Fireworks as Gov Gladys Wanga Meets Sifuna and other senators face to face in senate committee

[0:00] truth and nothing but the truth so help me god mr chairman sir i hereby table the following [0:19] documents before the committee uh the management responses and accompanying annexures on the [0:25] report of the auditor general on the county executive for the year 2024 2025 management [0:32] responses and accompany annexures on the report of the auditor general on the receiver of revenue [0:37] statements for the county executive for the financial year 24 25 management responses and [0:45] accompanying annexures on the report of the auditor general on the county revenue fund for the county [0:50] executive for the financial year 2024 2025 thank you may i find out from the auditor general whether [1:02] you have reviewed the documents and you're in you're able to proceed yeah thank you share we [1:08] confirm that we received the responses and the supporting evidences and we are ready to continue [1:13] and clerk of the senate thank you chair yes i can confirm we received the documents on 9th [1:19] june as prescribed in uh or later inviting omar bay county to appear before this committee today thank [1:24] you okay so before we proceed um in our invitation letter we conveyed the decision of the senate on [1:32] the tuesday the 31st of march 2026 during which the senate considered the reports of the county public [1:39] accounts committee on the consideration of the report of the auditor general on the financial [1:43] statements of the county executive of homer bay for financial year 2024 2025 the report of the receiver [1:49] of revenue and the report on the county revenue fund just to summarize the senate adopted the report of [1:56] the auditor general as is because the county executive of homer bay did not present themselves before the [2:04] committee secondly the senate resolved to invite the governor of homer bay to appear before this committee [2:11] to provide an outline of measures being taken to close the non-conformances highlighted by the auditor [2:18] general and thirdly the senate resolved to impose a fine of 500 000 shillings on the governor in her [2:25] personal capacity i want to find out from the clerk of the senate whether the fine of 500 000 has been [2:32] paid thank you chair yes i can confirm that the final 500 000 has already been paid i think if that is the [2:39] case then we should be able to proceed to consider the measures taken by the county executive of homer bay [2:46] to close the issues raised by the auditor general since the public accounts committee chair of the [2:53] county assembly is present let me find out whether as a county assembly you have considered the report on [3:02] the county executive the report on the receiver of revenue and the report on the county revenue fund [3:07] and whether the house has made any resolutions uh thank you 100 chair uh we've done so and afforded [3:16] the same deliberations to the senate thank you clark have you uh are you in receipt of the resolution [3:22] of the house on the three reports chair i've not cited those resolutions but um i'll check them out [3:28] then get back to the committee okay i think going forward it would be very useful uh if the time the [3:36] notice is received for this appearance if the assembly has made a resolution that those resolutions are [3:42] shared with the senate early so that we don't ask the same questions twice so if they had been circulated [3:48] earlier they would have formed the basis or they would have formed part of our conversation today [3:55] however it's good to know if they were done within the statutory timelines of march at first because [4:03] then cannot consider them if they're done outside that timeline what was the date of adoption they [4:09] were done within the the timeline and the same was worded i i believe so okay we'll i think when we [4:16] retreat to write our report we'll make reference to the report of the county assembly but that does [4:21] not stop us from uh proceeding with our inquiry today unless there is any preliminary matter and looking [4:29] at the time knowing that by two-thirds we should be the chamber um senator achiraki chair you know [4:36] wage bill in most counties including uh omar bay counties is quite high but i know that's an issue my [4:43] only concern governor i've noticed you have unusually high number of your senior officers as acting capacity [4:52] so my question is why and number two whether there is a functional uh county public service board [4:59] uh so if you can answer why most of them are acting and i find it strange that the the example [5:06] who's i introduce himself as dgs designate so i don't know what's that what that stands for if [5:12] you can highlight because the issue of your chair is very critical and if you find people acting capacity [5:18] of course under the law they have limitation of execution so governor can you give us the reason as to why [5:25] a number of your senior delegation are in acting capacity can i give guidance that there's a [5:33] substantive audit finding on employees on acting capacity for periods exceeding six months we can [5:39] discuss we can address that when we get to that substantive matter thank you thank you senator so [5:45] let's go to the report on the of the auditor general starting with the report on the county [5:50] executive and time allowing we'll also be able to look at the receiver of revenue report auditor [5:58] general what was your opinion thank you share uh the opinion is qualified opinion auditor general read [6:18] out your opinion and then we go to the basis of the opinion yeah thank you uh the report of the [6:28] financial year 2024 25 and the report of financial settlements is qualified opinion and the basis of [6:34] the qualified opinions uh one is the issue of the water vehicles uh without okay so so let me give [6:41] guidance now that you have read out the opinion because you had spent almost one and a half hours [6:46] with a brief there are things there are issues that we have already gotten a brief having perused the [6:52] responses from the county so your first issue was three motor vehicles without logbooks do you now [7:00] have the logbooks because these are very straightforward matter yeah we have logbooks and the issue has already [7:06] been addressed and in your view as an auditor this is a matter that has been addressed yes um i know [7:14] there could be many questions why they were not produced during the time of audit and all that but [7:20] i think we have got section 62 of the public audit act which we will be making recommendations on but [7:26] because there are much more substantive issues in this report i think since during that brief the auditor [7:33] general has told us the matters addressed maybe let's tick them and then we can deal with the global issue [7:39] on why documents were not provided during the time of audit so the logbooks have been provided [7:46] unsupported expenditure on kindubay showground wall thank you sir the payment that voucher has already [7:52] been provided and the issue has also been addressed so you had you had requested for a payment voucher [8:00] which was not present at the time of audit but it has been subsequently produced yes in terms of [8:08] verification in terms of dating of the payment voucher what assurance are you giving the senate as to the [8:15] authenticity of that payment voucher here we confirm that the payment voucher is authentic and we have [8:20] also confirmed in terms of the approvals that has already been done and there's an appendix for that [8:26] okay and supported expenditure on fuel usage yeah thank you sir this has also been addressed there's a [8:34] departmental fuel register has already been provided uh and detailed and that again there's an appendix 3a [8:40] which supported that but when you say that instructions were given verbally how how is that corrected how [8:48] how how has the county corrected that are they correcting going forward or just just and at this [8:56] point i think chair it is good to know why the documents if they were there on the expenditure of [9:03] fuel why they were not uh produced during the time of audit then we can deal globally with that [9:10] justification because the law requires justification okay since we've been uh fairly efficient and we've [9:17] already ticked off about uh two or three issues maybe let's put this to the test we asked the ultra [9:23] general to read his finding and then the county government to respond and then we just see whether [9:29] the measures put in place address the concern therein auditor please read your finding there yeah thank [9:40] you share uh 2.1 unsupported expenditure on the fuel usage including this balance of questioning 43 million [9:47] 461 1651 in card oil and lubricants however review of the fuel management controls and the procedure [9:55] revealed that the county executive did not issue detail orders for the purpose of utilizing and [10:00] managing the group managing the drawing of the fuel at the petrol station the instruction to draw the [10:06] fuel were given verbally with no record being maintained for comparison between the supplier invoice and the [10:12] amount fuel actually drawn in the circumstances the accuracy and the completeness and the validity of the [10:17] expenditure of the expenditure of kenya shillings 43 million 461 651 on fuel oil lubricant will not be [10:24] confirmed governor you may read your response management management wishes to state that the expenditure of [10:35] kenya shillings 43 million 461 651 on fuel oil and lubricants were fully supported by all requisite [10:44] approvals in accordance with the pfm county government's regulations 2015 the approvals included [10:50] authorization by designated officers and approved detailed orders supported by work tickets and supplier [10:59] receipts all of which are really were duly recorded in the fuel registers and extracts of fuel register and [11:07] sample detail orders have been availed for audit verification appendix 3a departmental fuel register extracts [11:15] detail orders work tickets and fuel receipts and 3b is administrative action which is memo on fuel management [11:24] and warning lecture for failure to submit documents thank you chair okay auditor since you are our eye on [11:35] the ground you said that the county did not issue detailed orders for the purpose of authorizing and [11:44] managing the drawing of fuel at the petrol station now you're telling us it is now resolved what what [11:50] which one which appendix resolves it yeah thank you chair if you look at the departmental fuel register [11:59] and the detail orders which also has now the approvals uh you see at the point of the audit we requested [12:04] this information and it has not been available so for us of course the vehicle has to draw the fuels [12:09] so that support of that documentation is missing but look at that appendix 3a where there's a departmental [12:14] of fuel registers and detail orders that already covered and also the work tickets has given some [12:19] assurance chair we can see the separate 3a document appendix 1 24c now i just wanted to follow up on [12:39] the audit you said they produced a sample of a card for withdrawing the fuel did you say that because [12:49] what is on 3a it's only the internal memo through the chair i have it here yeah what what i can see is [13:07] only the internal memo signed by solomon obiero now if i may follow up uh uh governor apart from the [13:18] internal member you have something like a kind of card for each vehicle because that would be assisting you to [13:27] control the usage of fuel to go to the petrol station to fuel your vehicle you have anything like that [13:37] thank you chairman uh uh yeah just a minute uh governor senator said maybe she can take both [13:43] together uh governor from your response you're basically telling us that uh county government [13:50] vehicles are fueled on a phone call or uh how is it done just explain to us because you're saying uh [13:56] the the auditor is saying the instructions to draw fuel were given verbally and i heard you saying that [14:03] there were designated people who make those phone calls or who have to go physically to those petrol [14:07] stations and essentially say jaza imi ambi something like that so just clarify for me what the process is [14:14] there and then how we can be able to to know that these people are authorized to to give that senator [14:20] charity chair i've seen a number of uh being issued by i think as petrol station so the governor should [14:29] give us uh because i've seen a number around us uh petrol station the prequalification process or how [14:38] many companies are supposed to supply fuel and uh senator nairobi has said whether there is a specific [14:47] issuance of card and chair with your indulgence on the previous question on kendu bay i've seen in [14:55] the response of the governor he has only accounted for 10 million against 21 million so i'm requesting [15:01] with your indulgence if we dispense of this matter she can go back because from my response and like [15:07] what she can only account for 10 million against 21 million for the kendu bay war so i wanted you to [15:13] note so that we can go back thank you i yield back chair just for order chair in three i'm not able [15:20] to see the separate file maybe the governor can point us to that um separate file separate oh that is [15:28] the one okay okay thank you chair okay governor you may so sorry senator so chair mine would just be [15:38] maybe a simple one on the invoices governor the invoices that i'm seeing from up in the three years [15:50] all of them actually i think without exception from a single service provider or contractor or petrol [16:01] station i i don't know maybe this is the only one that supplies fuel to vehicles in the county [16:13] government of omar bay you just explain that that's why okay it would be useful even as you respond to [16:23] also take us through just explain what happened x3a means because i'm seeing some documents that are [16:30] either ineligible or blank but you can respond to the earlier questions raised by the senators [16:39] uh thank you chair uh what we are providing another appendix 3a in response to the auditor's uh question [16:48] on how the fuel process happens is we are providing the depart extracts of departmental fuel register [16:57] extracts detailed orders which is what you use to go and fuel not by a phone call work tickets which [17:07] the drivers provide and fuel receipts so what we have provided here is evidence that there is a process [17:16] and we've provided them department by department not all of them but extracts of them that there is a process [17:23] that each department has for purposes of acquiring uh fuel on the issue of the invoices um yes there is invoices [17:33] from the has petroleum there are invoices from zamzam uh uh patrol station there are invoices from shell [17:43] these are the patrol stations that are predominantly uh in in in homer bay so it is not a single it is not a single uh [17:52] patrol station uh cc finance if you have anything to add yeah and a cc finance response you probably [18:00] want to even take a sample because i can see the first placeholder here is education and then just [18:09] help us understand what those pages with regards to education what you're trying to say and how it [18:18] confirms the process thank you chair uh with respect to education on the first page we have uh the [18:30] voucher number the account details uh the item description that is the product that we are consuming [18:39] from the particular petrol station chair it indicates the pay which is the person giving the product and [18:48] the payment date and amount and that is the department of education chair the second page just under the [19:00] department of education we have a payment voucher which has now been drawn uh in favor of house petroleum [19:09] who having given us a supply of oil and lubricants uh cc the concern was initiation yes the concern was [19:26] initiation so pv comes at the end thank you seats come at the end can you demonstrate that the initiation [19:32] was not verbal as uh as as the auditor says thank you chair if we go to uh cylinder education the first [19:43] detail order in favor of us petroleum this detail order is drawn from the department and the person that [19:51] is going to draw fuel needs to go which which is a detailed order which chair after the payment voucher [20:00] how many pages after payment voucher are two pages so the third page okay so you can explain that so [20:14] the the document that authorizes one to draw fuel uh from the petrol station is a detailed order this [20:22] detail order is developed uh from the department and it's newly approved uh to enable one to go to [20:29] neighbor driver to go drove well from the petrol station help me understand uh cc because i can see [20:39] that detail order you're speaking of is it the number three eleven seven two six eight yes how do i know [20:47] which vehicle is going to be fueled uh chair uh the vehicle that is going to fuel uh from that document [20:56] of first the lpo number that is referenced uh 43 uh 80 81 57 567 uh will be uh indicating when we go to [21:11] that we'll be indicating a particular vehicle but also on the invoice the vehicle that has fueled the [21:17] vehicle registration number we are at initiation yes we are still i just want to understand the process [21:23] yeah this detail order how do i know it is for uh 43 cg 036a uh chair uh it is supposed to be on it is [21:34] on the detail order actually but where the stamp is for the department of education you can see a 43 [21:40] somewhere unfortunately it is not very clear but that 43 is exposed with the invoice down here 43 cg 036a [21:52] is there is there any other detail order which is clearer so that we are not hypothesizing that [21:59] it's supposed to be where the stamp is in fact you have put the stamp every on all those invoices [22:05] you have put a stamp where we're supposed to see the vehicle now is it a