WI v. Theodore Edgecomb Trial Day 5 - Cross Exam Theodore Edgecomb - Defendant

[00:00:01] Speaker 1: All right, the jury's coming in. Everyone can remain seated, please. Every time you guys come back from lunch, I sit here with bated breath, hoping no one got food poisoning from the cafeteria. Again, we made it today. Good. Let's continue. The state's going to start their cross. Mr. Huebner. [00:00:43] Speaker 2: Sir, I have a few questions for you. I'm going to try to keep them fairly quick here. To begin with, on the night in question, you were armed with Ruby Mizzle's firearm. Is that correct? [00:00:59] Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. [00:01:00] Speaker 2: And this was a firearm she bought. Is that correct? [00:01:05] Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. [00:01:06] Speaker 2: And were you legally allowed to carry a firearm that night? [00:01:14] Speaker 1: Overall, we discussed this previously. You can answer. It's a yes or no question. [00:01:21] Speaker 3: Yes, that is true, but I have accepted responsibility for those actions. [00:01:25] Speaker 2: Understood. Were you legally allowed to carry a firearm that night? Yes or no? [00:01:31] Speaker 3: I have accepted responsibilities for those actions. [00:01:35] Speaker 2: Understood. It wasn't my question. Were you legally allowed to carry a firearm that night? [00:01:41] Speaker 3: No, I did, so that went. [00:01:44] Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you, sir. He will continue to ask questions, and your attorneys will get a chance after that. Go ahead. [00:01:51] Speaker 2: So that night, on your way to go get sushi, you grab this 9mm hanggun. Is that correct? [00:02:02] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that question? [00:02:04] Speaker 2: You're going on your bike to go grab sushi, and as you're leaving, you decide to grab Ruby's 9mm hanggun. Is that correct? [00:02:12] Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct. [00:02:13] Speaker 2: Okay. And when you drove your bike over, heading in this direction, getting towards Brady Street, you actually came up those stairs that you went down. Is that correct? [00:02:29] Speaker 3: I'm not sure in which the pathway in which I took. [00:02:34] Speaker 2: And if there's video from Swing Park that shows you walking up those stairs with the bike, you don't remember how you got up there? [00:02:45] Speaker 3: Not right. No, I don't. [00:02:47] Speaker 2: Okay. And then you walked your bike past Zanus. Is that correct? [00:02:54] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. I do. [00:02:56] Speaker 2: And you walked your bike past Casablanca. Is that correct? [00:03:00] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. Before the incident. [00:03:03] Speaker 2: I understand. So just listen to my question, and it'll be quick. And then you walked your bike down to the sushi place. Is that correct? [00:03:12] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:03:13] Speaker 2: All right. Now, I want to fast forward. I'm going to come back to some portions of that. But I want to get to the portion after you have shot and killed the victim in this case. You went down the stairs. Is that correct? [00:03:29] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:03:30] Speaker 2: After you shot and killed the victim, he falls down to the stairs. He's bleeding out. You take your bike and you walk down those stairs. Is that correct? [00:03:38] Speaker 3: I reacted in self-defense. I didn't. [00:03:41] Speaker 2: That's not my question, sir. My question was, after you shot and killed Jason Clearman, did you pick up your bike and walk down those stairs? [00:03:49] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself. I reacted to protect myself from being wrong. [00:03:52] Speaker 2: Sir, then was it my question? [00:03:54] Speaker 1: Mr. Edgecombe, you need to answer the questions that are put to you. This is not a time for speeches. You're to answer Mr. Humer's questions. After he's done, your attorneys will get another chance, and then he will get the last word on recross. Answer his questions, please. [00:04:10] Speaker 2: Do you understand? [00:04:12] Speaker 1: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. [00:04:13] Speaker 2: So, after you shot and killed Jason Clearman, you picked up your bike and you walked down those stairs. Is that correct? [00:04:23] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself from being wrong. [00:04:26] Speaker 2: Sir, I need you to listen to my question. We're not talking about the man around. I'm talking about what happens after you shot and killed him. Regardless of how you want us to believe it, which is fine. They'll be able to get up here and do that. Listen to my question, please, sir. It'll go quicker for both of us. After the shooting, you pick up your bike and you walk down those stairs. Is that correct? [00:04:49] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that again? [00:04:51] Speaker 2: Sure. After you shoot and kill the victim, do you pick up your bike and walk down the stairs? [00:05:00] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself from being wrong. [00:05:03] Speaker 2: Sir, you're not answering my question. Did someone tell you just to say that whenever I say anything? [00:05:09] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:05:12] Speaker 2: Did someone tell you to just make sure you keep saying that you reacted to protect yourself when I asked a question about shooting the victim? [00:05:21] Speaker 3: No. [00:05:21] Speaker 2: Okay. So, since that is now where we're going with this, let's just concentrate on what I'm talking about. After the death, whatever the category is, and we'll get back to that later, you pick up your bike and you go down those stairs. Isn't that correct? [00:05:40] Speaker 3: I didn't learn of, you know, of a death until days later. [00:05:47] Speaker 2: Understood. Did you pick up your bike and go down the stairs? [00:05:53] Speaker 3: Can you, I don't know. [00:05:55] Speaker 2: After the incident, where, did you pick up your bike and walk down the stairs, sir? [00:06:00] Speaker 3: After the incident, yes, I picked up my bike and walked down the stairwell. [00:06:04] Speaker 2: Thank you. Did you put the gun away first? [00:06:10] Speaker 3: Yes, I did. [00:06:11] Speaker 2: And where did you, where did you put the gun? [00:06:14] Speaker 3: In my waistband. [00:06:16] Speaker 2: Okay. And when you go down those stairs, you get down to Water Street there, you end up turning right. Isn't that