'WE ARE NOT HERE TO PLAY! Fireworks as Sifuna and Gladys Wanga clash badly in senate Committee!🔥

[0:00] management has taken note of the audit findings and wishes to state that the process to open [0:08] the Homer Bay County Infrastructure Financing Fund. [0:11] Sorry, Governor, Senator Chiragay, what's the matter? [0:16] Governor, we might just read the page number, page 20. [0:19] Okay, proceed. [0:22] The process to open the Homer Bay County Infrastructure Financing Fund has been initiated. [0:30] However, the process stalled due to delayed approval by the Principal Secretary for National Treasury, [0:36] as was directed by the Central Bank of Kenya. [0:39] Consequently, in the circumstance, the management made use of the existing option of paying the financier [0:46] through the county development account, and the process has been seamless. [0:51] In addition, the county government occupied the main headquarters block to ensure continuity of service delivery, [0:58] while works on the amphitheater, landscaping, and final finishes were still ongoing. [1:04] The works are now completed. [1:06] Further, occupational safety and health certification was not availed at the time of the audit [1:11] because it was in the custody of the contractor, who later released it to the county officers [1:17] and submitted for audit verification. [1:19] Chairman, we have attached appendices 21A, which is the completion certificate and photographic evidence [1:29] of the completed headquarter and auxiliary facilities, occupational health and safety certification, [1:35] and correspondences on opening of the special purpose account. [1:42] Thank you, Chair. [1:43] In your first paragraph on your response, you indicated that the process stalled due to delayed approval [1:56] by the Permanent Secretary for the National Treasury, as was directed by the Central Bank of Kenya. [2:02] What approval were you requiring from the Permanent Secretary for the National Treasury? [2:07] If you look at the appendices, Chair, when we wrote to the Central Bank for purposes of opening a special purpose account in 21C, [2:25] as is usually the procedure, the Central Bank wrote back, and the letter is attached there, [2:36] citing provisions of the Constitution and asking that for us to open this account, [2:42] they needed a no objection from the principal secretary for the National Treasury, [2:47] after which we wrote to the principal secretary for National Treasury, [2:52] and we have followed up physically as well, [2:56] but we have not been able to receive the feedback to allow us to open that special purpose account. [3:04] Was that a condition precedent, the approval of the National Treasury? [3:13] Chair, when we were doing our Homabay County Infrastructure Financing Fund bill and law, [3:22] we sought advice from the controller of budget and from the National Treasury, [3:27] and they gave us the requisite approvals. [3:30] But in the Fund Act, it indicates that we need to open a special purpose account, [3:38] that money for this particular project moves from our CRF to that special purpose account to be accessed by CPF. [3:47] So, when we wrote to Central Bank to open the account, they referred us back to National Treasury, [3:55] and we wrote back to National Treasury, and they have not been able to give us that clearance. [3:59] The money that you paid, how did it move from CRF to be accessed by CPF? [4:07] So, what we have been paying now is directly from the CRF to CPF, [4:12] without it passing through the special purpose account. [4:16] Governor, before we go there, there's a letter from you, I think Solomon Obiel, [4:23] to the principal secretary dated June 18, 2024. [4:27] First, I have a problem with the timing of that letter, because I'm sure work had already begun on that project. [4:36] You are requesting for an objection when you are almost done with the project. [4:40] But where is the response from Treasury, from the PS of Treasury? [4:48] Did you ever receive a response from them? [4:50] Not on the opening of the account, even though earlier on when we were doing the act itself, [4:58] they had responded to give us consent to proceed. [5:01] Where is that correspondence? [5:04] Because what you are calling a delay, in my view, is a denial. [5:09] No, the correspondence for purposes of the act is separate. [5:16] But since that was not in the query, what was being queried was delay in opening of the special purpose account. [5:22] And so we... [5:24] I only bring it up because you are the one who has attached this correspondence. [5:27] Just like the letter from the central bank gives the reasons why you cannot proceed without certain things, [5:36] I want to know the reasoning of Treasury. [5:39] And it's quite strange that even Homo Bay cannot get a letter of no objection from Treasury. [5:45] Yes, we are one thing, but I'm just wondering if there are people who should get