coincidence [22:13] and even chair the way the payment voucher has been written it's less because even on the words they [22:20] have just written 200 you know but they only in in numbers they have written 200 000 but in [22:27] in writing is 200 we don't know whether it's 200 000 or 200 in payment so even if you look at the [22:35] payment voucher cc and you are the ones who write this is lessness the one on after after the third [22:46] after even the first one in your separate document is there is there is there any order that that you [22:55] can refer to that yes can you use this one to explain to me three three one one seven two seven eight [23:06] voucher i think is the last detail order before blue economy before blue economy so that we understand [23:18] the process so thank you senator thank you chair uh so 43 cg 253a is on the detailed order uh detail [23:31] order number three one one seven two seven eight the vehicle is drawing diesel the date that the vehicle [23:44] has gone to draw the name of the vendor and the amount of fuel that is drawn in letters after that detail [24:00] order we have an invoice that the vendor gives which will go to the file what's the amount of the [24:11] invoice 70 liters the amount of money uh this is supposed to be 11 000 but it says that in terms [24:25] that 13 288 but this is rub there 11 627 even it says 700 liters [24:33] uh so that you can you breathe in and out so that you can answer properly you are confusing us thank [24:48] you honorable senator uh this is it the 13 288 is the value of the fuel drawn for 70 liters at a cost [24:58] uh of 166 cc uh chair with your permission can i can i give you my copy because i think maybe you [25:09] have a clearer copy for us to follow what you're saying because on the face of that invoice and [25:14] governor you can just look at it there's a problem with that invoice where are you reading because mine [25:24] actually from where i sit it says 700 liters it has been uh what is it called amended the total amount [25:34] there i can't even make out what this figure is uh the only figure that is clear here is 13 288 [25:41] in the middle of the invoice but at the bottom there it says total uh cc do you have a better copy [25:46] than mine uh honorable chair and senator we have uh i think the same copy i believe and the fuel drawn [25:55] from the detail order is 70 liters the this invoice could have not been 700 because from the detail [26:02] order it is indicated 70 liters so the service provider can only give us a maximum so chair uh [26:09] cc don't defend the indefensible there's a problem with this uh invoice and the more you try to explain [26:15] it the more questions you're going to get there's obviously a problem here so let us stick to let us [26:20] stick to to your 70 liters um cc yeah the unit cost is what from your record it's 166.1 is it really yes [26:45] yes yes read the unit cost for me the unit cost is 166.1 now multiply 166.1 by 70. what do you get we [27:06] get uh that will give us 166.1 i am 70 70. what do you get just read i mean what you get is what you [27:21] get you know 166.1 times 70 11 000 of 166.1 times 70 11 627 what is your figure in the invoice uh 13 288 [27:46] where do you get the variance chair the the what i can see from the face of this invoice uh these are [27:56] rubbing there so it's 11 627 on the end but then 13 288 in the middle so there's obviously a discrepancy [28:05] between what is at the end column and in the middle of the invoice so i think there is a discrepancy [28:11] on that invoice but chair coming back to the process which was uh the question and i i i see that [28:18] discrepancy between the the two figures and i think the vendor who gave the invoice made that [28:25] made that error and it was uh attached here right from the vendor without um them correcting it but [28:33] in terms of the process of getting fuel and in terms of coming back to what the auditor had raised [28:40] the fuel is not collected by phone call it is collected through a detailed order that is given to [28:48] the vendor by the department of the detailed order i think earlier what's if senator sifuna had asked [28:53] what on that detailed order shows uh the the the num the car that is going to collect the fuel i think [29:01] the detailed order has the space for uh the number plate of the car and the liters and the department [29:08] that is collecting the fuel thank you chair and uh um we have noted that error in the invoice [29:15] uh senator uh governor governor governor the the query is very clear there is no proper mechanisms in [29:32] place in controlling the usage of fuel and that is very clear uh and i don't actually accept or allow [29:44] the cec and the staff to mislead you because if you look at the invoice that uh attached from has even [29:52] towards the end of um uh the documents or rather the the invoices to trade they're not even very clear [30:02] you see so if your document is very clear and transparent the invoice should be also very clear [30:10] because they are not clear those invoices again most of the listing that is done for the vehicles and [30:17] the the ones that are drawn they are unwritten we know very well anything unwritten can be changed [30:25] any time so i think you need to look into this and see how you can put proper control mechanisms in [30:34] place that can assist you in uh drawing fuel or also accounting for fuel consumption within the county [30:43] i thank you chair chair for me i think i still need to share from the auditor general because you are the [30:49] one who has raised this query where did you where did you experience these orders that were being made [30:55] verbally number two governor this this the the the this appendix 3a is supposed to explain to us for [31:03] instance i've seen what your team has tried to do is that there's a detailed order that is supposed to [31:08] correspond with an invoice yeah but it is very very confusing governor this one should actually raise [31:14] the alarm with you that your team is trying to be clever with us and you see we get very upset when we [31:19] see that if it is possible cc i just want to demonstrate one final thing that uh there is a [31:26] detail order number 3 11 7283 i don't know if you can find it and unfortunately this time around governor [31:33] you did not paginate your documents so it's it's we have to find it uh slowly 31 17283 are we are we [31:44] together first of all governor just look at that detail order just look at it the way it looks first you [31:52] notice the famous stamp is not on this one there is we were told a story of a stamp that was covering [32:01] up the the number of the vehicle so if you look at the the quantity there what figure is that i can [32:13] see the word patrol cc what is the figure on that uh detail order the amount of fuel that is going to be [32:21] sourced can you see it from your copy that's a five well i can make it out on mine what is the registration [32:30] number of that vehicle where is that four and seven coming from because my copy doesn't have any of [32:41] that thank you senator i think uh you are reading the invoice you're not reading the order we have [32:48] we have 43 cg 247 except uh at the time of probably making a copy for this file the seven is missing [32:59] but it seems cut it's evidently that it is cut out of just a photocopy less error my apologies okay so [33:07] whose signature is that because all the others have been seeing at least there is a reason that there's [33:11] somebody who's uh being quoted there hb education or something like that whose signature is that one on [33:19] on 3117 283 this is the signature of uh the person from the department of education authorized [33:27] to draw uh to approve field withdrawal how many do you have in that department how many people are [33:35] authorized to do this document i think we have a maximum of two because one can be out of office [33:42] per department on this 3117 283 who is the person who signed can you tell i would love to consult my [33:51] colleague from the department of education finally what is the date on that 3117 283 22nd of may 2025 [34:03] where's the five again it was left out no it's not left out senator but uh i think it's just to do [34:09] with the copies that were made being that the detail order document the color is yellow when you make [34:16] many copies uh such areas are bound to occur when you make many copies okay we are taking a lot of time [34:22] on this matter it's 42 million out of uh almost 13 billion expenditure for this year and uh when you look at [34:30] the time because governor what was the reason for attaching the internal memo and the letter by the [34:37] cc dated second of february 2026 the reason why you're having a problem with the senators is your [34:45] response to indicate that everything is okay and they are struggling to show you where the gaps are [34:51] and i can see your officers did a memo recommending or saying administrative action shall be taken [34:58] and reminding all officers of the procedures if you would have confined yourself to the measures you [35:04] are taking to improve the process that would have been good enough but if the position is that the [35:09] process is perfect then you're going to get a lot of uh queries on the substance before us so maybe so [35:17] so if the if the if the if it's a perfect exercise then i'll allow my senators to ask questions but if [35:25] it's work in progress and that is your uh submission then we can keep some things in view but let me let [35:32] me hear from senator charade first no chair looking at even uh blue economy the entire invoices that has [35:41] been provided by one of the petrol station as you asked is not readable so and then looking at the [35:48] discrepancy governor of this amount it might look small but how many kenyans can get 2 000 per day so [35:56] it is chair it looks like this thing was a manufactured unless proven otherwise and in fact [36:04] i don't know who is robert nia sooner this robert nia sooner i thought it's a somebody who works for [36:10] the county and governor they must do due diligence because these are very critical so governor maybe [36:17] you would consider striking out these invoices which are not readable until you get so that it can form [36:24] basis of answering this question okay members to ensure that we are not broke down as uh in in in [36:30] an audit because the facts as presented indicate there's a problem unless the governor disputes just [36:35] finally for me i i am not convinced when the cec says there is only two people designated because [36:41] just from the sample of those same documents if you just look at the signatures from 3 11 72 83 [36:48] to 82 to 78 those are at least three distinct signatures uh cec so my expectation governor would [36:56] be to see a document of designation saying uh in this department sifuna is authorized to issue this [37:03] detail orders so that we can be able to compare from my reading here there is more than one person [37:09] signing these documents it's creating a problem okay governor chairman i wanted to concur with you that [37:17] the reason why we appended the memos and the administrative action is because of continuous improvement [37:27] of the process including the testing of the card system or any other system that can do what we wanted [37:33] to demonstrate by these documents was that there is a process that is not necessarily available is a [37:42] a detailed order and an invoicing process but it is not a perfect process it is a work in progress and [37:48] that is why the cec has written a memo reminding the officers that they must adhere to the strict [37:59] process in the fuel in the management of fuel so so members this is a matter that because the in-year [38:04] audit i think is beginning auditor general you must also be more rigorous because your advice says earlier [38:10] that the matter is resolved but you know upon testing you find that there are variances this is a matter [38:15] that you must must must main open and you must adequately uh look at in the next uh cycle of [38:21] audits senator moribu chair maybe because the auditors marked it as addressed and we need to agree [38:28] with him to resolve it because of the part of justification why the documents are not given during [38:34] the time of audit maybe the cec i think who is the who is the person supposed to give the documents [38:40] card in one or two sentences tell us where the documents were if they are there why they're not [38:45] given and then okay that warrants a very brief answer i'm very very conscious of the time thank you [38:55] senator appendix uh 3b update appendix 3b uh we've taken administrative action on the officers that didn't [39:05] avail the documents to the auditor on time yeah yes 3b administrative action the question asked [39:42] is different from the answer you're giving because the senator has asked where were the documents at [39:47] the time of audit and why were they not produced because administrative action is taken at the tail end [39:53] but since we have agreed that is a matter that remains open it's not resolved as indicated by the [39:57] auditor general we'll keep the matter in view and ask the auditor general to do a more thorough analysis [40:03] but then again governor internally you have seen some of the weaknesses in terms of record keeping [40:08] and it's something that you need to go back and have a conversation with your team on [40:12] to ensure that it's a much more foolproof exercise now members i'd ask that we move on [40:20] to the next issue there's an issue of payment of electricity bills [40:24] share with your indulgence i know the the the the oeg had said uh 21.27 million had been accounted [40:34] for the expenditure of kendu bay shore ground wall but looking at the management response the governor [40:41] says that she can only account for 10.4 million so my question is although the is indeed the governor [40:48] indicates that the program that the construction is ongoing and then what is the fate of the other 10 [40:55] million because looking at the management response if the governor can can clarify that or is it that [41:02] the oeg should have uh clarified on 10.4 million instead of 21.2 million in the payment of kendu bay [41:13] shore ground one okay this is a straightforward governor the amount where it was um 21 million [41:20] in your response you have talked of 10.4 million what happens to the remaining 11 million uh thank you [41:29] chairman chairman uh the contract sum was 21 million to 17 151 the progress the project is ongoing and [41:39] uh the amount that has been paid is 10 million for 11 561 that is what we indicated in the response [41:45] um but and the project is still ongoing auditor general when you say 21 million was spent does that [41:52] mean that uh there was evidence of actual payments of 21 million no sure that was the contract sum amount [41:58] you know if you look in terms of the disclosures the 21 million 217 was the contract sum for for the [42:04] kind of a show ground yeah but we requested for the detail to support the language is important when you say [42:09] spent it denotes payments it denotes payments i mean you would have said 21 million contract sum so you [42:19] can confirm that 21 million was a contract sum not an actual expenditure no so the actual expenditure is [42:26] 10 million 10 million yes and the project is still ongoing yes still in progress governor the project is [42:32] still ongoing uh yes chairman it's ongoing we have uh we have put in the pictures uh chairman of the progress on [42:40] the project so then to avoid belaboring the point we can keep it in view we keep it in view it remains [42:46] unresolved i want us to skip one or two uh matters and we'll come back to them if time allows and i'll [42:58] perhaps give guidance that we jump to the section on lawfulness and effectiveness in the use of public [43:04] resource where we have the issues to do with the fif uh pending bills and human resource and then we'll [43:13] come back to a few and resolve prior year matters which form part of this report under appendix one [43:20] honorable members we go to the section on lawfulness and effectiveness and deal with the non-compliance [43:30] with facility improvement financing act of 2023 auditor general you may read your findings yeah thank [43:40] you share yeah proceed yeah thank you share non-compliant with the facility improvement financing act 2023 [43:52] the review of the revenue records obtained from the level four and level five health facilities [43:57] in homer bay county revealed that 24 health facilities collected a total of 1 billion 616 [44:04] million 696 509 toward the health facility improvements out of this amount a total of [44:11] commissioning 915 million 941 705 was transferred to the special purpose account at the health department [44:20] however the special purpose account reimbursed a total of commissioning 607 million 7504 to the health [44:28] facility resulting to a deficit of commissioning 228 million 904 220. this was contrary to section 5 [44:37] 1 of the finance facility improvement financing act 2023 which requires that all monies raised or [44:43] received on the behalf of the public health facilities be retained the hospital facilities improvement [44:48] financing account in addition failure to reimburse the total amount transferred by the facility [44:54] negatively impacted on the service delivery by the health facilities in the circumstances the [44:59] management of the county executive was in breach of the law thank you share governor you may respond [45:06] chair chair just on a point of order if you allow i have seen at the pictures of kendu bay [45:13] showground the wall looks complete except the gates but looking at the amount that is being used for [45:21] whirling vis-a-vis the land it doesn't tally because if i look at the land it might come to around [45:28] three to five million why would you use and it looks dissolute why would you let's let's do this [45:34] let's deal with this fif and then we the governor responds then we can come back to the showground [45:39] yeah governor you may proceed thank you sherman management wishes to clarify that under the homer [45:51] bay county facility improvement fund facility improvement financing act 2023 [45:57] the county government is required to retain 20 percent of collections from level 4 and level [46:03] 5 health facilities consequently out of the 915 915 million 941 725 collected and transferred to the [46:14] fif special account by the hospitals 183 million 188 345 was lawfully retained and utilized within the health [46:24] care care sector to fund the following programs supervision of public health facilities supporting [46:30] level 2 and level 3 hospitals and supply of commodities to hospitals while the balance of 687 007 504 was [46:39] reimbursed to the facilities during the financial year as at june 20 20 25 45 million 745 875 remained [46:52] unreimbursed and reimbursed and formed part of the cash and cash equivalents balance of 76 million 144 115 [47:01] disclosed in the special purpose account bank statement however the funds were later reimbursed to [47:07] facilities in july 2025 as per the schedule attached in the appendix 7b management confirms that the funds were [47:16] retained managed and accounted for in accordance with the relevant legal framework and fully disclosed in the [47:22] financial statements um we have appendices 7a extract copy of the county fif act of 2023 7b special [47:33] purpose account bank certificate as at 30th june 2025 and disbursement schedules 7c extract of bank statements [47:42] showing reimbursement of 45 million 745 875 and 7d chair is homer bay county amendment bill 2026 which [47:53] is the proposed bill so that the county bill conforms with the national fif bill auditor general you [48:04] cited violation of the law what is the position yeah thank you share here the issues about the national [48:15] law the fif act 2023 which requires all the funds to be retained the facility yes that is what you've said [48:24] so i've asked you you have listened to the response from the county government what is your advice or on the [48:30] basis of that response what is your opinion on the basis of that response yeah thank you share uh there [48:40] is of course we'll need to be guided but if there is a conflicting between the county government laws [48:44] and the national government laws and the national government laws so in that scenario then they need [48:48] to amend their finance uh the the act uh at the home so that it can be aligned to the national and i've [48:55] seen some county already has taken some initiative in terms of mending yeah i think auditor you need just to be [49:00] forthright and tell the county that you have breached the law don't go around they have breached the [49:06] law and that's that's the situation uh honorable members any follow-up question on this senator [49:14] yeah i just um to understand where governors are coming from what is the rationale behind retaining the [49:22] 20 percent governor uh chairman when we did the facilities infrastructure or facility improvement [49:33] financing bill uh for the counties there was a standard law that was uh done by the counties and [49:39] circulated which we used which retained for purposes one of supervision two of support for lower level [49:48] facilities within the jurisdiction or catchment of the level four facilities that was the uh rationale for [49:56] the for the retention which was countrywide it was done it was a law done by it was a template given to all [50:03] counties which we just domesticated uh in homerby as well i'm raising this issue because some of these [50:12] issues especially on health you know we can have a conversation cog senators if it makes logic that you [50:20] need to retain the 20 percent we can amend the national law you know because at times when we have a [50:27] conversation we understand what is beneficial to the people we all serve that's why i was asking i need [50:33] to understand the rationale behind the retention so you may consider also engaging us that because we [50:39] can amend the national law if retaining 20 percent will improve provision of health to our people [50:46] remember remember honorable senators we passed this law and we are sitting in turkana at senate machine and [50:52] and the intent of this was to ensure that if money is collected from a facility that money is plowed back [50:58] there yes remember the county still has other budgets other revenues or equitable share that [51:05] comes in that can do all those other functions but in the hierarchy of laws national law is superior to [51:14] county law and i think if there is need to have that conversation i think these are the things that [51:23] the senate can be engaged in but that there is mitigation how are you handling uh fif in this [51:33] financial year 25 26. chair in addition so that governor i'm at note number 14a on detail analysis of [51:43] cash and cash equivalents i'm looking at the the different bank accounts that has been open for various [51:51] facilities that's by 28 29 on the certificate which are these special purpose accounts uh governor if you [52:00] can point out number one on your note 14 a financial statement is addition and finally before you open a [52:10] special purpose account your ccm finance tells you there is a process so where was the justification to open [52:17] special purpose account so that you can retain uh that and maybe i have a different view of what [52:24] my brother senior council senator okonga said i thought the reason we wanted money to be pulled back [52:32] is for efficiency of service delivery at the facility so if counties go back and take again and you know [52:41] the major complaint was that you are taking money to county treasury which is by the time we do requisition [52:48] to get fuel for ambulance or drugs kenyans might have died so i what was the rationale and i'll be [52:54] hesitant that we don't amend that law because it's about health i thought so that you can get money to [53:00] fuel and get it is it is an emergency service so i really want to to understand where the the governor is [53:08] coming from because the wisdom of fif is to have resources flowed back to improve efficiency and service delivery [53:14] at the lowest level of the of the health at that lowest level so chair those will be my three [53:20] follow-up okay let's allow senator lelegue to go on record and then senator thank you chair my name [53:29] is lelegue to visit senator for example member of this committee you're welcome senator senator [53:33] oh sorry sorry senator agataya you chair my name is said it i'm going to retire that i need the member of [53:41] this committee you're welcome uh thank you chair i'm happy you you are saying and my colleagues are [53:48] saying that there are conversations that can happen between um the the county governors and the senate [53:57] and and i want to go back to that um fif okay the law is is uh clearly governor the lowest is it has [54:07] been breached as is um the question that i ask myself and i keep asking this question because the county [54:15] governors are the ones who are implementing these things they are the ones who are on the ground [54:20] doing this these things if there are difficulties because i'm seeing a lot of these breaches in [54:26] fif these are a lot of breaches in the wedge bills on painting bills you know in almost every county [54:33] and the question that i ask myself chair is what is the difficulty in the council of governors initiating [54:43] a conversation with the senate on the amendment of the laws i don't take the position that santa [54:51] cherega is cherega is taking that we don't touch the law i mean laws are there to be amended if there's [54:59] need to do to do that what is the difficulty in the cog especially on health matters on fif engaging the [55:08] senate and saying perhaps you have this difficulty in the fif why can we amend amend the law [55:15] um to suit counties across the board together that would be my comment on the fif governor uh [55:25] chair on uh senator wambua's uh point i think um the reason for what the reason uh that uh the national [55:36] law is uh appears to be breached is because of the conflict between the national law and the county law [55:43] in the and the laws that were already uh legislated by by counties and and this was a as i mentioned [55:50] earlier a standard law that all counties legislated and no sooner had we finished uh legislating there [55:57] was a new process and when we input into the new process some of these views were not um were not [56:04] accommodated and uh the national law was then passed but in recognition that the national law um supersedes [56:14] the county laws we are amending our own county laws to conform with the with the national uh law uh for [56:23] the moment there was always the question the fif the the special purpose account uh the senator [56:30] chair gay mentioned of course each facility has an account their own account which which they run on [56:38] their own there was an earlier question of expenditure at source which facilities receive money and they [56:46] spend without any level of control so you will find that a facility has received money rather than [56:55] buy medicine they have maybe prioritized building a gate and that is why those the special purpose account [57:03] created so that when money is sent to the facility account it is sent with an aie and we have formed [57:10] an aie committee that has the cc for health the chief officer for health and the facility in charge so that [57:16] they discuss and agree on what are the priorities and for example they've said priority number one is you [57:22] must buy pharmaceuticals and non-pharmaceuticals before you are allowed to invest in firewood or anything [57:32] else at the facility level so it is exercising some level of um control but ensuring that the facilities [57:39] have their uh resources um to to to expand so chairman on this particular fif we are concluding on amending [57:49] the law we we have attached the revised law for the county so that we can align it with the national law [57:56] so that we can proceed so that the breach is not noted but all of this is for purposes of service [58:03] delivery there is nothing there is no money from health that is not spent on health so governor through [58:11] the chair that that alignment will it happen in all the counties or it's just in omar bay this is what [58:19] omar base is doing and uh the auditor mentioned as the auditor mentioned that many of the other counties are [58:26] also working on their own laws to align it with the national law where this conflict between national [58:32] and county legislation national legislation is the one that applies now before we get lost in the policy [58:41] conversation the numbers are not tying auditor general you are saying the county collected 1.6 billion [58:48] towards health facilities improvement and out of these 915 million was transferred to special purpose [58:56] account let's tie the numbers because the policy issues i think are quite clear the county does not [59:05] refer to 1.6 the county says they collected 915 so which is which for us to be sure that even with [59:13] that irregularity in legislation the numbers are flowing as they ought to be you have said the county [59:21] collected 1.6 billion from 24 health facilities is that the position yes yeah so governor is that the [59:29] position that's collected 1.6 billion from 24 health facilities because if you collected 1.6 billion [59:46] then what what also have been shared between this 20 percent and the rest of the facilities the base [59:53] should be 1.6 billion not 900 million so let's make sure the numbers flow was the collection 1.6 billion [1:00:07] my understanding is and the auditor can correct if this is not the understanding is 1.6 billion was [1:00:16] the claims made by the facilities auditor please clarify that because you have said collected and [1:00:25] collected means money in the account maybe chair just to clarify this is that the facilities collected 1.6 [1:00:31] billion but out of this but out of this they transfer 915 to just leave it there so you confirm as [1:00:37] the auditor that the facilities collected yeah 1.6 billion yes okay so was to collect [1:00:45] collected you don't have to 1.6 of 24 facilities so what was supposed to even with this uh uh problematic [1:00:53] law what should have gone back to facilities should have been 80 percent of 1.6 billion which is 915. [1:01:01] which is 915 but the governor's response indicates that it was 915 collected there's a there's a mismatch [1:01:11] there you know if if your math is uh if your math is right that 915 is 80 percent of 1.6 then they [1:01:21] actually collected 1.6 yeah but then the gap between 1.6 and then 687 that's over 700 million shillings [1:01:34] that can be 80 percent there's a mix there's the numbers are not adding up so let's agree on the [1:01:40] numbers maybe she just i can clarify yes when we audit these facilities of course i said 24 facilities [1:01:47] collected 1.6 out of this 1.6 because of the timing difference they transferred 915 to the special [1:01:53] purpose account so ideally the entity need to transfer 900 again from the special account to the entities [1:01:59] but they retain the 20 percent of and above so you realize what has been transferred 687 from the [1:02:06] special purpose account instead of 915. so the difference is 228 they could have ought to retain 183 [1:02:14] million if they use that apply that law so the difference between 183 and 228 is 45 million which [1:02:21] audit query again but that 45 million again was transferred later on and there was an evidence for [1:02:27] that support so there is the total amount that the entity has collected the facilities auditor general [1:02:35] what is what is 1.616 billion what is that is that cash collected from the facilities yes so governor [1:02:47] you collected 1.6 billion from hospitals that's a fact you know from the entities themselves which we [1:02:53] audit you know we also edit this facility yes if you do the cumulative that's how they collected [1:02:58] but but you have a schedule auditor yes yes there is a schedule when we do the audit yes so the governor [1:03:04] is the collector and the receiver did you receive 1.6 billion from the facilities i think what the [1:03:11] auditor is clarifying is what he found at the facilities was that they had collected 1.6 billion what we are [1:03:20] handling from the purposes of fif is what facilities then transferred to the special purpose account [1:03:30] uh which is 900 and 15 so from that the auditor indicated that he needed us to transfer back the [1:03:40] entire 9 15 but we retained the 20 percent as per the low for us to understand what what happens to the [1:03:48] 700 million between the 1.6 and 9 15 million now chairman when we look now at the audit of the entities [1:03:56] when we go to the pc then we now compare with the facilities what did you receive and what didn't you [1:04:06] send to the spa account because from what the auditor general is uh has raised there might be some money [1:04:16] that facilities have received but because of time or whatever difference they have not transferred it to [1:04:22] the spa account so we from this angle of fif have no visibility of it no no the percentage is so huge [1:04:32] it's material if it was a few millions then you could talk of timing differences but it's a gap of 700 [1:04:39] so is it uh indicative of uh deduction at source expenditure at source without first remitting the [1:04:47] money to the relevant funds that 700 million one could be but what the auditor has said that the [1:04:55] facilities had received from his point the money because i would have imagined that these would be [1:05:01] claims they have made and they are yet to receive but from what he said it's money they had received [1:05:07] which is it means that it is money that the facilities themselves had not sent to the special purpose [1:05:15] account uh no i'm asking this question just to understand that process because i would expect that if [1:05:21] if it was 1.6 collected and you have audited the uh financial statements for the facilities then [1:05:30] what would be transferred to the special purpose account cumulatively should be close to the 1.6 it [1:05:40] which is 80 percent which is 80 percent i'm struggling to understand why there's that [1:05:50] where there's that gap i thought it should be the entire 1.6 yeah then it is transferred then it is sent back [1:05:56] so that's that's where that's what you should tell us because a simple understanding means 1.6 should [1:06:05] hit the county account yes yeah yeah then they return 80 percent 80 percent back to the facilities yes [1:06:14] so we have not had i have not i have not received that explanation proper from god [1:06:22] it's the entities it's the entity it's an entity's explanation because they should agree with the entity [1:06:27] that it's 1.6 when we do the maths now so does it mean 700 million was spent at source if the [1:06:37] governor can clarify that does it mean 700 million were spent at source because you have the uh you [1:06:44] have chief officer in charge of healthy services they should be they are the accounting officers and [1:06:49] departmental head so out of this 1.6 and i don't think oag will go and come up with 1.6 billion without [1:06:56] going through the schedule of collections within those 24 facilities but so between 1.6 billion [1:07:03] and 9 15 million the difference of 700 million was it spent it knows chair okay so the same auditor [1:07:12] who audits those hospitals you should be able to tell us was the 700 million spent at source that [1:07:18] difference that's why i believe the the initial explanation should actually come from the oag on the [1:07:27] visibility of the 1.6 billion kenya shillings okay let's allow the oag to advise us yeah thank you [1:07:35] share uh when the facilities collect usually say maybe the share has been paid for specific facilities [1:07:43] and uh based on the arrangement between the special purpose account and