Why Did the Biggest Solar Company of the 2000s Collapse?

[00:00:00] Sue Neal: It's a huge pity that we haven't been more innovative and developed smart grids around Australia to actually be able to share the collective benefits more of community solar systems. You still have the inbuilt problems with the grid when demand's high and they send you a message saying you turn off your air conditioning, give you $5. This is so cumbersome. If we had a smart grid that could all happen automatically. [00:00:25] Speaker 2: Presented by Your Energy Answers. Welcome to the YA podcast. I actually really looked forward to this particular podcast. And if I do look a bit tired, I actually just have to put a dog down. I'm a little bit kind of didn't sleep that well. But hopefully my enthusiasm for my guest today is keeping me going. And 2006, I work in the Children's Hospital. And you think that's a great job. You know, I'm working in the marketing department. But the problem is you work actually with very sick kids because they stay for a long time. So you use them in stories and then some of them pass away and you start getting kids yourself and you go, oh, this is a tough gig, but I want to have something meaningful. So I looked around in the paper and there was a job for a marketing manager. Well, I think it was just an officer junior thing in the renewable industry. And I'm going, oh, that's something new. I put my hand up, knew nothing about it. But there was nobody else who knew anything about it. So my competition was everybody else who knew nothing. And my personality somehow shone through and I ended up with the gig. And there was a person that was kind of like my semi-boss because she headed the sales area. And that person was Sue Neal. And Sue was one of the first person that really was in the renewable industry as a woman. Because we really nowadays, even still now, I have so many blokes all in the solar battery space and all that. But you were really a pioneer already in that area. So I just explained how I fell into being the first marketing guy in solar and batteries. How did you fall into that job? [00:02:03] Sue Neal: Well, my great grandfather had worked in the industry. He and my grandfather were both engineers and in those days for remote power, which we now like to think is maybe, you know, just sort of local. In those days, if you lived in the bush, you had very few options for power, but you needed it, obviously. So what you could do was you could actually get a generating set, a petrol-driven generating set, you could get a petrol-driven generating set, you could get a petrol stove, you could get gas lighting, there weren't many options and those were they. And my family's company sold generating sets. My grandfather worked closely with Lloyd Dunn, who produced the Dunn light generators and together, my grandfather and Lloyd Dunn built the wind light, the wind generator that was then sold around Australia and then internationally. And so there was this sort of, if you like, step-by-step introduction of power systems to remote areas, but you've got to remember for them, there was no alternative. So it just basically came down to cost. It wasn't like they were weighing up whether they'd get grid power or remote power. So that was where it all started. And then the need for generating sets increased. So the business improved. The wind turbines became popular. People now accepted that you'd have, they were basically 110 volt DC systems. And we used sensory batteries and Honeywell inverters, which were very, very basic, if you like. So I moved into the business in 80, 86, 85. What were you doing before that? I mean, I worked, I worked for a minerals, a Belgian mining company, base metals. And I was the bilingual office manager there because they were French speaking. So I'd done maths and modern languages. So that was where that came from. So the maths obviously saw me very well for my renewables career. And my languages allowed me to swear at people in the industry without them knowing what I was saying. So it worked very well. So then I started dabbling in quirks as it was then. And we were contacted by a very entertaining gentleman from America, who was wanting to bring into Australia solar modules manufactured by ARCO, which was the Atlantic Richfield Oil Company, another fossil fuels company involved in solar manufacture. So that piqued my interest and I started promoting the product and that became popular. And so slowly that part of the business grew. We were able to bring in a plethora of balance of system equipment as available at that time, which is very rudimentary. And then the business started growing. [00:05:10] Speaker 2: And I mean, BP Solar started having manufacturing in Australia. So I know that you were BP Solar module distributor, weren't you? [00:05:21] Sue Neal: many years. And I must say that the industry benefited greatly from having companies like BP Solar and SolarX in the industry because they provided a structure, if you like, for their resellers, which wouldn't have existed if people were just buying from wherever they wanted to buy. And also it meant that those manufacturers brought in, again, a very good cross-section of balancer system components, which were very, very necessary with off-grid systems. You needed batteries, regulators, inverter charges, et cetera. [00:05:56] Speaker 2: Because the majority of the early solar industry, let's talk the 80s, would have been mainly off-grid, wouldn't it? [00:06:03] Sue Neal: Yes, it was. And that was partly then subsidized, if you like, by the federal government because if you were wanting to get power connected and you were removed from the grid, the networks would offer you the deal of a lifetime, only $10,000 a kilometer for them to connect you to their power grid. And a lot of people couldn't see the value. I mean, a lot of them weren't that far away from the grid. They could actually almost touch the post, but it was going to cost them a lot of money. So then they could actually see the financial value in getting a standalone power system. They were obviously more problematic to design because you were trying to meet the loads of the user and making sure that the batteries were going to actually last a reasonable lifetime, et cetera, et cetera. But there were a lot of people who got off-grid systems. And something that probably most people aren't aware of is that there were various suburbs within the Sydney framework, if you like, like Barara waters that didn't have mains power. So we had a lot of off-grid systems just in Barara waters. And you think, well, that's ridiculous. But it was ridiculous. We're talking 1980s still, didn't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So... [00:07:22] Speaker 2: But when you say systems, and this is going to get people to watch this start to smile, what was the size of a battery and the size of the solar? [00:07:30] Sue Neal: You mean physically? [00:07:31] Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, was it one and a half kilowatt? Was it three? What was the size for a home that they had to kind of be frugal with the electricity? [00:07:38] Sue Neal: Well, you basically had to get a load profile from the user. And once you had that, you could then start sizing the system. So you'd look at what their peak loadings were. And then you'd look at what their continuous power requirements were. You had to size the batteries so that they would provide five days holdover in the event of bad weather, et cetera. [00:07:58] Speaker 2: Would most of them have a generator with it or they were just going more? [00:08:02] Sue Neal: The Optimus didn't. But for a lot of people with small children, et cetera, or for business use, they obviously had to have a generator. But then there were, I suppose, teething issues with the generator product itself because you needed one that would change over automatically from your batteries to the generator. [00:08:23] Speaker 2: And if they don't use it for a long time, the petrol that goes crappy? [00:08:26] Sue Neal: Yeah. So there were sort of maintenance and operational issues associated with those systems. But at the end of the day, essentially they worked, but they had to be sized and installed [00:08:36] Speaker ?: properly. [00:08:36] Speaker 2: And you were the person that sized and installed it. So their livelihood and comfort really defended on you doing your math properly. [00:08:44] Sue Neal: That's right. And my shoulders were very heavy. I was carrying the guilt if it didn't. And also, it meant that people had to learn about their power system. They had to know if they looked at the regulator what it was telling them. It wasn't just set and forget, was it? No, no, no, no, no, no. As much as they would like it to be. As much as the sales guys told them. Exactly. Not me, though. But others, yes. [00:09:12] Speaker 2: Okay. So you're right into it. It's a small niche industry. I mean, but you hadn't answered, like what, let's say it's an average three people household and they got not too much consumption. Maybe seven, eight kilowatt hours a day. They were, you know, in those days, they didn't all run air cons and all of this stuff. A lot of their houses electricity use was, you know, the washing machine occasionally, the lights. What else? [00:09:37] Sue Neal: Refrigeration was always a major component. [00:09:40] Speaker 2: Yes, yes. And some people actually then got carer fridges and stuff like that in order to get their load down. But