'Americans Want Better' Liz Cheney Rebukes UNSERIOUS Trump With Shocking Midterm Prediction — N18G

[0:00] Good evening, everyone. I'm looking forward to this wonderful conversation. Congresswoman Cheney, thank you for joining us. [0:05] Well, it's my pleasure, really, and honor to be here. Thank you. [0:08] Well, you're very welcome. I wanted to start just with a values conversation and about the fact that you were raised in a political family [0:18] and, you know, absorbed the life of politics as a child all the way up. [0:26] I wonder whether you, what you learned about patriotism as a child and maybe what you later learned about it that may be different in your career path later on. [0:39] Well, thank you very much for the question and thank you again for having me and particularly having me here as part of the Center for Public Leadership. [0:49] It's hard to imagine a time more important than the one we're in for the work of the Center and what the Kennedy School is doing as a whole. [1:01] So it's an honor to be here. [1:02] You know, when I think back in terms of lessons of patriotism as I was growing up, you know, both of my parents really made an effort to make sure that my sister and I were exposed to and understood and spent time learning about American history. [1:24] And I think that's the best way for patriotism, the best foundation for patriotism. [1:30] I can't say that at the time that it was going on that I really appreciated it. [1:37] You know, my dad would take us to Civil War battlefields pretty frequently. [1:44] Oh, there's my dad. [1:45] That's actually the night that I was elected, my primary election in Wyoming. [1:55] But I think that they both, my father had, my mother has a tremendous love of history and a dedication to it. [2:04] And I think that when you understand what sacrifices people have made throughout the course of our nation's history [2:14] and when you understand the challenges that they've faced, the threats that they've faced, [2:20] I think it makes it much, much more likely that individuals that you will, in fact, appreciate that and understand the importance of service. [2:32] The other sort of really formative period for me in terms of my patriotism, I would say, is when I was working overseas. [2:39] And I was working at USAID and then at the State Department. [2:45] I began in 1989 working at AID before I went to law school. [2:53] I was working in countries starting in the Middle East and Asia, but then the wall came down. [3:00] And having the opportunity to spend time working in Poland and Hungary and Ukraine and Moscow really gave me a sense of an exposure to people [3:14] who were willing to do so much to try to secure their own freedom. [3:19] And I think that, you know, it's so important. [3:22] I always encourage young people, especially, to make sure that if you have the opportunity to spend time studying overseas, do it. [3:30] It is just, it's such a formative experience and I think really helps you understand and appreciate just this treasure that we have as Americans. [3:41] So I'm going to ask you how you can explain the Donald Trump phenomenon. [3:51] How much time do you have, Secretary Fox? [3:54] And with this context, so many times when people ask a question like this, [4:00] they're asking about the president and the current administration. [4:04] David Brooks wrote a column several months ago in which he said, [4:08] the question we should be asking is, what does it say about us? [4:11] Yeah. [4:12] Can you maybe provide your answer? [4:14] Yeah, you know, it's interesting. [4:15] I think about it, that phrasing. [4:19] I think about it actually in terms of this upcoming election next week, [4:23] in terms of the 2028 election. [4:27] You know, for a period of time during the Biden administration, [4:33] those of us, you know, in the Republican Party who were warning about the potential danger of re-electing President Trump, [4:44] you know, you sort of face a challenge of you're saying to people, [4:47] well, you know, you have to take my word for this. [4:49] After January 6th, you didn't have to take anybody's word for it. [4:54] We saw what he was capable of. [4:56] But now, unfortunately, we have seen, you know, almost two years now of what he is capable of [5:05] and of what damage is done by people who are enabling him. [5:09] And so this question of, you know, we know who he is. [5:15] There's not a single person in elected office today, maybe with very few exceptions, [5:21] who doesn't know who Donald Trump is, who doesn't know the kind of person he is. [5:27] But the question is, what kind of people are we as Americans? [5:30] And are we going to be a society that stands for the truth? [5:39] Are we going to hold accountable at the ballot box the men and women in elective office [5:45] who have enabled what he's doing? [5:48] I mean, I think that's one of the biggest challenges [5:53] and I think one of the saddest things, frankly, about the period that we've lived through [5:59] is the extent to which men and women who know better have been willing to rationalize [6:07] and accept and really enable things that are indefensible. [6:13] And so I think on the sort of on the positive side, [6:18] there's a real sense around the country that I get. [6:21] And now, you know, usually people who come to talk to me are self-selected. [6:27] But a sense of exhaustion and a sense that Americans want better. [6:34] And I think that means also we want better options and better choices. [6:41] And I think we would like our politics to be one that is characterized by respect [6:48] and characterized by seriousness. [6:51] And so I think that's the choice for us really coming up [6:55] is how do we make sure that we are electing people to office [7:00] and that we are holding accountable people who are in office [7:03] for their conduct in a way that really reflects the seriousness of the issues [7:10] that they have to handle and grapple with for all of us. [7:12] So since you brought up the midterms, I was going to ask this later, but I'll ask it now. [7:18] Some prognosticators believe the House will flip from Republican control to Democratic control. [7:25] There are also those who believe that the Senate is possibly also going to flip. [7:30] What's your prognostication and what do you think Republicans should do post-midterms [7:38] and what do you think Democrats should do post-midterms? [7:41] I think Republicans should come back into the light. [7:44] I think that, look, it certainly seems to be a situation where when you combine the fact [7:55] that the party that is in power in the presidency tends not to do well in midterms [8:01] with the reality of what we're seeing in terms of the economy, [8:05] in terms of the policy decisions that have been made, in terms of, you know, corruption. [8:11] I think one of the most interesting things in some of the polling I've seen recently [8:15] is the extent to which people are concerned about corruption in our leaders [8:19] at levels they haven't been before, that they haven't been concerned about it as an issue. [8:26] And I think that, you know, if the election, if we could count on the fact [8:32] that the election results were going to be respected, then I think it's clear the House will flip. [8:40] And I think the Senate is too close to call. [8:44] I think that