What's the bill to rebuild Gaza, and who will pay? — Inside Story

[0:00] a report by the un and european union estimates that it will take 71 billion dollars to rebuild [0:06] gaza about a third of that is needed just to restore essential services destroyed by israel's [0:12] war so how will gaza be rebuilt and who'll pay this is inside story hello welcome to the program [0:35] i'm adrian finnegan more than two years of relentless israeli attacks have decimated much [0:40] of gaza the scale of the destruction is unimaginable places that were once home to vibrant communities [0:47] are today mountains of rubble and buried underneath are unexploded bombs toxic chemicals from weaponry [0:55] and the unrecovered remains of thousands of palestinians killed in israel's genocide a joint [1:01] united nations european union report says that it will cost more than 71 billion dollars over 10 [1:08] years to return gaza to a place where people can live the sums involved are gargantuan about the [1:15] annual gdp of a country like oman or luxembourg the political challenges to making it happen are [1:21] equally immense so can the report's vision of reconstruction be realized and who'll pay and how [1:28] does it fit with the plans of u.s president donald trump's board of peace we'll discuss all of that [1:33] with our guests shortly but first a report from felix niwara israel's genocidal war has transformed gaza [1:42] into a wasteland of death and debris the united nations says it will take at least 15 years to clear [1:50] almost 60 million metric tons of rubble analysts warn it may take much longer the full extent of [2:00] destruction can only be determined when international inspectors are given full access to the territory [2:07] the un the world bank and the european union have published a report on what will be needed for [2:13] post-war recovery it says 71 billion dollars over the next 10 years will only mark the beginning the [2:22] report estimates the destruction caused more than 35 billion dollars in physical damage disruptions to [2:30] economic and social life led to about 22 billion in losses more than 60 percent of the homes in gaza have [2:39] been destroyed and that has displaced at least 1.9 million people the report also says the genocide [2:49] in gaza has effectively wiped out entire sectors of society education is among the worst affected areas [2:59] 728 000 children are unable to go to school because of israel's war less than half of gaza's health care [3:08] facilities are functional but even those aren't fully operational 1.7 billion dollars in damage has been [3:16] done to gaza's water and sanitation facilities and 10.5 billion dollars will be needed to revive [3:24] agriculture the report says these areas are top priorities for post-war recovery it highlights [3:31] the daunting reality and overwhelming struggle palestinians face daily in gaza while humanitarian [3:38] relief trickles in the quantities allowed fall far below the need the un says israel's destruction has set [3:46] back human development in the gaza strip by 77 years felix nora al jazeera for inside story joining us now [3:57] from al-zaweda in gaza is ahmed boween abu amsha who's a music teacher there good to have you with us [4:02] sir ahmed give us a sense of what uh daily life is like right now in gaza what are the challenges that [4:10] that you face on a daily basis yeah yeah thank you so much you know it's not easy right now to have a good [4:19] water to have a good food to have a good shelter until now we stuck in the middle nobody is asking [4:28] about us and nothing moves since the war of iran until now gaza like everybody forget about it until [4:38] now we're facing a lot of of things it's not easy to get to minimum life after you're a fit reasonably [4:49] healthy man what about the sick and infirm the elderly uh babies nursing mothers and infants how do [4:59] they get by okay i will tell you about all the facilities of the hospitals the schools are destroyed [5:09] now there's a point for uh doctors they they help the the people the kids and they have a lot of [5:19] problems with medicine it's not exist and they try just to to give them a a painkiller yesterday i take [5:26] my my son he has a heat and he's a flu only they give him a a painkiller that's it so yeah it's very hard [5:35] for everyone in gaza the the the the kids the older men it's not a life really it's need a lot [5:45] gaza needs a lot of support and help to get back to a minimum life okay what about basic necessities [5:52] such as drinking water and bathing water toilets is there a functioning sewage system right now in gaza [6:01] it's all destroyed you know there's some places like have a a water grid and it's only come one day [6:10] six hours in the day and you have to be hurry to to fill your tanks uh because you know the fuel does [6:18] not exist even it's very hard to get fuel it's very expensive and uh you know there's no electric [6:25] so they use a solar panel to to to generate the the water pumps and and yeah until now it's it's hard [6:35] and and no the border is closed for a solar system for mobiles for everything that can help gaza until [6:44] now and everything is and what about foods um are there shops from which to buy food and and money [6:51] where do people get money to buy food okay it's a long story really the food is exists right now [7:00] it's a little bit better uh you know after before that there was a uh genocide and then there was [7:08] starving and there's no food i was buying the packet of flour one one thousand and five hundred dollars [7:17] only for one packet for uh 25 kilos now everything is exist but it's still it's very expensive it's still [7:26] it's not easy to get you have to about the money you know there's no banks it's only you have the money [7:33] from the black market or you can buy at the mobile app uh to get cash and right now all the the the [7:44] people in gaza trying to deal with an app bank and what about shelter where are people living where are [7:52] people sleeping right now i i know that the buildings that are that are uh still standing most of them are [8:00] extensively damaged and and dangerous where are people laying their heads at night you know there's [8:09] not a specific shelter for the people here um the people live in the street beside the street beside the [8:18] left and the right they build their tents and and live there there's no enough space you know a lot of [8:24] displacing people uh in the middle of gaza city because there is some places are still standing and still [8:32] working and there's water uh but you know north gaza nothing remains so it's in you know uh it's not [8:43] enough space for all that it's displacing people from north and from rafa to have them so i'm living now [8:51] in the seaside on the beach in the sand i build my dance and my activity there with edward state conservatory [8:58] because we don't have choices ahmed really appreciate you coming on to talk to us today many thanks [9:06] indeed ahmed mouin abu amsha there in gaza thank you so much let's bring in our guests joining us from [9:18] ramallah in the occupied west bank is zavier abu eid who's a political analyst and former communications [9:24] director for the palestine liberation organization in berlin is sultan barakat he's a professor of public [9:30] policy at hamad bin khalifa university and a specialist in post-conflict reconstruction and [9:36] also in ramallah is raja halidi he is the former director general of the palestine economic policy [9:42] research institute gentlemen a warm welcome to you all raja let's start with you you heard what ahmed [9:49] was saying there from gaza the un the eu and the world bank put this reconstruction bill at something like [9:55] 71 billion dollars over a decade are those numbers credible is it going to be enough is it just a [10:03] partial picture of the damage yeah so as former director general of the research institute we [10:12] followed this from the beginning and clearly the numbers today that have been released the 72 billion [10:18] 71 point something billion uh are uh are are well established if you look at the report of course [10:27] it has extraordinary detail very well well well you know it's the best that can be done without [10:32] actually going around us and counting but anyhow it's a it's a 20 it's a 50 more than the first estimate [10:40] which was for the first 12 months of the war and this is now 24 months and one can add to that [10:45] the fact that since the october ceasefire destruction has continued etc so my point is [10:52] that this is definitely the best we're going to get the all we need in fact we're talking about total [10:56] losses total damages and needs and in those three categories the the report has done an excellent job [11:03] and in fact taken it forward because they've now given us time frames for how much we'll need [11:08] in each uh of these periods and i think this is something often missing from this discussion when [11:13] we talk about 72 billion oh my god how you know where are you going to get 72 billion to be honest [11:17] you know the report is very clear about the first eight months and the first 18 months and those uh in [11:24] in that in those first 18 months uh the actual needs are less than 20 billion uh assuming everything was [11:30] available and uh of that a lot of it to be honest and not most of it is relief uh uh relief shelter the [11:38] things that ahmed so eloquently told us about the basics that nobody really is thinking about [11:43] talking about when talking about reconstruction so i think this is a bit of a you know it's important [11:48] to bring it down to to to to to the ground and uh uh and think realistically what do we need in the [11:55] next eight eight months what do we need in the next year and a half and then talk about these grandiose [12:00] visions for for you know reconstruction uh uh regardless of who who's behind them so this is the priority [12:07] relief uh uh shelter uh humanitarian assistance price stabilization market stabilization and then [12:17] recovery and then we can talk about reconstruction uh sultan margaret 71 billion dollars that's a [12:22] whopping amount of money over a decade okay we're talking about in the short shorter term uh an amount [12:28] that's that's less than that 20 billion dollars or less that's still nowhere near what donors uh have [12:34] pledged who's going to pay okay yeah well there are two ways of looking at one is to think in terms of [12:41] justice and if we pursue the the root of justice then of course uh israel has got to to pay some [12:48] reparation uh for the damage it caused in gaza now this uh will probably be uh refused by israel and by [12:57] extension the united states uh despite the fact that the u.s has in fact provided israel [13:04] with almost 30 billion to conduct its war over the last two years this is in addition to the [13:09] 3.8 billion dollars they get every year now the assumption i think within the u.s and israel is that [13:17] the arab states will roll over the roll up their sleeves and they will come as they have done in the [13:24] past and pay for it as will the european union now because of the way this particular genocide took place [13:33] and because of the creation of the board of peace these two uh willing uh contributors are not willing [13:41] anymore the europeans have been largely alienated they've they did not want to join the board of [13:46] peace they would like to see different mechanism they would like it all to be done under the united [13:51] nations umbrella considering the international law and so on and the gulf states who may have [13:57] been willing to contribute and made some uh pledges to the board of peace now are in a very difficult [14:04] position after the iran war and i doubt that they will be as willing to come up with the billions that [14:11] they've promised each you know each gulf state almost one billion to contribute to the reconstruction [14:16] so the short answer is that there are no real clear contributors uh willing to uh pick up uh the [14:24] bill and this is something i think is very well understood by netanyahu and his extreme government [14:29] they know very well that they are now managed to put two million people in a protracted humanitarian [14:35] situation where they will be only fed in their were in their place of displacement and the way they've been [14:41] pushed away from the israeli borders uh cornered in certain areas across the gaza strip this is a [14:48] situation that they expect them i think to stay with within for a number of years to come xavier what [14:54] are your thoughts on this particularly on the board of peace the report itself uh insists that uh [14:59] reconstruction must be palestinian led what are your feelings on on the involvement of the board of [15:06] peace and who pays and i think there is an issue of design that that it's it's very complicated to [15:15] analyze as we stand because the board of peace it was not made for gaza the board of peace is an [15:20] institution for president donald trump it does not include the stakeholders that are needed for it [15:27] to operate in palestine now it has kind of two parallel boards and there is one board for gaza and then there is a special [15:35] coordinator for this to work and i don't really think that this board is going to be able to operate [15:42] in gaza because it has basically focused on israeli interest it has actually even conditioned the entry [15:49] of humanitarian aid for example or the amount of humanitarian aid entering to the disarmament of [15:55] hamas no one is talking about justice no one is talking about a israel still occupying almost 60 [16:02] percent of gaza and on the other side i think it's also another important element is the fact that [16:09] you know the the this report that you have been talking about this eu-un report it sets several [16:15] elements that are important for a reconstruction to start and one of them is that more freedom of [16:23] movement between gaza between the west bank and between both of them together in within as well the [16:29] humanitarian aid to enter as well as ceasefire to take place well the three of them are actually [16:35] conditional to israel and i don't really see any power particularly the u.s willing to put the needed [16:41] pressure for israel to allow for this to happen roger halida halidia i'm sorry um with 60 million [16:49] tons of rubble as we were saying in the introduction and and that's going to take years just to clear it [16:54] is there even a realistic pathway to start uh rebuilding reconstructing gaza at scale anytime [17:01] soon look the the political pathway i think will be ultimately decided in in the iran war in the [17:12] context of the outcomes of the iran war as well as the future of the the board of peace which i you [17:17] know have no problem trashing uh you know there are all lots of good reasons that it's a you know [17:23] contravening international law and disrupting multilateralism and and all of the other reasons [17:30] on the other hand um if a political environment can be created by the board of peace and i think [17:39] some extent we've been wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt that if it could perform [17:43] and provide better humanitarian assistance and bring in the the the 20 000 uh caravans that have been [17:49] waiting at the borders and uh you know regardless of the disarmament issue if it could achieve that [17:56] then you know whoever can do that you know all power to them that was in some ways that i think [18:01] the gaza and palestinian you know sort of consensus is that we accepted this board of peace resolution [18:09] on the assumption that it was going to