Criminal Lawyer Reacts To The Karmelo Anthony Murder Trial

[00:00:00] Bruce Rivers: and and the big one here is proportionality and reasonableness those are the two words you know they didn't come at him with uh lethal force number one in a self-defense case the defense has the burden of showing some form of self-defense and it just has to be a showing it doesn't have to be that much it doesn't even have to be a preponderance of the evidence it just has to be [00:00:25] Speaker 2: some showing Bruce Rivers he's the criminal lawyer Bruce Rivers he's the criminal lawyer and who is he Bruce Rivers he's the criminal lawyer and what he do and he's gonna react to all the self-snitching [00:00:36] Bruce Rivers: hi this is Bruce Rivers welcome to another episode of criminal lawyer reacts I'm Bruce Rivers you are board certified criminal defense lawyer coming to you with my pearl handle pistol cufflinks which means we're ready for business right these were gifted to me my by my uh my son and your former content genius Michael Rivers God rest his soul um you know and I I mentioned him at every episode because without him I wouldn't have this channel and uh this is a good um therapy for me really uh because when I'd look behind the camera and he would uh I I played to one I played to an audience of one and Michael would laugh and if I knew if I made him laugh or if he nodded or something um you know that I was doing something good now I just got a big blob behind the uh it just big big gay guys standing behind there I'm joking um but anyway before we would today we're reacting to Carmela Anthony uh high school student in Texas who uh was uh now charged with murder uh and we'll talk a little bit about more what his charges are trials just about to start or is started has started and you know opening statements have happened but before we get to that guess what this is brought to you by askalawyer.com askalawyer.com marries real live lawyers and AI how do they do that they do that by having all the 50 state laws uh trained on AI so they've got that piece of it so if you're doing research you can go through that AI component but then you can also run what you're doing by an actual lawyer which is privileged information this is unlike anything else there's nowhere online that you can get this for 49 dollars it's a it's a steal and so if you if you're going through a lawsuit or if you're going or thinking about a lawsuit or if you've got anything you're facing somebody's suing you or or maybe your grandma's in your basement and you're just going to figure how to legally get out of your basement and get her on an only fans feed page and incorporate her so you can make some money off your grandma like me no i'm joking uh but what you do is you go to askalawyer.com and they've got everything you need they're not going to show up in court with you because it's not that kind of service but they can get you to where you need to go so askalawyer.com same people that brought you e-form and e-sign i'm telling you i've had so many people say hey i use the service and you know it's really gotten me uh the information that i needed and i was able to win my case or do this or that so askalawyer.com okay now this is really a case about self-defense i'm gonna put my wallet away anyway this is really a case about self-defense um let's recap with this case how it started so this was a case where um you're in the bleachers as a track meet and uh it starts to rain and and you know every team's got their tents right my daughter was in track you know and i remember you know everybody had their little tents and and everything's very provincial right you know i mean who gives a shit honestly maybe i i just don't know the right way to do things i i'm i'm all like can't we just get along let's all just hug it out i went up to uh this huge football player and it was so hilarious he was i think he was a minnesota viking and we were out to dinner and i i knew who he was i'm not going to mention his name but he's just giant right and my office partner who's a short little jewish guy passed away a couple years ago but we were at dinner and i looked at this guy and i said he wants to kick your ass and he looks at me he looks at joe and he says can't we just hug it out that's the way the world should be right anyway so um what happened was so we did a reaction to this so you might want to go back and look at a little more deep dive than we're going to do here because this is more of a discussion about self-defense so he was sitting under the tent of an opposing team and or a competing team and uh it started to rain and a couple of uh and he's black so uh camaro anthony is a black kid and a couple of the white kids mccaff and another kid uh told him you can't sit under our tent and then um depending upon what story you believe uh and there's surveillance of it which i think is good for everybody to be honest with you uh and the and and carmelo stabs him and he kills mccaff the whole case comes down to one word and one word alone reasonable what was reasonable under the circumstances so the opening statements began this week in the teens uh athletes fatal stabbing during during the track meet the murder trial of former texas high school carmelo anthony and and it's really you know there's all kinds of people at the courthouse that are protesting for the victims for the defendant and um he faces the charges for stabbing 17 year old austin mccaff during the track meet and and um and it's just a dispute over over a tent you know i mean the tragic event unfolded at a sporting event uh meant to celebrate youth athleticism and sportsmanship jesus christ i think it's pronounced metcalf yeah mccaff yeah mccaff it's mccaff i'm reading it right the here okay okay stick your finger back in your this was this was supposed to celebrate sportsmanship and athleticism instead it turns into a dispute between a black kid and a white kid which is just so sad to be honest with you so the courtroom battle centers on uh contrasting narratives uh from the prosecution and defense okay the prosecution uh asserts that anthony's stabbing of mccaff was a disproportionate remember that word disproportionate uh an unjustified use of deadly force framing it