you're beginning to see now a real effort on the part of the administration [8:51] to sow chaos and doubt and confusion, you know, whether they're doing this through some of the litigation [8:59] that they've filed, whether they're doing it through the ongoing claims about rigged elections [9:05] that we know are false. [9:07] And so I think it is going to be incumbent upon all of us to be very careful about making sure [9:14] we're standing for the truth, that we're not, you know, pushing stories that are fabricated, [9:22] that are untrue, that people have confidence in the election process. [9:25] I think it's also very important that the message is sent to the members of the House, [9:32] in particular the House Republican leadership right now, that the voters of this country expect [9:39] that they will do their duty, they will obey their oath to the Constitution, [9:43] that they will seat people who are elected, you know, regardless of whether those individuals [9:49] are members of the Republican Party or not, but that they will honor the will of the people. [9:54] Do you think that's at risk? [9:57] I do. [9:58] I think you have to be concerned about it because of the track record, [10:04] in particular what we saw happen in 2020. [10:07] And, you know, one of the real instigators of the effort in 2020 to reject electoral votes [10:16] was Mike Johnson. [10:19] And, you know, he was taking the position in 2020. [10:23] He didn't provide any evidence. [10:25] What he would do is say that, you know, he thought that we shouldn't count the votes [10:30] of certain states like Arizona, for example. [10:32] The phrasing he used was, because we are convinced, because we're convinced. [10:39] Now, that's not the role of the Congress to, you know, sort of act on some sort of manufactured [10:46] instinct and use that as an excuse to throw out the votes of our fellow citizens. [10:51] But I think you have to be concerned that, just based on precedent, [10:57] it doesn't leave you with a lot of confidence. [11:00] But I think making sure that they are on notice, that we are paying attention, [11:06] and that the American people expect them to do their duty is very important. [11:10] I want to take you back before January 6th into the first Trump term. [11:17] And according to at least 538, you voted with President Trump 93% of the time. [11:25] Did that reflect philosophical agreement with President Trump or party loyalty? [11:34] Yeah. [11:34] Look, I had joined the Republican Party because of substance and policy, [11:42] because of the things that I believe about a strong national defense [11:46] and limited government, low taxes. [11:49] So there's a substantive reason why I and, you know, millions of people are members of each party. [11:57] And I think if you go back to the first term, [12:01] you see that the president was actually governing in a way that was much more consistent [12:07] with traditional conservative Republican policies. [12:11] When he took steps that I disagreed with, I said so. [12:17] One of the very first disagreements that we had publicly, for example, [12:20] I think it was in January of 2017, right after we had both been sworn in, [12:26] he began to say, you know, NATO is obsolete, [12:30] and began to question the usefulness of U.S. participation in NATO, [12:35] and I spoke out against that. [12:37] So I spoke out when I disagreed with him. [12:42] But I think at that time, the other thing to remember is that Paul Ryan was Speaker of the House [12:48] for the first two years of the administration. [12:52] And so the Republicans, we really were putting forth legislation [12:56] that reflected conservative principles and values. [13:01] And I think it's really important that we differentiate [13:05] between policy perspectives and policy views [13:10] and constitutional challenges and issues. [13:17] And, you know, one of the things that I was asked after I voted to impeach, [13:23] when I would go home to Wyoming, [13:25] a number of times I was asked by my constituents, [13:28] people would say some version of, well, how could you vote to impeach a member of your own party? [13:35] And, you know, Wyoming had given President Trump his largest margin of victory of any state in the country. [13:41] And so I was surprised at the extent to which there wasn't a recognition, [13:48] certainly among my elected colleagues, [13:51] that your party affiliation should have nothing to do with questions of impeachment. [13:57] And your duty about, you know, has the president committed impeachable offenses [14:01] has got to be separate and apart from party affiliation. [14:05] It's really interesting because in some ways you could imagine [14:08] why an elected official might rationalize their position, [14:14] but for the public to also have the same rationalization. [14:18] Do you attribute a cause to that? [14:20] Is that something people are taught or what are we? [14:23] Well, I think you have to really distinguish between the behavior of elected Republicans in Congress [14:33] and voters. [14:36] And I think that partly what's happened among voters [14:39] is that the President Trump [14:42] betrayed a lot of very, very good and honorable and patriotic individuals. [14:50] And there are people around the country [14:52] who felt like, who feel like, you know, their voices weren't heard. [14:58] And President Trump managed to convince them that he was listening to them. [15:05] And so I think that betrayal is a very different thing [15:09] than the conduct of elected Republicans. [15:15] And look, I think rationalization is sort of like, [15:18] it's a fundamental human behavior. [15:21] The scale at which we've seen it, you know, [15:24] used to defend things that shouldn't be defended [15:28] is unusual historically for us in this country, I'd say. [15:33] So I'm going to take you up to the 2020 elections. [15:40] The Congress has a constitutional responsibility [15:42] to certify the elections. [15:45] And President Trump claimed that he, [15:49] not President-elect Biden at that point, [15:52] had won the election. [15:53] So roughly 140 of the House Republicans [15:58] objected to certifying the election results. [16:03] You were not among them. [16:05] And some privately agreed with your position. [16:11] Can you help us understand why members of Congress [16:13] would take a public position [16:15] and have a privately disclosed position to you? [16:19] Yeah, that happens sometimes. [16:21] I think that in this set of circumstances, [16:29] the members told themselves, [16:33] Republican members told themselves, [16:35] you know, and some of them said this publicly, [16:38] it doesn't really matter. [16:40] You know, like we're just saying [16:43] we're going to throw out some electoral votes. [16:45] You know, like let's just do this one last thing [16:50] and, you know, then we'll sort of be done with it. [16:54] And that was, that view was, you know, [16:58] was made very clear in terms of, you know, [17:03] people like Mike Johnson, you know, [17:06] filing the brief in the Supreme Court [17:07] that, you know, essentially he convinced members [17:11] to sign on to this brief that was without legal basis. [17:16] And, you know, and part of the excuse was [17:19] just do this one last thing. [17:21] You know, there was a moment on January 6th [17:25] before