correct? [00:06:25] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:06:26] Speaker 2: And you stated that you went away from the scene because you thought that maybe these cars, people might be coming to get you. Isn't that correct? [00:06:34] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:06:35] Speaker 2: Now, had you gone left on Water, you could have eventually gotten to a police station. Isn't that correct? [00:06:42] Speaker 3: I'm not familiar with any police stations in the area. [00:06:45] Speaker 2: You're not familiar with District 1, which is kind of, you take Water down to State Street, you can kind of get right here. You're not aware of the huge, big, white building that says police on it? [00:06:54] Speaker 3: No. [00:06:55] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you turn right, and as you're going right, you eventually get to that red light on Humboldt. Isn't that correct? [00:07:07] Speaker 3: I can't recall right now. It's not recollecting with me. [00:07:11] Speaker 2: Okay. You saw some of the video, but you don't remember stopping at that red light and then eventually riding through the red light that we saw earlier in the trial? [00:07:19] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. I do remember. [00:07:21] Speaker 2: And there's a bar right there. Isn't that correct? [00:07:25] Speaker 3: I can't recall that, no. [00:07:27] Speaker 2: And there was a taco place on the other side with some people hanging outside. Isn't that correct? [00:07:33] Speaker 3: I can't recall that. I can't recall that at all either. [00:07:35] Speaker 2: And you didn't go into any establishment or talk to any of those people to ask for help or say you needed help from the police, did you? [00:07:44] Speaker 3: Any people where, sir? As you're fleeing the incident on your way home, I was in a state of shock. I couldn't believe what had just taken place. [00:07:53] Speaker 2: You couldn't believe you had just shot someone, correct? Can you repeat that? I'll move on. So, when you get to Humboldt, quickest way for you to get home would have been to take a left and go north on Humboldt. Isn't that correct? [00:08:14] Speaker 3: At which point? [00:08:15] Speaker 2: When you're at the, remember where we saw on the video where you're at the red light, there's Radfanks and the Bel Air Cantina, and we saw you kind of just sitting on your bike. Do you remember that location? [00:08:26] Speaker 3: I don't remember which establish I was by, but I remember, like, at some point, you know, riding past the stoplight. I don't know where exactly that was, though. [00:08:37] Speaker 2: Had that been Humboldt, if you had taken a left, you could have taken Humboldt all the way up to Locust, couldn't you? [00:08:45] Speaker 3: At which point, sir? [00:08:47] Speaker 2: And where you were stopped on Humboldt and water. [00:08:54] Speaker 3: At which point are you referring to? [00:08:56] Speaker 2: After the shooting, when you're fleeing away, and we saw you on the video, stop at the stoplight. [00:09:02] Speaker 3: I don't remember what intersection that was. [00:09:05] Speaker 2: Okay. And instead, you end up taking kind of that bike route. Is that correct? [00:09:10] Speaker 3: I do remember being on the bike pathway. [00:09:14] Speaker 2: And when you get out of the bike path and you get up on the Locust, and you end up biking to your house on Dowson. Isn't that correct? [00:09:24] Speaker 3: Yes, I do remember that. [00:09:25] Speaker 2: And if you had kept going on Locust, you could have gone to a police station. Isn't that correct? [00:09:33] Speaker 3: I was in total shock. What had just taken place, so I wasn't really thinking as far as, you know, what to do next. [00:09:42] Speaker 2: Understood. Well, you stated you were fleeing because you thought people might be out to get you, correct? [00:09:48] Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. I was in shock and in fear. [00:09:50] Speaker 2: Okay. And so, when you get out there on Locust, you could have gone straight to that police station in order to get some help, couldn't you? [00:09:58] Speaker 3: There is a police station on Locust. [00:10:00] Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Instead, you went home. Isn't that correct? [00:10:07] Speaker 3: At that point in time, I wasn't thinking to go to the police station. I wasn't, I was in a state of shock. So, to think wasn't, yeah, it wasn't. [00:10:19] Speaker 2: You went home. Isn't that correct? [00:10:21] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:10:23] Speaker 2: And when you went home, you put the bike down in the basement. Isn't that correct? [00:10:30] Speaker 3: No, that is not correct, sir. [00:10:32] Speaker 2: Someone else did. [00:10:35] Speaker 3: I don't recollect what I did with the bike. I was still in the state of shock. [00:10:39] Speaker 2: But you left the bike at your house because we see you walking. You left your house on foot. Isn't that correct? [00:10:45] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:10:47] Speaker 2: And you left your house on foot with a backpack. Isn't that correct? [00:10:51] Speaker 3: Yes. Did you still have the gun on you? At that point in time, I can't recall. [00:11:00] Speaker 2: So, you don't know if you left the gun at Ruby's or if you took it with you? [00:11:06] Speaker 3: That is correct. I'm not, I don't recall. [00:11:10] Speaker 2: And you take this backpack and you go where? [00:11:16] Speaker 3: At that point in time, I went to a friend's house. And I actually, yeah, I went to a friend's house and, you know, told them I had a family issue that was going on. I didn't want to get into details about the incident that had just taken place. [00:11:39] Speaker 2: Now, you state you went to a friend's house and told them you had a family issue. I mean, it's a little bit of a lie to your friend, right? Yes. I don't know if you're asking the question or you're making a mistake. No, I said, right. I'm sorry. You kind of lied to them, right? Can you repeat that question? All right. How about this? A couple days later, you met with certain family members who said goodbye to you as you were getting ready to leave the state, didn't you? [00:12:15] Speaker 3: No, I don't know what you're referring to or what are you? [00:12:18] Speaker 2: Do you not remember on the 24th or the 25th of September meeting with, do you know who Katrina Gordon is? [00:12:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:34] Speaker 2: Is she a cousin of yours? [00:12:35] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:12:36] Speaker 2: And is it, in fact, she and other