letters quickly from Treasury. [5:59] It's people of Homo Bay. [6:00] And I think as long as it's lawful, there shouldn't be a problem. [6:03] That's the point I'm making, Chair. [6:04] What the response talks about is a delay. [6:08] But it is possible that it is a denial because there's a problem with this kind of arrangement. [6:12] That's what I'm driving at. [6:13] Can we establish some things also so that we base it on facts? [6:18] Auditor General, you are saying that the county government entered into an agreement, [6:23] a tenant purchase agreement on the 6th of May, 2024. [6:28] Is that a fact? [6:29] On the 6th of May, 2024? [6:32] Yes, Chair. [6:32] The request for account opening on the 27th of May, 2024. [6:37] That's why I was asking whether the establishment of the fund was a condition precedent to execution of the contract. [6:46] So it appears as if this was done after the contract had already been signed. [6:51] Chair, the fund and the account, the fund law and the special purpose account are two separate issues [7:01] because what was precedent for us to enter into this arrangement was that we needed to have a law [7:07] to underpin the model of financing that we had entered into with CPF, which we did. [7:19] And we received approvals from Treasury and we received approvals from the controller of budget. [7:24] The approval was on the law to proceed with the law, but on the TPS itself. [7:34] Yes. [7:35] Was there correspondence to seek the views of Treasury on the tenant purchase scheme that was executed on 6th of May, 2024? [7:46] That was now supported by the law. [7:50] What's the link between the TPS and the law so that we understand you may have more information? [7:58] What's the relationship? [7:59] The county attorney can elaborate, but the law gives us the framework under which to proceed in the process that we did. [8:12] But let's get that nexus so that even if you are arguing over the fund and accounts, we know that there's a relationship between the two. [8:22] If this TPS is eased on that law. [8:28] Thank you very much, Chair and Honorable Members. [8:32] Chair, the law that... [8:35] For record purposes and hands and purposes, just reintroduce yourself. [8:38] My name is Frederico Rego, county attorney. [8:41] Chair, we are making reference to the Homabay County Infrastructure Financing Fund Act No. 8 of 2020. [8:48] And the area that you are making a question in respect of will be Section 9 of that legislation. [8:55] And it says, eligible... [8:57] That is Section 9. [8:58] Eligible infrastructure projects may be financed through any of the following means. [9:03] A, tenant purchase scheme. [9:05] B, finance leases or operating leases or lease to own. [9:09] C, annuities. [9:10] B, fees and levies paid by users and beneficiaries as approved by the county assembly. [9:15] E, income shares contract. [9:18] And F, any other lawful means that is not considered as borrowing under Kenyan law. [9:23] So that is Section 9 of our legislation. [9:25] And the tenant purchase scheme is the one under 9A. [9:28] Thank you very much, Chair. [9:29] Are you saying there's absence of national legislation to govern loans and guarantees and annuities and tenant purchase schemes such that you enacted legislation because there was no national legislation? [9:42] I, Chair, the legislation that we are referring to is the one that I have read. [9:48] No, no, no, no. [9:49] I'm asking you as the county attorney. [9:51] Yes. [9:52] Because we have had this conversation earlier on the facility financing. [9:56] that where there is national legislation that has taken care of a matter, county legislation cannot try to rewrite it. [10:05] So I'm asking, in the PFM Act, PFM regulations, even in the Constitution, are there provisions that would govern how counties execute contracts like tenant purchase schemes? [10:19] And, Chair, just as it takes that question, Wakili, there is a proviso you've read at the end there. [10:24] Unfortunately, I don't have the benefit of a copy of that legislation. [10:28] Just that proviso at the end that talks about things that are not considered borrowing, is it my understanding that the things that you've listed prior to that proviso are not considered borrowing? [10:44] Yes, actually, the intention is to expressly exclude borrowing. [10:47] And, in fact, Chairman, the question that you've asked as to why we have come to this legislation is because we relied on Article 207, 2A, that allows a county government to set up legislation to allow for a charge on the CRF. [11:12] Just a minute, Wakili. [11:13] Yes. [11:14] Let's go slowly. [11:14] You are saying the things you've read for us up here, including a tenant purchase scheme, is not considered borrowing? [11:26] I'm saying that the things that we have provided for in our legislation for 2023, the intention was to expressly exclude borrowing. [11:37] Why? [11:38] Because if you look