as a premeditated and criminal assault if it was premeditated he would be charged with murder one they maintain that even if provoked the violence was unacceptable and warranting a conviction on the this i guarantee you this was not a premeditated deal on the other hand the defense contends that anthony was frightened as a teenager who responded instinctively to self-defense after mccaff struck first they argue that the chaotic conditions during the track meet contributed to a heightened emotional state leading to a reactionary act rather than a planned attack so sometimes you know it's not what somebody did it's what does it mean legally and that's what we have in this case it seems the outcome will hinge on the subtle nuances such as timing of actions the severity of the threat perceived and adherence to legal standards under texas law now here's what carmel anthony's problem is he's black he's black and they're white and you're going to have mostly white jurors and you're going to have conservative white jurors that self-defense is okay if you're white not if you're black and i hate to even say that but that's what that's a big hurdle that he has and i've seen this in court before hopefully hopefully i'm wrong i really want to be wrong if i'm wrong i'm wrong i'll be the first one to admit it i'm not like some other lawyers who say i'm right no matter what i hate that but let's take a look at a couple news clips real quick hello everybody i'm heather hayes and i'm steve eager within the last hour a jury has been chosen to decide the closely watched murder trial of carmelo anthony more than let's talk about that for a second first of all selecting a jury a jury in a case like this this is a high profile case this is a case that everybody's heard about amy and i if i've heard about it everybody's heard about it right because i'm usually in a bubble uh but selecting a jury in this case has got a couple different components to it one what is your thought of self-defense do you believe in the stand your ground law because i believe texas is a stand your ground state do you uh have you heard anything about this case uh what are your thoughts about race do you believe that um the only good cracker is a dead cracker or do you believe the opposing view that the only good cracker is a is a rich cracker with some pepper jack cheese on it so that those are the issues you know and and have you ever had a chance to act in self-defense have you ever have you ever been treated mistreated by and you keep in mind and i come at it from a defense perspective okay i'm not a prosecutor i've never served as a prosecutor i never would serve as a prosecutor the thought of putting somebody in jail is repugnant to me okay i had somebody call me this is on chud the builder uh call me and call me just every name under the book because i did i said i didn't believe the death penalty which i don't and i don't because you know we're the only industrialized western nation that has the death penalty you realize that that's that's why some people some places won't extradite to the united states you know on death penalty cases unless they take the death penalty off the table you got to find a juror that can have an open mind and can render decisions based on the evidence and not based upon their prejudices and when i say prejudices i don't mean racial prejudice i mean uh prejudice against knives for example or or the use of deli force or somebody that's so knee-jerk on one issue or the other and race is one of them but but the idea i was using the word prejudice in terms of having an open mind [00:10:40] Speaker 3: we all have our biases more than 500 people were on the list of potential jurors but the jury will not include anyone who is black despite this case being racially charged first black juror i ever got was [00:10:55] Bruce Rivers: one of my first trials up in northern minnesota where it's all white how did i get a black juror and not a clue but that can have positive or negative implications it has a negative implication here because he is black and the black community is going to say he is not judged by a a jury of his peers you know and you're not entitled to people just like you you're entitled to jury of the community and they're chosen randomly and you can't get rid of a juror because they're black or because they're jewish or [00:11:28] Speaker 3: any of the protected reasons fox 4's alex boy joining us now alex [00:11:35] Speaker 4: hey guys good evening that's right you know and i can tell you that a court spokesperson confirmed that there are indeed no black jurors on this panel and i can tell you that before this jury panel was seated the defense objected to three black women [00:11:50] Bruce Rivers: being struck by the prosecution now so no jerk black jurors selected here's the thing it is not jury selection that's what it's called but it's not it's jury de-selection okay because you get a panel of jurors and you kick them off one by one so you don't want any fox news junkies on your jury typically um and when when if the prosecution uh kicks off or or you know excludes three black jurors they have to have a race neutral reason for doing so otherwise you know and it's called a uh a batson challenge when somebody has a uh a juror that they either exercise a preemptory or a four cause challenge on the uh and and you think hey wait a second that's the only black person you have no other reason other than they're black or they're mexican or you know hispanic or or they're you know asian or whatever and they embrace is the reason that you struck that juror they can't do that so what you do is you have a um a batson challenge and then the prosecutor gives a race [00:13:06] Speaker 4: neutral reason now the prosecution contended that it was due to the fact that the women were educators noting that this incident happened at a school function with young students the defense then pointed out that those were three 100 that three of those rather were 100 of the available black jurors in what's called the strike zone adding that the state struck all three the judge went out and reviewed their questionnaires and came back and said that the defense's challenge to the three jurors being dismissed was denied the