cousins of yours met with you to say goodbye to you because you were going to leave the state for Florida? [00:12:49] Speaker 3: No, that is not true. That is not true at all. [00:12:52] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:12:55] Speaker 2: Now, how many days before you took off from Wisconsin? [00:13:02] Speaker 3: It was in the approximate around October, like mid-October. So, yeah, I can't approximate what, like maybe a week. [00:13:15] Speaker 2: About a week, you think? Was it about a week, you think? Is that, is it right? Do I have that right? [00:13:26] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:13:27] Speaker 2: Okay. Let me help you out with this. Was it before or after the police executed a search warrant at your residence looking for you? [00:13:39] Speaker 3: I had no notice of a police warrant or, yeah, I had no notice of a police warrant. [00:13:45] Speaker 2: Ruby never told you that we hit the house looking for you? [00:13:48] Speaker 3: Yes, afterwards. I didn't know prior. [00:13:51] Speaker 2: Okay. So, let me find out. When Ruby tells you about the fact that the police hit the house looking for you, had you already left? [00:14:03] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:14:06] Speaker 2: When you find out that police had executed a search warrant at your residence, did you find out while you were still in Milwaukee or while you were in some other state? [00:14:18] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that again? [00:14:20] Speaker 2: Where were you when Ruby told you that they hit the house looking for you? [00:14:23] Speaker 3: I was at a friend's house. [00:14:25] Speaker 2: Where? [00:14:26] Speaker 3: I was still in Wisconsin. So, you're still in Milwaukee? But I hadn't, go ahead. You're still in Milwaukee? Yes. [00:14:34] Speaker 2: Okay. [00:14:35] Speaker 3: So, if my recollection serves me well, yes. [00:14:39] Speaker 2: Now, when do you get the gun back? [00:14:49] Speaker 3: I don't remember if I left it or if I had it on me, you know, at this point in which year. I don't know in which time year. Yeah, I don't remember. [00:15:04] Speaker 2: So, at some point you're in a car getting to the Illinois-Indiana border and you throw it out the window. Is that correct? [00:15:13] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:15:15] Speaker 2: You knew it was evidence of the homicide, isn't that correct? [00:15:22] Speaker 3: I knew that I, as far as, like, I just didn't. I didn't, can you, can you repeat that again? [00:15:45] Speaker 2: You knew that this gun, if you were caught with it, could link you to the homicide. Isn't that correct? [00:15:55] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself. [00:15:58] Speaker 2: I didn't, I, I, I, I understand your refrain, sir. I want you, I want to concentrate on what I'm talking about. When you tossed that gun out the window, you knew it was evidence as to your shooting that you had done. Isn't that correct? [00:16:13] Speaker 3: It was a reaction, it wasn't just a shooting. [00:16:17] Speaker 2: Chris Ackham. [00:16:19] Speaker 1: Mr. Ackham. You need to answer the questions. Don't give speeches. Answer the questions that are put to you. [00:16:34] Speaker 2: You tossed the gun, knowing that it was evidence in what you had done. Isn't that correct? [00:16:43] Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. [00:16:47] Speaker 2: And you don't remember if you had this gun the entire time while you were hiding out, or if you went and got it back after leaving it somewhere? You don't remember that? [00:17:01] Speaker 3: I don't remember the point in time in which I did, you know, get it back. [00:17:06] Speaker 2: Why take it to another state to toss it out the window? [00:17:13] Speaker 3: At that point in time in which it did happen, I didn't want to be, I didn't want to have it on my possession. And, you know, have someone, a citizen or law enforcement, kill me and being justified in that. [00:17:27] Speaker 2: I understand that, but you waited two states before you were worried about that. Correct? [00:17:37] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:17:39] Speaker 2: You're stating that you got rid of the gun because you didn't want to get caught with it because if you had a gun, maybe someone would say you were armed and they might shoot you. Is that kind of where you're going with this? [00:17:49] Speaker 3: Say that. Can you repeat that one more time? [00:17:52] Speaker 2: You tossed the firearm because you were worried that if you had it on you, you could get shot due to that, right? [00:17:59] Speaker 3: That someone would be justified in killing me because they said I was the Brady Street killer, so they would be justified. [00:18:06] Speaker 2: Understood. Then why wait to Indiana? Because doesn't that fear exist in Illinois? [00:18:15] Speaker 3: It was actually on the, like, in the border between Illinois and Indiana. It was a body of water and the thought just came to me, like, you know, like spread among me to do so. [00:18:28] Speaker 2: Up until you see a body of water at the Illinois-Indiana border, the thought had occurred to you. You were holding on to that gun, no problem. Can you repeat that? You don't have this thought until you get all the way through Wisconsin, through Illinois, and to the border with Indiana? That's when you suddenly realize you got to get rid of this gun for your safety? [00:18:52] Speaker 3: It was like a spontaneous thought. [00:18:55] Speaker 2: Sir, isn't the real reason you waited to Indiana was because the chances we'd find it go out the window? [00:19:02] Speaker 3: No, that's not true. [00:19:03] Speaker 2: Matter of fact, we have only your word that the gun was even thrown there. Isn't that correct? Can you repeat that? We only have your word that that's where you threw the weapon out. Jack, check off speculation. How about this? Let me rephrase it. Was anyone else in the car with you? [00:19:22] Speaker 3: No. [00:19:24] Speaker 2: So the only person that knows where you ditched this weapon that shot Jason Clearman in the face is you. [00:19:33] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself from being armed. [00:19:36] Speaker 2: I get it, sir. The only person that knows where the gun is, is you. Isn't that correct? [00:19:44] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:19:46] Speaker 2: The only person who knows where this firearm was thrown out the window is you. Isn't that correct? When you're biking away from the scene, you could have thrown it in the river there, couldn't you? [00:20:07] Speaker 3: I was