at the Constitution, when you're talking about borrowing, then you'll have to go to Article 212, which allows for borrowing of counties. [11:49] If there is legislation by the Parliament. [11:53] So what we relied on was Article 207, 2A of the Constitution, which then was the legal constitutional basis for us to come up with this legislation and listed all those items that are bred under Section 9 of this legislation. [12:08] Wakili, that section you're referring to empowers you to establish funds, and that's okay. [12:14] I think there's something reasonably excluded. [12:17] That's okay. [12:19] But the Constitution is not silent. [12:22] In Article 212, it says a county government may borrow only if the national government guarantees the loan. [12:30] The question we have on the table, did you take a loan? [12:35] Is a tenant purchase scheme a loan? [12:38] No. [12:38] It's not even about the fund. [12:40] Is a TPS a loan? [12:42] For example, I have a TPS with NSSF. [12:48] They charge an interest over 15 years. [12:51] What I pay at the end of 15 years, I'll own the building. [12:56] Is that a loan? [12:58] Yes. [12:59] I have been forced to take mortgage insurance over it. [13:03] Would I take mortgage insurance if it wasn't a loan? [13:05] So can we then define this animal we have? [13:08] Is it a loan? [13:09] Yeah, and Chair, just to be clear, because sometimes things get lost in semantics. [13:15] They are very basic ingredients of a loan. [13:18] Correct. [13:19] Number one, if the money building that house is not yours, it belongs to someone else, and you have to repay it by whatever arrangement. [13:27] That's the basic definition of a loan. [13:29] So how can we be arguing on whether a TPS and there's an interest charge on it? [13:35] It's not your money. [13:36] You've taken it from someplace else. [13:38] You are given opportunity to repay in installments. [13:41] There is an interest that is charged on it. [13:43] If that is not a loan in Homer Bay, I don't know where the borders of Homer Bay are, because once you cross this side, that's a loan. [13:51] Look, Governor, and you see this is an extremely important point, not just for Homer Bay. [13:57] The rest of the 46 counties have got serious infrastructural gaps. [14:03] We went to Mombasa. [14:04] They need 1.1 billion to build a stadium. [14:07] If this is the right route, we will tell Mombasa, go to CPF. [14:12] Do that thing, because it's within the law. [14:14] You go to every other county, there is an infrastructural gap. [14:20] So we must agree on the legal, constitutional basis of this approach. [14:24] And if you all agree this is a way to go, I think we'll advise other counties to come and benchmark in Homer Bay. [14:31] So let's not talk about the fund, treasury, what? [14:35] Is this a loan? [14:37] Chairman, the answer is no. [14:38] This is a charge under Article 207 of the Constitution. [14:42] Chair, can I ask something? [14:43] What do you just expound that a little bit? [14:47] Because as we said, the framers of the Constitution decided to introduce Article 212 for good reason. [14:55] Yes. [14:56] And that's what you were saying, Chairman. [14:59] When we were coming up with this legislation, we consulted quite a bit. [15:04] And the consultation was... [15:06] Chair, I think we are getting lost in semantics. [15:09] And time is running. [15:10] Charge and a loan are the same thing. [15:12] What does he mean by it is not a loan? [15:14] It is a loan because if the bill that has been attached in Annex 21A, [15:22] the CPF is indicating that they have used 820 million Kenya shillings. [15:27] So you must pay with an interest. [15:31] Because even as we take a charge in our mortgage in Palermo, [15:35] and we pay 3% interest, and Governor Wanga was a member of Palermo here, [15:40] and I don't know whether she took the mortgage. [15:42] Maybe she's better off now. [15:44] But the point I'm trying to make is this cannot be money where you work to CPF. [15:49] They give you 820 million, then you return 820 million. [15:52] Is that what Wakil is telling us? [15:54] Thank you, Chair. [15:56] Okay. [15:56] Wakil, just take the questions from the Senator. [16:01] Senator Amboa. [16:01] Thank you, Chair. [16:02] And I'm not finished. [16:03] Can I finish just one minute? [16:04] Okay, okay. [16:05] Okay, okay. [16:05] Be in a minute when you look at the time. [16:08] Two things I need here. [16:10] The agreement that they signed between CPF and the county, [16:13] and then how are they intending to repay? [16:17] Is it securitization of the revenue, or how are they intending to repay this amount? [16:23] Thank you. [16:23] Senator Amboa. [16:24] You know, Chair, the beauty of it is that our friend, the governor, [16:33] when I look at our records, [16:37] she was an effective chair of the finance committee in parliament. [16:43] So definitely she understands if there is a difference between a