the session convened [17:28] when I was in the Republican cloakroom [17:30] and there were sheets that were laid out [17:33] on tables for members to sign. [17:37] And I didn't, I kind of walked in [17:38] and I said, hey, what's going on? [17:39] And one of the staff members said, [17:42] well, those are the objections. [17:43] So, you know, it would say Arizona, Michigan, [17:46] and members could sign on [17:48] to show their support for objecting. [17:50] And one Republican member, [17:52] as he worked his way down the line [17:54] and he signed every single piece of paper, [17:57] he said, I don't know if he knew he said this out loud, [18:02] but he said, the things we do for the orange Jesus. [18:05] And it was just such a moment [18:08] of, you know, convincing themselves [18:12] they could do this. [18:14] And the final point that's important to remember [18:17] is not only did they object, [18:22] but many of them told their constituents, [18:25] if you come to Washington on January 6th, [18:28] you can overturn these results. [18:30] And we had another moment [18:32] when the House Republicans were all meeting [18:34] a day or so before, [18:38] I think it was the day before, [18:40] when one of our members [18:42] who had been very vocal about telling her constituents, [18:47] come to Washington and you can change the results, [18:50] she stood up in this meeting of all of the Republicans [18:56] and she said, look, I'm really worried. [18:59] I'm worried about my security [19:01] because we've all told people they can come here [19:05] to overturn the results and that isn't true. [19:09] And when they find out it's not true, [19:10] they're going to be really angry at us. [19:13] So it was just this moment of, you know, [19:15] saying something out loud that made clear, you know, [19:22] people thought that they could conduct themselves this way. [19:25] And it was a lack of seriousness [19:27] about our constitutional responsibilities. [19:31] So take us inside the Capitol on January 6th. [19:35] You were in the chambers as the riot [19:40] or whatever people call it occurred. [19:43] What was it like on the inside? [19:45] Yeah. [19:47] The first thing that happened was, you know, [19:52] before the session was called to order, [19:56] I was in the cloakroom and I was working on my remarks. [20:00] I was going to speak that day to explain [20:02] why we didn't have the constitutional authority to object. [20:06] And my dad called me and he asked me [20:10] if I was watching President Trump's speech on the mall. [20:14] And I said I hadn't been because I was, you know, [20:16] working on my remarks. [20:18] And he said, you know, the president just said [20:21] we have to get rid of the Liz Cheneys of the world. [20:24] And we had a discussion about what did that mean? [20:29] He said, you know, the president has put a target on you [20:31] and you need to think carefully about that. [20:36] But through the course of our, you know, [20:39] it was a few minute discussion, I said to him, [20:43] I can't let the fact that the president has done that [20:47] stop me from speaking. [20:48] That seemed like a very fundamental moment [20:51] in a democratic system. [20:53] You know, we cannot have legislators fearful [20:57] because the president of the United States [21:00] has threatened them. [21:02] And I knew, you know, I think about that call [21:06] and my dad, and obviously he was worried as a father, [21:12] but I also know that, you know, [21:15] the heartbreak in his voice was also about our country [21:18] and that we'd come to that. [21:20] And at the end of the call, you know, [21:23] it was clear I was going to speak. [21:26] And he said to me, all right, call me when you're done [21:29] and I love you. [21:32] And the next time I spoke to him [21:34] was when we were being evacuated from the House floor. [21:38] And then the real feeling from that day, you know, [21:44] of being there in the chamber, being instructed, you know, [21:47] that the seats were bulletproof [21:49] and as the mob was banging on the doors, [21:52] the Capitol Police were telling us [21:53] to take cover behind the seats. [21:55] I mean, it was surreal. [21:57] But the emotion that I remember is just deep anger [22:00] that, you know, that this was happening [22:03] and that elected officials in this country [22:05] had contributed to this happening. [22:08] And it wasn't something that ever should happen, [22:11] certainly in the United States. [22:12] So a week after January 6th, [22:18] you voted to impeach President Trump. [22:23] You were the third-ranking Republican in the House, [22:26] the chair of the House Republican Conference, [22:28] and you knew the vote might end your career. [22:33] Walk us through the night before, [22:35] and was there any part of you [22:38] that was second-guessing your position? [22:40] No, I never second-guessed that vote. [22:47] And I honestly didn't think about it [22:52] in the context of what's it going to mean [22:54] for my future political career [22:57] because that seems like an inappropriate way to think. [23:01] It just didn't occur to me. [23:04] And what was happening in the days leading up to the vote [23:07] was, you know, there were a number of Republicans, [23:10] and don't forget, you know, we had started [23:13] in the day after the attack [23:15] with a really unified party. [23:18] And there were very few people [23:21] on the Republican side in the House [23:23] who, you know, were defending the president. [23:27] You know, maybe one or two, [23:30] but, you know, you had Kevin McCarthy [23:33] actually saying on our leadership call [23:35] that he was going to tell the president [23:36] he should resign. [23:37] I mean, there was absolute understanding [23:41] of what had happened. [23:43] I think that, you know, what changed [23:48] was a sense that people got [23:53] that, you know, we don't have to stick our necks out here [23:56] because Trump's done anyway. [23:59] And that was certainly, ultimately, [24:02] Senator McConnell's position. [24:04] And if I have to sort of look back [24:07] and see many moments, [24:09] but one really crucial moment [24:10] that led us to where we are today [24:12] was Mitch McConnell not voting to convict. [24:15] And I think if he had voted to convict, [24:18] you would have had, you know, [24:19] enough Republicans who would have followed him [24:23] that, you know, he would have been convicted. [24:25] And I think that that's a real tragedy. [24:29] And I think that was a political calculation. [24:31] The same notion of people believed [24:34] that Trump was finished [24:35] and that anybody who had done what he did [24:38] was simply not going to be accepted [24:41] back onto the national stage. [24:43] And so, therefore, they sort of thought, [24:44] well, we can get by this [24:46] without having to take the tough vote. [24:48] So, in the wake of all of this, [24:54] you become the vice chair [24:57] of the January 6th committee, [24:59] serving with the chair, Benny Thompson. [25:02] You kind of become [25:04] the Democrats' favorite Republican at this point. [25:08] It's really a title I aspired to in my life. [25:12] Were you ever worried [25:15] that progressives would use you [25:19] to hurt the Republican Party, [25:20] leaving aside the president? [25:22] No. [25:23] I mean, first