in a state of shock. It didn't cross my mind to do so. [00:20:13] Speaker 2: It didn't cross your mind until after you've been hiding out for a week and decided to flee the state and got two states away. That's when it occurred to you to throw this gun out the window. Do I have that correct? [00:20:28] Speaker 3: No, that is not correct. Okay. [00:20:31] Speaker 2: Well, let me move on. You also indicated that the reason you went on to the run into other states was because you were waiting to see if you could get legal representation. Isn't that correct? [00:20:48] Speaker 3: And to also seek funds to help with my defense. [00:20:53] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, did Ruby ever come visit you in any of these other states? [00:21:01] Speaker 3: No. [00:21:03] Speaker 2: What other states did you go to? [00:21:06] Speaker 3: Only Georgia. [00:21:12] Speaker 2: And Ruby rented you the car that you were driving. Isn't that correct? [00:21:18] Speaker 3: No, that is not correct. In fact, she already was in possession of the vehicle. So she didn't rent it for me. [00:21:25] Speaker 2: So she got you the car, though, correct? [00:21:29] Speaker 3: No, she was already in possession of the vehicle. [00:21:32] Speaker 2: And how did you get it? [00:21:34] Speaker 3: I asked her if I could use it. I needed to seek a way to get finances. [00:21:48] Speaker 2: Was that the car that you were driving when you threw the gun out the window? [00:21:54] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:21:56] Speaker 2: The car you got stopped in in Kentucky, the one Ruby rented, was that the car you drove to the Indiana border and threw the murder weapon out the window? [00:22:05] Speaker 3: I reacted to protect myself from being on my damn murder. Understood. [00:22:09] Speaker 2: When you are driving this vehicle, is it the same vehicle that Ruby rented for you that you get stopped in Kentucky with? [00:22:21] Speaker 3: I want to take a step back because you're saying that she rented the vehicle for me. It wasn't rented for me. [00:22:27] Speaker 2: Is it the same car? Are both cars the same car? [00:22:37] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that question? Can you repeat that question? You said like three different things just now. [00:22:41] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:22:42] Speaker 2: Sorry, I'll rephrase the question, Judge. [00:22:45] Speaker 1: Well, the defendant does not ask questions. He answers questions. [00:22:48] Speaker ?: That's fine. [00:22:49] Speaker 1: For you and for his own attorneys, he will not ask any further questions in this court. Go ahead. [00:22:56] Speaker 2: Sir, the car you drove to Indiana, the one where the gun goes out the window, is that the same car you got stopped in Kentucky driving? [00:23:05] Speaker 3: Yes, that is true. Okay. [00:23:07] Speaker 2: And so, Ruby gave you that car. Isn't that correct? [00:23:13] Speaker 3: Yes, I borrowed that car from her. [00:23:15] Speaker 2: And did you tell her you were going to be leaving the state? [00:23:20] Speaker 3: I told her that I would, you know, need to go get funds. I didn't tell her where I was headed. [00:23:27] Speaker 2: Okay. And so, she gives you a car. You're intending to leave the state. I want to make sure I have that right. All of this happens after you find out the Milwaukee Police Department has just hit your house looking for you. Isn't that correct? [00:23:45] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:23:47] Speaker 2: Okay. So, you get the car from Ruby, and you leave the state, and you ditch the gun out the window. That all happens after the search warrant at your house, doesn't it? [00:24:00] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that one more time? [00:24:02] Speaker 2: Sir, you got to understand this. You just told us that you were in Milwaukee when you found out the search warrant happened at your residence, right? Yes. Okay. So, after you find out the search warrant happened at your residence, is that when you decided to flee the state? [00:24:23] Speaker 3: No, that's not true. [00:24:25] Speaker 2: Okay. So, is that when you decided to get out of the state with the gun and make sure we'd never find it? [00:24:37] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? Because you... [00:24:39] Speaker 2: Sir, it's the same question. Is that, once you found out that we hit your house looking for you, is that when you decided to borrow your girlfriend's rented car, drive out of the state, and toss the gun out the window? Yes or no? Is that when you did it? [00:24:55] Speaker 3: No. [00:24:56] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, you stated that you had to leave the state to buy yourself time to get legal representation, right? Yes. But you had two lawyers at that time, didn't you? [00:25:14] Speaker 3: At which particular time? [00:25:16] Speaker 2: At the moment of the shooting, the moment you fled the state, you had two lawyers. [00:25:26] Speaker 3: Didn't you? Not right. I don't know. [00:25:36] Speaker 2: Well, you had one case with an attorney and a keys, didn't you? [00:25:41] Speaker 4: Objection, your sidebar. [00:25:56] Speaker ?: You had a case with an Anna keys. [00:26:13] Speaker 2: That's a-n-n-a-k-e-e-s. Isn't that correct? [00:26:29] Speaker 3: I do recall that name. [00:26:31] Speaker 2: Okay. And in fact, she had a court appearance where she was waiting on you on October 19th of 2020. Do you remember that? [00:26:42] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:26:42] Speaker 2: And you didn't show for it, did you? [00:26:44] Speaker 3: No. [00:26:45] Speaker 2: Because you were on the run in another state. Isn't that correct? [00:26:48] Speaker 3: At that point in time, I don't remember or recall where I was at that exact date. [00:26:54] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:26:56] Speaker 2: Well, once you left the state of Wisconsin, did you come back ever? [00:27:05] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:27:06] Speaker 2: At which particular time? Anytime. Anytime between the moment Jason Clearman dies and Kentucky finds you? [00:27:27] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:27:28] Speaker 2: How many times? [00:27:34] Speaker 3: Only that I recall, it was only, what, twice? [00:27:40] Speaker 2: Didn't make your court appearance when you came back, though, did you? [00:27:43] Speaker 3: They were all via Zoom. None were in person. [00:27:47] Speaker 2: That doesn't change the fact you didn't show up, does it? [00:27:51] Speaker 3: I mean, I was trying to