charge and a loan. [16:48] The thing that, Chair, I want to get clearly from the attorney, [16:52] so that we don't really get lost in semantics. [16:56] Whose money has been used to put up the facility? [17:03] Where is the attorney? [17:06] I can take that. [17:07] Okay, so you take a number of them, eh? [17:10] Yeah, yeah. [17:10] So whose money has been used to build the facility? [17:17] Secondly, is there a repayment of that money? [17:22] Is there going to be a repayment of that money? [17:25] Thirdly, and thirdly, is there an interest to be paid on the money that has been used? [17:33] Now, Chair, if then the response is that somebody else's money has been used to put up the facility, [17:42] and that the county government of Omar Bay will have to repay that money over a period of time, [17:50] and there is an interest that is going to be charged on that money. [17:56] Then, Chair, it doesn't matter what you call that thing. [18:01] It's a loan. [18:01] That's what it is. [18:03] For me, Chair, [18:04] Okay, Senator Amaruma. [18:06] Yeah, the TPS was anchored on the law called Homabay County Infrastructure Financing Fund. [18:15] How is it possible to execute it without opening the SPA, the special purpose account? [18:25] Because then, ab initio, the TPS started without following the law. [18:34] Chair, I was trying to find the provision that establishes the central bank, [18:39] but on this controversy, I think we can all agree that the central bank as the chief bank of government [18:46] and the one that sets policy for everyone else to follow should be the guide chair [18:53] on what should have happened in this particular case. [18:55] In fact, instead of stressing the county attorney there, [18:59] the letter from the central bank dated June 11, 2024, is for me instructive, honorable chair. [19:05] If you go to actually both paragraphs, [19:08] but I just want you to take note of what the central bank is saying at paragraph two, [19:13] that further as a standard practice, counties and indeed all the public entities [19:17] at all levels of government requesting CBK to open special program accounts [19:21] usually obtain and submit a very specific no-objection letter [19:26] from the national treasury to operate those specified fund accounts. [19:30] And the county having been properly guided by the central bank, honorable chair, [19:34] they needed to comply with those directives. [19:38] And I don't think, because I have not seen the correspondence from treasury, [19:43] what I suspect, honorable chair, is if that correspondence exists, [19:47] they would have been given the same guidance that you have given, [19:50] that such arrangements require the guarantee of a national government. [19:55] And that's why probably that letter is not here. [19:57] Okay. [19:58] We can allow the governor to respond to the various issues, [20:01] and we can make them quick-fire responses, [20:07] because we are supposed to be out of here in another 10 minutes. [20:10] Thank you very much. [20:11] I think Senator Mambua asked whose money was used for these purposes. [20:17] This is county pensions money. [20:22] It's our pensions kept by CPF coming back to invest, [20:25] as pensions do across the world. [20:31] Is there a repayment? [20:32] Yes. [20:33] We make a monthly payment to the county pensions fund. [20:39] Now, not passing through the special purpose account, [20:42] because we have not been able to open it yet, [20:44] but directly to CPF. [20:48] Is there a cost of money? [20:51] Yes, there is a cost of money embedded within the $820 million. [20:58] Just to be specific, is there an interest? [21:01] That's what you are calling cost of money. [21:03] And what is it? [21:04] The amount that we are paying as tenant purchase, [21:10] we are paying the $820 million. [21:13] So every amount has been worked in within that $820 million. [21:18] So how much of that is interest? [21:20] Because, you know, the conventional TPS is that you get a purchase price, [21:24] but because you are paying over a period of time, [21:27] an interest is livid. [21:28] This seems to be the other way around. [21:30] So the purchase price for this office is $820. [21:36] What is the annual interest? [21:39] No, that is what we pay to CPF. [21:41] So in the $820 million, how much is interest within the $820 million? [21:46] Chair, it would just take... [21:46] We are occupying a building done by CPF. [21:50] We pay them an amount every month that will amount to $820 million. [21:55] Chair, if you want to know what the interest is, [21:57] you just minus the cost of the project, [21:59] the cost of the actual construction from the payment, $820 million. [22:03] So I thought I saw a figure somewhere of the total cost of the project was how much. [22:09] Not what you're paying. [22:09] It's $820. [22:10] The cost of the construction. [22:12] Governor, you know how you are very clear on how much