the facilities they are [1:07:47] supposed to fund these transfers so for us we normally have the cut of debt which is 38 june so at the [1:07:54] cut of debt of that june you may see the facility has collected but probably they will have uh the [1:08:00] fifth day of the month for them to transfer the funds you know they sort of call the timing difference [1:08:06] so at that point of the cut of debt we realize the facility has collected 1.6 from their site but [1:08:12] what they have transferred as a cut of that debt of that is june is 915 941 to the special purpose [1:08:18] account because they have to transfer funds with the special purpose account their letter uh the [1:08:23] account to retain 20 20 percent and retain so there is timing difference because if probably we look [1:08:29] in the month of july the fund maybe has even been moved to special purpose account but the timing [1:08:34] difference be to the tune of 43 percent because that variance is 43 percent of the total but timing [1:08:44] difference could be a month or a quarter uh governor i think uh i may see where the auditor is coming from [1:08:53] because the facilities they report on accrual they report on what they have claimed from sha that's [1:09:02] what they report as their as their revenue not necessarily what sha has already reimbursed to them [1:09:12] at any particular time so they might be reporting in their books those amounts but on the basis of [1:09:20] the claims they have because every treatment you make you you file the you file the claim but the [1:09:26] money does not necessarily come back to you uh in good time so sometimes we even report you know you [1:09:34] report revenues on the basis of those claims in the hope that you will receive back the money perhaps [1:09:41] that is what the report is because we have tightened we have tightened a lot the issue of expenditure [1:09:48] at source the facilities bring money to the spa but again the entities we [1:10:00] detailed reporting from the from the entities uh themselves that can be so today we were responding [1:10:07] to the issue of what came to the fif thank you yeah that's why i was asking the auditor if the 1.6 billion [1:10:16] actually hit the accounts of the hospitals and you did the total and if you did so and 800 950 was [1:10:28] transferred to spa then you must be knowing what happened to the other man and how it was expended [1:10:34] auditor oh yeah because you see the auditors use the language the facility is collected and english on its [1:10:42] face a collection is money that has been received by the facility so i don't know what else we want [1:10:49] the auditor to you know whereas whereas what uh the governor says uh makes a lot of sense are we okay [1:10:58] yeah so whereas it makes a lot of sense you know chair you have asked the auditor more than three times [1:11:05] whether whether that money 1.6 billion was realized by the facilities and the three times [1:11:13] in your fund that the money was realized so i don't know whether now you want to change that position [1:11:20] or what's going to happen auditor you remember you're not the one on the spot it's a county to [1:11:26] explain so i will be quite hesitant to put you on the spot for too long but just clarify because [1:11:33] even though the english here does not need clarification for anyone who went to school auditor do you [1:11:41] stand with your collected or it's something that you want to vary here we stand with the amount [1:11:49] that has been collected 1.6 because we also ordered these 24 health facilities and based on [1:11:54] their collection you can able to confirm that this is the amount as adapted but in terms of [1:11:59] how the funds are moving from the facility itself to the special purpose account there's always [1:12:03] timing difference but here the main concern of the audit query is 915 that requires to be fully [1:12:09] funded back with the facility yeah 915 but we have also raised concern about the 700 in between [1:12:15] because even if it was a timing difference it cannot be 40 44 percent because the amounts that [1:12:22] have been transferred are just 50 53 point something percent of what you report as having been collected [1:12:29] so i think this is a matter that perhaps needs to be looked into further because we focused more on the [1:12:37] on on on the law but not on the numbers these numbers must be looked at now governor what is the [1:12:45] is there a disbursement schedule for the facilities so that facilities know that on a monthly basis they're [1:12:53] going to get their money back because i think coming from homer bay there could be one or two facilities [1:12:59] that i've heard have not gotten their disbursements since perhaps late last year is there a disbursement [1:13:08] schedule or the disbursements are done as as monies are received from sha thank you chairman in the [1:13:17] earlier times of the process there were delays here and there but that was tightened so if you send your [1:13:24] mind if you send your money to the spa it should not be more than four days before you receive it back to [1:13:30] the facility and i want uh the finance chief officer who does that to just confirm whether there could [1:13:38] be monies that can take more than a week in in the in the spa yeah and you might also want to confirm [1:13:49] whether ndiwa ndiru magunga rachwonyo east and suba sub county i've got some outstanding disbursements [1:13:59] as you explain that thank you chair the refunds to facilities uh we do them as fast as within the day [1:14:13] but not longer than within the week and that is how the spa that is locally operated has really been [1:14:18] useful for us to ensure that that is done unless a facility has not uh met any condition required for [1:14:26] example uh bringing a certified statement showing what they received which also rarely happens so i [1:14:33] can confirm that it doesn't go beyond a week but it goes as fast as within a day we send back to the [1:14:39] money back to the facility is there any reported challenge in some of those facilities that i mentioned [1:14:47] in terms of delays in reimbursement ndiwa ndiru magunga rachwonyo east suba sub county hospital [1:14:58] a chair that is reimbursement from sha not from the spa at the county there were some clarifications [1:15:06] which were being required by the sha national office and therefore their reimbursement from the [1:15:11] national sha office is what is uh has a challenge not from the local uh uh operations okay so on that [1:15:19] because when we went to busier i think we went to the general hospital and the doctors there gave us [1:15:27] certain challenges that they're facing with sha what would be the challenge in in homer bay so that [1:15:33] even when you're engaging with the cs for health it is something we can bring up that homer bay was before [1:15:39] us and several facilities have not been reimbursed for many months because every time when he comes [1:15:45] he says everything is working well there's no problem with sha chairman i can say overly [1:15:54] sha has been reimbursing the facilities but there are specific facilities in homer bay public facilities [1:16:01] that had challenges with sha itself um and when the ai system that sha has picks any uh anomaly with [1:16:13] the facility they stop and then you clarify and then they reopen so this is uh what happened to [1:16:21] some of the facilities that you've mentioned was magunga one of yeah and and magunga but a number of [1:16:29] them i want to ask you grace uh the cc health to just confirm which of these facilities have been uh [1:16:36] cleared by sha and which one is still left that we're still pursuing thank you honorable chair and members [1:16:52] the facilities that have since been cleared are ratonio south and ratonio east we still have a [1:16:59] problem with newa with maridi with the suba some county magunga is one of them and diru and yalgosi [1:17:08] thank you and there is it a workflow problem or there's a more fundamental problem i remember when the [1:17:16] president was in homer bay there are comments that were made which left us with egg on our face i think with [1:17:22] regards to must have been one of those hospitals where it was said that we are cooking up claims [1:17:29] which i don't think is the nature of our people so are the challenges um just workflow issues or there [1:17:38] material things that this senate can take up with the cs in charge of health thank you honorable chair [1:17:54] members a good number of the challenges relate to contractual provisions and i think our team is [1:18:02] doing a very good job of providing information that is needed as required some of it is just [1:18:09] that sha has been overwhelmed by requests and things that they have to look at at the different [1:18:16] facilities so some of it relates to speed on the sha side some of it relates to contractual issues and some [1:18:24] of it also just changing policies uh has been changing policies very very frequently and it has [1:18:31] taken our team some time to um master that okay honorable members uh i know we have gotten now into [1:18:40] broader policy conversations uh we'll need to come back to the numbers senator marumi specifically chair for [1:18:46] this query the action taken by the management is that um the management dispersed the funds to the [1:18:57] respective level four and level five hospitals i'm imagining it is the 183 million that was retained and [1:19:04] then you have the process of harmonizing the two laws has started that is the amending the law i don't [1:19:11] know if that is adequate to mitigate on the query but also we need to know what is happening now are you [1:19:17] still retaining the funds or now what is happening i think on the first part of the question if you cannot [1:19:24] agree on the 1.6 billion then we cannot have a resolution so we need the auditor will have to assure [1:19:30] us whether that 1.6 billion is collected or accrued i think that's a starting point because if the 1.6 [1:19:37] billion is collected then we have a much bigger problem of retention or drawing on funds at source [1:19:44] so there's no way we can solve this matter until we establish uh the basis um governor chairman i wanted [1:19:55] to agree with you that uh because our responses focused on the money that came to the spa if we [1:20:04] could uh have an opportunity to look at the schedule from the auditor on the 1.6 so that we know exactly [1:20:13] what animal we are we are handling so chairman i wanted to agree with you that uh we will retreat and [1:20:21] get the 1.6 whether it's accrued or whether it is actual then we we handle it from there and we will [1:20:29] also be appearing before the pic on the same with the with the entities yeah so since this is in the [1:20:38] report that is before us we cannot toss it to another committee auditor general as we do our report you [1:20:44] will provide us with a schedule that provides evidence of the collections and if there's that gap of [1:20:49] 700 million will put the governor to task on it we could proceed to long outstanding trade and other [1:20:57] payables uh even though um maybe for the benefit of um everyone in the committee so for like for [1:21:08] these facilities where they've been those technical challenges with sha when a citizen comes to the [1:21:14] hospital and there's no medication how do you deal with that or is there a stopgap funding measure [1:21:24] because if sha fails then it is a county government that has failed you know you are the face you are [1:21:31] the face of service delivery uh chairman it's a discussion we have had with uh with sha including [1:21:38] with the minister that for public facilities if there is a challenge should the sha be stopped or should [1:21:48] sha continue to serve the public as we'd handle any any issues on the on the background and the idea [1:21:56] should be that sha should continue as you handle the issues on the background uh but uh right now [1:22:03] we have had to support those facilities from the from our exchequer side um to be able to to handle and [1:22:12] the public is not able to access sha but we are working around the clock to ensure that sha is restored [1:22:18] and i'm happy that some of the facilities that were off like rachuanyo south rachuanyo east they are now [1:22:25] restored and we are sure that within the month or so we should be able to restore uh the other [1:22:30] facilities okay um senator sifuna yeah you have to move to the trade debtors uh my hearing the county [1:22:39] governor to be saying the that the people of omar bay have been going to this uh hospital facilities [1:22:44] have not been charged money that she has paid to the county government has paid for that because i [1:22:49] remember recently we we were told that there was an outage in that share system and at least in [1:22:55] nairobi our experience was totally different people were being turned away from facilities [1:23:00] governor are you saying you are the ones who have been paying for those people in those hospitals where [1:23:04] the shares had issues i know i think senator my my point was because the facilities especially at level [1:23:14] four rely a lot on the faf without an active share program they need to pay certain basic issues [1:23:24] including commodities and so on which we have supported them to support electricity and the [1:23:31] other utilities they're still out of pocket payments at your facilities because of this problem [1:23:36] yes for because of this problem there is still out of pocket uh payment particularly in the facilities [1:23:43] that are facing this particular problem the fall out of the 234 facilities i think we have four of them [1:23:50] now facing this sharp problem i think chair if i go directly what you're raising is uh if a facility [1:23:59] has been blocked by sha i'm a citizen of omar bay i have the sha card i will not get uh medical attention [1:24:12] in that facility that's i think that's the question uh chairs asking then what happens to those innocent [1:24:19] citizens of omar bay they have sha the facility that is run by the county has been blocked from sha [1:24:27] so how do they access health services if that is the situation maybe in addition okay it says [1:24:38] services they have to pay out of pocket or because the challenge is facing those are these the same [1:24:45] facilities that they see us told us they were facing issues of fraud and then number two do you as a [1:24:52] county have indigenous uh support to citizens who don't have the ability to pay for the for the [1:24:59] medical services thank you and for the record senator is the biggest defender of sha in this committee [1:25:04] so we'll uh chair i'm the biggest defender of government i'm the biggest defender of broad-based [1:25:11] and i'm defect the biggest defender of anything that government for the better okay that's that's [1:25:16] extraneous also is the biggest defender of broad-based so let's come back let's let's go back to the audit [1:25:24] she did follow that you should be the biggest defender of mine [1:25:27] oh no that's um i think on the on the i think on the issue of of these specific facilities [1:25:36] the discussion we have had you can find that a facility has a case that can be said to be fraud [1:25:44] for example maybe it is a a case of not adjusting quick enough to the policies maybe it is a question [1:25:53] of people shared beds so you claimed for 30 instead of 20 beds which you're registered to have so those [1:26:03] kinds of issues are the ones that are resulting in the blocking of facilities um share generally if i [1:26:11] would say chair reimburses facilities and is a big improvement from the previous system that we had [1:26:19] that i can see me but the concern is this innocent this innocent kenyan who has shared and that comes [1:26:25] to a public health facility but because of the mistake of that health facility he or she is not able to [1:26:31] access service using the share card what do we do i'm in total agreement with you senator okong because [1:26:40] and this is the discussion we have had with the with the sha and with the policy level that if a facility [1:26:48] has an issue the issue should be dealt with while the public continues to access services this this is [1:26:59] what we have we have raised so that the punishment when you block a facility the punishment is not on [1:27:06] the administrator it is on the the patient so we we have asked that the policy be changed so that if [1:27:16] there is an issue with the facility let the administrator administration of the facility [1:27:22] who is the contract holder because you know facilities sign direct contracts with sha to let them deal with [1:27:30] that as the facility continues to offer services to the public which is not the case at the moment [1:27:36] okay senator sifuna final just a clarification governor uh you know we in the senate and you [1:27:44] in the council of governors actually on the same side i actually view these conversations here as you [1:27:52] appearing at one of those facilities you're talking to because we're supposed to fight these causes [1:27:57] together what we say out there whether you are the biggest supporter of whatever is something else but [1:28:03] we shouldn't be hearing any complaints when it comes to service delivery in hospitals if sha is working [1:28:10] how much money does sha or homer bay county or 24 facilities in reimbursements i want to ask my health [1:28:18] team to just work that out and and share and also just confirm to us what is uh my chair calls it an [1:28:26] aging analysis because when people go around saying this thing is working and yet maybe homer bay is [1:28:32] prioritized in terms of payments but in nairobi sha owes our hospitals a lot of money and they are [1:28:38] suffering those uh you know maybe we should start being like charlie and then our hospitals will be [1:28:44] given money but we want to confirm that chair is the biggest defender of something of course yes yes so [1:28:53] the cc there should just confirm to me if because homer bay is one of those counties [1:28:59] that that cannot be algorithms that's what i want to know i want to know that's a political question [1:29:10] you can ignore no no no no no no hundred no no in the same order senator we still have Meine him [1:29:15] know that she vouna three with the Indian alten reactive해� Japan gives us a system that works one [1:29:21] 100 percent anywhere in the world yeah so every every system of honorable senators we are the ones who wrote [1:29:28] the four laws when we're in turkana so if it is not working well you can't you can't you can't [1:29:34] it is our responsibility to revisit them the argument is if an entity has been blocked because [1:29:40] of fraud you know if it is blocked i agree with the argument that the innocent kenyans must serve [1:29:46] but you also protect the resources that belongs to the people no that's okay let's let's allow [1:29:50] senator to finish i don't think when we write laws we we take on the responsibility of uh [1:29:54] implementation because what we were promised by the current administration is universal free [1:30:00] health care so even one person going to a facility and not being able to receive uh medication is a [1:30:07] matter of concern for us as a leadership uh chair the the question of fraud is just one but for [1:30:13] instance uh chair if you take into account the the recent collapse of that system offshore that is [1:30:19] not a question of fraud and bearing in mind senator how much money the kenyan taxpayer paid for that [1:30:26] system i am not saying uh chair that we expect uh a hundred percent but we are saying a system that [1:30:33] expensive cannot be out of service for four days there's loss of lives in the country when things [1:30:39] like those happen that is nothing to do with fraud so we are within our rights we are within our rights [1:30:45] to insist that because of the amount of money that we paid for that system my my my healthcare [1:30:50] contributions share when i was elected here i think they went down they went up almost 30 times i pay [1:30:57] over 30 000 these days and we used to pay nhif a fraction of that and the the way that program was [1:31:03] sold to us is because if una you are well to do you are earning a million shillings a month let's [1:31:08] contribute so that the other people who are unable to or don't have an income the people in the villages in [1:31:14] karachiwonyo can be able to do what access healthcare that is the reason why we supported [1:31:19] the system now if it doesn't work if there is even just one person in karachiwonyo who is not [1:31:25] receiving healthcare because the system is down a hundred and something billion kenyan shilling system [1:31:31] so it's not to say that these questions are political but healthcare is political no i think the [1:31:37] questions are proper we are asked about the size of the debt you have the figures maybe you could share [1:31:48] chairman um share owes us approximately 350 million to the facilities in uh in homerby um chairman on [1:32:01] the other and the how old how old is that date is it a month two months a year um they're just working [1:32:08] on the aging i just wanted to bring the the amount chairman uh but but even before you go there chair [1:32:16] if the auditor general or the the county entity itself is saying that in the entire financial [1:32:20] year that is under review they they themselves told us 900 and and something was collected in all [1:32:26] the facilities right if she alone has 350 in debt to the hospitals in homerby that's almost a third of the [1:32:33] collections for the for the facilities you know so when when we bring out these things don't don't [1:32:39] make it look like it is uh political but if you have come to the doctor and you give me the wrong [1:32:45] what is it called not no there's the wrong symptoms a governor if you give me the wrong symptoms i will [1:32:52] not apply the right injection and you know how we do it we want you to be paid 350 million i think uh [1:32:58] you are starting your your preamble is what should uh carry the rest of the conversation that we are on the [1:33:05] same side when we ask these questions it's to get a solution and when we find that 300 million is owed [1:33:12] to homer bay out of a potential collection of 1.6 billion or 900 million it is significant and it is in [1:33:20] these sessions that we find legislative interventions or just interventions we can call the cs uh for health [1:33:28] but it it is it shows that there's a problem if you don't have 300 million reimbursed on time [1:33:34] chairman maybe i can just uh say say this also because uh in our language something is said that [1:33:43] the tail of a ship is compared with the other if we compare the level of reimbursements the the amount [1:33:55] in terms of reimbursements that shy is giving to facilities in comparison to what nhif was giving [1:34:01] share is much more enhanced if we compare the timeliness in payment share is prompter than what [1:34:13] nhif was i'm just noting that uh in comparison of course every there's no perfect the promptness will [1:34:23] will determine once we get the aging analysis of the debt yes chair chair chair let me let me just make a [1:34:30] point a simple but important point you know governor you and i and every kenyan worker is not in arrears [1:34:44] in their contributions to sha none of us is in areas there can never be an explanation why sha really [1:34:54] should hold that's just one county 350 million kenya shillings and and you know what uh uh chairman and [1:35:06] governor and all of us you know we we can choose compare nhif and sha or whatever it is that we want [1:35:12] to do but you see governor if if sha was working in omar bay or in kitui the first person that would [1:35:24] know that sha is working is a patient visiting a facility we don't need to tell them that it's working [1:35:33] i mean if it's working it's working if it's not working it's not working and we are talking about a [1:35:37] situation and i don't want those comparisons where the kenyan taxpayer has paid in excess of 100 [1:35:49] billion kenya shillings for technology that is supposed to support sha a system that has been down [1:35:59] for now almost a week or or more so let's not even go there but but but if it's working then kenyan [1:36:08] people will know it's working we we don't need to tell them that it's working and for the amount of [1:36:16] money that here we have spent for that system honestly the uptime should be more than 97 percent [1:36:24] you ask me now the cost i i know this is uh these members here are seized of this matter on the floor [1:36:31] cs12 comes regularly what we must demand of governor wanga is to account for the 1.6 billion [1:36:39] reported as collected that's what we must demand from governor wanga that that money must go back [1:36:44] to facilities what we must demand from cs2 is why 350 million remains undiscussed to the facilities [1:36:52] so i think let's let's separate it let's not uh attempt to explain over explain the national [1:36:57] government's role um because this is a county government that is distinct i think that's where [1:37:03] we are falling into a trap governor you got the aging or you it's something that can be provided [1:37:10] later i think they're working on it uh and they will we will be able to present it so we are clear on [1:37:16] this particular matter that we must the first thing we must confirm is 1.6 and in terms of amendment of [1:37:23] the laws county laws i think it would best serve governors to perhaps caucus and have one standard [1:37:31] amendment for the county laws or the national legislation in fact amending one law is faster [1:37:38] than amending 47 sets of laws but we shall leave that to you let's move to trade payables long [1:37:46] outstanding trade and other payables auditor general yeah thank you share a long outstanding [1:37:53] trade and other payables the statement of the financial position and as disclosed in not 20 to [1:37:58] the financial statement reflect a threat and other payables balance of kenya shipping one billion [1:38:04] five hundred and four million five hundred and fifteen thousand three hundred and eighty which [1:38:09] includes a payable totaling to kenya shipping one billion ninety one million nine hundred five [1:38:15] thousand and fifty nine that has been outstanding for for one year contrary to section 14-2 of the [1:38:21] public finance management county government regulation 2015 which said that the debt service payment [1:38:27] shall be the first touch in the county revenue fund and the accounting officer shall ensure that this [1:38:32] is done to the extent possible that the county government does not default [1:38:37] on the debt obligations in addition although the management has provided payment plan showing [1:38:42] the order of the priority they intend to use to clear the debts the plan does not indicate when [1:38:48] the payables will be settled in the circumstances management was in breach of the law thank you [1:38:54] governor your response thank you chair management has noted the auditor's observation and wishes to [1:39:06] clarify that it is committed to settling pending bills in accordance with the pending bills action plan for [1:39:13] financial year 25 26. out of the 1.5 1 1 billion 524 million 513 380 outstanding bills as the 30th june [1:39:27] 20 25 kenya shilling 713 million 199 834 has so far been settled leaving a balance of kenya shillings 811 313 [1:39:39] 545 management is implementing the approved payment plan and has prioritized the settlement of eligible and [1:39:46] and verified pending bills subject to availability of funds in line with the pfm county government's [1:39:52] regulations 2015. the payment plan outlines the order of priority and timelines for settlement and the [1:39:59] management intends to settle the pending bills by the end of financial year 2026 2027. appendix 8a [1:40:09] pending bills progression summary 8b pending bills action plan for 2025 2026 8b another one current status [1:40:20] for pending bills governor with the the progress that you have presented there how does that change [1:40:29] for example if you look at your note 20 that you had 148 million outstanding over three years when you look at [1:40:40] pending bills pending bills as a first charge with your payment plan to what extent have those figures [1:40:47] changed because i mean you would have pending bills under one year as you wait for your disbursements [1:40:55] maybe one to two years as you wait for projects to complete but over three years is indicative of [1:41:02] a problem you reported 148 million as bills exceeding three years is there a specific plan to deal with [1:41:14] um debt over three years let's allow senator charadke also to have a question i have seen your response [1:41:26] on this matter of pending bill and i have noticed over 92 percent of the pending bill of 1.5 billion was [1:41:35] accrued by your administration or 92 percent the eight percent is historical question one can you segregate [1:41:45] and give us the reason in details that is question one after what the chair has asked number three [1:41:54] in this 92 percent of pending bill are there pending bills that are tied to multi-year projects that the [1:42:03] county is undertaking and how much are we looking at and finally chair since i know we don't want to [1:42:11] to interrogate the chair of county public accounts of uh of homer bay in the budget allocation how much [1:42:21] has it been in this financial year and the ccm bureau is here has been allocated to offset the pending bill [1:42:29] because looking at the aging analysis uh it it doesn't add up considering the budget and finally chair [1:42:36] just finally sorry for taking long governor governor you have indicated that there were eligible pending [1:42:46] bills in your answer because i'm just reading your answer chair you if you have noticed the the governor [1:42:54] is talking uh as settling pending bills action and also on and as prioritized the settlement of eligible [1:43:05] and verified pending bills so what is the basis of this is it the the controller budget that did [1:43:13] verification or yourself and is there a report when you say eligible and verifiable how much are you [1:43:21] talking about and ineligible could it be connected to a historical uh pending bill which you have uh which [1:43:29] is which is uh related to 811 billion so because it says eligibility and verifiable so what does which [1:43:38] ones are eligible so that maybe he has lumped up everything okay i yield back fine um maybe governor [1:43:45] just take note so that we take all the questions we'll be able to move first senator sifuna uh chair and [1:43:52] governor i'm looking at uh the development expenditure pending bills as at 31st may 2026 which i think is your [1:44:00] uh next uh 8 8 8c are we together there is a document called homer bay county development [1:44:14] expenditure pending bills as at 31st may 2026 which would indicate that it is a current status uh [1:44:21] honorable chair is that hc or eight i think it's it's i found it at hc hc yes so there will just be [1:44:30] like three items that maybe you can address as one i was speaking at i was picking out the high [1:44:36] high ticket issues uh there is a pending bill of 24 million for construction of homer bay county [1:44:43] stadium is this the one that was uh renamed rilodinga stadium yeah so i thought that uh national [1:44:51] government had told us that once the intervention was there this it's number four on that list so just [1:44:58] address us why there is still a pending bill of 24 million shillings for the stadium uh secondly on [1:45:04] robo chair at number nine there there is an amount of 348 954 thousand that is a pending bill for [1:45:13] construction of two door pit latrine at ngeri beach in kaksingri west ward at number nine uh chair if the [1:45:21] pending bill is 348 954 on a construction of a two-pit two-door pit latrine what was the cost of this [1:45:29] project uh honorable chair and does it make sense that the trains are that expensive to build in uh [1:45:35] homerby that is item number nine on that list number nine are we there and finally chair oh yeah [1:45:52] there seems to be i was struggling to follow but i've seen it now because that's the number nine on the [1:45:59] second document yes chair because there are two documents okay i'm with you now yes there's the one [1:46:07] that is titled development expenditure pending business at the first march may 2020 it comes [1:46:12] after the summary of pending bills yes okay so the number nine one governor you'll explain to us why [1:46:19] it's so expensive building toilets there and then uh finally there is the 3.588 million at number 19. [1:46:30] this is a construction of main block at gingo health center in super south kaksingri west wall just [1:46:37] tell us the status of that project whether the uh it was complete or whether it is not that's all [1:46:44] chair yeah can i add on senator sifuna on number 28 and 29 this one proposed completion of governor's [1:46:51] new office block of 7.9 million i thought the office block was completed and finally number 29 governor [1:47:00] you are proposing as construction of a gazebo at the new governor's office of 2.8 and we know what [1:47:08] gazebo is is it too cold in naoma bay you needed somewhere to light fire which was there okay so [1:47:18] yeah since you are having the second bite make it brief that's it uh governor thank you thank you [1:47:28] uh chairman i will pick some and i will also ask the cc finance um to answer others so starting with the [1:47:41] question asked by senator gerard gay on the the office block i think uh it's the the titling this was the [1:47:54] governor's office block which we moved to which was the health building so we completed it [1:48:00] uh stayed there as they were building the county headquarters and uh it was taken over by the [1:48:09] health uh department because it was always the health meant to be the health building the gazebo is [1:48:17] a is a structure outside where you can meet with your workers the healthcare workers and and the others [1:48:25] instead of instead of instead of having tents it's a capacity of about 300 people i think senator you [1:48:31] may have seen it um i haven't seen it i've never been to homerby no i'm oh the area senator you should be [1:48:40] specific yeah yeah yeah and senator homerby may have seen it so yeah because there are many senators here [1:48:47] so and then coming to the question of uh coming to the question of senator sipuna on the two-door [1:48:54] pit latrine the standard amount for the two-door pit latrines is about half a million shillings that's [1:49:02] uh the cost of uh pitting it and and building it it's usually about half a million shillings uh the [1:49:11] cost is up is there about um and so uh so governor for instance if there's a pending bill of 486 359 like [1:49:22] at number 65 there yeah it means you you paid the contractor an initial amount of 20k maybe we [1:49:29] haven't paid them it's an average cost of 500 but when you're contracting you could contract at 4.8 [1:49:35] i mean 480 460 depending on uh where where you're building it the soil structure there and so on [1:49:45] somebody could quote slightly less so maybe that person has not been paid at all uh coming to the [1:49:53] rai laudinga stadium in homer bay um the face one of this stadium was completed by the county [1:50:01] government of homer bay and opened in july of 2023 uh any obligations under that face one are under the [1:50:15] county government of the county government the national government then came in to do the terraces [1:50:22] around the the stadium because the first phase only had the main pavilion but did not have the [1:50:28] terraces around the stadium so the national government uh picked up the terracing and that [1:50:33] could be the confusion but what we owe the county government owes to the contractors who did the first [1:50:39] phase of the of the stadium now if you look at the study just one sorry all the members um is it on the [1:50:49] same same point