understand your question. Understood. [00:27:55] Speaker 2: Did you show up for your court date? [00:27:58] Speaker 3: Those court dates, no. [00:28:03] Speaker 2: You also had another attorney on another case, a Megan Kaldunski. I apologize if I mispronounced it. K-A-L-D-U-N-S-K-I. You had her, too, on another case, didn't you? [00:28:15] Speaker 3: I'm not sure if these lawyers were even criminal defense lawyers. [00:28:20] Speaker 2: Sign up. [00:28:28] Speaker ?: You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. You had her, too, on another case. [00:29:05] Speaker 2: Did you just state that you don't believe that those two witnesses or that those two lawyers were criminal defense attorneys? [00:29:22] Speaker 3: Yes. To my knowledge, I didn't know. [00:29:24] Speaker 2: Sir, didn't they represent you on two open criminal cases? [00:29:31] Speaker 3: In matters, like, I'm not knowledgeable if, you know, as far as if, you know, like, how they, how can I say, how they differ in different matters. [00:29:47] Speaker 2: You had two open cases in criminal court with court dates, and these were your attorneys, correct? [00:29:57] Speaker 3: I'm trying to, because I don't know if they handle matters in which, you know, are, you know, to the extremities in which they handle different matters. [00:30:09] Speaker 2: Understood. But that's different than saying you didn't know they were a criminal defense attorney. I mean, they represented you in criminal cases, correct? These two attorneys were representing you in two open criminal cases, weren't they? [00:30:27] Speaker 3: That's right. I don't understand the degree, even though the matters that I, you know, as far as what you're referring to, as far as with me. [00:30:35] Speaker 2: You don't know the two cases I'm referring to? No. [00:30:39] Speaker 3: Yes, he opened the door. [00:30:40] Speaker 1: And we just discussed this off the record. The testimony opens the door to continued cross-examination. [00:30:50] Speaker 2: Sir, you had. So the case with Anna Keys in Waukesha, you realize that was a criminal case? Is that correct? [00:31:09] Speaker 3: I didn't know if they would be able to represent me, so I didn't deem them, deem her, or even to, you know, let her know of, you know, the matters at hand because of the extremity of it. So I wasn't knowledgeable in how to acquire, you know, as far as, I didn't even know if they were qualified in the matters that were at hand, so. [00:31:39] Speaker 2: Did you call them? [00:31:41] Speaker 3: I called different attorneys. [00:31:43] Speaker 2: Wasn't my question. Did you call the two attorneys you had in open criminal cases in Wisconsin? [00:31:49] Speaker 3: Not at the time I didn't. [00:31:51] Speaker 2: At any time? [00:31:56] Speaker 3: There were times when they were contacted due to the matters that were hand involved in those situations. [00:32:01] Speaker 2: And you ended up, just so we're clear, in the Waukesha matter, you didn't show up for your Zoom October 19, 2020 hearing. Is that correct? [00:32:14] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that for me? [00:32:16] Speaker 2: Sure. Your case with Anna Keys, you were supposed to be on Zoom court, as you stated, on October 19, 2020, and you didn't show up, did you? No. And your case in Milwaukee with Megan Koldunsky, you had a date in January of 2021, you didn't show up for that one either, did you? [00:32:42] Speaker ?: No. As I recollect, no. Now, sir, when you finally get pulled over, this is after you dyed your hair in an attempt to not appear to be yourself. Is that correct? [00:32:44] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:32:45] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:32:45] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:32:47] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:32:58] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:02] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:05] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:11] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:12] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:20] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:26] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:27] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:29] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:35] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:36] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:39] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:44] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:47] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:49] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:53] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:57] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:59] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:33:59] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:01] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:08] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:10] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:13] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:14] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:14] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:18] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:22] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:23] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:25] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:29] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:31] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:35] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:40] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:41] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:45] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:47] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:51] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:34:54] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:01] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:03] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:04] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:12] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:19] Speaker ?: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:21] Speaker 3: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:23] Speaker 2: I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. I don't want to be taken at the cut. [00:35:32] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:35:35] Speaker 2: And you acted as though you were unaware of what had happened in Milwaukee. Isn't