. [01:44:02] Speaker 5: But it wasn't unusual for Trinity to do those type things, was it? Correct. And I hear you correctly that when you got the call from Trinity that you said you couldn't understand there were two calls in a row that you fast walked back into the hallway into the dorm? [01:44:32] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:44:35] Speaker 5: I assume when you say fast walking, you mean almost like you see somebody that's exercising and really going fast? [01:44:40] Speaker 3: Yes, be welcome. [01:44:54] Speaker 5: Now, the night before this occurred and in the morning, isn't it true that Trinity had been telling you that she just really wasn't ready to deal with this whole situation with the child and you and she wanted you just to go back and it was time to break up? [01:45:11] Speaker 3: No. [01:45:12] Speaker 5: You weren't upset about that that morning? [01:45:14] Speaker 3: No. [01:45:15] Speaker 5: You weren't hungover that morning? [01:45:17] Speaker 3: No. [01:45:18] Speaker 5: Those things weren't playing into your mind and things that were going on at the time of that morning? [01:45:23] Speaker 3: No. [01:45:24] Speaker 5: How far is it to the pizza place from your dorm? [01:45:29] Speaker 3: I don't got no dorm. [01:45:31] Speaker 5: Well, her dorm, I'm sorry. [01:45:32] Speaker 3: What, 10 minutes? Maybe? [01:45:35] Speaker 5: It's here in America's? Correct. That's all the questions I have, yeah. [01:45:44] Speaker 1: Mr. Dillain, do you have any cross-examination or further direct? I do. I do. [01:45:49] Speaker ?: I do. [01:45:49] Speaker 1: I do. I do. [01:46:18] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:46:48] Speaker 2: Thank you. Thank you. When you were talking, I asked you, if you recall, do you recall me asking you, what were you talking about when you told the GBI interviewer, when you told her that you were aware that there was a mark on his cheek? [01:48:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, so he has eczema. [01:48:16] Speaker 2: Yeah, that you were aware that there was a mark on the cheek, but it wasn't a bruise. [01:48:20] Speaker 3: No, correct. [01:48:21] Speaker 2: Is that right? [01:48:21] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:48:22] Speaker 2: And, in fact, when I met with you, do you recall me showing you a photograph from who was actually taken at the autopsy? [01:48:32] Speaker 1: Correct. [01:48:34] Speaker 2: And, and I, what did it, it was a mark that was on his right cheek, what did I, do you recall what I asked you about that mark? Yeah, it was a bruise. Okay, did that, you recall me asking you if it had been there before? [01:48:49] Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I remember you saying that. [01:48:51] Speaker 2: Was that the mark you were referring to when you told him you knew he had a mark on his face? No, sir. Had you seen that mark on his face before? [01:48:59] Speaker 3: No, sir. [01:49:02] Speaker 2: When, when the eczema appears, I'm going to show you 22 and, say it's 22 and 23, I, you, remember you sent me some videos, correct? Correct. And, and I'm going to represent you to, these are just screenshots from the videos, okay? Okay. Do you recognize the photographs, 22 and 23? [01:49:22] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:49:23] Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, do you recognize those being from videos that you had taken on your phone? [01:49:29] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:49:29] Speaker 2: Okay. So, on stage 22, uh, is there a, a portion of his face that shows one version of the eczema, what it sometimes looks like? Yes. And, and, and, where, where is that on here? [01:49:43] Speaker 3: Right there. [01:49:43] Speaker 2: Okay, you're pointing to his, to his left cheek? Yes. Okay. Your Honor, I would tender stage 22 at this time? [01:49:49] Speaker 1: Any objection? [01:49:52] Speaker 2: Okay, so the, so what you're going to, his left cheek, is sort of a, a, a white patchy looking area on his cheek, is that right? [01:50:02] Speaker 3: Yes, dry skin. [01:50:03] Speaker 2: Okay, dry skin, all right. And then, the other sort of manifestation of eczema, when it, when it appeared on his face, uh, was, was what? [01:50:16] Speaker 3: The eczema. [01:50:17] Speaker 2: No, but what, what, what did it look like? What, what is, if