Can the Gulf Stream Power Florida? The Future of Marine Renewable Energy — The Blue Economy

[00:00:00] Catherine O'Fallon: Hello, I'm Catherine O'Fallon, the Executive Director of the Marine Research Hub, leading efforts to advance ocean solutions and innovation in Florida and beyond. By 2030, the global ocean economy is projected to reach $3 trillion and 40 million jobs. And Florida, surrounded by water, is uniquely positioned to lead the way with marine solutions with a global impact. At the Marine Research Hub, we connect stakeholders, elevate oceanographic research, and commercialize marketable solutions that drive investment opportunities, create sustainable jobs, and ultimately protect our marine and coastal environments. Founded in 2017, the Marine Research Hub bridges the gap between scientific discovery and real-world application. Through collaboration between researchers, entrepreneurs, policy makers, and industry leaders, we accelerate commercialization, investment, and ecosystem building, creating lasting impact for our oceans and coastal communities. We are just beginning to make waves, and the potential is limitless. Join us as we fuel the Blue Economy through innovation, sustainability, and strategic investment from Florida to the entire world. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Blue Economy podcast. I'm your host, Catherine O'Fallon, the Executive Director of the Marine Research Hub. We're really happy to have you here with us for another exciting episode. And you're probably wondering where we're sitting right now. And we are sitting in Dania Beach, Florida, at the Florida Atlantic University's Sea Tech campus. We're in the hydrology lab, right? Yeah. And I'm sitting here with Dr. James Van Sweeten, who is the director for the Southeast National Marine Renewable Energy Center. It's a long name, so we're just going to call it Center from now on. But this is really exciting. I love being able, we're sitting here in the hydrology lab. We've got an apparatus behind us, which you'll tell, maybe give a little indication of more of what's about. But we're really going to get into marine renewable energy today. So thank you, Jim, for sitting down with me. I'm really excited to have this conversation because I think there's a lot of unknowns. And a lot of people are really curious about what is marine renewable energy? What is the center? So what are some of the projects you're working on? So we're going to get into all of that today. And so thanks for your time. [00:02:30] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Thank you for allowing me to do this. I'm excited. This is a topic that I think is very exciting to me. I've been working on it for a while, and I think it's got a really good future here. And so we're excited about what's in front of us, excited to tell you about these technologies, and I'm looking [00:02:48] Catherine O'Fallon: forward to getting started. Excellent. Okay, so let's start off with people who are, you know, watching from all over the world and kind of not sure people talk about renewable energies, they talk about marine, but now we're kind of putting them together. So let's set the stage first. What is marine renewable energy? And I think there's some different types of marine renewable energy. So let's start [00:03:10] Dr. James Van Sweeten: there. Absolutely. I'll go over them real quick. So there are several types. So it's just anytime you can get energy out of the ocean, use it to create electrical power, that's typically referred to as marine renewable energy. And so there's several forms of that. One, there's a lot of power, energy and waves. You go out in the ocean, you can feel those waves. You can, we're looking at how to harness that. Yep. There's currents, especially tidal currents or river currents. And so if you go down to like the Keys, you look under some of those bridges, those that they actually have a very good energy resource there. You see it flowing, you try to power into that in a boat, you can feel the power there. So that's tidal energy. River is kind of not marine, but they always lump it in there. So there's, you can get the same device, put it in the river, extract electrical power from that river without putting a dam in. So it's, um, there's some places where that's a very good solution. So you can just put a few devices in there and provide some power. So that would be the river energy, but different from traditional hydro power, obviously. And then there are a couple others. The one big one that we have off here in Florida is ocean current energy. This is similar to the tidal energy or river energy, except for it's these really large ocean currents. As the earth rotates and you have the trade winds, they create these circulations, which are always the strongest on the western edge of the ocean. So your eastern edge of the continent. So if you look at the ocean currents right along the eastern edge of most of the continents, you get these really strong ocean currents. They're typically in about a thousand feet of water, but most of the energy is actually in the top about two or 300 feet. Oh, so the Gulf stream current, which we have has about 30 million cubic meters of water per second flowing through the Florida straits per second per second. That's crazy. So they call it 30 sphere drops, which, you know, that's just an oceanography term, but it's a massive amount of water. It's moving very quickly. And so that would be ocean current energy would be trying to extract the energy from those deep ocean currents. So it's kind of like tidal energy, except for you're dealing with deeper water and open oceans. Got it. Another one that's real exciting is ocean thermal energy. And so this uses a temperature difference between the warm surface water and the cold deep water that can be used to produce electrical [00:05:42] Catherine O'Fallon: power. Wow. So I always think about that when I'm like diving and you'd see the thermal climb and you don't ever think about the fact that you could actually harness that, that differentiation for [00:05:54] Dr. James Van Sweeten: energy. Yeah. You don't, you don't think of that normally in the marine world. When you're