of all, [25:25] I think progressives were so confused by me [25:27] that, you know, it was like, [25:30] no, I wasn't worried about that. [25:35] I was, it was unfortunate, again, [25:40] that we didn't have a bipartisan commission. [25:43] That, you know, process had basically been voted down, [25:49] so that wasn't going to happen. [25:50] And I thought about, [25:52] how could you possibly have gone through what we did [25:54] and not investigate, you know, [25:57] the, after every major crisis, [26:00] certainly in recent memory, [26:02] whether it was Pearl Harbor [26:03] or the attacks of 9-11, [26:06] we, as a country, [26:08] had a bipartisan commission. [26:09] And I thought, actually, [26:11] it would have been preferable [26:12] to have a bipartisan commission [26:13] made up of people [26:14] who weren't currently serving, [26:16] outside leaders and experts, [26:19] who really could take an in-depth look at this [26:22] without the pressure of being in office. [26:25] But when that was voted down, [26:28] the select committee became the option. [26:32] And, you know, [26:37] to be in a position where, [26:40] as somebody who, you know, [26:41] had been very Republican [26:43] and partisan, [26:47] not in a negative sense, [26:49] but probably sometimes, [26:51] you know, too partisan, [26:52] to be in a position [26:54] where I found myself serving on a committee [26:56] that, you know, [26:57] Speaker Pelosi was asking me to join. [27:00] You know, [27:00] I couldn't have imagined that. [27:01] It was, [27:02] I'm sure she couldn't have imagined it either, [27:03] actually. [27:05] But it was really important. [27:08] And I think the work we did [27:10] was so important, [27:11] partly because [27:12] there's a historic record now. [27:15] And the testimony [27:17] of the men and women [27:19] who were, you know, [27:21] those closest to President Trump [27:23] is there in the historic record. [27:27] And so, you know, [27:28] when people say it was a hoax [27:30] or it was made up by the Democrats, [27:34] that's just, you know, [27:35] that's simply not true. [27:37] And I think that [27:40] it was so important, [27:42] and this is relevant [27:43] for this election, [27:44] so important [27:45] that there were Republicans, [27:47] elected Republicans, [27:49] at a state level [27:51] who stood up [27:52] to tremendous pressure [27:53] from President Trump. [27:55] I see one of them [27:56] actually in the audience today, [27:59] Stephen Risher, [28:00] who did tremendous work [28:02] in Arizona [28:03] to ensure that [28:05] people's votes were counted, [28:08] that the certification [28:10] meant something [28:12] that, [28:13] and also Stephen has, [28:16] to this day, [28:17] I'm sorry to mention you, Stephen, [28:18] I hope that's okay, [28:19] but continue to this day [28:21] to stand up [28:22] against the charges [28:23] that, [28:24] the false charges [28:25] that are being made [28:26] about how the elections [28:27] were run. [28:29] But if it hadn't been [28:30] for those elected Republican officials, [28:33] you know, [28:34] being willing [28:35] to go against [28:35] the tremendous pressure [28:36] they were feeling, [28:37] I think the outcome [28:39] could have been far worse. [28:42] So, I often tell our students [28:45] that leadership [28:45] can sometimes be lonely, [28:48] and I wonder whether [28:49] you've already described [28:51] or whether there was [28:51] another low point [28:52] for you [28:53] in the course of all of this [28:54] and how you dealt with it. [28:59] You know, [29:01] I was talking earlier today. [29:04] I don't know [29:06] if I would describe this [29:07] as a low point, [29:08] but it was an emotional moment [29:10] and it was a moment [29:11] of realizing [29:13] what's at stake [29:15] and it has to do [29:16] with my kids. [29:19] And it was a few days [29:22] after the attack [29:24] and my husband [29:25] and I were having dinner [29:26] with our two youngest, [29:28] with our two sons, [29:29] and I looked across the table [29:32] at my sons [29:33] and I had this sort [29:35] of sudden realization [29:37] that, you know, [29:40] we have lived [29:42] in a country [29:42] where we took for granted, [29:45] we could, [29:45] we had the luxury [29:46] to take for granted [29:47] that we would always know [29:50] a peaceful transfer [29:51] of power, [29:52] that we would have [29:53] these intense, [29:54] important debates [29:56] and discussions, [29:57] but that you could count on. [29:59] You didn't have to worry [29:59] that power was going [30:01] to transfer by violence. [30:03] And when I looked [30:03] at my sons, [30:04] I had this, you know, [30:06] this thought of, [30:08] are they going to know that? [30:09] Are they going to grow up [30:10] in a country [30:10] that's characterized [30:11] by a peaceful transfer [30:13] of power? [30:14] And being able [30:16] to take that for granted [30:17] is a blessing. [30:19] And so that was [30:20] a very emotional moment [30:21] for me, [30:22] but it was also a moment [30:23] of, you know, [30:24] this is a fight [30:26] we have to win [30:27] and we can't be frivolous [30:32] about this tremendous jewel, [30:35] as Abraham Lincoln called it, [30:37] an estimable jewel [30:38] of our freedom. [30:42] Your father passed away [30:44] almost a year ago. [30:46] Yeah. [30:47] And he stood with you publicly [30:49] through this whole ordeal. [30:53] Would you share [30:54] what your conversations [30:55] with him were like? [30:57] Yeah, I, [30:59] actually, Election Day [31:00] will be the one-year anniversary [31:02] of my dad's passing. [31:03] And throughout my whole life, [31:07] he was my most trusted [31:11] and important advisor. [31:14] I talked to him every day, [31:16] usually multiple times a day. [31:18] And what a blessing it was [31:21] to grow up watching his career [31:29] in public service, [31:30] learning from him, [31:32] and also being able then, [31:35] you know, [31:35] to get advice [31:36] and guidance from him. [31:39] And he, you know, [31:41] his advice would range [31:42] from sort of in-depth [31:44] policy analysis [31:45] about, you know, [31:47] our nuclear forces [31:49] and our nuclear triad [31:51] to one time I called him [31:53] before I was about [31:55] to go speak [31:55] to a group in Wyoming [31:56] and I said, [31:58] Dad, I'm going to go speak [31:59] to this group. [32:00] Do you have any advice for me? [32:01] And he said, Liz, [32:02] that is a really important group, [32:04] so don't screw it up. [32:07] And I'm like, [32:07] that's really helpful. [32:10] But I think sometimes people ask, [32:14] they seem surprised [32:16] that he stood the way [32:19] that he did [32:20] because he was [32:22] a lifelong Republican. [32:24] But he never wavered. [32:26] And throughout this whole period, [32:28] you know, [32:30] he was somebody [32:31] who was very clear [32:33] about what was at stake. [32:36] On New Year's Day in 2021, [32:41] so five days before January 6th, [32:45] we were having lunch [32:46] at my parents' house. [32:48] And, you know, [32:49] we had been going through [32:50] watching sort of this [32:52] constant build [32:54] and the lies [32:55] and the attacks [32:56] and the concern [32:57] that the Defense Department, [32:58] for example, [33:00] you know, [33:01] we'd had Chairman [33:03] of the Joint