on the same one chair my concern is that the invoice date if you look at the column [1:50:56] on supplier or contractor invoice date is indicated as 2019 governor we are in 2026 yeah that is uh over [1:51:05] seven years later is this amount payable is one of those that you've decided you're not going to pay [1:51:12] uh no the the construction of the stadium took a bit of uh took a bit of time and we found when [1:51:18] it had progressed and then we picked it from there we have made quite a bit of payments to the [1:51:26] contractor and we are at the very tail end of of finalizing any pending bills around that stadium [1:51:33] i think you'll need to tie it with the earlier question on how you are treating the debt over three [1:51:38] years correct because your records indicate 148 million was three years older okay yeah and i hope [1:51:47] that you're going to give us that analysis or your officers are going to give us that analysis yes [1:51:51] i'm going to hand that question over to them but before i hand it over i'll go to the question that uh [1:51:58] senator chiraghi asked around uh the eligibility of the pending bills i think uh chairman when we last [1:52:05] appeared we had indicated that we had formed a pending bills uh verification committee and uh it [1:52:12] finalized its work and uh presented a report thank you so so it means that the numbers that you reported [1:52:19] of 1.52 those are um legible legible and those ones are uh you have made a commitment to pay them [1:52:27] yes okay how much was ineligible and are there any challenges to that declaration because somebody [1:52:35] cannot raise a pending bill so out of this 1.5 that is legible it would be better for for people [1:52:42] of homer bay to know that how much are ineligible okay what is the outcome of such process so that chair [1:52:49] the county does not serve legal suits or being taken to court yeah i i think chairman i will ask for the [1:52:56] exact trigger to be presented but we had a very open process and when when we finished the process we [1:53:04] called the contractors who had put in the bills we gave them the report we opened for appeal [1:53:13] you know the team went round so it was a very open process and we we took a very very uh competent [1:53:20] set of teams and when we came here you also told us to take it again to the internal auditor [1:53:25] because of the case in kakamega the internal auditor to again verify which the internal audit team [1:53:32] did so we had a very elaborate process around the question is the payment of the bills more than [1:53:38] actually the eligibility of it i think there's general satisfaction around eligibility uh even [1:53:45] from the contractors the bigger question is can you pay us uh quicker and that is the question the [1:53:51] chair was asking around the bills that are more than three years old so i want to ask uh the cc finance [1:53:59] okay cc take up thank you in the current budget the total value uh for pending bills is at 480 million [1:54:12] uh senator sought that uh in trying to clear that's a budget yeah that's a budget provision yeah that's [1:54:19] the budgetary provision that we have now chai if we go to appendix 8a it gives us now historically where [1:54:28] we are coming from and also uh the financial years that are affected for both recurrent and development [1:54:40] when uh we got into office in 2022 a chair uh both historical pending bills and current then stood at [1:54:52] 1.9 billion of which uh during the assumption of office what was handed over was about 740 million but [1:54:59] the bulk of it then came through the pending bills verification task force uh which was way over 2 billion [1:55:08] around 2.21 but what was then uh considered eligible as total to 1.9 chair in the financial year then [1:55:16] 2023-2024 that figure was reduced substantially to 1.192 billion then now in the year 2024-2025 [1:55:27] uh there are those that were verified by the pending bill's task force but they said due to time [1:55:33] constraints uh we had to use our internal audit department to further confirm and liars with [1:55:41] uh the office of the auditor general to confirm that those are also because they didn't visit the actual [1:55:48] sites of where these works were done so that figure then made a jump when we went to the financial year [1:55:55] 2024-2025 that took us to the 1.5 billion that is in question today however chair as at uh 31st of may [1:56:05] 2026 the county government has made substantial progress on our pending bills and has reduced it [1:56:11] to the current figure of 811 313 which we are further making attempt to reduce uh by allocating uh 480 [1:56:23] million so in that 700 million reduction because you have reduced it by 700 million from from 1.5 to [1:56:32] 8 11. yes how much of that debt is still older than three years the reason i keep asking this is [1:56:41] you see three four years ago there was a different government and you don't want to create an impression [1:56:47] that bills from the old government are not being paid because as you have explained whatever you have [1:56:53] here is verified and as we also said when you're here that the senate has got no power to tell you [1:56:59] pay this bill and not that other one it's your internal processes so out of this 148 million that [1:57:05] you had reported as older than three years you have paid 700 million since the last audit how much has [1:57:12] that figure moved over three years yeah we we gave priority to historical pending bills and they are just [1:57:21] a few historical pending bills that are outstanding chair in my estimation but i will be able to provide [1:57:28] the data can you provide a ballpark figure just to get about about 55 million of the historical pending [1:57:37] bills could be outstanding now reason it's better to get the actual yeah okay chairman allow us to get the [1:57:43] actual the actual yeah and as you get that i wanted to find out how much of that relates to statutory [1:57:50] contributions gratuities staff payables do you have any such outstanding yeah chair we are we'll be able to provide [1:58:00] the data shortly as the meeting progresses senator sifuna no chair the amount of pride i have seen homo bay taking in this [1:58:09] stadium and the fact that it is named after my former boss i think it's very unfair to have a pending bill from 2019 which [1:58:18] which essentially governor would be attributable to face one of that stadium right so i'm hoping that in [1:58:25] the budget what you've set aside uh when next you appear here we will not have pending because i don't [1:58:32] want that contractor to be crying in raila's name it has it has not even have to be it has not even have [1:58:37] to be the next meeting because the officer said he's getting the exact details of the 55 million yes yeah so so [1:58:45] once he gets that we can be clear and give specific directions thank you yeah i'm hoping that it is [1:58:53] part of that 700 million maybe governor uh we were in that stadium during the evolution conference so you [1:59:01] say terraces was done as cannot be also being done for the entire stadium or only at the pavilion so sorry [1:59:10] so i take note of uh senator sifuna's point that nobody should be crying in uh baba's name so we have [1:59:20] made quite a bit of progress in paying uh the contractor in question so i think maybe that earlier invoice [1:59:27] should have been right i'm sure we've paid him a lot more even after the 2019 invoice but coming back [1:59:33] can you just maybe if you already have the data that you're saying you're analyzing no because you [1:59:39] are saying you have reduced it to 55 million no what we said so maybe you might find it has been [1:59:44] knocked off let us work out the actual figure uh and give it to you because you said how much of the [1:59:51] 701 has reduced the earlier three year old yeah and how much of it relates to staff um gratuity staff [2:00:00] payables and statutory deductions deductions exactly so i think that is what we we must provide uh which [2:00:08] is coming but i wanted to ask answer senator turnagay's question um the first phase was the main pavilion [2:00:18] the vip pavilion the second phase was the terraces and the canopies of the rest of the stadia it was [2:00:26] fast 2000 seater now it's 12 000 seater thank you chair so is it now fully done it's fully done complete [2:00:34] beautiful in railers name beautiful i wanted to get that i know it's been known for him to be normal [2:00:41] thank you senator senator maruma [2:00:45] sorry um just one small issue about the task force report did you have room for appeals have we dealt with [2:00:55] them because then if we are comfortable that we are moving well there could be others that are [2:01:12] coming so about approximately how much would we be expecting maybe to come back to these pending bills [2:01:19] or there was no room for appeal chairman as i said earlier when the committee presented its report [2:01:28] we subjected it to the associations and everybody contractors associations and everybody who had [2:01:37] sent in their documents and we asked them to appeal and they appealed and the appeal process was [2:01:44] finalized then we took again the report to the internal audit uh process because this was an external [2:01:52] task force and the court had ruled on on on that issue and the committee advised that the internal audit [2:02:00] suffices so we took it again to the internal audit so it has been a thorough process yeah just as a by the [2:02:07] way uh chair you you you know that uh uh almost always i spent the new year's festivities with my family in [2:02:15] homerby because it's one of the most beautiful places in kenya so last i was there was in december there was [2:02:21] there was there was an issue on the on the road just outside that stadium i thought i saw some blocks [2:02:26] of uh of what is it concrete the middle of the road what was the issue there governor has it been [2:02:33] cleared but the road outside is still under construction thank you senator for loving homerby [2:02:40] and for always coming there and we welcome you any any and every other time actually next time you'll be [2:02:47] going to sindo i think it will be tamak now i'm going to sindo now after after what i went through [2:02:55] last year my children waiting for hours on the road no i i got him a boat and he was too scared to [2:03:00] take the boat the split was crazy yeah so i'll go someplace else yeah but the road i think is a good [2:03:08] thing that's happening there which is the dueling of that main road of uh that passes through homerby [2:03:14] so the concrete was to make the middle of the the dual the median of the dual carriage so uh it is [2:03:22] very good progress for for homer i think in december it was work in progress um yeah it's it's still [2:03:30] moving um it's just that we won't find it in her books because it's uh it's uh it's been done by which [2:03:37] agency ken her chairman by by kenner so we'll find it in the the accounts of ken if you have the do you [2:03:45] have the breakdown for the three-year-old now i i must also put on record that as a senator from homer [2:03:51] bay i've received several petitions from service providers over delays in payment of pending bills [2:03:58] but i believe that we need to have a more substantive inquiry through a petition addressed to the finance [2:04:04] committee because it would be difficult to handle it through this accounting process the accounting [2:04:09] process we are limited to what the auditor general has raised so i will advise them to do so but as [2:04:16] we said last time there must be finality to the exercise you cannot verify forever and no one no [2:04:23] senator can help you verify your pending bills those are your liabilities it is upon you to identify the [2:04:29] ones that are payable the ones that are legible i and it's not even the auditor general who can tell you [2:04:37] it's your own mechanisms so that must be the position that once they are verified they need to [2:04:43] be paid and if they are found to be non-existent then as we have said the additional spice spicing [2:04:51] on it would have been to forward the files to essc or dci because that's a criminal offense now we can [2:04:58] proceed to another matter as we wait for those numbers the time will not allow us to deal with [2:05:05] everything that is in this report but as we were going through our briefs one of the other big [2:05:10] projects that homer bay county has done is an 800 million county headquarters i think auditor general [2:05:18] you can take us through the issues that were raised there yeah thank you share uh it's 8.4 delayed [2:05:32] completion of the home of a county government helicopter and auxiliary facilities the settlement of [2:05:37] financial position and as disclosing note 19 to the financial statement reflect the rights of the use of [2:05:42] assets of the current balance of commissioning seven hundred seven million two hundred thousand [2:05:47] which represent the cost of acquiring the county headquarters over four years period the county [2:05:52] government entered into tenant purchase agreement a finance release to own contract with the county [2:05:58] pension fund for the purpose of the build development of the home of a county county coming [2:06:02] headquarters and accelerated facilities on 6th may 2024 for a contract sum of creating 820 million [2:06:10] the money was to be paid over four years period the construction was to take six months and the [2:06:17] county government was to occupy the completed building by january 2025. the completion debt was [2:06:22] subsequently revised to second may 2025. a review of the records related to the project revealed that [2:06:29] the county executive paid currently 141 million 142 thousand 672 to the county pension fund in the year [2:06:38] and the review the total amount that had been paid was currently 181 million 142 thousand 676. although the [2:06:46] county executive obtained approval from the control of budget july 24 to open and operate a special [2:06:52] purpose account for the home of a county infrastructure financing fund at the central bank of kenya the [2:06:58] county government was yet to establish the fund and open the special purpose account in accordance with [2:07:03] the home of a county infrastructure financing fund act 2023 which were the requirement in the tenant purchase [2:07:09] agreement the tenant purchase agreement the finance lease to own contract include construction of the [2:07:15] main helicopter building and pitators and ushuru center in addition a physical verification in october 2025 [2:07:23] revealed that the project was not completed and was behind the schedule although the county government has [2:07:28] already occupied the main block of the development work on the pitators was still ongoing [2:07:34] landscaping was used to be completed and painting was being done in the section of the main block [2:07:40] in addition occupation safety and health certificates were not provided for audit in the second that the [2:07:46] value for the money has not been realized from the expenditure of cash in 181 million 142 thousand 76 [2:07:52] with the continued lapse in completion at that time thank you chair governor you may respond thank you chair [2:08:02] the management has taken note of the audit findings and wishes to state that the process [2:08:10] to open the homer bay county infrastructure financing fund sorry sorry governor secretary what's the [2:08:16] matter governor we might just read the page number page 20 20 okay proceed um the process [2:08:28] to open the homer bay county infrastructure financing fund has been initiated however the process [2:08:34] stall due to delayed approval by the principal secretary for national treasury as was directed by the central bank of [2:08:41] kenya consequently in the circumstance the management made use of the existing option of paying the [2:08:48] financier through the county development account and the process has been seamless in addition the county [2:08:55] government occupied the main headquarters block to ensure continuity of service delivery while works on [2:09:02] the amphitheater landscaping and final finishes were still ongoing the works are now completed further [2:09:09] occupational safety and health certification was not available at the time of the audit because it was in [2:09:15] the custody of the contractor who later released it to the county officers and submitted for audit [2:09:21] verification chairman we have attached appendices 21a which is the completion certificate and photographic [2:09:31] evidence of the completed headquarter and auxiliary facilities occupational health and safety certification and [2:09:38] correspondence correspondences on opening of the special purpose account thank you chair in your in your [2:09:52] first paragraph paragraph on your response you indicated that the process told due to delayed approval by the [2:09:59] permanent secretary for the national treasury as was directed by the central bank of kenya what approval [2:10:05] were you requiring from the permanent secretary for the national treasury um if you look at the appendices [2:10:15] chair when we wrote to the central bank for purposes of opening a special purpose account in 21c [2:10:25] um as is usually the procedure the central bank wrote back and the letter is attached there citing provisions of the constitution and asking that for us to open this account they needed a no objection from the principal secretary for the national treasury after which we wrote to the principal [2:10:51] secretary for national treasury and we have followed up physically as well but we have not been able to receive the feedback [2:11:02] to allow us to allow us to open that special purpose account was that a condition precedent the approval of the national treasury [2:11:15] um chair when we were doing our homer bay county infrastructure financing uh fund bill and law we sought advice from the controller of budget and from the national treasury and they gave us the requisite approvals [2:11:32] the financing act but