that correct? [00:35:41] Speaker 3: I didn't expound because I didn't have legal representation. [00:35:45] Speaker 2: Sir, you stated what happened in Milwaukee, right? [00:35:51] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:35:54] Speaker 2: So you were acting as though you were unaware of what had happened in Milwaukee. Isn't that correct? [00:36:00] Speaker 3: I didn't expound on it. [00:36:02] Speaker 2: Sir, it's not my question. My question was, were you acting as though you did not know what happened in Milwaukee? [00:36:09] Speaker 3: No, that's not correct. Okay. [00:36:14] Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I understand this here. You fled from the scene, correct? [00:36:24] Speaker 3: From? [00:36:25] Speaker 2: Homicide scene. You fled from the scene. Isn't that correct? [00:36:28] Speaker ?: Yes or no, sir? [00:36:29] Speaker 3: I was only able to get away from there and do it. [00:36:44] Speaker 2: So you fled from that area. Isn't that correct? [00:36:47] Speaker 3: Yes, I did leave from that scene. [00:36:49] Speaker 2: Thank you. And then you fled from the scene. Isn't that correct? Are you? [00:36:54] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:36:55] Speaker 2: And then you ditched the weapon that would have linked you to that shooting. Isn't that correct? [00:37:02] Speaker 3: Yes. Can I ask you? [00:37:04] Speaker 2: Overall. You can answer it. Can you repeat that? You ditched the weapon that would have linked you to that shooting. Isn't that correct? I didn't want to be. Sir, you ditched the weapon that would have linked you to the shooting. Yes or no? [00:37:23] Speaker 3: Can you like expound on ditch? No, sir. [00:37:29] Speaker 2: That's the question. Did you or did you not throw the weapon that would have linked you to this homicide out the window? [00:37:35] Speaker 3: I reacted to, you know, to prevent myself from being harmed. [00:37:41] Speaker 2: I understand that, sir. I understand the refrain that you have rehearsed. I want to concentrate here on the fact that after you left the scene and then left the state and then ditched the gun and then lied to a Kentucky trooper. That's when you decided to say what happened in Milwaukee when the police asked you. Isn't that correct? [00:38:05] Speaker 3: I just didn't expound on them questioning me because I didn't have legal representation. [00:38:11] Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you had two lawyers. You just decided not to go to them. Isn't that correct? [00:38:18] Speaker 3: In the matter that was at hand. Okay. [00:38:23] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, I want to talk about this incident. This incident that finally, after all of that, you're now here for. You indicated you're going to get sushi. Correct? [00:38:41] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:38:42] Speaker 2: Okay. And that restaurant is on the north side of Brady. Isn't that correct? Yes. And then you decide to go to Frozone. Isn't that correct? [00:38:54] Speaker 3: I never made it to Frozone. [00:38:56] Speaker 2: Wasn't my question. You decided to go to Frozone. Isn't that correct? Yes. Okay. And you got on your bicycle at that moment, didn't you? [00:39:06] Speaker 3: At which point? [00:39:08] Speaker 2: When you leave the area of where the sushi place is to go to Frozone. Yes. [00:39:13] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:39:14] Speaker 2: And you are going to head eastbound on Brady? [00:39:19] Speaker 3: To head to Frozone, yes. [00:39:21] Speaker 2: Okay. And you end up not going that way, do you? [00:39:26] Speaker 3: Not going to Frozone? Yes. Yes. I never made it to Frozone. [00:39:31] Speaker 2: You turn around. Isn't that correct? [00:39:33] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:39:34] Speaker 2: And you're stating that as you're heading back westbound, that's when this incident happens, according to you. [00:39:41] Speaker 3: Yes. That is correct. Okay. [00:39:44] Speaker 2: Now, the car that you're stating, like knocked you and forced you onto another car. Was that coming at you or coming from behind you? [00:39:59] Speaker 3: They were actually more on the side. Okay. [00:40:03] Speaker 2: Were they heading the same way as you or are they heading towards you? [00:40:06] Speaker 3: The same direction. [00:40:07] Speaker 2: Okay. So they were behind you and kind of going past you, according to you? [00:40:11] Speaker 3: Yes. Okay. [00:40:13] Speaker 2: And you had moved, I just want to be very clear, where was this when this happened, according to you? [00:40:23] Speaker 3: It was, I can't pinpoint the exact location, but I know that it was like maybe two blocks away from Tynomite. Okay. [00:40:34] Speaker 2: So we're going to. [00:40:35] Speaker 3: Two blocks east. Two blocks east of Tynomite? [00:40:37] Speaker 2: Yes. Okay. So if we're going, and I just want to have this, Your Honor, I'm going to use Defense Exhibit 5. Fine. If we're looking at Tynomite and we see here is Tynomite on Brady, is that correct? [00:40:57] Speaker 3: That's what it appears on the map. Okay. [00:41:01] Speaker 2: You're saying you think you went two blocks, this happens two blocks east? So like towards the right as we're looking at this? [00:41:09] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:41:10] Speaker 2: Okay. So it doesn't happen anywhere around this Gloriosos, right? Which is across the street from Tynomite, according to you. [00:41:18] Speaker 3: It's an approximate location. I can't pinpoint exactly where it took place. [00:41:23] Speaker 2: It's kind of hard to pick an exact location of where like something happens on the street, right? You don't know exactly where this happened, do you? [00:41:33] Speaker 3: I know from as far as when I, you know, my pace as far as like where I was on my bike. I can't, I know as far as like paces wise, but I know it had to be like roughly like, that's why I said an approximate, like two blocks away. Two blocks away. [00:41:50] Speaker 2: So two blocks, this is Tynomite on Astor. One block would be Humboldt. You think it's possibly even further east than that? Is that what you're saying? [00:41:58] Speaker 3: That's why I said approximate. I've never made it to Humboldt. [00:42:03] Speaker 2: So it's further down east from this intersection with Tynomite. Do I have that right? Yes. [00:42:09] Speaker 3: Okay. [00:42:16] Speaker 2: Now, sir, you indicated that after this incident, you were pretty upset, weren't you? [00:42:32] Speaker 3: Which incident in particular? [00:42:34] Speaker 2: What we just talked about, where