Chiefs, [33:04] Mark Milley, [33:05] had put out a statement [33:05] at one point in December [33:07] saying, [33:08] the U.S. military [33:09] has no role [33:09] in our elections. [33:11] And that caused huge blowback [33:14] from the President, [33:16] which, [33:16] and that should be [33:17] an unobjectionable position. [33:20] But so it was clear [33:22] that this was [33:23] a very difficult moment. [33:25] And as my dad walked me [33:27] to the car, [33:28] he came around [33:30] and he gave me a hug [33:31] and he said to me, [33:32] defend the Republic daughter. [33:35] And it's, [33:38] first of all, [33:39] it's very moving [33:40] to talk about. [33:41] I try to live up to that. [33:44] But also when I say it, [33:45] I think like, [33:46] really, [33:46] who talks like that? [33:47] Defend the Republic daughter? [33:49] But, you know, [33:50] he did [33:51] and it was very, [33:52] very sincere. [33:54] We've, to this point, [33:56] talked about [33:57] your rock-solid principles [33:59] around constitutionality [34:01] and so forth. [34:03] But there are times [34:04] when people of principle [34:06] change their minds [34:07] on things. [34:08] And I know, [34:10] for example, [34:10] in 2013, [34:11] you opposed same-sex marriage [34:12] and then later [34:13] changed your position. [34:14] When is it okay [34:17] for one [34:18] to change their minds? [34:20] When you get [34:22] something wrong. [34:24] And I think [34:28] that every individual [34:31] knows there's [34:32] a fundamental difference [34:33] between sort of [34:36] flip-flopping on issues [34:38] because you're trying [34:39] to sort of see [34:40] which way the wind blows [34:41] or, you know, [34:42] you look at the people [34:43] around the president today [34:44] who used to speak [34:46] very publicly [34:46] about the danger [34:48] that he poses [34:48] and who now [34:49] have embraced him. [34:51] So there's a difference [34:52] between that sort of [34:54] change in position [34:55] and a change [34:56] that comes from saying, [34:58] look, I have thought [34:59] about this [35:00] and I understand it [35:02] and I have a lived experience [35:03] that's caused me [35:05] to know [35:06] that I got that wrong. [35:09] And we all get things wrong. [35:11] And I think [35:12] it's really important [35:13] that we have elected officials [35:15] who will say, [35:16] I got it wrong. [35:19] And so I think, you know, [35:22] as important as that is [35:24] in sort of how we deal [35:25] with individuals [35:26] as humans [35:26] in the non-political realm, [35:28] it's important in politics too. [35:30] So you and I are both lawyers [35:31] and we follow the courts [35:34] and various things. [35:35] I wonder how you think [35:36] the courts are holding up [35:38] amid all of the various challenges, [35:40] including the Supreme Court. [35:41] Yeah, I mean, look, [35:43] I think that if you look [35:44] at the three branches [35:46] of our government, [35:46] the courts today [35:48] are just doing hugely important work [35:53] and sometimes standing alone [35:56] against this onslaught. [36:00] And they don't always [36:01] get everything right. [36:03] You know, I think [36:03] the Supreme Court's decision [36:05] on the immunity case [36:06] was not right. [36:09] And I think whatever [36:10] they were intending [36:11] to say [36:12] what Trump took from it [36:14] is that he's completely immune [36:15] and he can do anything [36:16] that he wants [36:17] when he's in office. [36:20] But I think [36:22] for the most part [36:23] we have seen [36:25] on a bipartisan basis [36:27] and that's probably [36:28] the wrong word, [36:29] we've seen judges [36:30] appointed by both Democrats [36:32] and Republicans [36:33] who have stood for the rule of law [36:37] and that gives me hope. [36:43] I'm going to ask my last question [36:44] before we go turn it over [36:45] to the audience. [36:46] And by the way, [36:47] we have microphones here, [36:48] here, here, and here. [36:50] When you ask a question, [36:51] just let us know [36:52] what your name is [36:53] and what school you're a part of. [36:56] Would you serve again [37:00] and under what circumstances? [37:01] I wouldn't, [37:04] you know, [37:04] I'm certainly not going to say [37:06] I would never serve again. [37:09] I have a real sense, though, [37:13] that right now, [37:15] sort of the challenges [37:16] that we face [37:17] really require [37:18] that we kind of step back [37:21] from the way we've been [37:22] doing our politics. [37:24] And I spend a lot of time [37:26] on campuses [37:27] around the country [37:28] and thinking and writing [37:30] about sort of [37:31] how do we get back [37:32] to first principles [37:33] and how do we get back [37:35] to a politics [37:36] that serves us [37:39] and that will maintain [37:42] our constitutional republic. [37:45] And so, [37:46] and I think that's an issue [37:47] that requires a lot [37:49] of good people [37:50] being willing to serve. [37:53] And look, [37:53] I think this also is an issue [37:55] that people need [37:56] to be thinking about [37:56] as the midterms come up [37:58] because of the role [38:00] the Senate has played [38:01] and the role [38:02] that, you know, [38:03] individual senators have played [38:05] in confirming [38:05] some of the most inept [38:08] and competent individuals [38:10] to some of the most [38:11] critically important [38:12] cabinet positions. [38:14] And that power [38:15] of confirmation [38:16] is very significant. [38:19] And I think that, [38:21] you know, [38:21] when senators vote [38:22] to confirm people [38:23] like, you know, [38:24] Pete Hegseth, [38:25] RFK junior [38:27] and a range of others, [38:29] I think that really [38:30] calls into question, [38:33] it would for me, [38:34] calls into question [38:35] their credibility [38:36] about their independence [38:37] and their willingness [38:38] to do what's right. [38:40] Thank you. [38:42] We'll start with questions [38:43] and we'll start over here. [38:47] Hi. [38:48] Thank you so much [38:48] for joining us here tonight. [38:49] My name's Natasha. [38:50] I'm a college student [38:52] studying econ history [38:53] and it's been [38:54] an absolute pleasure [38:55] to hear from you tonight. [38:56] My question is, [38:58] do you think Trumpism [38:59] or whatever you want [39:01] to call it [39:01] has fundamentally changed [39:03] the Republican Party? [39:05] Yeah. [39:06] Definitely. [39:07] But I also think [39:08] it's an interesting, [39:09] it's an interesting phenomenon [39:11] for a number of reasons, [39:13] including because, [39:15] you know, [39:16] it's not conservative. [39:19] I'm constantly [39:20] sort of surprised, [39:23] for example, [39:23] by the extent to which [39:24] the president, [39:27] people around him [39:29] speak about [39:31] how opposed [39:34] they are to socialism, [39:35] which, you know, [39:36] I agree we should be [39:37] opposed to socialism, [39:39] but this president [39:41] has, you know, [39:41] used taxpayer dollars [39:43] to take stakes [39:44] in private companies, [39:45] to have U.S. government [39:46] take stakes [39:47] in private companies [39:48] on a level [39:50] that we haven't seen before. [39:51] And it's just sort of one example [39:54] of this fundamental move [39:55] away from what the party [39:57] used to stand