what was the size? I'm just, you know, nowadays installers, 10, 12, 15 kilowatts for a normal house. They just smack it on and don't think about it. But where do we actually come size-wise from? [00:09:57] Sue Neal: In those days, well, you'd look at a load. And so most people, if your people said, well, what's the range of an average house in those days? This is without, you know, sort of five large screen TVs, et cetera, et cetera. They would have been between 20 and 30 kilowatt hours a day. [00:10:15] Speaker 2: Hmm. So you would still therefore need at least five, six kilowatts of solar. And some panels were fifteen hundred bucks. And they were only 160 watts. [00:10:28] Sue Neal: Yeah. So when the rebate came in for RAPs, Remote Area Power Supply Systems, you're looking at maybe thirty, forty thousand dollars for the system. And then you would get sixteen thousand dollars back. But that system had to be designed and installed and signed off by accredited people. So it obviously lent itself to some exploitation from the less scrupulous. But at the end of the day, it meant a lot of people got power systems who normally wouldn't have been able to afford them. And they got an adequate power system. This is what we argued with the government all along. It's no good giving them a little bit of money because then you're not giving them a real power system. You're just giving them a drop in the ocean. And to their credit, they accepted that. [00:11:16] Speaker 2: And was that more the liberal or the labor government or both? [00:11:20] Sue Neal: It was liberal at that stage. Oh, interesting. Because... [00:11:23] Speaker 2: I suppose rural is more liberal. So they wanted to look after their constituencies, maybe? [00:11:30] Sue Neal: Yes. And there was sort of the movement that... I think the appropriation bills in 1997-99, there was money given to greenhouse abatement programs. And that money then flowed through to some of the renewables. At that stage, we were able to talk to Canberra. And interestingly, there were also in the Department of Energy, there were engineers who actually knew what we were talking about. And so they were able to carry the message as well. So they were... [00:12:06] Speaker 2: You sounded very surprised that you found a bureaucrat who knew what he was talking about. [00:12:10] Sue Neal: Well, to the best of my knowledge, they're no longer there. Right. They, you know, sort of specialist expertise might not be as valuable now. But yes, so that made a big difference as well. [00:12:23] Speaker 2: Wow. Okay. So let's arrive in the early 2000s, because the business is growing. You're doing well. Your husband was kind of part in the business a little bit, because I think he had a product that was sold, which was in the refrigeration area. [00:12:40] Sue Neal: Yeah. Yes. His business was a tangent to mine. He manufactured a eutectic refrigerator. So that's a cold storage compound product that allows you to run a 70, 80 litre fridge for five hours a day, and then turn it off for the rest so that you have a fixed power consumption figure. But that was mainly [00:13:00] Speaker 2: used for mobile applications. Yeah. Okay. Now, what happened then? Because at one stage, I remember seeing a photo and the sale price of Quirks, which I'm not going to mention now, was very highly kept quiet in the office. Except there was this set of photos that somebody took, which has clearly the check on there. And when you zoom in, you could clearly see the number. So I always knew what it went for. I never told you that, by the way. [00:13:31] Sue Neal: No. Why are you telling me it now, of all places? [00:13:36] Speaker 2: Well, it was a decent amount of money those days. Yeah. I mean, what happened that you decided that you wanted to be part, because a large German company called Conergy, a little bit of a background, there was a small installer in Germany, just running solar. I don't know how he got into being electrical. What was his name again? Manfred, no? Manfred. Oh, yes. No. What was his name? God, we should know. He was the big founder, because it was a small installer who happened to have an uncle that was in the Nivea chain on the board. Smart uncle. And Germany just introduced a very, very healthy feed-in tariff. So solar started to boom. So he decided to build himself up and create a company that he then floated on the stock market. And he raised $2 billion. They had that much money in their war chest to not grow this company that was on. So you guys out there, small solar installers, 10-20 employees, you decide I'm ready for the stock market. You're an uncle who knows how to set it up. And you sell the renewable dream in the early 2000s in Germany, you were making big bucks. And so they went all around the world and bought up little companies that were already in the renewable because they had the dream to become the multinational of renewables. But they didn't just focus on solar. Anything exotic from pig poo that would make biomass to wind turbines that some kind of weird and strange engineer up the top of the Alps had developed. They went in and bought the lot every time. And every time there was an announcement on the stock market that they had grown and bought this new technology. And every time the stock price went up again. And you were one of the people they bought from. How did that go? I mean, it was, it was great. I mean, [00:15:31] Sue Neal: it was an opportunity for me to monetize the business, which hadn't, I had one other company that was interested in buying it. But I thought that Conergy was obviously they had aspirations, which I shared. They were going to be Sydney based, whereas the other company was WA based. And it also meant that you could vaguely see the way the industry was going. And then I wasn't a spring chicken when that happened. And I realized that was I prepared to ride the capital wave to actually be able to buy the stock to feed this market that's coming. And I said, well, no, I'd much rather just be bought out and I'll go and work for another company and do what I can for them. [00:16:17] Speaker 2: And basically stick also in the area that you did like, which was dealing with customers, designing systems, putting quality out there, making sure that it's installed properly, all those kinds of things that I know you're very passionate about, and really going around and raising millions of dollars. So you have the cash flow to buy the stuff that was needed. It was [00:16:36] Sue Neal: possibly not really, wasn't your cup of tea? No, no, I was, I was quite happy with the opportunity. It meant that my business effectively remained as it was once it was bought by Conergy, apart from the boxes of crockery that I received with Conergy's logo on it, which I thought was a little bit excessive. But no, no, no, it was a good move. I was pleased I did it. [00:17:04] Speaker 2: But you see, just to explain the Conergy again, they have this huge money now. They had to satisfy the investor. Luckily, Australia, I mean, there was a guy called Christian Langen, very smart guy, he told everybody that he was in Mensa, because he had an IQ of, what was it? Four thousand? No, no, 160, he mentioned. I always thought for a guy who was really smart, telling everybody how smart you are. Yeah, wouldn't you rather we work that out for ourselves? Anyway, he was, he was a nice guy. He gave me my opportunity in renewables. Christian Langen, if you see this, we do know that you were a pioneer and you had a great vision. And I actually think if Christian would have been in charge of the Australian company, he wouldn't have gone the way he went. But that's just my personal opinion. And you just quietly can nod or say something else. In any case, so the journey was there and we were looking at, I remember I walked in and I grabbed the panel and I was told, mate, there was 144 poly and the price was nearly 1500 bucks. And I just wanted to carry it around. And everybody was concerned there could be micro cracks if you touch it a bit roughly. And I didn't really even realize that that was the value of a panel in those days, because those same panels are now about 120 wholesale or something. And they're not 144 watts, they're 400, if they're IECOs, they're 500 watt now for the residential and much more for commercial. Anyway, so I started and I didn't know anything. Did you work that out? Ask me another question. You see, Sue and I are kind of, we're looking all mild and mannered now, but I think I drove her nuts in those days. And you're just allowed to nod a little bit because what happened is I was supposed to do the marketing and the brochures and all that, but I wanted to find out more about renewables and the real action was in sales. So I was always, the phone rings, I'd be on that phone and somebody wants to put an order in. And instead of putting them through to the sales department, I would ask them questions. Oh, so why do you like this panel? And what are you doing? And what system is this for? And the guy is just going, I want to just freaking putting orders through. But sometimes I do talk a little bit too much. And yes, by the time the customer went finally to Sue, I probably exhausted him. How did it come across on the other side? This German guy kind of, yeah, just be nice, please. [00:19:37] Sue Neal: I mean, well, it's probably, as my daughter says occasionally, a little from column A, column A and a little bit from column B. There were pluses and there were minuses. [00:19:46] Speaker 2: That's all I can say. Oh, you're so kind. Marcus, why the hell did you have to speak to that customer? Now I have to untwirl that pretzel again. Anyway, we learned on the job. And then on the first day, we actually traveled to Germany together. We did. And Conagy had money. And so Sue, as a kind of, I don't know what they called you, part owner or part CEO or guiding light in the Australian market, whatever your title was, they put her into first class. And we were only Michael Rush and myself, which were in there, we were only flying business class. So I mean, why wouldn't you? You know, first trip, literally start on the company first day at the airport, turn up, go to Germany, go to the HR department, get yourself all familiar, go through training in Germany and off you go. And it was a bit like training for you to showing new product. They had a sunlock system just coming through all that. So while we are there, we arrive in Hamburg and they had this beautiful palatial place, which was in Hamburg. There's one building, a commercial building, which is all made out of glass. Yes, beautiful. It's really nice. But Jesus, I wouldn't want to know what the electricity bill is to heat that place. But anyway, it's a beautiful view. Look around everywhere. There was Hans Martin. Hans Martin, Ruter. Yeah, he was driving around in a Segway along the corridor. Okay. I was driving along the corridor. In the corridor, there was a Japanese shrine with some kind of samurai old sword and a fighting thing because that was given to him by Shah because he bought a lot of Shah panels in those days. Anyway, so we arrived there and I don't know if you remember the story. We get to HR and they say, "Oh, who are you? Who are you?" We say, "Oh, we must be the latest employees from Conergy because we just started yesterday in Australia. We're still jet lagged. And we just started yesterday, so we must be the latest employees." And the lady goes, "Ha, ha, ha, ha, they've already employed 48 people since that time." Because the company was really into growing very quickly. And do you remember we had Hans Martin came into the room and there were like general managers from all around the world there, like at least 200, 300 people. How did it feel? [00:22:09] Sue Neal: Well, looking back, it was a bit like a Steve Jobs thing, wasn't it? And I remember, I mean, but when he said to us, keep it stupid simple, I knew we were in trouble. [00:22:25] Speaker 2: Yeah, so Hans Martin, his English is not that good. And he goes, you know, we will be the multinational renewable champion of the world. So what Shell is doing for oil, Conergy will do for the renewables in wind, in biogas, in solar, we will have the vision and you are, I felt like a disciple at that point, you know, and you are the future of this planet. And I go, oh, and he was kind of all building us up. And then he finished with the crescendo and he says, and so that's why we will follow this company motto. And the company motto is, keep it stupid simple. And he got it kind of mixed up, the one that we all use, okay. And I looked to my left and I looked to my right and all the German goes, yeah, keep it stupid simple. And I'm going, fucking English is not crazy. It's just like, there's a German history. I felt like I was kind of back in time, not going into too many details. And I turned to Michael Rush and I said, well, if that's the motto, we're in trouble. And we were. [00:23:32] Sue Neal: Well, that was that, remember, they had the, uh, the motto, uh, 50% by 2020. Remember, they wanted the world's power consumption to be powered by renewables, 50% of it by the year 2020. 2020. Very ambitious. Very ambitious. Very ambitious. Totally ambitious. But yes. [00:23:50] Speaker 2: But I don't know if you know some of the other histories. So Conergy did well. It was a distributor in Australia. It started, I think first year you guys did 18 million. I remember still that number from zero kind of bingo. And because also at the time, this was just before the government was looking at the $8,000 rebate from Howard. And of course, when there was an $8,000 rebate for solar systems, it just took off. So it again was actually the liberals that started really bingo to move into the residential, because I remember as one of the marketing exercises, we had a little pamphlet and we offered the 1.5 kilowatt system for around $15,000. And, um, we put 10,000 pamphlets into the inner city where we thought the more environmental conscious people would, uh, live. And we did put the price into kind of, because the payback was possibly 18 years. Yeah. Something like that. So you had to do it for environmental, environmental reason, not for financial reasons. And we had two phone calls. [00:24:55] Sue Neal: The slow uptake, yes. [00:24:57] Speaker 2: But as soon as the $8,000 rebate came from Howard, it was just going bank busters, isn't it? I mean, you, you, you, you kind of saw the volumes increase and everything like that. And it was really a bit of a cowboy industry because I spoke recently to Jeremy Rich, who was one of the founders of Energy Matters. And Jeremy says, um, you know, Conergy, I got a $50,000 account. And we just kept on ordering. They cash flowed the start of Energy Matters company because one stage Andrea accounts finally got on top of it and managed to consolidate everything. And the Energy Matters bill was totally owing $500,000, a $50,000 account. [00:25:41] Sue Neal: It's because we were using Navision, the accounting software from Germany, which made things very difficult. You needed a VPN to be able to access it and, you know, it was, you know, make everything as difficult as possible was also one of their mottos. So yeah, but no, no, no, we were very lucky. We were there positioned the right place, right time. Um, I set up the, um, modular system. So you either buy a, you know, sort of a rooftop, um, a tin roof system or a tile roof system. And Conergy had designed and patented and were manufacturing the best mounting systems. They were really excellent. Um, and then they had arrangements with Fronius and SMA. So they brought in, uh, Conergy badge products. They had, uh, [00:26:32] Speaker 2: So there was actually SMA inverters, little one and a half kilowatt, but they were actually in the Conergy colors with the Conergy sticker on it. And I've seen occasionally still some around on, [00:26:40] Sue Neal: there's still actually some of them working. And also they, um, we actually accessed a lot of product through a large Japanese trading house for Conergy. So that meant that we didn't have such long travel times for product to get to Australia. And there was normally quite good stock levels held until obviously it went totally ballistic. And we'll talk about that in a minute, but yeah. And the person on [00:27:03] Speaker 2: the other side of your competition was BP solar and Nigel Morris was in there. I think Rami, who's now running solar juice, he was working, but more in the production side of things. Yeah, definitely. And Andrew Burgess, who's also in solar juice now, I think he had one stage soon after I left, he also worked for Conergy for a while. I definitely know for sure. Andrew Burgess had a short stint at Conergy. But look, I mean, a lot of the people did start in those early days, they're kind of slightly retired now and all that. But just to give people a picture, our events, the kind of all energies, all that, they were whole, they were in a kind of a community hall with about what, 20 trestle tables? [00:27:48] Sue Neal: Yeah, we had more than trestle tables. I mean, but yeah. [00:27:52] Speaker 2: The very early days, I saw some people, they just had those fold-out plastic tables from Bunnings, they put an inverter on it and a table cloth to bring it up the standard a bit. Then they were starting getting little booths and all that. And Conergy was in the marketing, I mean, they were light years ahead. Yeah, they really brought it up here. And they developed the dealer network and all of that kind of things. And the biggest competitor was always BP Solar kind of thing. Yeah. And Conergy brought up the racking. And then I remember we were in All Energy and then BP Solar brought a racking up. And we kind of all went over to check if it was as good as ours. It wasn't. No, of course not. Yes. But, I mean, panels, we thought we got to 175 or something. There was the Suntec and there was the Sharp. There were the two big ones. And we thought, that's a pretty good panel. That'll be like that for five, 10 years. So when we were in the sales, because I moved slowly into sales, we said to people, I'll buy a five kilowatt inverter because it's not three times as much as a 1.5. I get that, usually an SMA. And we give you one half kilowatt on one string of panels. And in three or four years time, when you have a bit more money, you buy some more panels. Well, hang on. 175 weren't around anymore. By then we had moved to 235 or something like that. And so we kind of actually sold a dream, which wasn't really true because we didn't [00:29:25] Sue Neal: know what would the future hold. Well, I suppose it was true at the time it was said, but it should be contingent on product at the time. But yes. And I mean, the panels, did you think that we would [00:29:38] Speaker 2: move from 175 to 235 to 250, 260, 270? It just kept on going. I'm thinking, why didn't they just invent the panel one time properly to 500 and we're all done with it? Yeah. Well, I suppose we were very [00:29:51] Sue Neal: fortunate in Australia because we benefited from the University of New South Wales and their work in the development and improvement of PV. And then they went over to China and worked and obviously achieved great results. So I think we really, based on university research and development, we had no idea how soon better products were going to come out. And we were, I suppose, a little bit scathing of reports from overseas about what efficiencies are achieving and all of that, because we knew from the work that was done at UNSW how difficult it is to actually get these improvements and then commercialise them into products. So, I mean, yeah, I think we believed it at the time. [00:30:40] Speaker 2: No, I don't think we deliberately miss Seoul, but I don't think anybody, look, when I was working at LG and we brought a 300 out, some people were in awe because 250s were as a standard and we managed to get to 300. And some, I think it was David Wiltshire who said to me, oh my God, if one day we have a 400, that would be unbelievable, you know? And now we're over it. We're much higher than that. It's, I mean, yes, they made the panel a bit bigger, but still there's a lot of technology gone into it to bring it to there. But it also meant there's a lot of panels on roofs that you can't actually, if one breaks, find another spare one. And so a lot of stuff goes into, you know, and even panel recycling is still not where it should be. Problematic, yeah. I mean, after 20 years, that's been in the green industry. This is a, do you know what happened there recently? They've tried to put a trial on. So they finally, after 20 years, we've got millions of panels gone into landfill. None of us in the industry is happy about it. But I actually suggested, even when I was with LG, that you put a $10 or so levy on every panel that comes in, to then have that money available to assist the recycling industry. We say silver in it, aluminum, the glass can be reused. Literally 98% can actually be reused. There's companies like PV Industries in Australia. They want to grow, but they finally announced $27 million for a trial. There was one person who complained the way the tender was done. It got frozen now. This is supposed to start in April. So this is six months ago now. And the bureaucrats in Canberra is still scratching the head how to do a new tender again. And I think the total number of panels that were going into trial was only 2% of what is needed to recycle in the first place. So we're really so far behind, it's not funny. And now we've got the batteries coming. [00:32:28] Sue Neal: Yeah. They're not going to be so easy to recycle. [00:32:32] Speaker 2: Recycle. Well, panels are easy. [00:32:35] Sue Neal: If you can, I know that there's a business based in the UK that actually works in Europe, that gathers all of the used lithium batteries and actually then extracts the lithium lithium and feeds it back into the manufacturing market again. [00:32:48] Speaker 2: But I mean, you think about the ones that all come to Australia, $5 billion worth. There's an industry there too. Yeah. Yeah. And the government just looks at the front end for the headlines. But quite frankly, if this is the renewable industry, sorry, it's a bugbear of mine, we need a recycling industry for solar and for batteries. And we need it now. And we need the government to actively put the money where their mouth is because we spent $7.3 billion on the battery rebate. What about putting $200 million aside out of that money and develop the recycling industry? Definitely. Definitely. Now, Conagy then, you'd think there's an $8,000 rebate, the price of panels is coming down, but the volume increases. That's a bomb way to make money. I mean, how did the company, why isn't that the biggest company in the world following Hans Martin's vision? [00:33:40] Sue Neal: Well, I think they were very optimistic and I think a little bit naive. I think when they came to Australia, they thought that their successes in Germany and Europe would be easily transferable to Australia. So I think the fact that they landed and put in place the three parts of their business, so Epiron was doing utility solar, Sun Technics was doing specialist installations, and our group were doing sales and service. To try and get all of those three businesses up and running in a fairly naive market, as Australia was at that time, I think was very optimistic and ill-advised. [00:34:27] Speaker 2: Over-egging the pudding a bit. [00:34:29] Sue Neal: Well, you can't do all that in a different country. I think they thought that it was going to be a set and forget. We'll bring it. If we build it, they will come. But that wasn't the way it worked. It was too difficult. You needed to build relationships because solar was not a no-brainer for governments. They needed convincing. They needed influence. They needed to see the figures. And while you're trying to set up and run a business and get it profitable as quickly as possible, it's very difficult to do all that. And then I think another issue of a capital nature that I encountered was that they had also bought a solar water heating manufacturing business, which was manufacturing in two different overseas countries. And while they're manufacturing all of these parts to bring back to Australia to assemble, it sucked large amounts of capital out of the business, which meant that we were somewhat limited in the product that we could buy to feed the enormous market in Australia. So that was almost [00:35:37] Speaker 2: a self-limiting factor, if you like. That's right. They didn't just believe in solar and the biogas and all of these little wind turbines and big wind turbines, but they actually also looked at hot water to come into it. So they were kind of a bit greedy in it. And they did buy a company. And when I one day looked at the supply chain, it was like Kim Beasley's Spaghetti Nation cartoon, because I think the tank was made in South Africa. The collectors were made in Indonesia. Yeah. I mean, it was the most exotic product you could [00:36:13] Sue Neal: ever bring into Australia with so many different bits. And it was made in Western Australia. So it all had to be shipped over to Sydney. So it was, yeah. If it had worked, it would have been great. But I must say that the, to me, the effect of it was that it sucked capital, available capital out of the solar part of [00:36:31] Speaker 2: the business to keep them. But there were other things as well, which kind of, I don't know how much you know about this, but then Hans Martin in his vision to grow, grow, grow, initially had very good relationships. First with Sharp. As I said, there was the, the samurai shrine in the Hamburg office. And then one day it got removed because we started a relationship with Suntech. And so Suntech became the big supplier for Konogy of their modules, Dr. Xi. And then one day Konogy made the announcement that they would make their own modules made in Germany. At Frankfurt Order. In Frankfurt Order, which was East Frank, East Germany, because they got a lot of money from the government that was just the kind of reunification. Yes, that's it. That's the word. And there was a lot of money for employment in the East. And so they got that and decided to make a module factory. But you see, they had sold hundreds of millions of early solar farms in Germany. There wasn't much competition. It was Konogy, Konogy, and maybe one other. And they obviously already sold these. They were already in construction and they needed the modules to do it and to finish and make the profit. And as soon as Suntech heard about the fact that they were going to go into competition to them. From what I heard in some other, I don't know if you can confirm this. Suddenly the module supply slowed down significantly, which meant these big solar farms that they already banked on the profits. They, you know, they knew exactly what they were doing. They were built quite quickly. And the profits were already kind of expected. They actually reported these profits in the financial. In anticipation. In anticipation of the profit. And the modules never came. And they had already announced to the market that this would likely be the profit. And now it was going to be much, much less. But they decided to put the poker face on and still report this as profits, even so it was only paper money that never had come through. And I think there were court cases about this later on, and people had criminal convictions based on this. But what it meant for the company is personally, I got called in, I think you were in the meeting, I told what a great job I'd done in the marketing on a Monday. And I got a $30,000 bonus. I don't know if I deserved it, but it was bloody beautiful. You know, first class to Germany, a couple of times. Oh no, you did first class. I'd only got business, sorry, slummed it out. And you know, $30,000 bonus. And then I got called in on a Thursday and told that they'd had to let me go. And I go, I just had a Monday. I saw the Monday, how great I am, I'm getting a bonus. What happened? Do you remember what happened? On Wednesday, the accountant found out the fake reports, the banks walked in and said, you've got to get rid of 850 people in the next 24 hours or we close you down. So Roger, me by then, was the boss. And I complained to Roger and I said, listen, mate, this is making no sense. You let me go. And on Monday told me what a great job I'm going. And he goes, look, I'm giving you another 30,000 as a thank you, see