it costs to build a two-door toilet in Kaksingri. [22:17] How much does it take to put up that office block? [22:20] Minus what you're paying, or minus from what you're paying, [22:23] we will get the figure of interest. [22:24] Correct. [22:25] It's that simple. [22:26] Okay. [22:27] Like the court, Chairman, through you, the contract that was ink and paper, [22:32] what was penned between CPF and the account? [22:37] What was the figure? [22:39] $820. [22:40] $820? [22:41] Yes. [22:42] So, Chairman, maybe what I could say is because the issue we were responding to, [22:51] raised by the auditor, was the issue of... [22:59] I want to assure this committee, number one, [23:01] that every procurement law applicable was followed. [23:06] In this case, what was the procedure just for our... [23:10] We advertised for it, and I think the procurement people will detail the process. [23:16] Can they just describe it quickly? [23:19] And, Chair, I think the bottom line riding on your question is, [23:22] we want the specific amount that was used for the main headquarter building. [23:28] Just specifically, it is $300 million of one, apart from explaining the process. [23:33] Because if... [23:33] If we get that, then we can know how to make $120. [23:36] You know, members, as someone who comes from Homer Bay, I know the building exists. [23:41] The building is there. [23:42] So, it's not a hypothetical thing. [23:44] However, we have a responsibility to advise 46 other county governments. [23:50] Correct. [23:50] And that's why we must establish the constitutionality and the legality [23:53] and how procedural this is. [23:55] No, Chair, we are not doubting the building. [23:58] I know who opened it. [23:59] So, the issue is... [24:01] I know who opened it. [24:03] So, the issue is the legality of the process. [24:07] You must have been present at the opening. [24:09] Yeah, personally. [24:10] I don't know. [24:11] Personally, I suspect that there is absolutely no way that the county government of Homer [24:17] Bay cannot know the amount of money that was put in that structure. [24:23] It's not possible. [24:24] I remember getting into an argument with one of the other governors who came here. [24:29] I think she was talking about a hospital that was being built. [24:32] I think it was Runyenjes or something like that. [24:35] And they were saying even the BQs... [24:38] There is someone in this team who has seen the BQs of that hospital and they know exactly [24:43] how much. [24:43] But because there is a cost of financing, Governor. [24:46] So that if the procurement laws were followed, then you should have been telling the Senate [24:51] and the people of Homer Bay, this is the best deal we could get you in terms of [24:53] the cost of financing vis-a-vis the building that we are getting. [24:57] Someone in that team has that answer. [24:58] I think the governor referred to the procurement team. [25:01] Who's the head of procurement? [25:02] Could you tell us... [25:03] Did you do a professional opinion on this? [25:06] And what... [25:08] Just go on record, introduce yourself. [25:13] Were you in the room when... [25:15] So, do you even know what you're talking about? [25:18] Honorable Chair, I've been keenly following. [25:23] So, I know what... [25:24] Okay, just... [25:24] They're following on the... [25:25] Just introduce yourself. [25:26] Yeah. [25:27] Thank you, Honorable Chair and Honorable Senator. [25:28] My name is Peter Odiango. [25:30] Head of Procurement Omabe County. [25:31] Member Kism 66721. [25:35] So, kindly ask the question. [25:37] But you said you have been following. [25:39] What question did you come to answer? [25:42] And... [25:42] I don't think we said it until... [25:43] Until I reach the door... [25:46] No, no, no, no. [25:47] Omabe is more... [25:48] Governor, our county is more serious than this. [25:52] Now, the question was... [25:54] The tenant purchase agreement... [25:56] Yes, sir. [25:56] For the 820 million county headquarters. [25:59] Which procurement procedure was followed? [26:04] Out of the procedure... [26:05] The Procurement Act... [26:07] We have several procurement methods. [26:10] And we use... [26:10] Tell us... [26:10] Just tell us the one that was followed. [26:12] Because we must be out of here in five minutes. [26:14] We used an open tender method. [26:17] And what we are doing is to do tenant purchase. [26:20] And the Procurement Act also allows for lease and even TPS. [26:26] Don't tell us what the law says. [26:28] It's in black and white. [26:29] Just tell us what you did. [26:30] We used an open tender method. [26:32] Okay. [26:32] Yes. [26:33] Open tender. [26:34] There were advertisements. [26:35] Yes. [26:36] There were... [26:36] How many respondents? [26:39] During a pretender site visit, there were five. [26:42] But the final submission was done by one tender. [26:45] Which is CPF. [26:45] And you did a professional