for. [39:59] The other place [40:00] I think this is very evident [40:02] is what's happening [40:03] in Russia and Ukraine [40:04] and the extent to which [40:06] this administration [40:08] has not just made a decision [40:10] that America won't be involved. [40:13] President Trump has put us firmly [40:15] on the side, [40:16] he's attempting, [40:16] to put us firmly [40:17] on the side of Vladimir Putin. [40:19] And to be in a situation [40:21] where we are essentially [40:23] rewarding the Russians, [40:25] providing, you know, [40:28] financial incentives [40:29] to the Russians, [40:30] while we know [40:32] they have provided [40:33] and may still be providing [40:35] intelligence [40:36] that allows Iranians [40:37] to target Americans, [40:39] to target our men [40:40] and women in uniform, [40:41] and to be looking [40:42] the other way [40:43] and aligning us [40:46] with Putin [40:47] and against the forces [40:48] of freedom [40:49] is a fundamental departure [40:52] from where the Republican Party [40:53] has been in the past. [40:55] Thank you. [40:57] Hi. [40:58] Oh, sorry. [40:59] Yes, ma'am. [40:59] Thank you so much [41:00] for being with us today. [41:02] My name is Sophie. [41:03] I'm a sophomore [41:03] at the college, [41:04] also studying history. [41:07] You said today [41:08] that concerns [41:09] about re-election [41:10] didn't factor [41:11] into your decision [41:12] about whether or not [41:14] to vote for impeachment, [41:15] but for most [41:16] of your colleagues, [41:17] your Republican colleagues [41:18] who were facing [41:19] that decision, [41:19] it clearly did. [41:21] I was wondering [41:21] if you think fear [41:23] of losing re-election [41:24] or, like, being challenged [41:26] in primaries [41:27] had always shaped [41:28] the decisions [41:29] of Congress people [41:30] this much, [41:30] or if there was, like, [41:31] something unique [41:32] about the Trump era [41:34] that's made it harder [41:35] for Republicans [41:36] to make choices [41:37] that put the country [41:39] over their party. [41:41] That's an interesting question. [41:42] Look, I think that [41:44] if you're in elected office, [41:48] election matters, [41:49] and so I think [41:50] it's always informed [41:52] people's behavior. [41:55] You know, I think that, [41:57] though you can look back [41:57] and find moments, [41:59] for example, [42:00] in the aftermath [42:01] of Watergate [42:02] when you had a group [42:03] of Republican senators [42:04] who, you know, [42:05] went to the White House [42:06] to see President Nixon [42:08] and tell him, you know, [42:09] he needed to resign. [42:11] You could point back [42:12] to moments [42:13] where people were willing [42:14] to put service [42:17] to the country [42:18] ahead of thinking [42:19] about re-election. [42:20] I also think, though, [42:22] it gets back [42:23] to leadership [42:25] because the role [42:28] of an elected official [42:29] should be [42:30] both to represent [42:33] the people [42:34] who have sent you [42:35] to Washington, [42:36] and also, obviously, [42:41] you know, [42:41] your duty [42:42] to the Constitution [42:42] is above everything, [42:44] but to represent [42:45] your constituents. [42:46] But there are times [42:47] when, on policy matters, [42:49] you may make a vote [42:51] or take a position [42:52] and then you go home [42:54] and explain it. [42:56] And I think thinking [42:57] about elected officials [42:59] as leaders, [43:00] you know, [43:00] as you are helping [43:01] to explain [43:02] and educate [43:03] and talk [43:04] to your constituents [43:04] as you're learning [43:05] from them. [43:07] You know, [43:07] our elected officials [43:09] also shape [43:10] public opinion. [43:12] And so I think [43:13] that there's not [43:15] as much of that [43:16] in the mix [43:17] as we should have. [43:21] But, you know, [43:22] and I think what we have [43:25] seen happen [43:26] should make us think [43:28] more seriously [43:29] about term limits, [43:30] which is something [43:31] that, you know, [43:32] is a much longer discussion. [43:34] I've not always been [43:35] a supporter [43:35] of term limits. [43:37] But I do think, [43:38] you know, [43:39] we need to find ways [43:40] to encourage [43:42] and reinforce [43:43] elected officials [43:45] taking positions [43:46] that aren't just focused [43:48] on how am I going [43:50] to survive [43:50] the next election. [43:53] Hi. [43:54] I promised myself [43:56] some years ago [43:57] that if I ever [43:57] had the opportunity, [43:58] I would say thank you [43:59] for all the work [44:00] that you did [44:01] on the committee. [44:02] Thank you. [44:03] But thank you [44:03] in general [44:04] for everything [44:04] you've done [44:05] to defend the republic [44:06] than up until now. [44:09] I tried to get [44:10] oath and honor [44:11] from four different [44:12] area bookstores. [44:13] Oh my gosh. [44:14] None of them had it. [44:15] You're breaking my heart. [44:18] I know people. [44:19] If I can get a copy [44:21] and send it to you [44:23] either through [44:23] the Institute of Politics [44:25] or through your... [44:26] Is there a question? [44:27] Yes, there is. [44:28] The question is [44:29] if I can send [44:30] that copy to you, [44:31] would you autograph [44:33] it for me? [44:34] Yes. [44:36] I'd be honored to. [44:37] And if you talk [44:38] to the folks here [44:39] at the IOP [44:41] and at the Center [44:42] for Public Leadership, [44:43] they know how to find me. [44:45] I will do that. [44:46] Thank you very much. [44:47] Thank you. [44:47] All right. [44:51] Asked and answered. [44:52] Fantastic. [44:53] Okay. [44:54] Good evening. [44:55] I've got a certainly [44:57] a little different [44:57] type of question. [44:58] My name is Tanyola Suleiman. [45:00] I'm a student here [45:01] at the Kennedy School, [45:01] also at the Tuck School [45:02] of Business [45:03] at Dartmouth College. [45:04] Thank you for being here, [45:05] Representative Cheney. [45:07] My question comes [45:08] from a concern [45:09] in the behaviors [45:10] of politicians [45:11] and the mechanisms [45:12] that may incite, [45:14] let's say, [45:14] less than sincere behaviors. [45:16] You just mentioned [45:16] term limits, [45:17] but would love [45:18] to give your thoughts [45:19] on what changes [45:20] should be made [45:21] regarding money [45:22] in politics, [45:23] campaign contributions, [45:26] that kind of thing, [45:27] and as well [45:27] as term limits. [45:28] Yeah. [45:29] I think with respect [45:30] to campaign finance, [45:32] I think we're [45:34] in a mess right now. [45:36] And I believe strongly [45:38] that campaign contributions [45:41] are political speech. [45:42] I think that people [45:43] ought to have the right, [45:45] it should be protected, [45:46] to dedicate their resources [45:50] towards causes [45:51] they believe in. [45:52] But I think [45:53] we need more transparency. [45:55] I would like to see [45:57] candidates have to [45:58] immediately disclose [46:00] where the resources [46:01] are coming from. [46:03] And I also think [46:05] that the Citizens United [46:07] decision had consequences [46:10] that perhaps had not [46:12] been anticipated. [46:12] I mean, [46:13] when you have the growth [46:15] of super PACs, [46:17] and this was certainly [46:19] the circumstance [46:19] when