you later thing. So I had 60 grand in my bank account. I never thought I had the week before. And he says, you should be happy because in Singapore, they're sacking 25 at a time. At least you're getting your individual sacking. [00:40:09] Sue Neal: Oh, great. Yeah. I was very grateful. It's a bonus. [00:40:12] Speaker 2: But these were the days. I made a phone call on Saturday morning to Jeremy Richard at Energy Matters. I had a new job on Monday because I have now an expertise in marketing, in renewables that I gained through Conergy in the two years I was there that nobody else literally had. And I got the job straight away and bingo. I think I paid the house off. It was a really great time. Thank you, Conergy. But from then on, it was never the same company, [00:40:36] Sue Neal: was it? Oh, no. It could never be anywhere near the same company. I mean, I was staggered when I first started speaking to Germany. It was very much marketing driven. The policies, there were no identifying overt business opportunities like in developing countries. I remember I went to a solar module meeting with all the manufacturers and the other Conergy distributors. And I said, well, it's important that any products that we're thinking of selling into the developing country market, because then you had junction boxes that you opened and wired up and then shut it again. Typically, for normal use, you'd take the junction box lid off and it was no longer connected to the junction box. So we said, for developing countries, you have to have a way that that lid is still attached to the junction box. Otherwise, people will climb up on the roof, take the lid off. It'll drop off onto the ground and they won't bother putting the lid back on and the modules and they will work properly. So, but they couldn't actually see, I suppose, those necessities that the industry needed to really be viable. It's not a, you know, a quick lick and spit thing. You know, you've really got to think about what products you're supplying, who the end users are, so that you basically build the success of the industry on those products. But I think that they were just lulled into a very obvious false sense of security with what was happening in Europe, mainly. [00:42:16] Speaker 2: Well, Germany pumped money in like there was no tomorrow. [00:42:19] Sue Neal: And the EU was pumping money into it as well. [00:42:21] Speaker 2: Yeah, true, true. And I mean, yeah, Spain had a boom and then Italy had a boom and they kind of just kept on pumping it in there. It was all really taxpayers' money in some way. But maybe because it was so easy for Hans Martin in the first couple of years, he never envisaged, a lot of people come to Australia and think we're just a bit of country bumpkins and it's easy, it's easy peasy Japanesey. And then they find out actually it's got blowflies, it's got the heat, it's got all these things that renewable actually has to withstand. And it's not that easy, you know, from an equipment point of view, because I remember you went and built an off-grid system somewhere in half the desert to support a retreat, wasn't it? Like that was all off-grid that place. [00:43:08] Sue Neal: In a national park, because they wouldn't allow diesel fuel into the national park. [00:43:13] Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I mean, those were really pioneering projects in those days. Do you know if that system is still running or being replaced? I think it is, yes, to the best of my knowledge. I mean, these things were built for 20 years, 30 years in those days, and there's still some BP 80 watt modules that people somehow pull off and they actually still do all right? [00:43:29] Sue Neal: I'm sure they are, yeah. You know, it's amazing. Yeah. [00:43:31] Speaker 2: But now it's all a bit more throw away. But then nobody would have, it was in those days, all the European, there was SMA, there was Fronius in the inverter space, the Conagy racking. Mm-hmm. Now it's all Chinese. [00:43:43] Sue Neal: Mm-hmm. [00:43:44] Speaker 2: SMA pulled out of Australia. Mm-hmm. Solar Edge, yesterday, made the announcement, pulling out of Australia, can't compete. So all these growth that we see of the new brands, the SIG Energy, the Solexes coming into Australia, somebody else is kind of dying and it's a lot of times the Europeans. And they were rather arrogant towards the Chinese stuff initially. I mean, it was better quality too, but they've just copied and made it better. Yeah. So did you ever, and we did have very cheap modules coming for Conagy at one stage. We did. [00:44:18] Sue Neal: We did. And we had, remember we had, we got a container of modules and some we picked up because we would actually randomly sample, uh, 13% of the, of the shipment and some had micro cracks. Remember we had to, we had to test every single module, um, for micro cracks. [00:44:37] Speaker 2: So... The cheap stuff was, was not the same quality. That's right. Yeah. It had the Conagy sticker on it. That's right. But we did have issues with the cheaper stuff in those days. Yeah. But they were much cheaper, those modules, weren't they? [00:44:49] Sue Neal: Oh, totally. And some people were happy to take the risk and buy them. [00:44:52] Speaker 2: I think Solar Fund was one of the companies at that stage. There was, you know, the names that like the lucky gold star for LG, there was, there was Solar Fund as a, as a Chinese module brand. Yeah. I mean, it's all come and gone. Yeah. And then the Australian, what happened to BP Solar and that, that all... All closed. [00:45:12] Sue Neal: Yeah. They couldn't, they couldn't compete. I mean, cause to be fair, I mean, they were aiming at manufacturing really high quality modules. They're working with UNSW and, you know, they had laser groove modules. And, um, you know, they, they were actually at the forefront of that. But then you get to the point where the manufacturing costs are much higher here. So you better to take a lower quality, cheaper product to get the same result from somewhere else. It just wasn't worth it. [00:45:44] Speaker 2: So was it like you in the procurement who would have thought, oh, we'll try the cheaper stuff too, because there's a market for it. Or was it the customer who demanded it? I mean, how did that kind of change? [00:45:55] Sue Neal: Well, they, you know, sort of the resellers would say to you, well, look, I can get this system so much from so-and-so. And then you'd say, yeah, but that's not the same quality. And they'd say, but the customer doesn't appreciate that. And this is where you need, um, if you like, a, um, a recognisable, uh, set of ethics or business principles within the industry, where if somebody says they're selling you something, that's what you get. Whereas initially when it all took off, um, you had electricians who basically never really sold anything. They were just using their services and getting paid for them. Now we're selling complicated systems to people and they had to know about them. You know, a lot of them, uh, electricians can be trained in, in one, uh, field of, of electrics, like their HVAC or their refrigeration or their high power or something. And then they move across to solar. They have to find out all of that. They have to be trained. They have to know the standards. All of that's vitally important. I don't really know currently what the status of that is in the marketplace. [00:47:02] Speaker 2: I'll get back to the standards and all that. But I do remember when I got my first system installed on my roof. David Wilcher, when it was one and a half kilowatt, David Wilcher, um, got the normal six mil electrical cable and used these little clips and clipped it to my roof battens. And then he got a pen out, a biro, and he wrote solar on it. And that was how we identified solar cables. There wasn't a special orange conduit. There wasn't labels around it. That's right. It was a normal electrical cable with high voltage. But we did write solar with the biro. And I don't know if this was a non-fadeable biro or if five years later we wouldn't know anymore. Yeah. But that was the safety aspect. There were no rooftop isolators in those days. And who knows if they were actually the right thing in the first place. [00:47:56] Sue Neal: I think the rooftop isolators were generally, were early, early equipment. But the trouble was that once the system's installed, the customer has no idea what's been put up there. And this is where you're referencing cowboys actually comes into it. Because really, you have no idea what people have put up there. And now you've got electricians whose base knowledge set is AC power. Now you've got them working with DC. And they really were unfamiliar with DC circuit breakers, with DC cable sizing. So they all had to go through this sort of renaissance, if you like, and learning. And a lot of them were not very good at it, is all I can say. [00:48:41] Speaker 2: Which brings me to a funny thing, because at the annual events, there was always this little fun thing where somebody who'd done inspection, brought the photos in. And it was always the good, the bad, and the ugly. And everybody always looked forward to the ugly. And they were really ugly things. They were up there on the screen, and you go, oh my god. You know, they should bring that back, I think. I mean, I think. [00:49:10] Sue Neal: Maybe people are worried about being sued now or something. I don't know. But it certainly highlighted the depths. [00:49:18] Speaker 2: Of improvements. And the