looking at the energy world, it's pretty interesting because maybe 80, 90% of the electrical power is produced using a temperature difference. So if you look at a traditional power plant, you'll use your nuclear power, you'll use coal, you'll use natural gas. All that's doing is heating up one area. So you're producing heat one area, and then you're going to use a lake, a river or the atmosphere to cool as a cooling. So you're burning fuel to get hot and cold with like say geothermal or ocean thermal energy, you naturally have a warm and cool. While it's not as big as a powerhouse, you know, it naturally occurs. So you can use those naturally occurring temperature differences and kind of a similar process to a [00:06:45] Catherine O'Fallon: traditional power plant. Huh. And I mean, I guess, why is that like the, you know, that's newer? No [00:06:53] Dr. James Van Sweeten: one's really talked about that very much. It hasn't been talked about a lot. Um, but why is that? Do you think? Well, for the economy and for the economics to work out, you kind of need to build a larger plant. Okay. So there, yes. So there's been about a hundred years ago, they built the first plant in Cuba and a hurricane destroyed it right after it was built. But the technology and the ideas have been around. When they look at the economics, you kind of have to get a larger, maybe five, 10, 20, hundred megawatt, these larger power plants. And so when you're dealing with wave energy, you can build something that's relatively small and experiment for this, you kind of have to build a larger system. And so you don't really see as much experimentation, but there is a plant operating in Hawaii that's relatively small, not a lot of power, but a demonstration plan. And there's a couple in the Pacific that are working again, more demo, uh, demonstrations. So now with that pipeline technology, a lot of ocean technologies have really advanced over the last 20 or 30 years. So now once they can use off the shelf components to build about a 20 megawatt plant. And so we're getting very close to economic [00:08:17] Catherine O'Fallon: viability with that. Oh, that's really cool. Well, someone's got to start it small in order for it to get to scale. I mean, that's, that's how everything kind of works. So, so let's, so now we've kind of broken down the different energy. We got wave, we've got title, we've got, uh, the Gulf stream or the, you know, the current stream, which for us is the Gulf stream because we're right here. And then we've got the ocean thermal and then rivers are also in that, that space too. And it's blue economy. So everything gets, is in that space water, but now all the different types. Now, what does, where does the center sit in all of this? How is the center an important piece to all of this puzzle? [00:08:58] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Okay. So we are worried fit in this as we are really working to try to enable companies to, uh, develop these technologies. When you look at our main focuses, those are going to be the ocean current because we actually have the most energy dense ocean current in the world as kind of the Palm Beach area. And it's also pretty relatively close to shore. They're not, not real close. What's relatively close to shore. That's like 15 miles offshore. Okay. And it's trapped between Florida and the Bahamas. So a lot of places maybe would have a stronger current at some time, but then it can go offshore farther and come back on shore. So you would have times when there's no current for a month, like off South Africa, they have a very strong current, but it goes seasonal. They're kind of a seasonal type of thing. Really large eddies. So it will go offshore for like a month. Okay. And for us, it's trapped between the Bahamas and Florida. So it's very, very consistent constant. Yeah. And that's important. And so we are looking at ocean current energy because we're right at the best spot in the world for this. We're trying to develop these local technologies that could really impact Florida and the Southeast and ocean current. And predictions are about 20% of Florida's power could be extracted from the ocean before it really has, um, any sort of noticeable effects on the Gulf Stream current itself. Wow. So we're actually redoing a study with all the new computers, because that was about 20 years ago. And then another, about two years, we should have a more, a clearer definition of that number, but it should fall somewhere on, uh, I think around five gigawatts, five to 10 gigawatts. [00:10:41] Catherine O'Fallon: Okay. So ocean energy current, we're right here strategically, um, 15 miles. Isn't that much [00:10:49] Dr. James Van Sweeten: compared to, you said a lot are further off. Yeah. A lot of farther and a lot are, and we're in about a thousand feet of water. Some of those currents are in a lot deeper water and we're very consistent. And then we're also looking at ocean thermal energy as our second primary focus area. Okay. [00:11:05] Catherine O'Fallon: Okay. And so with the center here, this is a unique, unique space. There's only, this is, um, with the Department of Energy, this is, there's only four centers of similar scale, like this across the U.S., [00:11:19] Dr. James Van Sweeten: correct? Yeah. There are four U.S. Department of Energy designated national marine energy centers. So there's us, there's one up farther north in the Atlantic that's looking at kind of smaller scale systems. Uh, then there's Hawaii and then there's one in the Pacific. All right. So this is a unique space, uh, [00:11:39] Catherine O'Fallon: for, for the university to have a center. Um, why is it important for the center to be here? I mean, we've talked about the location being in Southeast Florida with the Gulf Stream current. That's an important piece. But what about just being connected with the Florida Atlantic University? How did it, [00:11:55] Dr. James Van Sweeten: what's the, how did it start? Well, it started from our ocean mechanical engineering department. There are a couple of professors here who are still actively involved with the space. Uh, uh, Dr. Driscoll, who's at now at the National Lab of the Rockies, formerly National