I was running [46:20] in Wyoming, [46:21] as a candidate [46:23] to be carrying out [46:26] sort of your campaign strategy, [46:28] and then you have [46:28] these groups, [46:29] these super PAC groups [46:30] that come in [46:31] to spend money, [46:32] and you can't talk to them, [46:34] and they are spending money [46:36] in your race [46:37] that may be focused [46:39] on issues [46:39] that aren't helpful [46:41] or that aren't [46:43] in any way representative [46:44] of what you stand for, [46:46] that situation [46:48] was not a good one. [46:51] The situation [46:51] we're in today, [46:53] where now candidates [46:54] can coordinate, [46:56] some of those obstacles [46:57] have been lifted, [46:58] is also troubling [47:01] when you have [47:02] somebody like Elon Musk [47:06] who's putting hundreds [47:07] of millions of dollars [47:08] into these races. [47:10] Look, [47:11] I think ultimately [47:12] we're going to find [47:13] that there's [47:14] a saturation level, [47:15] and people can't be bought [47:17] for the most part. [47:18] I think, [47:19] you know, [47:19] political spending [47:20] isn't the ultimate [47:21] determinant [47:22] in who wins races, [47:25] but I think [47:27] we have to find [47:27] a better balance [47:28] that protects [47:29] people's constitutional rights. [47:31] I don't like the idea [47:33] of government financing [47:36] for campaigns. [47:37] I think that, [47:38] you know, [47:38] I always think of that [47:39] as a taxpayer. [47:40] Why should my taxpayer dollars [47:41] be used to support candidates [47:43] I don't agree with? [47:45] But I think that moves [47:48] we can make [47:48] towards much greater transparency [47:50] are certainly a step [47:53] in the right direction. [47:54] Thank you. [47:55] Back over here. [47:56] Thank you. [47:59] Good evening, Congresswoman. [48:00] Thanks very much [48:01] for being here. [48:02] Thank you. [48:02] For years, [48:03] you argued [48:04] that the Obama nuclear deal [48:05] with Iran was a failure, [48:07] and you pushed to dismantle it [48:08] and cancel negotiations. [48:10] You spoke about [48:10] your many disagreements [48:11] with the administration tonight, [48:13] but on Iran, [48:14] they seem to have [48:14] ultimately steered [48:15] towards your position [48:16] on confronting Iran [48:18] when they started the war. [48:20] However, [48:20] now eight months [48:21] into this war, [48:22] thousands of Iranian civilians [48:23] and hundreds of U.S. service members [48:25] have been killed or injured. [48:27] The Strait of Hormuz [48:27] is being used as leverage [48:29] in a way that [48:29] it never was before, [48:30] and we're no closer [48:31] to a definitive settlement. [48:33] Most Americans say [48:34] that the war was a mistake [48:36] and that the country [48:36] would be lucky [48:37] to go back to the JCPOA. [48:39] So looking back, [48:40] would you now [48:41] also acknowledge [48:42] that it was a mistake [48:43] to withdraw from the deal? [48:44] I think you have to separate [48:46] those two things. [48:48] Those are both huge issues. [48:50] With respect to the JCPOA, [48:53] my concerns about it remain, [48:56] and one of those [48:59] was that the verification structure [49:03] and framework [49:03] that was put in place [49:04] wasn't a real one. [49:06] And, you know, [49:07] you had Secretary Kerry [49:09] at the time, for example, [49:10] saying, [49:11] oh, the deal is going [49:11] to guarantee anywhere, [49:13] any place, any time, inspections. [49:15] That didn't happen. [49:17] And there is often [49:20] a tendency inside [49:21] the State Department, [49:22] and this happens [49:23] in both Republican [49:24] and Democratic administrations, [49:26] for people to sort of say, [49:28] oh, any deal [49:29] is better than no deal. [49:30] And, you know, [49:31] it's rationalization, [49:33] you know, [49:33] in a different way of, [49:35] well, it's better [49:36] to have this deal [49:37] than not. [49:39] But I think what happened [49:41] was a couple of things. [49:43] one, Iran gained benefits, [49:45] which ultimately [49:48] it was able to use [49:50] in ways to continue [49:53] to support terrorism [49:54] around the world. [49:56] The second real problem [49:58] with the deal [49:59] was when the United States [50:01] said we will allow, [50:03] we will agree [50:04] that Iran can enrich uranium, [50:06] that essentially began [50:08] the dismantlement [50:09] of the Nuclear [50:10] Non-Proliferation Treaty. [50:11] And whereas before that, [50:15] we had a structure, [50:17] imperfect, [50:18] but it was a structure [50:18] where we could say [50:19] to countries [50:20] around the world, [50:21] you don't need [50:21] your own nuclear weapons [50:22] program, [50:23] you can count [50:24] on our nuclear umbrella. [50:25] And that depended [50:28] in part upon [50:29] the structure [50:30] about who can enrich [50:31] and who can't. [50:32] And when the Obama [50:33] administration agreed [50:34] that Iran could enrich, [50:36] it began to dismantle [50:38] that structure. [50:39] So I think that there [50:41] were a lot of problems [50:42] with the JCPOA. [50:43] I don't think that [50:44] it was effective [50:46] in stopping Iran's [50:47] march toward [50:48] a nuclear weapon. [50:50] But saying that [50:52] does not mean [50:54] that you look [50:55] at the current situation [50:56] and say that [50:58] the current situation [51:00] is one that is [51:01] not exceedingly dangerous. [51:05] And I think [51:08] one of the real challenges [51:09] we face [51:10] is you can't separate out [51:12] an analysis [51:13] of what's happening [51:14] in Iran, [51:16] the decisions [51:18] that our commander-in-chief [51:19] is making, [51:20] from the fact [51:21] that our commander-in-chief [51:22] is depraved. [51:23] And so the lack [51:30] of a serious process [51:31] and serious policymaking. [51:34] And I mentioned earlier [51:36] the fact that [51:37] we know the Russians [51:39] and the Chinese [51:40] have been helping [51:42] the Iranians. [51:44] And we also know [51:45] that they're watching. [51:47] And we are today [51:51] facing a situation [51:52] that I think [51:52] has not been [51:54] fully disclosed [51:54] to the American people [51:55] about the situation [51:56] with our stockpiles, [51:57] with our munitions. [51:58] I think the amount [52:00] that's been expended [52:01] is much higher [52:02] than the administration's [52:03] telling us. [52:04] I think that [52:05] the damage [52:06] that's been done [52:07] to American facilities [52:09] in the Middle East [52:11] is very significant. [52:13] And so I think [52:14] that a reasonable [52:17] and a rational response [52:19] and approach to Iran [52:20] that had involved [52:21] maximum pressure [52:23] that involved [52:26] the use of military force [52:27] where necessary, [52:28] if necessary, [52:30] there's a reasonable [52:32] and responsible approach [52:33] we could have taken [52:35] that doesn't mean [52:36] embracing the JCPOA, [52:37] but also doesn't mean [52:38] embracing the dangerous [52:40] moment that we're in now [52:42] because what you've said [52:43] about Iran is right. [52:44] It's true. [52:46] Thank you. [52:46] Okay. [52:47] We have a hard stop at seven, [52:48] so I'm trying to get [52:49] as many in as we can. [52:50] Let's go up here. [52:51] Thank