peaks as well. [00:49:20] Sue Neal: Yes, yes. Of improvements possible. [00:49:23] Speaker 2: I'll go through you and your interest in standards and all that in a minute. By the way, I just want to finish the Conagy loop. Because so Conagy got into trouble because they were reporting the wrong financials when Suntech basically closed the book and they couldn't get modules. And they had to wait for months and months until their German factory was up. And then you did sell German modules for a while. But then I think it's basically, I mean, I remember staff encouraged their parents to buy shares at 70 euros a share, and towards the end of Conagy they were sitting at 40 to 50 cents. So some people really gave bad advice. But they went from 70 up to 200 at one stage. So it was like rubbing your hands and then just boom. When basically what Sant Martin had done, and I don't think I can be sued for that. So allegedly had done, purchased a lot of small companies. We had managing directors in Brazil, in Mexico. They basically employed 20, 30 people in literally a hundred countries and all said, "Renewable is the future. Go for it. We supply the modules. We supply that. You find customers. You sell this. This is the dream. Off you go." And then they found some local companies who were kind of dabbling into it. Or, you know, yours was more than dabbling. I think you were the most substantial company. But I looked at some of these pig manure companies. There were three farmers who just had a little, developed a little tank somewhere in the back of it and Conagy paid big bucks for it. Most of those people who sold their businesses for big bucks bought it back for about 10% of that, including the hot water business that they bought in Australia. That was purchased. [00:51:12] Sue Neal: But some people also elected to be paid in shares. [00:51:17] Speaker 2: Oh, that wasn't maybe so smart. In any case, it kind of slowly caved in because instead of focusing on the solar, which was profitable and was funded all around the world in big bucks, they also dabbled in the hot water, into the biomass, into the wind turbines, and it's put a lot of money into developing new products in that range. But if anybody knows from an engineering point of view, from you having an idea to build the product to then certify the product for it to work and then to sell it out the market, that's not a five-minute thing. So even the $2 billion that they raised was not enough in cash flow. [00:51:55] Sue Neal: To support the long-range life of that. [00:51:59] Speaker 2: They spread themselves too thin, too quickly, all of that. And eventually the share price kept on tanking, kept on tanking, and they didn't have the big projects. They couldn't complete it. So suddenly from a reliable company that gives you the product and the thing, they came to, well, you deal with Conogy, they can't even get a module, and they just kind of caved in. [00:52:20] Sue Neal: Well, it was also, I mean, they had their own problems, but then the rest of the market was also picking up. [00:52:27] Speaker 2: And competition came on. [00:52:28] Sue Neal: Improving their game, and products were better, and so you had sort of the double whammy, I think. [00:52:35] Speaker 2: I mean, it's funny how when you, I mean, and a lot of the brands that we, in the early days, there was ABB, they're not doing inverters anymore. Bosch tried it. Siemens. Siemens. [00:52:46] Speaker ?: Mm-hmm. [00:52:46] Speaker 2: Shell. [00:52:47] Sue Neal: Honeywell did inverters in the beginning. Yes. Yeah. [00:52:50] Speaker 2: I mean, the big conglomerates that are in that electronic space, they all developed their own inverters and saw the future there. And somehow, but it was always just a small part of that big, big, big business. And they all found out the hard way that that electronic, I mean, installers, ignorant, put those inverters on northern walls. Yeah. Three summers in the Australian sun, kaput. [00:53:18] Sue Neal: Mm-hmm. [00:53:19] Speaker 2: And then there came the Sunny Roos. [00:53:21] Sue Neal: Yes. [00:53:21] Speaker 2: And the Aero Sharps. [00:53:23] Sue Neal: Yes. [00:53:23] Speaker 2: They were very, very cheap, and they looked on the outside like an inverter. But if you had an Aero Sharp that was still working after three years, you should buy a lotto ticket. [00:53:34] Sue Neal: Yeah. [00:53:34] Speaker 2: Do you remember that? Yeah. They sent you actually 108 when you ordered 100 because they knew they were already dead on arrival. At least a minimum of four or five. Yeah. So it became suddenly very cheap Chinese product coming in the market, looked like a box, and people went for cheap. [00:53:50] Sue Neal: Mm-hmm. Exactly. [00:53:52] Speaker 2: And that gave us a bit of a bad name, too. [00:53:55] Sue Neal: Well, yes. You're just driving the industry down. [00:53:58] Speaker 2: So 2010, there were two, three hundred companies all going deliberately bust because they bought sort years before the cheap stuff, all the warranty claims coming in, and they go, Oh my God, we can't run around and fix all that. Mm-hmm. So they just furnixed. Mm-hmm. That gave us a bad reputation, too. [00:54:12] Sue Neal: Mm-hmm. [00:54:14] Speaker 2: Coming back to you and your passion, you then wanted to make sure that the installation standards get raised, that we actually install safely, that the industry reputation goes up, that the cowboys leave the industry. That was your big dream. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, that one. Yeah. [00:54:33] Sue Neal: Never going to happen, I don't think. Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker 2: With batteries now. Yeah. Yeah. But tell us a little bit about the setup of GSES and the standards and how you kind of your passion and what. I mean, there wasn't big bucks in that. That was really a passion, isn't it? [00:54:47] Sue Neal: That was initially a labor of love that there were four of us who were old timers in the industry, decided that because Australia had three very good manufacturers, no, four actually, we had Selectronics and Electronics who manufactured power inverters then, not grid inverters. Plasmatronics manufactured amazingly great voltage regulators and Century batteries. And we thought that it's a pity that wrap systems do not have a high turnover. You're not selling them often, if you like. So that maybe overseas would be a very good starting point for that. So we thought the only way to create a conduit of these Australian products internationally was to actually set up training and you train using these products as examples and start, if you like, embedding the products in the industry as early as possible. [00:55:50] Speaker 2: So you go, let's say, let's say to Papua New Guinea or other third world countries, you teach electricians there how to set off grid up. You then use the equipment that was made in Australia to train them up. They would know that equipment, trust that equipment, and that would help that equipment to be exported. [00:56:08] Sue Neal: Yes, but it didn't work because in developing countries, they didn't have the government funding that we received here in Australia for off grid systems and for grid connect. So they mainly rely on external funding or bank loans, international bank loans to fund these projects that are, if you like, that they just don't have the money. So even for projects that are lifesaving, they still have to borrow the money or they rely on loans. So what Jeff Stapleton, who is basically the founder of GSES, what he's done probably over the last 20 years is to replicate what we've done in Australia. So he set up the Southeast Asia industry, Southeast Asia SIAPI training organisation and industry body. So he's doing the same as we did here. So you start off by aggregating people who are interested in the industry or who are in the industry and get them to actually get them trained up and then start applying for funding so that you can show that you've got technical backup and the, I suppose, the rigidity of standards that are being applied so that people are happy lending the money or funding the projects. So that's the hardest thing in all of those developing countries. [00:57:35] Speaker 2: Right, right. I do remember that seeing Conagy at one stage had actually like a really small module and it was enough to power with a very small battery or so a light bulb. And they put that into places like Nigeria and all that into little villages. And then suddenly for the first time at night, they actually could continue their social life because they have. [00:57:59] Sue Neal: Or they could work or the children could read. So all of those, I mean, they get over everybody's head here, but they are life-changing in other countries. So, yeah, so it is, it's a very important part of, of what we should be doing as an industry. We have so much to offer that really would not be costing us a fortune to be doing. But as you say, with recycling, you know. [00:58:28] Speaker 2: Some of the basics we still kind of... That's right. Yeah, it's a bit frustrating. So when you hear that the government has had $7.3 billion support now for batteries, and we've got 550,000 batteries in systems, and to, for the government's credit, it is helping with bringing the wholesale price spikes down a little bit. And so there is some benefits overall for everybody, but it's still more the people who've got a house and reasonably wealthy to be able to afford a battery. So it's not necessarily, you know, a