judge said the court found that the state had non-racial means to strike the jurors now background carmelo anthony 17 at the time is accused of fatally stabbing 17 year old austin [00:13:50] Bruce Rivers: metcalf last year at a so what a dynamic all white jurors in texas in you know a community that's probably mostly white and you've got this football star you know and all that track star you know you you don't think that the you know prosecution's gonna paint this this real contrast between him and carmelo anthony [00:14:17] Speaker 4: and play on those fears frisco isd tracking anthony was reportedly sitting under a tent for a school that he did not attend witnesses say the two got into an argument and anthony stabbed metcalf in the chest metcalf died in his twin brother's arms police said that anthony told them he acted in self-defense now this case has become racially charged fueled in large part by online speculation rumors and misinformation on wednesday attorneys for both sides got an hour and 45 minutes to question the reduced poll of these potential doors they were questioned on their views on a variety of topics including race how they felt about serving on this case and if they would hold it against the defendant if he chose not to testify on his own behalf the defense also tried to gauge if the potential george would be uncomfortable giving anthony a lower sentence if there is a guilty verdict [00:15:10] Bruce Rivers: so you can't really do that you can't ask a uh a juror for kind of a promise that they'll give a lower sentence but you can ask them about how how do you feel about this how do you feel about that how do you feel about the death penalty those kinds of things i talked to a jury consultants about the [00:15:30] Speaker 5: process so far it's an excellent team on both sides um i believe bill warski has um you know he's a veteran prosecutor he's tried some very high profile cases um and then toby shook has been both the prosecutor and a criminal defense attorney and then mike howard is an excellent criminal defense attorney as well and they along with the da um it's it's going to be a very well tried case [00:15:59] Speaker 4: and i did speak with allison richardson before the jury was sad so i didn't have a chance to ask her about these late breaking developments now this high profile case continues to draw supporters and spectators to the collin county courthouse we saw another group of folks demonstrating at the entrance of the courthouse this afternoon we expect that to continue throughout the trial which the judge hopes to have wrapped up by the end of next week now i can tell you that 19 year old carmelo anthony was in court today for the proceedings he was wearing a suit with a tie and a purple shirt which is also the color many of his supporters have been wearing he did take some notes during the proceedings i can also tell you that there does appear to be some minorities on this jury panel again however none of them are african-american [00:16:43] Bruce Rivers: opening statements begin tomorrow at 9 a.m so you know this business about wearing solidarity colors um a judge would probably um frown upon that you certainly can't wear you know a shirt that says free uh carmelo or free carmelo anthony during testimony in the murder trial of carmelo anthony [00:17:07] Speaker 6: a 19 year old charged in the deadly stabbing of a fellow teen at a frisco track meet last year andrea lucia joins us now live outside the collin county courthouse andrea [00:17:19] Speaker 7: in opening statements today the prosecution said this case has nothing to do with race but out here [00:17:25] Bruce Rivers: bullsh*t this has everything to do with race i mean may not have between the parties but it is now [00:17:33] Speaker 7: in the last year it's been impossible to ignore the racial tensions it's ignited among protesters who gathered here at the courthouse throughout the day prosecutor bill werski did try to keep the focus on what he has described as the unprovoked unjustified murder of 17 year old austin metcalf he began his case playing video from the day metcalf died breaking it down a few seconds at a time it shows people gathered under a tent as rain was coming down during the frisco isd track meet you can see them start pushing each other and then scattering quickly defense attorney toby shook argued the video doesn't show what [00:18:08] Bruce Rivers: happened or who started the argument so here's the thing this video is is the piece of evidence in this case critical and it probably will help the defense because you can't avail yourself of self-defense if you're if you're the provocateur so if you're the one starting the fight you can't avail yourself of self-defense so to the extent that the video would show the other guys putting their hands on carmelo [00:18:35] Speaker 7: first is critical to any kind of self-defense theory that day the prosecution though has promised the jury they will hear from eyewitnesses and it's denied any claim that this was an act of self-defense in its opening statement the defense meanwhile introduced us to carmelo anthony describing him as an a student who was holding down two jobs while also serving as captain of the high school football team it claims that he went into that tent to get out of the rain and that it was the victim medca who [00:19:06] Bruce Rivers: started the argument so when you look at this case you know it's really a simple case but it's not you know because it's going to come down to a judgment call did the actions of mr anthony meet a reasonable test and so here's what happens with uh self-defense first of all let's just talk about whether he's going to testify or not so so when you look at this case you've got a confrontation between two people little tiny things will make a difference for example if um in minnesota you have to have a duty to retreat you know but you don't have that in texas but if uh if he says you know if he instigates to say okay make me or something like if you got to leave make me leave and they put his hands on him is that him instigating the fight you know what do we look at number one in a self-defense case the defense has the burden of showing some form of self-defense and it just has to