in the financing act the fund act it indicates that we need to open a special purpose account [2:11:42] that money for this particular project moves from our crf to that special purpose account to be accessed [2:11:48] by by cpf so uh when we wrote to central bank to open the account they referred us back to national treasury and we wrote back to national treasury and they have not [2:11:59] been able to give us that clearance the money that you paid how did this move from crf to uh to be accessed [2:12:07] by um cpf so so what we have been paying now is directly from the crf to cpf without it passing through the [2:12:16] special purpose account yeah governor before we go there there's a letter from you i think uh [2:12:23] solomon obiel to the principal secretary uh dated june 18th 2024 first i have a problem with the timing of [2:12:33] that letter because i'm sure work had already begun on that uh project you are requesting for an objection [2:12:40] when you are almost done with the project but uh where is the response from treasury from the ps of [2:12:47] treasury did you ever receive a response from them not on the opening of the account even though [2:12:57] earlier on when we were doing the act itself they had responded to give us consent to proceed [2:13:04] um where is that correspondence because what you are calling a delay in my view is a denial [2:13:12] no the the correspondence for purposes of the act is separate but since that was not in the query [2:13:20] what was being queried was delay in opening of the special purpose account and so we i only bring it [2:13:27] up because you're the one who has attached this correspondence we just like uh the letter from [2:13:33] the central bank gives the reasons why you cannot proceed without certain things i want to know the [2:13:39] reasoning of treasury and it's quite strange that even homo bay cannot get a letter of no objection from [2:13:47] treasury and here um order orders i am just i'm baffled remember we are one thing yes we are one thing [2:13:57] but i'm just wondering if there are people who should get letters quickly from treasury it's people [2:14:01] of homo bay and i think as long as it's lawful there shouldn't be a problem that's the point of making [2:14:06] chair what the response talks about is a delay but it is possible that it is a denial because there's a [2:14:12] problem with this kind of arrangement that's what i'm driving it can we can we establish some things [2:14:17] also so that we base it on facts auditor general you are saying that the county government entered into [2:14:24] an agreement a tenant purchase agreement on the 6th of may 2024 is that a fact on the 6th of may 2024 [2:14:34] yes yeah the request for account opening on the 27th of may 2024 that's why i was asking whether the [2:14:41] establishment of the fund was a condition precedent to execution of the contract so it appears as if [2:14:49] this was done after the contract had already been signed chair the fund and the account the fund law [2:14:58] and the special purpose account are two separate issues because what was precedent for us to enter into [2:15:07] this arrangement was that we needed to have a law to underpin the to underpin uh the model of financing [2:15:17] that we had entered entered into with cpf which we did and we received approvals from treasury and we [2:15:24] received approvals from the controller of budget and uh that was resolved the approval was on the law [2:15:32] to proceed with the law but on the tps itself yes was there an was there correspondence to seek [2:15:41] the views of treasury on the tenant purchase scheme that was executed on 6th of may 2024 that was now [2:15:50] supported by the law what's a link between the tps and the law so that we understand you you may have more [2:15:58] information i think what what's the relationship the county attorney can elaborate but the law gives us [2:16:05] the framework under which to proceed in the process that we did but that's like that's what let's get [2:16:12] that nexus yeah so that even if you are arguing over the fund and accounts we know that there's a [2:16:18] relationship between the two and if this tps is eased on that law i thank you very much uh chair and [2:16:27] honorable members uh chair the law that uh for record purposes and hands on purposes just reintroduce [2:16:34] yourself my name is frederick orego county attorney uh chair we are making reference to the homerby [2:16:41] county infrastructure financing fund act number eight of 2023 and the area that uh you are making a [2:16:49] question in respect of will be section nine of that legislation and it says uh eligible there is [2:16:56] section nine eligible infrastructure projects may be financed through any of the following means a [2:17:03] tenant purchase scheme b finance leases or operating lease or lease to own c annuities b fees and levies [2:17:11] paid by users and beneficiaries as approved by the county assembly e income shares contract and f [2:17:18] any other lawful means that is not considered as borrowing under kenyan law so that is section nine [2:17:23] of our legislation and the tenant purchase scheme is the one under nine a thank you very much is there [2:17:29] are you saying there's absence of national legislation to govern loans and guarantees and annuities and [2:17:35] tenant purchase schemes such that you enacted legislation because there was no national legislation [2:17:44] the legislation that we are referring to is the one that i have read no no no i'm asking you as the [2:17:50] county attorney yes because we have heard this conversation earlier on the uh facility financing [2:17:56] that where there is national legislation that has taken care of a matter county legislation cannot try to [2:18:04] rewrite it so i'm asking in the pfm act pfm regulations even in the constitution are there provisions [2:18:12] that would govern how counties execute contracts like tenant purchase schemes and and chair just as it [2:18:20] takes that question uh wakili there is a proviso you've read at the end there unfortunately i don't [2:18:24] have the benefit of a copy of that legislation just that proviso at the end that talks about [2:18:33] things that are not considered borrowing is it my understanding that the things that you've listed [2:18:38] prior to that proviso are not considered borrowing yes actually the intention is to expressly exclude [2:18:47] borrowing and in fact uh chairman the question that you've asked as to why we have come to [2:18:53] this legislation is because we relied on article 207 2a that allows a county government to set up [2:19:06] legislation to allow for a charge on the crf just a minute i will kill you yes let's go slowly totally [2:19:15] you are saying the things you've read for us up yes including a tenant purchase scheme is not considered [2:19:22] borrowing i'm saying that the things that we have provided for in our legislation for 2023 the intention [2:19:33] was to expressly exclude borrowing why because if you look at the constitution when you're talking about [2:19:41] borrowing then you'll have to go to article 212 which allows for borrowing of counties if there is [2:19:49] legislation by the parliament so in what we relied on was article 207 2a of the constitution which then [2:19:59] was the legal constitutional basis for us to come up with this legislation and listed all those items [2:20:05] that are bred under section nine of this luckily that section you're referring to empowers you to [2:20:12] establish funds and that's okay i think there's something reasonably excluded that's okay but the [2:20:19] constitution is not silent in article 212 it says a county government may borrow only if the national [2:20:27] government guarantees the loan the question we have on the table did you take a loan is a tenant purchase [2:20:36] scheme alone no it's not about the fact is a tps alone for example i have a tps with nssf they charge [2:20:48] an interest over 15 years what i pay at the end of 15 years i'll own the building is that a loan yes i [2:20:58] have been forced to take mortgage insurance over it would i take mortgage insurance if it wasn't a loan [2:21:05] so can we then define this animal we have is it a loan yeah and and chair just to be clear because [2:21:12] sometimes things get lost in semantics they are very basic ingredients of a loan correct number one [2:21:19] if the money building that house is not yours it belongs to someone else and you have to repay it [2:21:25] by whatever arrangement that's the basic definition of a loan so how can we be arguing on whether [2:21:33] and there's an interest charge on it it's not your money you've taken it from someplace else you are given [2:21:38] opportunity to repay in installments there is an interest that is charged on it if that is not a [2:21:43] loan in homer bay i don't know where the the borders of homer bay are right here because once you cross [2:21:49] this side that's a loan look uh governor and you see this is an extremely important point not just for [2:21:56] homer bay the rest of the 46 counties have got serious infrastructural gaps we went to mombasa they [2:22:04] need 1.1 billion to build a stadium if this is the right route we will tell mombasa go to cpf [2:22:11] uh do that thing because it's within the law you go to every other county there's an infrastructural [2:22:19] gap so we must agree on the legal constitutional basis of this approach and if you all agree this [2:22:25] is a way to go i think we'll advise other counties to come and benchmark in uh homer bay so let's not [2:22:32] talk about the fund treasury what is this alone chairman the answer is no this is a charge under article [2:22:39] 207 2a of the constitution what do you what what what do you just expound that a little bit because [2:22:48] as we said that the the framers of the constitution decided to introduce article 212 for good reason [2:22:55] yes uh and and that's what you are saying uh chairman when we were coming up with this legislation we [2:23:01] consulted quite a bit and uh the consultation was yeah i think we are getting lost in semantics and time is [2:23:09] running the charge and alone are the same thing what does he mean by it is not alone it is a loan [2:23:15] because if the the bill that has been attached in annex 21a the cpf is indicating that they have used [2:23:24] 820 million kenya shillings so you must pay with an interest because if i even as we take a charge in [2:23:32] our mortgage in parliament and we pay three percent interest and governor wanger was a member of [2:23:38] parliament here and i don't know whether she took the mortgage maybe she's better off now but the [2:23:44] point i'm trying to make is this cannot be money where you want to cpf they give you 820 million then [2:23:50] you return 820 million is that what wakili is telling us a chair um okay uh wakili just take the [2:23:57] uh questions from the senators uh thank you chair and i'm not finished can i finish just one okay okay [2:24:06] in a minute when you look at the two things i need here the agreement that they signed between cpf [2:24:12] and the county and then how are they intending to repay is it securitization of the revenue or what how [2:24:20] are they intending to repay these amount i yield back to you senate on board you know chair um the [2:24:27] beauty of it is that uh our friend uh the governor um when i look at our records she was an effective [2:24:38] chair of the finance committee in in parliament so definitely she understands if there is a difference [2:24:46] between a charge and the loan the thing that chair i want to get clearly from the attorney so that [2:24:51] we don't we don't we don't really get lost in semantics whose money has been used to put up the [2:25:01] facility where's the attorney i can i can take that yeah yeah okay so so you take a number of them [2:25:11] whose money has been used to to build the facility secondly is there a repayment of that money is there [2:25:22] going to be a repayment of that money and thirdly is there an interest to be paid on the money that [2:25:32] has been used now if if then the response is that somebody else's money has been used to put up the [2:25:41] facility and that the county government of omar bay will have to repay that money over a period of time [2:25:50] and there is an interest that is going to be charged on that money then then then chair it doesn't [2:25:58] matter what you call that thing it's a loan that's what it is for me chair okay senator maruma yeah [2:26:07] the tps was anchored on the law called homer bay county infrastructure financing financing fund um how is [2:26:17] it possible to execute it without opening the spa the special purpose account because then ab initio [2:26:28] the tps started without following the law um i was trying to find the provision that establishes the [2:26:38] central bank but on this controversy i think we can all agree that the central bank as a chief bank of [2:26:46] government and the one that sets policy for everyone else to follow should be the guide [2:26:51] uh chair on what should have happened in this particular case in fact instead of [2:26:56] stressing the county attorney there the letter from the central bank dated june 11 2024 is for me [2:27:03] instructive honorable chair if you go to actually both paragraphs but i just want you to take note of [2:27:10] what the central bank is saying at paragraph two that further as a standard practice counties and indeed [2:27:16] all the public entities at all levels of government requesting cbk to open special program [2:27:21] accounts usually obtain and submit a very specific no objection letter from the national treasury to [2:27:27] operate those specified fund accounts and the county having been properly guided by the central bank [2:27:32] honorable chair they needed to comply with those directives and i i don't think because i have not [2:27:40] seen the correspondence from from treasury what i suspect on which here is if that correspondence exists [2:27:47] they would have been given the same guidance that you have given that such arrangements require the [2:27:53] guarantee of the national government and that's why probably that letter is not here okay we can [2:27:58] allow the governor to respond to the various issues and we can make them quick fire responses because [2:28:07] we are supposed to be out of here in another 10 minutes uh thank you very much i think senator mambua asked uh [2:28:13] uh whose money uh was used for these purposes this is uh county pensions uh uh money uh so our pensions [2:28:23] kept by cpf coming back to invest as pensions do across uh the world um is there repayment yes we make a monthly [2:28:33] um payment to the county pensions fund now not passing through the special purpose account uh because [2:28:43] we have not been able to open it yet but directly um to cpf is there a cost of money yes there is a cost of [2:28:52] money embedded within the 820 million uh just to be specific is there an interest that's what you are [2:29:01] calling cost of money and what is it the the amount that we are paying as tenant purchase we are paying [2:29:10] the 820 a million so every uh amount has been worked in within that so how much how much of that is [2:29:19] interest because you know the conventional tps is that you get a purchase price but because you're paying [2:29:25] over a period of time and interest is livid this seems to be the other way around so the purchase price [2:29:32] for this the purchase price for this uh office is 820 what is that what what is the annual interest [2:29:39] no that is what we pay to to cpf oh if you want so in the 820 how much is interest within the 820 [2:29:45] chair it would just we are occupying a building done by cpf we pay them an amount every month that [2:29:53] will amount to 820 million a chair if you want to know what the interest is you just minus the cost of [2:29:58] the project the cost of the actual construction from the payment 820 so i thought i saw a figure [2:30:05] somewhere of the the total cost of the project was how much not what you're paying it's 820 the cost of [2:30:10] the construction governor you know how you are very clear on how much it costs to build a two-door [2:30:15] toilet in kaksingri how much does it take to put up that office block minus what you're paying or minus [2:30:22] from what you're paying we will get the figure of interest correct it's that simple okay like the [2:30:28] court chairman through you the contract that was ink and paper what was spent between um cpf and [2:30:37] account what was the figure 820 820 yes so chairman maybe what i could say is um because the the issue [2:30:49] we were responding to raised by the auditor was the issue of uh this i want to assure this committee [2:32:00] number one that every procurement law applicable was followed in this case in this case uh what was [2:32:08] the procedure just for our we advertised for it and i think the procurement people will detail the [2:32:15] process they are here can they just describe it quickly and chair i think the bottom line riding on [2:32:21] your question is we want the specific amount that was used for the main headquarters building just [2:32:28] specific if it is 300 million of one apart from explaining the process because if we get that [2:32:36] as someone who come from homer bay i know the building exists the building is there so it's not [2:32:43] a hypothetical thing however we have a responsibility to advise 46 other county governments correct and that's [2:32:50] why we must establish the constitutionality and the legality and how procedural this is no we are [2:32:55] chair we are not doubting the the building i know what it is so the issue is i know who opened it so [2:33:03] the issue is the legality of the process you must have been present at the opening [2:33:11] personally i suspect that there is absolutely no way that the county government of homer bay cannot know [2:33:20] the amount of money that was put in that structure it's not possible i remember getting into an uh [2:33:25] an argument with one of the other governors who came here i think she was