Zelenskyy on Russia, Putin’s lies – and fighting back — Politics Weekly

[0:00] Thank you very much, Mr. President. Thank you for talking to The Guardian today. The war in Ukraine [0:06] situation is looking pretty optimistic for Ukrainians I talked to. Their mood is up. We [0:13] see some Petersburg burning. We see long range strikes on Russia. We see mid range strikes on [0:18] occupied territory. Is Ukraine winning the war, in your opinion? Are you winning? [0:25] Yeah, thanks so much. So, first of all, it's really, I'm so sorry, but it's difficult to use the word [0:34] optimistic about the war. I mean, to me, because it's, you know, we will be very happy when the [0:42] war will end. And of course, the situation on the battlefield is much better than it was during the [0:52] year. Two and a half years. So this is looks really optimistic for us. But you know that the [1:03] situation on the battlefield can change each day. But we see that steps last some months are more [1:13] strong from our side. And Russia, we can't say that they are losing this war, but we can say that they [1:20] are losing this initiative. Each day, day by day, they're losing this because they lose just a lot of [1:29] people. 30, 35,000, 23, 24 are killed, that people. And 10, 12,000 are hardly wounded. They are not winning the [1:44] war. This is so important for us. It's another step in this war. It's another page in this absolutely [1:53] terrible history. And we don't see their optimism from their side during next month, some months. I don't [2:05] know, I don't know, I don't know how much they will continue to continue to increase offensive, offensive [2:14] steps on the battlefield. I don't know. I hope, you know, each day, each week and month, we hope, finding [2:20] different formats of negotiations. We, we, we really hope that we can sit, speak and stop this war. [2:30] You, you wrote an open letter last week to Vladimir Putin and I, you know, I listened to his [2:37] reply and he, he said that Russia is advancing everywhere, all across the front line. Do you think [2:44] he is lying because he's KGB or he's given wrong information or he lives in a kind of parallel [2:51] reality? Well, how do you explain his behavior and his reply to you? It can be one of these reasons or [2:59] everything together. So, it doesn't matter the reason why he's lying. I mean, he's lying from the [3:05] very beginning. The reasons why he, the roots, why he began this war, saving Russian-speaking people [3:12] and et cetera, all this, absolutely, they lied about it. It's in the modern language or in the modern life, [3:21] it's Russian narratives or disinformation. They use it to join their society, different people, military, [3:31] pro-war or anti-war. They, they used, they wanted to join all of them and to join all of them against [3:40] the life in Ukraine, of course. Yes. Otherwise, they, it was, it was difficult for them to organize [3:47] occupation or temporary occupation. So, they don't win. They don't win in all the directions. By the way, [3:57] 12 of them, one of them is the most difficult for us in the east and most strong soldiers or [4:05] the biggest capabilities are there. That's why for us is so difficult because they move more and more [4:11] people. And when we speak about 3035 wounded and killed, yes, we speak especially, first of all, [4:18] about this direction. Because they, I mean, each day they need to show Putin the progress. [4:25] So, last year, last February, I was in the White House, the day before you met Donald Trump for that [4:31] meeting. And I asked Donald Trump whether Putin could be trusted when it came to peace negotiations. [4:36] And he said, yes. But from what you're saying, do you think that face-to-face negotiations can work [4:42] if he can't, as you suggest, be trusted? It's difficult to say, I mean, there's what can work. [4:49] I think that in any way we need to use all the opportunities to move to, to the diplomacy. I don't [4:58] want to be agree or disagree with President Trump because it, he, he has his own relations with Putin. [5:05] But I always said to him that I think that he can't trust Putin and today's Russia and all this [5:14] circle of people. And we don't know if, if somebody can trust for tomorrow's Russia. We don't know what [5:20] will be, who will be next after Putin. It depends. So, and, and I always said to President Trump that [5:29] Putin is lying. He play games with you, with White House and with American society. But God bless, [5:37] American society is strong support. I think strong support of Ukraine. [5:43] Do you worry that he is distracted by what's happening in the Middle East and Iran? We've [5:48] seen more attacks overnight. His interest has gone, it seems from the outside, from Ukraine [5:53] and Russia to the Middle East. Is that a problem for you? Of course it shifted. Of course you are right. [5:58] I agree with you totally. Of course, from the very beginning of the war in the Middle East, [6:04] especially war with Iran, they, their focus shifted to Middle East from Ukraine. It's true. [6:12] It's not about they believe that the war in Ukraine or that they can stop Putin or not. It's not about [6:21] it. I think that American interests are more in the Middle East. We see it by using their power, [6:29] their messages and giving huge support, not only to Israel. I mean, this American army, their bases, [6:37] it's