Robin Hood exercise all the time. How do you look at somebody who's a pioneer in this industry of the size and where we got to? [00:59:12] Sue Neal: Well... [00:59:12] Speaker 2: I mean, you wouldn't have imagined it that size. I went to All Energy. There was 30,000 people walking through. [00:59:19] Sue Neal: Yeah, well, there is a formula that applies to the value of products shipped internationally. So for every doubling of the volume of products shipped, all right, the price goes down 20%. [00:59:33] Speaker 2: Wow. [00:59:34] Sue Neal: So if you apply that to what we know about the renewables industry, not surprising, it's also cheap. Obviously, it's been driven primarily by Chinese manufacture, but still it's a fact. What do I think about it? I think it's a huge pity that we haven't been more innovative and developed smart grids around Australia to actually be able to share the collective benefits more of, shall we say, community solar systems. So that you're, as you say, you're relying on people to be able to buy the systems themselves to benefit from the technology. You still have the inbuilt problems with the grid, when demand's high and, you know, they send you a message saying you turn off your air conditioning, give you $5. This is so cumbersome. If we had a smart grid, that could all happen automatically. And you could have the leveling out of power demand, therefore prices would level out, but maybe the people who buy and sell on the spot market mightn't be happy because they're not going to get so much money. [01:00:41] Speaker 2: I think you just hit the nail on the head because through the privatization, we now have big banks, super funds, having big slices of ownership of the grid. And, you know, sorry to wear my little conspiracy hat, but, for example, solar farms produce electricity very cheap, nice wholesale price, but unfortunately it all comes out around the same time. So now if we want to have it available all the time, you really should have always a solar farm coupled with a battery. But if you then put the solar farm into a place like Moree, for example, which is a long way away, and Moree already has enough solar farms to supply Moree in the surrounds, then that electricity got to go back to Sydney. That means you have a really long transmission line and maybe it's somebody's business model to make the electricity cheap and use that in the marketing, but make sure the transmission line maintenance is there and is actually where the real profit is. So we're kind of playing with a hand here and go, renewables are cheap, but we're still following the old centralized model where the setup in itself ensures the profitability for long, long time. For the vested interest. That's right. So there's that game being played. And unfortunately, you would have thought that the governments and the ministers of both persuasions would see this and fight for the benefit of the people and maybe say, hang on, no, no, no, not the solar farm in Moree and the farmers upset and all that. All the roofs in Sydney that are warehouses, let's put lightweight panels on them, put them with batteries, find a program that runs that, because that's where we use the electricity. And if you can get that electricity down again to an affordable price point, and right now I'm talking not 48 cents, but 2023, you would actually then have again a manufacturing industry. So it's kind of all interlinked. But that's us just sitting there and dreaming it up. But unfortunately, we don't have the power to make it happen. [01:02:39] Sue Neal: No. But along those same lines, I read in the paper, you know, how we've had all the discussions about data centers and the power provisions and the cooling, the water for cooling and all of that. And I opened the paper on the weekend and there was an article that in China, they've built a large data center that they have immersed in the ocean. So the ocean keeps it cool and they use wind farms to power it. [01:03:08] Speaker 2: Wow. They are. I mean, look, I've went to Snake, to China myself. Yeah. I kept an open mind. [01:03:16] Sue Neal: You've got to give it to them. I mean, yeah. [01:03:18] Speaker 2: I didn't like all the cameras looking at me, but then, you know what? I start driving around Sydney looking. There's a lot of cameras looking at me here, too. Yeah. So, but then, you know, I'm going to say something slightly controversial here now, first time all day. But why is our government sitting there when there's a war going on that we don't want in the Middle East that's putting all this pressure on inflation that will ruin fifth interest rate rise just now? Well, the small businesses and other people with mortgages that are being really squeezed at the moment. I went this morning to a floor place for flooring and stuff. It's a huge warehouse. There were three salespeople. They could have just played a soccer game in there because there was nobody else there other than myself. I felt so important, like three moths flying towards me. So I only had a $500 order. I wasn't feeding them for the day. But that is the economy right now. Why is our government, if we have an alliance, is actually standing up and going to our friends, you're stuffing our economy, stop this stupid war, or we cancel our $380 billion submarine order, which we don't know why we're buying those sardine cans anyway. Because in those 20 years when they deliver them, their technology is going to be completely bloody obsolete. So did we ever vote on that? So those are the things that really frustrate the hell out of me. But we could really possibly have another two hours on that. [01:04:46] Sue Neal: We could on that alone. I mean, it's beyond my pay grade to offer an opinion on all of that. I think we would all like to see governments do things differently. [01:04:57] Speaker 2: Not having all these lobbyists walking in. [01:05:00] Sue Neal: Lobbyists. [01:05:00] Speaker 2: I mean, you know, they walk in, they do the dinners, they promise them jobs down the line, and actually the interest of the population isn't always followed. And that's why we're in the mess we are at the moment politically, because the trust has been broken, because people look, I mean, you know, a minister is minister for this and that. Let's make it weapons stuff. And then he leaves the parliament, and then he's on an $800,000 job with that department that he just put an order through for. [01:05:28] Sue Neal: That stinks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they do have time frames within which they can't go anywhere. Yeah, two years of holiday and then make the big bucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, yes, there are many things that are questionable. They shouldn't be allowed to work in there. [01:05:42] Speaker 2: If you're a minister for X, Y, Z, afterwards, enjoy your grandkids and whatever. Take your retirement. Yeah. But, you see, so that's why there is a certain way that the ordinary public and our interests are not always followed through. No. Solar gives a great opportunity for people to look after themselves, but it also made us all a bit more selfish, because I'm now literally have a big enough system and solar that I can go off grid. And I leave the whole headache of what's out there behind. But there are people in a unit. The more I go off grid and don't pay my fee anymore, the more they will have to pay for it. So, what you said before about the smart grid, where we're getting more solar and batteries into the city, bring the levelized cost down, bring it close to where it's being needed with an eye of manufacturing. Like in China, it was very interesting. I thought the manufacturing had cheaper electricity than the homes, but they actually, because the electricity is so cheap still overall, but they actually give cheaper electricity to people than to manufacturing. I thought with their focus on manufacturing, it was the other way around. [01:06:53] Sue Neal: Maybe it's their socialist views. [01:06:55] Speaker 2: But it was their, you know, the keep the people happy type of thing. We just don't, you know, we give three hours of free power, but then actually put the supply fee up to the point that the three hours are hardly a benefit in it again. And if you don't have an EV or other things, you can't always use it. So, it's all, anyway, I'm getting my snickers in a knot. Any final word about the whole renewable industry for where you've been there right at the start? I don't know if you ever had close to your eyes and had a vision of where we would go in the future. I don't think you would have imagined that we got, what, 4.4 million systems on roofs now? [01:07:31] Sue Neal: I would never have imagined that we'd got this far this quickly. But then I think largely that's due to China and driving prices down and product evolution, which obviously they feed the world. It's not just for us. [01:07:47] Speaker 2: But Australia is actually at the beginning of the curve. Yeah, we were. I went to SNEC and they said, oh, we all look good at Australia, the mistakes we all make. We don't want to make them. So, we're watching what you've guys been doing. We are still on the top, even with batteries, on the top of the curve. [01:08:01] Sue Neal: Yeah, but it's amazing. And also, I think, like, personally, it's pleasing that something that ideologically I believed in and that I thought was valuable, has actually found a real place in our lives. And people talk about it, sometimes with less than accurate information. But