deliver what it said it was delivered now it hasn't in the war [18:13] iran war is obviously complicated things but to say that you know at this moment i think it's not the [18:18] right moment for us to to abandon the board of peace ship in the sense that it's uh still guided by [18:24] united nations security council resolution and it has one uh one legitimate element if i may say [18:31] which is this national committee uh for the administration of gaza which is a legitimate [18:35] because because it's it's it's been formed but with with credit with credible people in you know [18:41] professionals but with palestinian consensus it's in fact the most legitimate in some ways rep not [18:46] representative but legitimate palestinian administrative body that we could that we have [18:50] right now and in that sense it might be the only remaining uh uh stand last man standing once the [18:57] board of peace is indeed going to be cut down to size i believe by the the fallout from the war the [19:03] financial fallout and so on and so forth on the funding issue let's just quickly remind ourselves [19:08] you know the u.n has been able to come up with three to point five to four billion dollars [19:12] in the last three years through the u.n donors thank you you know have been able have provided [19:18] for around close to four billion dollars in in emergency aid for the last couple of years so [19:23] there is you know the minimal need uh uh which is three to four billion dollars for basic survival [19:30] can be as you know can be secure there are other sources israel is withholding six billion dollars [19:35] of palestinian fiscal resources you know this is a money that would have partially been spent on [19:41] um there are other ways we can think of the the of meeting the funding challenge but it requires a [19:46] political horizon of course and i don't think israel you know is going to be able to continue blocking [19:51] this uh indefinitely and we have to be ready for the moment that it's a that you know we can we can [19:57] have a breakthrough get this committee into this to get it operating get the internal security and [20:02] it says you know these are things that are are doable regardless of all of the problems with the [20:07] board of peace and international law sultan what are your thoughts on on that the report is clear [20:12] that without a sustained ceasefire and free movement of goods reconstruction cannot succeed [20:19] how far away right now are those conditions gazans were promised uh a ceasefire which has not been [20:27] sustained it's been violated uh repeatedly by israel ever since the agreement was passed [20:33] so the u.n resolution was passed and without any uh any cause to israel they also were promised [20:41] a security force international security forces going to come and help secure gaza and help [20:49] disarm hamas and all this that is now not happened and it's very unlikely now indonesia will [20:55] come forward with the force that they've talked about in the past it's not been resolved the civilian [21:02] military coordination center that was created inside israel is pretty much under the control of israel [21:09] in fact a few days ago they expelled the spanish out of the center because they don't like what spain [21:14] stands for so uh this what is what has really taken place since the u.n resolution is a consolidation of [21:23] israel's control over the palestinian and their destiny in in gaza and as such when they are told that [21:30] they've robbed them out of 77 years of development you know they should really be the first to answer [21:36] for this and how they're gonna pay for it how are they going to going to support them again now it [21:42] doesn't mean that the palestinians have no resources one obvious resource is natural gas in the sea [21:49] opposite gaza which is a palestinian right that's now being exploited by israel in some occasions in [21:55] fact in partnership with other regional countries but uh for now let's just summarize it in the [22:01] context that palestinians are not benefiting from it so there are resources if the world is focused [22:07] on palestinian first that the reconstruction has got to take into consideration the need [22:12] for them to sustain their livelihood they need jobs you need to create a good half a million jobs [22:17] in the coming few weeks that doesn't exist never mind infrastructure and feeding people and [22:22] everything else there are hundreds of thousands of young men and women who are sitting unemployed in [22:27] the gaza strip they need to have the real prospect the environmental issues have got to be tackled [22:35] the only thing that often talked about in the circles of the board of peace is the rubble and [22:41] you know why is because they think they can use it to claim land from the sea which is going to become [22:48] a prime uh coastal area for the development of uh very expensive flats and towers and hotels and so [22:56] on and this is something that the international uh backers of the board are willing to invest in but [23:02] not in the reconstruction of where people should really return to and until now israel has not given [23:08] the green light for them to return to their homes and the idea that they could