you flip up on the car hood according to you. Yes. Okay. You were angry, correct? [00:42:45] Speaker 3: I was a bit infuriated, yes. [00:42:49] Speaker 2: Okay. In fact, your words on direct were, "I can't let them get away." Right? [00:43:02] Speaker 3: I don't recall saying that, my exact words. [00:43:06] Speaker 2: You don't remember stating that as they're going on, you thought, "I can't let them get away." [00:43:13] Speaker 3: Yes. So you did say that. [00:43:15] Speaker 2: That's what your thought was, right? You had just been wrong in your mind, and you were going to go after them because you could not allow them to get away. Correct? Yes. Okay. And I said that. Well, thank you, sir. These guys, they're great attorneys, they're going to come back and ask you all that stuff. I just need the answer to my question. Okay? So, you went after them, right? [00:43:39] Speaker 3: I tried to catch up with them. I didn't go after them. [00:43:44] Speaker 2: What's the difference? [00:43:47] Speaker 3: I just tried to catch up, hey, like, to meet up with them. I didn't, like, go after them to, like... [00:43:56] Speaker ?: You... [00:43:57] Speaker 2: They're ahead of you. You can't let them get away. You're infuriated. You bike after them. Correct? [00:44:06] Speaker 3: To catch up with them. [00:44:08] Speaker 2: Armed with a gun, right? [00:44:15] Speaker 3: Are you asking the question? Yeah. [00:44:17] Speaker 2: Yeah. Armed with a gun, right? You got a gun. [00:44:20] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:44:21] Speaker 2: Okay. Now, at that moment, you've got to go past the sushi place according to what you've just told us, right? Yes. [00:44:33] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:44:34] Speaker 2: So, this place where you've bought the food, where, according to you, you're getting the food for daddy-daughter date night, you're going right past that to get at these two people, right? [00:44:47] Speaker ?: Yes. That is true. Okay. [00:44:50] Speaker 2: Because you did not want to let them get away with what they had just done saying these words to you. [00:44:59] Speaker ?: Correct? [00:45:00] Speaker 3: Wanted to see if they even acknowledged that they had hit me. [00:45:08] Speaker 2: Sir, when you went up there, you didn't even bring up the hitting. You just said, "Were you talking to me?" Correct? [00:45:16] Speaker 3: As I was... Can you say that again? [00:45:26] Speaker 2: You never mentioned this alleged getting hit by your bike. You drove up to them and said, "Were you talking to me?" Correct? [00:45:36] Speaker ?: Yes. [00:45:37] Speaker 3: And I was also finishing the statement, but... Thank you. [00:45:40] Speaker 2: And then, when he said he was talking to you, you punched him, right? Yes. [00:45:45] Speaker ?: Okay. [00:45:46] Speaker 3: Now... [00:45:47] Speaker 2: I've accepted... Thank you very much, sir. So then, you punched this guy right in the face and you bike off, right? [00:46:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:46:01] Speaker 2: Back going to the stairs and you'd come up on your way from home, correct? [00:46:06] Speaker 3: I don't recall which pathway I took to get to Brady Street if it was up the stairs or the ramp. [00:46:12] Speaker 2: Sir, did it ever occur to you that the man you just punched in the face might feel the same way that you had felt just moments before? That he couldn't let you get away? That he wanted to talk to you or confront you about what happened? [00:46:27] Speaker 1: It was compound, I guess. Yeah, it was. You can break it up. [00:46:30] Speaker 2: Did it ever occur to you that a man you just punched in the face might react the same way you had moments before? [00:46:40] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:46:42] Speaker 2: Did it ever occur to you that the man you had just punched in the face might react the same way you had moments before punching you in the face? That was a bad question. Let me do this again. You didn't want to let him get away, right? You stated you didn't want to let these two people get away, correct? [00:47:07] Speaker 3: Yes, that's correct. [00:47:10] Speaker 2: And then that guy followed you because he didn't want to let you get away. [00:47:15] Speaker 3: They actually text me with a vehicle. [00:47:18] Speaker 2: Yeah. They pulled up and stopped and got out of the car. So here's my question, sir. Do you think you have the right to chase after someone that has wronged you, but someone does not have the right to do that to you when you punch them? [00:47:37] Speaker 3: I was getting chased down with a vehicle. [00:47:40] Speaker 2: One more question, sir. Do you believe it is okay for you to chase after someone and punch them, but someone can't do the same thing to you? [00:47:48] Speaker 3: I reacted to being hit. [00:47:51] Speaker 2: You reacted to being hit. So that's what happened. A guy, you say you get hit, you get thrown up on the car, your reaction is to go after him, punch him in the face one time, right? Just your reaction, correct? [00:48:08] Speaker 3: Can you repeat that? [00:48:09] Speaker 2: Your reaction to what you say occurred on this car was to chase after him, not let him get away, and punch him in the face, correct? [00:48:22] Speaker 3: No, that's not what I'm saying. [00:48:24] Speaker 2: Now, sir, you punch this man, and then he comes up and he gets in a boxing stance with you, isn't that correct? [00:48:36] Speaker 3: I didn't see him get in the boxer stance, I just seen him raise his hands up from his midsection, and it looked as though he was drawn up with a weapon, and it appeared that it was an item in his hand. [00:48:47] Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it appeared that it was what? [00:48:49] Speaker 3: It appeared that there was something in his hand. [00:48:51] Speaker 2: Okay, you said you saw him coming up from his midsection, both hands, and you think he has something in his hands? [00:49:00] Speaker 3: It appeared that there was an item. I wasn't just fixated on that item because there were two other threats behind him as well. [00:49:07] Speaker 2: Understood. I want you to ask my question. He gets into that boxing stance. The defense council asked you about it. You remembered it when he asked you. I want you to remember it when I asked you. Did he get into a boxing stance? [00:49:18] Speaker 3: It didn't appear as though it was a boxing stance. I just seen him draw from his midsection. [00:49:23] Speaker 2: And just so we're clear, you've done this now three times, and all three times you've done it, you've had your hands