Renewable Energy Lab and Dr. Mann Hardanick. They helped establish this. And at that point, Gabe and I, who are very active in the leadership role right now, we were both students here. So we got, um, invited to kind of join as students, saw their leadership, learned a lot from them and have been working in the space ever since. One of the main reasons that FAU is great is we have a lot of programs that are very good match. Ocean engineering is critical for this. There are not too many ocean marine engineering programs in the nation. So we do a lot of naturally do a lot of relevant research for this. Uh, we have some from electrical computer science who are looking at how AI can be used to assist with this. Also, how you can, uh, connect this electricity to the grid, because if you produce it, but it's not effectively being fed into [00:13:03] Catherine O'Fallon: the grid, you know, it's not a lot, not that useful. Yeah. It's just there. But yeah, because getting the, I think that's to me in my, my brain, it's like, okay, you're 15 miles off into the Gulf of Mexico, trying to harness the power of the Gulf stream, but you have to now get it that 15 miles back to shore and get it into the grid. So that's all pieces of the puzzle that have to be developed. Yeah. Yeah. [00:13:30] Dr. James Van Sweeten: There are a lot of those challenges and a lot of marine and energy challenges. So that would be offshore cables mooring, uh, the ability to do everything you need to do on different work boats. So there's a lot of needs, especially as we transition more from kind of the fundamental research stage, trying to get more applied, getting more systems in the water. That's when we, um, you know, start chartering more boats and, you know, or working with those, um, let's say towboat us, for example, not sure if we're supposed to name names here. [00:14:05] Catherine O'Fallon: No, it's okay. They're all part of this ecosystem. Yeah. [00:14:08] Dr. James Van Sweeten: But we've been out on their boats, uh, several times in the past to go to, to deploy equipment, to do tasks. And so when we've worked with them over the years, you know, they're very good at what they do and they got very good at doing what we needed to them, needed them to do. So it's been, um, those partnerships are, you know, what get you from doing a fascinating stuff in the lab to actually [00:14:35] Catherine O'Fallon: offshore. Yeah. And I think, I'm glad you actually brought that up because we careers and the connectivity of the space. Cause you can't, you're doing the research side, but you can't necessarily do all the work without the rest of the Marine industry, without towboat USA, without their pilots, their captains, their people are building and engineering. And what does the space look like in terms of career opportunities? Not only from an academic and research component, but just kind of like the broader [00:15:05] Dr. James Van Sweeten: area. Well, it's one of those areas that we're really hoping is going to grow. Like right now, we're working with, uh, suppliers for the different equipment, you know, the, the towboat or others. Yeah. Sorry. When I was out, I was towboat. I think we've worked with some others as well. [00:15:20] Catherine O'Fallon: There's probably a ton out there that you've worked with. So we won't, we won't, uh, we'll, we'll give credit later when, when start projects start happening. Right. Yeah. But as we really, the goal [00:15:30] Dr. James Van Sweeten: is to start transitioning and start doing more stuff offshore because that's where the energy is. Yep. And so there's a whole ecosystem that you need to make that happen because we're not going to be the... You can't do it all. Our focus is going to be very specific to that marine energy and that, but we're going to need a lot of help with getting those in the water. And then we're also not developing the technologies. So while we were doing a lot of research, most of our research is done that will benefit everyone. So the department of energy will pay us to make a bunch of measurements, assess the variability of the current, the turbulence of the current, all these characteristics that you need to develop a turbine, uh, control systems, numerical simulation tools, all this sort of stuff. But then the actual companies are going to develop the devices. We'll probably hopefully have a permitted test site at some point so that they don't need to navigate all the permitting. We can have that ready for them and they can focus on developing their technologies. We can focus on the testing and the research and then the actual deployment, all that, you know, you'll need the local industry to help [00:16:38] Catherine O'Fallon: with that. Perfect. I think you said that really well in terms of all the players in this space. Um, and the role of the center is really the, uh, data, the research, the validation, but now you're going to need the industry to also. So how does that play in the, I know the center is funded by the department of energy. Yeah. That's funding for that. But where does industry play a part in working with you guys? [00:17:04] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Well, if you're talking about the industry as terms of device developers, then there's also the department of energy as funding opportunities for them. So the department of energy would say, here's some funding for the renewable energy centers to conduct a lot of the fundamental research that will benefit everyone. Yep. Then for getting the steel in the water for developing the prototypes, they'll actually fund the device developers. And there's a lot of other opportunities where like a device developer can say, we need this one research project and the department of energy will fund us to say, do a system optimization for them. Got it. Or to run offshore testing for them. So there's, it's very coupled between the renewable energy center, those developing the technology, the part department of energy. And then when you actually move offshore, then you need the whole local marine sector that is very familiar with working here. And so, you know, you have to have that connection [00:18:05] Catherine O'Fallon: too. Otherwise you