i'm sorry to interrupt you [23:14] sultan but that's a point that i wanted to put to to xavier let's not forget the people of gaza nearly [23:19] two million of them displaced how do you even begin to think about reconstruction without first resolving [23:26] where people can safely live if access security and movement remain restricted this this 71 billion [23:33] dollars that we're talking about this plan it's it's a pie in the sky isn't it also something that [23:41] uh professor barca just uh highlighted that has not been granted to people in gaza science that this [23:46] fire a quote unquote it was achieved but i would also like to to address an important point with [23:52] regards to context because the interest of israel to isolate gaza from the rest of palestine did not [23:58] change the interest of israel not to have a palestinian state did not change and still israel has a [24:04] veto right in all this context so i would say that it's it's actually very important that we [24:10] focus on gaza and the reconstruction in gaza they have been going through a genocide and i would call [24:16] it even an ongoing genocide but we should not forget what's happening in the context of palestine whereby [24:22] for example president donald trump said that he would not allow israel to annex the west bank and since [24:28] that moment almost 50 new israeli settlements have been announced here in the occupied west bank [24:35] rajee you spoke about about what's needed in the short term not being anywhere near the 71 billion [24:41] dollars that we're talking about what would success actually look like here at least in the near term [24:47] restoring gaza perhaps to what it what it was before october uh 2023 are we talking about something [24:54] completely different how quickly can things move well the 10-year uh time frame that's provided in [25:03] this report is i think a reasonable one and that's a time frame which is assuming access of course is is [25:09] israel is out of the way out of uh ghazi of course but more importantly that or no less important is [25:15] that access of goods and and building and and and and the required reconstruction material is eventually [25:22] you know smoothly entering under those conditions and under a financing scheme of you know four to five [25:29] billion six maybe a year uh including this is you know we should not forget including palestinian resources [25:37] i mean palestinian private sector resources investment etc expatriate uh uh palestinian expatriate [25:44] community investments as long as it's as long as there's a time a a a a political context for such a [25:50] such a process it can be you know it the the so the the the residential construction is loan requirements [25:59] needs reconstruction needs i think of 30 billion out of the 70. now you know that's over 10 years or seven [26:05] years six years uh it's not so you know that's not an unbelievable amount and it's not either uh [26:14] i mean this the the the rubble the uh removal of uh of of uh ordinance all of those things could [26:21] proceed at the same time as you're setting up as the same time as you're setting up temporary uh [26:26] communities shelter communities at the same time as you're starting to to to rehabilitate uh utilities [26:32] and so on and so forth so it doesn't need to be sequential i'm sorry the point is that the the [26:37] yeah i'm sorry to cut that it would not be done within the vision of the riviera that it would be [26:41] done actually as a palestinian i'm sorry to cut you short sultan barakat we have we have a less than [26:46] a minute left professor i mean please pick up on on what rajah was saying there and and are you optimistic [26:53] or pessimistic that that will get anywhere near uh reconstructing gaza anytime soon all the very little [27:01] optimism that uh kind of uh risen in the aftermath of the ceasefire has now disappeared when we saw [27:08] the way israel managed to lead the united states into another adventure in the region that has really [27:14] got gaza out of the media and also has normalized the level of of killing that took place in gaza so [27:23] i'm not really optimistic of what's going on i think again without a serious political resolution to [27:30] the issue without a serious uh end of occupation uh nothing is going to change much and israelis will [27:37] also come to to to to to to learn that the same people that have risen against them will rise again [27:46] in fact their children now have twice the reason to uh to revenge to uh demand their freedom and so on [27:54] so it hasn't really addressed the issue of security not for the palestinians and not for the israelis [27:59] gentlemen there i'm afraid we must end it many thanks indeed for being with us today [28:03] xavier abuid sultan barakat and rajah halidi and thank you for watching you can see the program again [28:10] at any time by going to the website that's at aljazeera.com for further discussion join us at our [28:15] facebook page at facebook.com forward slash aj inside story and of course you can join the conversation [28:21] on x our handle there is at aj inside story for now that's it from me adrian finnegan and the team [28:27] here in doha al jazeera's live coverage continues in just a moment