people talk about it and people know what a battery is now and they know what a solar panel is, even though, remember years ago, they used to confuse water heating and power production. Yeah, yeah, the water heater panel, yeah. [01:08:38] Speaker 2: But that's another one we're not going to go into. It has solar hot water, where we thought that was 65% efficient. We're getting 20 whatever out of the panels. We always thought, oh, hot water is 65% efficient. But a lot of hot water now has to go and make way for the PV panels because they're more flexible in all the applications you can have. [01:08:58] Sue Neal: Yeah, well, saw, Griffiths, promotes heat pumps. That's what you should have. Yes, yes. So, which, you know, fits the electrical world that he wants everything to fit into, which is great. [01:09:13] Speaker 2: Now, assume you, last time I knew you were in an apartment, so you possibly don't have solar on your roof. [01:09:20] Sue Neal: Oh, we do. Oh, you do? [01:09:21] Speaker 2: We do. But in an apartment? [01:09:23] Sue Neal: No, it's on top of the building. [01:09:25] Speaker 2: Right. [01:09:25] Sue Neal: And it's used for all the general area lighting, and we've got four EV chargers in the car park, and so it powers those. Right, right. [01:09:36] Speaker 2: So you can actually, in apartments, take advantage of solar too. [01:09:39] Sue Neal: Yes. [01:09:40] Speaker 2: As long as you have a body corporate who kind of plays ball. [01:09:43] Sue Neal: Well, that's right, and there aren't that many units where we are. So I really have no, I haven't seen the bills to be able to work out what the financial gain is from the solar. So I can't really say how much value it is to us. [01:09:57] Speaker 2: And do you drive an EV? [01:09:58] Sue Neal: Yes. Oh. [01:10:00] Speaker 2: Yes. What have you got? A Geely. Okay. Why did you pick that one? Any particular reason? [01:10:07] Sue Neal: Well, we did out, Leon and I, that's another reason, that's another thing I got out of the industry was Leon, my husband. And he's still smiling. And he's still with me. Yeah. So I looked around and we went and looked at a number of vehicles and Leon, bless his heart, watched four million videos on the television about every single vehicle that exists. And we thought the Geely just looks really nice. And all the bells and whistles and the binging and the bonging that everybody talks about, it had all of that. And it was basically inexpensive. [01:10:45] Speaker 2: They are surprisingly cheap, aren't they? [01:10:47] Sue Neal: Yeah. I mean, the value for money, if you look at it, is unbeatable, in my opinion. [01:10:55] Speaker 2: And you drive for free? [01:10:57] Speaker ?: Yeah. [01:10:58] Speaker 2: If you take it out of the sun. [01:10:59] Sue Neal: Yeah, we've got to charge. Well, if we do, but I don't think we do. [01:11:03] Speaker 2: I mean, after 10,000 k's in my EV since I bought it about eight months ago, and I worked out I saved $3,000 in petrol just on what the petrol costs are right now. It's crazy. [01:11:16] Sue Neal: Yeah. I remember when I used to drive home, I used to make a point of looking at the petrol station to see how crowded it was to see if I'd go in and fill up. Now, there is nobody there. Every time I drive past, there might be one car at most, and they used to be out the thing. So I don't know if that's a correlation of the number of EVs in the suburbs we're in. [01:11:37] Speaker 2: We are living in the eastern part of Sydney, where I would say from an electrification and an EV model point of view, you possibly have people that are more likely to drive shorter distances. Yeah. And also philosophically are a bit more tech savvy. And so I think you possibly, if we would say EV per head of population in your part of the world, is probably a bit higher than in Bundaberg. [01:12:04] Sue Neal: Yeah. [01:12:05] Speaker 2: Yeah. All right. Well, Sue, look, I really appreciate it because I think this industry has still got room to grow. I think a lot of the young people don't have any idea that a solar panel was $1,500, that you were very worried about one microcracker we might cause on them while they now chuck them in the ute like there's no value to it, that we actually come a little bit from the old hippie days where we wanted to do the right thing. So the first solar company, I think, was Rainbow Power Company in Nimbin, which the street is number one alternative way. That's right. So it gives you a bit of the history of where this whole industry is coming from. So it's not just flower in the hair in San Francisco, but it's the whole solar industry was born by people who believed in that communal aspect. And China saw the vision and ran with it and Germany got beaten by China, I'm sorry to say. And now they've been in trouble with the cars too. And I've got German background, I feel for them, but yeah, we have sometimes a bit of arrogance. I'm sure it's been beaten out of us right now. [01:13:15] Sue Neal: Well, also, it's a bit like when you think about Kodak as a business model, that they missed digital cameras. You know, like they missed all of that was going to happen. So it's sort of like sometimes these businesses are so big that they're very slow, they're lazy, they're too busy keeping everything going as they think it should be without looking forward. It's a pity. [01:13:42] Speaker 2: Well, EV cars is the best example. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. All right. Well, on that note, I mean, hopefully this is a really nice history lesson for people. [01:13:53] Sue Neal: It is going down memory lane, yeah, listening to you and Conagy. [01:13:59] Speaker 2: Well, you know, to me, I was an empty vessel of anything renewable. So your first experience, it's like your first love, you know, you never forget your first love. The 13s, you wonder if that was 12 or 13. Not that I had that many. I don't want to know about that. But it is a little bit like when you started in the industry, your first key moments, you know, being told you might have caused the microcrack and that's $1,400. And if it's got a microcrack, it's coming out of your wages. I think you threatened me like that. I think it was more like a bit more careful with the product. [01:14:31] Sue Neal: I remember many years ago, then it was Arco, brought out some thin film modules with the resin injected moulded, moulded rubber surrounds, absolutely ants pants. Oh, my God, they're fantastic. And we were at a boat show and we had them there. And somebody said, one of the, you know, sort of laconic boaties said, oh, better break really easily. And the guy who was with us, John Payne, who writes books for boats, said, oh, look, I'll show you, I'll show you. He laid it down on the ground and jumped on it and went, and he just stood there and said, beam me up, Scotty. So, yeah, it happens to everybody. [01:15:17] Speaker 2: The last one that I just remember is Energy Matters at the time didn't know if solar or wind would take over. So we would sell people a one and a half kilowatt solar system. And it was always an extra incentive if you would sell them a wind turbine as well. But there wasn't much around in wind turbines other than the little ones they'd put on boats. Well, we sold three of them in Maricool. And within about two weeks, all the neighbours had complained to the council. Stop the noise. Because they were going off like a clapper. It's like a lawnmower. [01:15:49] Sue Neal: They are noisy, yes. [01:15:51] Speaker 2: So that was the early days. So we stopped selling little wind turbines. [01:15:57] Sue Neal: What were they? Air Marine. Air Marine? [01:15:59] Speaker 2: Yeah, something like that. Yeah, cute little 350 watts they were doing. [01:16:03] Sue Neal: You know, I mean, if they're 50, 100 metres away from the house, it's great, you know. [01:16:08] Speaker 2: Not for Maricool. [01:16:09] Sue Neal: And the trouble is that you want them to be working when the wind is greatest. And that's when they're noisiest, you know. [01:16:17] Speaker 2: But, again, the Chinese have now got some stuff that is, like, more cylindrical. Oh, Savonius. Yeah, they're very quiet. They're like wind walls. [01:16:25] Sue Neal: They don't, because the area swept is one of the multipliers for power output. So if you've just got a Savonius doing that, obviously the area swept is not very great. But they're easy to install and you're not going to cut people's heads off, you know. [01:16:39] Speaker 2: See, Sue knows her stuff, technical stuff, you know. So it's kind of like you see her walking along and you go, oh, yeah, yeah, I can hoodle boodle her as a sail. No, no, no, no. She still knows her stuff. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for coming soon. Thank you. [01:16:55] Sue Neal: Give me your time. It's been. And Leon too. Yeah. Because he's sitting out there. I know. [01:16:58] Speaker 2: I bet he's going to tell you two or three things that we shouldn't have talked about. I know. [01:17:02] Sue Neal: I hope that's only you, not me. [01:17:05] Speaker 2: As always. Guys, really had a good time. Guys and ladies. Oh, my God. Anyway, till next time, as I always say, enjoy. [01:17:18] Speaker 3: Please support the channel by liking the video, hit that subscribe button and ring the bell and check out all our other videos. Want more energy answered? Visit yourenergyanswers.com for quality energy products, tools and calculators and find your quality local installers. You're still here? I'll see you next time. Bye.