opinion on that? [26:47] Yes. [26:48] And that is all on record? [26:49] Yes. [26:50] Wonderful. [26:51] As you tendered, what was the indicative cost of the project? [26:55] Because you must know the cost of the project. [26:57] Then people bid. [26:58] And then take the lowest bidder. [27:00] But that bidder cannot be lower than the cost of that project. [27:03] The shared cost which was floated by the tenderer was over 900 million. [27:09] But since the tenderer was one, we went and negotiated and came back to it 20 million. [27:16] Members, we have 10 minutes to go to the house. [27:21] Just on that one. [27:22] Just on that one. [27:24] It was... [27:25] It was... [27:25] The gentleman belongs to a professional body. [27:28] I even heard him telling us the membership number. [27:32] How is it that you do an estimate for the construction of the facility, and according to you, the person is floating the tender, the cost is 900 million. [27:52] Then, because there is only one responsive tenderer, you sit down and reduce the cost of the project. [28:03] Negotiate downwards. [28:05] What did you eliminate from the project? [28:06] Those are details, the honourable member. [28:11] But we have minutes to that effect, so that we... [28:13] Is that the way it works, Chair? [28:15] I thought he said that there was only one... [28:18] The final person quoted 900. [28:22] Yes. [28:22] But you revised it down to 820. [28:25] Yes. [28:25] But what was your BQ? [28:28] We did not have a BQ, because what you wanted... [28:31] So you took anything that was available in the market? [28:33] Honourable Chair, I wish you could raise it to me. [28:35] When you want to purchase a space, even here, you only give the specification of what you want. [28:44] I want a room, this measurement... [28:46] Chair, just on a point of order, looking at time, we are not in a classroom. [28:50] Just answer a specific question. [28:52] Okay, he's going well, Senator. [28:54] No, no, we... [28:55] No, we need... [28:56] We love expressing our English, so just understand, my friend. [29:00] But looking at time and English, it doesn't add up. [29:03] So the point I'm trying to... [29:05] I'm trying is... [29:06] We are just specific, Chair. [29:07] You have asked a question, was there a BQ? [29:11] No, he was explaining something, and we have follow-up questions. [29:14] I think, Chair, you allow him to proceed. [29:16] Okay, please. [29:17] I'll give you three minutes. [29:18] Here, we like to give people enough room to hang themselves. [29:21] Honourable Chair, what we have done in the document is that we wanted an office block. [29:26] In simple terms, we wanted somewhere to sit, like this room. [29:29] So we give a specification of what we want. [29:32] Then the owner of the room will give their price, what they can offer. [29:38] So we had a specification of exactly what we needed, and that's what we had put in the tender document. [29:42] Did you have a budget? [29:44] Because the budget then drives the kind of stuff you're looking for. [29:47] Here in Nairobi, you can decide to sit at Delta, you can decide to sit in Lovington, [29:52] or you can decide to sit on River Road, depending on your budget. [29:55] So when you went to market, what was your budget? [29:58] Also, Chair, because when you're building a county headquarters, [30:02] you're essentially looking for a space that can accommodate the county executive. [30:06] You know your staff establishment, the sort of numbers of the people that you need. [30:10] You can't just say you're looking for a space to sit, [30:12] because the ultimate intention, from what I gather, [30:16] is to have one central place where the entire county government is. [30:19] So that cannot be something that is left to the tenant purchase service provider, [30:24] that I'm looking for a three-bedroom house, and then he tells me he has a two-bedroom in Burubur. [30:28] So, maybe before he answers that particular question, [30:33] the county secretary was at the forefront of providing, [30:37] it was a very detailed process. [30:39] Maybe we haven't expressed it well enough. [30:42] Because of the magnitude of the project, we wanted to cover every ground. [30:47] So, I want to ask the county secretary on the question that the senator is asking around the issue of, [30:55] did we just go and say we want a space? [30:56] Because I remember we had several meetings with officers, departments, cabinet, everybody. [31:03] County secretary, just on that specific one. [31:08] County secretary, just in two minutes. [31:11] Professor. [31:12] Thank you, Chair. [31:15] What we did first was to assess the number of people that need to occupy this space. [31:19] And we looked at all those who need to sit at the headquarters. [31:23] We are not including those who are sitting at the sound counties. [31:26] And then from there, we knew also different cadres of officers. [31:29] We