can't really scale up. Yeah. That's, that's the problem is what you, what you do in the lab still needs to be deployed out. That's that 50 miles offshore. Yeah. And not, and everyone has their areas of expertise. Yes. And the marine sector has the one and you guys bring, you know, the data, the science, the validation, and then you have the people who are the industry, who's building those prototypes to, to scale those up. So how, so how does it work when you have like some of the projects you're working on right now? Can you talk about any of the fun projects you're working on and maybe even talk, we can touch a little bit on the challenges. You kind of touched on permitting and stuff, but I'd love to get into like, what, what are you working on now? What's really exciting you right now? And what are some of those challenges in that project? So yeah, so we have, [00:18:55] Dr. James Van Sweeten: um, a handful of projects that we're working on maybe more than that, but a couple that are kind of interesting. I think, um, for ocean thermal energy, we're looking at the space and we're trying to figure out how best do we contribute? How best do we say, Hey, let's get this money. Let's help things move forward. So there are technology developers that are developing their ideas for these systems, typically in the 10 to 20 megawatt range. There's companies that are looking at, Hey, can we actually connect these with floating data centers? Can we, how can we best make use of this technology? And so what we thought, well, let's do an unbiased estimate as to what the techno economics look for that. So we get a representative system, look at all your costs, but to get the cost models, economic models, optimization, look at the different areas to deploy these, which is normally Florida, Gulf of America, Puerto Rico, and then the Pacific islands like Guam, those have some excellent ocean thermal energy resources. So we're kind of looking at the cost of electricity at all those locations, getting cost estimates, seeing where it might be economically viable, but then it would be the actual industry or the, these developing the technologies that would actually go try to put it in, but then they would require a whole lot of the local help in terms of all the offshore equipment, all that they would have to charter locally and work with the local communities. [00:20:22] Catherine O'Fallon: So when we talk ocean, ocean thermal energy, which I think is so cool to think about where, is there like an optimal like depths that it's good at where you get the most out of it or where, [00:20:33] Dr. James Van Sweeten: what does that look like? That's very good question. So most of the time they think that you need about a temperature difference of about 20 degrees Celsius. Okay. And so you can find that anywhere between about 20 and 30 degrees north and south, depending on what side of the ocean you are, but roughly between 20 degree, uh, 30 degrees north and south is kind of where you have warm enough temperatures at the top. And then you typically have to go down about 800 to 1200 meters. Um, so, you know, about 3000 feet to get the cold water. Holy cow. And so it's these really long pipelines and through the years when, when, with a lot of the tests, almost always it was these pipeline failures. They'd build it, try to test it. They would, it's one way or another end up as an artificial reef. Um, but now there's been a lot of progress with that. So hopefully as they move forward, the last, you know, it's been more successful at smaller scales and now it's already, I think for a large scale. Oh, awesome. [00:21:37] Catherine O'Fallon: Well, that is much deeper than I thought. I don't know what I was thinking, honestly, but when you say, you know, 3000 feet, it's like, wow, it's, uh, so when you think about 3000 feet off the coast of, of Florida here, like, you know, how far off is that approximately? I'm not going to hold you to it [00:21:57] Dr. James Van Sweeten: and check. We get, um, it would, you wouldn't, it gets a little bit shallower because the Florida Straits aren't quite that shallow, but the golf room does kind of push the cold water up a little bit shallower. So we could probably get it closer to a little less than 2000 feet. It's not as good as say, right on the equator, but we have a pretty good resource there between Key West and Cuba gets a little deeper and there's, um, some good resource there. And then out through the Gulf of America has some pretty good spots as well. Okay. So those, those are pretty good. And there are probably some applications that could benefit from them. Okay. Uh, but like Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, some of the areas like Guam in the Pacific, they're up above like 20, 22, 23, and they're very stable since they're close to the equator. So they would, they would have some advantages. Okay. So it kind of depends on the need, but we're definitely feasible in Gulf of America and Florida. Puerto Rico is definitely better in terms of continuous year round power that doesn't vary much by season where we have some, you know, maybe producing 60, 70% of the power during the winter as we would during the summer. So it's continuous, but not quite as good as, you know, when you, so it's a part of what you guys are [00:23:22] Catherine O'Fallon: doing is trying to figure out the best spots, the optimal spots for the economics to work at scale as [00:23:30] Dr. James Van Sweeten: well as the science. Yeah. So we've, there's some oceanographic data and we've processed it. So we've mapped the temperature globally and then we've looked at plant models. So how much would this design create anywhere in the globe? Gotcha. We actually did that for Lockheed Martin back 20 years ago when they were looking at it, but we've redone that and the models have changed a little bit and now we're looking at different designs so we can get that. And we can say, this is how much we'll produce throughout the year at any location. And then once you've kind of find the top locations, you can try to optimize the system because the optimal system for Gulf of America would be different than Puerto Rico and Guam. And then, so you try to