it wasn't the white patchy? [01:50:21] Speaker 3: It's like a little light, bright red. [01:50:23] Speaker 2: Okay, all right, and is that what's shown in states exhibit 23? Yes. Um, of tender states exhibit 23 at this time. [01:50:31] Speaker 1: You need to. No objection, you know, maybe without a picture. [01:50:36] Speaker 2: Okay. Um, and I'm not going to put these up there, but if I just have a moment to, to, to show them to the jury. Can you come over here and, and, and, and, there if you see up here, points to it. Okay. Right. Well, you, we point for the, the jury, what you're talking about on, on this picture of him, as a, as a baby, where, where you were talking about the, man, the eczema showing up. Okay. Okay. And that's the dry skin. Dry skin. Okay. Right. And then the other version of that, that sometimes showed up, you point to it over there. [01:51:11] Speaker ?: Okay. [01:51:11] Speaker 2: Like the little red dots or whatever, up on sort of rosy cheeks with the red dots. Yes. Okay. Was that something, you can go back up there. Was that something that was ordinary? Yes. For him, um, did it ever develop into anything else? Did it ever develop beyond that in any way? No. When you left to go to Pizza Hut, I'm sorry, when you left to go to Walmart and Pizza Hut from the dorm, were there any marks on this child's face? [01:51:54] Speaker 3: No. [01:51:55] Speaker 2: Were there any bruises on his forehead? [01:51:57] Speaker 3: No. [01:51:58] Speaker 2: Were there any bruises on his cheeks? [01:52:00] Speaker 3: No, sir. [01:52:02] Speaker 2: Could he sit up? Yes. And have some motor skills? I mean. Yes. Was he able to, was he able to hold and use his cup in a normal fashion? [01:52:15] Speaker 3: Yes, he was drinking his cup and feeding himself. [01:52:38] Speaker 2: When you got to the hospital, how long was it, if you remember, before Ms. Pogue got there? [01:52:59] Speaker 3: Five, ten minutes. [01:52:59] Speaker 2: Did, when she got there, did you have any opportunity to talk to her when she initially got there, when she first got there, did you have any opportunity to talk to her before either of you talked to the police? No. Or to talk to the, you said security guard, who was an off-duty policeman, before you talked to him, did you have an opportunity to talk to her at the hospital? [01:53:35] Speaker 3: Uh, no. [01:53:39] Speaker 2: When was the, when was the, when was the first time that you heard this version that he, he fell off and fell out of a chair? [01:53:49] Speaker 3: Um, when she got there and told the officer that. [01:53:52] Speaker 2: And, and that was Allen? Correct. The same officer you were talking to? [01:53:56] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:53:56] Speaker ?: Thank you. [01:54:26] Speaker 2: Did you find yourself to be or consider yourself to be any more controlling or jealous in terms of this relationship with Trinity Pope than she was with you? [01:54:40] Speaker 3: No. [01:54:43] Speaker 2: Sort of wanting to stay in each other's social media and keep up with each other, was that kind of a two-way street? [01:54:50] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:54:56] Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. So the rung. What kind of rung is it? [01:55:19] Speaker 3: Bamboo. [01:55:19] Speaker 2: I'm going to show you what's been admitted in evidence. It's a defendant. It's already. You recognize that? Yes. Oh, it's my name right there. It's taken in the door. Right? In her room. It's a picture taken in her room. [01:55:46] Speaker 3: Yes. [01:55:48] Speaker 2: And it looks like it's about two-thirds gone. Have you drank all that rung from the time you left Albany until you went to bed that night? [01:56:02] Speaker 3: No. [01:56:05] Speaker 2: Do you recall when you might have bought it? [01:56:07] Speaker 3: I bought that Wednesday before the hotel. [01:56:10] Speaker 2: Okay, so you bought it when y'all were staying at the hotel or when you were going to stay at the hotel. [01:56:14] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:56:16] Speaker 2: When y'all were going to have like an anniversary, celebratory kind of night. [01:56:20] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:56:20] Speaker 2: Make up. Yes. Be on good terms kind of thing. [01:56:23] Speaker 3: Correct. [01:56:35] Speaker 1: All right. Any recourse, Mr. Gim?