understandable. So many missiles, so many weapons we never had. So we are thankful for the [6:44] things we've got from allies, but we never had such volume support. It's true. So I think this is [6:50] the answer. Yes, he shifted there, but we see it's a pity. I'm not sure that they have ceasefire. Yes, [6:59] it's permanent in some moments. It's a pity. It's a pity. Can I ask about Crimea? Because really, [7:10] what's been happening in the last few days is extraordinary. Bridge is destroyed, one of two [7:14] crossings. There's no fuel because of Ukrainian strikes. There are no trains because of Ukrainian [7:22] strikes. Do you feel that you are closer to liberating Crimea now than at any time [7:29] in recent years? And how would you do that? What is your plan for de-occupying southern Ukraine? [7:34] If you can tell us. We always share open information about the past. Okay. And we never say [7:42] about future operations. Yes. So now I can only communicate that we work on Crimean logistics, [7:53] on the deficit with petrol and diesel. It's all about critical infrastructure, which helps to… [8:03] It's a pity, but we have to accept that it helps them to militarize our Crimea. And of course, [8:12] not only on temporary occupied territories. Of course, we will work on such things on the territory of [8:17] Russia, especially military goals. First of all, military goals, and then energy goals. So, [8:25] in any way, it's our strategy to respond. Otherwise, they will not feel what has been the war. I think [8:33] the most… The victory in this war, when Russian society will recognize that the war is awful, that the [8:42] war is a tragedy not… Not for someone, somewhere, for themselves. And I think this is the momentum when [8:54] Russian society will recognize and we are very close to it. I hope that we will be successful. I don't [9:00] know. It's up to our soldiers. They are very strong. God bless that they will be strong. We will support it [9:06] each day. But I think that when Russian society will recognize it. And I think that we will see changes. [9:15] It's the same, by the way, that they can't defend their country. They can't defend totally. I mean, [9:22] they have a lot of systems of defense, but they can't defend. We have huge instruments. And they also [9:30] can't influence more politically. You see Azerbaijan, they're independent. You see Armenia, [9:39] yesterday elections. Big success, I think, for their independence. It's their choice. But it's a big [9:47] success. And I think they lost also Moldova. And of course, they don't want to lose Ukraine, [9:55] because Ukraine is the biggest and the most politically dangerous for Russia. Politically. [10:01] It's understandable. When Ukraine will be the part of Europe, it means that Putin will have [10:06] problems, internal problems, with different… Especially with Caucasus, with different peoples. [10:13] They have a lot of different peoples, different nations in Russia. And they will ask him. [10:20] The UK is amongst the countries that have supported Ukraine with defense equipment, [10:26] with defense spending. There's a discussion in the UK about how much the government should spend on [10:33] defense spending. Do you think it's important that your allies, Ukraine's allies across Europe, [10:39] continue to invest, NATO members, continue to invest in defense spending? [10:45] It's very important to invest not only in Miltec, to invest in Ukrainian Miltec, because only we have [10:54] for today. Because of this war, we have such experience. There is no price of this experience. It's [11:04] not about money. It's about people's lives. That's why we will share this priceless information and [11:11] experience with our allies. The UK is among them. And NATO is very interested in it. It's a huge [11:20] volume of information. We used to talk about whether Ukraine should be allowed to join NATO. Now it seems [11:27] it's the other way around. Can NATO join Ukraine? I think that it's in interest NATO. It's in big [11:34] interest of NATO. Yesterday we spoke a little bit about it with three countries. And they understand [11:43] that today, to have Ukraine in NATO, it's in interest of NATO. Of course, in interest of us, [11:51] like the part to be a part of a big airline and to be through our friends who helped us during the war [11:59] and to strengthen NATO. And of course, it's also in our interest. And between us, Russia still [12:09] don't, doesn't estimate it. It's also in interest of Russia. [12:13] British people have supported Ukraine and for many years have felt that it was a cause [12:18] that we should, the government should support. But they're seeing the government spend billions [12:22] of pounds on defence equipment and support for Ukraine. Yeah. [12:26] And we have seen in council buildings across the UK that used to have the Ukraine flag flying. [12:33] Reform, one of the British political parties on the right, has taken over these councils [12:37] and removed the Ukraine flags. How can you encourage them to continue supporting Ukraine? [12:44] And does it make you feel sad to hear that the flags are being taken down? [12:48] UK British people have helped us from the very beginning of this war. [12:52] So it's because of not only values, values are important, but also it's about security. [13:00] It's about security in Europe. It's in interest of UK. For example, sea