optimize based on the economics to drive down your cost of electricity. [00:24:16] Catherine O'Fallon: So we're in the middle of a project doing that right now. Oh, very cool. So that with that project, what is, what do you say right now is one of the biggest challenges that you're encountering? [00:24:28] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Biggest challenges? I think, well, that one's very tedious because every little bend and every pipe we're modeling and the economics, trying to get quotes for all the equipment that you would put on there, the heat exchangers, the pumps, everything like that, you know, tracking those down, keeping those up to date, that takes some time. So it's a very kind of tedious project, but we're excited about it because it seems like there's a lot of momentum in that area right now with the dating data centers, floating data centers are the possibility. There's just such a need for power. Yeah. That there's really an excitement over the last two years. I would say that I hadn't really seen before that. So it's, there's really a push for this stuff. And I [00:25:16] Catherine O'Fallon: think some of it could, with the right support could happen pretty quickly. So what, what type of support is [00:25:23] Dr. James Van Sweeten: the right support? I would say a lot of the fundamental studies, like the Department of Energy, they'll fund the fundamental studies. Yep. And so whether it's an investor group or someone else like that could come in and say, Hey, we're going to get the investment to actually put these real large scale systems. Gotcha. So it's a little bit different for OTEC than some of the other ones, because I think the technology is pretty much mature enough. Yep. It's just, do we want to do a large scale investment where maybe the first one isn't cost effective, but can we get there with the fifth one or the 10th one, or what does that look like? So it's, um, you know, you really want to make sure the numbers are correct because you don't want to start something that isn't going to work out. So just trying to figure out the details and the economics and maybe driving down the costs on some of the items that are needed, uh, to make the economics work out. So it's really at this point, you're, [00:26:22] Catherine O'Fallon: you know, you're getting it as cost efficient as you can potentially. And then it's, it's the investor or the industry that's going to come along and help put the, put the money behind it to, to scale it. [00:26:33] Dr. James Van Sweeten: That's what we need next. Yeah. So we're, we're doing some of the basic research. Hawaii is also involved in OTEC. Then there are several different companies who are working on their actual system, exactly their detailed analysis for their system, how it would work. So those companies are developing their independent technologies. But then I think for the large scale installation, those companies are the most, the ones I'm aware of, aren't going to say, Hey, as a company, we have this many million dollars to put a 20 megawatt plant in. So that's where I would come with the investors and, you know, then everything would be built in shipyards or as locally as possible shipped out there. So there's, um, [00:27:19] Catherine O'Fallon: it's very intricate to get that to work. So that's probably the challenge, but also it sounds like the fun part about it too. You, you sound like you're, you like to make all those things come together. [00:27:29] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Yeah. Well, we're trying to contribute as much as possible to some of those areas that we say, okay, if we do the study, that'll benefit everyone. And then hopefully we'll be a part of any project that goes forward, seeing how we can help get it in the water, because it's kind of an interesting space that most of those companies, most of the people working in this area really just wants the success of the industry as a whole. So not everyone, but there's a lot of sharing of ideas and a lot more [00:28:02] Catherine O'Fallon: than you might think in some other areas. Well, then you lead right in to my next question is about collaboration. Um, where, you know, the center very clear now what you guys piece to do it and the collaboration you're talking about is like, this is a small sector. Like this is a small group of people. Like you probably know just about everybody who's in this space right now and what's going on. So how do we, how do we get that out to the masses for them to know about this? So that investment to come with that? Um, and what is that, what is the importance of collaboration and, you know, kind of building this blue economy hub here in South Florida? Can you touch on your thoughts on that? [00:28:42] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Yeah, I think that, I mean, that's a special, that's important for all the technologies, especially I think the ocean current as we try to start moving this testing offshore, building the infrastructure, get a cable out there at some point, a way to bring the power back, really get systems in the water and improve that technology because right now we need to get, uh, move towards long duration testing. We've done, we've worked with several companies to test their, um, devices for say half a day, the basic functionality. Got it. But for that industry itself with the ocean current, we need to get them in there, let them operate for months, show that they can last for years and then you do the next push. So we just need to work with people to get the testing capabilities, to get the systems tested, to understand the environment, to work through the permitting process. So we've, we're kind of in the middle of a lot of that right now, but hopefully we'll get them in the water, kind of, kind of get some, kind of prove it out. Like get some traction behind a [00:29:51] Catherine O'Fallon: little, a little bit of data science and then prove it so that we can share it with the masses. [00:29:57] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Absolutely. Because like, if you look at river energy, tidal energy or wave energy, there's been 20 years of kind of full scale prototype testing. Okay. And