talking about a hospital [2:33:30] that was being built i think it was or something like that and they were saying even the bqs there is [2:33:38] someone in this team who has seen the bqs of that hospital and they know exactly how much but because [2:33:43] there is a cost of financing uh governor so that if if the procurement laws were followed then you [2:33:49] should have been telling the senate and the people of homer bay this is the best deal we could get [2:33:52] you in terms of the cost of financing vis-a-vis the building that we are getting someone in that team [2:33:57] has that answer i think the governor referred to the procurement team who's the head of procurement [2:34:02] could you tell us did you do a professional opinion on this and um what just go on record introduce [2:34:09] yourself were you in the room when when so do you even know what you're talking about i've been [2:34:20] i've been keenly following so i know what uh okay just following on there just introduce yourself yeah [2:34:26] thank you honorable chair and the honorable senator my name is peter diango and the procurement of the [2:34:30] county member kissm 66721 so kindly ask the question but you said you have been following what [2:34:38] question did you come to answer until i reach the door no no no no no is more governor our county is [2:34:49] more serious than this now the question was the tenant purchase agreement for the 820 million county [2:34:58] headquarters which procurement procedure was followed uh the procurement act we have several procurement [2:35:07] methods and uh you tell us just tell us the one that was followed because we must be out of here [2:35:13] in five minutes we used an open tender method and then what we are doing is to do tenant purchase [2:35:20] and uh the program the procurement act also allows for lease and even tps don't tell us what the law [2:35:26] says it's in black and white just tell us what you did we used an open tender method okay yes open [2:35:33] tender there were advertisements yes there were how many applicants uh respondents during uh pretend [2:35:40] aside visit there are five but the final submission was done by one tender which is and you did a [2:35:45] professional opinion on that yes and that is all on record yes what about as you tendered what was [2:35:52] the indicative cost of the project because you must know the cost of the project then people bid [2:35:58] and then take the lowest bidder but that bidder cannot be lower than the cost of that project [2:36:03] issue cost which was uh uh floated by the tender was over 100 million but uh since the tender was one [2:36:11] we went and negotiated and came back to it 20 million members we have 10 minutes to go to the house [2:36:21] yes on that one yes on that one uh it was it was um the gentleman belongs to a professional body i even [2:36:28] heard him um telling other membership number how is it that you do an estimate for the construction of [2:36:41] the facility and according to you the person is floating the tender the cost is 900 million then because [2:36:53] there is only one responsive uh tenderer you you sit down and reduce the cost of the project [2:37:01] you negotiate downwards what did you eliminate from the project that those are details honorable [2:37:09] sir honorable member but we have minutes to that effect so that we were is that the way it works [2:37:14] here i thought i thought he said i thought he said that there was only one the final person yes [2:37:20] quoted 900 yes but you revised it down to 820 yes but what was your bq we did not have a bq because [2:37:29] what you wanted so you took anything that was available in the market honorable chair wish you [2:37:34] could listen to me when you want when you want to purchase a space even here you only give the [2:37:41] specification of what you want i want a room this measurement and the chair just on a point of order [2:37:47] looking at time we are not in a classroom just answer specific question is it's going well said no no [2:37:54] no no we we we we love expressing our english so just understand my friend but looking at time and [2:38:01] english it doesn't add up so the point i'm trying to i'm trying is we are we can release the chair [2:38:08] you have asked a question was there a bq no he was explaining something and we have follow-up [2:38:13] questions i think you allow him to proceed okay please uh i'll give you three minutes here we like to [2:38:18] give people enough room to hang themselves what what we have done in the document is that we wanted [2:38:24] an office block it's in the simple terms we wanted us somewhere to sit like this room so we give [2:38:29] specification of what you want then the owner of the the room will give their price what they have what [2:38:36] they can offer so we had specification was of exactly what we needed and that's what we had put in [2:38:41] the tender document did you have a budget because the budget then drives the kind of stuff you're looking [2:38:46] for here in nairobi you can decide to sit at delta you can decide to sit in lovington or you can decide [2:38:52] to sit on river road yes depending on your budget yes so when you went to market what was your budget [2:38:58] also chair because when you're building a county headquarters you're essentially looking for a space [2:39:03] that can accommodate the county executive you know your staff establishment the sort of numbers of the [2:39:08] people that you need you can't just say you're looking for a space to sit because the ultimate [2:39:12] uh intention from what i gather is to have one central place where the entire county government [2:39:18] is so that cannot be something that is left to the tenant purchase service provider that i'm looking [2:39:25] for a three-bedroom house and then he tells me he has a two-bedroom in buru buru [2:39:29] maybe before he answers that particular question the county secretary was at the forefront of providing [2:39:36] it was a very detailed process maybe we haven't expressed it well enough because of the magnitude [2:39:43] of the project we wanted to cover every ground so i i i want to ask the county secretary on the [2:39:50] question that senator is asking around the issue of did we just go and say we want a space because i [2:39:56] remember we had several meetings with officers departments cabinet everybody county secretary just on [2:40:04] that specific one um county secretary uh just in two minutes the professor thank you chair um uh what [2:40:15] we did first was to assess the number of people that you need to occupy this space and we looked at all [2:40:20] those who are need to sit at the headquarters we are not including those who are sitting at the [2:40:24] some counties and then from there we knew also different cadres officers we have the ccms we have the [2:40:31] chief officers we have the directors and we gave very specific uh instruction on what a director [2:40:38] you know office need to look like what cc office need to look at and based on this we counted all the [2:40:44] spaces that are are required plus the number of people who are required that's what we put in the tender [2:40:50] but in your mind you didn't have because if you have all those specifications then you cannot fail to [2:40:56] have a cost specification for for money go to the chief officer sorry this is here but mine was to [2:41:05] how many people need to sit there what type of space that they they need and from there we could do [2:41:09] the estimates members members i think i think also for for neatness of this for neatness of this we must [2:41:17] set up a separate meeting and also the county pension fund must be here yeah we must set up a separate [2:41:23] meeting because um we might come to conclusions without interrogating all the facets we must look at [2:41:32] the legality and the constitutionality of this approach and we must also look at the procurement [2:41:39] elements and we must thoroughly test this model such that if we find it to be lawful and constitutional [2:41:47] and prudent we can make a recommendation to other counties to follow the same model i believe we it [2:41:55] will be better off as a senate or the people of homer bay will be better off if you have a proper detailed [2:42:02] inquiry where the procurement officer is not just talking off the cuff he's talking on the basis of [2:42:09] professional documents professional opinion and procedures that were there too i i don't know what you [2:42:14] feel and chair you know when i looked at the profile of the county secretary is a professor [2:42:21] an engineer i thought that should be more detailed but then time doesn't allow really we start with [2:42:26] the architectural design then engineers estimates and everything i thought would give us that [2:42:31] but as chair you rule that let's have opportunity to give the county government enough time to [2:42:38] explain this model because then that can be given to other counties to also use to have the [2:42:48] infrastructure in place yeah if if time was on our side would have spent more time on it but [2:42:53] the county pension fund they should be here and also the issue of repayment because that has not [2:43:00] been answered chair and also you asked something around securitization of revenue and now that payment [2:43:06] will be done and there i have seen the report also of health and occupation it is just one page so i don't [2:43:14] know there is a principle of uh where is it come out i've seen the department that approve occupation is [2:43:23] a part of the departments in the county so maybe those are questions we can further inquire into so [2:43:29] that when um becomes the governor you can borrow this model senator and your position with me becoming [2:43:37] governor is now i don't know so so chair i i think i think um first of all we must also governor governor [2:43:47] gladys you know these are 2023 arrangement if if i got it right um personally from where i sit i i must [2:43:57] give it to you that between 2023 and 2026 and 25 you have a block i mean let's let's begin from there [2:44:07] yeah there are counties like some that are seated next to me that started that started their projects [2:44:18] you know you can't compare i'm sorry to say i thought sifuna is also sitting [2:44:23] i don't know why you're jittery don't don't compare by the way credit to you know if you go to [2:44:30] nyamira we started our county headquarters in 2013 we have spent close to what she has spent but we have [2:44:37] nothing so i i'm just sitting here and that's why if this is the right model we can export by the way [2:44:45] this gentleman the lawyer should read the have you taken the floor from me should read you know if you [2:44:51] read if you read how united states acquired luciana it was purchased by thomas jefferson in 1803 [2:45:00] and he was faced with what i had the gentleman trying to explain the strict or liberal interpretation of [2:45:06] the constitution because jefferson needed to someone congress to authorize his borrowing but he thought [2:45:13] because america needed to acquire that territory and river mississippi he bought the territory and [2:45:19] so to explain to congress what he did later i think that's what governor has done so let's say if [2:45:26] if i i i i i thought he was being helpful if you know if if in all fairness you know if you pick the [2:45:40] case of omar bay and the case of nyamira if if the case of cpf can work the way it has worked yeah it [2:45:48] can deliver an office within six months i'd rather go this route then go through what is happening in [2:45:54] nyamira we don't have county headquarters we are housed by the county uh i mean how do you call [2:46:02] the okay the provincial administration then account commission that's where we're housed [2:46:07] take back your your mic so i agree with you that let's let's interrogate let's interrogate this all [2:46:14] angles if cpf can deliver within six months i'll pick that model that's okay now what what we say after [2:46:21] this may not get the record because it's already uh 2 30. so so i i was trying to say governor for [2:46:30] for bringing up that facility within that period of time and it's there you know it's not a ghost [2:46:35] it's there it's a facility i think for that really you must be commended but then you know there is a [2:46:42] process and it will be very good for you to to come at some point and talk to us as a senate on [2:46:52] that process that you used and see whether that process can also be used in other counties [2:47:01] yamira is talking yeah if none starts to speak you will hear very interesting things um but but [2:47:08] but really we must all stick to the law you know there's a law and the law must be followed [2:47:13] so chair let's find time to engage on this issue even for me where is it if this is a model that can be [2:47:20] can be used uh when i become what senator always keeps saying i will become then i can use this model [2:47:28] to do a lot of things a lot of things so let's let's be sure that we are on the right side of this yeah [2:47:35] unlocking domestic resources particularly from pension funds it's a big conversation even in the [2:47:40] global arena a lot of pension fund money sits idle and we can be creative around it but as we said it [2:47:47] must be in compliance with the law um now do we agree that this is an important matter that goes [2:47:55] beyond homer bay county that would require us to have a conversation find out from treasury why they [2:48:02] didn't give the no objection letter find out from cpf their perspective of the matter and also from the [2:48:10] county government of homer bay and if there's any other county government yeah article 201 article 212 [2:48:17] and and all those things this requires a separate inquiry we have dealt with just a few of the issues [2:48:25] that were in the report there were one or two other things that we would have dealt with if time [2:48:30] allowed we would have wanted to look at your own source revenue report which is fairly good compared [2:48:38] to other counties we would have wanted to find out the measures you're putting in place to deal with [2:48:45] the 55 percent that you're paying on hr and a few other residual matters we will advise on how we'll deal [2:48:53] with those matters because i know the auditors are almost coming for the in-year audit i don't know [2:48:58] whether they're coming this month or uh next month this month we have already started some of the end [2:49:04] clients yes so so we'll advise you because some of these things can be within the scope of the audit [2:49:11] for 25 26 there are a number of prior year matters that we have not dealt with that are still outstanding [2:49:17] the projects the kigoto the animal feed project all that let's make sure that they don't get lost in [2:49:24] uh in your in your audit for 25 26 but this one on the on the on the tenant purchase scheme is something [2:49:32] that is topical that we must deal with even as the audit goes on honorable members any closing remarks or [2:49:41] we allow the governor to make closing remarks when i look at the time we are four minutes uh out of time [2:49:48] governor uh thank you very much uh chairman and honorable senators i want to thank you very much for [2:49:53] the discussions that we have had every time we come to the senate it's a learning experience on this [2:49:59] matter of the uh infrastructure financing uh from a county government perspective i think it is a matter [2:50:07] to be looked into uh further as i said there was a lot of detail that went in and even a lot of detail [2:50:13] after but there's always that external eye that looks which is the senate and i think if we have an [2:50:19] opportunity to have a conversation with cpf treasury and everybody else then we will see that we have a [2:50:26] big window right now many counties are in discussions with cpf to progress this model so if there are any [2:50:33] gaps i think it is important for us to have that conversation and be in agreement so that we progress in [2:50:39] a way that we know is is lawful and uh and uh covers every ground so uh but instead of pension funds just [2:50:50] sitting especially just sitting it is a very very good way to use it to do hospitals to do other major [2:50:58] infrastructure that you cannot do on the piecemeal money that we get every month thank you so much [2:51:03] chairman and the senators uh for having given us this time we are always available accountable and willing to [2:51:12] learn as we progress in this pfm space well i want to acknowledge the county assembly for doing the [2:51:21] right thing in terms of considering the audit reports we will look at your report as we also compile [2:51:27] ours and also the delegation that came with the governor i come from homer bay and i would never pray [2:51:34] for homer bay to fail i would always want homer bay to succeed even as i sit here as a chair of the [2:51:40] public accounts committee the questions we ask the inquiries we make are with a view to ensuring that [2:51:45] homer bay succeeds because if homer bay succeeds i also succeed if the county government of homer bay [2:51:53] fails there will be nobody to understand that i was at the senate and the governor was at the county [2:51:59] level so let's look at it as a partnership and let's look at senate as a place where perhaps there [2:52:05] could be sometimes hard questions but they're hard questions that allow you to reflect and allow you [2:52:11] to maybe adjust your sales or continue doing the right things that you are doing i hope that out of [2:52:18] this session there'll be one or two things that you'll go back and rectify but i also believe that my [2:52:24] colleagues could have picked one or two things that are happening in homer bay that those of us who wish to [2:52:30] be in the council of governors in the next year you could pick one or two things that is happening in [2:52:37] homer bay and use it as a template due to time um we shall leave it at that we wish you a safe journey [2:52:44] back home we shall communicate on when we will be having this conversation