drones, what we have, [13:08] it's all about defending the coasts to secure the sea. [13:13] We're securing Europe as well, isn't it? [13:15] Absolutely. And as I said, sharing the technologies which we have. UK doesn't have it. And they [13:23] recognise they don't have it. But we are on the way sharing with them a lot of different things. [13:29] And what about the flags being taken down? [13:31] I think, I hope they will put it back. So what can I say? I think that I don't want to be involved [13:38] to any political things. But I think, you know, the world is so sensitive today. I mean, there's [13:44] sometimes little, little, small mistakes can break big friendship or huge contacts, [13:52] which have been developed from the very beginning. And I think people have to not to do anything [13:58] which can break a friendship. And even if people do it, I mean, okay, so you did it. [14:04] Please, let's come back to the table. Let's speak. Let's understand each other. We need each other. [14:12] With such neighbour of Europe, with such country as Russia, and with such big challenge, with a person [14:22] who is almost 30 years managing one big country by pressure, not by economy, by pressure on his [14:31] society and pressure on Europe. And he has big influence. And he had more influence on different [14:40] past Soviet countries, past Soviet republics, which are now independent. And it's a big chance [14:46] to be really independent, really independent. So we can't lose each other with the UK. [14:53] One person that Putin sent to talk to you recently was Roman Abramovich, who used to live here. Now, [15:01] he sold Chelsea for 2.5 billion pounds. That money was supposed to go to Ukraine, and it's sitting [15:07] in a bank account. When he saw you recently in Kyiv, did you ask him for… [15:12] He didn't bring this money. He didn't bring this money. Did you ask him for the money? [15:15] No, no, no. I said it. We need your money. Did you say? I don't remember. I don't want to lie about it. [15:24] OK, but do you think the British government should do something? Because they're talking about legal [15:30] action now, because he refuses to give you… The Prime Minister told me that he's trying his best, [15:36] and it's so… And I know that our teams, our diplomatic teams speak about it. And of course, [15:43] it's a difficult moment. We need more security, especially with anti-ballistics. We're trying [15:53] through Pearl, program Pearl, buy from the United States anti-ballistics missiles. They're very [15:59] expensive. Four million, three, four million, one missile. And it's so expensive. And of course, [16:05] this money can help. And it's fair between us. Russia began this war. Why not to use Russian money? [16:12] Yeah. I mean, I'm just curious. Why did you meet him? I mean, he's a Russian oligarch. He's part of [16:20] the Russian system, secretly sent by Putin. What was your plan? [16:25] I think that there are different people around Putin. I think that half of them want to continue [16:32] this war, and half of them want to stop this war. And I think that people who are from business, [16:38] they understand that the economy is in terrible situation in Russia, and that they will lose the [16:45] economy totally. And when they will lose the economy, they will lose control, because they will not be [16:51] able to financially support their society. So it's up to them. It's their society. But of course, [16:59] we don't want them to be strong. And I think that people from business, they understand that they're [17:05] very, very close to collapse. Of course, of course, is if Western countries, if Europe, and not only [17:15] Canada, not only, and United States will not lift the sanctions, will put more pressure, [17:22] shadow fleece, etc, shadow fleece sanctions, and different if we will continue such steps, not stop, [17:29] not make stupid pauses. So if we will do this, and we, from our side, will stay strongly on the [17:37] battlefield, and we'll use our, how we say, long-range sanctions. So I think that they will be [17:47] closer to the peace. That's why I think that this businessman, he came to give the message that [17:55] what can be the infrastructure of diplomatic negotiations. And I said, so we are ready from [18:02] the very beginning, we didn't want this war, and we want to stop this war. But openly, we want to stop [18:09] you, I said, because, I mean, this is up to you. If tomorrow you will decide to stop this war, [18:14] it means that the war will stop, not only you. And I gave the message, I shared yesterday with [18:22] journalists, really, that I don't know what you spoke about in Anchorage. But truly, between us, [18:31] I understand what about they spoke, of course. But I was not there. It's a pity. And they decided to [18:37] negotiate without Ukraine, about Ukraine. I think it's a mistake, especially for the United States. [18:43] The Putin moved them not in this strong position. And I said that I think he was lying to the [18:52] President of the United States. But in any way, I said, so where really? But we will not lift, [18:58] I mean, we will not leave our territory by ourselves, by our decisions. So it's not about compromises. [19:07] You've suggested how important sanctions are as part of a tool to deal with Russia. In Britain, [19:14] unlike the rest of Europe, we're still importing jet fuel via third party from Russia, via