White House faces questions over new press secretary’s background

[0:02] Thanks for streaming with us. I'm Alexandra Goldberg. White House Press Secretary Katie [0:07] Zachariah is facing questions about her resume. The Associated Press writes Zachariah has long [0:14] described herself as a lawyer. She received her law degree from Pepperdine Caruso School of Law [0:20] in 2011. She writes in her Instagram bio, she is, quote, a wife, mom, and lawyer. And in the [0:27] president's announcement of her appointment, he calls her an attorney. But for the press secretary [0:33] who made her debut at the podium on Tuesday, questions have swirled over if and where she [0:40] passed the bar exam to be licensed to practice. New this Thursday, she confirmed to USA Today that [0:47] she never passed the bar exam and is not licensed to practice law. She told USA Today she took the [0:54] California bar exam and did not pass before moving to China with her husband. She said, quote, [1:00] the results of the bar exam were inconsequential because I was already moving to a foreign country [1:07] that didn't require it, end quote. She also tells the New York Times that when she first began [1:14] appearing on cable news, she consulted with Pepperdine's president as to how she should identify [1:19] herself. And she said she was warned not to use the words attorney or Esquire, but that she could [1:26] call herself a lawyer. Zachariah was a commentator for Fox News and Newsmax and most recently has been [1:32] the senior communications advisor at the Trump Media and Technology Group. Legal analyst Nima Rahmani [1:39] joins us now for more context. Hello, welcome into the show. Thanks for having me, Alexandra, as always. [1:46] Of course. So Nima, what's the difference between an attorney and a lawyer? That's the million dollar [1:54] question. So let me start by saying I've been on set at Fox News with Katie and she's very pleasant and [2:00] I've been on the cable news circuit and seen her and she seems very well spoken. Now, some people do say [2:09] that a lawyer is someone who has graduated law school and has a JD and an attorney is someone who's [2:15] actually passed the bar. Now, there's some disagreement there. It's far from settled. So [2:21] I don't know necessarily. I could definitively say that representing yourself as a lawyer when you [2:26] haven't passed the bar is not misrepresentation. But look, people go on TV and they say all sorts of [2:33] things and there's no requirement to have a law degree or a license to practice law to be a TV [2:39] commentator or even the White House press secretary. So really the bigger question is, [2:43] has she been practicing law without a license? And to do so, we really got to go back and look at [2:49] her body of work up until now. So you said a couple of things that I want to touch on. [2:55] You know, some people are critical, saying she may be representing herself. But most of what I've [3:04] heard is the question of, is it ethical to call yourself a lawyer with just a JD? What's your take on [3:10] that? Listen, I got to tell you, I'm licensed in six different states. I've taken three bar exams, [3:16] two ethics exams, passed them all. I personally would not use the word lawyer until I have passed [3:22] the bar. I run a large law firm. And whenever there is a post-bar graduate, that's what I call them, [3:31] either a JD or a post-bar graduate or a law clerk or a legal intern, we always drop that asterisk so [3:38] they know that this individual is not licensed to practice law yet. You have to pass the moral [3:43] character exam and you're going to pass the bar exam and the ethics exam. Those are the three things [3:47] that you need to be able to practice law. So the question is, has she been practicing law? And really [3:54] she's, I think, had two different sort of legal or quasi-legal positions. The first is for that [3:59] Chinese law firm. Now, if you're doing transactional work in another country, you don't necessarily need [4:05] a license to practice law from the United States. Now, you might potentially run into issues with [4:11] that country's requirements, but certainly not an issue here in the United States. [4:16] So then the question is, really, has she been practicing law in any of the states here [4:20] or territories without a license? Now, on her LinkedIn, this has gotten a lot of coverage on [4:26] social media. In fact, my whole feed is Katie Zachariah and whether she's really practicing law [4:33] without a license, she did say that she was the general counsel of a non-profit that was started [4:37] by some Trump administration officials. Now, if you're the general counsel, if you're providing [4:43] any type of legal advice or representing anyone, whether it's an individual or entity, you do need [4:49] a license to practice law. Now, there's some exceptions under California law and the state bar, [4:55] but I don't think any of those exceptions would apply to her. So I think that would potentially be [4:59] a problematic statement if she was indeed serving as the general counsel of this non-profit. [5:05] Okay, that's, yeah, an interesting look into her resume. Let's talk more about this because the [5:10] watchdog group, Campaign for Accountability, filed a complaint Wednesday with the state bar of [5:16] California asking them to investigate whether Zachariah misrepresented herself as a lawyer in [5:22] violation of California law. Nima, my question for you, thinking about this, I mean, does the state [5:30] bar have jurisdiction over an unlicensed person? Not necessarily. Now, she may have a serious problem [5:38] if she applies to be an attorney with the state bar of California, given that she has said that she is [5:45] a lawyer. So she might have issues with that moral character application that we've talked about. [5:50] Obviously, now there's a complaint against her, but the state bar governs individuals like me who are [5:54] licensed and individuals who are working at my direction. She is not subject to the jurisdiction [6:01] of the California state bar yet because she doesn't appear to be an applicant for admission, a licensee, [6:09] nor is she a licensed attorney. So again, may give her problems down the road if she actually wants [6:15] to become a practicing lawyer, but it's not necessarily the agency that's going to give her problems. [6:19] Now, under the California Business and Professions Code, if she is providing legal services without [6:25] a license, that's something that can be prosecuted. That could be picked up by the district attorney, [6:30] the state attorney general. So she could potentially run into some criminal problems. Obviously, if she's [6:36] misrepresenting herself to any potential clients, it doesn't seem like she has any clients. They could [6:41] potentially sue her. But as far as the state bar is concerned, she says, you know what, I'm not going to [6:46] take the bar. I'm not going to apply to become a licensed attorney in California. There's not a [6:51] whole lot that the California state bar can do here. You know, in my research here, I kept coming [6:56] across unauthorized practice of law and this sort of legal premise here. Neva, can you explain to us [7:04] what would constitute this? What constitutes an unauthorized practice of law? I mean, if you just [7:11] kind of talk about this in broad strokes for us. Yes. Yeah. So that's a great question. So let's [7:16] separate the two. There's the rules of professional responsibility that govern attorneys. So for [7:21] instance, I could be reprimanded, censured, disciplined, suspended by the state bar. Then [7:27] there's the California Business and Professions Code that governs everyone. So those are laws that [7:34] prevent someone from performing medical procedures without a license, even being a masseuse without a [7:40] license. You have to have a license to do many things in the state of California, just like any [7:44] other state, right? To be a contractor, to be a plumber, right? So if you're an unlicensed contractor, [7:50] you're going to run into legal problems. And if you're an unlicensed individual providing legal [7:56] services, holding yourself out to be an attorney, well, that is a problem. So the question is, [8:04] has Katie Zachariah performed legal work without a license? That's why I kind of go back to that [8:11] nonprofit. Now, again, if she's on TV and she's sort of giving her legal analysis without a law [8:18] license, not necessarily unlawful. Again, there's people that come on TV and they say all sorts of [8:24] things without any basis whatsoever, right? If she's in another country, again, not a problem because [8:29] she's not representing anyone in the United States. If she's doing legal work in California [8:34] or any other state without a license, that's where the problem lies. And that's a potential [8:39] criminal violation, not just an ethical one. All right. Nima, you know, I know that the bar exam [8:47] is tough and I've never attempted to take it. I don't have my JD, but no doubt about it, [8:54] this bar exam is tough. And I've been hearing that the California bar exam is a different beast. [9:01] Can you confirm or deny? I know you're licensed in several states. [9:05] Yes, I can absolutely confirm. The California bar exam is by far and away the hardest bar exam [9:11] with the lowest passage rate in any state in the country. Very difficult. Back when Katie and I took [9:18] it, it was a three-day bar exam. They shortened it to a mere two days. But I mean, I can tell you, [9:24] I'm going to out myself a little bit. This was back before people could use laptops. I mean, [9:28] you would write like crazy for three days. We would take Advil because it is that strenuous of a test. [9:34] Again, it's gotten streamlined a little bit more easy over the years, but there's a reason why folks [9:39] like Kim Kardashian can't even pass the baby bar to get to the real bar exam. It is a grueling test [9:46] and the passage rate is low, significantly less than 50%. And it's even lower for people who have [9:54] failed once before. All right. Very interesting. Nima, this is a story that we'll keep track on [9:59] of, excuse me, as we continue to see developments. But we appreciate you coming on the program tonight [10:05] with your insight, your analysis here. Of course. Thanks for having me as always. I'm sure SNL, [10:10] Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this one this weekend. [10:12] All right. Thanks, Nima. We appreciate it. Our coverage continuing. I wanted to put up [10:18] this social media post on screen for us. The Washington Post saying that there's no evidence [10:23] that White House Press Secretary Katie Zachariah practiced law in the U.S. Several experts said [10:30] that if a person is not licensed, not a licensed lawyer, but is identifying as one that presents [10:35] serious ethical and legal problems. We've seen a couple of the major outlets reporting stories, [10:41] digging into the background and resume of Katie Zachariah. The Wall Street Journal here is saying [10:47] White House Press Secretary Katie Zachariah took the California bar exam, but did not pass it. [10:54] Trump has referred to her as an attorney. That last line there, this is referencing the truth [10:59] social post that the president put online announcing the appointment of Katie Zachariah. [11:05] I wanted to mention, seemingly, I was just looking here a couple of minutes ago, Katie Zachariah [11:11] was giving the same refute here on Fox News to Sean Hannity tonight, giving the same explanation as to [11:19] why she says she thought the label of lawyer on cable TV news appearances was acceptable, but not the [11:27] label of something like attorney or Esquire. We're going to continue to track this story. Of course, [11:32] another big question is when will Katie Zachariah's next press briefing be from the White House? There [11:39] are some questions to when that could be possibly in the next couple of weeks or days. Still waiting [11:46] on guidance from the White House for that scheduling.