be a showing doesn't have to be that much doesn't even have to be a preponderance of the evidence it just has to be some showing then the burden shifts to the state to the prosecution and the burden then shifts so that they have to prove that he did not act in self-defense so they and they have to disprove one of a few different elements when you look at this um you know and supposedly that after the fact you know they were trying to figure out who did this and he admitted that he did it well that's that's what you're going to do in a self-defense case you can't have a self-defense case and say i didn't do it um but here here are the basic elements and it changes a little bit with each jurisdiction but you can't be the aggressor the threat of danger or unlawful physical force must be immediate and here's the big one and the prosecutor should mention this in their opening proportionality the defense force that you use must match or be proportionate to the level of the threat now here's there if they're up in the balcony or not balcony and uh bleachers and you know you've ever been you ever felt uneasy in bleachers i i know i have you know you walk down and if somebody pushes you um you can get you can get hurt pretty easily um avoidance duty to retreat which we don't have here in this case um so that's eliminated and reasonableness your belief that you were in danger and the amount of force used was necessary to be viewed as a reasonable and ordinary prudent person would in the same situation so that's those are the elements and and the prosecution has to disprove at least one of those beyond a reasonable doubt let me rephrase that it's sort of presumed when when you get the instruction it's presumed that the defense of self-defense is proven okay so it's up to the prosecution to so if they disprove one element and if they disprove only one any one of those things that i just read you um then you're gonna have a situation where the self-defense is not there and it's a not guilty or no it's a guilty right so and and the big one here is proportionality and reasonableness those are the two words you know they didn't come at him with uh lethal force no did he view it as as you know something more than just a shove because he's in the bleachers and because things that they were saying back and forth you know we're gonna kick your ass we're gonna pound your dick in the dirt you know whatever they say i don't know who talks like that but i've heard it someplace i think robert's talking like that anyway so that's what that's what this case is going to hinge on now does he have to testify i don't know but usually you kind of have to testify in self-defense cases you have to communicate to the jury what your fear was what your threat level was you know and you have to you know you don't have to fear that you were going to die that's that's a misnomer you just have to fear great bodily harm or death you know i didn't know i i i they grabbed me all i wanted to do is get out of the rain he seems you know this carmelo anson he seems a little sympathetic you know after the fact he asked is he going to be okay it wasn't this premeditated is just going to go out the window i can't imagine that you know what was he premeditated and mind you premeditation can happen in an instant but but for them putting their hands on him uh would he have stabbed anybody you know it doesn't he doesn't strike to me as the the kind of person that is psycho or you know mass killing that just that's not him at least i don't see it anyway what would i do as a lawyer i don't want to humanize him as much as possible and he's not a big guy you know he's skinny little guy and i would play that difference between these two brothers who are big strong football players with carmelo anthony who is just a you know a skinny little uh fast track guy and then i would also play up his life you know what was he like you know did he have a job did he uh was he a good student did he you know i'd play up all those things and then you make it unlikely that he would had anything premeditated but likely that he feared for his life that's how that's how you defend this case tragic that he lost his life it was so unnecessary to put your hands on carmelo anthony it just was and even more unnecessary that that he was stabbed you know um anytime i see the loss of young life it's just so sad go back and watch my initial reaction to this because i think you'll find that i praise the father in in this case because the father expressed remorse or not remorse but uh grace and and reserve and he didn't he didn't jump on all this mother you know he was he was kind and he was sad i mean his son is dead you know and nothing worse than losing your child um i can speak on authority on that motherfucker you know we'll we'll continue to watch this but look for those two words proportionate and reasonable under the circumstances so here's here's my analysis of this i don't know what's going to happen he's got a shot at self-defense i don't think they're going to get a premeditated murder out of this i just don't and the judge shouldn't let it go to the jury as premeditated murder in my opinion they and they should have negotiated something like manslaughter or something like that ahead of time they should this case should have been resolved that way but i've had cases where my client killed somebody and there was no question that my client killed somebody but we argued self-defense and it was all on video and and my client walked home there's no question as to what happened just what does it mean legally so we'll we'll continue to follow it just kind of updating you on what the what the trial is like there's no cameras in this courtroom so um you're just gonna have to take it from little me make sure you subscribe follow us on instagram follow us on twitter sign up for patreon um go to facebook do everything you gotta do to pump us up so we're absolutely huge make sure you go get some merch so you know what to do hey the cops are here what should we do i don't know how about we stop ourselves stitching we'll see you next time here [00:27:08] Speaker 8: here on criminal lawyer reacts you ain't coming home till 2058 that's self-snitching gonna get you put away