clenched together in fists. [00:49:30] Speaker 3: And it appeared that he had an item in his hand, and he lunged towards me. [00:49:34] Speaker 2: He had an item in your hand. I understand you've got that. I want to stay right here. He's got his hands up. You can see his hands, right? What did the item look like, according to you? [00:49:43] Speaker 3: It all happened so quick. I couldn't, I wasn't fixated on the item. [00:49:48] Speaker 2: So, you don't know what it was? [00:49:50] Speaker 3: It was dark in that landing area, so I couldn't. [00:49:53] Speaker 2: Again, you don't know what it was? No. [00:49:56] Speaker 3: Overruled. [00:49:57] Speaker 2: You don't know what it was, do you? [00:50:00] Speaker 3: I can't, you know, say or assume what the item was in his hand. [00:50:06] Speaker ?: Agreed. [00:50:07] Speaker 2: You shouldn't assume. So, you think there was an item in his hand, but you can't even say there definitely was one, can you? Yes. [00:50:15] Speaker 3: It appeared that he had an item in his hand. Exactly. [00:50:18] Speaker 2: It appeared. But you don't know for certain, do you? I wasn't fixated. [00:50:22] Speaker 3: It was two other threats behind him. He was just the imminent direct threat. Thank you. [00:50:28] Speaker 2: Now, he was the imminent direct threat, correct? Yes. [00:50:33] Speaker 3: All right. [00:50:34] Speaker 2: Now, did you ever think that maybe he was just going to punch you after you punched him? No. Okay. Now, if I'm understanding this, you're stating that you pulled the firearm out and you had it kind of down? [00:51:00] Speaker 3: Yes. [00:51:01] Speaker 2: Were you pointing it at him? [00:51:03] Speaker 3: No, I didn't have it pointed, it was just pointed down. It was pointed down? [00:51:07] Speaker 2: Yes. Towards the floor? Yes. [00:51:11] Speaker 3: When he lunged forward, that's when I stepped back. And there was a reaction as far as, like, the gun just went off as far as when I stepped back. The gun goes off, pointed down. As he lunged forward. [00:51:23] Speaker 2: If the gun goes off, pointed down, how does Mr. Clearman get one in his eyebrow with only a slightly upward trajectory? [00:51:33] Speaker 3: His head, he was, like, lunging towards me like he was going to spear me or tackle me. [00:51:38] Speaker 2: And as I stepped back. When you stepped back, did you pull the gun up? Yes. Jackson, he's still trying to answer the question. [00:51:43] Speaker 1: Overall, it's crossing. [00:51:45] Speaker 2: When you stepped back, did you pull the gun up? [00:51:48] Speaker 3: At that moment, it did go up because I stepped back, it was a reaction there. [00:51:55] Speaker 2: Just a reaction. So you're stating you didn't mean to shoot him? [00:51:58] Speaker 3: There was no intent there, no. Total accident, he got shot. Yes, there was no intent there. Thank you very much. [00:52:07] Speaker 2: Now, if three other, actually strike that, if four other people who saw this, say they saw your hand go up and shoot him and he just drops, that's just not what happened. I don't know if that was a question. [00:52:23] Speaker ?: Yeah, it is. Can you repeat it? [00:52:25] Speaker 2: If four other people see your hand go up with a gun in it and shoot him, shoot the victim, you're telling us that that's not what happened. Do I have that correct? [00:52:40] Speaker 3: Yes, that is correct. [00:52:41] Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. [00:52:42] Speaker 3: There weren't four other people in the stairwell, in the dark stairwell. Hang on, hang on. [00:52:50] Speaker 1: Please, there has to be a question in front of you. You don't get to make speeches, please. [00:52:57] Speaker 3: Go ahead. [00:53:12] Speaker 2: What happened to the clothes you were wearing that day? [00:53:40] Speaker 3: I'm not sure, sir. [00:53:46] Speaker 2: Did you get rid of him like you did the gun? [00:53:50] Speaker 3: I changed that day. [00:53:53] Speaker 2: Where did you change? [00:53:56] Speaker 3: In the house. In your house? In the house in which I was staying, yes, at the endowment. [00:54:08] Speaker 2: So if the video looks like you're still wearing the same clothes, just with a backpack, do you remember changing that? [00:54:16] Speaker 3: To my recollection, yes. One moment, Judge. [00:54:19] Speaker ?: One moment, Judge. One moment, Judge. One moment, Judge. One moment, Judge. [00:54:30] Speaker 2: One moment, Judge. If police had never figured out you were the shooter that day, would you ever have turned [00:55:01] Speaker 3: yourself in? I was making steps to get legal counsel to turn myself in. So it was always the goal to turn myself in. But I just wasn't sure if anyone would believe the narrative of a white man and his wife hunting me down and trying to cause harm to me. [00:55:21] Speaker 2: That wasn't my question. My question was this. If the police had not been told by people associated with your family that you were the shooter that night, were you ever going to turn yourself in? [00:55:36] Speaker 3: I was always going to, that was, you know, the goal to turn myself in. But I just needed [00:55:43] Speaker 2: legal representation. If they had never identified you as the shooter, your goal was to come in and be like, yep, I'm that unknown person that shot Jason Clearman. Is that what you're telling [00:55:55] Speaker 3: about this? With legal representation. Okay. But only after you got rid of the gun. Is that a question? Yeah. Can you repeat it? It was only after you were going to get rid of the gun. Isn't that correct? It was only, that's a statement. Yeah. Were you, yes. Answer the question, [00:56:17] Speaker 2: sir. You were going to turn yourself in, but only after you got rid of the gun. Correct? [00:56:22] Speaker 3: No, that's not true. I just, I only did that so that it wouldn't be on my person. Thank you very [00:56:28] Speaker 2: much, sir. Thank you. Oh, because you didn't want it on your person, right? You didn't want the, you didn't want the weapon that killed Jason Clearman and could definitively connect you to this incident to be caught on you. Isn't that correct? I just reacted to protect myself from being on. Nothing else. Thank you. [00:57:05] Speaker 4: Judge, I need to make a record of a few things. I would like a five minute break. Say that again. Need to place some things on the record. Could I ask for a break? [00:57:21] Speaker 1: Well, I'm not sure what needs to go on the record. We can potentially discuss that. I'll take a short break for the jury. Ten minutes. Follow my bailiffs out, please. Jury's out, brief recess, off the record. [00:58:04] Speaker ?: Bye.