third [19:21] party countries. We're out of step with the rest of Europe. Would you like to see Britain and Europe [19:27] aligned on sanctions? Yes, of course. Yes, of course. And but sometimes UK moved some very positive [19:35] narratives with sanctions, with shadow fleece. Sometimes they moved there, where you are very [19:40] forced in some sanctions. But now we need more. We need more and be as quick as possible, because I [19:49] think that we are very close that Russia will decide. Yes, of course, it depends on Putin that what we [19:56] sorry, decide what? Yes, to decide to move to this military half of his circle. Okay. Military decision is [20:04] to increase mobilization, to decide to move forward, to decide to fight to the end. And I am sure that [20:13] it will be the end of his country. But I think this big mistake, not because of him and etc. It doesn't [20:23] matter. I'm not thinking about him. Yeah. But it's about that if the way to the end of the war is longer, [20:30] we will lose. We will lose a lot of people. And this is the problem. And this is the shame for all [20:38] the world that we can't stop this person. He will move to military case, military way or to economic [20:45] propositions. Your letter last week, there was a kind of threat. Basically, you were warning from history [20:52] that when, you know, change comes and kind of suggesting that maybe Putin would be swept away. [20:59] Do you see that scenario that if things go badly, worse and worse for Russia, that Putin will be removed? [21:05] I think that, as I said to you, that they are losing a strong position, not only on the battlefield, [21:13] they are losing a lot of people. They are losing influence, as I said, on different countries, [21:19] including Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, as I said. And they are isolated by Europe and between us [21:29] by the United States also. So they are alone. So the question when his society will recognize that [21:37] they are alone, so they will have questions to Putin. You had the meeting last night with Mertz and [21:43] Macron and Starmer. There is a NATO summit coming up. What more now at this crucial moment would you [21:51] like from the UK? Could the UK and the other European countries do to help Ukraine? [21:56] There are not too much things which can strengthen us and move Putin to dialogue quicker. And I'm very [22:05] open with this. It's close the sky. Sorry that I'm repeating this for years. [22:11] That's true. But it's, you know, like at school, like our school teacher, she always said, you have to [22:19] each day to repeat and you will know. And eventually you'll get it. [22:22] And I hope that, yes, I'm not a bad teacher. So I'm just repeating and it's true. It's about [22:31] anti-ballistics. All are the things we learned how to produce by ourselves. [22:37] And did they say last night that they would give you that support? [22:40] They will help us with anti-ballistics. I gave them examples. And of course, UK doesn't have [22:46] anti-ballistic and anti-ballistic system. And that's why anti-ballistic missiles. [22:50] By the way, I hope that we will have European with UK together. We work on it. We need anti-ballistic [22:56] systems and UK needs. And I think this is important. So this is the first. The second point, [23:02] sanctions. Everybody was, I agree, we are on the same side with sanctions, how to make it stronger. [23:09] The third point, we need to move our army to contracts because it's very dangerous to be a [23:20] soldier. Today, we need to give them respectable salaries because they give their lives. And this [23:29] is important for me. We need additional funding for this. It's not comparable with the money what Russia [23:37] spends on the war. No, no, no. It's 10 times less. But we need this money. And I hope that friends will [23:44] help. And I hope that they will think about it and maybe we'll work more with some, I mean, maybe [23:51] with some other partners. But we need to make such decisions. It's better than ask me several times [23:59] how we can help you. It's better to help us with these to strengthen our army. This is the best way. [24:08] Someone who's helped you before is the king. And I understand you're going to go and see King Charles. [24:12] Yes. Shortly. Last time I met you, you said the king had raised Ukraine with President Trump. Is he [24:21] still helping you? Yes, but I will not tell you. What's he doing? No, no, I can't. It's up to his [24:29] majesty to answer on such questions. What about we speak with his majesty and so. But you have a good [24:37] relationship. Yeah, we have very good relationship. You know, today in the morning when I spoke by [24:42] phone with my wife, first of all, with all respect to Kir, but my wife said the best regard to his [24:49] majesty. Of course, of course. And then to prime minister, of course. So, I mean that, of course, [24:57] and Ukraine loves his majesty. And one day would you like to invite King Charles to Kyiv to meet [25:02] between us this day. Today, I want to invite him very much. I don't know from the point of security [25:10] and et cetera. Yes, of course, we want to see him in Ukraine very much. And of course, [25:16] I don't know how it will be this year, if it's possible. But of course, we want to see him. [25:22] Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Great to see you. Thank you.