you for your time tonight. [52:53] This will be a very quick one, [52:54] more in the legal direction. [52:56] Do either of you feel [52:57] that perhaps Congress [52:57] could have breached [52:59] the non-delegation doctrine, [53:00] specifically on declarations [53:01] of war taxation [53:02] and assignment of funds? [53:07] You want to answer that first? [53:08] You're our guest. [53:10] I want to make sure [53:11] you have a chance. [53:12] I think it's very clear [53:18] that Congress is not playing [53:20] the role that it was intended [53:23] to play, and if you go back [53:26] and you read the Federalists, [53:28] for example, it's very clear. [53:30] I mean, it's an incredible [53:32] and a miraculous structure [53:33] that our framers put in place, [53:37] but it is one that depends upon, [53:39] fundamentally depends upon [53:40] the character of the people [53:41] in office, and depends upon [53:43] their notion that they could [53:46] count on, in a separated [53:48] government, they could count [53:50] on individuals who were [53:52] in the legislature to protect [53:55] and guard their authority, [53:57] and that's certainly [53:59] not happening today, [54:01] and a whole range of issues [54:02] that you've mentioned, [54:05] as well as the appropriation [54:08] of funds, and it's hard [54:12] to know exactly where to stop [54:14] because the list is so long, [54:16] and I think that when we think [54:18] about what the solutions are, [54:21] the solutions fundamentally [54:22] and ultimately the single [54:24] most important one [54:24] is to elect better people [54:26] because we can put guardrails [54:28] in place. [54:29] We certainly need to learn [54:31] from what's happened [54:31] in this moment, [54:32] but if the president is going [54:34] to blow through the guardrails, [54:36] then they don't provide [54:39] much protection to us, [54:40] but people can do that. [54:44] And I'll be happy to answer [54:45] after, but I want to save time. [54:47] Here and here, real quick, [54:49] and we'll try to take these both [54:50] and then ask our guest to answer. [54:53] Good evening, Congresswoman Cheney. [54:54] My name is Suraj. [54:55] I'm a first year at the college. [54:56] My question is about [54:57] American exceptionalism, [54:59] which I think has long rested [55:00] on the belief that the U.S. [55:01] has a uniquely special role [55:03] in the world [55:04] in defending democratic values. [55:05] Given the democratic challenges [55:08] that we've witnessed at home, [55:09] do you believe [55:09] that American exceptionalism [55:11] remains a credible ideal [55:12] or has it made us complacent? [55:14] Okay, any here? [55:16] Hi, Congresswoman. [55:17] My name is Aaron Sanchez. [55:18] I'm a MVP one here. [55:20] I've spent most of my career [55:21] in democratic politics [55:22] in the California delegation, [55:24] but the health policy wins [55:25] I care about, [55:26] like student mental health legislation, [55:27] have often needed Republican votes. [55:29] From your time in leadership [55:30] and on the January 6th committee, [55:31] what actually earns Republican support [55:33] for Democrat-led legislation [55:35] and who in the 120th Congress [55:37] on your side of the aisle [55:38] are worth investing with [55:40] to build bipartisan solutions? [55:42] Okay. [55:43] I'm going to answer yours first [55:45] because I already forgot yours. [55:47] Exceptionalism. [55:48] Yeah. [55:51] So we have to have bipartisanship [55:55] to get to solutions. [55:57] There's no question. [55:58] And I think that there are serious members [56:03] on both sides of the aisle. [56:04] Unfortunately, you know, [56:07] you have some members, [56:09] some of the most serious [56:10] and responsible ones leave, [56:12] which is challenging. [56:15] And I'm sitting here, [56:17] like I'm hesitating to name Republicans. [56:19] I don't know that that'll help them. [56:21] But I think that elected officials [56:25] who I often use the examples [56:28] of people on the Democratic side [56:30] like Alyssa Slotkin and Abigail Spanberger [56:33] and Mikey Sherrill, [56:34] who all were in the House when I was. [56:37] And we served on the House Armed Services Committee together. [56:44] And what I found was two things. [56:47] One is I knew I could always go to them [56:50] and say, explain to me why you believe X, Y, or Z. [56:53] If it was an issue that we disagreed on, [56:55] for example, [56:57] and we could sit [56:59] and have substantive policy discussions. [57:02] And it didn't mean we were going to end up [57:03] in the same place. [57:05] But I did understand their views [57:08] and I hope that, you know, [57:09] they learned from me as well. [57:12] And the other thing about the three of them, [57:14] and there are others too, [57:15] but, and they were like always prepared, always. [57:20] And so if we were going to have a committee hearing [57:22] or if they'd proposed an amendment [57:23] that, you know, I was going to speak against, [57:26] for example, [57:26] I knew I had to come ready [57:28] because they were. [57:30] And, and that makes all of us better. [57:32] And so I, I think that it, [57:36] while I wish there were more, [57:38] frankly, on both sides, [57:40] I think that as voters, [57:43] helping to reinforce the people [57:44] that, that are engaged [57:46] in substantive discussion helps. [57:50] And look, I think at the state level, [57:52] it's really important too, [57:53] not just at the federal level. [57:54] And sometimes it's easier at a state level [57:57] to, to get bipartisan solutions done. [58:01] Thank you. [58:02] And then with respect to American exceptionalism, [58:07] I, I don't think that you can ever count America out. [58:13] And we were founded on the, [58:16] the values that, that have been values [58:20] that people around the world [58:23] and throughout history [58:24] have, have wanted to, to be part of, [58:26] have wanted to, to live under, [58:28] have, have, have, I think, you know, [58:32] they're, they're inalienable. [58:34] And, and so I think that, [58:39] I wouldn't say that we have lost that, [58:44] but I, I would say that we're at a moment [58:47] where it really matters what we do next. [58:50] And it, it really matters how we engage with the world [58:55] after the Trump administration, [58:56] because there's so much work that has to be done [58:59] to rebuild alliances, [59:01] and to, to, to convince people [59:05] they can count on us again. [59:06] But, but understanding the importance [59:10] of those alliances [59:11] and how much they, they multiply our own power [59:16] and our own ability to advocate for what matters, [59:19] I think has to be a fundamental part [59:22] of, of our next campaigns. [59:26] We're going to have to leave it there. [59:27] I apologize. [59:28] I wish we could have gotten more questions, [59:30] but let me, let's give a round of applause [59:32] for Ms. Chairman. [59:32] Thank you all. [59:33] It's a wonderful guest. [59:34] Thank you for being here. [59:35] Thank you. [59:35] Thank you. [59:35] Thank you. [59:36] Thank you. [59:36] Thank you. [59:36] Thank you. [59:37] Thank you. [59:37] Thank you. [59:38] Thank you. [59:38] Thank you. [59:38] Thank you. [59:39] Thank you. [59:39] Thank you. [59:40] Thank you. [59:40] Thank you. [59:41] Thank you. [59:41] Thank you.