have the CCMs, we have the chief officers, we have the directors. [31:33] And we gave very specific instruction on what a director, you know, office need to look like, [31:41] what the CEC office need to look like. [31:43] And based on this, we counted all the spaces that are required, [31:47] plus the number of people who are required, and that's what we put in the tender. [31:50] But in your mind, you didn't have, because if you have all those specifications, [31:55] then you cannot fail to have a cost specification. [31:59] For money, it will go to the chief officer, sorry, the CEC, [32:04] but mine was to, how many people need to sit there, [32:07] what type of space that they need, and from there we could do the estimates. [32:11] Members, I think also for neatness of this, [32:15] for neatness of this, we must set up a separate meeting. [32:18] And also the County Pension Fund must be here. [32:22] Yeah, we must set up a separate meeting, [32:24] because we might come to conclusions without interrogating all the facets. [32:31] We must look at the legality and the constitutionality of this approach, [32:36] and we must also look at the procurement elements. [32:40] And we must thoroughly test this model, [32:44] such that if we find it to be lawful and constitutional and prudent, [32:49] we can make a recommendation to other counties to follow the same model. [32:54] I believe we will be better off as a Senate, [32:58] or the people of Homa Bay will be better off, [33:01] if you have a proper detailed inquiry, [33:03] where the procurement officer is not just talking off the cuff, [33:08] he's talking on the basis of professional documents, [33:11] professional opinions, and procedures that were there too. [33:13] I don't know what you feel. [33:15] And Chair, you know, when I looked at the profile of the County Secretary, [33:21] he's a professor, an engineer, [33:23] I thought that should be more detailed, but then time doesn't allow. [33:26] Really, we start with the architectural design, [33:28] then engineers' estimates and everything, I thought you'd give us that. [33:32] But as Chair, you rule that let's have opportunity [33:36] to give the county government enough time to explain this model, [33:39] because then that can be given to other counties [33:45] to also use to have the infrastructure in place. [33:50] Yeah, if time was on our side, we would have spent more time on it. [33:53] The county pension fund, they should be here, [33:57] and also the issue of repayment, [33:59] because that has not been answered, Chair. [34:02] And also... [34:03] You asked something around securitization. [34:04] Securitization of revenue, and now that payment will be done. [34:08] And I have seen the report also of health and occupation. [34:13] It is just one page. [34:14] So I don't know. [34:15] There is a principle of... [34:18] I've seen the department that approve occupation [34:23] is a part of the departments in the county. [34:26] So maybe those are questions we can further inquire into, [34:29] so that when Wambua becomes the governor, [34:32] he can borrow this model. [34:34] Senator Wambua? [34:35] Senator Wambua and your opposition with me becoming governor [34:38] is now, I don't know. [34:40] So, Chair, I think, first of all, we must also... [34:46] Governor Gladys, you know, these are 2023 arrangements, [34:52] if I got it right. [34:55] Personally, from where I sit, I must give it to you [34:58] that between 2023 and 2026, 2025, you have a block. [35:05] I mean, let's begin from there. [35:07] Yeah? [35:08] There are counties like some that are seated next to me [35:13] that started their projects. [35:18] Chair, you know, you can't compare. [35:20] I'm sorry to say... [35:21] I thought Sifuna is also sitting there. [35:23] I don't know why you're jittery. [35:25] Don't compare. [35:26] By the way, credit to Omar. [35:29] You know, if you go to Nyamira, [35:31] we started our county headquarters in 2013. [35:34] We have spent close to what she has spent, [35:37] but we have nothing. [35:38] So I'm just sitting here quiet. [35:41] And that's why if this is the right model, [35:43] we can export it to other counties. [35:45] By the way, this gentleman, the lawyer, [35:48] should read... [35:48] Chair, have you taken the floor from me? [35:50] Should read... [35:51] You know, if you read how United States acquired Luciana, [35:56] it was purchased by Thomas Jefferson in 1803. [36:00] And he was faced with what I had the gentleman trying to explain, [36:04] the strict or liberal interpretation of the Constitution. [36:07] Because Jefferson needed to summon Congress [36:10] to authorize his borrowing. [36:12] But he thought, [36:13] because America needed to acquire that territory [36:16] and River Mississippi, [36:18] he bought the territory [36:19] and sought to explain to Congress what he did later. [36:22] I think that's what Governor Obama Bay has