now they're starting to move into arrays where they would say, oh, let's put in six, let's connect to the grid. So they're kind of making that transition from just testing, improving the technology to let's find places where we can actually start contributing. There's like a small community in Alaska. They got a couple turbines in the river that's providing the power. There's places in Europe where I think they have about six or eight devices. They put about six of them in the East river. And so they've kind of got that longer turbine and they're starting to make that transition into the commercial space where they're more looking at how do I create electricity and how do I sell it? Yep. And so we're kind of a step behind that. We need to kind of prove out that it can last and operate in there for multiple years and then we'll make that next step. So I think we can look to the wave energy, the tidal and the river who are one step up, one kind of big step ahead of us and you know, move in that direction because we have a huge resource out there. Yeah. Um, and so it's exciting to try to say, wow, look how, look at this massive Gulf stream current compared to rivers. It's so much larger than most of those resources, but there are those additional challenges. Let's try to catch up or hopefully, hopefully they keep moving as well, but we make the next step into having proven technologies that can work out there for five, 10 years. And then we can make that next step into selling electrons and powering the grid. [00:31:41] Catherine O'Fallon: Excellent. Yeah. I mean, obviously, like you said at the beginning, you were talking, you know, wave tidal. It's closer to shorts. It, uh, hopefully it should be further along. I think that that's my, my best guess is like, it's closer. It's a little bit more tangible. I think that's one of the areas that it's hard for people to kind of wrap their head around something that's out 15 miles offshore that they don't, you know, unless you're a boater and you're off there fishing and stuff, you don't really think about what's out in the ocean, um, and the, the energy potential that's out there. And, um, you guys are taking that, you know, step, but when you think about wave and tidal, you said it's, you know, 20 years that a lot of this is, so it's, it's definitely a long runway for some of this. So the fact that we've made such huge strides in the last, like you said, focus, um, the last couple of years, you know, five to 10 years, where do you see AI? How do you use AI to the benefit of what you're working on right now? And that technology jump that's kind of taking place right now? [00:32:43] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Well, we're using it in a couple of areas right now. So one with the ocean currents, it's nice to know what's coming down. So if we get devices out there, we should be able to get 24/7 power production. That's what all the measurements have told us. But now we're moving towards measurement, kind of looking at the statistics to being able to predict what's coming in the future. So I think some of them, a lot of the machine learning algorithms, we're using those to, uh, do ocean current prediction. So hopefully we can say in three days, if we have these two devices on the water, here's what the power production should look like. And that would be big for connecting to the grid, because that's very hard to do with say solar. Well, I guess you always know what's going to not produce at night, but you get the 24/7. And then those fluctuations, if you can predict those real well, we're using AI machine learning for that. We're also using them. We have done some research where we're looking at being able to predict failure because it's hard to get out there and maintain those devices, even tidal turbines underwater, very hard. So we've done some machine learning, looking at fault detection. So when you have some little vibrations that are happening and you can say, oh, we're getting a bearing failure. You want to do, uh, predict the life, say, okay, we've got about two more years of operation. So we're something remote that can be very important. [00:34:07] Catherine O'Fallon: Very. That's cool. I didn't. Yeah. Thinking about like planning for repairs and stuff. If you know, it's going to happen, you can plan it and so that you don't lose as much downtime. [00:34:17] Dr. James Van Sweeten: Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to leave it out there for as long as you can, but then pick it up before something actually fails. So we've been working on that for a while and AI has been involved with that. And so optimization AI is very good at that, you know, use it every day for literature reviews, stuff like that, but we're really integrating it in there. You know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a piece of everything, but some of those predictions, you know, it's kind of the core of those. [00:34:47] Catherine O'Fallon: Okay. Very cool. So, um, you know, Marine Research Hub, you know, kind of sits at this convening, connecting academic, business, government, nonprofits. Florida Atlantic University is obviously a partner in our university ecosystem. How do you see, you know, being a part, the university, the center, being a part of, of the hub, how do you see that being a benefit as we building out this ecosystem here in South Florida? Well, I think anything Marine, I mean, [00:35:17] Dr. James Van Sweeten: there's a lot of expertise that goes into that. You're not going to do that alone. You're not going to, you're wanting to rely on the people who are out in the water all the time for anything offshore. So that's key developing anything that actually goes in the ocean has to be developed for the ocean. Yeah. If you get something that from somebody who's not familiar with it, it's, you know, probably not going to last for a while. I'm not saying you'll never get the ocean is harsh. I mean, [00:35:48] Catherine O'Fallon: there's a harsh conditions, you know, you have to, I think the, like you said, yeah, the experts, the Marine industry is, is one of the experts in the space. Yeah. You need, you need them. And [00:35:58] Dr. James Van Sweeten: especially the ones that are familiar with your local Marine area. So, I mean, if you get somebody who's familiar with a different ocean, there's going to be different challenges and there's a lot of local knowledge, I think required. And then all the sensor development, there's a lot of sensors. Anytime you can drive down the costs of the components, you're going to get something that's much more feasible because with, I would say, tidal, wave, uh, river and OTEC are kind of mainly kind of at the economic stage where if you can drive down the cost of all these Marine components, all of a sudden you're competitive. Yeah. Um, ocean current, we have one more step of progressing the technology, but then we're going to be in the same place where like it works. Now we've got to get it out there. We do get something that can live out there for 20 years and we need to get something that we can produce at a cost. So somebody is going to want to say, oh, the economics work out. I want to buy 20 of them or I want to buy 50 of them or whatever they're going to put out there. You know, you're just because something works, you know, the developer can handle a lot of that, but driving down the cost to something that can, um, actually make economic sense is the only way you're actually going to contribute to the grid at the only way you're going to say, okay, I'm going to do something meaningful. This is actually going to offset or provide a lot of the power for the state. That doesn't happen [00:37:28] Catherine O'Fallon: if you're producing really expensive power. Got it. Yeah. So I can, I mean, I think a lot of times when people think about this space, they think about the science and the data and the technology, but the economics is, is such an important piece of it because if it's not scalable and if it's not economically feasible, it doesn't make sense. It's, it's just a great idea that's sitting out there. So you've got, uh, the, the economics behind it. Um, so before we're getting close to the end here, but I did have one other question on, we had mentioned a little bit about regulatory, um, and permitting and stuff. And you guys are kind of helping create some of those, uh, channels to make it a little easier for, for the industry deployable pilot, you know, developers to scale. Tell, just touch on that for a minute. How are you guys helping with that regulatory and permitting side of things? [00:38:17] Dr. James Van Sweeten: So I would say there are two ways that we're helping with that one through the years when we are putting stuff out there, anything related to Marine energy, we've helped develop kind of a permitting framework because when you're a very new technology going in a very new area, there isn't a permit application. So we've done a lot of what we as in others in the center, not me, but I've done a lot of tedious work, a lot of good work related to developing a permitting process for these technologies. Awesome. And so that, that I think is critical. Another way that we could help is if we get a permitted test range, then the individual device developers, at least up until like the prototype testing stage, they don't have to handle much of the permitting. They can work on making their system better, more efficient, cheaper, all that stuff. If we can handle the permitting and get a permitting test range that we can at least get them through the prototype testing, which is really important, which is huge. And then for full commercialization, I think they would have to kind of handle more of that load, but hopefully we've outlaid the groundwork for that. But I think having a permitted place for them to test is huge. And actually the Pacific center they've done in the Hawaii center, they're involved with doing that for wave energy. So they have wave energy test sites where somebody come plug in, test their device. They don't need to worry about they still have paperwork. Yeah. You can't do anything without the paperwork. It makes it a lot easier than if somebody came up with a wave energy converter and said, Hey, I want to put this in here. And so we're really hoping that we can remove that obstacle, let the device developer worry about developing their devices. We can take care of a lot of the permitting, get it tested, get it to that range where they're moving towards commercialization. And then we can assist with some of the regulatory stuff there, but that is key because that's so hard to get things in the water and you really, you don't want to do harm. You're wanting to do good. These are people who dedicated their lives to kind of like coming up with something that's going to make the world better, give you greener energy, all this stuff. So the last thing they want to do is go in there and do something that's going to hurt the environment. So, you know, there's a lot that goes into the investigation before you actually put anything into the water. And so, yeah, hopefully we can help a lot with that because that is, you know, sometimes not the area that if you're an engineer developing a new technology, that may not be your expertise. [00:41:04] Catherine O'Fallon: Well, and I'm glad you pointed that out because all of this, I mean, when we talk about marine renewable energy, we're talking about trying to be cleaner, more environmentally friendly, but also without causing harm to the ocean and the environment, the nature. I mean, that's one of the reasons so many people love this space is because they fell in love with the ocean in the first place. Yeah. And then they fell in love with that technology side of it. And so finding a way to harness this power and energy without doing more harm to the environment, something that's beneficial to us is what the blue and ocean economy is all about. And so you've said it so well that I love, I did not realize like how much the center does until we, you know, I kind of started going, doing a little bit more research. And this is really great because it is such an important piece to the puzzle of this ecosystem so that things can scale rapidly with all those checks and balances in place for the technology and the science, but the environmental side as well and the regulatory. So you guys play a really unique and pivotal role in that space. So as we're wrapping up, I would love your thoughts. Just one quick question about where do you see, like, this is, it can tell that you love what you're doing. You love talking about, you know, marine renewables and getting it out there. What are your hopes for like the next like five to 10 years in this? Maybe we even go five because apparently everything's shrinking in timescale now. What do you see with, you know, the center with marine renewable energy? What are your hopes for it? Well, I would say the kind of [00:42:46] Dr. James Van Sweeten: three main hopes. One, our core technology is ocean current energy and OTEC. We'd really like to see those move forward for ocean current energy. I would like to see devices proven working in the ocean for years, really showing, okay, this is feasible and then moving into commercialization because we still have that, that other step, you know, that we need to do because it's very tough environments. That would be getting systems in the water, tested, showing that they work, showing that they're reliable. So within the next five or 10 years, I think that we can do that and that'll be a major exciting step. Yep. For OTEC, which is the other area, the technology's kind of already done that. Got it. So we're trying to do studies and hopefully we're doing, we're contributing to getting maybe a 10, 20 megawatt plant installed. We're not going to be the ones installing that, but hopefully we can do research that enables that and hopefully those get in because there's an enormous amount of cold and warm water. Yeah. That could actually power the earth. That's awesome. So just helping get prototypes in the water for that and doing the research, the economics, the, that kind of stuff to help enable that, that would be my goal. Yeah. And that's, that's the second one. The third one is there's some kind of the tidal energy, wave energy, these technologies, there's some very ingenious local inventors, someone down in the Florida keys who's working on tidal energy. There's a company looking to put wave energy, at least one. So we'll really be able to help them with some of the local logistics, help move those technologies forward and seeing the wave wave or tidal, those resources that maybe aren't going to power the state, but they still can contribute to local communities, help those inventors move their technologies forward. So those would be my three [00:44:44] Catherine O'Fallon: main goals. Oh, I love that. That's a perfect way, I think, to wrap it up. And if there's people who are maybe watching who want to help or want to get connected with you, get connected with the center, [00:44:57] Dr. James Van Sweeten: where should they go to find you? So that would be our website. It's snmrec.fau.edu. And so that's our website. We just launched it and we still have to put some more information out there, but we're, we're getting it out there. It'll get out there. Well, if, if you didn't [00:45:16] Catherine O'Fallon: write all of that down, it'll be in our, all the links and different stuff that we'll be sharing out, because I think there's a lot of people who have different connectivity to this space, who are really excited about this space. As you said, there's a lot more people talking about it. There's a lot more incentive to help support this, this space. And so I think now kind of bringing all those people together is what we're trying to do. And now you can be the conduit to continue to help grow [00:45:45] Dr. James Van Sweeten: that space. Thank you. And one final thing is I know it's great that I get to sit here and do the interview, but there's really quite an ecosystem of professors and those within the various departments at our university. This is the college of engineering, computer science. That's where we're housed. We got electrical, computer science. We got a lot of ocean mechanical engineers, some civil engineers. So a lot of, yeah, I'm just kind of the face that's talking now, but there's quite a lot of people at FAU that are working on these projects. So it's kind of very fun to be a part of that team. [00:46:24] Catherine O'Fallon: That's awesome. Well, I, there is, and we only touched on like one project. You said there's quite a few things going on. So definitely go to the website. I know you guys will be sharing whatever you can, which is, you know, some of it's not shareable. Some of it is, but a lot of that information will be there. And we're really glad to help support and kind of give a little bit of visibility to what everyone's doing here at the center with FAU and, and the connectivity in this space. Cause it is a area that I think a lot of people are excited about supporting, uh, and learning more about. So it's been fun. [00:46:57] Dr. James Van Sweeten: I think a lot's going to happen in the next five or 10 years. So we're excited. And so thank you so [00:47:01] Catherine O'Fallon: much. All right. So our, we'll, you know, in a couple of years from now, we'll, we'll be getting back together maybe, uh, to hear, you know, what's, what's the progress with the center and what you guys have been working on, if not earlier, hopefully. Sounds great. Maybe we'll go out on the [00:47:15] Dr. James Van Sweeten: boat and hopefully see some things in the water. That would be awesome. Well, thank you so much, [00:47:19] Catherine O'Fallon: Jim, for sitting down with me. This was a lot of fun. I learned a lot. And for those of you who want to follow and learn some more, check out the links, uh, like, and subscribe. And we hope to see you again on another episode of the blue economy podcast. And thanks again and have a wonderful day. [00:47:35] Speaker 3: If your brand belongs in the heart of the yachting world, this is where it happens. Yachting international radio reaches over 1 million yachting professionals and enthusiasts every month with 77 million impressions, 220,000 social followers and 74,000 podcast subscribers. Our hosts are insiders, crew, captains, CEOs, trusted voices shaping the industry. This is targeted, high impact advertising in a luxury niche. Visit yachting international radio.com/advertise. Your audience is already listening.