done. [36:25] So let's say... [36:27] If... [36:27] If... [36:29] I thought he was being helpful. [36:34] If, you know, [36:37] if in all fairness, [36:40] you know, [36:40] if you pick the case of Omadi [36:41] and the case of Nyamira, [36:44] if the case of CPF can work, [36:47] the way it has worked, [36:48] if it can deliver an office within six months, [36:51] I'd rather go this route [36:52] than go through what is happening in Nyamira. [36:55] We don't have county headquarters. [36:57] We are housed by the county... [37:00] I mean, how do you call it? [37:03] The provincial administration then. [37:05] The county commissioner. [37:06] The county commissioner. [37:06] That's where we are housed. [37:07] So... [37:08] Take back your mic. [37:10] So I agree with you that let's interrogate... [37:12] Bring back in my mouth. [37:13] Let's interrogate these... [37:14] All angles. [37:15] If CPF can deliver within six months, [37:17] I'll pick that model. [37:20] That's okay. [37:20] Now, what we say after this [37:22] may not be on record [37:23] because it's already 2.30. [37:25] So I was trying to say, [37:28] Governor, [37:29] for bringing up that facility [37:31] within that period of time, [37:33] and it's there, [37:34] you know, [37:35] it's not a ghost. [37:36] It's there. [37:36] It's a facility. [37:37] I think for that, [37:39] really, [37:40] you must be commended. [37:41] But then, you know, [37:42] there is a process. [37:44] And it will be very good for you [37:46] to come at some point [37:49] and talk to us as a Senate [37:51] on that process that you used [37:54] and see whether that process [37:57] can also be used in other counties. [38:02] Nyamira is talking, yeah, [38:03] if Nandi starts to speak, [38:04] you will hear very interesting things. [38:06] But really, [38:09] we must also stick to the law. [38:11] You know, [38:11] there is a law [38:12] and the law must be followed. [38:13] So, Chair, [38:14] let's find time [38:15] to engage on this issue. [38:17] If for me, [38:18] where is it? [38:19] If this is a model [38:19] that can be used [38:22] when I become [38:24] what Senator Cherage [38:26] always keeps saying [38:27] I will become, [38:28] then I can use this model [38:29] to do a lot of things, [38:30] a lot of things. [38:31] So let's be sure [38:32] that we are [38:33] on the right side of this. [38:35] Yeah, [38:35] unlocking domestic resources, [38:37] particularly from pension funds, [38:39] it's a big conversation, [38:40] even in the global arena. [38:42] A lot of pension fund money [38:43] sits idle [38:44] and we can be creative around it. [38:47] But as we said, [38:48] it must be in compliance [38:49] with the law. [38:52] Now, [38:52] do we agree [38:53] that this is an important matter [38:55] that goes beyond [38:56] Homa Bay County [38:57] that would require us [38:59] to have a conversation, [39:00] find out from Treasury [39:02] why they didn't give [39:03] the no objection letter, [39:05] find out from CPF [39:07] their perspective [39:08] of the matter [39:09] and also from [39:10] the county government [39:11] of Homa Bay [39:11] and if there's [39:12] any other county government, [39:16] Article 201, [39:17] Article 212 [39:18] and all those things. [39:19] This requires [39:20] a separate inquiry. [39:22] We have dealt [39:24] with just a few [39:25] of the issues [39:25] that were in the report. [39:27] There were one [39:28] or two other things [39:29] that we would have dealt with [39:30] if time allowed. [39:31] We would have wanted [39:32] to look at [39:33] your on-source revenue report [39:35] which is fairly good [39:37] compared to other counties. [39:40] We would have wanted [39:41] to find out [39:41] the measures [39:42] you're putting in place [39:43] to deal with the 55% [39:47] that you're paying [39:48] on HR [39:49] and a few other residual matters. [39:51] We will advise [39:52] on how we'll deal [39:53] with those matters [39:54] because I know [39:55] the auditors [39:56] are almost coming [39:57] for the in-year audit. [39:58] I don't know [39:59] whether they're coming [39:59] this month [40:00] or next month. [40:02] This month [40:03] we have already started [40:04] some of the end clients. [40:06] Yes. [40:06] It's in progress. [40:07] So we'll advise you [40:08] because some of these things [40:09] can be within the scope [40:11] of the audit [40:12] for 25-26. [40:14] There are a number [40:14] of prior year matters [40:15] that we have not dealt with [40:17] that are still outstanding. [40:18] The projects, [40:19] the Kigoto, [40:20] the animal feed project, [40:22] all that. [40:22] let's make sure [40:23] that they don't get lost [40:24] in your audit [40:26] for 25-26. [40:28] But this one [40:29] on the tenant purchase scheme [40:32] is something [40:33] that is topical [40:34] that we must deal with [40:36] even as the audit goes on. [40:38] Honourable members, [40:39] any closing remarks?